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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
HuK had "results" in the GSL around the same time as Jinro afaik, a bit after maybe. If I remember correctly, Huk's first GSL code S was my last GSL code S (when I lost to Nestea, if I remember correctly the group was me, San, nestea and clide. Won vs San, Clide beat Nestea, and I had basically only practiced TvP and TvT, expecting nestea to beat clide, and lost 0-2 vs nestea... I think). | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
i think this just shows that there were many incredibly good players throughout the years. for various reasons, said players decided to cut themselves off from the top-most competition. this neither submits new information nor expands upon it. some players would spent the entirety of 3 months to prepare for one of their best runs. other players were holding onto their monthly Code S seeding, occaisionally participating in tournaments that didn't overlap. it's very important to see that time and luck are very large factors. a starcraft player's influence combined with their results (relative strength) is what creates their 'legacy'. for example, [oops]reach is up there as legend status in the sc:bw scene even when his only achievements include an OSL victory over boxer, and a few other deep runs. if you were to ask people who they remembered the most out of all the foreign players out there, you'd have a pretty definitive and an extremely subjective list. this thread is a reminder of their achievements. rather, i'd like to see who the starcraft communities votes as the best. now that that era is basically over, it's much easier to do an accurate review. aggregated scores are typically bloated by the fact that not all the content is out at once. our thinning memory of the games, the tournaments and the importance of events is a worrying thing as well. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On December 27 2015 22:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote: If I remember correctly, Huk's first GSL code S was my last GSL code S (when I lost to Nestea, if I remember correctly the group was me, San, nestea and clide. Won vs San, Clide beat Nestea, and I had basically only practiced TvP and TvT, expecting nestea to beat clide, and lost 0-2 vs nestea... I think). http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_LG_Cinema_3D_Global_StarCraft_II_League_May/Code_S The season we found out InCa couldn't play PvZ. Though Game 5 of Nestea vs sC on Crossfire was one of the single best games of WoL. | ||
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Xoronius
Germany6362 Posts
On December 27 2015 20:54 nimdil wrote: To be fair I don't think it's easy to justify 10 foreigners over ThorZaIN. IdrA for a long time was top3 foreigner which this ranking is all about. He was arguably the best initially (although the scene was fragmented so who knows), then 2nd behind Jinro, then 2nd-3rd behind HuK/NaNi and then probably 4th behind Stephano HuK and Nani. Assuming my assessment is correct he was top foreigner for over a year. But perhaps this is blowing his results out of proportion due to lack of maturity of the scene. Still he should be top10 over i.e. Ret. Over Ret probably yes. But being a clear top foreigner is debatable. He mostly played MLG's, which had mostly the same opponents coming out of Europe: Socke, Naniwa, Sjow and the Liquid guys (Ret, Jinro, Haypro, TLO). Since he mostly outperformed these guys (except for Naniwa), it looked like he would be as ahead of the european scene as well. But the euros going to the MLG's were not neccesarily the best euros around. For example: Nerchio, Sase, HasuObs, Kas, ThorZaIN, Morrow and the mentioned Naniwa and Socke have all winning records against Idra. Dimaga has never played him. The other top euros, who Idra has a winning record against are MaNa (who is not neccesarily known for his PvZ), White-Ra and Happy. Seing that, I don't think Idra being better than for example Nerchio or DIMAGA, even at his prime, is a clear case. + Show Spoiler + GoOdy has a "winning record" against Idra as well, but since they only played one map, I choose to not include him int he list above | ||
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
On December 28 2015 06:46 Taf the Ghost wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_LG_Cinema_3D_Global_StarCraft_II_League_May/Code_S The season we found out InCa couldn't play PvZ. Though Game 5 of Nestea vs sC on Crossfire was one of the single best games of WoL. "sC" Please no more mention of that name ;( Remembering of what could be my favorite sc2 player is suffering. Also this ranking is topkek, there's only one foreign that matters and that will ever matter. fucking illyes. | ||
