Making a list like this is always problematic. With nearly 5 years of gameplay there is a huge amount of information to parse. First, there is the prestige of tournaments: measuring and judging the value of specific tournaments—GSL as compared to international LANs—, tournament formats, and paths taken to the Championships. Next, the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats: the increased talent pool in modern times, the mass migration of KeSPA pros to LANs and WCS, and then the mass retirement of former KeSPA players and eSF players. Consistency over a long period of time compared to peak/clutch has often been considered one of the most important measures, but the player's effect on the game itself is equally important. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
It is inevitable that many will argue for or against the inclusion or exclusion of certain players in the overall top 15 depending on what criteria you’ve used to judge their placing. However, as there is no definitive list to argue for or against, this is my attempt to codify a list of the all time greatest foreigners by the end of Heart of the Swarm.
“The Dream has come true, but it isn’t over yet.” - Bunny (49 seconds in)
There is a dream that every fan and spectator has of competition. It is a fanciful dream, a passing dream, but you can’t help but think of it the second you see an amazing moment, an amazing game. It is that moment when you see Jinro defeat MC with mech to make it to the Ro8. It is that moment when you see HuK win DreamHack over Moon. It is that insane moment when you see NesTea just barely hold off sC’s unrelenting parade push by the skin of his teeth. It is seeing Mvp’s 11/11 fail in utter disaster, only to watch as Mvp finds the one path to victory anyway. In those games, in those moments, the average fan, the average spectator will sometimes think to themselves, “What if that was me?”
In Bunny’s case he probably told himself, “That could be me.”
On April 2012, Bunny, then known as dreambunny, joined his first SC2 team, Blast. Inch by inch, very slowly, very methodically, Bunny moved up the ladder as he started doing better and better at local tournaments like WCS 2012 Denmark and IesF 2012. When HotS opened, he broke free of the chains that had seemingly held him back and he qualified for his first WCS. I remember the run very vividly as he rained down hellbats from the sky and scorched the earth. The games that tournament, coupled with INnoVation’s own shenanigans, made me create a new metric to measure skill during that time called HPM (Hellbats Per Minute).
Bunny then called me out later at HSC saying that he used hellbats less than other Terrans (which was true as he had only used them in 50% of his games while the other Terrans at that event used them in nearly 70% of their games), but I took away two things from that interaction. The first was that this was a player who was acutely aware of his reputation because of his ambition. Even back then Bunny aimed to be the best foreigner. (The second I’ll get to when I talk about his playstyle.)
Nearly a year after that event, his work paid off as he broke through the ranks of the other foreigners and had the best results of his career. His title at Gfinity was welcome respite from Korean dominance, yet he would then best his strong 2014 in the coming year.
Bunny had risen from a spectator to an unknown player on an unknown team to one of if not the best foreigner on the world’s best foreign team in the span of 2 years. Bunny may have fulfilled his dream, but his dream has yet to end.
PlayStyle:
The first thing I thought of when I first saw Bunny drop hellbats was the Korean-ness of it. The general reputation of foreign Terrans is fairly weak. The majority of the great foreign players have either been Protoss or Zerg. The Terran players all had fatal flaws. Sjow couldn’t play TvP to save his life. Kas tried to brute force series wins the same way he brute forced the ladder. Happy had the mechanics, but was both too predictable and lacked killer instinct. LucifroN had the skills, but could never convert them into large wins. MajOr was, well, MajOr. Perhaps the most telling thing was that all of them except LucifroN had EU playstyles that generally avoided really aggressive moves (except in BiovZ matches) that aimed for the late game.
When I speak of a Korean Terran style, it is generally the style that follows standardized builds, reactions, attack timings and efficiency. It gives players opportunities to do damage and end the game in the mid-game, but it can easily transition to the late game without any kind of disadvantage (assuming the game is played out correctly). The meta for the Korean Terran has been decided generally by 1 man at a time. Early on, Jinro’s 3 base Terran macro changed the thinking of Korean Terrans in their approach. After that the majority of the meta of the standardized Terran came from Mvp all the way until INnoVation joined his first GSL in WoL. At which point the standard builds of Terran came from him.
This is all context for what I’m about to say next. In many ways Bunny’s play seemed to be inspired by INnoVation. This wouldn’t be that surprising in Korea as nearly every Terran (barring TY, Bbyong and Taeja) had in some way taken inspiration from INnoVation’s playstyle. However, what was surprising was that despite acknowledging the strength of Korean Terrans, very few foreigners have ever taken direct inspiration from them. (The only other in recent memory was LucifroN). Bunny is a very strong standard Terran which is actually a rarity in the historical context of foreign Terrans throughout SC2.
Difference between Bunny and LucifroN:
This was fairly simple. While LucifroN had always been touted as one of the best foreign players during his era (from the latter half of 2012 to early half of 2013), he was never able to live up to that potential the other pros and casters talked him up to. In the end he only got two major domestic results (3rd WCS EU, Ro8 WCS EU S1 2013) and never did well internationally (though in one case he was actually coin flipped out of the tournament in a triple tiebreak between him, YugiOh and Strelok). Bunny just out did him overall in results.
#14 | DIMAGA, Lightning Strikes Twice
Achievements:
Top 8 GSL WC
6th Blizzcon 2011
Top 4 WCS EU S1 2013
4th Blizzcon 2010
1st ASUS Rog 2011
2nd DH Summer 2012
3rd IEM Cologne 2010
Top 8 IEM Guangzhou
2nd IEM Kiev
Top 8 HSC IV
“There is something special about DIMAGA that I don’t feel from other players.” - NesTea
DIMAGA - Lightning strikes twice
DIMAGA felt more like a force of nature than a player at times. Completely unpredictable and mercurial, it was nearly impossible to ever determine DIMAGA's form in SC2 or how well he’d do on any given month. The only thing constant about him was his giant smile and his ability to enjoy almost every moment of the competition he was attending. He started off strong in the beta and got decent results early on in the first few tournaments, such as IEM Cologne and BlizzCon 2010. He’d then disappear for 6 months and go to Korea to break NesTea’s undefeated ZvZ streak, disappear for 4 months and then show up to win a tournament. He’d disappear again to only show up and eliminate Flash from DreamHack. He would show up wherever, whenever, and it would be hard to ever count him out because you never knew what you were going to get.
He was easily one of the best Ukrainian Zergs to have ever played, one of the few foreign BW players to have made the transition and be successful and one of the greatest foreigners to have played the game.
Playstyle:
The first time I heard anything about DIMAGA, it was that he had spent all night playing MorroW in custom games to prepare MorroW for his games vs Idra at IEM Cologne 2010. What was curious though was that DIMAGA was playing Terran and Morrow the Zerg. In those games DIMAGA taught MorroW the power of 3rax reaper and with it MorroW destroyed Idra in the finals. But the real winner wasn’t MorroW, but actually DIMAGA, as that inevitably made Blizzard nerf the reaper.
That little anecdote is in many ways symbolic of DIMAGA's playstyle. He was an extremely aggressive Zerg and while he didn’t have huge meta changing impacts on the game like Stephano or Snute, the builds and compositions he did make were really effective.
He was the first to use the 1 base baneling bust (something Life used at this past BlizzCon to try and take the title). At GSL World Championships, he and the other foreigners there created a weird 2 base ling/bling drop strategy. It failed at the tournament, but was then used to great effect by JulyZerg later and Rogue nearly 4 years after that. Perhaps he was most famous for constantly making new variations of the baneling bust build off 1 base, 1.5 bases, 2 bases, 2 bases and an empty 3rd hatch and 3 bases. In ZvZ he was also the first one to use the mass queens/roaches/nydus build to shut down muta builds in ZvZ. A unique Zerg by any standards.
The difference between DIMAGA and Bunny:
While Bunny arguably had a higher consistent peak, it only lasted about 1 year. Whereas DIMAGA has had about 2.5 years of relevant play and overall more results. Fairly straightforward.
#13 | Lilbow, The Burden of the Crown
Achievements:
2nd WCS S2 2015
1st WCS S3 2015
Nerves never end. You could be a career veteran, one of the greatest champions of all time, but once you get in that booth, once you start playing, the pressure is on. For most people (Not named Life, sOs or Taeja, none of whom seem to give a fuck), the best they can do is get used to the pressure, to deal with it and not let it affect them too much. But it is always there, always looming in the background. Even players like Flash and Jaedong, both considered to be the two greatest champions to have ever played in BW have fallen to nerves multiples times during their careers in SC2. Flash could never close out a series in the Ro16, even when he was a heavy favorite to get out of the group. Jaedong lost nearly every finals he played in during his SC2 career.
In Lilbow’s case he attained the crown of best foreigner after getting to two consecutive finals in WCS, the most important league outside of Korea. He defeated Bunny in ritual combat to solidify his place as the best foreigner and then lost to Hydra during the finals. The season after that beat Hydra in the round of 8 to get his revenge and beat MaNa to become the first ever foreign WCS Champion. And now all eyes are on him.
You can ask nearly any foreigner who eventually became the best foreigner in the world at some point. The pressure is of a different kind. You no longer represent yourself or your country, but the entire world. Being the foreign hope is both a blessing and a curse. Gaining that title makes you an icon in the SC2 world, the player everyone looks up to as the one that can fight against the Koreans. It is also a burden, one that at times feels impossible to fulfill and hold up for long. With Lilbow’s disastrous showing at BlizzCon, all eyes will now be on him to see whether he succeeds in his attempt to become the greatest foreigner or be crushed under its weight.
Playstyle:
Unlike the other players on this list, LIlbow is fairly recent so it’s hard to pin down what makes him excellent as a player. What I can say is that his two WCS runs were based on his decisiveness, his clean build orders and clean stalker micro.
Difference between Lilbow and DIMAGA:
LilBow's accomplishments aren't that different from Bunny. In terms of consistency, Bunny's time at the peak was arguably longer (as this list ends at the end of HotS). DIMAGA's consistency is even better than that, but Lilbow's peak of getting into 2 consecutive WCS Finals and winning one was just enough to get past their overall achievements and place him here.
#12 | Jinro, At the Apex
“The problem I think was that I was satisfied with my showing. If I had the hunger, the fire I could have maybe gotten to that finals.” - Jinro on his GSL Ro4 placings.
Achievements:
1st MLG Dallas
Ro4 GSL Open 3
Ro4 GSL Jan. 2011
When ranking players in general, one of the qualifications is strength relative to one's time. In Jinro’s case he was unarguable one of the Top 10 players from his qualification into his first GSL all the way till his Ro16 in GSL March. In that sense there are very few foreigners that could match what he accomplished. The problem was that this is an overall ranking that not only takes into account relative strength to the scene they played in, but also measures and balances the runs they had, their achievements, time of consistency, peak of consistency, innovation, refinement, adversity, the metas they played in and various x factors. I took a holistic view of what it means to be the greatest in every aspect and though Jinro was, relative to his time, one of the great players of that era, that small time span could not overtake what numerous other foreigners did across the next 5 years.
Playstyle:
Jinro was probably the first Terran player to realistically and seriously try to make 3 base macro play work. He was met with frustration multiple times, but after mixing it up, he eventually flourished and his builds and plays did have an intangible effect on the Terran race moving forward. Another aspect of his play was he always had very cute/niche openers that were clever and gave him a bit of extra strength to his builds if he got them off the ground.
Difference between Jinro and Lilbow:
Both their times spent at the top were roughly the same. The big difference between them was that Jinro did it in the hardest region in the world while Lilbow did it in WCS. Yes, that even accounts for the increased difficulty of play nearly 4 years later. In the end, Jinro’s peak was better than Lilbow’s peak so far and he had a big impact on the way Terran was played, whereas Lilbow did not do as much for Protoss. Lilbow will conceivably overtake Jinro should he remain consistent in 2016.
