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Source
Maps
The Legacy of the Void maps are surprisingly turning out much better than we had hoped. While not perfect, there have not been any major game breaking issues with any of the new maps yet. In the past for example, some new maps have had simple all-in strategies that one race could do in a specific matchup and it would be nearly impossible to stop between two players of equal skill levels. We’re definitely not seeing any of that yet.
What we like about the current map line up is the diversity in how the games play out. Having such different maps seems to be a super important fun factor to the game. We wanted to get your thoughts in this area as well, as we’ve begun to consider just pushing this specific map pool for Season 1 next year. Keep in mind though, that if one of these maps does turn out to be horrible in pro play, we definitely have the option to pull that map and replace with a map that we know works well. The general idea here is the same as it always has been: we want to push map diversity so that the game is more interesting to play and watch due to not every single map having the exact same build orders, attack timings, and strategies per matchup.
For Season 2, our current thought is to get another map contest going with a heavy focus on the map makers’ creativity, and continuing to push map diversity in a positive way. We’d like to have a bit more time to evaluate the community maps and really make sure that no new map coming in feels just like another map. The ideal for maps is to be in a state where there is no predefined standard map, but rather many unique maps that continue to arise thanks to community collaboration. Hopefully a map contest will help in achieving this!
Burrow Issue
Thanks for your feedback on the Burrow issue that causes units to not un-burrow properly when multiple Zerg unit types are selected. We have a fix for this and will try to update the balance test map when we update it soon with other balance changes.
Spawn Larva Inject Counter
Thank you for your suggestion. We agree that it could be better to have a counter showing how many injects are queued up. We don’t believe this is an urgent and critical issue or anything like that, but we will try to test this internally and hopefully put out a change sometime early next year.
Liberator Upgrade Icon
We agree that the icons displaying the upgraded state and the non-upgraded state do look pretty similar. Our art team will take a pass over this as well. Please keep in mind though that this is also not a game-breaking change or anything like that, so we won’t be rushing out a solution. We’ll prioritize these changes appropriately, so thanks again for your feedback on this.
Ultralisk
It sounds like there may be a lot of confusion here. We completely agree with those of you saying that Ultralisks weren’t underpowered in Heart of the Swarm. However, the goal of this change was to have Terran play be more interesting in the later stages of the game rather than Marine/Marauder/Medivacs being the answer for near all threats Zerg can bring out. We believe this is very important and will make the matchup a lot more exciting compared to how it’s been in the past.
Going a bit more into detail on this… When we see suggestions that Ultralisks’ total armor needs to be nerfed, we definitely see some examples of that seeming needed. We also see games however, where they are countered well due to counters being out already or players capitalizing on the fact that the Zerg is preparing for an Ultralisk tech-switch and dealing enough damage before the Ultralisks arrive that they remain even or ahead. So we’re not sure if there is a clear balance problem here or not, though it is definitely something that we should be keeping careful attention to. We just don’t want to be in a spot where we are too quick to nerf something, and the end goal to improve the game also gets lost.
Parasitic Bomb Strength
We agree that due to the current strength of this ability, we’re not seeing a lot of air unit interactions that we could. We’ve been discussing your suggestions as well as exploring potential redesigns such as adding friendly fire so that positioning and counter play is increased more. Currently, we don’t quite have a specific alignment on our end on this front, but we wanted to let you know that this is a topic that we’re aggressively discussing right now. An issue with Parasitic Bomb is that due to the threat of the ability, we’re not seeing a lot of air unit interaction in general, we wonder if the solve is as simple as a numbers nerf to see what happens, and then maybe we can go from there.
Automated Tournaments
We have been exploring your suggestions as well as what we’ve talked about at BlizzCon within our Automated Tournaments feature team, and we wanted to share our current thoughts on the topic so that we can keep the discussion open with you guys in order to eventually make the correct decision. Between your feedback and the participation data surrounding this feature, we are currently considering whether team tournaments should actually be the next step like we talked about at BlizzCon. We’re wondering now if increased engagement of the automated tournaments feature itself would be the best course. You guys have pointed out some ideas already such as: exploring potential viability of BO3 tournament formats, having more prestigious rewards, or re-evaluating how the finals of each tournament is done.
The main reasons we started to explore this route was due to your feedback and how much more difficult it would be to get arranged-team tournaments started. 1v1 tournaments already has barriers because of the set times, which we can’t change easily unless many more players play in this system due to potential match making issues.
Balance Test Map
Like we’ve been discussing over the past weeks, here are the things we’d like to potentially look at in the next balance test map:
- Photon Overcharge cost increased to 50, and duration increased to compensate.
- Disruptor +shields damage decrease and/or removal.
- Thor AA damage change to be flat (or increased base damage and decrease +light damage to have same total damage vs. light)
- Ravager or Lurker morph time increase
These are the items that we’ve trimmed down to so far, but remember that none of this is final for the balance test map and we would like to hear your thoughts on each of these ideas as well. The reasons for testing these changes are the same as when we discussed them since the release of LotV.
Thanks, and we look forward to hearing more of your feedback!
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Love most of what was stated (especially the maps), definitely a good step forward, though I'm worried about future balance changes.
As for the lurker change.... Well... at this point the game timer may as well be a minimum of 8 minuets before you can get lurkers out since that is what they are going for here.
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If these maps are turning out much better than they thought, their expectations can't have been that high, which leads me to question: Why use them?
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MapsThe Legacy of the Void maps are surprisingly turning out much better than we had hoped.
What a way to start.... The maps that everyone can't stop shitting on are BETTER than their expectations. Really? Lerilak Crest? Really Ulrena?? What did you have in mind exactly?
This is fucking hopeless.
Ultralisk
It sounds like there may be a lot of confusion here. We completely agree with those of you saying that Ultralisks weren’t underpowered in Heart of the Swarm. However, the goal of this change was to have Terran play be more interesting in the later stages of the game rather than Marine/Marauder/Medivacs being the answer for near all threats Zerg can bring out.
Fair enough, they're saying that at some point Terran has to transition from pure MMM. Okay. Into what exactly? Cyclones? Battlecruisers (which will do zero damage to the 8 armor Ultras...).
And what the fuck are Protoss supposed to do about it? 8 armor makes Carriers extremely ineffective in dealing with them.
I'm glad that spawn larva inject counter and the liberator's upgrade icon artwork are prioritized over things like "why is 44% of the ladder Zerg."
TLDR I'm fucking pissed.
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I don't think there is even a need for lurker nerf right now. ZvP was looking bad by Lurkers, but I feel like Protosses are dealing with it just fine. Now maybe Lurker rushes are destroying Protoss right now? Is that why they want to delay it? I haven't tried doing that yet so that would be interesting to know.
ZvT I haven't seen a single pro game yet with Lurker usage... If there is one plox link me.
In general a good overview of their thought process. I have been enjoying the lack of mass air as those styles have always been boring imo.
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Can we at least destroy Central Protocol from the map pool?
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The Lurker nerf is the only thing that really upsets me about this. They are already basically a T3 unit with how late they come out, and because of that it's hard to actually base strategies around it. The only option is to go ling-heavy until you can afford it in time for them to be effective... and they want to make them even later???
Ravager morph time, I completely understand.
PB: while I would hope that other races AA got buffed rather than PB nerfed, I'm okay with that too.
Ultras: If it is found out that they really are too strong, I'm okay with that too (although I'm not completely convinced of this quite yet, I've seen numerous games where the Zerg player would have been better off not going Ultras).
But damn.. Why target Lurkers right now....? It's already so hard to come up with strats that use them, and I really enjoy the play style of the unit... So frustrating
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On December 12 2015 03:55 Spyridon wrote:
Ultras: If it is found out that they really are too strong, I'm okay with that too (although I'm not completely convinced of this quite yet, I've seen numerous games where the Zerg player would have been better off not going Ultras).
The problem with Blizzard's reasoning is Terran still goes MMM, they just add Ghosts because any other viable counter are destroyed by Vipers.
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@Maps: Cool, matches my thoughts somewhat. Though I wouldn't mind if you would actually patch a map sometimes.
@Ultralisks: The problem is the double nerf/buff here. The split marauder attack would have already made Ultralisks more popular in HotS. 1 more armor for them would have already been very strong against marines in HotS. 2 more armor + the split marauder attack is just too much in my opinion.
I would like to see the ultralisk upgrade go down to +3 armor as soon as possible. If Terrans really figure out ways to deal with them consistently, so that ultralisks become too weak in Legacy, you can always rebuff them to +4 or take other actions.
@Parasitic Bomb: Fully agree that this ability is very strong and we only don't see it that often because people just don't go air against zerg to begin with. I think an interesting tweak would be to delay the effect by a few seconds after it hit, or start the damage off lower and increase it after a few seconds. This would work well with the ability to split the affected units away from others. Maybe that's not enough but it would be interesting and increase counterplay against the ability.
@Balance Changes:
Pylon Overcharge, good suggestion.
Disruptor, don't know since I don't play PvP.
Thor AA increase: I believe a moderate increase is the way too go. The Thor is a very strong unit in direct combat and one really has to look out that this unit doesn't become a counter to too many things with a bit of support. Armored Capital Ships like Broodlords, Battlecruisers and Carriers/Tempests have been one of the main counters to it so far. I don't think this should be turned upside down.
Ravager morph, agree completely. More tension when morphing them and a slight extra delay on rushes does seem like a fitting patch.
Lurker morph, I don't really see the issue. The unit is strong ZvZ and ZvP eventually, but already takes a long time to get out. I really think the unit is fine at the moment with the disruptor and viper being good counters against it and I don't think any patch to this unit is necessary at the moment.
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I really like how the first comment is about adding Spear of Adun abilities to Multiplayer... lol.
Damage ramp time for parasitic bomb sounds good.
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I like how even Blizzard expected the maps to be utter garbage
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Loving the slow and steady updates, the balance team is obviously just watching and waiting for the Korean tournaments to come out before making and unnecessary patches.
I disagree about the maps and Lurker morph times.
Lurker are strong but they are more of a defensive unit that take lots of time to tech to and more so just allows for a safer transition to Hive then some rofl stomp a move powerhouse, there is also lots of counter play available against them for all races.
Maps are pretty bad right now in my opinion, before any balance patches come out I'd prefer to see actual community designed maps (NOT Blizzard maps) as they play a huge role in balance and unit viability. Maps like Ulna/Prion Terrance/that one with the scrap yard station esque mains are just horrendous.
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Another week of no real changes or tests....... Would be nice to see balance map going live, so we can try things and not just talking about it without any specific details etc.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36990 Posts
On December 12 2015 04:11 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Loving the slow and steady updates, the balance team is obviously just watching and waiting for the Korean tournaments to come out before making and unnecessary patches.
Well then GSL and SSL 2016 Season 1 are going to be consist of a bunch of mindfucks.
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Map diversity is good, but right now the maps are too extreme and we can't even see how the actual balance is on most maps. So please do not use this map pool for S1.
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Overcharge nerf + Disruptor nerf + Carrier buff will totally ruin the beauty of current PvP :/.
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their desire for air unit interactions often translate into games with mass air as core, and i dont see how this is desirable at all
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the goal of this change was to have Terran play be more interesting in the later stages of the game rather than Marine/Marauder/Medivacs being the answer for near all threats Zerg can bring out. If this is the main reason for the Ultralisk buff, then you have already accomplished that by splitting the Marauder's shot into 2. What you did to TvZ was in fact a double buff to Zerg/ double nerf to Terran, all the while screwing PvZ and ZvZ as well.
We also see games however, where they are countered well due to counters being out already or players capitalizing on the fact that the Zerg is preparing for an Ultralisk tech-switch and dealing enough damage before the Ultralisks arrive that they remain even or ahead. So in order to deal with Ultralisks I should:
a) dump my resources preemptively on a tech unit that counters it on the off chance that the Zerg player goes Ultras, or
b) end the game before it gets there.
hmm......sounds suspicously alot like countering Mutalisks in PvZ.
As for ZvZ, in case you didn't notice, the match is volatile mix of Ling Baneling wars, into Roach/Ravager wars, into........you guessed it!!!!! ULTRA WARS!!! Who the hell enjoys that!!!
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On December 12 2015 04:27 Aocowns wrote:
their desire for air unit interactions often translate into games with mass air as core, and i dont see how this is desirable at all
It's not that they want to encourage air comps directly, but that parasitic bomb is too oppressive against air units in general.
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we’ve begun to consider just pushing this specific map pool for Season 1 next year
no stop please don't
not cool, not cool at all
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@Aocowns
As it stands now, Parasitic Bomb is a f#~*-all-your-air-units spell, and it shouldn't be as such. The spell needs to be a supportive spell that assists your actual army in dealing with enemy air units, not a spell that deletes all air units from the game, just like Fungal really. Perhaps the best action is to make PO none-stacking in damage. This should be more than enough of a change to keep the spell relevant while giving your oponent the opportunity to reduce its effect, just like dancing around/ out of a Psi-Storm.
Ohhhhh and by the way.....they think the map pool is great!!!!????
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Gold base maps aren't helping with zerg currently being strong, we need different maps.
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On December 12 2015 04:40 Jonsoload wrote:
@Aocowns
As it stands now, Parasitic Bomb is a f#~*-all-your-air-units spell, and it shouldn't be as such. The spell needs to be a supportive spell that assists your actual army in dealing with enemy air units, not a spell that deletes all air units from the game, just like Fungal really. Perhaps the best action is to make PO none-stacking in damage. This should be more than enough of a change to keep the spell relevant while giving your oponent the opportunity to reduce its effect, just like dancing around/ out of a Psi-Storm.
Ohhhhh and by the way.....they think the map pool is great!!!!????
Yep i agree, that would be by far the best change to parasitic bomb.
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Some of the maps are just straight up terrible, but I do agree that some provide interesting strategies, however, they all seem to be extremely Zerg favoured.
Overcharge nerf to 50 energy is too much and I fear that it will pigeon hole Protoss play, which is never a good thing.
I hope they remove +shields on Disruptors as I was really facepalming when they first implemented this. Some areas they wait too long to see how the meta game turns out and some areas they change immediately without giving a chance for the matchup to evolve. +vs Shields is one of these areas.
Thor vs Air, powerlevel is fine in non-zerg matchups it might be way too strong in TvZ. I don't like the change though, since it makes it very similar to the Liberator anti air attack.
Parasitic Bomb should've been changed to not stack ages ago and if it needs a buff in damage to compensate then so be it.
Ultralisks armour is one of the best changes in LotV it is finally a strong and feared unit, if Zerg late game needs to be nerfed they could remove Frenzy, or increase building costs of Ultralisk Cavern, or the armour upgrade. I think Ultras should actually have more armour without the upgrade, but end up with the same result. +4 armour in one upgrade is waaaay too much. Ultras are pretty bad without the upgrade and unstoppable with it.
- Still no talk about Chrono Boost ease of use.
- Should fix ramps, since destructible plates are STILL a super lazy band aid fix and while it's not the most important issue, it's still an issue.
- In Archon mode we should be able to see the screen of our comrade on the minimap, same as in the co-op mission.
There's plenty more overdue changes, but I'll stop here. With all this said and done, I want to say that LotV is a great game, to not just sound like a negative ass.
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On December 12 2015 04:31 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 04:27 Aocowns wrote:
their desire for air unit interactions often translate into games with mass air as core, and i dont see how this is desirable at all It's not that they want to encourage air comps directly, but that parasitic bomb is too oppressive against air units in general.
oh yeah i agree its probably too strong, i just meant in general. players who played shit like VR storm chargelot and whatever always gave me nightmares ;; same with mass carrier or raven/viking
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On December 12 2015 03:50 DinoMight wrote:What a way to start.... The maps that everyone can't stop shitting on are BETTER than their expectations. Really? Lerilak Crest? Really Ulrena?? What did you have in mind exactly? This is fucking hopeless. Show nested quote +Ultralisk
It sounds like there may be a lot of confusion here. We completely agree with those of you saying that Ultralisks weren’t underpowered in Heart of the Swarm. However, the goal of this change was to have Terran play be more interesting in the later stages of the game rather than Marine/Marauder/Medivacs being the answer for near all threats Zerg can bring out. Fair enough, they're saying that at some point Terran has to transition from pure MMM. Okay. Into what exactly? Cyclones? Battlecruisers (which will do zero damage to the 8 armor Ultras...). And what the fuck are Protoss supposed to do about it? 8 armor makes Carriers extremely ineffective in dealing with them. I'm glad that spawn larva inject counter and the liberator's upgrade icon artwork are prioritized over things like "why is 44% of the ladder Zerg." TLDR I'm fucking pissed.
You need to chill out man. The maps are ok balance wise and fun -- because they're different. The balance is skewed right now because nobody knew how to play the game at all. Most people (including a lot of pros) still don't know how to play the game. I always laugh when I heard people throwing complaints around when new stuff comes out that isn't normal.. but you're still throwing complaints around. Relax. Try new stuff. Watch pro games for specific things. Have you played 30 games vs a specific race or specific thing with a particular way of approaching it? Then decide if that way was incorrect, and go back to the drawing board.
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I'd love it if they made Lurkers easier to get but gave them stats that actually made sense.
If anything I they should do bonus damage vs light. Make them really strong against bio and Zealots. Or make the damage flat but lower.
I don't like how they do more damage to armored than light. That doesn't make sense to me. I want to see Lurkers shredding Marines.
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i really hope Blizz change the map pool
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Does Blizzard know that Parasitic Bomb damage stacks? Why won't they ever acknowledge that it does? It isn't like Psionic Storm.
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still waiting for the only that matter for me, the tank buff...still waiting...
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On December 12 2015 04:53 DinoMight wrote:
I'd love it if they made Lurkers easier to get but gave them stats that actually made sense.
If anything I they should do bonus damage vs light. Make them really strong against bio and Zealots. Or make the damage flat but lower.
I don't like how they do more damage to armored than light. That doesn't make sense to me. I want to see Lurkers shredding Marines.
How are lurker stats a problem?? It´s not like zerg´s can just walk into protoss death ball. Finally zerg can create areas where the opponent has to be careful not to a-move. I think the lurker is in a good place. You also never see lurkers against terran.
Edit: It has giant spikes!! Of course those will pierce armor 
Edit2: I think it´s great to have a unit that can force protoss out of the terrible blink-stalker fest that Hots was at the end.
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On December 12 2015 05:01 Garmer wrote:
still waiting for the only that matter for me, the tank buff...still waiting...
Don´t think that will be coming as long as we have liberators and medi-tanks.
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On December 12 2015 04:53 DinoMight wrote:
I'd love it if they made Lurkers easier to get but gave them stats that actually made sense.
If anything I they should do bonus damage vs light. Make them really strong against bio and Zealots. Or make the damage flat but lower.
I don't like how they do more damage to armored than light. That doesn't make sense to me. I want to see Lurkers shredding Marines.
I don't know why anything would do more damage against something that is armored than against something that isn't armored. Whatever sorts of materials those guys/aliens in the future are making their armors of, they are doing it wrong...
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Thanks Blizzard for yet another autocongratulating bullshit pseudo-feedback.
I laughed. The mappoo is fine, hahaha sure it is.
The ultralisk. Hahahha, yeah right now zerg is about surviving until T3 while building 3/3, and then spam 40% attack speed cracklings and 8 armor ultras until the oponent dies. Still nothing from blizzard.
The parasitic bomb : HA HA HA. Really guys you designed the worst and most punishing spell in SC2 history that makes the viper counter its counter, and you're still thinking about keeping it in the game? Really?
Let me repeat that. The viper. Counters. Its counter. HELLO? BLIZZARD? ANYONE?
Next update, the infestors will have a spell that for 20 energy make them immune to tank shots for 100 seconds.
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Having such different maps seems to be a super important fun factor to the game. We wanted to get your thoughts in this area as well, as we've begun to consider just pushing this specific map pool for Season 1 next year
No don't push this map pool please...... Ulrena, Prion Terrace and Lerilak Crest currently favoured for Zerg which is 3/7 of the map pool.
Zergs are going to win all the E-sports money, guaranteed.
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On December 12 2015 05:14 JackONeill wrote:
Let me repeat that. The viper. Counters. Its counter. HELLO? BLIZZARD? ANYONE?
logical fallacy much???
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On December 12 2015 05:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 05:14 JackONeill wrote:
Let me repeat that. The viper. Counters. Its counter. HELLO? BLIZZARD? ANYONE? logical fallacy much???
Its *HOTS counters :p
Also Templar and Ghosts are each others' counters and they both counter each other.
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I was hoping to see nukes get addressed. They were never that good in hots and they got even worse in lotv.
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On December 12 2015 05:45 royalroadweed wrote:
I was hoping to see nukes get addressed. They were never that good in hots and they got even worse in lotv.
Were they nerfed?
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On December 12 2015 05:49 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 05:45 royalroadweed wrote:
I was hoping to see nukes get addressed. They were never that good in hots and they got even worse in lotv. Were they nerfed?