nimdil
Poland3746 Posts
On December 28 2015 06:47 Xoronius wrote: Over Ret probably yes. But being a clear top foreigner is debatable. He mostly played MLG's, which had mostly the same opponents coming out of Europe: Socke, Naniwa, Sjow and the Liquid guys (Ret, Jinro, Haypro, TLO). Since he mostly outperformed these guys (except for Naniwa), it looked like he would be as ahead of the european scene as well. But the euros going to the MLG's were not neccesarily the best euros around. For example: Nerchio, Sase, HasuObs, Kas, ThorZaIN, Morrow and the mentioned Naniwa and Socke have all winning records against Idra. Dimaga has never played him. The other top euros, who Idra has a winning record against are MaNa (who is not neccesarily known for his PvZ), White-Ra and Happy. Seing that, I don't think Idra being better than for example Nerchio or DIMAGA, even at his prime, is a clear case. + Show Spoiler + GoOdy has a "winning record" against Idra as well, but since they only played one map, I choose to not include him int he list above I'm not sure if all time records are that relevant. I don't think either SaSe, Hasu, Kas, Socke or Morrow should be over ThorZaIN. So the question that bothers me here is if not IdrA then who is in top10. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9335 Posts
On December 27 2015 22:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote: If I remember correctly, Huk's first GSL code S was my last GSL code S (when I lost to Nestea, if I remember correctly the group was me, San, nestea and clide. Won vs San, Clide beat Nestea, and I had basically only practiced TvP and TvT, expecting nestea to beat clide, and lost 0-2 vs nestea... I think). Here is an interesting question, during your peak where you won MLG, 2 GSL code semifinals and Idra 4-1 in a showmatch, whom would you rate above you, and were there any foreigners whom you would argue were comparable in skills to you (just never had the case to show it? | ||
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Miragee
8381 Posts
On December 25 2015 01:48 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Huk is a strong candidate for 3rd I'd say. Huk was always pretty overrated. | ||
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XiZeL
Switzerland92 Posts
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Xoronius
Germany6362 Posts
On December 28 2015 19:48 nimdil wrote: I'm not sure if all time records are that relevant. I don't think either SaSe, Hasu, Kas, Socke or Morrow should be over ThorZaIN. So the question that bothers me here is if not IdrA then who is in top10. They are relevant, since it were Idras results. You said, he was 2nd behind Jinro for a time, 2nd -3rd behind HuK-Nani and probably 4th behind Stephano, HuK and Nani. I say, if he constantly loses to Kas etc in that time, it isn't that clear that he ever was in these position. Why should we consider him superior to for example Nerchio, when he constantly loses against people, Nerchio constantly wins against. Why should we consider him superior to ThorZaIN, when ThorZaIN has better results and a better 2h2-score? Why should Idra be considered 2nd/2nd-3rd/4th in these respective timeframes? To be clear, I think Idra should be rated higher than Sase/Hasu/Kas/Socke and Morrow based on overall achievments, but having a large group of europeans, he couldn't beat in his prime is questioning his supposed top-2/3/4 position during that period. | ||
Poopi
France12741 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 28 2015 06:46 Taf the Ghost wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_LG_Cinema_3D_Global_StarCraft_II_League_May/Code_S The season we found out InCa couldn't play PvZ. Though Game 5 of Nestea vs sC on Crossfire was one of the single best games of WoL. I'm proud of my battle cruiser TvP build I used vs San there haha...... It was gimmicky tho, and frustrating to practice once the oGs tosses had seen it a few times. Less proud of my 'panic proxy rax' that Nestea predicted 100% ;d On December 28 2015 20:37 Hider wrote: Here is an interesting question, during your peak where you won MLG, 2 GSL code semifinals and Idra 4-1 in a showmatch, whom would you rate above you, and were there any foreigners whom you would argue were comparable in skills to you (just never had the case to show it? 4-2* vs IdrA (lost on Shakuras and Lost Temple, should have lost on Crevasse but 3-3 vs 1-1 too strong lol. If I lost the Crevasse game I think IdrA might have won that series because IIRC the last map was Tal'darim and I sucked on that map TvZ). Well, I didn't really get to play many foreigners because I 99% played KR server or privates with people in korea (mostly oGs guys). But for example one of the guys I practiced with vs Marineking