#11 | ThorZaIN, Crashed through the Door
Achievements
1st TSL 3
Top 2 DH Valencia 2011
Top 4 NASL 2
1st DH Stockholm 2012
Top 8 DH Winter 2012
3rd EU Battle.net Invitational
“I made a rule for myself when I practice with Koreans. I wouldn’t stop playing until they stopped.” - on Lo3
I do not believe any foreigner will ever make as large an impact in their debut match as ThorZaIN did in his. The circumstances surrounding his initial debut were too strange to be recreated again. The Korean and the foreign worlds were basically split at the beginning of SC2 with only Jinro and Idra really crossing. ThorZaIN was seeded into the bracket against Fruitdealer, the first GSL Champion, and was, at the time, still considered one of the best Zergs on the planet. ThorZaIN deliberately decided to avoid all online cups so that he could specifically prepare for Fruitdealer. But to most of the community the outcome was obvious and in the single largest lopsided liquibet ever, everyone except 5 people bet on Fruitdealer. The only people who bet on ThorZaIN was ThorZaIN, ThorZaIN's mom and three people who misclicked.
ThorZaIN won with extremely calculated builds that caught Fruitdealer off guard, hammered in by relentless aggression that didn’t allow Fruitdealer to come back into the game. He then went on to defeat Nony, MC, Kas and NaNiwa. His games vs MC were historically one of the most important TvPs ever played and some of the best games played that year. He also inadvertently created the first ever mass thor build vs Protoss and then got it nerfed a few days later.
He became an instant sensation and one of the great foreign hopes. He was also one of the few to have spent long periods in Korea, first in the SlayerS house, then in F.United and finally in the EG-TL house where he became the first foreigner in ages to win an official match in Proleague. His rivalry with NaNiwa was one of the most important in SC2’s history and his victory over Polt at DH Stockholm 2012 was one of the most celebrated ever.
Playstyle:
The Koreans called him the Spoon Terran for his methodical way in slowly killing a man in small chunks and increments. It was perhaps the most fitting nickname he ever got and I firmly believe that the most excruciating way to lose is in a long macro game against ThorZaIN. At least with sOs and Has you know the end will come swiftly. In ThorZaIN's case he took Artosis’ old maxim of “Building a bigger advantage” to the extreme. If there was a scenario in the game where he had a 99% chance of victory, but if he elongated the game by an hour to ensure the extra 1% chance for 100% victory, he’d do it and the opponent would probably die of exhaustion in the meantime.
But at times he could also be incredibly aggressive. Most notably in his games against Fruitdealer and later on DRG. He could sometimes turn it on if he believed that the best path to victory was through very fast paced aggression that left the opponent flat footed.
Perhaps ThorZaIN's greatest trait was his preparation. I argue and still argue that no foreigner has ever been able to utilize the extra percentage points preparation can give you to create or refine builds to beat a superior opponent. When combined with his incredible mind for unique builds, his great sense for the late game, his sometimes unique unit compositions (he once went mass late-game reaper against Protoss, the second player to ever do so after qxc did it to Genius in TSL 3) and a great sense of positioning made him extremely dangerous to players above his skill level.
Difference between Jinro and ThorZaIN:
ThorZaIN didn't have the crazy peak Jinro had in the earlier era, but he played for a much longer period of time and was overall much more consistent.
I disagree with Jinro being so low. If we skip ahead to the #1 position, there are really only two candidates for me: Stephano and Jinro. Stephano had a long era of foreign domination, lots of tournament wins and could consistently go toe to toe with Koreans. Jinro, at his peak, had real impact in the most prestigious tournament in the motherland, which is a feat noone else ever came close to repeating. How one compares the value of these achievements is subjective, and I, too, would favor Stephano, but #12 is certainly too low for Jinro.
Well, I say he had the unit control, but his scv production has always been way too lackluster.
And yeh I agree with Bunny looking the most like a Korean terran of them all. While Major often would copy Korean builds, his midgame playstyle was very different as he relied on outmultitasking the opponents while being quite inefficient in direct engagements. The Korean playstyle is much more about clean engagements and clean builds where most foreign terrans simply played more of a ladder-style that only would work against weaker opponents.
The Koreans called him the Spoon Terran for his methodical way in slowly killing a man in small chunks and increments. It was perhaps the most fitting nickname he ever got and I firmly believe that the most excruciating way to lose is in a long macro game against ThorZaIN. At least with sOs and Has you know the end will come swiftly. In ThorZaIN's case he took Artosis’ old maxim of “Building a bigger advantage” to the extreme. If there was a scenario in the game where he had a 99% chance of victory, but if he elongated the game by an hour to ensure the extra 1% chance for 100% victory, he’d do it and the opponent would probably die of exhaustion in the meantime.
His playstyle wasn't as much voluntary as it was simply forced. With only 100 Sc2 APM its very limited how aggressive you can be with your units. And Thorzain had huge issues ending games while still being safe against counterattacks and executing engagements well.
Koreans. Jinro, at his peak, had real impact in the most prestigious tournament in the motherland, which is a feat noone else ever came close to repeating.
The problem is that GSL for the first 3-4 tournaments was much weaker. Like even Artosis qualified for season 1 and I think Idra - with a bit more luck - could have won S1 or S2. TLO did reasonably well too. Like the Koreans playing in 2010 were only marginally better than the top 16 foreigners.
And Jinro's run at the top was very very short, only lasting 4-6 months. And after that he fell completely apart and couldn't even get GM in Korea.
And its ofcourse also important to note that terran was considered the strongest race at the time.
The only people who bet on ThorZaIN was ThorZaIN, ThorZaIN's mom and three people who misclicked.
rofl was the poll resutls that bad?
He also inadvertently created the first ever mass thor build vs Protoss and then got it nerfed a few days later.
Thor cannons now doesn't cost energy but CD instead. Thor cannons removed. Thor argh damn it what do we do with it? Thor build time +5 second. Thor build time - 5 second.
As for Jinro, I was surprised he placed so low. He had one of the highest peak for foreigners but maybe his lack of longevity was a huge minus.
On December 25 2015 01:58 oGoZenob wrote: If stephano isn't top 1 I'll riot I'd say a top 3 stephano/naniwa/scarlett as those who had the most impact on the game
Expected Jinro a lot higher on the list. I missed a lot of sc2 in between WoL and the end of HotS though so I guess my view is also pretty coloured by that.
On December 25 2015 01:58 oGoZenob wrote: If stephano isn't top 1 I'll riot I'd say a top 3 stephano/naniwa/scarlett as those who had the most impact on the game
Snute over Scarlett.
I think it is a hard call between the two, I always feel that Scarlett had the highest peak of any foreign player, Snute was and still is quite good, but Scarlett showed complete domination of even high level Korean players. It still makes me sad to think what her results would have been with just a bit more luck, with a 14 pool instead of hatch first it is likely she would have won WCS NA 2013 over polt, similarly her losses to bomber wcs finals 2013, sOs at redbull, and Trap at MLG were heartbreakingly close. With just a few more wins Scarlett could possibly have been considered the best foreigner of all time, certainly overtaking Naniwa.......
On December 25 2015 01:58 oGoZenob wrote: If stephano isn't top 1 I'll riot I'd say a top 3 stephano/naniwa/scarlett as those who had the most impact on the game
On December 25 2015 01:58 oGoZenob wrote: If stephano isn't top 1 I'll riot I'd say a top 3 stephano/naniwa/scarlett as those who had the most impact on the game
Snute over Scarlett.
I think it is a hard call between the two, I always feel that Scarlett had the highest peak of any foreign player, Snute was and still is quite good, but Scarlett showed complete domination of even high level Korean players. It still makes me sad to think what her results would have been with just a bit more luck, with a 14 pool instead of hatch first it is likely she would have won WCS NA 2013 over polt, similarly her losses to bomber wcs finals 2013, sOs at redbull, and Trap at MLG were heartbreakingly close. With just a few more wins Scarlett could possibly have been considered the best foreigner of all time, certainly overtaking Naniwa.......
I'm the biggest Scarlett fan, but Snute just has better overall results. Scarlett has a bad habit of coming so close to winning and then finding some way to not. Like you said, if maybe 5 games in her career had gone the other way she'd be right up there but as it is there's no way you can put her over Snute. Maybe if WCS NA 2012 had counted as a Premier (like EU did) it'd be a more significant result too.
O come on, the TL writers left out one of Thorzain's achievements again.
He won the 2012 WCS Sweden Nationals, and that was back when Sweden was considered one of the strongest nations outside of korea with players like Thorzain, Naniwa, Sortof, Sase competing. It was so competitive, Naniwa wasn't even in the top 3.
And my predictions for top 5
1. Stephano. No doubt he is the best performing foreigner in SC2 history so far. 2. Snute 3. Naniwa 4. Scarlett 5. Vortix
I really hate the argument people use of "Well the competition wasn't as fierce back then." Are you kidding? It's not like it was easier to be good back then. Everybody was still on the exact same level playing field and that was a time when a LOT of people were trying to make it in SC2, especially in Korea. There were more players back then than there are now.
Oh wow I would have expected Jinro top 5 or something! To me lists like this are about what you did in your era against your peers. Every sport evolves and the level always gets higher, it is not because people are innately more talented or working harder in later eras just because they ended with a higher skillcap, it is the evolution of the game, practice methods, your peers, etc. Props for another awesome article series though, no complaints here just opinions.
The MLG Dallas that Jinro won was my first ever e-sports tournament. I remember I had to leave early because technical difficulties delayed the finals, but I was rooting for him all the way. Very fond memories of that, but beyond that and his GSL run later that year, he kind of faded away.
There's really only 4 foreigners that have had careers where they actually did well against Korean competition and those were Scarlett, Snute, Naniwa, and Stephano. Probably in reverse order.
#1 Stephano #2 NaNiwa #3 HuK #4 IdrA #5 Scarlett #6 Sen #7 Snute 7-10 I dunno. I'm thinking VortiX, MaNa, Nerchio and shit I dunno. I don't think ANY of those 3 should be above Jinro though.
On December 25 2015 03:16 RPR_Tempest wrote: So my predictions
#1 Stephano #2 NaNiwa #3 HuK #4 IdrA #5 Scarlett #6 Sen #7 Snute 7-10 I dunno. I'm thinking VortiX, MaNa, Nerchio and shit I dunno. I don't think ANY of those 3 should be above Jinro though.
I have the same list as you but with Snute higher, I'd put him as #3. Otherwise, exact same.
I'm still frustrated VortiX stopped SC2 when he was possibly the best foreigner, right after he qualified for IEM without losing a map including wins against koreans.
On December 25 2015 02:23 lichter wrote: jinro's gsl ro4 was probably the highest peak skill of any foreigner relative to his time/competition ever, sad it didn't last longer
Double ro4! Down the road that seems so much more impressive to me now than it did at the time.
LucifroN is the second most talented foreigner I would say but he left early and didn't have that much results so I doubt he will be on the list unfortunately.
I don't even think there will be terrans in the top 10? Scarlett probably 4 or 3 and Snute as 3 or 4 (most likely Snute 3rd), Huk at 7?
On December 25 2015 03:37 Poopi wrote: LucifroN is the second most talented foreigner I would say but he left early and didn't have that much results so I doubt he will be on the list unfortunately.
I don't even think there will be terrans in the top 10? Scarlett probably 4 or 3 and Snute as 3 or 4 (most likely Snute 3rd), Huk at 7?
Stephano has the edge on results, but seeing how Zerg was back then and how abusive he was always makes me feel a bit uneasy saying he was the best ever. nani has comparable (arguably better) results against Koreans and did it at a time when Protoss wasn't doing very well.
On December 25 2015 03:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Oh wow I would have expected Jinro top 5 or something! To me lists like this are about what you did in your era against your peers. Every sport evolves and the level always gets higher, it is not because people are innately more talented or working harder in later eras just because they ended with a higher skillcap, it is the evolution of the game, practice methods, your peers, etc. Props for another awesome article series though, no complaints here just opinions.
Generally I agree but imo the kespa switch has made the korean scene far more competitive because of their rigorous practice regiment. If a player would make double ro4 today it would be undoubtely more impressive then jinros runs. Still I think jinro should be higher.
I am very disappointed to see Jinro so low. While I do think his peak was pretty shortlived, he accomplished something pretty incredible. Even Naniwa's Ro8's seem more impressive than some 1st place finishes. Stephano obviously was the best, beating top-tier Koreans right and left at foreigner events. But there's something to be said about top 8 finishes in a Korean tournament.
