EPTLilbow and his Approach to WCS Finals 2015 - Page 29
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Sakat
Croatia1599 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12524 Posts
On November 04 2015 04:54 Sakat wrote: I do agree that the six pool was, apart from being a winnig strategy, somewhat indicative of what Life thought of Lilbow. His actions after the game say even more. He just took his earphones off and got up like he just finished a ladder section on his smurf. The point remains. He studied Lilbow, he found a weakness thet can be exploited, and he won by doing just that. Lilbow didn't even bother to scout for ling aggression, something Life is famous for. He didn't prepare, he didn't practice, and he bragged about it later. Thanks for your honesty. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16087 Posts
On November 04 2015 04:54 Sakat wrote: He just took his earphones off and got up like he just finished a ladder section on his smurf. . What else should he have done? | ||
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frazzle
United States468 Posts
On November 04 2015 04:49 ddayzy wrote: You still have no answeared, should we just conclude with you not having one and call it a day or do you actually want to produce a reason? Six pooling is a strategy, used by many pros in tournaments, sometimes because they think the oposition is stronger. In a tournament you want to reveale as little of your strategy as possible. When you correctly asses your oponent can't hold a six pool it is disrespectful to do one becuase? Toying with him and draging the match out just for the hell of it would be disrespectful. Correctly assesing your oponents skill and playign accordingly is not. Or are you saying it is disrespectful to correctly asses Lilbow skill level? A manner hatch is a strategy too for that matter. It is playing mind games with your opponent and you can maybe get a gg when perhaps one isn't warranted. I have given plenty of reasons why 6 pooling is disrespectful in this context. You however seem confused about what I am arguing. I never said 6 pool isn't a strategy. Planetary Fortress rush in the main is a strategy too. I never said Life shouldn't have 6 pooled. I found it hilarious. By choosing to 6 pool, he was doing more than picking a winning strategy. He was saying GTFO. You apparently have seen lots of 6 pools in high level tournaments lately. I guess I missed those, because it has years since I can remember one. | ||
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Sakat
Croatia1599 Posts
I have no problem with stating that. But, It was a winning strategy, it was also a way to hide his actual builds in case he would beat Inno. His actions were disrespectful. Tha six pool itself was a thought out move. | ||
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Sakat
Croatia1599 Posts
Well, If I was in his position I would at least shake his hand. | ||
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frazzle
United States468 Posts
On November 04 2015 05:03 Sakat wrote: Well, If I was in his position I would at least shake his hand. TBF, I didn't see any handshakes after any of the games. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On November 04 2015 05:04 frazzle wrote: TBF, I didn't see any handshakes after any of the games. Handshaking seems to be a mixed bag in SC2. I recall Hero cussing out Taeja when he went to shake his hand at a dreamhack once... and they were teammates. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16087 Posts
On November 04 2015 05:00 frazzle wrote: A manner hatch is a strategy too for that matter. It is playing mind games with your opponent and you can maybe get a gg when perhaps one isn't warranted. I have given plenty of reasons why 6 pooling is disrespectful in this context. You however seem confused about what I am arguing. I never said 6 pool isn't a strategy. Planetary Fortress rush in the main is a strategy too. I never said Life shouldn't have 6 pooled. I found it hilarious. By choosing to 6 pool, he was doing more than picking a winning strategy. He was saying GTFO. You apparently have seen lots of 6 pools in high level tournaments lately. I guess I missed those, because it has years since I can remember one. Even if he wanted to say that did Lilbow deserve anything better? after Life saw he can't even defend basic allins should he think "ah he's really bad, now let him play a long macro game so he doesn't look that bad". If you fail so badly at defending basic allins you deserve a GTFO (although i still don't understand how a build order can be considered BM) | ||
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Sakat
Croatia1599 Posts
On November 04 2015 05:04 frazzle wrote: TBF, I didn't see any handshakes after any of the games. Really? I didn't pay much attention, but how Life did it really struck me as rude. | ||
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Lycangrope
United States110 Posts
On November 04 2015 04:02 ZAiNs wrote: It's pretty pathetic that a 'community figure' would make a thread like this and doesn't even realise that the main reason Lilbow exclusively practiced LotV was because he COULDN'T practice HotS... You haven't followed the dialogue or you'd know TLO and other foreign pros offered him help. | ||
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Muffloe
Sweden6061 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
"Toying with him and dragging the match out just for the hell of it would be disrespectful." that much is right, in part. It's also part of how players work though. There are plenty who don't have the practice in order to end games when they have the opportunities to (apparent in bronze to pro level of play). i don't understand the attachment to arguing over this word though. you know an argument is going sour when you're restating the same shit at the each other over and over again. it's respectful it's disrespectul it was part of the winning process and is therefore respectful it's disrespectul, are you kidding me? the list goes on, please. | ||
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frazzle
United States468 Posts