You don't really get the bank you used to get in hots so dropping multiple ghost academies and building nukes is much more expensive.
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why increase lurker morph time? it already takes too long to get a lurker den out.
the only change that should go live ASAP is photon overcharge
everything else should stay as is imo. parasitic bomb too strong? split your air units, use feedback, snipe or vikings...
ravager time increase is fine imo, 9 seconds is really fast but 25/75/1 is a lot of early resources that you can't use for mutas or upgrades.
i'd rather nerfs/buffs happen once we see the koreans play
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Not sure what they are thinking about lurker time, but the rest is good.
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It sounds like there may be a lot of confusion here. We completely agree with those of you saying that Ultralisks weren’t underpowered in Heart of the Swarm. However, the goal of this change was to have Terran play be more interesting in the later stages of the game rather than Marine/Marauder/Medivacs being the answer for near all threats Zerg can bring out. We believe this is very important and will make the matchup a lot more exciting compared to how it’s been in the past.
This is the exact same 'logic' used to justify the queen range buff in WOL and the widow mine nerf in HotS. When will these people learn?
What am I saying? I must be an idiot. Let's test buffing DT speed to be 4.72 since Protoss lacks harassment capabilities.
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I understand the LOGIC for the Ultra buff.
They want us to have to make *something else* to kill them.
The problem is nothing fucking kills them. They have 8 armor JFC what are we supposed to do about them?
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On December 12 2015 04:08 Big J wrote:
@Maps: Cool, matches my thoughts somewhat. Though I wouldn't mind if you would actually patch a map sometimes.
@Ultralisks: The problem is the double nerf/buff here. The split marauder attack would have already made Ultralisks more popular in HotS. 1 more armor for them would have already been very strong against marines in HotS. 2 more armor + the split marauder attack is just too much in my opinion.
I would like to see the ultralisk upgrade go down to +3 armor as soon as possible. If Terrans really figure out ways to deal with them consistently, so that ultralisks become too weak in Legacy, you can always rebuff them to +4 or take other actions.
@Parasitic Bomb: Fully agree that this ability is very strong and we only don't see it that often because people just don't go air against zerg to begin with. I think an interesting tweak would be to delay the effect by a few seconds after it hit, or start the damage off lower and increase it after a few seconds. This would work well with the ability to split the affected units away from others. Maybe that's not enough but it would be interesting and increase counterplay against the ability.
@Balance Changes:
Pylon Overcharge, good suggestion.
Disruptor, don't know since I don't play PvP.
Thor AA increase: I believe a moderate increase is the way too go. The Thor is a very strong unit in direct combat and one really has to look out that this unit doesn't become a counter to too many things with a bit of support. Armored Capital Ships like Broodlords, Battlecruisers and Carriers/Tempests have been one of the main counters to it so far. I don't think this should be turned upside down.
Ravager morph, agree completely. More tension when morphing them and a slight extra delay on rushes does seem like a fitting patch.
Lurker morph, I don't really see the issue. The unit is strong ZvZ and ZvP eventually, but already takes a long time to get out. I really think the unit is fine at the moment with the disruptor and viper being good counters against it and I don't think any patch to this unit is necessary at the moment.
These are pretty good suggestions and I mostly agree with them.
Their design for ultralisks exposes much of what is wrong in SC2's lategame. In order to reduce the ubiquity of MMM compositions, they want ultralisks to hard counter MMM to force the terran to build the hard counter to ultralisks. Hard counters are one of the things that this game has done wrong since the beginning. I miss the stable late games of BW where the compositions are pretty much set and the game ends up revolving around micro and positioning, not transitioning repeatedly from rock to paper to scissors then back to rock. There are way too many instances in SC2 of players killing their own units to free up supply because their opponent has hard counters for their units and they need to build the hard counter to their opponents' units. Having to kill your own units to switch compositions is one of the dumbest mechanics in videogame history. Hard counters need to go away.
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On December 12 2015 06:13 DinoMight wrote:
I understand the LOGIC for the Ultra buff.
They want us to have to make *something else* to kill them.
The problem is nothing fucking kills them. They have 8 armor JFC what are we supposed to do about them?
Perhaps I should have said 'motive' instead? Back in WOL they claimed TvZ was balanced and the idea behind the queen buff was to make the match-up more diverse. But it was a straight up Zerg buff. Enter BL-Infestor. In HotS they claimed TvZ was balanced and the stated reason for the mine nerf was to promote diversity in the match-up by 'encouraging' Terran players to make tanks. Instead we have games of Bio-mine replaced with Bio. A straight nerf to Terran.
They just did it again. It's mind-blowing. If something is balanced, making it better/worse unbalances it. These people hurt my brain. It's like listening to a politician/corporate PR rep every time they say anything.
EDIT: @RaFox17: A) Your is a post about as low quality as 'first' posts. B) Considering it is relevant to the OP, it's perfectly legitimate to bring up.
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On December 12 2015 06:20 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 06:13 DinoMight wrote:
I understand the LOGIC for the Ultra buff.
They want us to have to make *something else* to kill them.
The problem is nothing fucking kills them. They have 8 armor JFC what are we supposed to do about them? Perhaps I should have said 'motive' instead? Back in WOL they claimed TvZ was balanced and the idea behind the queen buff was to make the match-up more diverse. But it was a straight up Zerg buff. Enter BL-Infestor. In HotS they claimed TvZ was balanced and the stated reason for the mine nerf was to promote diversity in the match-up by 'encouraging' Terran players to make tanks. Instead we have games of Bio-mine replaced with Bio. A straight nerf to Terran. They just did it again. It's mind-blowing. If something is balanced, making it better/worse unbalances it. These people hurt my brain. It's like listening to a politician/corporate PR rep every time they say anything.
Can we please stop bitching about the fucking queen buff?!?!?
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On December 12 2015 06:21 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 06:20 Bohemond wrote:On December 12 2015 06:13 DinoMight wrote:
I understand the LOGIC for the Ultra buff.
They want us to have to make *something else* to kill them.
The problem is nothing fucking kills them. They have 8 armor JFC what are we supposed to do about them? Perhaps I should have said 'motive' instead? Back in WOL they claimed TvZ was balanced and the idea behind the queen buff was to make the match-up more diverse. But it was a straight up Zerg buff. Enter BL-Infestor. In HotS they claimed TvZ was balanced and the stated reason for the mine nerf was to promote diversity in the match-up by 'encouraging' Terran players to make tanks. Instead we have games of Bio-mine replaced with Bio. A straight nerf to Terran. They just did it again. It's mind-blowing. If something is balanced, making it better/worse unbalances it. These people hurt my brain. It's like listening to a politician/corporate PR rep every time they say anything. Can we please stop bitching about the fucking queen buff?!?!?
some wounds never heal
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On December 12 2015 06:21 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 06:20 Bohemond wrote:On December 12 2015 06:13 DinoMight wrote:
I understand the LOGIC for the Ultra buff.
They want us to have to make *something else* to kill them.
The problem is nothing fucking kills them. They have 8 armor JFC what are we supposed to do about them? Perhaps I should have said 'motive' instead? Back in WOL they claimed TvZ was balanced and the idea behind the queen buff was to make the match-up more diverse. But it was a straight up Zerg buff. Enter BL-Infestor. In HotS they claimed TvZ was balanced and the stated reason for the mine nerf was to promote diversity in the match-up by 'encouraging' Terran players to make tanks. Instead we have games of Bio-mine replaced with Bio. A straight nerf to Terran. They just did it again. It's mind-blowing. If something is balanced, making it better/worse unbalances it. These people hurt my brain. It's like listening to a politician/corporate PR rep every time they say anything. Can we please stop bitching about the fucking queen buff?!?!?
Worst change ever. The only good thing that ever came form that is that voidrays not longer shit on zerg.
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Keeping the map pool!?! Are you crazy!? Havent you noticed everyone only plays like 2 maps in automated tournament? Dusk towers, obiral shipyard, and the large green one are by far the most popular. I hardly ever even play the other maps because everyone has them vetoed (i have none vetoed) essentially we have a map pool of 3 maps
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On December 12 2015 05:43 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 05:32 Big J wrote:On December 12 2015 05:14 JackONeill wrote:
Let me repeat that. The viper. Counters. Its counter. HELLO? BLIZZARD? ANYONE? logical fallacy much??? Its *HOTS counters :p Also Templar and Ghosts are each others' counters and they both counter each other.
Yeah, I understand that. But he uses language to make it sound ridiculous by explicitely not calling them "HotS counters" or something of that kind. With the outcome that the statement itself becomes ridiculous.
On December 12 2015 06:20 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 06:13 DinoMight wrote:
I understand the LOGIC for the Ultra buff.
They want us to have to make *something else* to kill them.
The problem is nothing fucking kills them. They have 8 armor JFC what are we supposed to do about them? Perhaps I should have said 'motive' instead? Back in WOL they claimed TvZ was balanced and the idea behind the queen buff was to make the match-up more diverse. But it was a straight up Zerg buff. Enter BL-Infestor. In HotS they claimed TvZ was balanced and the stated reason for the mine nerf was to promote diversity in the match-up by 'encouraging' Terran players to make tanks. Instead we have games of Bio-mine replaced with Bio. A straight nerf to Terran. They just did it again. It's mind-blowing. If something is balanced, making it better/worse unbalances it. These people hurt my brain. It's like listening to a politician/corporate PR rep every time they say anything. EDIT: @RaFox17: A) Your is a post about as low quality as 'first' posts. B) Considering it is relevant to the OP, it's perfectly legitimate to bring up.
That's just not true. The official statement read:
Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.
- We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
- We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.
Nowhere did blizzard make the claim that professional TvZ was balanced at that time.
But yeah, at this point fighting against the 100.000 myths "why blizzard did something" is becoming tedious. Everyone is just making up claims and they make full rounds in the community until you are the stupid one when you point them out.
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No word on mech viability, cyclones, anything on tanks or the discussion in community about tanks sucking?
And blizz update on 8 armor ultra/para bomb/ravager - "we think it could be possibly maybe a problem that we might solve possibly next update to see we'll wait and possibly change something upon inspection of possibly finding a chance of it maybe being too strong probably."
No word on invincible bullshit nydus worm being in this game still too.
k
p.s. what exactly is Terran supposed to make versus the current Zerg imba stuff late game? You just end up massing liberators 99% of your games which is utterly roflstomped by parasitic noskill bomb. You can't say Terran should make other units when 99% of those units are countered by para bomb and 8 armor ultras. Why is para bomb even in this game? It's a seeker missile on steroids man...like vikings were used before to counter vipers...and kill them. But now that you can just get parasitic bomb it leads to more turtle stalemate BS because once hive/vipers hit you can NEVER engage Zerg army ever because he'll instagib the units that are supposed to counter the viper....
Like it's just braindead to me why you would give the viper an ability that counters it's own counter. It would be like giving the marine a new splash damage ability that makes marines own banelings....like what the hell? That would be terrible because units that are meant to counter the marine in that case (banelings) wouldn't work and of course the game would be broken.
That's currently what parasitic bomb is - it makes it so the opponent does not even have an option to counter it once it hits the field. Vikings are utterly useless.
The other thing that really bothers me is how Blizzard dev team doesn't understand what the word iteration means. They should be patching constantly and tweaking and changing based off of feedback but they ignore 99% of community feedback or it feels like that.
Like how the hell do you honestly justify nerfing and buffing the pylon cannon in one patch? That's not iteration - that's just doing random shit and changing multiple variables at the same time on one thing. Like fuck. Make it 50 energy, dont increase the duration at the same time in the same patch. If the thing completely sucks balls after it's 50 energy, then consider another adjustment to it - THAT IS WHAT ITERATION IS. You don't just finally fix a problem with a change but then do a change in the other direction at the same time, that is non sense. Just hire me already blizzard please i'll have this game balanced within 3 months and with more strategic diversity than Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory has chocolate holy fuck.
Maybe when 99% of the ladder and this game are all Zerg blizzard will do something, for now as a player i am really frustrated i don't know about anyone else. Maybe it's just because Terran currently has the short end of the stick extremely hard and blizzard is trying to literally force the "spam bio units" meta upon every single player...it's really frustrating playing SC2 right now.
User was warned for this post
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On December 12 2015 06:13 DinoMight wrote:
I understand the LOGIC for the Ultra buff.
They want us to have to make *something else* to kill them.
The problem is nothing fucking kills them. They have 8 armor JFC what are we supposed to do about them?
Tge ipgrade is +4...so 7 armor
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That's just not true. The official statement read:
Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.
We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.
Nowhere did blizzard make the claim that professional TvZ was balanced at that time.
My mistake. I remember a lot of casters at the time saying the match-up was stale, and recalled that being Blizzard's view as well.
As for why Blizzard does things, that's quite the mystery. Since much of what they do doesn't seem to make sense or jibe with what they say.
On December 12 2015 06:47 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 06:13 DinoMight wrote:
I understand the LOGIC for the Ultra buff.
They want us to have to make *something else* to kill them.
The problem is nothing fucking kills them. They have 8 armor JFC what are we supposed to do about them? Tge ipgrade is +4...so 7 armor
They have a base armor of 1, so 1+3+4=8.
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On December 12 2015 06:16 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 04:08 Big J wrote:
@Maps: Cool, matches my thoughts somewhat. Though I wouldn't mind if you would actually patch a map sometimes.
@Ultralisks: The problem is the double nerf/buff here. The split marauder attack would have already made Ultralisks more popular in HotS. 1 more armor for them would have already been very strong against marines in HotS. 2 more armor + the split marauder attack is just too much in my opinion.
I would like to see the ultralisk upgrade go down to +3 armor as soon as possible. If Terrans really figure out ways to deal with them consistently, so that ultralisks become too weak in Legacy, you can always rebuff them to +4 or take other actions.
@Parasitic Bomb: Fully agree that this ability is very strong and we only don't see it that often because people just don't go air against zerg to begin with. I think an interesting tweak would be to delay the effect by a few seconds after it hit, or start the damage off lower and increase it after a few seconds. This would work well with the ability to split the affected units away from others. Maybe that's not enough but it would be interesting and increase counterplay against the ability.
@Balance Changes:
Pylon Overcharge, good suggestion.
Disruptor, don't know since I don't play PvP.
Thor AA increase: I believe a moderate increase is the way too go. The Thor is a very strong unit in direct combat and one really has to look out that this unit doesn't become a counter to too many things with a bit of support. Armored Capital Ships like Broodlords, Battlecruisers and Carriers/Tempests have been one of the main counters to it so far. I don't think this should be turned upside down.
Ravager morph, agree completely. More tension when morphing them and a slight extra delay on rushes does seem like a fitting patch.
Lurker morph, I don't really see the issue. The unit is strong ZvZ and ZvP eventually, but already takes a long time to get out. I really think the unit is fine at the moment with the disruptor and viper being good counters against it and I don't think any patch to this unit is necessary at the moment. These are pretty good suggestions and I mostly agree with them. Their design for ultralisks exposes much of what is wrong in SC2's lategame. In order to reduce the ubiquity of MMM compositions, they want ultralisks to hard counter MMM to force the terran to build the hard counter to ultralisks. Hard counters are one of the things that this game has done wrong since the beginning. I miss the stable late games of BW where the compositions are pretty much set and the game ends up revolving around micro and positioning, not transitioning repeatedly from rock to paper to scissors then back to rock. There are way too many instances in SC2 of players killing their own units to free up supply because their opponent has hard counters for their units and they need to build the hard counter to their opponents' units. Having to kill your own units to switch compositions is one of the dumbest mechanics in videogame history. Hard counters need to go away.
Well said!!!! I didnt play BW but that late game sound paradise compared to hard counter bs
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On December 12 2015 06:47 Bohemond wrote:Show nested quote +That's just not true. The official statement read:
Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.
We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.
Nowhere did blizzard make the claim that professional TvZ was balanced at that time. My mistake. I remember a lot of casters at the time saying the match-up was stale, and recalled that being Blizzard's view as well. As for why Blizzard does things, that's quite the mystery. Since much of what they do doesn't seem to make sense or jibe with what they say. Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 06:47 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:On December 12 2015 06:13 DinoMight wrote:
I understand the LOGIC for the Ultra buff.
They want us to have to make *something else* to kill them.
The problem is nothing fucking kills them. They have 8 armor JFC what are we supposed to do about them? Tge ipgrade is +4...so 7 armor They have a base armor of 1, so 1+3+4=8.
Ah ok, then you are probably mixing it up with the widow mine patch when a lot of people said the matchup was stale (MC wrote a long article about it), which had a similar, but less devastating effect on ZvT. There they actually argued that nerfing the mine and buffing the tank/mech upgrades would induce more diversity and Terrans would hopefully mix tanks and mines. Which didn't happen, but it was the start to mech viability in TvZ (together with the banshee buff and the hellbat rebuff) so they kind of got this right, even though Terran was a bit too weak for some time then.
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On December 12 2015 06:46 avilo wrote:
No word on mech viability, cyclones, anything on tanks or the discussion in community about tanks sucking?
And blizz update on 8 armor ultra/para bomb/ravager - "we think it could be possibly maybe a problem that we might solve possibly next update to see we'll wait and possibly change something upon inspection of possibly finding a chance of it maybe being too strong probably."
No word on invincible bullshit nydus worm being in this game still too.
k
p.s. what exactly is Terran supposed to make versus the current Zerg imba stuff late game? You just end up massing liberators 99% of your games which is utterly roflstomped by parasitic noskill bomb. You can't say Terran should make other units when 99% of those units are countered by para bomb and 8 armor ultras. Why is para bomb even in this game? It's a seeker missile on steroids man...like vikings were used before to counter vipers...and kill them. But now that you can just get parasitic bomb it leads to more turtle stalemate BS because once hive/vipers hit you can NEVER engage Zerg army ever because he'll instagib the units that are supposed to counter the viper....
Like it's just braindead to me why you would give the viper an ability that counters it's own counter. It would be like giving the marine a new splash damage ability that makes marines own banelings....like what the hell? That would be terrible because units that are meant to counter the marine in that case (banelings) wouldn't work and of course the game would be broken.
That's currently what parasitic bomb is - it makes it so the opponent does not even have an option to counter it once it hits the field. Vikings are utterly useless.
Maybe when 99% of the ladder and this game are all Zerg blizzard will do something, for now as a player i am really frustrated i don't know about anyone else. Maybe it's just because Terran currently has the short end of the stick extremely hard and blizzard is trying to literally force the "spam bio units" meta upon every single player...it's really frustrating playing SC2 right now.
Hate to break it to you but pure mech will never be as strong ss hots due to economy changes. Mech needs to take more bases and more quickly to get same army it did in HOTS
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On December 12 2015 06:56 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 06:46 avilo wrote:
No word on mech viability, cyclones, anything on tanks or the discussion in community about tanks sucking?
And blizz update on 8 armor ultra/para bomb/ravager - "we think it could be possibly maybe a problem that we might solve possibly next update to see we'll wait and possibly change something upon inspection of possibly finding a chance of it maybe being too strong probably."
No word on invincible bullshit nydus worm being in this game still too.
k
p.s. what exactly is Terran supposed to make versus the current Zerg imba stuff late game? You just end up massing liberators 99% of your games which is utterly roflstomped by parasitic noskill bomb. You can't say Terran should make other units when 99% of those units are countered by para bomb and 8 armor ultras. Why is para bomb even in this game? It's a seeker missile on steroids man...like vikings were used before to counter vipers...and kill them. But now that you can just get parasitic bomb it leads to more turtle stalemate BS because once hive/vipers hit you can NEVER engage Zerg army ever because he'll instagib the units that are supposed to counter the viper....
Like it's just braindead to me why you would give the viper an ability that counters it's own counter. It would be like giving the marine a new splash damage ability that makes marines own banelings....like what the hell? That would be terrible because units that are meant to counter the marine in that case (banelings) wouldn't work and of course the game would be broken.
That's currently what parasitic bomb is - it makes it so the opponent does not even have an option to counter it once it hits the field. Vikings are utterly useless.
Maybe when 99% of the ladder and this game are all Zerg blizzard will do something, for now as a player i am really frustrated i don't know about anyone else. Maybe it's just because Terran currently has the short end of the stick extremely hard and blizzard is trying to literally force the "spam bio units" meta upon every single player...it's really frustrating playing SC2 right now. Hate to break it to you but pure mech will never be as strong ss hots due to economy changes. Mech needs to take more bases and more quickly to get same army it did in HOTS
Mech can be fucking great and in a good place if they just buff the siege tank to trade well just like the liberator currently does. If mech had tanks that actually were scary you'd be able to attack more often and trade them for enemy units, instead of being forced to turtle in your own base till you have 10+ tanks.
The economy changes don't matter so much if they make the units stop sucking balls. Tanks suck right now for what they do and for the multitude of new counters in LOTV. Same goes for cyclones - cyclones actually are not even priced right atm by stats - marauder = 100/25/2 cyclone = 150/150/3 but marauder has 125 health cyclone has 120 health like what the fuck this is balance design 101 i don't even know how you can mess up a unit that badly.