Stephano, Naniwa and Huk are going to end up the top 3.
Next 3 are probably some combination of Snute, Scarlett and MaNa. MaNa is actually the odd wildcard I look forward to, as he's had top 3 finishes in Premier events across 5 years.
Snute is also an interesting case because at points his ZvP has approached not just "best foreigner of all-time" but possibly "best of all-time" at points. It's just too bad that he ran into two top 5 TvZers (at the time) at IEM twice. Otherwise he might have had 1-2 IEM titles to his name.
On December 25 2015 04:01 atrox_ wrote: interested to see where Lucifron will be placed. He's easily top 4 in my eyes he just never made it to the peak.
The fact that Bunny was compared to him means that he was 16th.
I'm surprised how many people are discounting Huk's achievements. He was nearly as dominant as Stephano during his era and has continued to be a relevant player to this day. 3 premier titles, numerous solid GSL showings, several other solid finishes in premier tournaments. If Huk isn't 2nd or 3rd I'd be surprised. Stephano is undoubtedly number 1, though.
When there was only 4Gates in PvP in Korea, he played with early Robo vs MC in the All Stars series and won with that epic drop, then broke the MC's table.
Well, seriously talking, even if I never liked Stephano, it is with no doubt the # 1.
I still can't see Snute better than Scarlet if you ask me
On December 25 2015 03:16 RPR_Tempest wrote: So my predictions
#1 Stephano #2 NaNiwa #3 HuK #4 IdrA #5 Scarlett #6 Sen #7 Snute 7-10 I dunno. I'm thinking VortiX, MaNa, Nerchio and shit I dunno. I don't think ANY of those 3 should be above Jinro though.
I have the same list as you but with Snute higher, I'd put him as #3. Otherwise, exact same.
I'm still frustrated VortiX stopped SC2 when he was possibly the best foreigner, right after he qualified for IEM without losing a map including wins against koreans.
I was always impressed how much other pros respected his skill when typically they're very hesitant to do so. It seems he never really reached his peak. I'm also frustrated to this day.
On December 25 2015 04:48 Footler wrote: I'm surprised how many people are discounting Huk's achievements. He was nearly as dominant as Stephano during his era and has continued to be a relevant player to this day. 3 premier titles, numerous solid GSL showings, several other solid finishes in premier tournaments. If Huk isn't 2nd or 3rd I'd be surprised. Stephano is undoubtedly number 1, though.
His GSL showings were because he got invited. In fact the GSL qualifiers are so hard that no foreigner was able to qualify the korean way haha.
Jinro too low though - back to back GSL Ro4 is insanely impressive and no other foreigner has since reached that peak. Can't discount it that much just because it was from early WoL, otherwise people would also discount MC, Mvp, and Nestea's accomplishments as well.
On December 25 2015 04:48 Footler wrote: I'm surprised how many people are discounting Huk's achievements. He was nearly as dominant as Stephano during his era and has continued to be a relevant player to this day. 3 premier titles, numerous solid GSL showings, several other solid finishes in premier tournaments. If Huk isn't 2nd or 3rd I'd be surprised. Stephano is undoubtedly number 1, though.
His GSL showings were because he got invited. In fact the GSL qualifiers are so hard that no foreigner was able to qualify the korean way haha.
Very few serious contenders tried, too little to gain. MaNa at least went from code A to code S.
Regarding Huk, there was a moment when he was the ace of OGS, that was pretty badass.
On December 25 2015 01:46 Poopi wrote: Okay so I guess the obvious #1 is Stephano and the obvious #2 is NaNiwa, I don't know who would be 3rd.
Huk is a strong candidate for 3rd I'd say.
I think it has to be Huk.
-First foreigner to beat a Korean in a premier tournament finals. -Won MLG Orlando, one of the toughest premier tournaments ever won by a foreigner (NASL 3 also up there) -Only player to win an MLG with Koreans -One of the best GSL foreigner performances along with Naniwa and Jinro. -Arguably the second best Protoss behind MC for parts of 2011.
Not better than Stephano and Naniwa, but Huk's performances in 2011 go far beyond any other foreigners'.
Saying that clearly Stephano > Naniwa is like saying that clearly neo > f0rest. Some things aren't black and white, these are cases of personal pref imo
Just chiming in on other peoples sentiments that Jinro should be higher. Double Ro4 in the GSL was an extremely huge accomplishment that deserves more recognition. Those were Ro64 tournaments as well in Korea making it all the more impressive he made it that deep.
On December 25 2015 05:38 vult wrote: Idk Top5 will be a tossup i think--My predictions for top 10 are possibly:
1. NaNiwa 2. Stephano 3. HuK 4. Snute 5. Scarlett 6. Sen 7. Nerchio 8. VortiX 9. MaNa 10. TLO
Flip Stephano and Nani and maybe flip Mana and Vortix and this is basically exactly my prediction.
My only reason for having Naniwa over Stephano is his success in Korea compared to Stephano and his extreme work ethic during his prime.
VortiX and MaNa came down to their strength at their primes. While MaNa may have more long term achievement and recent results, VortiX was so scary when he was playing and unfortunately fell off the map and went to hero brawling.
On December 25 2015 05:47 Tachion wrote: Just chiming in on other peoples sentiments that Jinro should be higher. Double Ro4 in the GSL was an extremely huge accomplishment that deserves more recognition. Those were Ro64 tournaments as well in Korea making it all the more impressive he made it that deep.
Agreed. I think if he were #10 and TLO was in his spot it would be a sound list.
On December 25 2015 05:37 Muffloe wrote: Saying that clearly Stephano > Naniwa is like saying that clearly neo > f0rest. Some things aren't black and white, these are cases of personal pref imo
Stephano won way more, had impact on the metagame that even impacted koreans, and some foreign patchzergs before their "rise" were trying to mimicate Stephano (but doing it worse despite doing it one year later Stephano).
On December 25 2015 01:31 Scorch wrote: I disagree with Jinro being so low. If we skip ahead to the #1 position, there are really only two candidates for me: Stephano and Jinro. Stephano had a long era of foreign domination, lots of tournament wins and could consistently go toe to toe with Koreans. Jinro, at his peak, had real impact in the most prestigious tournament in the motherland, which is a feat noone else ever came close to repeating. How one compares the value of these achievements is subjective, and I, too, would favor Stephano, but #12 is certainly too low for Jinro.
The fact is that Jinros domination came at a time when Koreans were still fresh in the water like us - the level of play back then was so low and everyone was on a similar playing field from it being such a new game. The korean mindset, practice schedule and downright genius hadn't been given enough to time to come to fruition.
In eras such as stephanos, Koreans had a much longer period of time to seperate themselves from the rest of the pack with everything i mentioned - this is why its that much more impressive for a foreigner to be able to go toe-to-toe with them so long after the games release - it proved that either they had an immense natural talent or they had applied themselves to the game just as hard as the koreans do.
On December 25 2015 05:37 Muffloe wrote: Saying that clearly Stephano > Naniwa is like saying that clearly neo > f0rest. Some things aren't black and white, these are cases of personal pref imo
Stephano won way more, had impact on the metagame that even impacted koreans, and some foreign patchzergs before their "rise" were trying to mimicate Stephano (but doing it worse despite doing it one year later Stephano).
Yeah, I can list reasons why my player is good aswell. Eerily similar to f0rest neo aye, kinda why I brought that up for comparison. At the end of the day Naniwa will be the better for alot of people, and probably even more for Stephano, but saying that one would clearly be better is where I start questioning it
On December 25 2015 05:37 Muffloe wrote: Saying that clearly Stephano > Naniwa is like saying that clearly neo > f0rest. Some things aren't black and white, these are cases of personal pref imo
Stephano won way more, had impact on the metagame that even impacted koreans, and some foreign patchzergs before their "rise" were trying to mimicate Stephano (but doing it worse despite doing it one year later Stephano).
Yeah, I can list reasons why my player is good aswell. Eerily similar to f0rest neo aye, kinda why I brought that up for comparison. At the end of the day Naniwa will be the better for alot of people, and probably even more for Stephano, but saying that one would clearly be better is where I start questioning it
I don't know who the huck are f0rest and neo though, but Stephano is not really in the same category as NaNiwa to be honest ^^'. Like I understood why people were torn up between Mvp and Life but for foreigners there is no doubt possible.
Snute should be nr 1 on this list, then naniwa and then stephano. Stephano and naniwa competed with koreans when the game was yet to be figured out. Snute sat down with solid ass foreigner mechanics and beat the shit out of top kespa players in a fully figured out HotS.
On December 25 2015 05:37 Muffloe wrote: Saying that clearly Stephano > Naniwa is like saying that clearly neo > f0rest. Some things aren't black and white, these are cases of personal pref imo
Stephano won way more, had impact on the metagame that even impacted koreans, and some foreign patchzergs before their "rise" were trying to mimicate Stephano (but doing it worse despite doing it one year later Stephano).
Yeah, I can list reasons why my player is good aswell. Eerily similar to f0rest neo aye, kinda why I brought that up for comparison. At the end of the day Naniwa will be the better for alot of people, and probably even more for Stephano, but saying that one would clearly be better is where I start questioning it
I don't know who the huck are f0rest and neo though, but Stephano is not really in the same category as NaNiwa to be honest ^^'. Like I understood why people were torn up between Mvp and Life but for foreigners there is no doubt possible.
Well, we can continue this with the actual top 5 thread, and see if Stu thought that Stephano was in his own tier Until then, Happy Holidays
Article will probably have Stephano first because historically the TL writers have preferred him to Naniwa.
However, if they want to be consistent with their GOAT article released recently, they should preference Nani over Stephano; all the consistency arguments that applied to Mvp apply moreso to Nani than to Stephano.
Stephano, Naniwa, Huk, Sen, Scarlett, Mana, Nerchio, White-Ra, Idra, Snute. No particular order, just my thoughts as to the Top 10. Honorable mentions/barely missed the cut to the Duran brothers and Qxc.
Snute should be at least top 2 there is no foreigner which could beat the top Kespa Koreans so consistent like Snute in a time where foreigners looked like master players compare to Koreans.
It's pretty much a no-brainer that top 2 will be Stephano and Naniwa, just depending on the writer's bias I suppose. It gets more interested between 3-10. My fellow countrymen that I cheer for every time like MaNa and Nerchio will surely make it on that list as well as canadians like Scarlett and HuK. I assume Snute will find his way onto the list as well. Maybe Happy and Beastyqt? That would be a bit of Terran bias but they were really solid for a long time despite not having MLGs and WCS trophies.
White-Ra Idra are a lock for top 10 as well if you ask me.
On December 25 2015 05:37 Muffloe wrote: Saying that clearly Stephano > Naniwa is like saying that clearly neo > f0rest. Some things aren't black and white, these are cases of personal pref imo
Stephano has always been #1 foreigner, and I think it's hard to put anyone else at #2 besides Naniwa.
But that's going off statistics... obviously the list is subject to opinion and bias, hence Dimaga on this list at all.
I think Stephano >>> Naniwa >>> Everyone else in terms of an honest list.
On December 25 2015 07:12 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: Wait, are people actually considering TLO on the list, above Thorzain and Jinro (and even Bunny that actually won a tournament)?
I ranked TLO at # 10 (i would have switched him with Jinro if i had the list) because throughout the entirety of SC2, he has ALWAYS been relevant and had always been fairly consistent. He may not have won tournaments, but he has always been there and show unique and CREATIVE styles. Idk, I think it would be subjective, as this list is, to place anyone anywhere.
I expect HuK to be high in the list, probably third after Stephano and NaNiwa. Stephano and NaNiwa are the only ones who could've given any Korean a run for his money. HuK however has been relevant from the beginning, winning an MLG and placing high in countless other tournaments. And he's still in it. In that sense, he's comparable with Polt for the sheer length of his relevance. In that way, I would place him before IdrA and Scarlett.
Top 5: Stephano, NaNiwa, HuK, Scarlett, IdrA
Man I wish we could have a new NaNiwa in GSL Ro8... two times.... in a row.