was Select and we always had really close games, and Select in turn had close games with other top NA and EU players. I don't remember when TSL was exactly, and it was back in the very laggy days, but I did lose 1-2 to morrow (although the bastard baneling busted both wins lol) as well. And speaking of TSL, again, I dont remember when this was exactly but you obviously had Thorzain and Naniwa there who were already starting to be world beaters. My personal opinion at the time, though I didn't really know for sure since I never got to play with them, was that there were a lot of non-korean players on about my level or better. I used to look at a lot of Brat_OK, Strelok, Kas (am I forgetting anyone? the eastern european terrans basically) replays for inspiration. I think in terms of mechanics there were a tooooooooon better than me, I just had really good preparation for those two GSLs... really great practice environment, really great build input by Nazgul and the oGs coaches, just I was in a great environment to do what I did and winning MLG gave me the motivation to practice insanely hard for a few months. But I definitely always felt that my performance in those two events was WAY above my level, which is why I've always been thankful when people rate me highly on these lists, but never actually expected to be very high. TLDR: Mechanically I think there were a bunch of foreigners as good/better than me (I never played most of them so I can't say which for sure), I just had a very good environment to succeed and was supremely motivated. Oh and I obviously played idra a bunch of times on ladder and he'd usually win (no idea if he knows this since it was usually on my smurf). He was as good as any other top zerg at that time at the very least, on ladder... but tournaments he just wasn't as scary. Edit: actually, for the first gsl I think there were a lot of people as good or better but my 2nd run I think I was genuinely one of the very best in tvt and tvz at least. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Absolutely ridiculous edit: oh, if jinro is only 11th then this series is meaningless propaganda | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
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Eliezar
United States481 Posts
There is no doubt on my mind that the foreigners that really made a splash in the worldwide scene are Jinro, Idra, Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, and...yeah. There may have been others that were better, but these players actually achieved something against the Koreans in one way or another during their height. Jinro, Idra, Huk, and Naniwa all had 2 good runs in GSL if I remember correctly, Stephano revolutionized ZvP and had many good results outside of Korea. Huk won an MLG with Koreans and was the only foreigner to do so if I remember. Other players should get mentioned outside of them from Thorzain to Scarlett and let's say Lilbow, etc. But I cannot take seriously a discussion that takes the foreigner with the best period of any foreigner (2 GLS top 4s and MLG championship) and thinks they aren't in the top 5... | ||
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b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
At her prime she was the best foreigner ever in my book. | ||
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Xoronius
Germany6362 Posts
On December 30 2015 02:04 Eliezar wrote: I just don't know what to think about this. There is no doubt on my mind that the foreigners that really made a splash in the worldwide scene are Jinro, Idra, Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, and...yeah. There may have been others that were better, but these players actually achieved something against the Koreans in one way or another during their height. Jinro, Idra, Huk, and Naniwa all had 2 good runs in GSL if I remember correctly, Stephano revolutionized ZvP and had many good results outside of Korea. Huk won an MLG with Koreans and was the only foreigner to do so if I remember. Other players should get mentioned outside of them from Thorzain to Scarlett and let's say Lilbow, etc. But I cannot take seriously a discussion that takes the foreigner with the best period of any foreigner (2 GLS top 4s and MLG championship) and thinks they aren't in the top 5... I think you shouldn't define the quality of the ranking by Jinro's placement. Jinro has on one had the by far best result in one metric (GSL ro4; not only once but twice), but on the other hand, that is the only metric, you can arguably use to put him anywere near the top 5 (In earnings he is number 61 among foreigners for example). The MLG championship is not that big of a deal in terms of greatness, the only relevant people, he defeated there were Ret, Socke and TT1 (and maybe