The fact blizzard just completely ignores mech over and over in their updates is really depressing to a lot of the community that want more than just bio to be a strategy in SC2. One of their devs is really biased and tries in all his might to make only bio play viable because he perceives it as "action and excitement" not understanding the only reason why mech is turtly is because he continuously nerfs mech unit after mech unit after mech unit to the point the only way to play a different strategy than bio is to sit in your base for 30 min till 200/200.
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On December 12 2015 06:56 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 06:46 avilo wrote:
No word on mech viability, cyclones, anything on tanks or the discussion in community about tanks sucking?
And blizz update on 8 armor ultra/para bomb/ravager - "we think it could be possibly maybe a problem that we might solve possibly next update to see we'll wait and possibly change something upon inspection of possibly finding a chance of it maybe being too strong probably."
No word on invincible bullshit nydus worm being in this game still too.
k
p.s. what exactly is Terran supposed to make versus the current Zerg imba stuff late game? You just end up massing liberators 99% of your games which is utterly roflstomped by parasitic noskill bomb. You can't say Terran should make other units when 99% of those units are countered by para bomb and 8 armor ultras. Why is para bomb even in this game? It's a seeker missile on steroids man...like vikings were used before to counter vipers...and kill them. But now that you can just get parasitic bomb it leads to more turtle stalemate BS because once hive/vipers hit you can NEVER engage Zerg army ever because he'll instagib the units that are supposed to counter the viper....
Like it's just braindead to me why you would give the viper an ability that counters it's own counter. It would be like giving the marine a new splash damage ability that makes marines own banelings....like what the hell? That would be terrible because units that are meant to counter the marine in that case (banelings) wouldn't work and of course the game would be broken.
That's currently what parasitic bomb is - it makes it so the opponent does not even have an option to counter it once it hits the field. Vikings are utterly useless.
Maybe when 99% of the ladder and this game are all Zerg blizzard will do something, for now as a player i am really frustrated i don't know about anyone else. Maybe it's just because Terran currently has the short end of the stick extremely hard and blizzard is trying to literally force the "spam bio units" meta upon every single player...it's really frustrating playing SC2 right now. Hate to break it to you but pure mech will never be as strong ss hots due to economy changes. Mech needs to take more bases and more quickly to get same army it did in HOTS
But the same army it used it HotS wouldn't work anyhow. So who cares about the 'economy changes' (the econ change is really just a mandated change to maps, but whatever) in this case?
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On December 12 2015 06:16 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 04:08 Big J wrote:
@Maps: Cool, matches my thoughts somewhat. Though I wouldn't mind if you would actually patch a map sometimes.
@Ultralisks: The problem is the double nerf/buff here. The split marauder attack would have already made Ultralisks more popular in HotS. 1 more armor for them would have already been very strong against marines in HotS. 2 more armor + the split marauder attack is just too much in my opinion.
I would like to see the ultralisk upgrade go down to +3 armor as soon as possible. If Terrans really figure out ways to deal with them consistently, so that ultralisks become too weak in Legacy, you can always rebuff them to +4 or take other actions.
@Parasitic Bomb: Fully agree that this ability is very strong and we only don't see it that often because people just don't go air against zerg to begin with. I think an interesting tweak would be to delay the effect by a few seconds after it hit, or start the damage off lower and increase it after a few seconds. This would work well with the ability to split the affected units away from others. Maybe that's not enough but it would be interesting and increase counterplay against the ability.
@Balance Changes:
Pylon Overcharge, good suggestion.
Disruptor, don't know since I don't play PvP.
Thor AA increase: I believe a moderate increase is the way too go. The Thor is a very strong unit in direct combat and one really has to look out that this unit doesn't become a counter to too many things with a bit of support. Armored Capital Ships like Broodlords, Battlecruisers and Carriers/Tempests have been one of the main counters to it so far. I don't think this should be turned upside down.
Ravager morph, agree completely. More tension when morphing them and a slight extra delay on rushes does seem like a fitting patch.
Lurker morph, I don't really see the issue. The unit is strong ZvZ and ZvP eventually, but already takes a long time to get out. I really think the unit is fine at the moment with the disruptor and viper being good counters against it and I don't think any patch to this unit is necessary at the moment. These are pretty good suggestions and I mostly agree with them. Their design for ultralisks exposes much of what is wrong in SC2's lategame. In order to reduce the ubiquity of MMM compositions, they want ultralisks to hard counter MMM to force the terran to build the hard counter to ultralisks. Hard counters are one of the things that this game has done wrong since the beginning. I miss the stable late games of BW where the compositions are pretty much set and the game ends up revolving around micro and positioning, not transitioning repeatedly from rock to paper to scissors then back to rock. There are way too many instances in SC2 of players killing their own units to free up supply because their opponent has hard counters for their units and they need to build the hard counter to their opponents' units. Having to kill your own units to switch compositions is one of the dumbest mechanics in videogame history. Hard counters need to go away.
Yeah, there are areas where they really should look into hardcounters a little bit. In this specific scenario I also think it is kind of blatantly obvious that the current ultralisk is too strong vs bio, but if we give them benefit of the doubt, it's probably a fine line they need to walk here. The strategic development within a game gets always driven by something countering another thing, hence someone has to change what they are doing. And given that people know about the other ones capabilities, hardcounter units often become softcounters because people will take them into account to begin with. In case of the ultralisk I think it just renders bio too useless. Even Terrans that play with tanks and liberators in the midgame and then additionally add ghosts when ultras pop have trouble defending against them, much more they can hardly move out against them ever. There should be a certain level of preparedness that gives you an advantage if the opponent still transitions into what you try to counteract, which at the moment isn't really there with ultras. On the flipside, that preparedness should be more than what it was in HotS, i.e. having a few barracks with techlabs so you can produce marauders and having a few medivacs, so you can counterdrop and stall for a minute to if you really need to. That really doesn't take preparation to begin with.
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I'm really just confused as to why they say the map pool is doing great. No matter the stream I always see an All-In in Central Protocol, and Lerilak Crest seems universally hated, and everyone tries their hardest to either go to Dusk Towers or Orbital Shipyard, or Ulrena.
Didn't Blizzard say a month ago that Blink Stalker All-Ins were too strong on Ruins of Seras because they can blink from the 3rd to the main? I'm not sure why Blizzard is saying this map pool is doing great.
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On December 12 2015 07:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 06:16 andrewlt wrote:On December 12 2015 04:08 Big J wrote:
@Maps: Cool, matches my thoughts somewhat. Though I wouldn't mind if you would actually patch a map sometimes.
@Ultralisks: The problem is the double nerf/buff here. The split marauder attack would have already made Ultralisks more popular in HotS. 1 more armor for them would have already been very strong against marines in HotS. 2 more armor + the split marauder attack is just too much in my opinion.
I would like to see the ultralisk upgrade go down to +3 armor as soon as possible. If Terrans really figure out ways to deal with them consistently, so that ultralisks become too weak in Legacy, you can always rebuff them to +4 or take other actions.
@Parasitic Bomb: Fully agree that this ability is very strong and we only don't see it that often because people just don't go air against zerg to begin with. I think an interesting tweak would be to delay the effect by a few seconds after it hit, or start the damage off lower and increase it after a few seconds. This would work well with the ability to split the affected units away from others. Maybe that's not enough but it would be interesting and increase counterplay against the ability.
@Balance Changes:
Pylon Overcharge, good suggestion.
Disruptor, don't know since I don't play PvP.
Thor AA increase: I believe a moderate increase is the way too go. The Thor is a very strong unit in direct combat and one really has to look out that this unit doesn't become a counter to too many things with a bit of support. Armored Capital Ships like Broodlords, Battlecruisers and Carriers/Tempests have been one of the main counters to it so far. I don't think this should be turned upside down.
Ravager morph, agree completely. More tension when morphing them and a slight extra delay on rushes does seem like a fitting patch.
Lurker morph, I don't really see the issue. The unit is strong ZvZ and ZvP eventually, but already takes a long time to get out. I really think the unit is fine at the moment with the disruptor and viper being good counters against it and I don't think any patch to this unit is necessary at the moment. These are pretty good suggestions and I mostly agree with them. Their design for ultralisks exposes much of what is wrong in SC2's lategame. In order to reduce the ubiquity of MMM compositions, they want ultralisks to hard counter MMM to force the terran to build the hard counter to ultralisks. Hard counters are one of the things that this game has done wrong since the beginning. I miss the stable late games of BW where the compositions are pretty much set and the game ends up revolving around micro and positioning, not transitioning repeatedly from rock to paper to scissors then back to rock. There are way too many instances in SC2 of players killing their own units to free up supply because their opponent has hard counters for their units and they need to build the hard counter to their opponents' units. Having to kill your own units to switch compositions is one of the dumbest mechanics in videogame history. Hard counters need to go away. Yeah, there are areas where they really should look into hardcounters a little bit. In this specific scenario I also think it is kind of blatantly obvious that the current ultralisk is too strong vs bio, but if we give them benefit of the doubt, it's probably a fine line they need to walk here. The strategic development within a game gets always driven by something countering another thing, hence someone has to change what they are doing. And given that people know about the other ones capabilities, hardcounter units often become softcounters because people will take them into account to begin with. In case of the ultralisk I think it just renders bio too useless. Even Terrans that play with tanks and liberators in the midgame and then additionally add ghosts when ultras pop have trouble defending against them, much more they can hardly move out against them ever. There should be a certain level of preparedness that gives you an advantage if the opponent still transitions into what you try to counteract, which at the moment isn't really there with ultras. On the flipside, that preparedness should be more than what it was in HotS, i.e. having a few barracks with techlabs so you can produce marauders and having a few medivacs, so you can counterdrop and stall for a minute to if you really need to. That really doesn't take preparation to begin with.
I think that at the end of the day, TLO really hit the Ultralisk issue on the head. There is probably no way for it to be in a good place with its current design.
As for the hardcounters thing, one of the main issues is the developers trying to impose their intent of the players, rather than just letting the players innovate. Making a unit hardcounter another unit to tends to create a situation where innovation gets squashed.
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I don't get what Blizzard expects Terran to use vs Ultras. I'd like to hear what they're expecting to see (ghosts, I assume?). If they expect a tech switch, Terran has the hardest time doing that, but fair enough.
Problem is, tech switch into what? It can't be anything besides ghosts...right?
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On December 12 2015 07:12 p68 wrote:
I don't get what Blizzard expects Terran to use vs Ultras. I'd like to hear what they're expecting to see (ghosts, I assume?). If they expect a tech switch, Terran has the hardest time doing that, but fair enough.
Problem is, tech switch into what? It can't be anything besides ghosts...right?
Their hope was to make cyclones the thing....
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On December 12 2015 07:12 p68 wrote:
I don't get what Blizzard expects Terran to use vs Ultras. I'd like to hear what they're expecting to see (ghosts, I assume?). If they expect a tech switch, Terran has the hardest time doing that, but fair enough.
Problem is, tech switch into what? It can't be anything besides ghosts...right?
Well ghosts, as you say.
Then a lot of Terrans use tank/medivac combos throughout all of the game which is pretty decent because Zergs are mainly playing roach/ravager and tankivacs are pretty good for that.
Then there are liberators, which are easy to switch into because you have the tech anyways and additionally see a lot of play through all of the game, because they are good against mutas, good for harass and can be decent to hold ground pretty much regardless of the enemy compositon.
And there are some emergency tools that don't suck balls, like mass widow mines.
So where they are coming from when they say they see games in which terrans are doing fine against them makes sense. But I believe even a combination of those tools is not really enough at that moment, or rather, the combination of those tools is necessary but all of those tools are also counterable by the zerg and often force the terran into a very defensive position around a 3rd, 4th or 5th base while the zerg can take the map and eventually still overrun the terran.
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i said it once and i ll say it again
the real hope is in mods
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On December 12 2015 07:28 summerloud wrote:
i said it once and i ll say it again
the real hope is in mods
It is in BW.
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This community update pretty much looks like a situation report that you might present to your boss (or to outside interested parties), where rivers are filled with milk and everything else is made out of honey.
I wonder what the hell are they doing each and every day since the reality is totally different than what they try to present. The current map pool is a total disaster; nothing serious towards balancing units happened since early beta (we already know that most of the beta was wasted trying to implement mind-boggling economy changes); nothing serious is being tested post release, which makes me think, how (and why) the hell Blizzard tolerates such indolence and disrespect to their "job description)
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LOTV so much better than HOTS imo, I'm actually watching and interested in games.
I feel like there is so much more back and forth that there ever was, which is great. The games seem like like an honest match, (and don't last 40 fucking minutes).
Nice job.
As far as automated tournaments go, please implement a "team league" option. That would be a great format for tourneys, the cool thing about that is you don't have to invest more time than just one game, you teammates play the rest.
Part of the reason I don't play tourney is cause i don't want to invest the time.
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On December 12 2015 05:23 pr0n3d91 wrote:Show nested quote + Having such different maps seems to be a super important fun factor to the game. We wanted to get your thoughts in this area as well, as we've begun to consider just pushing this specific map pool for Season 1 next year No don't push this map pool please...... Ulrena, Prion Terrace and Lerilak Crest currently favoured for Zerg which is 3/7 of the map pool. Zergs are going to win all the E-sports money, guaranteed.
It has been three years, it's our turn =D
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Going a bit more into detail on this… When we see suggestions that Ultralisks’ total armor needs to be nerfed, we definitely see some examples of that seeming needed. We also see games however, where they are countered well due to counters being out already or players capitalizing on the fact that the Zerg is preparing for an Ultralisk tech-switch and dealing enough damage before the Ultralisks arrive that they remain even or ahead. So we’re not sure if there is a clear balance problem here or not, though it is definitely something that we should be keeping careful attention to. We just don’t want to be in a spot where we are too quick to nerf something, and the end goal to improve the game also gets lost.
Hard counters are bad. Five years into this game's life cycle, can we establish this as a hard fact?
Hard counters are bad. Universally.
Universally.
Globally.
All of the time.
There is not a time when hard counters are not bad.
Remember that time you made Banelings and Marines both counter each other, and everyone was like "holy shit TvZ is cool"?
Remember that time that Marine/Tank vs Tank produced 10/10 TvTs?
That was because those units soft counter each other.
Soft counter as in not hard counter.
Remember that time that people watched LotV TvP and PvP and said "holy shit Disruptors are cool"?
That was because Disruptors soft counter Stalkers/bio, and are soft countered by Stalkers/bio in response.
Remember that time the Colossus was a shitty unit? You guessed it! That's because the situations where it was very effective against bio were much more frequent than situations where the opposite was true!
This isn't a conspiracy. This isn't a trick. It really is that simple.
Also Colossi sucked because they were braindead A+move units.
Kind of like Ultralisks.
Which you have now made into a hard counter to Marines and Marauders.
So to recap.
A+move = bad. Micro = good.
Hard counter = bad. Soft counter = good.
HotS Ultra = bad.
LotV Ultra = fucking kill it with fire.
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On December 12 2015 07:47 ShambhalaWar wrote:
LOTV so much better than HOTS imo, I'm actually watching and interested in games.
I feel like there is so much more back and forth that there ever was, which is great. The games seem like like an honest match, (and don't last 40 fucking minutes).
Nice job.
As far as automated tournaments go, please implement a "team league" option. That would be a great format for tourneys, the cool thing about that is you don't have to invest more time than just one game, you teammates play the rest.
Part of the reason I don't play tourney is cause i don't want to invest the time.
Long games are the most exciting most of the time, idk what you are talking about
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On December 12 2015 06:49 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 06:16 andrewlt wrote:On December 12 2015 04:08 Big J wrote:
@Maps: Cool, matches my thoughts somewhat. Though I wouldn't mind if you would actually patch a map sometimes.
@Ultralisks: The problem is the double nerf/buff here. The split marauder attack would have already made Ultralisks more popular in HotS. 1 more armor for them would have already been very strong against marines in HotS. 2 more armor + the split marauder attack is just too much in my opinion.
I would like to see the ultralisk upgrade go down to +3 armor as soon as possible. If Terrans really figure out ways to deal with them consistently, so that ultralisks become too weak in Legacy, you can always rebuff them to +4 or take other actions.
@Parasitic Bomb: Fully agree that this ability is very strong and we only don't see it that often because people just don't go air against zerg to begin with. I think an interesting tweak would be to delay the effect by a few seconds after it hit, or start the damage off lower and increase it after a few seconds. This would work well with the ability to split the affected units away from others. Maybe that's not enough but it would be interesting and increase counterplay against the ability.
@Balance Changes:
Pylon Overcharge, good suggestion.
Disruptor, don't know since I don't play PvP.
Thor AA increase: I believe a moderate increase is the way too go. The Thor is a very strong unit in direct combat and one really has to look out that this unit doesn't become a counter to too many things with a bit of support. Armored Capital Ships like Broodlords, Battlecruisers and Carriers/Tempests have been one of the main counters to it so far. I don't think this should be turned upside down.
Ravager morph, agree completely. More tension when morphing them and a slight extra delay on rushes does seem like a fitting patch.
Lurker morph, I don't really see the issue. The unit is strong ZvZ and ZvP eventually, but already takes a long time to get out. I really think the unit is fine at the moment with the disruptor and viper being good counters against it and I don't think any patch to this unit is necessary at the moment. These are pretty good suggestions and I mostly agree with them. Their design for ultralisks exposes much of what is wrong in SC2's lategame. In order to reduce the ubiquity of MMM compositions, they want ultralisks to hard counter MMM to force the terran to build the hard counter to ultralisks. Hard counters are one of the things that this game has done wrong since the beginning. I miss the stable late games of BW where the compositions are pretty much set and the game ends up revolving around micro and positioning, not transitioning repeatedly from rock to paper to scissors then back to rock. There are way too many instances in SC2 of players killing their own units to free up supply because their opponent has hard counters for their units and they need to build the hard counter to their opponents' units. Having to kill your own units to switch compositions is one of the dumbest mechanics in videogame history. Hard counters need to go away. Well said!!!! I didnt play BW but that late game sound paradise compared to hard counter bs
While I completely agree that hard counters are bad for the health of the game, BW late game isn't the best example, especailly when it comes to Ultras. Ultras + Dark Swarm countered bio a hell of a lot harder in BW than Ultras counter anything right now.
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On December 12 2015 07:55 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 07:47 ShambhalaWar wrote:
LOTV so much better than HOTS imo, I'm actually watching and interested in games.
I feel like there is so much more back and forth that there ever was, which is great. The games seem like like an honest match, (and don't last 40 fucking minutes).
Nice job.
As far as automated tournaments go, please implement a "team league" option. That would be a great format for tourneys, the cool thing about that is you don't have to invest more time than just one game, you teammates play the rest.
Part of the reason I don't play tourney is cause i don't want to invest the time. Long games are the most exciting most of the time, idk what you are talking about
The missing qualifier is, "My opinion is... ____________"
I'm sure you said that of all the turtle mech and swarm host games.
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On December 12 2015 08:03 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 06:49 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:On December 12 2015 06:16 andrewlt wrote:On December 12 2015 04:08 Big J wrote:
@Maps: Cool, matches my thoughts somewhat. Though I wouldn't mind if you would actually patch a map sometimes.
@Ultralisks: The problem is the double nerf/buff here. The split marauder attack would have already made Ultralisks more popular in HotS. 1 more armor for them would have already been very strong against marines in HotS. 2 more armor + the split marauder attack is just too much in my opinion.
I would like to see the ultralisk upgrade go down to +3 armor as soon as possible. If Terrans really figure out ways to deal with them consistently, so that ultralisks become too weak in Legacy, you can always rebuff them to +4 or take other actions.
@Parasitic Bomb: Fully agree that this ability is very strong and we only don't see it that often because people just don't go air against zerg to begin with. I think an interesting tweak would be to delay the effect by a few seconds after it hit, or start the damage off lower and increase it after a few seconds. This would work well with the ability to split the affected units away from others. Maybe that's not enough but it would be interesting and increase counterplay against the ability.
@Balance Changes:
Pylon Overcharge, good suggestion.
Disruptor, don't know since I don't play PvP.
Thor AA increase: I believe a moderate increase is the way too go. The Thor is a very strong unit in direct combat and one really has to look out that this unit doesn't become a counter to too many things with a bit of support. Armored Capital Ships like Broodlords, Battlecruisers and Carriers/Tempests have been one of the main counters to it so far. I don't think this should be turned upside down.
Ravager morph, agree completely. More tension when morphing them and a slight extra delay on rushes does seem like a fitting patch.