1. Stephano 2. Naniwa 3. Snute 4. HuK 5. Nerchio 6. Sen 7. Scarlett 8. Mana 9. Vortix 10. Jim
I think this is pretty accurate, I honestly couldn't really find the 10th player so I just went with Jim. Ofcourse there could be some player mixing between place 7 and 10 since they're all pretty close. Personally I would switch Snute and Nani but I don't think TL will put Nani below snute ^.^
Edit : I guess since some people really like IdrA it's not impossible for him to be the 10th player
On December 25 2015 07:04 Yonnua wrote: Article will probably have Stephano first because historically the TL writers have preferred him to Naniwa.
However, if they want to be consistent with their GOAT article released recently, they should preference Nani over Stephano; all the consistency arguments that applied to Mvp apply moreso to Nani than to Stephano.
It's a moot point now - the GOAT is outdated already. Life has cemented himself as #1 for now, having made another Blizzcon finals since the list came out.
Just based of results it has to be Nani/Stephano in first/second. Than I honestly believe it would be Huk as third just based off of premier wins and gsl. Snute could also be third but I think anything other than those four for the top four would be weird. Love Scarlett/Mana/Duran Bros/Nerchio but the results to those four just are not there.
On December 25 2015 04:51 HuK wrote: If I don't get top 3 I'm going to be pissed.
dat top 3 control
derrrrr.
Kind of confused why Scarlett isn't higher up on a lot of people's lists.
she doesn't have the results. the highest you can put her is 5, behind stephano, nani, huk, and snute. there's no argument to put her above those players.
Idra, Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, Scarlett, Snute for sure... Who else is there. Kiwikaki, QXC, Sen, Kas, White-ra, Hasu, Vortex, Lucifron, Ret, TLO, Mana, Major.
Id imagine that everyone from the top 10 should come from this list.
On December 25 2015 10:04 Phredxor wrote: Im hoping for some sweet liquid bias so people get really upset :D
I think the Bunny and Jinro so low is a smokescreen to pretend like liquid bias is gone, but then they are gonna drop Snute #1 on us
The justification for Jinro being low (weaker competition) could also be used to rank Snute really high. (beating KesPA players in multiple tournaments)
I guess I'm just echoing what others are saying, but the Jinro one is a little bit surprising. That had to be far and away the biggest achievement of a foreigner in SC2. And it wasn't just that he did it, but how he did. He was playing a pretty unique tank style if I remember correctly and had some wonderful games.
I guess we all have our own criteria. But I just find someone winning foreigner tournaments extremely less meaningful than the Korean tournaments.
On December 25 2015 11:57 FiWiFaKi wrote: So the 10 should be:
Idra, Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, Scarlett, Snute for sure... Who else is there. Kiwikaki, QXC, Sen, Kas, White-ra, Hasu, Vortex, Lucifron, Ret, TLO, Mana, Major.
Id imagine that everyone from the top 10 should come from this list.
HayprO #1, almost knocked out Nestea and Mvp in the same tournament when they were both doing their godmode thing!
But really, I think it's Stephano/NaNiwa top 2 and Scarlett/Snute right after. Maybe HuK slips into the top 5 because he stuck around in Code S for a long time?
I know Scarlett doesn't have a bunch of titles to her name, but I remember there were a few months where she was a serious contender against anyone in the world. I can only think of a handful of foreigners that ever felt quite as dangerous.
P.S. Remember when she beat DongRaeGu in MLG... as protoss?!
Naniwa got into the IEM finals in a time where he had to beat players like San and Hyun to do that while Snute got top 8 in a time where he had to beat players like Classic and Rain to do that. You can't just look at the result and say "oh he placed higher so he must be better" you also have to look at the bracket and
Snute had good results when Nani was in his prime and he still delivers today while Nani struggels with NA dias last time i checked his streams and fucks Destiny's ex.
I think it would be understandable to put Nani over Snute but it shouldn't be a shocker to rate Snute higher than Nani.
On December 25 2015 14:50 Kitai wrote: HayprO #1, almost knocked out Nestea and Mvp in the same tournament when they were both doing their godmode thing!
But really, I think it's Stephano/NaNiwa top 2 and Scarlett/Snute right after. Maybe HuK slips into the top 5 because he stuck around in Code S for a long time?
I know Scarlett doesn't have a bunch of titles to her name, but I remember there were a few months where she was a serious contender against anyone in the world. I can only think of a handful of foreigners that ever felt quite as dangerous.
P.S. Remember when she beat DongRaeGu in MLG... as protoss?!
Huk at his peak was better than Scarlett at hers, arguably better than Snute at his (Huk was more dominant, Snute had harder competition) and he deserves 3rd.
hmm, I feel a lot more out of my element in arguing the foreigner rankings. Bunny still feels a bit low to me.
Going to lose it if Naniwa somehow takes #1 over Stephano though. To me Stephano is an even more obvious #1 than Mvp was for the Koreans (Life was gaining on him).
I hope Sen gets the appreciation he deserves and cracks the top 5 too...but then again...Scarlett and Snute were pretty damn good and you can't not have Huk in there as well...god foreigner rankings are hard..
Doesn't carry the same amount of hype as the GOAT list since #1 is pretty clear. I guess #2-4 rankings would be interesting to see though.
To all the Jinro fans out here, as much as I love the guy his period of dominance was very very short in comparison to others. Likewise, he had very little impact on the meta (Puma was the much more prominent 1-1-1 user of that era).
If Stephano went to Korea for only one GSL season in his first year (until summer 2012). He would be the undisputed foreigner. He just didnt care about longrun tournaments. His second year was a big joke compared to his first year, su much the worse he went to korea at 2nd year.
Naniwa, Snute and HuK will probably be in 2-4, with the order being debatable; I can see points for each being number 2, but I'd prefer Nani.
Nerchio, MaNa and Sen will be on there, as well as probably Scarlett and Vortix. Some people will complain, that the latter 2 are above ThorZaIN, while never having won a premier, when ThorZaIN won 2. I'd personally possibly disagree with that, but I can see, where it is coming from.
I do not know, who is number 10 though? LucifroN? Can't really justify him as nr.1 terran. Polt or viOLet? No matter what americans claim, they are still koreans.Idra? Won two premiers as well, but the finals were against Kiwikaki/elfi, while ThorZeIN had to take down Polt and Naniwa in bo5+ (and FD, MC and others earlier in the bracket). My best bet would be on someone chinese out of the 100k-club (Jim, Macsed or Xigua).
Honorable mentions go out to the other 2 chinese players mentioned, Idra, LucifroN, HasuObs, Kas, Ret, Happy, White-Ra and TLO.
Edit: In the heat of thinking, I forgot to say: Thanks stuchiu for doing this, it is always a pleasure to read your work.
Since this is about greatest foreigner and not best foreigner I doubt naniwa will be top3. Naniwa was good no doubt, but his attitude towards other human beings and the game was very questionable.
ah Thorzains thor rush <3 That must have been the shortest time between a build seeing the light of a tournament and blizzard nerfing the shit out of it
0. Jinro - seriously. GSL Ro4 twice. It's the closest to Grrr.... we had in SC2. 1. Stephano - hard to argue. 4 premiers (though ESWC included only out of form MKP and MC and WCS was strictly EU only so 2 premiers with significant Korean presence), decent showing in Proleague, he actually carried International team against Korea in GSL WC. 2012 GSL World Championship. 2. I'm torn a bit but I will go with NaNiwa. He was solid, won two premiers (but one was koreanless) - MLG Global beating Mvp 2-1 and Nestea 2-1 (semifinal final). These were offline games. He made numerous deep runs and actually was relevant after Korea started to travel - unlike HuK. Plus two Ro8 in GSL which was nice. 3. HuK! While his initial championship was in NA without any koreans, his Dreamhack ended with koreans on 2-4 positions (famous - top4 training in Korea). He shortly won HSC3 - the last non-premier one. Orlando title rather imporessive. Solid results in MLG early 2012. Plus Ro8 in GSL. Carried the torch of best foreigner between Jinro and Stephano. 4. IdrA - I feel he will land around here but I will always remember him because of this. EG lost any credibility in my eyes when they rehired him as HotS player. 6. Nerchio - Solid as rock but never the strongest. Also for years he is proplayer only part time which is very impressive. Recently jumped over MaNa in SC2 earnings ranking edging him out by ~250$ 7. MaNa - MaNa was able at times to show fantastic play. He - however - almost always loses to Nerchio. 8. Scarlett - At times she was strongest foreigner aronud. Period. While she never won premier, she was strongest at the time that it wasn't really that relevant to distinguish foreigners. 9. Snute - Last homestory Cup won by not TaeJa Korean. Snute was remained very solid and dangerous for long period of time but I feel and when prepared Scarlett was simply better. 9. Sen - When he was relevant, he was strong but finished top 4 at best. Then he declined and won when nobody else was able to. However his TWOP run - while impressive - wasn't jaw dropping. 10. White-Ra - Special tactics > all. But seriously - he declined more or less around the same time as NesTea: when the game started to be really demanding mechanically and was unable to keep up. NesTea remained relevant longer because he was stronger. His IPL2 was fairly good showing. I will remember him mostly for challenging MC in Dreamhack Invitational.
On December 26 2015 03:32 nimdil wrote: 4. IdrA - I feel he will land around here but I will always remember him because of this. EG lost any credibility in my eyes when they rehired him as HotS player.
If you remember him for getting fired and not for his actual results, why would you put him on nr.4?
Typo on the TL.net front page, "forigners" instead of "foreigners" in the small preview box. Other than that, well here's an article that will ignite passionate debates. Disappointed it isn't the top 15 greatest French players of all time though
On December 26 2015 06:06 OtherWorld wrote: Typo on the TL.net front page, "forigners" instead of "foreigners" in the small preview box. Other than that, well here's an article that will ignite passionate debates. Disappointed it isn't the top 15 greatest French players of all time though
On December 26 2015 03:32 nimdil wrote: 4. IdrA - I feel he will land around here but I will always remember him because of this. EG lost any credibility in my eyes when they rehired him as HotS player.
If you remember him for getting fired and not for his actual results, why would you put him on nr.4?
I remember his results and his strong play but I will always remember him for his awful behaviour.
On December 26 2015 06:28 jalstar wrote: What were the most impressive premier tournament wins by foreigners, in your memory? Mine were:
Stephano winning IPL 3 and NASL 3 Huk winning MLG Orlando Naniwa winning the MLG Global Invitational
The IPL3 win was not super impressive, imo, I was there. The top Koreans that were there choked HARD, Slayers brought their A squad, Boxer included, but Stephano never ran into them; his opponent in the finals was Lucky... (yeah...who?), and it was a boring steamroll (after a really long boring exhibition match of some MOBA I thought would never take off by the silly name of League of Legends...)
NASL I didn't watch so I don't know, but HuK's MLG win was pretty impressive, and I would add Thorzain taking down Polt at Dreamhack
On December 26 2015 06:28 jalstar wrote: What were the most impressive premier tournament wins by foreigners, in your memory? Mine were:
Stephano winning IPL 3 and NASL 3 Huk winning MLG Orlando Naniwa winning the MLG Global Invitational
The IPL3 win was not super impressive, imo, I was there. The top Koreans that were there choked HARD, Slayers brought their A squad, Boxer included, but Stephano never ran into them; his opponent in the finals was Lucky... (yeah...who?), and it was a boring steamroll (after a really long boring exhibition match of some MOBA I thought would never take off by the silly name of League of Legends...)
NASL I didn't watch so I don't know, but HuK's MLG win was pretty impressive, and I would add Thorzain taking down Polt at Dreamhack
I was there too!
And I literally fell asleep during that MOBA interruption, before the grand finals.
On December 26 2015 06:28 jalstar wrote: What were the most impressive premier tournament wins by foreigners, in your memory? Mine were:
Stephano winning IPL 3 and NASL 3 Huk winning MLG Orlando Naniwa winning the MLG Global Invitational
I think HSC 5 is up there. Nerchio beating MC (who was in GSL ro8 at that time and would go on to make the final, 3-0ing DRG in the semis a week after HSC took place) and murdering Yonghwa was quite impressive. Still remembering the hatch save on Ohana as a symbol for that series.
