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On December 12 2015 09:04 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Maps : ha ha ha. No thanks, don't use this map pool for season 1. Those maps aren't even half decent.
Balance test map : the proposed changes seem kinda okayish. Where is the carrier build time buff though ?
I don't really have an opinion about the rest, which doesn't affect P match-ups a lot.
Oh yeah, that's actually interesting that they didn't say a word about the carrier rebuff... :S
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Ghosts expensive as fuck and snipe doesn't fire if a frickin zergling so much as breathes near them. And it's stupid to have to build a unit just to hard counter another races unit. it's the same vs Protoss (Templar) -- Terran is only building this expensive unit to counter another race's unit. You don't ever build Ghosts vs Zerg or Protoss unless they have Templar or Ultralisks -- seems silly.
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How exactly can you push Lurker even further behind? Its already alot of "Fun" playing lurker. Constantly watching your Lurker die against Disruptor shots. Or engaging with Lurker: Move forward, burrow. BLINK away. Repeating of course.
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friendly fire on PB would do nothing. zerg would just cast pb and then pull back like terrans did with seeker missile.
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On December 12 2015 08:18 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 08:03 Spyridon wrote:On December 12 2015 06:49 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:On December 12 2015 06:16 andrewlt wrote:On December 12 2015 04:08 Big J wrote:
@Maps: Cool, matches my thoughts somewhat. Though I wouldn't mind if you would actually patch a map sometimes.
@Ultralisks: The problem is the double nerf/buff here. The split marauder attack would have already made Ultralisks more popular in HotS. 1 more armor for them would have already been very strong against marines in HotS. 2 more armor + the split marauder attack is just too much in my opinion.
I would like to see the ultralisk upgrade go down to +3 armor as soon as possible. If Terrans really figure out ways to deal with them consistently, so that ultralisks become too weak in Legacy, you can always rebuff them to +4 or take other actions.
@Parasitic Bomb: Fully agree that this ability is very strong and we only don't see it that often because people just don't go air against zerg to begin with. I think an interesting tweak would be to delay the effect by a few seconds after it hit, or start the damage off lower and increase it after a few seconds. This would work well with the ability to split the affected units away from others. Maybe that's not enough but it would be interesting and increase counterplay against the ability.
@Balance Changes:
Pylon Overcharge, good suggestion.
Disruptor, don't know since I don't play PvP.
Thor AA increase: I believe a moderate increase is the way too go. The Thor is a very strong unit in direct combat and one really has to look out that this unit doesn't become a counter to too many things with a bit of support. Armored Capital Ships like Broodlords, Battlecruisers and Carriers/Tempests have been one of the main counters to it so far. I don't think this should be turned upside down.
Ravager morph, agree completely. More tension when morphing them and a slight extra delay on rushes does seem like a fitting patch.
Lurker morph, I don't really see the issue. The unit is strong ZvZ and ZvP eventually, but already takes a long time to get out. I really think the unit is fine at the moment with the disruptor and viper being good counters against it and I don't think any patch to this unit is necessary at the moment. These are pretty good suggestions and I mostly agree with them. Their design for ultralisks exposes much of what is wrong in SC2's lategame. In order to reduce the ubiquity of MMM compositions, they want ultralisks to hard counter MMM to force the terran to build the hard counter to ultralisks. Hard counters are one of the things that this game has done wrong since the beginning. I miss the stable late games of BW where the compositions are pretty much set and the game ends up revolving around micro and positioning, not transitioning repeatedly from rock to paper to scissors then back to rock. There are way too many instances in SC2 of players killing their own units to free up supply because their opponent has hard counters for their units and they need to build the hard counter to their opponents' units. Having to kill your own units to switch compositions is one of the dumbest mechanics in videogame history. Hard counters need to go away. Well said!!!! I didnt play BW but that late game sound paradise compared to hard counter bs While I completely agree that hard counters are bad for the health of the game, BW late game isn't the best example, especailly when it comes to Ultras. Ultras + Dark Swarm countered bio a hell of a lot harder in BW than Ultras counter anything right now. I dunno. Ultras + Blinding Cloud/PB makes a pretty good case.
Ultras + Dark Swarm countered a higher % of Terran units in BW than it does in SC2.
Also, BW's Devourer acid + scourge >SC2's PB, and air units were not nearly as strong as they are in SC2, so strong anti air is needed even more than it was in BW.
Which is exactly why I think PB should be the "norm" and Terran/Protoss should have anti air just as strong. But apparently they want air super strong by design...
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On December 12 2015 08:32 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 08:13 ShambhalaWar wrote:On December 12 2015 07:55 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:On December 12 2015 07:47 ShambhalaWar wrote:
LOTV so much better than HOTS imo, I'm actually watching and interested in games.