Lurker morph, I don't really see the issue. The unit is strong ZvZ and ZvP eventually, but already takes a long time to get out. I really think the unit is fine at the moment with the disruptor and viper being good counters against it and I don't think any patch to this unit is necessary at the moment. These are pretty good suggestions and I mostly agree with them. Their design for ultralisks exposes much of what is wrong in SC2's lategame. In order to reduce the ubiquity of MMM compositions, they want ultralisks to hard counter MMM to force the terran to build the hard counter to ultralisks. Hard counters are one of the things that this game has done wrong since the beginning. I miss the stable late games of BW where the compositions are pretty much set and the game ends up revolving around micro and positioning, not transitioning repeatedly from rock to paper to scissors then back to rock. There are way too many instances in SC2 of players killing their own units to free up supply because their opponent has hard counters for their units and they need to build the hard counter to their opponents' units. Having to kill your own units to switch compositions is one of the dumbest mechanics in videogame history. Hard counters need to go away. Well said!!!! I didnt play BW but that late game sound paradise compared to hard counter bs While I completely agree that hard counters are bad for the health of the game, BW late game isn't the best example, especailly when it comes to Ultras. Ultras + Dark Swarm countered bio a hell of a lot harder in BW than Ultras counter anything right now.
I dunno. Ultras + Blinding Cloud/PB makes a pretty good case.
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On December 12 2015 08:13 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 07:55 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:On December 12 2015 07:47 ShambhalaWar wrote:
LOTV so much better than HOTS imo, I'm actually watching and interested in games.
I feel like there is so much more back and forth that there ever was, which is great. The games seem like like an honest match, (and don't last 40 fucking minutes).
Nice job.
As far as automated tournaments go, please implement a "team league" option. That would be a great format for tourneys, the cool thing about that is you don't have to invest more time than just one game, you teammates play the rest.
Part of the reason I don't play tourney is cause i don't want to invest the time. Long games are the most exciting most of the time, idk what you are talking about The missing qualifier is, "My opinion is... ____________" I'm sure you said that of all the turtle mech and swarm host games.
What a hippocrit. You said nothing about your opinion when you complained about the game length. And notice i said "most" of the time. Mech and swarmhost were obviously exceptions
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I honestly don't know why I waste time reading through the comments in these threads. It's like I expect to see some rational discussions and positive feedback.
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At least they finally acknowlegded ultras and pb are a problem I feared they would never do it.
but yeah, as already mentioned hardcounters are bad and the current ultras are the most extreme form of hardcounters we ever had. When zerg had to produce their units one at a time it might be okay but the problem is that zerg can just spawn 10 ultras at once. To expect terrans to be always prepared for that is very far stretched.
Not to mention even if you have mass ghost liberator, a mass ultra viper infestor army is extremely hard to beat.
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On December 12 2015 03:50 blade55555 wrote:
I don't think there is even a need for lurker nerf right now. ZvP was looking bad by Lurkers, but I feel like Protosses are dealing with it just fine. Now maybe Lurker rushes are destroying Protoss right now? Is that why they want to delay it? I haven't tried doing that yet so that would be interesting to know.
ZvT I haven't seen a single pro game yet with Lurker usage... If there is one plox link me.
In general a good overview of their thought process. I have been enjoying the lack of mass air as those styles have always been boring imo.
I agree somewhat. I think late game tech switches are a bigger problem than lurkers. If lurkers were a problem I think tweaking disruptors so they 1 shot them while burrowed (probably would have to be something arbitrary and silly like +x to burrowed units but whatevs) would be a better solution than a nerf to the lurker itself.
I like the idea of parasitic bomb dealing friendly fire. Maybe we'll see erasers again ^^
I just flat out disagree about a couple maps. I like diversity but destructible rocks into the main are a bad idea, especially on a map with an exposed third.
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Maps : ha ha ha. No thanks, don't use this map pool for season 1. Those maps aren't even half decent.
Balance test map : the proposed changes seem kinda okayish. Where is the carrier build time buff though ?
I don't really have an opinion about the rest, which doesn't affect P match-ups a lot.
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On December 12 2015 09:04 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Maps : ha ha ha. No thanks, don't use this map pool for season 1. Those maps aren't even half decent.
Balance test map : the proposed changes seem kinda okayish. Where is the carrier build time buff though ?
I don't really have an opinion about the rest, which doesn't affect P match-ups a lot.
Oh yeah, that's actually interesting that they didn't say a word about the carrier rebuff... :S
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Ghosts expensive as fuck and snipe doesn't fire if a frickin zergling so much as breathes near them. And it's stupid to have to build a unit just to hard counter another races unit. it's the same vs Protoss (Templar) -- Terran is only building this expensive unit to counter another race's unit. You don't ever build Ghosts vs Zerg or Protoss unless they have Templar or Ultralisks -- seems silly.
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How exactly can you push Lurker even further behind? Its already alot of "Fun" playing lurker. Constantly watching your Lurker die against Disruptor shots. Or engaging with Lurker: Move forward, burrow. BLINK away. Repeating of course.
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friendly fire on PB would do nothing. zerg would just cast pb and then pull back like terrans did with seeker missile.
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On December 12 2015 08:18 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 08:03 Spyridon wrote:On December 12 2015 06:49 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:On December 12 2015 06:16 andrewlt wrote:On December 12 2015 04:08 Big J wrote:
@Maps: Cool, matches my thoughts somewhat. Though I wouldn't mind if you would actually patch a map sometimes.
@Ultralisks: The problem is the double nerf/buff here. The split marauder attack would have already made Ultralisks more popular in HotS. 1 more armor for them would have already been very strong against marines in HotS. 2 more armor + the split marauder attack is just too much in my opinion.
I would like to see the ultralisk upgrade go down to +3 armor as soon as possible. If Terrans really figure out ways to deal with them consistently, so that ultralisks become too weak in Legacy, you can always rebuff them to +4 or take other actions.
@Parasitic Bomb: Fully agree that this ability is very strong and we only don't see it that often because people just don't go air against zerg to begin with. I think an interesting tweak would be to delay the effect by a few seconds after it hit, or start the damage off lower and increase it after a few seconds. This would work well with the ability to split the affected units away from others. Maybe that's not enough but it would be interesting and increase counterplay against the ability.
@Balance Changes:
Pylon Overcharge, good suggestion.
Disruptor, don't know since I don't play PvP.
Thor AA increase: I believe a moderate increase is the way too go. The Thor is a very strong unit in direct combat and one really has to look out that this unit doesn't become a counter to too many things with a bit of support. Armored Capital Ships like Broodlords, Battlecruisers and Carriers/Tempests have been one of the main counters to it so far. I don't think this should be turned upside down.
Ravager morph, agree completely. More tension when morphing them and a slight extra delay on rushes does seem like a fitting patch.
Lurker morph, I don't really see the issue. The unit is strong ZvZ and ZvP eventually, but already takes a long time to get out. I really think the unit is fine at the moment with the disruptor and viper being good counters against it and I don't think any patch to this unit is necessary at the moment. These are pretty good suggestions and I mostly agree with them. Their design for ultralisks exposes much of what is wrong in SC2's lategame. In order to reduce the ubiquity of MMM compositions, they want ultralisks to hard counter MMM to force the terran to build the hard counter to ultralisks. Hard counters are one of the things that this game has done wrong since the beginning. I miss the stable late games of BW where the compositions are pretty much set and the game ends up revolving around micro and positioning, not transitioning repeatedly from rock to paper to scissors then back to rock. There are way too many instances in SC2 of players killing their own units to free up supply because their opponent has hard counters for their units and they need to build the hard counter to their opponents' units. Having to kill your own units to switch compositions is one of the dumbest mechanics in videogame history. Hard counters need to go away. Well said!!!! I didnt play BW but that late game sound paradise compared to hard counter bs While I completely agree that hard counters are bad for the health of the game, BW late game isn't the best example, especailly when it comes to Ultras. Ultras + Dark Swarm countered bio a hell of a lot harder in BW than Ultras counter anything right now. I dunno. Ultras + Blinding Cloud/PB makes a pretty good case.
Ultras + Dark Swarm countered a higher % of Terran units in BW than it does in SC2.
Also, BW's Devourer acid + scourge >SC2's PB, and air units were not nearly as strong as they are in SC2, so strong anti air is needed even more than it was in BW.
Which is exactly why I think PB should be the "norm" and Terran/Protoss should have anti air just as strong. But apparently they want air super strong by design...
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On December 12 2015 08:32 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 08:13 ShambhalaWar wrote:On December 12 2015 07:55 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:On December 12 2015 07:47 ShambhalaWar wrote:
LOTV so much better than HOTS imo, I'm actually watching and interested in games.
I feel like there is so much more back and forth that there ever was, which is great. The games seem like like an honest match, (and don't last 40 fucking minutes).
Nice job.
As far as automated tournaments go, please implement a "team league" option. That would be a great format for tourneys, the cool thing about that is you don't have to invest more time than just one game, you teammates play the rest.
Part of the reason I don't play tourney is cause i don't want to invest the time. Long games are the most exciting most of the time, idk what you are talking about The missing qualifier is, "My opinion is... ____________" I'm sure you said that of all the turtle mech and swarm host games. What a hippocrit. You said nothing about your opinion when you complained about the game length. And notice i said "most" of the time. Mech and swarmhost were obviously exceptions
"LOTV so much better than HOTS imo, I'm actually watching and interested in games. "
IMO means, "In my opinion."
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Remember that time you made Banelings and Marines both counter each other, and everyone was like "holy shit TvZ is cool"?
That's actually not as much hardcounters you are talking about as micro-interactions. The issue with the Ultralisks is mainly in the way it counters unit.... By a-moving and the way to counter Ultralisks is through Ghosts which first and foremost is 10 times more difficult for the terran to execute and also makes the army very deathballish.
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Still can't figure out who the hell is complaining about lurkers. They look almost useless in pro games (I haven't seen a single one where they traded efficiently), and I can't find an efficient way to integrate them with their long ass build time and relatively weak damage and range. Is this coming from Diamond shitters who aren't used to playing vs stuff that can be invisible?
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On December 12 2015 10:00 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Remember that time you made Banelings and Marines both counter each other, and everyone was like "holy shit TvZ is cool"? That's actually not as much hardcounters you are talking about as micro-interactions. The issue with the Ultralisks is mainly in the way it counters unit.... By a-moving and the way to counter Ultralisks is through Ghosts which first and foremost is 10 times more difficult for the terran to execute and also makes the army very deathballish.
I don't disagree with anything you said, but at the end of the day that's what soft countering is. Marines are great against Banes if Marines are microed and Banes aren't. Banes are great against Marines if Banes are microed and Marines aren't. And when both are microed, we're in for a proper game of StarCraft.
As you say, Ultras skew the micro requirement against Terran to a nonsensical degree. If Blizzard wants more units used in TvZ, they need to buff those units to make Terrans want to get them. This is pretty straight forward. Liberators don't suck = Liberators get used. Ghosts suck (outside of vs Ultras) = Ghosts are not used. Make Ghosts suck less and I promise people will make them!
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Really sad that they don't see any problem with the maps 
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On December 12 2015 09:48 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 08:32 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:On December 12 2015 08:13 ShambhalaWar wrote:On December 12 2015 07:55 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:On December 12 2015 07:47 ShambhalaWar wrote:
LOTV so much better than HOTS imo, I'm actually watching and interested in games.
I feel like there is so much more back and forth that there ever was, which is great. The games seem like like an honest match, (and don't last 40 fucking minutes).
Nice job.
As far as automated tournaments go, please implement a "team league" option. That would be a great format for tourneys, the cool thing about that is you don't have to invest more time than just one game, you teammates play the rest.
Part of the reason I don't play tourney is cause i don't want to invest the time. Long games are the most exciting most of the time, idk what you are talking about The missing qualifier is, "My opinion is... ____________" I'm sure you said that of all the turtle mech and swarm host games. What a hippocrit. You said nothing about your opinion when you complained about the game length. And notice i said "most" of the time. Mech and swarmhost were obviously exceptions "LOTV so much better than HOTS imo, I'm actually watching and interested in games. " IMO means, "In my opinion."
Usually when a person states their opinion, it's generally understood that they are stating their opinion. Thus for convenience sake it may be omitted.
For example, if I say "Clark Gable was a bad actor," is it generally understood that I'm saying "In my opinion Clark Gable was a bad actor," not "It is an irrefutable truth of the universe that Clark Gable was a bad actor." Clearly he was saying that it was merely his opinion that long games are most exciting.
You on the other hand made a terrible mistake, which I am kind enough to fix for you here:
In my opinion the missing qualifier in your statement is, "My opinion is... ____________"
I'm sure you said that of all the turtle mech and swarm host games.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
On December 12 2015 04:25 ZAiNs wrote:
Overcharge nerf + Disruptor nerf + Carrier buff will totally ruin the beauty of current PvP :/.
said no-one ever
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On December 12 2015 11:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 04:25 ZAiNs wrote:
Overcharge nerf + Disruptor nerf + Carrier buff will totally ruin the beauty of current PvP :/. said no-one ever
I'll say it. I've only seen a single relatively high level PvP series in LotV and it had tons of potential. I sincerely hope we're still trying to tweak that playstyle, and not push it aside for coin flip "creativity."
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On December 12 2015 11:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 04:25 ZAiNs wrote:
Overcharge nerf + Disruptor nerf + Carrier buff will totally ruin the beauty of current PvP :/. said no-one ever
Said every Protoss progamer who played the beta when Carrier vs Carrier was the norm...
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On December 12 2015 04:11 Solar424 wrote:
I like how even Blizzard expected the maps to be utter garbage
Hahaha, definitely a weird formulation from D.Kim :D.
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"no major game breaking issues with the new maps" is like saying "well, world war 3 hasn't broken out so everything is peaceful everywhere". there is at least one particular map, which has a large high ground space above the mineral line of the most obvious 3rd base on the map and I have witnessed top players complaining directly about this on their streams. Stop spin doctoring these responses which always downplay the problems...
Ultralisks not underpowered ? no, they just die almost immediately to stimmed bio kiting, top zergs almost never teched to ultras because they never had the resources to do it while being widow mine kited to death. And now 2-3 disruptor shots can kill a pack of them instantly, so of course we must nerf their armor because these damned zerg units are just not dying fast enough like every other zerg unit does. While this goes on we have seen countless games of turtling terran and protoss absolutely decimating entire zerg armies with nearly no losses and never a thought from blizzard of nerfing these kinds of strategies. How about nerf the bloody disruptors, wasn't anyone from blizzard watching the mindboggling back and forth stalker disruptor dances at the Dreamhack tournament? your opponent makes disruptors, you simply can't attack them because if you lose 20-50% of your army in one shot you just lose the game to a-moving. any thoughts on this Blizzard or is everything A- OK hunky dory on the disruptor issue?? since no mention of it here, therefore it's being ignored despite it being a major issue.
double buff to zerg and double nerf to terran for the ultra issue? well, it still leaves zerg far behind considering the QUADRUPLE BUFF terran got at the start of HOTS with reaper heal, widow mines, hellbats and speed boosted medivacs all playing havoc on zerg who could easily answer with... ummm... absolutely nothing but desperately inventive play, improved scouting, nailbiting holds and possibly just blind countering because the strategies were so overpowered that every terran was using them pretty much automatically. That was incredibly fair, Blizzard. that has been made worse now with the reaper bombs. and where, exactly, is zerg getting the ability to harass worker lines of terran and protoss in comparison to these silly mass adept shades that literally allow the protoss army to be in two places at once and the (for some strange reason) completely-unmentioned-but-serious-problem- liberators which can just totally shut down an entire mining base for minutes?
Parasitic bomb nerf sounds pretty much like "we haven't been seeing terrans and protoss turtling and massing air units and just a-moving to decimate zerg, so clearly we have to nerf parasitic bomb to let terran and protoss go back to these strategies that worked pretty easily even back when zerg had units called swarmhosts, remember them, which blizzard deleted from the game with their nerfing. why not make things fair and nerf one protoss unit and one terran unit into the ground to make sure they never get used either? I'd go with widow mine and disruptor for now, that would be satisfactory and restore some sensibility to the game. or, you could bring back the swarmhosts, but it's just so tough for Blizzard to ever admit any of their decisions were silly, which itself is a silly decision, though it will never be admitted as such. sigh... will there ever be a post that actually starts off something like "OK, we know the following 8 things are screwed up right now and we are definitely going to fix two of them now and the rest of them pretty soon because we know that most units can actually be balanced reasonably just by making small tweaks to the right attributes. sorry we haven't been doing that, but now we will and as a result things will improve faster and more people will want to play the game." the most sensible thing is to fix the newest units first but there are still problems from the previous expansion that have been ignored. doesn't look like I am far out in left field here as there are quite a large number of complaints and suggestions already here that many issues are being glossed over and not taken seriously enough.
on the bright side, the auto turret nerf was good, though two expansions too late.
User was warned for this post
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@Overcharge
What is the point of inscreasing time along with the energy? So the protoss players click less? MoCo just killed all kind of early aggressive moves vs protoss and it is definetly less fun not being able to harrass your opponent. The damage is just too much.
@Parasitic Bomb
Viper became the caster that has answer vs most units and infestor is still garbage. A guy here was suggested replacing infested terran skill with spawn scourges with complete removal of parasitic bomb. This looks like the best idea so far.
@Ravager Morph Time
Good call
@Lurker Morph Time
Worst call ever. Making broodlords will take less time for god sake!
@Hydras
They were useful only in zvp and after the intruduction of adept & distruptor they became completely thrash. Increasing its AA range seems to me a good idea along with the parasitic bomb nerf
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what I would like to see is that the disruptors movement speed gets significantly lowered so it's more of a positional unit than a deathball unit. Right now you can just amove your disruptor deathball across the map and shoot with them at everything that comes close.
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the tl;dr version of the blizzard update:
"We know about the things you dont like, but we are not going to change them."
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On December 12 2015 12:39 Aegwynn wrote:
@Overcharge
What is the point of inscreasing time along with the energy? So the protoss players click less? MoCo just killed all kind of early aggressive moves vs protoss and it is definetly less fun not being able to harrass your opponent. The damage is just too much.
The point is so toss have less burst DPS, and have to actually consider if they really want to use overcharge. I have seen pro's overcharge pylons to kill a single zergling, and I am not even making that up. In HotS no toss would be stupid enough to do that, simply because the energy cost was much too high to do that.
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On December 12 2015 17:29 RoomOfMush wrote:
the tl;dr version of the blizzard update:
"We know about the things you dont like, but we are not going to change them."
=> that exactly.
What they basically said about the ultra is "terrans can manage to deal some damage when the zerg is transitioning ultras.". No shit sherlock, most pro zergs still die to mid game against terran. But not because they're rofltomped by a single unit, because the economy and the compositions have changed (terran got bio figured out, while zergs still learn to use ravagers). However, just watch soulkey playing, ffs. When he reaches T3 without dying, he just masses lings and ultras until the terran dies. Just lings and ultras, nothing else. Because terran has no real counter.
- thors can't really be used because you've got to go bio
- tanks are still terrible
- marauders are atrocious, they deal like 10 damage with +3 atk
- ghosts... let's talk about it. The snipe deals 170 damage with 1,43 sec chargeup, for 50 energy. That's nice. But that means you need 4 sniper shots to kill an ultra. Which means you either need 4 ghosts, which is 8 pop and 800/400. Or you need a full energy ghost, but it'll take 5,6 seconds or so. Real time seconds. That's huge.
So yay we've got a gimmicky counter that doesn't really works when there's too much ultra, while the rest of the terran army deals litterally no damage.
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On December 12 2015 03:26 WrathSCII wrote:
Maps
The Legacy of the Void maps are surprisingly turning out much better than we had hoped. While not perfect, there have not been any major game breaking issues with any of the new maps yet. In the past for example, some new maps have had simple all-in strategies that one race could do in a specific matchup and it would be nearly impossible to stop between two players of equal skill levels. We’re definitely not seeing any of that yet.
Dusk Towers PvT
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8,3 % is balanced mate. Why? BECAUSE THE MAP POOL IS AMAZING.
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I don't really like talking about balance, I am only Gold, so balance isn't important for me and my opponents' skill 
On the other hand reading Blizzards explanations is painful. There is so many things that confuse me, so many changes in LotV that at this point (how the hell this game is still in BETA??) make no sense at all, imo.
I like playing LotV, mostly because it is faster (in the meaning that I can play more games in shorter time). But the way the game is shifting since WoL from strategy game towards arcade game, with hundreds of skills to master (buttons to press...) is ridiculous. It simply became too hard to play. Very soon only pro-gamers will play it. Shame.
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On December 12 2015 18:50 Asturas wrote:I don't really like talking about balance, I am only Gold, so balance isn't important for me and my opponents' skill On the other hand reading Blizzards explanations is painful. There is so many things that confuse me, so many changes in LotV that at this point (how the hell this game is still in BETA??) make no sense at all, imo. I like playing LotV, mostly because it is faster (in the meaning that I can play more games in shorter time). But the way the game is shifting since WoL from strategy game towards arcade game, with hundreds of skills to master (buttons to press...) is ridiculous. It simply became too hard to play. Very soon only pro-gamers will play it. Shame.