Naniwa beating Mvp, Nestea (when they were the best players in the world, as told to us by TL writers in the GOAT article), and DRG (GSL champion a couple of months later) all in the same weekend is indisputably a bigger achievement than anything that Stephano did, and Naniwa was consistently around the top (at least of the foreign scene) between 2011 and 2014. Stephano had a much smaller period of dominance and never competed in the GSL, other than when he was knocked out in round one.
Consistency + Higher peaks + Success in/out of Korea = Naniwa best foreigner.
On December 26 2015 09:42 Yonnua wrote: Naniwa beating Mvp, Nestea (when they were the best players in the world, as told to us by TL writers in the GOAT article), and DRG (GSL champion a couple of months later) all in the same weekend is indisputably a bigger achievement than anything that Stephano did, and Naniwa was consistently around the top (at least of the foreign scene) between 2011 and 2014. Stephano had a much smaller period of dominance and never competed in the GSL, other than when he was knocked out in round one.
Consistency + Higher peaks + Success in/out of Korea = Naniwa best foreigner.
To be fair, he got knocked out by losing to Innovations vZ twice. Not really something, he has to be ashamed for.
just fucking announce #1 and get it over and done with haha fkin TL....
He could be tied for one of the most influential players to play Starcraft in general. Who the fuck could just go freestyle and 'feel' the game like he could....he introduced a beautiful freedom into the game
On December 25 2015 01:31 Scorch wrote: I disagree with Jinro being so low. If we skip ahead to the #1 position, there are really only two candidates for me: Stephano and Jinro. Stephano had a long era of foreign domination, lots of tournament wins and could consistently go toe to toe with Koreans. Jinro, at his peak, had real impact in the most prestigious tournament in the motherland, which is a feat noone else ever came close to repeating. How one compares the value of these achievements is subjective, and I, too, would favor Stephano, but #12 is certainly too low for Jinro.
Thanks but I wasn't even sure I would be on this list lol D:
I think if my 3 tournament placings had happened 1 or 2 years later, you could argue I should be higher but the scene was so young at the time, I think they should be 'devalued' a little bit at least.
Doesn't mean I'm not proud of those two GSL semi finals, of course
On December 25 2015 17:59 kottbullar wrote: Doesn't carry the same amount of hype as the GOAT list since #1 is pretty clear. I guess #2-4 rankings would be interesting to see though.
To all the Jinro fans out here, as much as I love the guy his period of dominance was very very short in comparison to others. Likewise, he had very little impact on the meta (Puma was the much more prominent 1-1-1 user of that era).
I didn't even play the traditional 1-1-1 at first, the version I preferred was the Brat_OK one with ravens and bio instead of tanks.
I like to think I popularized blue flame hellion drops in TvT on the korean ladder tho (indirectly, it was before I'd really made it into anything, but nobody was using blue flame hellion builds TvT when I got to Korea and after I started using them a lot on ladder, suddenly it was one of the like 3 standard TvT openings for a while).
One of my favorite memories from around this time was hearing oGsTOP complaining about how he can't beat the bio guys TvT on ladder (specifically bomber and marineking).... I'm like "Really? I think bio openers are pretty easy to beat". So TOP, who at this time is like top 5 KR GM (which was far higher than me rofl) tells me to login to his account and play some games so he can watch.
Mentally Im like "oh crap my big mouth", but I say "OK". First game I get MarineKing, cloak banshee into blue flame hellion drop into sick game win. 2nd game Bomber, same thing. Looked pretty boss IMO even though it involved a fuck ton of luck :D
EDIT: Then around the time I was playing Marineking in the GSL semis, I was experimenting with this fucking BATTLECRUSIER tank 1 base push on scrap station with an SCV pull, knocking down the rocks (it won some games but was really inconsistent), TOP - who at this point was a really strong TvT:er and avid blueflame hellion user - was like "why dont you just use the blueflame hellion into banshee build..?". Which I did for game 1 which I won. Full circle : )
Disappointed about the Jungle Basin game tho, I had this really interesting mech build planned (nobody meched TvT at this time except goody lol), but it was such a new build that it didn't have all the kinks worked out and I got flustered and screwed it up when MKP did something I didn't expect. It was really similar to some of the later day double armory mech styles tho, and it worked well in practice vs Select and some others (split map gameplan fairly strong on jungle basin).
Also remember having like a 4-5 game TvT marathon with MVP on the ladder when he first started climbing it (just before I made GSL for the first time), and a ton of long TvTs vs boxer, also on ladder... Man I'd forgotten how cool ladder was around that time.
Speaking of ladder builds, while my blue flame hellion TvT style got a little bit popular, dario's 1/1/1 one gas TvT marine/hellion/medivac opener became THE build when he used it on ladder. It was insane, almost every good korean terran would use it at least sometimes.
Spunky was like "in the future, never use your good builds on the ladder dario wtf" :D
On December 25 2015 01:31 Scorch wrote: I disagree with Jinro being so low. If we skip ahead to the #1 position, there are really only two candidates for me: Stephano and Jinro. Stephano had a long era of foreign domination, lots of tournament wins and could consistently go toe to toe with Koreans. Jinro, at his peak, had real impact in the most prestigious tournament in the motherland, which is a feat noone else ever came close to repeating. How one compares the value of these achievements is subjective, and I, too, would favor Stephano, but #12 is certainly too low for Jinro.
Thanks but I wasn't even sure I would be on this list lol D:
I think if my 3 tournament placings had happened 1 or 2 years later, you could argue I should be higher but the scene was so young at the time, I think they should be 'devalued' a little bit at least.
Doesn't mean I'm not proud of those two GSL semi finals, of course
On December 25 2015 17:59 kottbullar wrote: Doesn't carry the same amount of hype as the GOAT list since #1 is pretty clear. I guess #2-4 rankings would be interesting to see though.
To all the Jinro fans out here, as much as I love the guy his period of dominance was very very short in comparison to others. Likewise, he had very little impact on the meta (Puma was the much more prominent 1-1-1 user of that era).
I didn't even play the traditional 1-1-1 at first, the version I preferred was the Brat_OK one with ravens and bio instead of tanks.
I like to think I popularized blue flame hellion drops in TvT on the korean ladder tho (indirectly, it was before I'd really made it into anything, but nobody was using blue flame hellion builds TvT when I got to Korea and after I started using them a lot on ladder, suddenly it was one of the like 3 standard TvT openings for a while).
One of my favorite memories from around this time was hearing oGsTOP complaining about how he can't beat the bio guys TvT on ladder (specifically bomber and marineking).... I'm like "Really? I think bio openers are pretty easy to beat". So TOP, who at this time is like top 5 KR GM (which was far higher than me rofl) tells me to login to his account and play some games so he can watch.
Mentally Im like "oh crap my big mouth", but I say "OK". First game I get MarineKing, cloak banshee into blue flame hellion drop into sick game win. 2nd game Bomber, same thing. Looked pretty boss IMO even though it involved a fuck ton of luck :D
EDIT: Then around the time I was playing Marineking in the GSL semis, I was experimenting with this fucking BATTLECRUSIER tank 1 base push on scrap station with an SCV pull, knocking down the rocks (it won some games but was really inconsistent), TOP - who at this point was a really strong TvT:er and avid blueflame hellion user - was like "why dont you just use the blueflame hellion into banshee build..?". Which I did for game 1 which I won. Full circle : )
Disappointed about the Jungle Basin game tho, I had this really interesting mech build planned (nobody meched TvT at this time except goody lol), but it was such a new build that it didn't have all the kinks worked out and I got flustered and screwed it up when MKP did something I didn't expect. It was really similar to some of the later day double armory mech styles tho, and it worked well in practice vs Select and some others (split map gameplan fairly strong on jungle basin).
Also remember having like a 4-5 game TvT marathon with MVP on the ladder when he first started climbing it (just before I made GSL for the first time), and a ton of long TvTs vs boxer, also on ladder... Man I'd forgotten how cool ladder was around that time.
Speaking of ladder builds, while my blue flame hellion TvT style got a little bit popular, dario's 1/1/1 one gas TvT marine/hellion/medivac opener became THE build when he used it on ladder. It was insane, almost every good korean terran would use it at least sometimes.
Spunky was like "in the future, never use your good builds on the ladder dario wtf" :D
Had you made a double Ro4 in a row in 2012 there would not even be a question of the #1 spot Sure your reign was short but you were one of the very few who could have won the big thing, the field may have been weaker but still you beat the greats of your time (I will never forget MC GSL January 2011). A feat only been achieve by so few.
People doubting Stephano have no idea, the guy was best foreigner by far. He pretty much revolutionized ZvP play back in the day, he could easily beat any TOP KOREAN player. Actually, he played in ProLeague for EG-TL, beating players such as Effort, herO, sOs, Bbyong and Terminator. Yeah, you could argue that Zerg was the strongest race at the time, but still no other foreigner came even close - not even Nerchio.
On December 26 2015 23:08 Promised_pain wrote: People doubting Stephano have no idea, the guy was best foreigner by far. He pretty much revolutionized ZvP play back in the day, he could easily beat any TOP KOREAN player. Actually, he played in ProLeague for EG-TL, beating players such as Effort, herO, sOs, Bbyong and Terminator. Yeah, you could argue that Zerg was the strongest race at the time, but still no other foreigner came even close - not even Nerchio.
The biggest difference between Stephano and HuK / Nani was far worse results in preparation format.
On December 26 2015 23:08 Promised_pain wrote: People doubting Stephano have no idea, the guy was best foreigner by far. He pretty much revolutionized ZvP play back in the day, he could easily beat any TOP KOREAN player. Actually, he played in ProLeague for EG-TL, beating players such as Effort, herO, sOs, Bbyong and Terminator. Yeah, you could argue that Zerg was the strongest race at the time, but still no other foreigner came even close - not even Nerchio.
The biggest difference between Stephano and HuK / Nani was far worse results in preparation format.
HuK had "results" in the GSL around the same time as Jinro afaik, a bit after maybe.
Stephano didn't give a lot of shit about preparation format, he didn't even bother to scout and died to a 2rax vs INnovation, but I don't remember his results as terrible either in this format?
I'd say his somewhat relevance with EG-TL and the decent job in the GSL group compensates for what HuK have done in the GSL because it was later, but NaNi indeed had good results in code S.
Stephano didn't abuse broodlord infestor that much iirc, the unit he abused a lot in order to have decent results with very little practice was the swarm host in HotS but he was already retired so it makes sense?
I think both VortiX and Ret will be in the top 10.
1. Stephano 2. NaNiwa 3. Snute 4. HuK 5. Scarlett 6. MaNa 7. VortiX 8. Nerchio 9. SEn 10. Ret
So many foreigner zergs :x. I put Scarlett a bit lower because even though she had a very good level at some point apparently she didn't won any premier so HuK has to be put higher. Snute is now the second highest foreigner in earnings and has been the best foreigner at some points of HotS, beaten good koreans etc, but I would still put NaNi higher.
HuK was far lower in my first batch when I first read the top 11-15 but since then I have looked at some players/tourney instead of relying on memories, and 4th seems like the right spot.
I'm pretty sure VortiX will be lower than Nerchio because we still see Nerchio in LotV and stuff but VortiX was a monster at some points, carrying in teamleagues vs koreans (zerg was strong at the time though), however for the same reason as Scarlett vs HuK I have to put MaNa higher than him, more achievements.
Nerchio had good results online and has had, albeit later, good results offline too, SEn was very scary in the early days, and Ret had surprisingly good results so he deserves to be in there.
I didn't put IdrA in because at the beginning of the game he had similar results as Jinro but less good, then at times he had decent showings in MLG when Z was good but worse than other top foreigner zergs, etc... Can't put him above Jinro or ThoRZaiN (sry spelling) really.
