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emc
United States3088 Posts
the only change that should go live ASAP is photon overcharge everything else should stay as is imo. parasitic bomb too strong? split your air units, use feedback, snipe or vikings... ravager time increase is fine imo, 9 seconds is really fast but 25/75/1 is a lot of early resources that you can't use for mutas or upgrades. i'd rather nerfs/buffs happen once we see the koreans play | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
It sounds like there may be a lot of confusion here. We completely agree with those of you saying that Ultralisks weren’t underpowered in Heart of the Swarm. However, the goal of this change was to have Terran play be more interesting in the later stages of the game rather than Marine/Marauder/Medivacs being the answer for near all threats Zerg can bring out. We believe this is very important and will make the matchup a lot more exciting compared to how it’s been in the past. This is the exact same 'logic' used to justify the queen range buff in WOL and the widow mine nerf in HotS. When will these people learn? What am I saying? I must be an idiot. Let's test buffing DT speed to be 4.72 since Protoss lacks harassment capabilities. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
They want us to have to make *something else* to kill them. The problem is nothing fucking kills them. They have 8 armor JFC what are we supposed to do about them? | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On December 12 2015 04:08 Big J wrote: @Maps: Cool, matches my thoughts somewhat. Though I wouldn't mind if you would actually patch a map sometimes. @Ultralisks: The problem is the double nerf/buff here. The split marauder attack would have already made Ultralisks more popular in HotS. 1 more armor for them would have already been very strong against marines in HotS. 2 more armor + the split marauder attack is just too much in my opinion. I would like to see the ultralisk upgrade go down to +3 armor as soon as possible. If Terrans really figure out ways to deal with them consistently, so that ultralisks become too weak in Legacy, you can always rebuff them to +4 or take other actions. @Parasitic Bomb: Fully agree that this ability is very strong and we only don't see it that often because people just don't go air against zerg to begin with. I think an interesting tweak would be to delay the effect by a few seconds after it hit, or start the damage off lower and increase it after a few seconds. This would work well with the ability to split the affected units away from others. Maybe that's not enough but it would be interesting and increase counterplay against the ability. @Balance Changes: Pylon Overcharge, good suggestion. Disruptor, don't know since I don't play PvP. Thor AA increase: I believe a moderate increase is the way too go. The Thor is a very strong unit in direct combat and one really has to look out that this unit doesn't become a counter to too many things with a bit of support. Armored Capital Ships like Broodlords, Battlecruisers and Carriers/Tempests have been one of the main counters to it so far. I don't think this should be turned upside down. Ravager morph, agree completely. More tension when morphing them and a slight extra delay on rushes does seem like a fitting patch. Lurker morph, I don't really see the issue. The unit is strong ZvZ and ZvP eventually, but already takes a long time to get out. I really think the unit is fine at the moment with the disruptor and viper being good counters against it and I don't think any patch to this unit is necessary at the moment. These are pretty good suggestions and I mostly agree with them. Their design for ultralisks exposes much of what is wrong in SC2's lategame. In order to reduce the ubiquity of MMM compositions, they want ultralisks to hard counter MMM to force the terran to build the hard counter to ultralisks. Hard counters are one of the things that this game has done wrong since the beginning. I miss the stable late games of BW where the compositions are pretty much set and the game ends up revolving around micro and positioning, not transitioning repeatedly from rock to paper to scissors then back to rock. There are way too many instances in SC2 of players killing their own units to free up supply because their opponent has hard counters for their units and they need to build the hard counter to their opponents' units. Having to kill your own units to switch compositions is one of the dumbest mechanics in videogame history. Hard counters need to go away. | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On December 12 2015 06:13 DinoMight wrote: I understand the LOGIC for the Ultra buff. They want us to have to make *something else* to kill them. The problem is nothing fucking kills them. They have 8 armor JFC what are we supposed to do about them? Perhaps I should have said 'motive' instead? Back in WOL they claimed TvZ was balanced and the idea behind the queen buff was to make the match-up more diverse. But it was a straight up Zerg buff. Enter BL-Infestor. In HotS they claimed TvZ was balanced and the stated reason for the mine nerf was to promote diversity in the match-up by 'encouraging' Terran players to make tanks. Instead we have games of Bio-mine replaced with Bio. A straight nerf to Terran. They just did it again. It's mind-blowing. If something is balanced, making it better/worse unbalances it. These people hurt my brain. It's like listening to a politician/corporate PR rep every time they say anything. EDIT: @RaFox17: A) Your is a post about as low quality as 'first' posts. B) Considering it is relevant to the OP, it's perfectly legitimate to bring up. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On December 12 2015 06:20 Bohemond wrote: Perhaps I should have said 'motive' instead? Back in WOL they claimed TvZ was balanced and the idea behind the queen buff was to make the match-up more diverse. But it was a straight up Zerg buff. Enter BL-Infestor. In HotS they claimed TvZ was balanced and the stated reason for the mine nerf was to promote diversity in the match-up by 'encouraging' Terran players to make tanks. Instead we have games of Bio-mine replaced with Bio. A straight nerf to Terran. They just did it again. It's mind-blowing. If something is balanced, making it better/worse unbalances it. These people hurt my brain. It's like listening to a politician/corporate PR rep every time they say anything. Can we please stop bitching about the fucking queen buff?!?!? | ||
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Topin
Peru10038 Posts
On December 12 2015 06:21 RaFox17 wrote: Can we please stop bitching about the fucking queen buff?!?!? some wounds never heal | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On December 12 2015 06:21 RaFox17 wrote: Can we please stop bitching about the fucking queen buff?!?!? Worst change ever. The only good thing that ever came form that is that voidrays not longer shit on zerg. | ||
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WhaleOFaTALE1
47 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 12 2015 05:43 DinoMight wrote: Its *HOTS counters :p Also Templar and Ghosts are each others' counters and they both counter each other. Yeah, I understand that. But he uses language to make it sound ridiculous by explicitely not calling them "HotS counters" or something of that kind. With the outcome that the statement itself becomes ridiculous.  On December 12 2015 06:20 Bohemond wrote: Perhaps I should have said 'motive' instead? Back in WOL they claimed TvZ was balanced and the idea behind the queen buff was to make the match-up more diverse. But it was a straight up Zerg buff. Enter BL-Infestor. In HotS they claimed TvZ was balanced and the stated reason for the mine nerf was to promote diversity in the match-up by 'encouraging' Terran players to make tanks. Instead we have games of Bio-mine replaced with Bio. A straight nerf to Terran. They just did it again. It's mind-blowing. If something is balanced, making it better/worse unbalances it. These people hurt my brain. It's like listening to a politician/corporate PR rep every time they say anything. EDIT: @RaFox17: A) Your is a post about as low quality as 'first' posts. B) Considering it is relevant to the OP, it's perfectly legitimate to bring up. That's just not true. The official statement read: Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.
Nowhere did blizzard make the claim that professional TvZ was balanced at that time. But yeah, at this point fighting against the 100.000 myths "why blizzard did something" is becoming tedious. Everyone is just making up claims and they make full rounds in the community until you are the stupid one when you point them out. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
And blizz update on 8 armor ultra/para bomb/ravager - "we think it could be possibly maybe a problem that we might solve possibly next update to see we'll wait and possibly change something upon inspection of possibly finding a chance of it maybe being too strong probably." No word on invincible bullshit nydus worm being in this game still too. k p.s. what exactly is Terran supposed to make versus the current Zerg imba stuff late game? You just end up massing liberators 99% of your games which is utterly roflstomped by parasitic noskill bomb. You can't say Terran should make other units when 99% of those units are countered by para bomb and 8 armor ultras. Why is para bomb even in this game? It's a seeker missile on steroids man...like vikings were used before to counter vipers...and kill them. But now that you can just get parasitic bomb it leads to more turtle stalemate BS because once hive/vipers hit you can NEVER engage Zerg army ever because he'll instagib the units that are supposed to counter the viper.... Like it's just braindead to me why you would give the viper an ability that counters it's own counter. It would be like giving the marine a new splash damage ability that makes marines own banelings....like what the hell? That would be terrible because units that are meant to counter the marine in that case (banelings) wouldn't work and of course the game would be broken. That's currently what parasitic bomb is - it makes it so the opponent does not even have an option to counter it once it hits the field. Vikings are utterly useless. The other thing that really bothers me is how Blizzard dev team doesn't understand what the word iteration means. They should be patching constantly and tweaking and changing based off of feedback but they ignore 99% of community feedback or it feels like that. Like how the hell do you honestly justify nerfing and buffing the pylon cannon in one patch? That's not iteration - that's just doing random shit and changing multiple variables at the same time on one thing. Like fuck. Make it 50 energy, dont