I don't thing it will be a too popular opinion around here, but I agree with you. And I don't think the issue is as much that is gets too hard to play, since your opponent has the same issue. However it does make it less and less a strategy game, and more a moba in the end.
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Parasitic Bomb Strength
We agree that due to the current strength of this ability, we’re not seeing a lot of air unit interactions that we could. We’ve been discussing your suggestions as well as exploring potential redesigns such as adding friendly fire so that positioning and counter play is increased more. Currently, we don’t quite have a specific alignment on our end on this front, but we wanted to let you know that this is a topic that we’re aggressively discussing right now. An issue with Parasitic Bomb is that due to the threat of the ability, we’re not seeing a lot of air unit interaction in general, we wonder if the solve is as simple as a numbers nerf to see what happens, and then maybe we can go from there.
Here is an idea - Instead of casting the bomb on enemy units, make it usable only on friendly units, when the zerg player make his units "the bomb" he needs to move them ontop of the enemy units.
Some interesting gameplay consequences that could happen:
Phoenix vs muta will be back, but this time if the zerg manages to catch/park ontop of the phoenix, they lose, if not then phoenix wins
Muta vs muta will be interesting to watch, it would be something like split squads of mutas dancing around and parasited overlords/overseers charging intop the mix
Bomb vs heavy air will be something like trying to snipe the bombs before it gets ontop of your units, (sort of like in bw vs scourges)
I think this idea have the potential to be a fair solution for all.
Or if the bomb cannot possibly be balanced or made good, simply replace the skill with new skill - spawn scourges for energy
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On December 12 2015 19:46 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 18:50 Asturas wrote:I don't really like talking about balance, I am only Gold, so balance isn't important for me and my opponents' skill On the other hand reading Blizzards explanations is painful. There is so many things that confuse me, so many changes in LotV that at this point (how the hell this game is still in BETA??) make no sense at all, imo. I like playing LotV, mostly because it is faster (in the meaning that I can play more games in shorter time). But the way the game is shifting since WoL from strategy game towards arcade game, with hundreds of skills to master (buttons to press...) is ridiculous. It simply became too hard to play. Very soon only pro-gamers will play it. Shame. I don't thing it will be a too popular opinion around here, but I agree with you. And I don't think the issue is as much that is gets too hard to play, since your opponent has the same issue. However it does make it less and less a strategy game, and more a moba in the end.
I agree fully, on the not pro level you lose easily because you are f.e. out of position to defend yolo drops, suddenly a lot of ultras etc. or warprism with 30adept warp in. During HOTS i convinced some of my friends to keep playing, they arent touching LOTV anymore because it doesnt feel right on their level. And that's something different than balance keep that in mind. Result is that they stopped playing except for one, who is playing zerg.
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On December 12 2015 17:54 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 17:29 RoomOfMush wrote:
the tl;dr version of the blizzard update:
"We know about the things you dont like, but we are not going to change them." => that exactly. What they basically said about the ultra is "terrans can manage to deal some damage when the zerg is transitioning ultras.". No shit sherlock, most pro zergs still die to mid game against terran. But not because they're rofltomped by a single unit, because the economy and the compositions have changed (terran got bio figured out, while zergs still learn to use ravagers). However, just watch soulkey playing, ffs. When he reaches T3 without dying, he just masses lings and ultras until the terran dies. Just lings and ultras, nothing else. Because terran has no real counter. - thors can't really be used because you've got to go bio - tanks are still terrible - marauders are atrocious, they deal like 10 damage with +3 atk - ghosts... let's talk about it. The snipe deals 170 damage with 1,43 sec chargeup, for 50 energy. That's nice. But that means you need 4 sniper shots to kill an ultra. Which means you either need 4 ghosts, which is 8 pop and 800/400. Or you need a full energy ghost, but it'll take 5,6 seconds or so. Real time seconds. That's huge. So yay we've got a gimmicky counter that doesn't really works when there's too much ultra, while the rest of the terran army deals litterally no damage.
Ghost Snipe 3-shots Ultralisk, The 170 damage is Spell Damage and as such, not affected by the 8 armor. 170*3=510 = DAED ULTARLUSK
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On December 12 2015 19:46 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 18:50 Asturas wrote:I don't really like talking about balance, I am only Gold, so balance isn't important for me and my opponents' skill On the other hand reading Blizzards explanations is painful. There is so many things that confuse me, so many changes in LotV that at this point (how the hell this game is still in BETA??) make no sense at all, imo. I like playing LotV, mostly because it is faster (in the meaning that I can play more games in shorter time). But the way the game is shifting since WoL from strategy game towards arcade game, with hundreds of skills to master (buttons to press...) is ridiculous. It simply became too hard to play. Very soon only pro-gamers will play it. Shame. I don't thing it will be a too popular opinion around here, but I agree with you. And I don't think the issue is as much that is gets too hard to play, since your opponent has the same issue. However it does make it less and less a strategy game, and more a moba in the end.
Every single Protoss unit has some silly quirk to it, and 80% of them have activated abilities too.
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On the topic of maps I'd like to quote TLO from his interview with mystarcraft.de.
http://www.mystarcraft.de/de/interviews/34341-tlo-about-lotv-hsc-and-his-plans-for-2016
Blizzard tries to make the game more varied by adding a new map pool. How do you assess this attempt?
Well, the current map pool is probalby not that good. Too many maps with four spawn locations and to wide ramps. I think this will get better since there have always been a little questionable features in new Blizzard games. But it's not as bad as I thought. Truth be told, it is currently hard to tell how a good LotV should look like. There is still a lack of experience.
What do you thing about more unconventional map designs like Ulrena?
Innovative maps are not bad in the first place but you have to be careful. Ulrena, for example, is too extreme because it has such a little rush distance which can make games too one-dimensional. LotV does actually not need these crazy maps to produce interesting games because there are so many possibilities to do cool stuff.If maps get too special it rather limits the player's possibilites than making new styles possible.
The whole interview is a nice read, but this part fits the discussion so well.
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On December 12 2015 21:15 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 17:54 JackONeill wrote:On December 12 2015 17:29 RoomOfMush wrote:
the tl;dr version of the blizzard update:
"We know about the things you dont like, but we are not going to change them." => that exactly. What they basically said about the ultra is "terrans can manage to deal some damage when the zerg is transitioning ultras.". No shit sherlock, most pro zergs still die to mid game against terran. But not because they're rofltomped by a single unit, because the economy and the compositions have changed (terran got bio figured out, while zergs still learn to use ravagers). However, just watch soulkey playing, ffs. When he reaches T3 without dying, he just masses lings and ultras until the terran dies. Just lings and ultras, nothing else. Because terran has no real counter. - thors can't really be used because you've got to go bio - tanks are still terrible - marauders are atrocious, they deal like 10 damage with +3 atk - ghosts... let's talk about it. The snipe deals 170 damage with 1,43 sec chargeup, for 50 energy. That's nice. But that means you need 4 sniper shots to kill an ultra. Which means you either need 4 ghosts, which is 8 pop and 800/400. Or you need a full energy ghost, but it'll take 5,6 seconds or so. Real time seconds. That's huge. So yay we've got a gimmicky counter that doesn't really works when there's too much ultra, while the rest of the terran army deals litterally no damage. Ghost Snipe 3-shots Ultralisk, The 170 damage is Spell Damage and as such, not affected by the 8 armor. 170*3=510 = DAED ULTARLUSK
That doesn't really counter his arguments though.
Polt was playing around with ghosts against ultras, he couldn't make it work properly either. The shot delay kills that option, since you can't have your units stick around forever when banelings roll in. And you certainly can't afford to lose those ghosts, because you need the energy that they accumulated.
The ultralisk is just retarded strong at the moment (clearly, they even admit that the ultra was balanced, so they buffed it and nerfed its counter), and no fun to watch, because contrary to what DK wanted (diversify terran), terrans still make only MMM but play more aggressive to kill the zerg before he reaches ultras. The argumentation of "we want them to play different things than MMM, so make sure it can't deal with T3" is idiotic. The correct way would've been to make sure that there's something viable in the terrans arsenal against T3, instead of forcing them to simply kill the zerg before you reach that point.
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On December 12 2015 21:15 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 17:54 JackONeill wrote:On December 12 2015 17:29 RoomOfMush wrote:
the tl;dr version of the blizzard update:
"We know about the things you dont like, but we are not going to change them." => that exactly. What they basically said about the ultra is "terrans can manage to deal some damage when the zerg is transitioning ultras.". No shit sherlock, most pro zergs still die to mid game against terran. But not because they're rofltomped by a single unit, because the economy and the compositions have changed (terran got bio figured out, while zergs still learn to use ravagers). However, just watch soulkey playing, ffs. When he reaches T3 without dying, he just masses lings and ultras until the terran dies. Just lings and ultras, nothing else. Because terran has no real counter. - thors can't really be used because you've got to go bio - tanks are still terrible - marauders are atrocious, they deal like 10 damage with +3 atk - ghosts... let's talk about it. The snipe deals 170 damage with 1,43 sec chargeup, for 50 energy. That's nice. But that means you need 4 sniper shots to kill an ultra. Which means you either need 4 ghosts, which is 8 pop and 800/400. Or you need a full energy ghost, but it'll take 5,6 seconds or so. Real time seconds. That's huge. So yay we've got a gimmicky counter that doesn't really works when there's too much ultra, while the rest of the terran army deals litterally no damage. Ghost Snipe 3-shots Ultralisk, The 170 damage is Spell Damage and as such, not affected by the 8 armor. 170*3=510 = DAED ULTARLUSK
and when there are 10 ultras supported by mass lings? your bio is dead before you have even sniped half of the ultras.
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Anyone who just watched True vs Reality on BaseTradeTV knows David Kim has no idea what he's talking about.
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is this a joke?? Terran is more than enough challenging.. and now you make ultra super imba so we are forced to do somthing else?
explain me. What can we do under theese days? air is dead because viper. mech isnt viable because its to immobile Ghost, gets shut down whit fungal (i had 40 ghost one game, splittet, stil wasnt enough) Ravager counters liberators and tanks. so yeah.. WHAT the hell shal we do other than mmm?
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Well I would like to thanks Blizzard. I am having a ton of fun playing Legacy right now and I even enjoy watching the tournaments that are going on. Even the one with Foreigners. Basetrade, Nationwars, WW3... soon GSL and proleague...
I don't like the maps Lerilak Crest and Central Protocol but I guess that's why I have a "vetomap" options. And I have the feeling they won't stay in the ladder pool for next season.
I agree with the fact that Ultras are too strong vs bio. In some situations it looks really sad for the terran. I also think Parasic Bomb is killing Air. I hope they will tune it down. Overall zerg became more funny to play with.
Disruptor are fun but I am scared it might become boring at one point in PvP. The pylon overcharge might be too strong. I still think that the warp prism is overpowered: the micro you can do with it and some adepts is too strong.
I am still not sure if tanks need buff damage or not. The bomb of the reaper need to be tuned down. They are killing TvT and TvZ. I think the liberators are in a good place now. It's really a huge investment and you really have to strategically decide what you want to do with them.
Well thanks again Blizzard. I am happy.
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On December 13 2015 03:12 wjat wrote:
Well I would like to thanks Blizzard. I am having a ton of fun playing Legacy right now and I even enjoy watching the tournaments that are going on. Even the one with Foreigners. Basetrade, Nationwars, WW3... soon GSL and proleague...
I don't like the maps Lerilak Crest and Central Protocol but I guess that's why I have a "vetomap" options. And I have the feeling they won't stay in the ladder pool for next season.
I agree with the fact that Ultras are too strong vs bio. In some situations it looks really sad for the terran. I also think Parasic Bomb is killing Air. I hope they will tune it down. Overall zerg became more funny to play with.
Disruptor are fun but I am scared it might become boring at one point in PvP. The pylon overcharge might be too strong. I still think that the warp prism is overpowered: the micro you can do with it and some adepts is too strong.
I am still not sure if tanks need buff damage or not. The bomb of the reaper need to be tuned down. They are killing TvT and TvZ. I think the liberators are in a good place now. It's really a huge investment and you really have to strategically decide what you want to do with them.
Well thanks again Blizzard. I am happy.
read the map section again, you will see all these maps again with no replacements next season
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On December 13 2015 03:05 MiCroLiFe wrote:
is this a joke?? Terran is more than enough challenging.. and now you make ultra super imba so we are forced to do somthing else?
explain me. What can we do under theese days? air is dead because viper. mech isnt viable because its to immobile Ghost, gets shut down whit fungal (i had 40 ghost one game, splittet, stil wasnt enough) Ravager counters liberators and tanks. so yeah.. WHAT the hell shal we do other than mmm?
How did you lost 40 ghost???
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Parasitic Bomb needs immediate nerfs, and Photon Overcharge does not need "compensation". It's spammable and needs a straight nerf.
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On December 13 2015 04:03 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 03:05 MiCroLiFe wrote:
is this a joke?? Terran is more than enough challenging.. and now you make ultra super imba so we are forced to do somthing else?
explain me. What can we do under theese days? air is dead because viper. mech isnt viable because its to immobile Ghost, gets shut down whit fungal (i had 40 ghost one game, splittet, stil wasnt enough) Ravager counters liberators and tanks. so yeah.. WHAT the hell shal we do other than mmm? How did you lost 40 ghost???
Probalby enough got fungaled quickly so they couldn't get their snipes off (if you don't get the first snipes off you won't get any off because the zerg will be on top of you) and then you have to run the bio bakc or lose that, so the ghosts die, anbd the ones that did manage to snipe get caught out in front of the army.
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On December 12 2015 21:17 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 19:46 Sissors wrote:On December 12 2015 18:50 Asturas wrote:I don't really like talking about balance, I am only Gold, so balance isn't important for me and my opponents' skill On the other hand reading Blizzards explanations is painful. There is so many things that confuse me, so many changes in LotV that at this point (how the hell this game is still in BETA??) make no sense at all, imo. I like playing LotV, mostly because it is faster (in the meaning that I can play more games in shorter time). But the way the game is shifting since WoL from strategy game towards arcade game, with hundreds of skills to master (buttons to press...) is ridiculous. It simply became too hard to play. Very soon only pro-gamers will play it. Shame. I don't thing it will be a too popular opinion around here, but I agree with you. And I don't think the issue is as much that is gets too hard to play, since your opponent has the same issue. However it does make it less and less a strategy game, and more a moba in the end. Every single Protoss unit has some silly quirk to it, and 80% of them have activated abilities too.
Not that much. You are right quite some of them have it, however many also don't, or which are auto-activated so I don't count them (such as Zealot charge. Also new immortal ability does not count imo).
However looking at the new LotV units:
Ravager -> relies on ability which needs to be manually casted
Lurker -> Need to manually burrow/unburrow all the time, but in principle a quite normal unit
(Viper -> Got yet another ability)
Disruptor: Completely relies on ability to be manually casted
Adept: Largely relies on its ability
Liberator: Somewhere in between, since it is not really casting, but still in practise you are constantly switching its region where it needs to function (alot more than a siege tank, and you need to do it for each individually)
Cyclone: Completely relies on ability, which can be autocasted, but is pretty crap at that with more than one target/more than one cyclone
So for me the lurker is the only new normal units in LotV, and then still one which needs quite some babysitting. Pretty much all others are new casters.
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I guess it's nice to know that David Kim doesn't give a shit about our opinion. I mean, we all knew it, but it's nice to see this get put into words.
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I agree with blizzard about the maps, but only if we ll be able to veto 5 maps out of 7!!!!!
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On December 13 2015 05:58 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 21:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 12 2015 19:46 Sissors wrote:On December 12 2015 18:50 Asturas wrote:I don't really like talking about balance, I am only Gold, so balance isn't important for me and my opponents' skill On the other hand reading Blizzards explanations is painful. There is so many things that confuse me, so many changes in LotV that at this point (how the hell this game is still in BETA??) make no sense at all, imo. I like playing LotV, mostly because it is faster (in the meaning that I can play more games in shorter time). But the way the game is shifting since WoL from strategy game towards arcade game, with hundreds of skills to master (buttons to press...) is ridiculous. It simply became too hard to play. Very soon only pro-gamers will play it. Shame. I don't thing it will be a too popular opinion around here, but I agree with you. And I don't think the issue is as much that is gets too hard to play, since your opponent has the same issue. However it does make it less and less a strategy game, and more a moba in the end. Every single Protoss unit has some silly quirk to it, and 80% of them have activated abilities too. Not that much. You are right quite some of them have it, however many also don't, or which are auto-activated so I don't count them (such as Zealot charge. Also new immortal ability does not count imo). However looking at the new LotV units: Ravager -> relies on ability which needs to be manually casted Lurker -> Need to manually burrow/unburrow all the time, but in principle a quite normal unit (Viper -> Got yet another ability) Disruptor: Completely relies on ability to be manually casted Adept: Largely relies on its ability Liberator: Somewhere in between, since it is not really casting, but still in practise you are constantly switching its region where it needs to function (alot more than a siege tank, and you need to do it for each individually) Cyclone: Completely relies on ability, which can be autocasted, but is pretty crap at that with more than one target/more than one cyclone So for me the lurker is the only new normal units in LotV, and then still one which needs quite some babysitting. Pretty much all others are new casters.
The Adept does not largely rely on its ability at all. It's very useful early game and for harass, but in the mid-game it's not that important.
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On December 13 2015 04:03 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 03:05 MiCroLiFe wrote:
is this a joke?? Terran is more than enough challenging.. and now you make ultra super imba so we are forced to do somthing else?
explain me. What can we do under theese days? air is dead because viper. mech isnt viable because its to immobile Ghost, gets shut down whit fungal (i had 40 ghost one game, splittet, stil wasnt enough) Ravager counters liberators and tanks. so yeah.. WHAT the hell shal we do other than mmm? How did you lost 40 ghost???
Fungal cancels the snipe and ultra is pretty unkillable
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On December 13 2015 03:42 Meavis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 03:12 wjat wrote:
Well I would like to thanks Blizzard. I am having a ton of fun playing Legacy right now and I even enjoy watching the tournaments that are going on. Even the one with Foreigners. Basetrade, Nationwars, WW3... soon GSL and proleague...
I don't like the maps Lerilak Crest and Central Protocol but I guess that's why I have a "vetomap" options. And I have the feeling they won't stay in the ladder pool for next season.
I agree with the fact that Ultras are too strong vs bio. In some situations it looks really sad for the terran. I also think Parasic Bomb is killing Air. I hope they will tune it down. Overall zerg became more funny to play with.
Disruptor are fun but I am scared it might become boring at one point in PvP. The pylon overcharge might be too strong. I still think that the warp prism is overpowered: the micro you can do with it and some adepts is too strong.
I am still not sure if tanks need buff damage or not. The bomb of the reaper need to be tuned down. They are killing TvT and TvZ. I think the liberators are in a good place now. It's really a huge investment and you really have to strategically decide what you want to do with them.
Well thanks again Blizzard. I am happy. read the map section again, you will see all these maps again with no replacements next season
If the community rage against those two map in particular there is no way Blizzard keep them in next season!
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On December 13 2015 07:05 wjat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 03:42 Meavis wrote:On December 13 2015 03:12 wjat wrote:
Well I would like to thanks Blizzard. I am having a ton of fun playing Legacy right now and I even enjoy watching the tournaments that are going on. Even the one with Foreigners. Basetrade, Nationwars, WW3... soon GSL and proleague...
I don't like the maps Lerilak Crest and Central Protocol but I guess that's why I have a "vetomap" options. And I have the feeling they won't stay in the ladder pool for next season.
I agree with the fact that Ultras are too strong vs bio. In some situations it looks really sad for the terran. I also think Parasic Bomb is killing Air. I hope they will tune it down. Overall zerg became more funny to play with.
Disruptor are fun but I am scared it might become boring at one point in PvP. The pylon overcharge might be too strong. I still think that the warp prism is overpowered: the micro you can do with it and some adepts is too strong.
I am still not sure if tanks need buff damage or not. The bomb of the reaper need to be tuned down. They are killing TvT and TvZ. I think the liberators are in a good place now. It's really a huge investment and you really have to strategically decide what you want to do with them.
Well thanks again Blizzard. I am happy. read the map section again, you will see all these maps again with no replacements next season If the community rage against those two map in particular there is no way Blizzard keep them in next season!
They don't seem to mind the current dislike for the map pool in the slightest, also im curious what "map we know works well" will replace one, considering how few maps have been in lotv
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I like the current maps, there's alot of diversity in the openings right now and it does keep the game fun. Plus I finally got all my openings worked out for them and I'd like to keep working on them. But I'm Zerg, I'm sure I'd hate Prion / Central if I was toss.
I don't see anything wrong with Lerilak.
