EPTThis "dark influence" bullshit is on both Zergs and Orcs and no denying will help.
And yes, it IS copypaste.
Legacy of the Void Ending cutscene - Page 4
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
This "dark influence" bullshit is on both Zergs and Orcs and no denying will help. And yes, it IS copypaste. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
This is exactly what happened to the Orcs. Khala is something that connected the Protoss after the Aeon of Strife. Their life and culture is based on it. Losing Khala is like losing immortality, but this is not about Khala = Immortality, but rather "spiritual and religious race has to sacrifice part of its identity to fight evil". Blizzard failed to portray how losing the connection to Khala should be traumatizing, and I have seen enough posts here and on Blizzards forum to conclude that people wanted to see Protoss being traumatized by the procedure Tychus and Illidian is a bit farfetched, I agree  Kerrigan and Arthas is both about main character permanently losing his/her humanity (by using unholy/questionable means) in order to gain power so they can achieve their goals of revenge. So Kerrigan infests herself again by taking a magical bath and Arthas begins his corruption by searching for and then wielding the magical Frostmourne. It isn't that I'm looking for unoriginality of the story, but Blizzard is reusing the same tropes with some different colors. Prophecies, gods and magic shouldn't exist in Starcraft universe. It's like after playing through Mass Effect 1&2 learn that Reapers are inter dimensional gods, travel between universes, seeding them with magic and reaping whole species to later produce angels out of them. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 19 2015 07:01 cheekymonkey wrote: Some of those are not really that similar. First off, Zergs are nothing like orcs. More like animal, they are not good nor evil "at heart". They just simply follow command and if not, they just fight amongst themselves. Much more like the undead, if you ask me. The Khala of the Protoss is their link to Amon, which he used to take control of them. Some believe it to be a blessing, but in reality it is a curse. This is nothing like sacrifice of the night elves. A more similar parallell is the demon blood of Mannaroth creating a link between him and the orcs. Then the other orcs have to fight the crazed orcs and at last free Grommash from the curse. Similar to how protoss fighting crazed protoss, and zeratul severing the cords of Artanis. The link between Tychus and Illidan is very far fetched. Practically the only similarity is that they were both imprisoned. Kerrigan and Mengsk were initially on the same side, and Mengsk betrayed her. After she turned zerg she seeked revenge and finally took it. Arthas and Mal'ganis were enemies, and after he turned "undead" he took his revenge, though just because the lich king said so because he had reasons for it. Some similarities, but not really. It seems to me that you are seeing similarities where there are none just to validate your opinion on the unoriginality of the story. In my opnion the only annoying similarity between the stories between the warcraft universe and the sc universe is that the different races always have to ally themselves against a common enemy in the end, initiated by a prophet. Other than that the stories are pretty much different from each other. Some similarities of course but no copypaste. There were good guys in one side, there were bad guys in the other side, some conflict happened in the middle--then one of them won. For all intents and purposes the EXACT same story | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
On December 19 2015 07:59 Nazara wrote: Yes they are. "I have come to tell you of this creature's... courage." and all that followed is nothing more then a humanization of Zerg, and portraying them as "no, they are not evil, they were made to do evil stuff, but they just want to be left alone". This is exactly what happened to the Orcs. It's a kind of naive image of the Zerg as being "evil". Why would they be evil? If anything, they should want to act in their best self-interest, no matter the consequences for others. That is, in the best self-interest of the overmind, and later, Kerrigan. The conscious leaders: the overmind, the cerebrates, and later Kerrigan and the queens are ultimately the only will of the zerg. It's a hivemind in that sense. The courage of the overmind was not in the form of compassion or mercy, but self-sacrifice. The overmind always knew what Amon wanted, and he foresaw that it lead to the destruction of Zerg. Thus he purposely created kerrigan to free the zerg from extinction, at the cost of his life. This was his intent. Not much of an anthropomorphic figure, if you ask me. The zerg (the overmind) did not exactly want to be left alone, the whole idea of Zerg is a continuous assimilation of other races and species. How this is supposed to be a copy paste of the wc3 story of orcs is beyond me. On December 19 2015 07:59 Nazara wrote:Khala is something that connected the Protoss after the Aeon of Strife. Their life and culture is based on it. Losing Khala is like losing immortality, but this is not about Khala = Immortality, but rather "spiritual and religious race has to sacrifice part of its identity to fight evil". Blizzard failed to portray how losing the connection to Khala should be traumatizing, and I have seen enough posts here and on Blizzards forum to conclude that people wanted to see Protoss being traumatized by the procedure Well, the whole race of dark templars ritually severed their cords, so it shouldn't be that traumatizing. I can see how an individual with severed cords could be traumatized living in a community of protoss retaining their link the khala. But if a whole society could form without the khala, then just how crippling could it be? | ||
