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Community Feedback Update - December 11 - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
187 CommentsPost a Reply
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J. Corsair
Profile Joined June 2014
United States470 Posts
December 17 2015 09:05 GMT
#181
Between pylon overcharge and current ultra, Terrans are having an understandably hard time. Why can't they see this?
“...it is human nature, I suppose, to be futile and ridiculous.” - Scaramouche
bObA
Profile Joined May 2012
France300 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-17 11:06:16
December 17 2015 11:00 GMT
#182
So far 5 zergs and 5 protoss are qualified for SSL. No terrans

Ultras are imba, pylone overcharge, disruptors ( not only in tvp but also pvp looks like weird since disruptors ) and warp prism adept so effective, ravagers infestors too.

They nerfed quite fast liberators cyclones and they cancelled herx, but when it is time to evaluate protoss and zerg they prefer to be very careful.

In fact only terrans have to adapt and find counter, and not to be imba even just a week, they dont let toss and zerg find a way to counter the new terran units.

If they are imba I agree to nerf but that would be fair to do the same in the other case.
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
December 17 2015 11:30 GMT
#183
Tanks are supposed to be good vs ultras tho?
weikor
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria580 Posts
December 17 2015 12:17 GMT
#184
On December 15 2015 04:05 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2015 03:34 Xequecal wrote:
You can shift-click a worker back to mining after constructing something, so it doesn't take any more attention than Protoss.

This isn't strictly true. You have to shift click them back like protoss, but protoss can do it all with a single probe. So Terran has to go grab N SCVs to make N buildings, give the build commands, shift queue back. Protoss has to grab 1 probe to make N buildings, give the build commands, and shift queue back. Zerg has to grab N workers, and give the build commands, but no shift queue back (although I guess you could add the 4 s d [N times] to make new drones).

The difference isn't necessarily very significant, but there is, at least, a difference.


you can select 16 workers, then shift click 3 barracks and only three will come off the line.
Protoss and terran macro is actually pretty similar difficulty wise.
Some noteable differences are -

1. ) Terran needs to take more care in building placement, since addons + production is oddly shaped and often works like a marine & tank trap. Warpgate warps in everything instantly, the only 2 production facilits that can block units in is the Robo and the nexus.

2) Reactors and tech labs actually force you to think about your building twice before you can produce from it and they take MUCH longer from the time you build them - to the first unit that comes out.

While a gateway might take lets say 50 seconds to build, once its complete, after 5+5 seconds you have your units.
for terran the barracks takes 50 seconds, then you fail the addons for a few - then you produce the addon, then you produce the unit and 2 minutes later the unit comes out.




jinjin5000
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1399 Posts
December 17 2015 13:24 GMT
#185
On December 15 2015 09:15 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2015 08:11 BronzeKnee wrote:
On December 15 2015 04:24 Big J wrote:
In regards to the Cyclone and Adepts, I like them both in the matchup, but feel they are a bit too one dimensional. Cyclones just shut everything down defensively too easily, but aren't great beyond stopping harass. The Adept is a bit too good early, maybe more of it's attack speed should be moved to the upgrade.

I think it would neat if Cyclones were toned down a bit early, but then given an upgrade that allowed them to go into a Siege Mode and bombard an area of the map with rockets from a distance of say 12. They would lock down like a Siege Tank and then slowly shoot rockets at random spots in the AOE indefinitely. The rockets wouldn't deal huge damage, but it could be neat harrass for hitting minerals lines or creating a no man's land in front a Siege line.


What you describe is the only thing I like about the Cyclone. Its placement in the techtree makes it so that it creates a good metagame dynamic in which you can shut down someone for blindly rushing you, with the tradeoff that you take a disadvantage against someone who is just greedy if you make that investment. I find it nonesensical that if you are making defensive moves that are already punishable through a good read and economical play you should additionally be vulnerable to certain offensive plays (except bad execution of course). The early game punishment to playing defensive should still be playing economic, not "that other attack I can dice-roll".


We absolutely don't want a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, or a situation where if you build X, you are safe. We want skill to be involved here, and that was what I was advocating for.


Well I think we disagree on a fundamental level here. I'm fully for having X that makes you safe in the game if it comes for a cost that can be abused. I absolutely hate it that in this game my opponent's can decide at any minute in the early game to try and win, completely disregarding what situation the game is actually in. That's how a metagame - i.e. strategical interaction - is created. I do something that costs me money, you abuse that by expanding faster and getting an advantage. Or I don't take that investment and play greedy and you punish that by doing damage.
And yes, we want it to be about skill. Attacking despite your opponent having X is the epitome of lacking skill.