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On December 13 2015 07:05 wjat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 03:42 Meavis wrote:On December 13 2015 03:12 wjat wrote:
Well I would like to thanks Blizzard. I am having a ton of fun playing Legacy right now and I even enjoy watching the tournaments that are going on. Even the one with Foreigners. Basetrade, Nationwars, WW3... soon GSL and proleague...
I don't like the maps Lerilak Crest and Central Protocol but I guess that's why I have a "vetomap" options. And I have the feeling they won't stay in the ladder pool for next season.
I agree with the fact that Ultras are too strong vs bio. In some situations it looks really sad for the terran. I also think Parasic Bomb is killing Air. I hope they will tune it down. Overall zerg became more funny to play with.
Disruptor are fun but I am scared it might become boring at one point in PvP. The pylon overcharge might be too strong. I still think that the warp prism is overpowered: the micro you can do with it and some adepts is too strong.
I am still not sure if tanks need buff damage or not. The bomb of the reaper need to be tuned down. They are killing TvT and TvZ. I think the liberators are in a good place now. It's really a huge investment and you really have to strategically decide what you want to do with them.
Well thanks again Blizzard. I am happy. read the map section again, you will see all these maps again with no replacements next season If the community rage against those two map in particular there is no way Blizzard keep them in next season!
Exactly, because blizzard is known for listening to the community, what can go wrong :D
"We want more diversity from terrans and not just MMMM", so we force them to build another bio unit to counter the counter that counters bio. Counterception is real. Mech is not really viable. skyterran isnt possible due parasitic bomb and a decent zerg will spread its corruptors and they wreck a lot, terran cant remax that fast and massing vikings is suicide because when the air is empty they dont do much when they are landed.....
So Terran is in a limbo with a bandaid unit aka liberator. And thats just the tip of the iceberg of problems.
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On December 13 2015 06:18 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 04:03 RaFox17 wrote:On December 13 2015 03:05 MiCroLiFe wrote:
is this a joke?? Terran is more than enough challenging.. and now you make ultra super imba so we are forced to do somthing else?
explain me. What can we do under theese days? air is dead because viper. mech isnt viable because its to immobile Ghost, gets shut down whit fungal (i had 40 ghost one game, splittet, stil wasnt enough) Ravager counters liberators and tanks. so yeah.. WHAT the hell shal we do other than mmm? How did you lost 40 ghost??? Fungal cancels the snipe and ultra is pretty unkillable
So terrible micro/positioning.
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I really don't understand the complaints here.
Imo blizzard is addressing most of the discussion I saw online and just because you don't agree with their idea there is no reason to shit on the entire community feedback thing.
Regarding this community feedback, especially the ultra armor thing, I think I agree with incontrol's article .
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On December 13 2015 17:02 Yiome wrote:I really don't understand the complaints here. Imo blizzard is addressing most of the discussion I saw online and just because you don't agree with their idea there is no reason to shit on the entire community feedback thing. Regarding this community feedback, especially the ultra armor thing, I think I agree with incontrol's article .
The problem is shit like ultras getting a random buff out of nowhere and Terrans have no real weapons to compensate. Ghosts are clunky as hell, and don't really fit into a Terran army, Liberators are great, but do we really need another unit that hard counters another? Other than those two units, there's really not much that Terrans can use. And that's really the heart of the issue. Terran still is playing HOTS style, while everyone else has moved on to other compositions, other styles that were made more viable by LOTV. Don't tell me not to use MMM, give me another option instead of nerfing the shit out of my marauders and making Ultras run over everything.
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On December 13 2015 18:00 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 17:02 Yiome wrote:I really don't understand the complaints here. Imo blizzard is addressing most of the discussion I saw online and just because you don't agree with their idea there is no reason to shit on the entire community feedback thing. Regarding this community feedback, especially the ultra armor thing, I think I agree with incontrol's article . The problem is shit like ultras getting a random buff out of nowhere and Terrans have no real weapons to compensate. Ghosts are clunky as hell, and don't really fit into a Terran army, Liberators are great, but do we really need another unit that hard counters another? Other than those two units, there's really not much that Terrans can use. And that's really the heart of the issue. Terran still is playing HOTS style, while everyone else has moved on to other compositions, other styles that were made more viable by LOTV. Don't tell me not to use MMM, give me another option instead of nerfing the shit out of my marauders and making Ultras run over everything.
Its not only the Ultralisk that got a random buff, but so many things got buffed, the lings, broodlords, infestors etc etc
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/491202-lotv-multiplayer-changes-compilation
The ultralisk buff has been questioned since the start of the beta, and over time blizzard came up with the ghost as a solution. Let's create an artificial gigantic nerf for terran, more micro and another bio unit. So we go from MMM to MMMGhost. WEOW! So when they buffed the ultra, what was the tradeoff? micro the ultras so they dont die with a-move while terran is microing by kiting the unit like in hots? no, its so beefy and strong you can focus elsewhere so there isnt any tradeoff, a huge buff on top of all the other things.
When we look at the list of terran "buffs" its mostly nerfs, removed abilities or another expensive upgrade before it gets useful. So terran is stuck to bio, but blizzard wants to see more diversity but that is not possible in the current state.
On top of that, all the extra micro, more simcity in every MU etc its just getting silly.
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infestor ravager combo is even better than broodlord infestor in WoL
lethal, cheaper and faster. wtf blizzard
i think even david kim didnt know about ravager infestor combo when he made that unit lol
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On December 13 2015 23:13 nubHunter wrote:
infestor ravager combo is even better than broodlord infestor in WoL
better, cheaper and faster. wtf blizzard
Yes. That must be true or maybe, just maybe you might be exaggerating a tiny bit.
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On December 13 2015 23:17 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 23:13 nubHunter wrote:
infestor ravager combo is even better than broodlord infestor in WoL
better, cheaper and faster. wtf blizzard Yes. That must be true or maybe, just maybe you might be exaggerating a tiny bit.
cry more little zerg.
infestor-ravager combo cost less resources than WoL broodlord-infestor, moves a lot faster, the timming is earlier.
atleast it requires a little more skill with the new infestor projectile, but if your brain and hands are in a good shape it is easy to execute.
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On December 13 2015 23:22 nubHunter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 23:17 RaFox17 wrote:On December 13 2015 23:13 nubHunter wrote:
infestor ravager combo is even better than broodlord infestor in WoL
better, cheaper and faster. wtf blizzard Yes. That must be true or maybe, just maybe you might be exaggerating a tiny bit. cry more little zerg. infestor-ravager combo cost less resources than WoL broodlord-infestor, moves a lot faster, the timming is earlier. atleast it requires a little more skill with the new infestor projectile, but if your brain and hands are in a good shape it is easy to execute.
Still don´t think that is even close to the strength of the old BL/infestor. Also i´m about average size for a man.
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On December 13 2015 23:27 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 23:22 nubHunter wrote:On December 13 2015 23:17 RaFox17 wrote:On December 13 2015 23:13 nubHunter wrote:
infestor ravager combo is even better than broodlord infestor in WoL
better, cheaper and faster. wtf blizzard Yes. That must be true or maybe, just maybe you might be exaggerating a tiny bit. cry more little zerg. infestor-ravager combo cost less resources than WoL broodlord-infestor, moves a lot faster, the timming is earlier. atleast it requires a little more skill with the new infestor projectile, but if your brain and hands are in a good shape it is easy to execute. Still don´t think that is even close to the strength of the old BL/infestor. Also i´m about average size for a man.
He said zerg, not man. Joke's on you!
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Austria24417 Posts
Happy to see they're at least realizing that Disruptors completely murdered PvP.
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On December 13 2015 23:27 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 23:22 nubHunter wrote:On December 13 2015 23:17 RaFox17 wrote:On December 13 2015 23:13 nubHunter wrote:
infestor ravager combo is even better than broodlord infestor in WoL
better, cheaper and faster. wtf blizzard Yes. That must be true or maybe, just maybe you might be exaggerating a tiny bit. cry more little zerg. infestor-ravager combo cost less resources than WoL broodlord-infestor, moves a lot faster, the timming is earlier. atleast it requires a little more skill with the new infestor projectile, but if your brain and hands are in a good shape it is easy to execute. Still don´t think that is even close to the strength of the old BL/infestor. Also i´m about average size for a man.
it is not better in power, but it is better if you consider the timming, the resource cost and the speed of the army.
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Fact is, that terran has always been really out of place-race in SC2. Zerg and protoss are far more suited to the fast pace nature of SC2 because of superior mechanics. Terran is extremely inflexible, clunky, and horribly slow race. Its so much easier for especially Zerg to be constantly mobile and take the map while terran is forced to turtle inside 2-3base and every time terran moves out its 100% gamble. Drops are not effective at all in sc2 because defences are so good and terran has hard time fightning straight up so whats left for terran?
Terran issues are biggest in Lotv than ever before with new additions to other races, terrans got just a bone.
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On December 13 2015 17:02 Yiome wrote:I really don't understand the complaints here. Imo blizzard is addressing most of the discussion I saw online and just because you don't agree with their idea there is no reason to shit on the entire community feedback thing. Regarding this community feedback, especially the ultra armor thing, I think I agree with incontrol's article .
The problem with the idea behind the Incontrol's article is Blizzard obviously hasn't been doing this. If they really wanted to have a "buff everything" contest then they wouldn't be content with making previously strong units into borderline useless. Colossus is hot garbage now, Ravens are garbage, Swarm Host is garbage, etc. DK has already stated that he buffed the Ultra to make force Terran variety, but the problem was they had no viable counter. They had to make the counter through Ghosts, and it was sloppily done.
You can't just buff everything and expect stuff to be okay. It just doesn't work like that. There has to be a flow to the game that every race can follow and interact with. That flow is obviously there with Zerg. In fact I have the opinion they're the best designed race in SC2, but Terran has a bunch of trap units that you could not possibly know about until experienced, and Protoss' design is as bad as Blizzard's chat system.
The problem with SC2 isn't in balance, it's in design. The reason why we can't buff everything is due to the hard counter system. This is the biggest reason why Ultralisks (and Vipers) can't stay the way they are. Lets keep in mind that even though the focus has been on TvZ, it's actually PvZ that's has been getting shat all over through these changes.
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On December 13 2015 23:50 cop354g wrote:
Fact is, that terran has always been really out of place-race in SC2. Zerg and protoss are far more suited to the fast pace nature of SC2 because of superior mechanics. Terran is extremely inflexible, clunky, and horribly slow race. Its so much easier for especially Zerg to be constantly mobile and take the map while terran is forced to turtle inside 2-3base and every time terran moves out its 100% gamble. Drops are not effective at all in sc2 because defences are so good and terran has hard time fightning straight up so whats left for terran?
Terran issues are biggest in Lotv than ever before with new additions to other races, terrans got just a bone.
As much as I like to complain about other races, Terran isn't a slow race, and especially bio play isn't meant to be turtling at all but rather to be constantly aggressive. Drop play was the core of TvP for the longest time and always had its place in TvZ.
Also, for LotV, Terran was given both mobility buffs and buffs in straight-up engagements. In terms of mobility, we were given the - criminally underused - medivac upgrade that makes their boost last a lot longer; as well as the ability to pick up sieged tanks; and a movement speed buff for ghosts. In terms of straight-up engagements, ghosts got a buff to their snipe which can do massive damage now, and we were given liberators.
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On December 14 2015 00:00 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 23:50 cop354g wrote:
Fact is, that terran has always been really out of place-race in SC2. Zerg and protoss are far more suited to the fast pace nature of SC2 because of superior mechanics. Terran is extremely inflexible, clunky, and horribly slow race. Its so much easier for especially Zerg to be constantly mobile and take the map while terran is forced to turtle inside 2-3base and every time terran moves out its 100% gamble. Drops are not effective at all in sc2 because defences are so good and terran has hard time fightning straight up so whats left for terran?
Terran issues are biggest in Lotv than ever before with new additions to other races, terrans got just a bone. As much as I like to complain about other races, Terran isn't a slow race, and especially bio play isn't meant to be turtling at all but rather to be constantly aggressive. Drop play was the core of TvP for the longest time and always had its place in TvZ. Also, for LotV, Terran was given both mobility buffs and buffs in straight-up engagements. In terms of mobility, we were given the - criminally underused - medivac upgrade that makes their boost last a lot longer; as well as the ability to pick up sieged tanks; and a movement speed buff for ghosts. In terms of straight-up engagements, ghosts got a buff to their snipe which can do massive damage now, and we were given liberators.
Terran is mechanically way too slow for how SC2 works. There is reason why zerg has for years been the most consistently top placing race. Zerg is simply easier race to be good at. Zerg has superior remaxing capabilities, superior mobility, better unit design etc. Terran still plays very much the same way as in early days of WoL, only with little twist from Liberators which dont solve core issues of terran.
Terran needs changes where the race actually can dictate the flow of the game and force decisions on Zerg/protoss rather than being the one who has to react to every possible permutations of what Zerg/protoss can do in fog of war.
Terran also needs units like:
-Goliaths: strong and massable multipurpose GtG/GtA-unit that doesnt die instantly on ravagers/parasitic bombs/fungals.
-Better siege tanks
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TVT is my worst match up.
Im stil 70% winrate and 40% on the others.
if its a year or so and ultras and adepts are stil this strong, i might change race if i ever want to get GM
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I think the mutalisk switch in ZvP is a little too strong, increase archon dmg versus air? Or make spire cost a little more (like 50 or 75 more gas).
I like disruptors as they are, but the +shields dmg did seem kind of random.
Parasitic bomb is too strong. Decrease aoe.
I like photon overcharge as it is. Increasing duration and cost makes for less things to do, which is bad.
I'm actually really happy with all the other units as they are. LotV is much better than HotS.
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On December 13 2015 23:50 cop354g wrote:
Fact is, that terran has always been really out of place-race in SC2. Zerg and protoss are far more suited to the fast pace nature of SC2 because of superior mechanics. Terran is extremely inflexible, clunky, and horribly slow race. Its so much easier for especially Zerg to be constantly mobile and take the map while terran is forced to turtle inside 2-3base and every time terran moves out its 100% gamble. Drops are not effective at all in sc2 because defences are so good and terran has hard time fightning straight up so whats left for terran?
Terran issues are biggest in Lotv than ever before with new additions to other races, terrans got just a bone.
Terran is the slow race?
Go back to 2015 PvT and watch any good Terran run circles around Protoss who have no way to break up their deathball.
Terran has plenty of problems but bio is one of, if not the, most mobile composition in the game.
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On December 13 2015 05:07 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Parasitic Bomb needs immediate nerfs, and Photon Overcharge does not need "compensation". It's spammable and needs a straight nerf.
I don't like Photon Overcharge at all, but Protoss is seriously hurting right now and needs it to just stay in the game early.
So Protoss does need compensation of some sort if it is going to be nerfed.
On December 13 2015 23:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Happy to see they're at least realizing that Disruptors completely murdered PvP.
SC2 really needs a new design team. Anyone remember the 30 damage Zealot charge? Yeah that seemed balanced to someone on the design team at one point... seriously...
It took me one game to realize that PvP would revolve around Disruptors essentially forever... at least until they received major changes. Force Fields should block their shots in addition to them doing less shield damage.
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On December 12 2015 04:08 Big J wrote:
@Parasitic Bomb: Fully agree that this ability is very strong and we only don't see it that often because people just don't go air against zerg to begin with. I think an interesting tweak would be to delay the effect by a few seconds after it hit, or start the damage off lower and increase it after a few seconds. This would work well with the ability to split the affected units away from others. Maybe that's not enough but it would be interesting and increase counterplay against the ability.
This is a good idea. Maybe make it an auto hit projectile, a bit like HSM. And running away will give you even more time before impact with travel time. With red highlight and so on. Gives a few seconds to split the unit off.
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On December 14 2015 15:46 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 05:07 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Parasitic Bomb needs immediate nerfs, and Photon Overcharge does not need "compensation". It's spammable and needs a straight nerf. I don't like Photon Overcharge at all, but Protoss is seriously hurting right now and needs it to just stay in the game early. So Protoss does need compensation of some sort if it is going to be nerfed.
Yes, but they need real compensation. To be fair, maybe (initially) the Photon Overcharge needs compensation too, but it is a bandaid for the real problem. To be fair, I am not a toss player, and I don't know their exact problems really. Few days ago I saw Harstem fight Polt with purely gateway units vs terran who besides MMM also had ghosts and liberators. Sure in the end he lost, but I don't think we can with adepts really say their gateway units are shit. Maybe give zealots instead of their stupid damage on impact with charge, high armor when charge is activated for a flat few seconds or so. Or hell, just reboost Colossus to where it used to be. At the same time I am also not really a fan of the adepts who murder an entire mineral line in a few seconds and teleport around. Unless you got your Cyclone in the right position, and you completely ruin the day of the protoss.
Quite frankly, if with whatever option that adept drop is nerfed, I don't think regarding PvT openings protoss will suffer that much, for starters it might make air openings viable again. Right now I just always make sure I got a cyclone, since otherwise adept drop pretty much kills me instantly. However it also means that everytime I see an oracle it is generally easy kill for my Cyclone.
And then the problem is of course everything is connected. As terran I could possibly agree that the Cyclone is as early unit on the strong side. Nerfing it would help protoss with the early harrasment, but at the same time Cyclone is really not in a position to be nerfed. I don't think that lockon is ever going to be a good idea.
Anyway back to the original point: I don't see the photon overcharge as something any race, including protoss, should be happy about. It is just to hide the real problems. If it were up to me I would even remove the entire MsC. Make sure they don't need to rely on their supply depots doing terrible damage, and if they need something against lategame drops/runbys, add an upgrade, we can call it photon overcharge, which boosts photon cannons. That said, I have my doubts if the solution to flanks/runbys/drops should be that you just make some static defense and go back your deathball.
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I think one of the problems connected with the ultralisk are also its supporting units. Yesterday at nation wars (i know its not top korean play) a game between heromarine and serral, actually a really entertaining and close game, showed several issues.
I think the meta with ghosts,bio lib vs ultra/broodlords/ravager etc. is really nice but like in WoL its squishy on the terran side. 1 mistake, like getting hit by 1 fungal can end the game instantly, while the z is allowed to do more mistakes.
In addition i think the damage output of the cracklings will be a problem in the future. In some scenarios in the game it was crazy what they did, like sniping the planetary etc.
In addition i dont see any scenario where the thor can get useful either in tvp or tvz because its countered by units like immortals and cannot deny ravager or disruptor hits.
Anyways the game makes so much fun right now
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Btw, are there any pro level mech games anymore? Like, at least in TvT?
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Ultralisks are even worse in ZvP, Protoss has a grand total of two units that can actually deal damage to them, and Archons are nowhere near cost effective. Protoss has nothing to tank them while Immortals deal damage as both Adepts and Zealots get splash killed in seconds. Also Adepts are barely cost-effective against upgraded Zerglings so in large engagements where say 33% of your Adepts are attacking Ultras and 33% of your Immortals are attacking zerglings instead of their counter target, you just get rolled over in seconds due to inefficiency.
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On December 15 2015 01:12 Xequecal wrote:
Ultralisks are even worse in ZvP, Protoss has a grand total of two units that can actually deal damage to them, and Archons are nowhere near cost effective. Protoss has nothing to tank them while Immortals deal damage as both Adepts and Zealots get splash killed in seconds. Also Adepts are barely cost-effective against upgraded Zerglings so in large engagements where say 33% of your Adepts are attacking Ultras and 33% of your Immortals are attacking zerglings instead of their counter target, you just get rolled over in seconds due to inefficiency.
And even if you do manage to kill the army, the tech switch remax will inevitably kill Protoss.
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On December 15 2015 02:00 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 01:12 Xequecal wrote:
Ultralisks are even worse in ZvP, Protoss has a grand total of two units that can actually deal damage to them, and Archons are nowhere near cost effective. Protoss has nothing to tank them while Immortals deal damage as both Adepts and Zealots get splash killed in seconds. Also Adepts are barely cost-effective against upgraded Zerglings so in large engagements where say 33% of your Adepts are attacking Ultras and 33% of your Immortals are attacking zerglings instead of their counter target, you just get rolled over in seconds due to inefficiency. And even if you do manage to kill the army, the tech switch remax will inevitably kill Protoss.
Always assuming that zerg has 3k/3k bank.
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On December 15 2015 02:23 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 02:00 HeroMystic wrote:On December 15 2015 01:12 Xequecal wrote:
Ultralisks are even worse in ZvP, Protoss has a grand total of two units that can actually deal damage to them, and Archons are nowhere near cost effective. Protoss has nothing to tank them while Immortals deal damage as both Adepts and Zealots get splash killed in seconds. Also Adepts are barely cost-effective against upgraded Zerglings so in large engagements where say 33% of your Adepts are attacking Ultras and 33% of your Immortals are attacking zerglings instead of their counter target, you just get rolled over in seconds due to inefficiency. And even if you do manage to kill the army, the tech switch remax will inevitably kill Protoss. Always assuming that zerg has 3k/3k bank.