I feel like there is so much more back and forth that there ever was, which is great. The games seem like like an honest match, (and don't last 40 fucking minutes).
Nice job.
As far as automated tournaments go, please implement a "team league" option. That would be a great format for tourneys, the cool thing about that is you don't have to invest more time than just one game, you teammates play the rest.
Part of the reason I don't play tourney is cause i don't want to invest the time. Long games are the most exciting most of the time, idk what you are talking about The missing qualifier is, "My opinion is... ____________" I'm sure you said that of all the turtle mech and swarm host games. What a hippocrit. You said nothing about your opinion when you complained about the game length. And notice i said "most" of the time. Mech and swarmhost were obviously exceptions
"LOTV so much better than HOTS imo, I'm actually watching and interested in games. "
IMO means, "In my opinion."
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Remember that time you made Banelings and Marines both counter each other, and everyone was like "holy shit TvZ is cool"?
That's actually not as much hardcounters you are talking about as micro-interactions. The issue with the Ultralisks is mainly in the way it counters unit.... By a-moving and the way to counter Ultralisks is through Ghosts which first and foremost is 10 times more difficult for the terran to execute and also makes the army very deathballish.
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Still can't figure out who the hell is complaining about lurkers. They look almost useless in pro games (I haven't seen a single one where they traded efficiently), and I can't find an efficient way to integrate them with their long ass build time and relatively weak damage and range. Is this coming from Diamond shitters who aren't used to playing vs stuff that can be invisible?
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On December 12 2015 10:00 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Remember that time you made Banelings and Marines both counter each other, and everyone was like "holy shit TvZ is cool"? That's actually not as much hardcounters you are talking about as micro-interactions. The issue with the Ultralisks is mainly in the way it counters unit.... By a-moving and the way to counter Ultralisks is through Ghosts which first and foremost is 10 times more difficult for the terran to execute and also makes the army very deathballish.
I don't disagree with anything you said, but at the end of the day that's what soft countering is. Marines are great against Banes if Marines are microed and Banes aren't. Banes are great against Marines if Banes are microed and Marines aren't. And when both are microed, we're in for a proper game of StarCraft.
As you say, Ultras skew the micro requirement against Terran to a nonsensical degree. If Blizzard wants more units used in TvZ, they need to buff those units to make Terrans want to get them. This is pretty straight forward. Liberators don't suck = Liberators get used. Ghosts suck (outside of vs Ultras) = Ghosts are not used. Make Ghosts suck less and I promise people will make them!
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Really sad that they don't see any problem with the maps 
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On December 12 2015 09:48 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 08:32 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:On December 12 2015 08:13 ShambhalaWar wrote:On December 12 2015 07:55 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:On December 12 2015 07:47 ShambhalaWar wrote:
LOTV so much better than HOTS imo, I'm actually watching and interested in games.
I feel like there is so much more back and forth that there ever was, which is great. The games seem like like an honest match, (and don't last 40 fucking minutes).
Nice job.
As far as automated tournaments go, please implement a "team league" option. That would be a great format for tourneys, the cool thing about that is you don't have to invest more time than just one game, you teammates play the rest.
Part of the reason I don't play tourney is cause i don't want to invest the time. Long games are the most exciting most of the time, idk what you are talking about The missing qualifier is, "My opinion is... ____________" I'm sure you said that of all the turtle mech and swarm host games. What a hippocrit. You said nothing about your opinion when you complained about the game length. And notice i said "most" of the time. Mech and swarmhost were obviously exceptions "LOTV so much better than HOTS imo, I'm actually watching and interested in games. " IMO means, "In my opinion."
Usually when a person states their opinion, it's generally understood that they are stating their opinion. Thus for convenience sake it may be omitted.
For example, if I say "Clark Gable was a bad actor," is it generally understood that I'm saying "In my opinion Clark Gable was a bad actor," not "It is an irrefutable truth of the universe that Clark Gable was a bad actor." Clearly he was saying that it was merely his opinion that long games are most exciting.
You on the other hand made a terrible mistake, which I am kind enough to fix for you here:
In my opinion the missing qualifier in your statement is, "My opinion is... ____________"
I'm sure you said that of all the turtle mech and swarm host games.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
On December 12 2015 04:25 ZAiNs wrote:
Overcharge nerf + Disruptor nerf + Carrier buff will totally ruin the beauty of current PvP :/.
said no-one ever
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On December 12 2015 11:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 04:25 ZAiNs wrote:
Overcharge nerf + Disruptor nerf + Carrier buff will totally ruin the beauty of current PvP :/. said no-one ever
I'll say it. I've only seen a single relatively high level PvP series in LotV and it had tons of potential. I sincerely hope we're still trying to tweak that playstyle, and not push it aside for coin flip "creativity."