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
How this is supposed to be a copy paste of the wc3 story of orcs is beyond me. Simple. Orcs W1, W2 - chaotic evil; Orcs W3 - savage, but not evil (corrupted) Zergs SC1 - plain straigh omnicidal galactic pests; Zerg SC2 - wild, but not omnicidal (corrupted) Manaroth evil influence = orcs corrupted. Amon evil influence = zergs corrupted. How this ISN'T supposed to be copypaste of orcs is beyond me. You can find differences in social structure, physiology, overal appearance and colour of their nails. And it doesnt metter becouse its THE SAME FUCKING STORY. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
Let me rewrite this: xxxx is seen as a homicidal, killer species set on destroying and killing everything throughout the game's story. They cannot be reasoned with. They just seem to be hungry for blood and nothing else. Later, we learn that xxxx is not really that bad. It's just just that they were being controlled/influenced by the evil zzzz, and without the evil zzzz, the xxxx just wants to live in peace away from other races. I don't know how you are unable to see similarities. But just put Orc or Zerg instead of xxxx and see what happens. With the Protoss/NElves again, you miss the point. It is not about how close the Khala is to Immortality, or how similar they are. So let me rewrite this: xxxx is a race of spiritual beings, but great warriors at the same time. To defeat the great evil, they sacrifice this part that was a defining feature of the xxxx. Put Protoss or Night Elves in there and it will work both ways. It is not about how close one thing is to another. It is about the tropes and recycling themes. You are trying to argue that Pocahontas and Avatar are not similar. But they use same tropes and themes, the same way SC2 uses same recurring themes as Warcraft 3. http://screenplayhowto.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Avatar-Pocahontas-Comparison.jpg | ||
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cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
On December 19 2015 18:56 hitthat wrote: Simple. Orcs W1, W2 - chaotic evil; Orcs W3 - savage, but not evil (corrupted) Zergs SC1 - plain straigh omnicidal galactic pests; Zerg SC2 - wild, but not omnicidal (corrupted) Manaroth evil influence = orcs corrupted. Amon evil influence = zergs corrupted. How this ISN'T supposed to be copypaste of orcs is beyond me. So the similarity is that they are corrupted. I see, and this makes it a copypaste? The orcs are not a hivemind. There is nothing about orcs that even resemble the way zerg works. The orcs, individuals with free will, chose to give themselves up to the demons for power. The zerg are subconscious beings, for which a controller was created first by Amon (the overmind), and later by the overmind himself (kerrigan). They did not give themselves up for power. You are just pointing to one superficial similarity in that they are both "corrupted" somehow. Doesn't make it a copypaste. | ||
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EatingBomber
1017 Posts
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
On December 19 2015 23:12 cheekymonkey wrote: You are just pointing to one superficial similarity in that they are both "corrupted" somehow. Doesn't make it a copypaste. In the same sense that "Magnifficent seven" isn't in its core americanized copypaste of "Seven Samurai". I can find some differences and say "its not the same old story at all", and yet it still remained not true. Nazara already explained you what makes Zergs orcish. Its about lazy recycling of all the motives over and over again by Blizzard. And in its central story-wise core, Zergs came the same path as Orcs. I dont think saying they are now "space orcs" is unjustified. Actually, I am convinced its otherwise. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 20 2015 00:35 hitthat wrote: In the same sense that "Magnifficent seven" isn't in its core americanized copypaste of "Seven Samurai". I can find some differences and say "its not the same old story at all", and yet it still remained not true. Nazara already explained you what makes Zergs orcish. Its about lazy recycling of all the motives over and over again by Blizzard. And in its central story-wise core, Zergs came the same path as Orcs. I dont think saying they are now "space orcs" is unjustified. Actually, I am convinced its otherwise. There is literally zero similarities between orcs and Zerg--none. Protoss and Warcraft are VERY similar both in lore and design. Protoss even start with 2 supply footman. The stories are so dissimilar so I don't even know what you're attempting to say about samurais. The only thing the same is that they are both bad guys. That's it. Even the corrupted storyline is not very accurate since Zerg aren't corrupted either--that's the Protoss. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
On December 20 2015 01:05 Thieving Magpie wrote: The only thing the same is that they are both bad guys. That's it. Even the corrupted storyline is not very accurate since Zerg aren't corrupted either--that's the Protoss. After that line - I gave up... We seriously played completelly different game. Not even seeing differences between "corrupted" and "mind-controled" | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 20 2015 01:29 hitthat wrote: After that line - I gave up... We seriously played completelly different game. Not even seeing differences between "corrupted" and "mind-controled" Protoss was literally the race that was being corrupted by Amon. Legacy of the Void LITERALY has that as it's main story. The Zerg is more similar to the Scourge, more similar to the Undead. So you could say that Zerg are Undead in space, but since Zerg came before the undead you really have to say that undead is Zerg in fantasy. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