How does Protoss kill Zerg when he's turtling with units that Protoss can't kill with Stalker/Immortal? Pray for Lucky Disruptor shots?
This was repeated constantly in tournament games.
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Well, you could make Tempests.....oh wait Zerg has Vipers, all air is useless.
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On December 15 2015 02:54 Xequecal wrote:
Well, you could make Tempests.....oh wait Zerg has Vipers, all air is useless.
Ah come on!
Tempests 450 HP and PB does 70. For real!
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On December 15 2015 03:04 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 02:54 Xequecal wrote:
Well, you could make Tempests.....oh wait Zerg has Vipers, all air is useless. Ah come on! Tempests 450 HP and PB does 70. For real!
It does 90 and it stacks. Which makes it very powerful against air, to say the least
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On December 14 2015 07:08 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2015 23:50 cop354g wrote:
Fact is, that terran has always been really out of place-race in SC2. Zerg and protoss are far more suited to the fast pace nature of SC2 because of superior mechanics. Terran is extremely inflexible, clunky, and horribly slow race. Its so much easier for especially Zerg to be constantly mobile and take the map while terran is forced to turtle inside 2-3base and every time terran moves out its 100% gamble. Drops are not effective at all in sc2 because defences are so good and terran has hard time fightning straight up so whats left for terran?
Terran issues are biggest in Lotv than ever before with new additions to other races, terrans got just a bone. Terran is the slow race? Go back to 2015 PvT and watch any good Terran run circles around Protoss who have no way to break up their deathball. Terran has plenty of problems but bio is one of, if not the, most mobile composition in the game.
I think I know what he/she means by "slow". Terran just "feels" more like you're tied down and there's more to keep track of, IMO.
The little things add up. Protoss just needs a single worker to build buildings and drones become buildings, so there's less worker management as far as macro and sim city are concerned. Now, of course there's a disadvantage to each, but mechanically, it's not as cumbersome to deal with. Terran buildings also just take up so much space (and add-ons make this worse!) and it's easier to create an accidental clusterfuck, IMO. And speaking of add-ons, add-on management is an example of another extra little thing you have to worry about. Your unit production stops while add-ons are being built and you'll swap buildings to trade add-ons pretty regularly.
Now, let's talk units. Terran has a lot of units with different "modes". Hellion/hellbat, viking transformations, Liberator, widow mine, and the siege tank.
Three of these units need to be 100% immobilized to perform a specific function. Do not underestimate how cumbersome and annoying this is to manage! Zerg has lurkers to manage, while Protoss has zero units that become 100% immobilized to function (please correct me if I'm wrong). In fact, Disruptors have great move speed, Colossi can traverse cliffs and don't collide with other ground units, and Tempests are air units. The latter two, despite having slow movement speed, are less of a chore to manage.
Lastly, I'll just comment about unit production overall. I don't think Terran has any advantages here (besides reactors, I guess?). Warpgates shouldn't need an explanation, and while it is a disadvantage to have to produce workers and army from the same building for Zerg, I believe this is strongly outweighed by the flexibility and ease of building management it provides, as far as chores are concerned.
Now, of course every race has their advantages and disadvantages and "chores" they have to worry about. That's a given. But I'm convinced that Terran's just more cumbersome to manage, if you look at the bigger picture.
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On December 15 2015 03:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 03:04 WrathSCII wrote:On December 15 2015 02:54 Xequecal wrote:
Well, you could make Tempests.....oh wait Zerg has Vipers, all air is useless. Ah come on! Tempests 450 HP and PB does 70. For real! It does 90 and it stacks. Which makes it very powerful against air, to say the least
While PB is OP as hell imo, tempests really shouldn't have large issues with it. They are very strong, and if you just tell them to attack a viper, they will do from large range, which is good point one (so more vipers die before they can cast), and this also means they automatically drift further apart. If you do the same with voidrays, they will be horribly clumped, and they will all die in 4 seconds.
As terran I nowadays vs zerg always go for battlecruisers. They have alot less range than tempests, so they stack more, but with their HP they can handle quite a bit. Although they definately are still affected quite a bit by PB. On the other hand it is really pleasing to see Vipers trying to run for safety while Yamato cannon is powering up. You can run, but you can't hide .
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You can shift-click a worker back to mining after constructing something, so it doesn't take any more attention than Protoss. Zerg actually has the hardest job here because you have to account for the fact that the worker is permanently gone. You also have two seperate rally points (worker/units) and have to deal with spreading creep as well.
Protoss has to constantly deal with their short range units (Zealot/Adept) getting stuck behind their longer range units (Stalkers/Immortals) and not contributing to the fight. Also Sentries have longer attack range than Guardian Shield range and don't cover melee units unless manually microed forward. And don't get me started on the stupidity that Barrier is.
Terran bio all has the same attack range and same move speed. You lose a little Marine DPS if you stutter step them at the cadence of Marauders in one ball but that's all you lose, you don't have units that can't shoot at their targets because they're stuck or out of range.
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On December 15 2015 03:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 03:04 WrathSCII wrote:On December 15 2015 02:54 Xequecal wrote:
Well, you could make Tempests.....oh wait Zerg has Vipers, all air is useless. Ah come on! Tempests 450 HP and PB does 70. For real! It does 90 and it stacks. Which makes it very powerful against air, to say the least
But 90 is not that much. Even if you could perfectly stack 3-4 so they affect each of those Tempests over their full duration, that's still worse than just having the same gas/supply in consistent anti-air units. Or just abducting the Tempests to begin with. (yeah, you can abduct+parasitic bomb with a single 200 energy viper, but even with the energy regeneration it takes a very slow game to actually use that; and then your opponent's, lower supply energy units should play a major factor in as well)
I don't think the problem with the PB is Capital Ships. It's rather that it is too good against smaller/lower HP air units which will stack very hard naturally because they have a smaller separation radius and occur in larger numbers which makes it too hard, or even impossible, to spread them properly. And you can't just skip on those units. Not even in a slow game, because they fulfill important roles in many scenarios that you can basically force as zerg, mainly through broodlords.
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On December 14 2015 17:36 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2015 15:46 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 13 2015 05:07 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Parasitic Bomb needs immediate nerfs, and Photon Overcharge does not need "compensation". It's spammable and needs a straight nerf. I don't like Photon Overcharge at all, but Protoss is seriously hurting right now and needs it to just stay in the game early. So Protoss does need compensation of some sort if it is going to be nerfed. Yes, but they need real compensation. To be fair, maybe (initially) the Photon Overcharge needs compensation too, but it is a bandaid for the real problem. To be fair, I am not a toss player, and I don't know their exact problems really. Few days ago I saw Harstem fight Polt with purely gateway units vs terran who besides MMM also had ghosts and liberators. Sure in the end he lost, but I don't think we can with adepts really say their gateway units are shit. Maybe give zealots instead of their stupid damage on impact with charge, high armor when charge is activated for a flat few seconds or so. Or hell, just reboost Colossus to where it used to be. At the same time I am also not really a fan of the adepts who murder an entire mineral line in a few seconds and teleport around. Unless you got your Cyclone in the right position, and you completely ruin the day of the protoss. Quite frankly, if with whatever option that adept drop is nerfed, I don't think regarding PvT openings protoss will suffer that much, for starters it might make air openings viable again. Right now I just always make sure I got a cyclone, since otherwise adept drop pretty much kills me instantly. However it also means that everytime I see an oracle it is generally easy kill for my Cyclone. And then the problem is of course everything is connected. As terran I could possibly agree that the Cyclone is as early unit on the strong side. Nerfing it would help protoss with the early harrasment, but at the same time Cyclone is really not in a position to be nerfed. I don't think that lockon is ever going to be a good idea. Anyway back to the original point: I don't see the photon overcharge as something any race, including protoss, should be happy about. It is just to hide the real problems. If it were up to me I would even remove the entire MsC. Make sure they don't need to rely on their supply depots doing terrible damage, and if they need something against lategame drops/runbys, add an upgrade, we can call it photon overcharge, which boosts photon cannons. That said, I have my doubts if the solution to flanks/runbys/drops should be that you just make some static defense and go back your deathball.
In regards to the Cyclone and Adepts, I like them both in the matchup, but feel they are a bit too one dimensional. Cyclones just shut everything down defensively too easily, but aren't great beyond stopping harass. The Adept is a bit too good early, maybe more of it's attack speed should be moved to the upgrade.
It would neat if Cyclones were toned down a bit early and then give some kind of upgrade to make them more effect late., Like an upgrade that allowed them to go into a Siege Mode and bombard a specific area of the map with rockets from a distance of ~12. They would lock down like a Siege Tank and then slowly shoot rockets at random spots in the AOE indefinitely. The rockets wouldn't deal huge damage, but it could be neat harrass for hitting minerals lines or creating a no man's land in front a Siege line. Probably overlaps too much with Liberators though.
I think I'll write a long article on this, but SC2 right now is suffering from a lack of cohesive design ideas. Blizzard wants there to be action all over the map. But they also want you to have tons of unit abilities to micro. Those are mutually exclusive concepts. You can't be everywhere at once to micro these abilities. Fancy abilities work in League of Legends because you control a single unit, but they only work well in an RTS if you have deathballs. Years of creating the custom map Coming of the Horde for WC3 gives me extensive experience in that area.
SC2 needs to decide what it wants to be.
It is no wonder that Zerg with such basic units that don't have many abilities (Lings, Roaches, Hydras, Lurkers and Ravagers) and don't require much micro are destroying Protoss, which has increasingly become reliant on abilities. Even the best players would struggle to land Disruptor shots if a Zerg player splits their army into two groups and attacks different locations. And God forbid they split it into three or more groups, then even the pros are screwed. The Protoss units without micro are too weak against Zerg units without micro at the moment.
Reverting the Colossus nerf is a great idea to help solve that problem.
Finally, to return to Photon Overcharge, it is a bandaid. But I don't know how I'll stop Liberator harass and early Terran or the variety of early Zerg timings without it. My units just aren't good enough early to stand toe to toe with Ravagers and the like. And I can't produce super expensive units early because I have to expand. In HOTS and WOL Protoss would expand the slowest of the three races, and for a reason: Protoss needed certain units to do so safely.
I predicted the economic changes would hurt Protoss the most, and it is coming true.
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On December 15 2015 03:34 Xequecal wrote:
You can shift-click a worker back to mining after constructing something, so it doesn't take any more attention than Protoss.
This isn't strictly true. You have to shift click them back like protoss, but protoss can do it all with a single probe. So Terran has to go grab N SCVs to make N buildings, give the build commands, shift queue back. Protoss has to grab 1 probe to make N buildings, give the build commands, and shift queue back. Zerg has to grab N workers, and give the build commands, but no shift queue back (although I guess you could add the 4 s d [N times] to make new drones).
The difference isn't necessarily very significant, but there is, at least, a difference.
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On December 15 2015 03:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 03:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 15 2015 03:04 WrathSCII wrote:On December 15 2015 02:54 Xequecal wrote:
Well, you could make Tempests.....oh wait Zerg has Vipers, all air is useless. Ah come on! Tempests 450 HP and PB does 70. For real! It does 90 and it stacks. Which makes it very powerful against air, to say the least But 90 is not that much. Even if you could perfectly stack 3-4 so they affect each of those Tempests over their full duration, that's still worse than just having the same gas/supply in consistent anti-air units. Or just abducting the Tempests to begin with. (yeah, you can abduct+parasitic bomb with a single 200 energy viper, but even with the energy regeneration it takes a very slow game to actually use that; and then your opponent's, lower supply energy units should play a major factor in as well) I don't think the problem with the PB is Capital Ships. It's rather that it is too good against smaller/lower HP air units which will stack very hard naturally because they have a smaller separation radius and occur in larger numbers which makes it too hard, or even impossible, to spread them properly. And you can't just skip on those units. Not even in a slow game, because they fulfill important roles in many scenarios that you can basically force as zerg, mainly through broodlords.
Nah sure. Against bigger ships it isn't nearly as strong naturally.
I don't know how strong it really is there (not enough experience with it), i just assumed it still might be pretty good. (not that it kills everything, but that doesn'thave to be the point imo)
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On December 15 2015 04:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 03:59 Big J wrote:On December 15 2015 03:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 15 2015 03:04 WrathSCII wrote:On December 15 2015 02:54 Xequecal wrote:
Well, you could make Tempests.....oh wait Zerg has Vipers, all air is useless. Ah come on! Tempests 450 HP and PB does 70. For real! It does 90 and it stacks. Which makes it very powerful against air, to say the least But 90 is not that much. Even if you could perfectly stack 3-4 so they affect each of those Tempests over their full duration, that's still worse than just having the same gas/supply in consistent anti-air units. Or just abducting the Tempests to begin with. (yeah, you can abduct+parasitic bomb with a single 200 energy viper, but even with the energy regeneration it takes a very slow game to actually use that; and then your opponent's, lower supply energy units should play a major factor in as well) I don't think the problem with the PB is Capital Ships. It's rather that it is too good against smaller/lower HP air units which will stack very hard naturally because they have a smaller separation radius and occur in larger numbers which makes it too hard, or even impossible, to spread them properly. And you can't just skip on those units. Not even in a slow game, because they fulfill important roles in many scenarios that you can basically force as zerg, mainly through broodlords. Nah sure. Against bigger ships it isn't nearly as strong naturally. I don't know how strong it really is there (not enough experience with it), i just assumed it still might be pretty good. (not that it kills everything, but that doesn't have to be the point imo)
Right now Zerg just has too many options. Roach/Hydra/Ravager/Lurker can crush Protoss alone, but if they struggle a bit not only can they do a big swap into Ling/Muta to punish the type of Protoss army that could stand up to Roach/Hydra/Ravager/Lurker, but they could also add in Infestors or Vipers and use their spells to decimate said Protoss army.
So basically Protoss has to build an army of everything, and at no point can they say "well I'm really going to punish Roach/Hydra/Ravager army with Adepts/Immortals/Sentries and then win the game" because the Zerg could easily remax on Mutas and destroy said Protoss army, and Protoss doesn't have the ability to remax quickly and counter that Zerg army.
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In regards to the Cyclone and Adepts, I like them both in the matchup, but feel they are a bit too one dimensional. Cyclones just shut everything down defensively too easily, but aren't great beyond stopping harass. The Adept is a bit too good early, maybe more of it's attack speed should be moved to the upgrade.
I think it would neat if Cyclones were toned down a bit early, but then given an upgrade that allowed them to go into a Siege Mode and bombard an area of the map with rockets from a distance of say 12. They would lock down like a Siege Tank and then slowlyshoot rockets at random spots in the AOE indefinitely. The rockets wouldn't deal huge damage, but it could be neat harrass for hitting minerals lines or creating a no man's land in front a Siege line.
What you describe is the only thing I like about the Cyclone. Its placement in the techtree makes it so that it creates a good metagame dynamic in which you can shut down someone for blindly rushing you, with the tradeoff that you take a disadvantage against someone who is just greedy if you make that investment. I find it nonesensical that if you are making defensive moves that are already punishable through a good read and economical play you should additionally be vulnerable to certain offensive plays (except bad execution of course). The early game punishment to playing defensive should still be playing economic, not "that other attack I can dice-roll".
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On December 15 2015 03:34 Xequecal wrote:
You can shift-click a worker back to mining after constructing something, so it doesn't take any more attention than Protoss. Zerg actually has the hardest job here because you have to account for the fact that the worker is permanently gone. You also have two seperate rally points (worker/units) and have to deal with spreading creep as well.
I think Zerg may have had a much harder time, but now that the game tells you how many drones are mining and on gas, it's really not a big deal anymore. Two rally points is actually a benefit to help keep workers and army separate, and doesn't require much attention. Injects are really the obnoxious mechanic they have to worry about, but at least they've gotten some quality-of-life improvements in that respect (as have Protoss with their weaker, but easier to manage chrono boost). All-in-all, there's a net gain in time and energy from not having to fumble around with multiple, unique production facilities. Creep spread is something else to keep them busy for sure, but that serves a purpose beyond macro, giving them the best, consistent vision of the map the game has to offer, along with overlord spread. Keep in mind that, although the other races don't have creep, they still have to scout and have good map awareness. You may mention scans here, but they come at an opportunity cost which Terran are balanced around (mules), and you're taking a shot in the dark if you're scanning anything but an enemy base.
Overall, I'm well aware of the mechanics you mentioned here. Not all mechanics are created equal and they're not intended to be. But I'm describing why I think Terran is particularly cumbersome, despite each race having something different to worry about. I wouldn't recommend Terran to brand new players for any reasons other than familiarity because they're human.
This isn't intended to be a "whine", per-se. I'm just communicating why I have a harder time playing Terran than the other two races.
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Personally I don't feel like the downside of making one is significant enough. On the other hand, something like that is pretty much needed due to the ton of gimmicky stuff toss has which will destroy your mineral line, but it is a bandaid to solve a problem which shouldn't have been there in the first place.
On December 15 2015 04:00 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2015 17:36 Sissors wrote:On December 14 2015 15:46 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 13 2015 05:07 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Parasitic Bomb needs immediate nerfs, and Photon Overcharge does not need "compensation". It's spammable and needs a straight nerf. I don't like Photon Overcharge at all, but Protoss is seriously hurting right now and needs it to just stay in the game early. So Protoss does need compensation of some sort if it is going to be nerfed. Yes, but they need real compensation. To be fair, maybe (initially) the Photon Overcharge needs compensation too, but it is a bandaid for the real problem. To be fair, I am not a toss player, and I don't know their exact problems really. Few days ago I saw Harstem fight Polt with purely gateway units vs terran who besides MMM also had ghosts and liberators. Sure in the end he lost, but I don't think we can with adepts really say their gateway units are shit. Maybe give zealots instead of their stupid damage on impact with charge, high armor when charge is activated for a flat few seconds or so. Or hell, just reboost Colossus to where it used to be. At the same time I am also not really a fan of the adepts who murder an entire mineral line in a few seconds and teleport around. Unless you got your Cyclone in the right position, and you completely ruin the day of the protoss. Quite frankly, if with whatever option that adept drop is nerfed, I don't think regarding PvT openings protoss will suffer that much, for starters it might make air openings viable again. Right now I just always make sure I got a cyclone, since otherwise adept drop pretty much kills me instantly. However it also means that everytime I see an oracle it is generally easy kill for my Cyclone. And then the problem is of course everything is connected. As terran I could possibly agree that the Cyclone is as early unit on the strong side. Nerfing it would help protoss with the early harrasment, but at the same time Cyclone is really not in a position to be nerfed. I don't think that lockon is ever going to be a good idea. Anyway back to the original point: I don't see the photon overcharge as something any race, including protoss, should be happy about. It is just to hide the real problems. If it were up to me I would even remove the entire MsC. Make sure they don't need to rely on their supply depots doing terrible damage, and if they need something against lategame drops/runbys, add an upgrade, we can call it photon overcharge, which boosts photon cannons. That said, I have my doubts if the solution to flanks/runbys/drops should be that you just make some static defense and go back your deathball. But I don't know how I'll stop Liberator harass and early Terran or the variety of early Zerg timings without it. My units just aren't good enough early to stand toe to toe with Ravagers and the like.
Delete Liberator, make siege tank more like it, give its anti air attack to the cyclone. Of course not going to happen, and leaves us with a ton of other issues, however:
As a toss, imagine you don't have blink stalkers (because they are cheating). You have to go up a ramp, which is covered by three siege tanks. What do you do? Probably laugh and send a few random units. If the ramp isn't blocked literally everything protoss has will kill them (with the exception of sentry, and maybe stalkers because we didnt include blink). Now same scenario, but we got three liberators covering the ramp. There is no way in hell you are going up that ramp with anything before you took care of them.
Anyway I fully agree we got too many abilities. Of course it depends for what you want in a game, but I feel the strategy part, and even the tactics part, is getting less and less relevant, while it is more becoming a moba with more units. Quite frankly in lets say half a year it will probably be better, but it will still be one problem which was caused when trying to solve another problem being solved by something which causes yet another issue.
Btw since I am not terran it is a bit theory crafting, but I wouldn't be surprised when zerg start figuring out they can also use Nydus worm late game, that they will do even better. Imagine you have your maxed army, and a nydus appears in your main. If you recall your entire army the zerg will kill at least one expo. If you recall half your army you are split up. If you go for the basetrade he goes for his initial plan: Send through 1-2 ultras, 2 queens, and 20 cracklings. Your base is gone, covered in creep (those queens were there for a reason), and he still has the majority of his army to defend.
Against terran it would probably be even more effective. (With as only good news you can at least save part of your buildings).