On December 26 2015 23:08 Promised_pain wrote: People doubting Stephano have no idea, the guy was best foreigner by far. He pretty much revolutionized ZvP play back in the day, he could easily beat any TOP KOREAN player. Actually, he played in ProLeague for EG-TL, beating players such as Effort, herO, sOs, Bbyong and Terminator. Yeah, you could argue that Zerg was the strongest race at the time, but still no other foreigner came even close - not even Nerchio.
The biggest difference between Stephano and HuK / Nani was far worse results in preparation format.
My guess is if Jinro is ranked outside of the top 10 for consecutive Ro4 GSL appearances, it doesn't bode well for Naniwa capturing the #1 spot given he was only a Ro8 showing
On December 25 2015 05:38 vult wrote: Idk Top5 will be a tossup i think--My predictions for top 10 are possibly:
1. NaNiwa 2. Stephano 3. HuK 4. Snute 5. Scarlett 6. Sen 7. Nerchio 8. VortiX 9. MaNa 10. TLO
This (given what who we already excluded) lines up pretty well who I personally think is the top 10 foreigners. However from experience of TL (e.g. "player of the year" and other posts) I am not sure Naniwa will be #1 maybe not even top 2 (in which case I'd have to disagree very firmly). As many other itt I think Nani and Stephano are clear top 2, followed by HuK, Scarlett Snute. However they might put one of these above Naniwa (I hope not). Let's wait and see
Oh and it was a very nice read this far!
edit: The reason I put Naniwa on top is his GSL Results (he was very very close to beating DRG in their match), him beating MVP and Nestea in/close to their primes, beating Innovation (in good form) and his consistency. Stephano had shorter reign, and mostly had good results in foreign tournaments (even though he beat some good koreans). Naniwa crushed Scarlett in the bitcoin showmatch (in her prime). In short Naniwa beat stronger players than Stephano did, had longer reign and showed good results in GSL.
idra #1 for me. The game didnt seem to have any flavor when he retired and has ruined my ability to get hyped any more with this game ,although i do get excited to see life!
On December 27 2015 08:56 [PkF] Wire wrote: IMO, the fight for #1 will be tense between Stephano and NaNiwa, while IdrA and HuK will fight for the #3 spot. Can't wait, exciting list.
If I may ask, how does Idra get this high? His biggest tournament win was probably IEM Guangzhou and the finals there was against elfi. I'd be very surprised to see him on the list at all tbh., because I can't see him being ranked above ThorZaIN.
On December 27 2015 08:56 [PkF] Wire wrote: IMO, the fight for #1 will be tense between Stephano and NaNiwa, while IdrA and HuK will fight for the #3 spot. Can't wait, exciting list.
If I may ask, how does Idra get this high? His biggest tournament win was probably IEM Guangzhou and the finals there was against elfi. I'd be very surprised to see him on the list at all tbh., because I can't see him being ranked above ThorZaIN.
I would be very surprised if Idra is in the top 10. Idra was a very popular player, that didn't necessarily mean he had top-4 (or even top 10) foreigner results of all time.
imo its very difficult to understand what exactly "greatest" means. Dont know if it includes popularity, personality, drama etc. If we talk about "best" I think Naniwa has a bigger chance to be #1 than in "greatest" vs Stephano.
On December 27 2015 08:56 [PkF] Wire wrote: IMO, the fight for #1 will be tense between Stephano and NaNiwa, while IdrA and HuK will fight for the #3 spot. Can't wait, exciting list.
If I may ask, how does Idra get this high? His biggest tournament win was probably IEM Guangzhou and the finals there was against elfi. I'd be very surprised to see him on the list at all tbh., because I can't see him being ranked above ThorZaIN.
To be fair I don't think it's easy to justify 10 foreigners over ThorZaIN. IdrA for a long time was top3 foreigner which this ranking is all about. He was arguably the best initially (although the scene was fragmented so who knows), then 2nd behind Jinro, then 2nd-3rd behind HuK/NaNi and then probably 4th behind Stephano HuK and Nani. Assuming my assessment is correct he was top foreigner for over a year. But perhaps this is blowing his results out of proportion due to lack of maturity of the scene. Still he should be top10 over i.e. Ret.
On December 26 2015 09:42 Yonnua wrote: Naniwa beating Mvp, Nestea (when they were the best players in the world, as told to us by TL writers in the GOAT article), and DRG (GSL champion a couple of months later) all in the same weekend is indisputably a bigger achievement than anything that Stephano did, and Naniwa was consistently around the top (at least of the foreign scene) between 2011 and 2014. Stephano had a much smaller period of dominance and never competed in the GSL, other than when he was knocked out in round one.
Consistency + Higher peaks + Success in/out of Korea = Naniwa best foreigner.
To be fair, he got knocked out by losing to Innovations vZ twice. Not really something, he has to be ashamed for.
In late 2012? Losing to any terrans at that period is not good on your resume. That said, Stephano definitely did have a relatively long period of being the best foreigner (at least a year). So no doubt he should be #1.
HuK had "results" in the GSL around the same time as Jinro afaik, a bit after maybe.
If I remember correctly, Huk's first GSL code S was my last GSL code S (when I lost to Nestea, if I remember correctly the group was me, San, nestea and clide. Won vs San, Clide beat Nestea, and I had basically only practiced TvP and TvT, expecting nestea to beat clide, and lost 0-2 vs nestea... I think).
what a headache. i think this just shows that there were many incredibly good players throughout the years. for various reasons, said players decided to cut themselves off from the top-most competition.
this neither submits new information nor expands upon it.
some players would spent the entirety of 3 months to prepare for one of their best runs. other players were holding onto their monthly Code S seeding, occaisionally participating in tournaments that didn't overlap. it's very important to see that time and luck are very large factors.
a starcraft player's influence combined with their results (relative strength) is what creates their 'legacy'. for example, [oops]reach is up there as legend status in the sc:bw scene even when his only achievements include an OSL victory over boxer, and a few other deep runs. if you were to ask people who they remembered the most out of all the foreign players out there, you'd have a pretty definitive and an extremely subjective list. this thread is a reminder of their achievements. rather, i'd like to see who the starcraft communities votes as the best.
now that that era is basically over, it's much easier to do an accurate review. aggregated scores are typically bloated by the fact that not all the content is out at once. our thinning memory of the games, the tournaments and the importance of events is a worrying thing as well.
HuK had "results" in the GSL around the same time as Jinro afaik, a bit after maybe.
If I remember correctly, Huk's first GSL code S was my last GSL code S (when I lost to Nestea, if I remember correctly the group was me, San, nestea and clide. Won vs San, Clide beat Nestea, and I had basically only practiced TvP and TvT, expecting nestea to beat clide, and lost 0-2 vs nestea... I think).
On December 27 2015 08:56 [PkF] Wire wrote: IMO, the fight for #1 will be tense between Stephano and NaNiwa, while IdrA and HuK will fight for the #3 spot. Can't wait, exciting list.
If I may ask, how does Idra get this high? His biggest tournament win was probably IEM Guangzhou and the finals there was against elfi. I'd be very surprised to see him on the list at all tbh., because I can't see him being ranked above ThorZaIN.
To be fair I don't think it's easy to justify 10 foreigners over ThorZaIN. IdrA for a long time was top3 foreigner which this ranking is all about. He was arguably the best initially (although the scene was fragmented so who knows), then 2nd behind Jinro, then 2nd-3rd behind HuK/NaNi and then probably 4th behind Stephano HuK and Nani. Assuming my assessment is correct he was top foreigner for over a year. But perhaps this is blowing his results out of proportion due to lack of maturity of the scene. Still he should be top10 over i.e. Ret.
Over Ret probably yes. But being a clear top foreigner is debatable. He mostly played MLG's, which had mostly the same opponents coming out of Europe: Socke, Naniwa, Sjow and the Liquid guys (Ret, Jinro, Haypro, TLO). Since he mostly outperformed these guys (except for Naniwa), it looked like he would be as ahead of the european scene as well. But the euros going to the MLG's were not neccesarily the best euros around.
For example: Nerchio, Sase, HasuObs, Kas, ThorZaIN, Morrow and the mentioned Naniwa and Socke have all winning records against Idra. Dimaga has never played him. The other top euros, who Idra has a winning record against are MaNa (who is not neccesarily known for his PvZ), White-Ra and Happy. Seing that, I don't think Idra being better than for example Nerchio or DIMAGA, even at his prime, is a clear case. + Show Spoiler +
GoOdy has a "winning record" against Idra as well, but since they only played one map, I choose to not include him int he list above
HuK had "results" in the GSL around the same time as Jinro afaik, a bit after maybe.
If I remember correctly, Huk's first GSL code S was my last GSL code S (when I lost to Nestea, if I remember correctly the group was me, San, nestea and clide. Won vs San, Clide beat Nestea, and I had basically only practiced TvP and TvT, expecting nestea to beat clide, and lost 0-2 vs nestea... I think).
On December 27 2015 08:56 [PkF] Wire wrote: IMO, the fight for #1 will be tense between Stephano and NaNiwa, while IdrA and HuK will fight for the #3 spot. Can't wait, exciting list.
If I may ask, how does Idra get this high? His biggest tournament win was probably IEM Guangzhou and the finals there was against elfi. I'd be very surprised to see him on the list at all tbh., because I can't see him being ranked above ThorZaIN.
To be fair I don't think it's easy to justify 10 foreigners over ThorZaIN. IdrA for a long time was top3 foreigner which this ranking is all about. He was arguably the best initially (although the scene was fragmented so who knows), then 2nd behind Jinro, then 2nd-3rd behind HuK/NaNi and then probably 4th behind Stephano HuK and Nani. Assuming my assessment is correct he was top foreigner for over a year. But perhaps this is blowing his results out of proportion due to lack of maturity of the scene. Still he should be top10 over i.e. Ret.
Over Ret probably yes. But being a clear top foreigner is debatable. He mostly played MLG's, which had mostly the same opponents coming out of Europe: Socke, Naniwa, Sjow and the Liquid guys (Ret, Jinro, Haypro, TLO). Since he mostly outperformed these guys (except for Naniwa), it looked like he would be as ahead of the european scene as well. But the euros going to the MLG's were not neccesarily the best euros around.
For example: Nerchio, Sase, HasuObs, Kas, ThorZaIN, Morrow and the mentioned Naniwa and Socke have all winning records against Idra. Dimaga has never played him. The other top euros, who Idra has a winning record against are MaNa (who is not neccesarily known for his PvZ), White-Ra and Happy. Seing that, I don't think Idra being better than for example Nerchio or DIMAGA, even at his prime, is a clear case. + Show Spoiler +
GoOdy has a "winning record" against Idra as well, but since they only played one map, I choose to not include him int he list above
.
I'm not sure if all time records are that relevant. I don't think either SaSe, Hasu, Kas, Socke or Morrow should be over ThorZaIN. So the question that bothers me here is if not IdrA then who is in top10.
HuK had "results" in the GSL around the same time as Jinro afaik, a bit after maybe.
If I remember correctly, Huk's first GSL code S was my last GSL code S (when I lost to Nestea, if I remember correctly the group was me, San, nestea and clide. Won vs San, Clide beat Nestea, and I had basically only practiced TvP and TvT, expecting nestea to beat clide, and lost 0-2 vs nestea... I think).
Here is an interesting question, during your peak where you won MLG, 2 GSL code semifinals and Idra 4-1 in a showmatch, whom would you rate above you, and were there any foreigners whom you would argue were comparable in skills to you (just never had the case to show it?
On December 27 2015 08:56 [PkF] Wire wrote: IMO, the fight for #1 will be tense between Stephano and NaNiwa, while IdrA and HuK will fight for the #3 spot. Can't wait, exciting list.
If I may ask, how does Idra get this high? His biggest tournament win was probably IEM Guangzhou and the finals there was against elfi. I'd be very surprised to see him on the list at all tbh., because I can't see him being ranked above ThorZaIN.
To be fair I don't think it's easy to justify 10 foreigners over ThorZaIN. IdrA for a long time was top3 foreigner which this ranking is all about. He was arguably the best initially (although the scene was fragmented so who knows), then 2nd behind Jinro, then 2nd-3rd behind HuK/NaNi and then probably 4th behind Stephano HuK and Nani. Assuming my assessment is correct he was top foreigner for over a year. But perhaps this is blowing his results out of proportion due to lack of maturity of the scene. Still he should be top10 over i.e. Ret.