And furthermore I think the cyclone requires quite some skill to use properly in those low economy situations. There is a ton that can go wrong, you need to babysit it to begin with, if it locks-on wrong that makes it a lot harder, it needs to be at the right place to begin with and you only need a few seconds to make an oracle pay off or get a big warp-in of adepts of. Also the vision requirement of lock-on makes it so that very frequently skilled players can escape the cyclone. The unit is pretty much useless against all other units on a-move.

Not to mention, that I don't even think that the Cyclone really deals with everything that well. Protoss is allinning left and right against Terran, it can't be thaaaaat good to begin with if that is still a thing or everyone would have caught on to it.


Cyclone really shines in low unit situations, but once certain critical point hits, say 6 stalkers vs 6 cyclone, it really isnt that good unless you have scans. It dies way too fast to remain locked on without burning a scan and basically needs to be hit before it can lock on. Low HP and needing to be hit before locking on means a disaster really

Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
December 17 2015 14:28 GMT
#186
Ye, cyclones seems to suck in medium armee. In small unit counts they are good and fun to use imo.
TimeSpiral
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1010 Posts
December 17 2015 16:24 GMT
#187
@Maps - I agree that the maps aren't horrible. We rarely veto maps--because, why?--but last time around we did veto Bridgehead because that map was epic in how bad it was. Frankly, I think one of the biggest issues is the sheer size of these maps. They just seem to favor Zerg is such a big way. Maps where a third base is impossible for Terran need to be smaller or we'll never defeat Zerg, lol. Come on, guys.

@Ultralisks - I think literally almost every players, even Zergs, agree that Chitonous Plating is too good. Maybe un-nerf the marauder? The Marauder didn't even need a nerf. That would help.

@Parasitic Bomb - Viper might be the most OP unit in the entire game. It has energy, but you can recharge it with minerals. It can snipe high-value targets from insane range. It has a spell that prevents Terran from attacking (lolreally?). It has a spell that guarantees they auto-win a mass air battle. Remove it's ability to recharge energy, or at least make the recharge ability leach vespene gas from an extractor.

RE: Liberators and Disruptors - Two points here.
(1) Please move the Liberator range upgrade to the fusion core. This +4 range buff is at the very end of Terran's tech tree. We went from a Liberator with a small attack radius but a large range, to a Liberator with a small attack radius, a small range, that requires a fusion core then a tech lab then an expensive research! Ha. Come one. Move the upgrade to the fusion core. Does anyone disagree with this? Additionally, since we're talking ultra late-game tech for this upgrade, have it give a minor buff to the transform time in and out of Defender Mode. We need this.

(2) Disruptors - I don't know. I literally don't know. But we (Terrans) need something here. They're too good and permanently prevent a proper engagement. It's possible that fixing Liberator range helps with this interaction, but right now the interaction is bad.
[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
bObA
Profile Joined May 2012
France300 Posts
December 17 2015 16:56 GMT
#188
On December 18 2015 01:24 TimeSpiral wrote:
@Maps - I agree that the maps aren't horrible. We rarely veto maps--because, why?--but last time around we did veto Bridgehead because that map was epic in how bad it was. Frankly, I think one of the biggest issues is the sheer size of these maps. They just seem to favor Zerg is such a big way. Maps where a third base is impossible for Terran need to be smaller or we'll never defeat Zerg, lol. Come on, guys.

@Ultralisks - I think literally almost every players, even Zergs, agree that Chitonous Plating is too good. Maybe un-nerf the marauder? The Marauder didn't even need a nerf. That would help.

@Parasitic Bomb - Viper might be the most OP unit in the entire game. It has energy, but you can recharge it with minerals. It can snipe high-value targets from insane range. It has a spell that prevents Terran from attacking (lolreally?). It has a spell that guarantees they auto-win a mass air battle. Remove it's ability to recharge energy, or at least make the recharge ability leach vespene gas from an extractor.

RE: Liberators and Disruptors - Two points here.
(1) Please move the Liberator range upgrade to the fusion core. This +4 range buff is at the very end of Terran's tech tree. We went from a Liberator with a small attack radius but a large range, to a Liberator with a small attack radius, a small range, that requires a fusion core then a tech lab then an expensive research! Ha. Come one. Move the upgrade to the fusion core. Does anyone disagree with this? Additionally, since we're talking ultra late-game tech for this upgrade, have it give a minor buff to the transform time in and out of Defender Mode. We need this.

(2) Disruptors - I don't know. I literally don't know. But we (Terrans) need something here. They're too good and permanently prevent a proper engagement. It's possible that fixing Liberator range helps with this interaction, but right now the interaction is bad.


Very good analysis.

regarding marauders I would be agree since I also saw some games of Heromarine where blink stalker collossi killed all bio units/liberators.
Marauders suck now.
That would help against protoss, against zergs without touching toss and zerg.

For parasitic bomb that needs a nerf because that s really impossible to play air vs zerg this ability is so strong.
All players are saying that but they haven't done anything yet which I do not understand


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