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On December 15 2015 05:26 Sissors wrote:Personally I don't feel like the downside of making one is significant enough. On the other hand, something like that is pretty much needed due to the ton of gimmicky stuff toss has which will destroy your mineral line, but it is a bandaid to solve a problem which shouldn't have been there in the first place. Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 04:00 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 14 2015 17:36 Sissors wrote:On December 14 2015 15:46 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 13 2015 05:07 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Parasitic Bomb needs immediate nerfs, and Photon Overcharge does not need "compensation". It's spammable and needs a straight nerf. I don't like Photon Overcharge at all, but Protoss is seriously hurting right now and needs it to just stay in the game early. So Protoss does need compensation of some sort if it is going to be nerfed. Yes, but they need real compensation. To be fair, maybe (initially) the Photon Overcharge needs compensation too, but it is a bandaid for the real problem. To be fair, I am not a toss player, and I don't know their exact problems really. Few days ago I saw Harstem fight Polt with purely gateway units vs terran who besides MMM also had ghosts and liberators. Sure in the end he lost, but I don't think we can with adepts really say their gateway units are shit. Maybe give zealots instead of their stupid damage on impact with charge, high armor when charge is activated for a flat few seconds or so. Or hell, just reboost Colossus to where it used to be. At the same time I am also not really a fan of the adepts who murder an entire mineral line in a few seconds and teleport around. Unless you got your Cyclone in the right position, and you completely ruin the day of the protoss. Quite frankly, if with whatever option that adept drop is nerfed, I don't think regarding PvT openings protoss will suffer that much, for starters it might make air openings viable again. Right now I just always make sure I got a cyclone, since otherwise adept drop pretty much kills me instantly. However it also means that everytime I see an oracle it is generally easy kill for my Cyclone. And then the problem is of course everything is connected. As terran I could possibly agree that the Cyclone is as early unit on the strong side. Nerfing it would help protoss with the early harrasment, but at the same time Cyclone is really not in a position to be nerfed. I don't think that lockon is ever going to be a good idea. Anyway back to the original point: I don't see the photon overcharge as something any race, including protoss, should be happy about. It is just to hide the real problems. If it were up to me I would even remove the entire MsC. Make sure they don't need to rely on their supply depots doing terrible damage, and if they need something against lategame drops/runbys, add an upgrade, we can call it photon overcharge, which boosts photon cannons. That said, I have my doubts if the solution to flanks/runbys/drops should be that you just make some static defense and go back your deathball. But I don't know how I'll stop Liberator harass and early Terran or the variety of early Zerg timings without it. My units just aren't good enough early to stand toe to toe with Ravagers and the like. Delete Liberator, make siege tank more like it, give its anti air attack to the cyclone. Of course not going to happen, and leaves us with a ton of other issues, however: As a toss, imagine you don't have blink stalkers (because they are cheating). You have to go up a ramp, which is covered by three siege tanks. What do you do? Probably laugh and send a few random units. If the ramp isn't blocked literally everything protoss has will kill them (with the exception of sentry, and maybe stalkers because we didnt include blink). Now same scenario, but we got three liberators covering the ramp. There is no way in hell you are going up that ramp with anything before you took care of them. Anyway I fully agree we got too many abilities. Of course it depends for what you want in a game, but I feel the strategy part, and even the tactics part, is getting less and less relevant, while it is more becoming a moba with more units. Quite frankly in lets say half a year it will probably be better, but it will still be one problem which was caused when trying to solve another problem being solved by something which causes yet another issue. Btw since I am not terran it is a bit theory crafting, but I wouldn't be surprised when zerg start figuring out they can also use Nydus worm late game, that they will do even better. Imagine you have your maxed army, and a nydus appears in your main. If you recall your entire army the zerg will kill at least one expo. If you recall half your army you are split up. If you go for the basetrade he goes for his initial plan: Send through 1-2 ultras, 2 queens, and 20 cracklings. Your base is gone, covered in creep (those queens were there for a reason), and he still has the majority of his army to defend. Against terran it would probably be even more effective. (With as only good news you can at least save part of your buildings).
Gonna be honest, I like the Liberator in concept and it's one of the few units made decently in execution. Clear advantages, clear weaknesses. It doesn't need to be deleted. The numbers just need to be tweaked.
-Require a Tech Lab for Liberator (it's insane that it doesn't).
-Lower Liberator AtG damage.
-Make upgrades allow Liberators to scale well into the lategame.
If Tanks are buffed, you would have the single target damage of the Liberator and the splash damage of the tanks synergizing wonderfully.
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I don't think reactored is that bad if you consider its air-to-air role, I think being tech-labbed might be too much for that (or maybe not). Forcing a (max 100/100) resource for anti ground attack like in beta is also an option, although in principle until you really get late game, the only reason the liberator is used early on is the ability to destroy a mineral line. Ideally I would like to have it useful for defensive purposes, but not as good vs mineral lines. I don't really think that is possible however, so then I guess the defensive purposes will have to go.
In general with the cost price of the liberator I don't think the reactor is that big a deal anyway.
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On December 15 2015 04:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +In regards to the Cyclone and Adepts, I like them both in the matchup, but feel they are a bit too one dimensional. Cyclones just shut everything down defensively too easily, but aren't great beyond stopping harass. The Adept is a bit too good early, maybe more of it's attack speed should be moved to the upgrade.
I think it would neat if Cyclones were toned down a bit early, but then given an upgrade that allowed them to go into a Siege Mode and bombard an area of the map with rockets from a distance of say 12. They would lock down like a Siege Tank and then slowly shoot rockets at random spots in the AOE indefinitely. The rockets wouldn't deal huge damage, but it could be neat harrass for hitting minerals lines or creating a no man's land in front a Siege line. What you describe is the only thing I like about the Cyclone. Its placement in the techtree makes it so that it creates a good metagame dynamic in which you can shut down someone for blindly rushing you, with the tradeoff that you take a disadvantage against someone who is just greedy if you make that investment. I find it nonesensical that if you are making defensive moves that are already punishable through a good read and economical play you should additionally be vulnerable to certain offensive plays (except bad execution of course). The early game punishment to playing defensive should still be playing economic, not "that other attack I can dice-roll".
We absolutely don't want a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, or a situation where if you build X, you are safe. We want skill to be involved here, and that was what I was advocating for.
It isn't that we can't have defensive units that can hold off harassment or attacks, it is that they should require skill to use, just as the offensive tools should. The Cyclone shuts everything down without much skill, much like Pylon Overcharge which is why they both should be changed.
I also think you are unfairly targeting aggressive play when it comes to luck and "dice rolls." I watched State open Nexus first versus Zerg yesterday and fall way behind versus a 12 pool. So dice rolling comes in all forms, in fact the entire game is dice rolling. If safe play beats aggressive dice rolling, and economic dice rolling beats safe play, what is safe play then? It is a dice roll, because if you opponent plays very economically, you lose.
If someone sees a Stargate and thinks their opponent is going to use it aggressively, they'll throw down Spore Crawlers and Drone. Every once in a while I just 7 Gate off a scouted Stargate (without making anything from the Stargate), because Zergs so often do that, and with great success. Both players rolled the dice.
And therefore the game is about making reads and reacting to them, not blindly selecting a strategy. But my point is that just because you make the right read and prepare defenses, doesn't mean it should be devoid of micro and skill in defending. Certain champions in LoL essentially hard counter other ones, but the player with the countered champion can mitigate the affects by playing well.
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On December 15 2015 08:11 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 04:24 Big J wrote:In regards to the Cyclone and Adepts, I like them both in the matchup, but feel they are a bit too one dimensional. Cyclones just shut everything down defensively too easily, but aren't great beyond stopping harass. The Adept is a bit too good early, maybe more of it's attack speed should be moved to the upgrade.
I think it would neat if Cyclones were toned down a bit early, but then given an upgrade that allowed them to go into a Siege Mode and bombard an area of the map with rockets from a distance of say 12. They would lock down like a Siege Tank and then slowly shoot rockets at random spots in the AOE indefinitely. The rockets wouldn't deal huge damage, but it could be neat harrass for hitting minerals lines or creating a no man's land in front a Siege line. What you describe is the only thing I like about the Cyclone. Its placement in the techtree makes it so that it creates a good metagame dynamic in which you can shut down someone for blindly rushing you, with the tradeoff that you take a disadvantage against someone who is just greedy if you make that investment. I find it nonesensical that if you are making defensive moves that are already punishable through a good read and economical play you should additionally be vulnerable to certain offensive plays (except bad execution of course). The early game punishment to playing defensive should still be playing economic, not "that other attack I can dice-roll". We absolutely don't want a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, or a situation where if you build X, you are safe. We want skill to be involved here, and that was what I was advocating for.
Well I think we disagree on a fundamental level here. I'm fully for having X that makes you safe in the game if it comes for a cost that can be abused. I absolutely hate it that in this game my opponent's can decide at any minute in the early game to try and win, completely disregarding what situation the game is actually in. That's how a metagame - i.e. strategical interaction - is created. I do something that costs me money, you abuse that by expanding faster and getting an advantage. Or I don't take that investment and play greedy and you punish that by doing damage.
And yes, we want it to be about skill. Attacking despite your opponent having X is the epitome of lacking skill.
And furthermore I think the cyclone requires quite some skill to use properly in those low economy situations. There is a ton that can go wrong, you need to babysit it to begin with, if it locks-on wrong that makes it a lot harder, it needs to be at the right place to begin with and you only need a few seconds to make an oracle pay off or get a big warp-in of adepts of. Also the vision requirement of lock-on makes it so that very frequently skilled players can escape the cyclone. The unit is pretty much useless against all other units on a-move.
Not to mention, that I don't even think that the Cyclone really deals with everything that well. Protoss is allinning left and right against Terran, it can't be thaaaaat good to begin with if that is still a thing or everyone would have caught on to it.
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Ultras: "you need to end the game before X unit comes out" should never be considered game balance. It implies that winning is a choice, and that prior to the unit being made the opposition was not trying to win. Game balance should mean, both players can deal no damage, and still be on equal footing.
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On December 17 2015 03:19 nottapro wrote:
Ultras: "you need to end the game before X unit comes out" should never be considered game balance. It implies that winning is a choice, and that prior to the unit being made the opposition was not trying to win. Game balance should mean, both players can deal no damage, and still be on equal footing.
Agreed, but this same argument has been used a million times for this game already - the most common response to Zerg being completely unable to beat an endgame toss deathball or skytoss was 'dont let them get there'
In any case, there are a couple things that need to be sorted out - is a late game ultra-gas heavy melee unit really too strong, or are Terran players trying to use the same old strategies of MMM spam and complaining that they don't work?
It's probably a little bit of both, but don't expect them to nerf ultras in the way that you want - more likely they'll make you use ghosts more with a buff to their anti-ultralisk capabilities (maybe + massive damage on snipe or something).
Blizzard is done with MMM being able to efficiently deal with every single unit Zerg has, so that's not coming back.
Also I think BCs should receive a hefty buff - more damage per shot with a slower ROF would be ideal. I think it's sillly that they pepper little blasters which suffer badly from high armor count - they should be an ideal counter to Ultralisks.
But they have to make sure that they don't tip the air war too heavily in favor of skyterran vs Zerg - where their higher damage per shot means they poop on corruptor/muta/viper too easily.
Could probably just buff their ATG while keeping their ATA the same.
Also, re: parasitic bomb - yeah that one is going to pretty much stay. Any nerf will be minor, but they should probably buff Infestors so that they're not so shitty - right now they're just not worth their cost + APM requirement to use.
Also this game suffers from purity issues - there are simply too many units because they needed new units to sell expansions. Swarm Hosts are simply not needed in the game and should be removed. Cyclones should be removed as well, and at least one Protoss unit should be removed (oracle or tempest) with the necessary balance changes after the fact.
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On December 15 2015 04:15 BronzeKnee wrote:
in Infestors or Vipers and use their spells to decimate said Protoss army.
When you write stuff like that you lose all credibility. 'Infestors or Vipers' aren't 'decimating' any protoss army. Maybe Vipers if you massed 15 phoenixes, but Infestors Are Not Good and you aren't being 'decimated' by blinding cloud.
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Ravagers infestors ultras are totally imba.
Just watched the SSL qualifier day 1 Maru vs Byul, that's really sad to see how the game is broken.
Nerf marauders and buff ultras is a very bad decision. Ultras are unkillable.
Anyway only ravagers infestors are pretty good, but with invincible ultras it is disgusting.
They also have to give ghost a one shot snipe because with channling they dont have time to kill ultras fast enough before to get fungal or raped by banelings/ultras/zerglings
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If only maru made more (bio) ghosts, to counter the counter to bio. split/micro stutterstep and do snipe, thats all it takes for maru. Ultras with banelings need how much micro?
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Between pylon overcharge and current ultra, Terrans are having an understandably hard time. Why can't they see this?
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So far 5 zergs and 5 protoss are qualified for SSL. No terrans
Ultras are imba, pylone overcharge, disruptors ( not only in tvp but also pvp looks like weird since disruptors ) and warp prism adept so effective, ravagers infestors too.
They nerfed quite fast liberators cyclones and they cancelled herx, but when it is time to evaluate protoss and zerg they prefer to be very careful.
In fact only terrans have to adapt and find counter, and not to be imba even just a week, they dont let toss and zerg find a way to counter the new terran units.
If they are imba I agree to nerf but that would be fair to do the same in the other case.
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Tanks are supposed to be good vs ultras tho?
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On December 15 2015 04:05 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 03:34 Xequecal wrote:
You can shift-click a worker back to mining after constructing something, so it doesn't take any more attention than Protoss. This isn't strictly true. You have to shift click them back like protoss, but protoss can do it all with a single probe. So Terran has to go grab N SCVs to make N buildings, give the build commands, shift queue back. Protoss has to grab 1 probe to make N buildings, give the build commands, and shift queue back. Zerg has to grab N workers, and give the build commands, but no shift queue back (although I guess you could add the 4 s d [N times] to make new drones). The difference isn't necessarily very significant, but there is, at least, a difference.
you can select 16 workers, then shift click 3 barracks and only three will come off the line.
Protoss and terran macro is actually pretty similar difficulty wise.
Some noteable differences are -
1. ) Terran needs to take more care in building placement, since addons + production is oddly shaped and often works like a marine & tank trap. Warpgate warps in everything instantly, the only 2 production facilits that can block units in is the Robo and the nexus.
2) Reactors and tech labs actually force you to think about your building twice before you can produce from it and they take MUCH longer from the time you build them - to the first unit that comes out.
While a gateway might take lets say 50 seconds to build, once its complete, after 5+5 seconds you have your units.
for terran the barracks takes 50 seconds, then you fail the addons for a few - then you produce the addon, then you produce the unit and 2 minutes later the unit comes out.
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On December 15 2015 09:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 08:11 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 15 2015 04:24 Big J wrote:In regards to the Cyclone and Adepts, I like them both in the matchup, but feel they are a bit too one dimensional. Cyclones just shut everything down defensively too easily, but aren't great beyond stopping harass. The Adept is a bit too good early, maybe more of it's attack speed should be moved to the upgrade.
I think it would neat if Cyclones were toned down a bit early, but then given an upgrade that allowed them to go into a Siege Mode and bombard an area of the map with rockets from a distance of say 12. They would lock down like a Siege Tank and then slowly shoot rockets at random spots in the AOE indefinitely. The rockets wouldn't deal huge damage, but it could be neat harrass for hitting minerals lines or creating a no man's land in front a Siege line. What you describe is the only thing I like about the Cyclone. Its placement in the techtree makes it so that it creates a good metagame dynamic in which you can shut down someone for blindly rushing you, with the tradeoff that you take a disadvantage against someone who is just greedy if you make that investment. I find it nonesensical that if you are making defensive moves that are already punishable through a good read and economical play you should additionally be vulnerable to certain offensive plays (except bad execution of course). The early game punishment to playing defensive should still be playing economic, not "that other attack I can dice-roll". We absolutely don't want a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, or a situation where if you build X, you are safe. We want skill to be involved here, and that was what I was advocating for. Well I think we disagree on a fundamental level here. I'm fully for having X that makes you safe in the game if it comes for a cost that can be abused. I absolutely hate it that in this game my opponent's can decide at any minute in the early game to try and win, completely disregarding what situation the game is actually in. That's how a metagame - i.e. strategical interaction - is created. I do something that costs me money, you abuse that by expanding faster and getting an advantage. Or I don't take that investment and play greedy and you punish that by doing damage. And yes, we want it to be about skill. Attacking despite your opponent having X is the epitome of lacking skill. And furthermore I think the cyclone requires quite some skill to use properly in those low economy situations. There is a ton that can go wrong, you need to babysit it to begin with, if it locks-on wrong that makes it a lot harder, it needs to be at the right place to begin with and you only need a few seconds to make an oracle pay off or get a big warp-in of adepts of. Also the vision requirement of lock-on makes it so that very frequently skilled players can escape the cyclone. The unit is pretty much useless against all other units on a-move. Not to mention, that I don't even think that the Cyclone really deals with everything that well. Protoss is allinning left and right against Terran, it can't be thaaaaat good to begin with if that is still a thing or everyone would have caught on to it.
Cyclone really shines in low unit situations, but once certain critical point hits, say 6 stalkers vs 6 cyclone, it really isnt that good unless you have scans. It dies way too fast to remain locked on without burning a scan and basically needs to be hit before it can lock on. Low HP and needing to be hit before locking on means a disaster really
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Ye, cyclones seems to suck in medium armee. In small unit counts they are good and fun to use imo.
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@Maps - I agree that the maps aren't horrible. We rarely veto maps--because, why?--but last time around we did veto Bridgehead because that map was epic in how bad it was. Frankly, I think one of the biggest issues is the sheer size of these maps. They just seem to favor Zerg is such a big way. Maps where a third base is impossible for Terran need to be smaller or we'll never defeat Zerg, lol. Come on, guys.
@Ultralisks - I think literally almost every players, even Zergs, agree that Chitonous Plating is too good. Maybe un-nerf the marauder? The Marauder didn't even need a nerf. That would help.
@Parasitic Bomb - Viper might be the most OP unit in the entire game. It has energy, but you can recharge it with minerals. It can snipe high-value targets from insane range. It has a spell that prevents Terran from attacking (lolreally?). It has a spell that guarantees they auto-win a mass air battle. Remove it's ability to recharge energy, or at least make the recharge ability leach vespene gas from an extractor.
RE: Liberators and Disruptors - Two points here.
(1) Please move the Liberator range upgrade to the fusion core. This +4 range buff is at the very end of Terran's tech tree. We went from a Liberator with a small attack radius but a large range, to a Liberator with a small attack radius, a small range, that requires a fusion core then a tech lab then an expensive research! Ha. Come one. Move the upgrade to the fusion core. Does anyone disagree with this? Additionally, since we're talking ultra late-game tech for this upgrade, have it give a minor buff to the transform time in and out of Defender Mode. We need this.
(2) Disruptors - I don't know. I literally don't know. But we (Terrans) need something here. They're too good and permanently prevent a proper engagement. It's possible that fixing Liberator range helps with this interaction, but right now the interaction is bad.
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On December 18 2015 01:24 TimeSpiral wrote:
@Maps - I agree that the maps aren't horrible. We rarely veto maps--because, why?--but last time around we did veto Bridgehead because that map was epic in how bad it was. Frankly, I think one of the biggest issues is the sheer size of these maps. They just seem to favor Zerg is such a big way. Maps where a third base is impossible for Terran need to be smaller or we'll never defeat Zerg, lol. Come on, guys.
@Ultralisks - I think literally almost every players, even Zergs, agree that Chitonous Plating is too good. Maybe un-nerf the marauder? The Marauder didn't even need a nerf. That would help.
@Parasitic Bomb - Viper might be the most OP unit in the entire game. It has energy, but you can recharge it with minerals. It can snipe high-value targets from insane range. It has a spell that prevents Terran from attacking (lolreally?). It has a spell that guarantees they auto-win a mass air battle. Remove it's ability to recharge energy, or at least make the recharge ability leach vespene gas from an extractor.
RE: Liberators and Disruptors - Two points here.
(1) Please move the Liberator range upgrade to the fusion core. This +4 range buff is at the very end of Terran's tech tree. We went from a Liberator with a small attack radius but a large range, to a Liberator with a small attack radius, a small range, that requires a fusion core then a tech lab then an expensive research! Ha. Come one. Move the upgrade to the fusion core. Does anyone disagree with this? Additionally, since we're talking ultra late-game tech for this upgrade, have it give a minor buff to the transform time in and out of Defender Mode. We need this.
(2) Disruptors - I don't know. I literally don't know. But we (Terrans) need something here. They're too good and permanently prevent a proper engagement. It's possible that fixing Liberator range helps with this interaction, but right now the interaction is bad.
Very good analysis.
regarding marauders I would be agree since I also saw some games of Heromarine where blink stalker collossi killed all bio units/liberators.
Marauders suck now.
That would help against protoss, against zergs without touching toss and zerg.
For parasitic bomb that needs a nerf because that s really impossible to play air vs zerg this ability is so strong.
All players are saying that but they haven't done anything yet which I do not understand
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
