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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
None of them had any relevance (well Neeb and Serral since Reynor and Clem were way too young to play) before 2017. Serral was someone I never heard of and the same for Neeb. Undeniably they all have great achievements but thrust them into the era predating 2015, and they will share the same fate as the rest of the foreigners. | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
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Blargh
United States2101 Posts
On May 29 2021 18:47 AzAlexZ wrote: Neeb and Serral's rise, as well as Reynor and Clem's are all post-KeSPA, so there needs to be a HUGE asterisk when you put them on the list. None of them had any relevance (well Neeb and Serral since Reynor and Clem were way too young to play) before 2017. Serral was someone I never heard of and the same for Neeb. Undeniably they all have great achievements but thrust them into the era predating 2015, and they will share the same fate as the rest of the foreigners. I feel that's incredibly unfair to Serral, who is really the only foreigner to ever be even considered "best in the world". Stephano had a moment of dominance for a year or so, but he was playing in almost exclusively western tournaments with only minor Korean participation. Serral has an incredibly strong track record (although a bit hard to compare online performances) against Koreans, as well as everyone else. Serral actually won a WCS Finals, won two years of GSL vs World, and pretty much never did worse than Ro8 in anything he participated in for 2+ years. I know the scene is way less competitive, but Serral (and Reynor) reached the very top of the field for sure. Naniwa at the time might have been solidly the best foreigner, but never once was he even in the running for best player, and he basically never won any premiere event. I recall a handful of very strong second places. | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On May 29 2021 19:47 Blargh wrote: I feel that's incredibly unfair to Serral, who is really the only foreigner to ever be even considered "best in the world". Stephano had a moment of dominance for a year or so, but he was playing in almost exclusively western tournaments with only minor Korean participation. Serral has an incredibly strong track record (although a bit hard to compare online performances) against Koreans, as well as everyone else. Serral actually won a WCS Finals, won two years of GSL vs World, and pretty much never did worse than Ro8 in anything he participated in for 2+ years. I know the scene is way less competitive, but Serral (and Reynor) reached the very top of the field for sure. Naniwa at the time might have been solidly the best foreigner, but never once was he even in the running for best player, and he basically never won any premiere event. I recall a handful of very strong second places. It is unfair, but that's just the reality. Post-kespa and Pre-kespa achievements are pretty much incomparable. | ||
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GoloSC2
710 Posts
On May 29 2021 20:55 DBooN wrote: It is unfair, but that's just the reality. Post-kespa and Pre-kespa achievements are pretty much incomparable. Do you actually mean pre-Kespa as in before Kespa switched from BroodWar to SC2? Because from browsing Liquipedia Stephano didn't have any success in tournaments where Kespa pros played as well (which is what this argument is about) | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On May 29 2021 20:55 DBooN wrote: It is unfair, but that's just the reality. Post-kespa and Pre-kespa achievements are pretty much incomparable. It's a massive massive stretch to say we can't at least make some statement of the form "literally winning a world finals is better than anything a foreigner did before". | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On May 29 2021 21:35 GoloSC2 wrote: Do you actually mean pre-Kespa as in before Kespa switched from BroodWar to SC2? Because from browsing Liquipedia Stephano didn't have any success in tournaments where Kespa pros played as well (which is what this argument is about) Ah, sorry for being inaccurate, for me it was about the death of Kespa teams and proleague. Before the Kespa switch, SC2 was already very competetive, much moreso than now (while of course a bit less than after the switch). In terms of serral vs stephano, there is a very solid argument for serral, but still in the end I think it's not really comparable, because of how completely different the scenes are. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15919 Posts
On May 30 2021 01:00 DBooN wrote: Ah, sorry for being inaccurate, for me it was about the death of Kespa teams and proleague. Before the Kespa switch, SC2 was already very competetive, much moreso than now (while of course a bit less than after the switch). In terms of serral vs stephano, there is a very solid argument for serral, but still in the end I think it's not really comparable, because of how completely different the scenes are. I disagree. Back in 2010-2012 the game was new and nobody knew how to play. Yes, there were a lot of players competing but the skill level was way lower than it is today. I don't thinkStephano winning back then was more impressive than Serral winning now. For the actual Kespa era from 2013-2016 I agree that having good results there is more impressive than having good results now but the only foreigners with success in that era were basically Snute and Scarlett whose achievements just don't compare to Serral/Reynor/Neeb so there's no debate there. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
They definitely knew less about the game, but I would say that only lasted to 2011, definitely not 2012. When looking at past games you need to understand the game itself was different. You might look at a game from the past and say "hey, they barely do any creep spread, they suck" but i'ts not that they didn't have the skill to do creepspread, it's not even that they didn't know creep was good for zerg. The reason was that queen sucked. You didn't want to have many of them. That is until they buffed them to be super strong and then zergs starting to use them to defend. And what do they do with so many queens when the enemy isn't atacking? Spread creep. Afterwards the queen was nerfed, but was still stronger than originally, and maps changed, making having vision that much more important. The only "jump" I can see in skill level was because of the KeSPA training regime, but even then it wasn't anywhere near as big of a jump as people thought (the infamous elephant in the room) because the eSF had already adopted a similar training regime since the start, they just didn't have as much money. Even though Artosis says the level of play right now is the highest, I don't agree. The fall of actual teamhouses affected the potential. We see great players, we see great plays, but most of it is because they are standing on the shoulder of giants, or are the giants themselves. It's well known Koreans don't practice as much anymore, and that is the only reason why foreigners can compete. The korean advantage was the training regime and teamhouses, without them you get good players but not the best. | ||
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JJH777
United States4400 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
On May 30 2021 04:12 Charoisaur wrote: I disagree. Back in 2010-2012 the game was new and nobody knew how to play. Yes, there were a lot of players competing but the skill level was way lower than it is today. I don't thinkStephano winning back then was more impressive than Serral winning now. For the actual Kespa era from 2013-2016 I agree that having good results there is more impressive than having good results now but the only foreigners with success in that era were basically Snute and Scarlett whose achievements just don't compare to Serral/Reynor/Neeb so there's no debate there. There was a large number of players that took the game very seriously. I'm not sure why everyone knowing less about the game would make it less competetive. Snute and Scarletts achievements can not compare to those of current foreigners, because they had to deal with a hundred koreans playing at a top level instead of 10 and I think it's impossible to predict how either players would perform in a different climate. | ||
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Hydro033
United States136 Posts
On May 30 2021 07:15 [Phantom] wrote: Even though Artosis says the level of play right now is the highest, I don't agree. He specifically says that skill has been improving, but it's improving more slowly than it would have if Kespa teamhouses were still around. I generally agree with that, and if you go back and watch game from 5 years ago, it's pretty obvious. But yea, the collapse of the teamhouses totally leveled the playing field, agreed on that point. The infrastructure is what Korea always had over the west. | ||
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