Over Ret probably yes. But being a clear top foreigner is debatable. He mostly played MLG's, which had mostly the same opponents coming out of Europe: Socke, Naniwa, Sjow and the Liquid guys (Ret, Jinro, Haypro, TLO). Since he mostly outperformed these guys (except for Naniwa), it looked like he would be as ahead of the european scene as well. But the euros going to the MLG's were not neccesarily the best euros around.
For example: Nerchio, Sase, HasuObs, Kas, ThorZaIN, Morrow and the mentioned Naniwa and Socke have all winning records against Idra. Dimaga has never played him. The other top euros, who Idra has a winning record against are MaNa (who is not neccesarily known for his PvZ), White-Ra and Happy. Seing that, I don't think Idra being better than for example Nerchio or DIMAGA, even at his prime, is a clear case. + Show Spoiler +
GoOdy has a "winning record" against Idra as well, but since they only played one map, I choose to not include him int he list above
.
I'm not sure if all time records are that relevant. I don't think either SaSe, Hasu, Kas, Socke or Morrow should be over ThorZaIN. So the question that bothers me here is if not IdrA then who is in top10.
They are relevant, since it were Idras results. You said, he was 2nd behind Jinro for a time, 2nd -3rd behind HuK-Nani and probably 4th behind Stephano, HuK and Nani. I say, if he constantly loses to Kas etc in that time, it isn't that clear that he ever was in these position. Why should we consider him superior to for example Nerchio, when he constantly loses against people, Nerchio constantly wins against. Why should we consider him superior to ThorZaIN, when ThorZaIN has better results and a better 2h2-score? Why should Idra be considered 2nd/2nd-3rd/4th in these respective timeframes?
To be clear, I think Idra should be rated higher than Sase/Hasu/Kas/Socke and Morrow based on overall achievments, but having a large group of europeans, he couldn't beat in his prime is questioning his supposed top-2/3/4 position during that period.
HuK had "results" in the GSL around the same time as Jinro afaik, a bit after maybe.
If I remember correctly, Huk's first GSL code S was my last GSL code S (when I lost to Nestea, if I remember correctly the group was me, San, nestea and clide. Won vs San, Clide beat Nestea, and I had basically only practiced TvP and TvT, expecting nestea to beat clide, and lost 0-2 vs nestea... I think).
The season we found out InCa couldn't play PvZ. Though Game 5 of Nestea vs sC on Crossfire was one of the single best games of WoL.
I'm proud of my battle cruiser TvP build I used vs San there haha...... It was gimmicky tho, and frustrating to practice once the oGs tosses had seen it a few times.
Less proud of my 'panic proxy rax' that Nestea predicted 100% ;d
HuK had "results" in the GSL around the same time as Jinro afaik, a bit after maybe.
If I remember correctly, Huk's first GSL code S was my last GSL code S (when I lost to Nestea, if I remember correctly the group was me, San, nestea and clide. Won vs San, Clide beat Nestea, and I had basically only practiced TvP and TvT, expecting nestea to beat clide, and lost 0-2 vs nestea... I think).
Here is an interesting question, during your peak where you won MLG, 2 GSL code semifinals and Idra 4-1 in a showmatch, whom would you rate above you, and were there any foreigners whom you would argue were comparable in skills to you (just never had the case to show it?
4-2* vs IdrA (lost on Shakuras and Lost Temple, should have lost on Crevasse but 3-3 vs 1-1 too strong lol. If I lost the Crevasse game I think IdrA might have won that series because IIRC the last map was Tal'darim and I sucked on that map TvZ).
Well, I didn't really get to play many foreigners because I 99% played KR server or privates with people in korea (mostly oGs guys). But for example one of the guys I practiced with vs Marineking was Select and we always had really close games, and Select in turn had close games with other top NA and EU players. I don't remember when TSL was exactly, and it was back in the very laggy days, but I did lose 1-2 to morrow (although the bastard baneling busted both wins lol) as well. And speaking of TSL, again, I dont remember when this was exactly but you obviously had Thorzain and Naniwa there who were already starting to be world beaters.
My personal opinion at the time, though I didn't really know for sure since I never got to play with them, was that there were a lot of non-korean players on about my level or better. I used to look at a lot of Brat_OK, Strelok, Kas (am I forgetting anyone? the eastern european terrans basically) replays for inspiration. I think in terms of mechanics there were a tooooooooon better than me, I just had really good preparation for those two GSLs... really great practice environment, really great build input by Nazgul and the oGs coaches, just I was in a great environment to do what I did and winning MLG gave me the motivation to practice insanely hard for a few months.
But I definitely always felt that my performance in those two events was WAY above my level, which is why I've always been thankful when people rate me highly on these lists, but never actually expected to be very high.
TLDR: Mechanically I think there were a bunch of foreigners as good/better than me (I never played most of them so I can't say which for sure), I just had a very good environment to succeed and was supremely motivated.
Oh and I obviously played idra a bunch of times on ladder and he'd usually win (no idea if he knows this since it was usually on my smurf). He was as good as any other top zerg at that time at the very least, on ladder... but tournaments he just wasn't as scary.
Edit: actually, for the first gsl I think there were a lot of people as good or better but my 2nd run I think I was genuinely one of the very best in tvt and tvz at least.
There is no doubt on my mind that the foreigners that really made a splash in the worldwide scene are Jinro, Idra, Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, and...yeah. There may have been others that were better, but these players actually achieved something against the Koreans in one way or another during their height. Jinro, Idra, Huk, and Naniwa all had 2 good runs in GSL if I remember correctly, Stephano revolutionized ZvP and had many good results outside of Korea. Huk won an MLG with Koreans and was the only foreigner to do so if I remember.
Other players should get mentioned outside of them from Thorzain to Scarlett and let's say Lilbow, etc. But I cannot take seriously a discussion that takes the foreigner with the best period of any foreigner (2 GLS top 4s and MLG championship) and thinks they aren't in the top 5...
On December 30 2015 02:04 Eliezar wrote: I just don't know what to think about this.
There is no doubt on my mind that the foreigners that really made a splash in the worldwide scene are Jinro, Idra, Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, and...yeah. There may have been others that were better, but these players actually achieved something against the Koreans in one way or another during their height. Jinro, Idra, Huk, and Naniwa all had 2 good runs in GSL if I remember correctly, Stephano revolutionized ZvP and had many good results outside of Korea. Huk won an MLG with Koreans and was the only foreigner to do so if I remember.
Other players should get mentioned outside of them from Thorzain to Scarlett and let's say Lilbow, etc. But I cannot take seriously a discussion that takes the foreigner with the best period of any foreigner (2 GLS top 4s and MLG championship) and thinks they aren't in the top 5...
I think you shouldn't define the quality of the ranking by Jinro's placement. Jinro has on one had the by far best result in one metric (GSL ro4; not only once but twice), but on the other hand, that is the only metric, you can arguably use to put him anywere near the top 5 (In earnings he is number 61 among foreigners for example).
The MLG championship is not that big of a deal in terms of greatness, the only relevant people, he defeated there were Ret, Socke and TT1 (and maybe Painuser, if you want to count him). The championship runs of HuK (Against Julyzerg, MC, MKP, TheSTC and MC again at MLG Orlando, against Moon twice, Socke and Julyzerg at DH Summer), Naniwa (Nestea and Mvp at MLG GI), ThorZaIN (Against Sjow, Socke, Monster and Polt at DH Stockholm), Nerchio (against Snute, MC and Yonghwa twice at HSC 5), MaNa (against Titan, TargA, Stephano and ForGG at ESWC), Stephano (against various koreans in various tournaments), Snute (against Stephano, Symbol twice) and Sen(Bomber, Has and Hyun) were much harder. You could probably argue about Naama's DH Winter win (against TOP, MaNa, Darkforce), Heromarines 2014 EPS win (against Golden, Patience, Showtime) and a few others being harder than MLG Dallas 2010 as well, so that shouldn't be a major argument.
Still, there are those Semifinals. Noone has repeated even one of those since (although Naniwa was within one map once) and it is likely, that noone will repeat them in the future either. So the question in ranking Jinro is: How much is that very short, but very high peak worth? For stuchiu, the answer is apperently: 12th place; for you it is apperently top 5, for me.... I don't even know myself tbh. The point I'm trying to make is, that Jinro is by far the most difficult to rank foreign player there is. For every other one, you find a majority of people that will agree that "xxx is better than yyy, but worse than zzz". The majority of people agrees, that Stephano and Naniwa belong into the top 4, Huk is regarded as definitly top 5-6, but not 1st and probably not 2nd, MaNa is genreally classified as top-10, but not top-4, Kas is definitly top-30, but likely not top 10, and so on... Placing Jinro there is no such general agreement. He is a total wildcard.
On December 30 2015 04:51 b0ub0u wrote: Speaking of peak level. Don't you guys think that Scarlett would be #1?
At her prime she was the best foreigner ever in my book.
In my book, GoOdy has a 66,6% winrate against GSL champions offline, so he would be a strong candidate for #1, even disregarding the elimination of Nestea during TSL3. Our books may be incomplete, though.
4-2* vs IdrA (lost on Shakuras and Lost Temple, should have lost on Crevasse but 3-3 vs 1-1 too strong lol. If I lost the Crevasse game I think IdrA might have won that series because IIRC the last map was Tal'darim and I sucked on that map TvZ).
I think another problem Idra had that series was that these new big maps hadn't been released on ladder yet, and he hadn't actually practiced them since he didn't have such an environment, whereas I am sure you did.
Oh and I obviously played idra a bunch of times on ladder and he'd usually win (no idea if he knows this since it was usually on my smurf). He was as good as any other top zerg at that time at the very least, on ladder... but tournaments he just wasn't as scary.
Yeh, Idra was really really good early WOL release. In my book he probably should have won season 1. I think he had a few margins going against him in the first 2-3 GSL's, and after that he quickly declined in skill.
Well, I didn't really get to play many foreigners because I 99% played KR server or privates with people in korea (mostly oGs guys). But for example one of the guys I practiced with vs Marineking was Select and we always had really close games, and Select in turn had close games with other top NA and EU players.
I think Select was also the arguably best ("foreign" - but can we really call him that? I mean I don't think as Polt as a foreigner) terran player for a short period. Terrible macro, but his unit control was really good.
Before that - first 2 months of WOL - Morrow was the best foreigner. I think it would be interesting to see what had happened had he gone to Korea in 2010 and sticked to terran, because I remember him looking unstopable in all of the small European tournaments. As Zerg he was pretty bad for the first 6 months or so, which is pretty sad.
I remember also watching and cheering for your games against MarineKing like a mad man. I wondered if you could expose his bio only playstyle. And while you did win G1 against him, I felt it was quite obvious that his mechanics were on a different level. Generally speaking, it semed to me you had extremely good builds/openings that often got you a lead and afterwards you had a decent sense of how to take it into a macrogameafterwards.
And I guess that might have been why you had issues post 2011 as the game started being more about mechanics since people learned how to deal with most builds (?)
On December 30 2015 05:34 ilikeredheads wrote: Top 2 will probably be Scarlett and Stephano.
I'd see it going something like:
1) Naniwa/Stephano 2) Stephano/Naniwa 3) HuK 4) Scarlett 5) Snute
I feel that the reign and rivalry between Nani and Stephano and their accomplishments in Korea outweigh the success that Scarlett had. You think the guy that had two top 8 finishes in GSL should be below Scarlett? You can even argue HuK's success of being able to stay in Code S for six seasons during his stint in Korea is incredible and should rank him possibly Top 3.
Guys, I love Scarlett, but if you're actually putting her top 3 all time, you really need to think a bit more critically about it. I mean, she beat a lot of Koreans sure, but 0 premier wins and bad WCS results post-2013 and no real Korean tournament results are going to cost her dearly.
On December 30 2015 08:05 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I love Scarlett, but if you're actually putting her top 3 all time, you really need to think a bit more critically about it. I mean, she beat a lot of Koreans sure, but 0 premier wins and bad WCS results post-2013 and no real Korean tournament results are going to cost her dearly.