On November 04 2015 05:06 Charoisaur wrote: Even if he wanted to say that did Lilbow deserve anything better? after Life saw he can't even defend basic allins should he think "ah he's really bad, now let him play a long macro game so he doesn't look that bad". If you fail so badly at defending basic allins you deserve a GTFO (although i still don't understand how a build order can be considered BM) The best analogy I can think of is Babe Ruth's called shot. I know it is baseball and so Europeans might not get it. Life beat Lilbow down 2 games in a row, then came up to the plate and said exactly what he planned to do and then did it. I'm gonna 6 pool you now. Stop me. That is disrespect, but in an OK competitive way. If someone came up to the plate today and pointed to the bleachers, the pitcher would probably start throwing pitches at his head. (Edit: after thinking about it, the "Eephus pitch" is a better analogy. Here's a famous home run hitter being struck out by one. It was shamful for the batter to strike out, but the pitcher made a good call knowing this slugger probably wouldn't adapt. There definitely was a bit of a "OK big dummy, let's see if you can hit a slow lob" insult going on there, and the pitcher knew it. The batter smashed his helmet to pieces after this (not on the video though)) | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On November 04 2015 05:12 Muffloe wrote: Watched the post-game talk now, and wow did they butcher Lilbow. He deserved for rekt, but done is done. I almost think the rekt that was handed out by ictrl and TLO is enough punishment . I also re-watched the entire series, pre/post-game analysis and all that was presented during the stream. It's a little surreal how much foreshadowing was going on; ToD and Kaeleris pronouncing the beatdown as it was happening and everyone generally being apprehensive about the reactions to life's aggression. Even rotti broke down the games in what little time he had, in case nobody has played in those exact situations as protoss before. There were ways to hold it off, there were ways to scout, and there is the fact that Life himself alluded to it with his crazy amount of confidence. Certainly in hindsight, Lilbow scarcely makes those same mistakes again but as i've said much earlier in this thread, he can never have those moments back again. I mean it's something to dote on if you're in Lilbow's position, without a single doubt. Look forward to him being stronger, or crumbling, that's up to you. I recommend rewatching it to enjoy it from another angle. In this case, i already knew how it was going to happen, but to look for what exactly went wrong and to then read into expressions through the camera and through little game details, i feel you're understanding a little bit more when ToD and Kaeleris continue talking you through it. More weight to it. As a whole-in my opinion-there's a little bit of psychoticism to it, except in this case it's all a long droning line from start to finish where the strategies from Life (very accurately described by casters and analysts) kept devolving and getting funnier. If i am a player opposite of Life--calling up experiences on stage in other and maybe not so similar competitive experiences i've had in life--i'm simply so disappointed in myself after i think everything through. i can't re-do ever, and i overlooked more than just a few things. It's haunting. | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
No matter which side of the debate you are on, the recent WCS champion, a "professional player" did not practice for the Blizzcon after qualifying. No matter his reasons or lack of reasons, I hope it never happens again. With all the bad news coming right before Blizzcon, many in the community needed a feel good story. Not this. Let us all hope for a good kick off to LotV in the coming week. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 04 2015 05:02 Sakat wrote: I have no problem with stating that. But, It was a winning strategy, it was also a way to hide his actual builds in case he would beat Inno. His actions were disrespectful. Tha six pool itself was a thought out move. Life has been eliminating people from high-key tournaments with 6pools and similar builds since 2012. It's nothing new or particular to Lilbow. It wasn't planned-out disrespect intended to embarrass the opponent - he has only set out to actually make the opponent look bad a single time in a tournament setting (and I think he felt bad about it afterwards) In all cases but that one, Life doesn't care who the opponent is when he's playing. This was nothing special, unless you think he also disrespects Parting, Stats, Zest and herO. | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
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frazzle
United States468 Posts
On November 04 2015 07:29 Zealously wrote: Life has been eliminating people from high-key tournaments with 6pools and similar builds since 2012. It's nothing new or particular to Lilbow. It wasn't planned-out disrespect intended to embarrass the opponent - he has only set out to actually make the opponent look bad a single time in a tournament setting (and I think he felt bad about it afterwards) In all cases but that one, Life doesn't care who the opponent is when he's playing. Well, he did 6 pool Stats a couple weeks ago, so I stand corrected in saying it's been years since the last 6 pool. Nevertheless, 6 pooling is iconically bad at this point. No one really does it on modern maps. In the KungFu cup it came off as just a total surprise wtf build, in BlizzCon, given the previous 2 games, it came off as a snub and almost logically followed from those games. But I relent, maybe it isn't as much of an obvious insult as I had previously implied. And who was it Life did try to embarrass? Naniwa in IEM? | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 04 2015 07:47 frazzle wrote: Well, he did 6 pool Stats a couple weeks ago, so I stand corrected in saying it's been years since the last 6 pool. Nevertheless, 6 pooling is iconically bad at this point. No one really does it on modern maps. In the KungFu cup it came off as just a total surprise wtf build, in BlizzCon, given the previous 2 games, it came off as a snub and almost logically followed from those games. But I relent, maybe it isn't as much of an obvious insult as I had previously implied. And who was it Life did try to embarrass? Naniwa in IEM? It's grown to become increasingly uncommon in ZvP, granted, but it's still a tool in Life's toolbox that you need to take into consideration when facing him. It's hard to know which ling attack might be coming, of course, and players much better than Lilbow similarly struggle. It's just what Life does, really. And yes, as I understand he went into the IEM NY series with the explicit intent of making Naniwa look like a fool. It could just as well be the result of something else than a dislike for Naniwa, but he clowned about very intently. | ||
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