You are argue against the very fact that Zergs were altered (read: corrupted!) and their urge for destruction " was forced upon them". It is directly said they WERE corrupted. As i said in Protoss campaign is mind-controlling puppet mastering. And no, undead are not alike of Zergs in that sense, since they were never altered in the first place. Their orriginal purpose and only reason they exist was creation of (un)living weapon over anything all. Blight and creep is only gameplay simmilarity, not lore-wise. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
Sc1 and wc1-2: Zerg/orc are homicidal and just want to kill everyone because of their own reasons. Sc2 and wc3: Zerg were corrupted by amon (kill protoss), orc were corrupted by mannoroth/burning legion (kill everyone), they were forced to do wrong things. Without corruption Zerg/orc just want to live their life and defend themselves. Lichking/overmind is a prisoner forced to work for burning legion/amon grom fights mannoroth to free orc / Kerrigan fights amon to free Zerg and everyone else. lichking betrays burning legion and merges with arthas who becomes the leader of the undead / overmind resists amon and creates Kerrigan who becomes the leader of the swarm. And again, this is not as much about how orc and Zerg are similar - it is about how both were handled and changed from their original background. You can argue that Zerg and orc are not the same, but the same thing happened to them and both undead/orc storylines have striking resemblance to what happens with the zerg. They follow the same theme. Same motif. Of course characters are different, but the overarching story/retcon have same principle - domestication of the Zerg. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 20 2015 01:54 hitthat wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRk_ZBQ0C2E You are argue against the very fact that Zergs were altered (read: corrupted!) and their urge for destruction " was forced upon them". It is directly said they WERE corrupted. As i said in Protoss campaign is mind-controlling puppet mastering. And no, undead are not alike of Zergs in that sense, since they were never altered in the first place. Their orriginal purpose and only reason they exist was creation of (un)living weapon over anything all. Blight and creep is only gameplay simmilarity, not lore-wise. Did you play LOTV? The xel Naga who powered up Kerrigan literally said that was a lie to get Zeartul to trust him. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
Seriously, I dont know if i even should discuss that more, if the guy even misunderstood that "Tassadar" lied only in that part who he really is, not about what Zergs were. + Show Spoiler + Before you say it was not really a Tassadar, please, look at those quotation marks, ok?  | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
We just didn't see what the Zerg were like before being altered until HotS. Also they were still a brutal warlike race in primal form, just less organized. The Swarm is also still the Swarm and can't be redeemed or returned to their "free" past... They can be free of Amon and have a new leader (new Kerrigan and now Zagara) but can only evolve forwards and will stay a hivemind race built for war. If they destroyed the Swarm and had all Zerg in the future be Primal Zerg I'd be pretty upset about that, but as is they might be closer at the end of it all to the original impressions we got of the Zerg in SC1 than they have been in a long time. In contrast to the Orcs who were I guess nice guys originally and have returned to that from their corruption. To me that's a big difference, and I'm really glad they didn't do this with the Zerg as that would ruin everything. As is I'm not too upset. With the Zerg and in general I felt, despite all it's flaws within its own story, the SC2 campaigns have set up the story in the Koprulu sector to turn back to what everyone's been asking for - smaller scale, less fantasy kind of stuff. We've lost some beloved characters in a dumb story along the way perhaps but the races are still intact, even with the loss of the Khala. If anything having the Tal'darim means we have two separate Protoss factions again as opposed to them all being under one banner after the loss of Aiur, so we can get some cool Protoss politics again. Zagara really needs some character development though. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
I would rather see a reboot with a new writer. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 20 2015 06:17 Nazara wrote: I don't think that sc2 has set up any logical kind of story for sc3. Anything that happens will always be countered by "why Kerrigan didn't stop this or that" or rather "where is space angel gone?", and if it turns out that Kerrigan dies somehow, that puts the whole campaign of sc2 into jeopardy by questioning "if xel Naga are so easily killed, why so much fuss about amon? Just drop the nuke/purify the planet". I would rather see a reboot with a new writer. I would love for SC3 to be almost tiny in scale like it was in Vanilla (pre BW) Where it was two local politics issues (Terran rebellion and Protoss stewardship responsibility) in relation to a common problem (Zerg) and how both protagonists (raynor and Tasadar) navigated their local problem, before combining forces to solve a larger problem. None of this interstellar space gods, prophecy, "before stars were born" bullshit. | ||
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