I think she's probably just shy of top 5, but to be frank, not many other foreigners have been as skilled as her, regardless of her results. I mean, her games vs. Bomber are legendary. But yeah shes definitely not top 3.
On December 30 2015 08:05 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I love Scarlett, but if you're actually putting her top 3 all time, you really need to think a bit more critically about it. I mean, she beat a lot of Koreans sure, but 0 premier wins and bad WCS results post-2013 and no real Korean tournament results are going to cost her dearly.
Hahaha! Jinro on spot 12. Then I don't have to read more I guess. Lol. How the hell can you set him so low? I suspect the writer simply wasn't following the scene when Jinro played. He actually changed the Korean meta. He was so highly regarded in the community it's not even funny. How the fuck can he only be twelwth.
On December 30 2015 18:49 Tryxtira wrote: Hahaha! Jinro on spot 12. Then I don't have to read more I guess. Lol. How the hell can you set him so low? I suspect the writer simply wasn't following the scene when Jinro played. He actually changed the Korean meta. He was so highly regarded in the community it's not even funny. How the fuck can he only be twelwth.
I mean i know you said you don't need to read any more.. but if you read it, it might answer your questions.
On December 30 2015 08:05 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I love Scarlett, but if you're actually putting her top 3 all time, you really need to think a bit more critically about it. I mean, she beat a lot of Koreans sure, but 0 premier wins and bad WCS results post-2013 and no real Korean tournament results are going to cost her dearly.
I think she's probably just shy of top 5, but to be frank, not many other foreigners have been as skilled as her, regardless of her results. I mean, her games vs. Bomber are legendary. But yeah shes definitely not top 3.
We will probably see these players being top 10 Sen Snute Nerchio Ret MaNa HuK IdrA Scarlett NaniWa Stephano
I also want to mention WhiteRa. This guy was at his primes pretty damn good. Let's also give a honourable mention to the only foreigner making it into IM. Fenix!
On December 30 2015 18:49 Tryxtira wrote: Hahaha! Jinro on spot 12. Then I don't have to read more I guess. Lol. How the hell can you set him so low? I suspect the writer simply wasn't following the scene when Jinro played. He actually changed the Korean meta. He was so highly regarded in the community it's not even funny. How the fuck can he only be twelwth.
He was highly regarded in the community = Actally being one of the best foreigners of all time (?) Changed the Korean meta? So you think that without Jinro koreans would still do 1/2-base all in?
How exactly did he change the meta? Because the way he played macro in 2010 had very little resemblance with how terran played macro in early 2011.
On December 30 2015 18:49 Tryxtira wrote: Hahaha! Jinro on spot 12. Then I don't have to read more I guess. Lol. How the hell can you set him so low? I suspect the writer simply wasn't following the scene when Jinro played. He actually changed the Korean meta. He was so highly regarded in the community it's not even funny. How the fuck can he only be twelwth.
You know, being at spot 12 despite losing so much after (when I looked for other people achievements I saw the results of many MLG, DH, IEM, etc...), basically to everyone in week-end tournaments, is very impressive already.
I think another problem Idra had that series was that these new big maps hadn't been released on ladder yet, and he hadn't actually practiced them since he didn't have such an environment, whereas I am sure you did.
Yeah that was all I played.
Yeh, Idra was really really good early WOL release. In my book he probably should have won season 1. I think he had a few margins going against him in the first 2-3 GSL's, and after that he quickly declined in skill.
It wasn't an awesome time to be a macro zerg (queens weren't the monsters they later became), but I felt idra sort of refused to accept that people were gonna cheese him... I dont know, he was really good but could have done so much more.
I remember also watching and cheering for your games against MarineKing like a mad man. I wondered if you could expose his bio only playstyle. And while you did win G1 against him, I felt it was quite obvious that his mechanics were on a different level. Generally speaking, it semed to me you had extremely good builds/openings that often got you a lead and afterwards you had a decent sense of how to take it into a macrogameafterwards.
Yeah he was mechanically better (he was/is mechanically incredible, watched so many games of his and just had my jaw drop at how he handles situations), but I also kind of got nervous when I was actually winning game 1 (and did my best to throw it) and then game 2 I kind of got thrown off by 1) he opened with a factory opening wtf! and 2) my build was working twice in a row ;d
My mechanics in that series and mechanics in practice were not the same tho, I fell apart a bit. Not an excuse at all, since that's part of the game, performing at a high level when it matters.
Btw, this had 0 impact on the series but I always found it kind of funny: Literally 1 hour after the games ended I started feeling super sick (throat hurting, chills etc) and the next morning I had a bad flu. My mind was so focused on that series that I didn't feel a single thing until it was over tho.
And I guess that might have been why you had issues post 2011 as the game started being more about mechanics since people learned how to deal with most builds (?)
Yeah for sure that was part of it, but I also went from non-stop custom practice games and ranking matches to... grinding ladder and streaming heh. Yeah not a smart move.
I had one last push of actually focused practice and I generally consider this the last time I was improving... It was late 2011 when I made code A qualifier finals and lost 1-2 vs IM... crap cant remember who, Minseok? IM Zerg anyway.
Man, had the last game so won - _ - Nestea reportedly even said 'it's over'. Then 12 ghost fungal t.t
One of my favorite series I played as a pro, every game was intense as hell and his comeback in the last game was really nice.
On December 30 2015 18:49 Tryxtira wrote: Hahaha! Jinro on spot 12. Then I don't have to read more I guess. Lol. How the hell can you set him so low? I suspect the writer simply wasn't following the scene when Jinro played. He actually changed the Korean meta. He was so highly regarded in the community it's not even funny. How the fuck can he only be twelwth.
You know, being at spot 12 despite losing so much after (when I looked for other people achievements I saw the results of many MLG, DH, IEM, etc...), basically to everyone in week-end tournaments, is very impressive already.
I´m a fan of Scarlett but I feel like if she´s in the top ten she may be rated slightly too high, I think that Dimaga has achieved more than Scarlett, but she definitely deserves to be in the top fifteen for her absolute domination of the NA scene in 2012 (see her WCS results) and her victor y over polt in that one WCS as wel las that epic MLG wher eshe offraced DRG and won.
Also it´ll be a shame if Sase doesn´t end up on this list as I think his MLG run to top 4 from open bracket is the most impressive MLG run by a foriegner, and he had other noteworthy results too.
That´s just my opinion though, I absolutely LOVE that this is happening, and I think Stephano has long deserved this. Predictions for top 5
Stephano 1, Naniwa 2 HuK 3 Snute 4 Idra 5 (though I kind of hope not. Still, for a while he was decent... then again, I actually think in some ways Thorzain achieved more than him but Thorzain is already on here so I guess we´ll see.)
Some notes on Jinro and Idra. When they were in Korean there was the issue where tournament winners got a massive proportion of the winnings (ie winner was 10x the semifinalists) and MLG also had low payouts for weekend tournaments. Its like the opposite of S.O.S. I remember the community complaining about the prize distributions...some MLGs were $5k for first place if I remember.
It seems almost everyone agrees on 8 out of 10 players in top10 - Stephano, Naniwa, HuK, Snute, Scarlett, Sen, Nerchio, MaNa. I cannot agree more.
Not everyone bets on Vortix but he has to be there simply because he achieved more than Lucifron who was 16th.
Who's the tenth player is the interesting question. I'm guessing Idra is the most probable choice although I don't think putting him above Jinro would be right. But I can't think of any other foreigner that could also be considered greater than Thorzain.
On January 02 2016 10:23 stardog wrote: It seems almost everyone agrees on 8 out of 10 players in top10 - Stephano, Naniwa, HuK, Snute, Scarlett, Sen, Nerchio, MaNa. I cannot agree more.
Not everyone bets on Vortix but he has to be there simply because he achieved more than Lucifron who was 16th.
Who's the tenth player is the interesting question. I'm guessing Idra is the most probable choice although I don't think putting him above Jinro would be right. But I can't think of any other foreigner that could also be considered greater than Thorzain.
On January 02 2016 10:23 stardog wrote: It seems almost everyone agrees on 8 out of 10 players in top10 - Stephano, Naniwa, HuK, Snute, Scarlett, Sen, Nerchio, MaNa. I cannot agree more.
Not everyone bets on Vortix but he has to be there simply because he achieved more than Lucifron who was 16th.
Who's the tenth player is the interesting question. I'm guessing Idra is the most probable choice although I don't think putting him above Jinro would be right. But I can't think of any other foreigner that could also be considered greater than Thorzain.
My best bet is someone chinese. Jim or Xigua maybe.
On January 02 2016 10:23 stardog wrote: It seems almost everyone agrees on 8 out of 10 players in top10 - Stephano, Naniwa, HuK, Snute, Scarlett, Sen, Nerchio, MaNa. I cannot agree more.
Not everyone bets on Vortix but he has to be there simply because he achieved more than Lucifron who was 16th.
Who's the tenth player is the interesting question. I'm guessing Idra is the most probable choice although I don't think putting him above Jinro would be right. But I can't think of any other foreigner that could also be considered greater than Thorzain.
My best bet is someone chinese. Jim or Xigua maybe.
I can't see an argument for Jim anymore. With Thorzain/Jinro already outside the top 10 I can't imagine how to justify Jim being in it. If Xigua was 10th I'd be surprised, but I'd be utterly stunned if he was any further.
As for my guesses I assume QXC/Vortix will be the missing two, with the rest of those 8 players being in. Possibly replace Mana with someone but idk who
On January 02 2016 10:23 stardog wrote: It seems almost everyone agrees on 8 out of 10 players in top10 - Stephano, Naniwa, HuK, Snute, Scarlett, Sen, Nerchio, MaNa. I cannot agree more.
Not everyone bets on Vortix but he has to be there simply because he achieved more than Lucifron who was 16th.
Who's the tenth player is the interesting question. I'm guessing Idra is the most probable choice although I don't think putting him above Jinro would be right. But I can't think of any other foreigner that could also be considered greater than Thorzain.
Thorzain is there 100%. Idra won't be there.
100% Thorzain isn't on there, since he's ranked #11 on this list Surely he wouldn't be in the Top Ten also.
On January 02 2016 10:23 stardog wrote: It seems almost everyone agrees on 8 out of 10 players in top10 - Stephano, Naniwa, HuK, Snute, Scarlett, Sen, Nerchio, MaNa. I cannot agree more.
Not everyone bets on Vortix but he has to be there simply because he achieved more than Lucifron who was 16th.
Who's the tenth player is the interesting question. I'm guessing Idra is the most probable choice although I don't think putting him above Jinro would be right. But I can't think of any other foreigner that could also be considered greater than Thorzain.
My best bet is someone chinese. Jim or Xigua maybe.
I can't see an argument for Jim anymore. With Thorzain/Jinro already outside the top 10 I can't imagine how to justify Jim being in it. If Xigua was 10th I'd be surprised, but I'd be utterly stunned if he was any further.
As for my guesses I assume QXC/Vortix will be the missing two, with the rest of those 8 players being in. Possibly replace Mana with someone but idk who
I doubt, that QXC has any chance of making the list. If he'd be on there, that would establish him as the nr. 1 terran of all time, ahead of ThorZaIN/Jinro/Bunny/LucfroN. Personally I would have a hard time putting him in a top-10 list of foreign terrans, but nr. 1 is objectively wrong I think.
What about WhiteRa? It's not a list of the BEST foreign players, but the GREATEST. And if Special Tactics himself is not on that list (even if only at number 15),then the list isn't right.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/6/6c/Bunny_dh_bucharest_14.jpg/250px-Bunny_dh_bucharest_14.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/lichter/Homestory_Cup/X/dimaga1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/3/36/Lilbow_Finals_WCS_S2_2015.jpg/562px-Lilbow_Finals_WCS_S2_2015.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/stuchiu/jinro.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/d/da/ThorZaIN-SFMLG20130316-162121.jpg/294px-ThorZaIN-SFMLG20130316-162121.jpg)
no finns on the list
2012 GSL World Championship