increase the duration at the same time in the same patch. If the thing completely sucks balls after it's 50 energy, then consider another adjustment to it - THAT IS WHAT ITERATION IS. You don't just finally fix a problem with a change but then do a change in the other direction at the same time, that is non sense. Just hire me already blizzard please i'll have this game balanced within 3 months and with more strategic diversity than Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory has chocolate holy fuck. Maybe when 99% of the ladder and this game are all Zerg blizzard will do something, for now as a player i am really frustrated i don't know about anyone else. Maybe it's just because Terran currently has the short end of the stick extremely hard and blizzard is trying to literally force the "spam bio units" meta upon every single player...it's really frustrating playing SC2 right now. User was warned for this post | ||
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WhaleOFaTALE1
47 Posts
On December 12 2015 06:13 DinoMight wrote: I understand the LOGIC for the Ultra buff. They want us to have to make *something else* to kill them. The problem is nothing fucking kills them. They have 8 armor JFC what are we supposed to do about them? Tge ipgrade is +4...so 7 armor | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
That's just not true. The official statement read: Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. Nowhere did blizzard make the claim that professional TvZ was balanced at that time. My mistake. I remember a lot of casters at the time saying the match-up was stale, and recalled that being Blizzard's view as well. As for why Blizzard does things, that's quite the mystery. Since much of what they do doesn't seem to make sense or jibe with what they say. They have a base armor of 1, so 1+3+4=8. | ||
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WhaleOFaTALE1
47 Posts
On December 12 2015 06:16 andrewlt wrote: These are pretty good suggestions and I mostly agree with them. Their design for ultralisks exposes much of what is wrong in SC2's lategame. In order to reduce the ubiquity of MMM compositions, they want ultralisks to hard counter MMM to force the terran to build the hard counter to ultralisks. Hard counters are one of the things that this game has done wrong since the beginning. I miss the stable late games of BW where the compositions are pretty much set and the game ends up revolving around micro and positioning, not transitioning repeatedly from rock to paper to scissors then back to rock. There are way too many instances in SC2 of players killing their own units to free up supply because their opponent has hard counters for their units and they need to build the hard counter to their opponents' units. Having to kill your own units to switch compositions is one of the dumbest mechanics in videogame history. Hard counters need to go away. Well said!!!! I didnt play BW but that late game sound paradise compared to hard counter bs | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 12 2015 06:47 Bohemond wrote: My mistake. I remember a lot of casters at the time saying the match-up was stale, and recalled that being Blizzard's view as well. As for why Blizzard does things, that's quite the mystery. Since much of what they do doesn't seem to make sense or jibe with what they say. They have a base armor of 1, so 1+3+4=8. Ah ok, then you are probably mixing it up with the widow mine patch when a lot of people said the matchup was stale (MC wrote a long article about it), which had a similar, but less devastating effect on ZvT. There they actually argued that nerfing the mine and buffing the tank/mech upgrades would induce more diversity and Terrans would hopefully mix tanks and mines. Which didn't happen, but it was the start to mech viability in TvZ (together with the banshee buff and the hellbat rebuff) so they kind of got this right, even though Terran was a bit too weak for some time then. | ||
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WhaleOFaTALE1
47 Posts
On December 12 2015 06:46 avilo wrote: No word on mech viability, cyclones, anything on tanks or the discussion in community about tanks sucking? And blizz update on 8 armor ultra/para bomb/ravager - "we think it could be possibly maybe a problem that we might solve possibly next update to see we'll wait and possibly change something upon inspection of possibly finding a chance of it maybe being too strong probably." No word on invincible bullshit nydus worm being in this game still too. k p.s. what exactly is Terran supposed to make versus the current Zerg imba stuff late game? You just end up massing liberators 99% of your games which is utterly roflstomped by parasitic noskill bomb. You can't say Terran should make other units when 99% of those units are countered by para bomb and 8 armor ultras. Why is para bomb even in this game? It's a seeker missile on steroids man...like vikings were used before to counter vipers...and kill them. But now that you can just get parasitic bomb it leads to more turtle stalemate BS because once hive/vipers hit you can NEVER engage Zerg army ever because he'll instagib the units that are supposed to counter the viper.... Like it's just braindead to me why you would give the viper an ability that counters it's own counter. It would be like giving the marine a new splash damage ability that makes marines own banelings....like what the