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On December 12 2015 11:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 04:25 ZAiNs wrote:
Overcharge nerf + Disruptor nerf + Carrier buff will totally ruin the beauty of current PvP :/. said no-one ever
Said every Protoss progamer who played the beta when Carrier vs Carrier was the norm...
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On December 12 2015 04:11 Solar424 wrote:
I like how even Blizzard expected the maps to be utter garbage
Hahaha, definitely a weird formulation from D.Kim :D.
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"no major game breaking issues with the new maps" is like saying "well, world war 3 hasn't broken out so everything is peaceful everywhere". there is at least one particular map, which has a large high ground space above the mineral line of the most obvious 3rd base on the map and I have witnessed top players complaining directly about this on their streams. Stop spin doctoring these responses which always downplay the problems...
Ultralisks not underpowered ? no, they just die almost immediately to stimmed bio kiting, top zergs almost never teched to ultras because they never had the resources to do it while being widow mine kited to death. And now 2-3 disruptor shots can kill a pack of them instantly, so of course we must nerf their armor because these damned zerg units are just not dying fast enough like every other zerg unit does. While this goes on we have seen countless games of turtling terran and protoss absolutely decimating entire zerg armies with nearly no losses and never a thought from blizzard of nerfing these kinds of strategies. How about nerf the bloody disruptors, wasn't anyone from blizzard watching the mindboggling back and forth stalker disruptor dances at the Dreamhack tournament? your opponent makes disruptors, you simply can't attack them because if you lose 20-50% of your army in one shot you just lose the game to a-moving. any thoughts on this Blizzard or is everything A- OK hunky dory on the disruptor issue?? since no mention of it here, therefore it's being ignored despite it being a major issue.
double buff to zerg and double nerf to terran for the ultra issue? well, it still leaves zerg far behind considering the QUADRUPLE BUFF terran got at the start of HOTS with reaper heal, widow mines, hellbats and speed boosted medivacs all playing havoc on zerg who could easily answer with... ummm... absolutely nothing but desperately inventive play, improved scouting, nailbiting holds and possibly just blind countering because the strategies were so overpowered that every terran was using them pretty much automatically. That was incredibly fair, Blizzard. that has been made worse now with the reaper bombs. and where, exactly, is zerg getting the ability to harass worker lines of terran and protoss in comparison to these silly mass adept shades that literally allow the protoss army to be in two places at once and the (for some strange reason) completely-unmentioned-but-serious-problem- liberators which can just totally shut down an entire mining base for minutes?
Parasitic bomb nerf sounds pretty much like "we haven't been seeing terrans and protoss turtling and massing air units and just a-moving to decimate zerg, so clearly we have to nerf parasitic bomb to let terran and protoss go back to these strategies that worked pretty easily even back when zerg had units called swarmhosts, remember them, which blizzard deleted from the game with their nerfing. why not make things fair and nerf one protoss unit and one terran unit into the ground to make sure they never get used either? I'd go with widow mine and disruptor for now, that would be satisfactory and restore some sensibility to the game. or, you could bring back the swarmhosts, but it's just so tough for Blizzard to ever admit any of their decisions were silly, which itself is a silly decision, though it will never be admitted as such. sigh... will there ever be a post that actually starts off something like "OK, we know the following 8 things are screwed up right now and we are definitely going to fix two of them now and the rest of them pretty soon because we know that most units can actually be balanced reasonably just by making small tweaks to the right attributes. sorry we haven't been doing that, but now we will and as a result things will improve faster and more people will want to play the game." the most sensible thing is to fix the newest units first but there are still problems from the previous expansion that have been ignored. doesn't look like I am far out in left field here as there are quite a large number of complaints and suggestions already here that many issues are being glossed over and not taken seriously enough.
on the bright side, the auto turret nerf was good, though two expansions too late.
User was warned for this post
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@Overcharge
What is the point of inscreasing time along with the energy? So the protoss players click less? MoCo just killed all kind of early aggressive moves vs protoss and it is definetly less fun not being able to harrass your opponent. The damage is just too much.
@Parasitic Bomb
Viper became the caster that has answer vs most units and infestor is still garbage. A guy here was suggested replacing infested terran skill with spawn scourges with complete removal of parasitic bomb. This looks like the best idea so far.
@Ravager Morph Time
Good call
@Lurker Morph Time
Worst call ever. Making broodlords will take less time for god sake!
@Hydras
They were useful only in zvp and after the intruduction of adept & distruptor they became completely thrash. Increasing its AA range seems to me a good idea along with the parasitic bomb nerf
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what I would like to see is that the disruptors movement speed gets significantly lowered so it's more of a positional unit than a deathball unit. Right now you can just amove your disruptor deathball across the map and shoot with them at everything that comes close.
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the tl;dr version of the blizzard update:
"We know about the things you dont like, but we are not going to change them."
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EPT
