I'm quite upset about the way lilbow played and, perhaps, the way he prepared for the match...He said in the interview he's looking forward to Legacy of the Void and that he wants to be the best in it. I feel that is exactly the attitude foreigners always have...."I'm focusing on the future and I want to become the best some day", but if you want to become the best you have to be the best now and as soon as possible. I know it's hard to practice [HotS] because everyone is switching to Legacy of the Void, but he could have put in more effort.
- Dario "TLO" Wunsch after Lilbow's defeat in the 2015 WCS Finals.
Let's start with that last statement. I bet it was hard for Lilbow to practice on the ladder as players have started to migrate to Legacy of the Void. There are always custom games, though. I'll play devil's advocate for a second and assume Lilbow asked every foreign pro in the scene to help him. We should be livid that the top tier players in the community would leave him out to dry and not offer their hand to help him in his Round of 16 match against Life. Now let's strap on our logic pants for a minute - I find it hard to believe there were many pros who would have done such a thing, if any at all.
I 100% believe Lilbow played hard against Life, but I do not believe he tried. Trying involves your performance during AND leading up to the match at hand.
If Lilbow takes a victory or high placement at DreamHack, people are going to say "See! See! It paid off!" Unless Lilbow also cleans house in all of 2016 - not just WCS, but DH, IEM, and Gfinity, but in particular WCS Season 1 for 2016 - he didn't gain anything from shrugging off yesterday's match.
It's his choice.
It sure is. If he believed, 100%, this is what was right then so be it. That doesn't make him immune to criticism. He made a decision, he chose to share that decision publicly - he will be judged for good or bad.
But..but, the head start!
Every race, especially Protoss, has underwent heavy changes the last month and a half. The asymmetrical balance of StarCraft dictates that, in MOST cases these critical changes will require builds and unit compositions for ALL races to be changed every time a unit is changed for ONE race (assuming the unit changed is part of the XvX match up). There is the valid point of learning the economy and becoming familiar with how units work (i.e. controlling disruptors, especially the new one), but I see nothing that Lilbow could have gained from playing LotV full time pre-Blizzcon that he couldn't have acquired from maybe 1-2 hours of LotV a day while practicing for Life and then going HAM after Blizzcon. If he does well in season 1 and falls off in season 2, is everyone going to say #worth when thinking back to this moment?
Disrespect
The one thing Lilbow supporters and dissenters seem to all agree on is he shouldn't have openly stated how he approached Blizzcon. But let's make something clear for this section. This is about personal accountability in his actions and what they say of him and how he feels about WCS and his fans.
WCS
Blizzard and ESL employees - from the community managers to Carmac; from people editing videos of Lilbow to those making sure he's taken care of during the event. Every one of them was told "none of this mattered enough for me to prepare." This wasn't just Lilbow deciding to not respect his match, he was showing a lack of respect for the most prestigious event of the year. His chances of winning should have played no role in that.
Fans
I'll give Lilbow the benefit of the doubt and assume when he said people who didn't agree with him were cockroaches, he was just a tad angry. But in case he wasn't, perhaps we're dealing with something a little more than bad judgement. News flash, if a football player fucks up, their fans don't suddenly become any less "true fans" if they call them on it.
You, as a fan of Lilbow, have every right to be upset. People put their heart into supporting their favorite players, especially at an event like this. Does he owe you anything? Yes. He owes you enough decency to not go down 3:0 and then try to assuage his ego by blaming it (stupidly) on his lack of practice.
Final Thoughts
This is a big deal for many folks because Lilbow was our Foreign Hope. He left WCS S3 a Champion with a Champion's mentality. I talked to Dayshi a lot about Lilbow at Gfinity, and he said that Lilbow believed he could win Blizzcon and that he was gunning for a very high finish. What the fuck happened? That was on September 24th/25th. The WCS brackets were released October 6th. Did Lilbow see his opponent and think "Well, shit, never mind. I'll just go play Legacy." That's not how a champion approaches competition and that's not how a professional shows respect for his fans or his sport.