Painuser, if you want to count him). The championship runs of HuK (Against Julyzerg, MC, MKP, TheSTC and MC again at MLG Orlando, against Moon twice, Socke and Julyzerg at DH Summer), Naniwa (Nestea and Mvp at MLG GI), ThorZaIN (Against Sjow, Socke, Monster and Polt at DH Stockholm), Nerchio (against Snute, MC and Yonghwa twice at HSC 5), MaNa (against Titan, TargA, Stephano and ForGG at ESWC), Stephano (against various koreans in various tournaments), Snute (against Stephano, Symbol twice) and Sen(Bomber, Has and Hyun) were much harder. You could probably argue about Naama's DH Winter win (against TOP, MaNa, Darkforce), Heromarines 2014 EPS win (against Golden, Patience, Showtime) and a few others being harder than MLG Dallas 2010 as well, so that shouldn't be a major argument. Still, there are those Semifinals. Noone has repeated even one of those since (although Naniwa was within one map once) and it is likely, that noone will repeat them in the future either. So the question in ranking Jinro is: How much is that very short, but very high peak worth? For stuchiu, the answer is apperently: 12th place; for you it is apperently top 5, for me.... I don't even know myself tbh. The point I'm trying to make is, that Jinro is by far the most difficult to rank foreign player there is. For every other one, you find a majority of people that will agree that "xxx is better than yyy, but worse than zzz". The majority of people agrees, that Stephano and Naniwa belong into the top 4, Huk is regarded as definitly top 5-6, but not 1st and probably not 2nd, MaNa is genreally classified as top-10, but not top-4, Kas is definitly top-30, but likely not top 10, and so on... Placing Jinro there is no such general agreement. He is a total wildcard. On December 30 2015 04:51 b0ub0u wrote: Speaking of peak level. Don't you guys think that Scarlett would be #1? At her prime she was the best foreigner ever in my book. In my book, GoOdy has a 66,6% winrate against GSL champions offline, so he would be a strong candidate for #1, even disregarding the elimination of Nestea during TSL3. Our books may be incomplete, though. | ||
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ilikeredheads
Canada1995 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9335 Posts
4-2* vs IdrA (lost on Shakuras and Lost Temple, should have lost on Crevasse but 3-3 vs 1-1 too strong lol. If I lost the Crevasse game I think IdrA might have won that series because IIRC the last map was Tal'darim and I sucked on that map TvZ). I think another problem Idra had that series was that these new big maps hadn't been released on ladder yet, and he hadn't actually practiced them since he didn't have such an environment, whereas I am sure you did. Oh and I obviously played idra a bunch of times on ladder and he'd usually win (no idea if he knows this since it was usually on my smurf). He was as good as any other top zerg at that time at the very least, on ladder... but tournaments he just wasn't as scary. Yeh, Idra was really really good early WOL release. In my book he probably should have won season 1. I think he had a few margins going against him in the first 2-3 GSL's, and after that he quickly declined in skill. Well, I didn't really get to play many foreigners because I 99% played KR server or privates with people in korea (mostly oGs guys). But for example one of the guys I practiced with vs Marineking was Select and we always had really close games, and Select in turn had close games with other top NA and EU players. I think Select was also the arguably best ("foreign" - but can we really call him that? I mean I don't think as Polt as a foreigner) terran player for a short period. Terrible macro, but his unit control was really good. Before that - first 2 months of WOL - Morrow was the best foreigner. I think it would be interesting to see what had happened had he gone to Korea in 2010 and sticked to terran, because I remember him looking unstopable in all of the small European tournaments. As Zerg he was pretty bad for the first 6 months or so, which is pretty sad. I remember also watching and cheering for your games against MarineKing like a mad man. I wondered if you could expose his bio only playstyle. And while you did win G1 against him, I felt it was quite obvious that his mechanics were on a different level. Generally speaking, it semed to me you had extremely good builds/openings that often got you a lead and afterwards you had a decent sense of how to take it into a macrogameafterwards. And I guess that might have been why you had issues post 2011 as the game started being more about mechanics since people learned how to deal with most builds (?) | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
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