hell? That would be terrible because units that are meant to counter the marine in that case (banelings) wouldn't work and of course the game would be broken. That's currently what parasitic bomb is - it makes it so the opponent does not even have an option to counter it once it hits the field. Vikings are utterly useless. Maybe when 99% of the ladder and this game are all Zerg blizzard will do something, for now as a player i am really frustrated i don't know about anyone else. Maybe it's just because Terran currently has the short end of the stick extremely hard and blizzard is trying to literally force the "spam bio units" meta upon every single player...it's really frustrating playing SC2 right now. Hate to break it to you but pure mech will never be as strong ss hots due to economy changes. Mech needs to take more bases and more quickly to get same army it did in HOTS | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On December 12 2015 06:56 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote: Hate to break it to you but pure mech will never be as strong ss hots due to economy changes. Mech needs to take more bases and more quickly to get same army it did in HOTS Mech can be fucking great and in a good place if they just buff the siege tank to trade well just like the liberator currently does. If mech had tanks that actually were scary you'd be able to attack more often and trade them for enemy units, instead of being forced to turtle in your own base till you have 10+ tanks. The economy changes don't matter so much if they make the units stop sucking balls. Tanks suck right now for what they do and for the multitude of new counters in LOTV. Same goes for cyclones - cyclones actually are not even priced right atm by stats - marauder = 100/25/2 cyclone = 150/150/3 but marauder has 125 health cyclone has 120 health like what the fuck this is balance design 101 i don't even know how you can mess up a unit that badly. The fact blizzard just completely ignores mech over and over in their updates is really depressing to a lot of the community that want more than just bio to be a strategy in SC2. One of their devs is really biased and tries in all his might to make only bio play viable because he perceives it as "action and excitement" not understanding the only reason why mech is turtly is because he continuously nerfs mech unit after mech unit after mech unit to the point the only way to play a different strategy than bio is to sit in your base for 30 min till 200/200. | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On December 12 2015 06:56 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote: Hate to break it to you but pure mech will never be as strong ss hots due to economy changes. Mech needs to take more bases and more quickly to get same army it did in HOTS But the same army it used it HotS wouldn't work anyhow. So who cares about the 'economy changes' (the econ change is really just a mandated change to maps, but whatever) in this case? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 12 2015 06:16 andrewlt wrote: These are pretty good suggestions and I mostly agree with them. Their design for ultralisks exposes much of what is wrong in SC2's lategame. In order to reduce the ubiquity of MMM compositions, they want ultralisks to hard counter MMM to force the terran to build the hard counter to ultralisks. Hard counters are one of the things that this game has done wrong since the beginning. I miss the stable late games of BW where the compositions are pretty much set and the game ends up revolving around micro and positioning, not transitioning repeatedly from rock to paper to scissors then back to rock. There are way too many instances in SC2 of players killing their own units to free up supply because their opponent has hard counters for their units and they need to build the hard counter to their opponents' units. Having to kill your own units to switch compositions is one of the dumbest mechanics in videogame history. Hard counters need to go away. Yeah, there are areas where they really should look into hardcounters a little bit. In this specific scenario I also think it is kind of blatantly obvious that the current ultralisk is too strong vs bio, but if we give them benefit of the doubt, it's probably a fine line they need to walk here. The strategic development within a game gets always driven by something countering another thing, hence someone has to change what they are doing. And given that people know about the other ones capabilities, hardcounter units often become softcounters because people will take them into account to begin with. In case of the ultralisk I think it just renders bio too useless. Even Terrans that play with tanks and liberators in the midgame and then additionally add ghosts when ultras pop have trouble defending against them, much more they can hardly move out against them ever. There should be a certain level of preparedness that gives you an advantage if the opponent still transitions into what you try to counteract, which at the moment isn't really there with ultras. On the flipside, that preparedness should be more than what it was in HotS, i.e. having a few barracks with techlabs so you can produce marauders and having a few medivacs, so you can counterdrop and stall for a minute to if you really need to. That really doesn't take preparation to begin with. | ||
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