100% agree. This is why the foreign scene will always be a club of entitles players who in the face of defeat will cry for opportunities but in the face of victory or opportunity squander it. He spend a precious month of prep time to play Legacy when Legacy will be around for the forsee able future after release. Is his potential forseen profit in the initial stages of Legacy worth the complete smearing of the best opportunity a foreign player has had on the biggest stage in the world? No. The damage to his and his teams brand is far worse than the potential top 4 at a DH, inevitably losing to a Korean who has played maybe 3 weeks of Legacy.
The one thing Lilbow supporters and dissenters seem to all agree on is he shouldn't have openly stated how he approached Blizzcon. But let's make something clear for this section. This is about personal accountability in his actions and what they say of him and how he feels about WCS and his fans.
WCS
Blizzard and ESL employees - from the community managers to Carmac; from people editing videos of Lilbow to those making sure he's taken care of during the event. Every one of them was told "none of this mattered enough for me to prepare." This wasn't just Lilbow deciding to not respect his match, he was showing a lack of respect for the most prestigious event of the year. His chances of winning should have played no role in that.
This, so much. I mean, everyone probably _understands_ Lilbow, but I feel sorry for everyone working around him and his fans. I feel sorry for Blizzard for even flying him to California if he didn't even mean to do everything he could to win.
About the part where he has asked every pro to practice with him, TLO stated on twitter that people had offered help to Lilbow but Lilbow declined.
Here's the tweet;
If you ask me, Lilbow deserves the same criticism NaNiwa recieved that one IEM where he messed up. The only difference between those two situations was that Lilbow didn't forfeit after the first game.
Well at this point Lilbow is just fed up with all of it so he's just trolling, thats the usual behaviour really if you aren't famillar with them twitters
So, Lycan, what do you think now about more foreigners at Blizzcon when this happened? :-) You were very vocal in your show about that (your last thought was 4 places for foreigners even though they are not the best). ___
Also this shows how bad the SC2 is handled by teams. Where Life/Innovation/Dream has full roster of people who train with them Lilbow is all alone with no help - according to him. Either is Lilbow lying or the team is really bad when they cannot get him someone to practice with. If the only training ground is the ladder then foreign scene is FUBAR.
I was surprised because Lilbow struck me as a player who entered tournaments with some plans and specific builds in mind. The mechanics between LotV and HotS are not that different. As long as he's playing a lot of one or the other and has some good builds to bring to the match, builds which he already knows or can tweak a little bit without needing a live opponent, he should do pretty well. He wouldn't have to put in that much effort to pick the builds and he'd only have to go through each one a few times vs AI the day before to freshen up on them. It wouldn't be ideal because it'd be unlikely that he innovates and without many hours of practice against a worthy opponent he couldn't hammer out all the details, but still I think he'd get 90% of the way with minimal effort and have a better showing than what he did. Maybe I'm misjudging the whole situation and misjudging him but I think he has the talent and already attained enough skill to do as I've said and the best explanation for when the results prove otherwise is that he gave up before he started.
edit: I'm guessing that it didn't occur to him that a little bit of effort could have carried him 90% of the way and preserved his dignity and given him a shot at actually advancing a round. But to comment on the gist of the OP: It is a bit disappointing that our best players don't see something like this Blizzcon finals, which is the most important tournament in SC2 and is the last HotS tournament ever and the last chance to show all the knowledge and skill you have in HotS, that they don't see it as a challenge and the very reason they got into progaming in the first place. There are several players that have a decent shot at beating top Koreans, and they do it in tournaments here and there, but it's only at a tournament like at Blizzcon where foreigners can make history by advancing a few rounds. Pretty hard to imagine passing that opportunity up out of fear that the off-season won't be enough time to prep for LotV. And if his performance declines in LotV anyway, he's gonna get eaten up by the community.
On November 03 2015 01:13 deacon.frost wrote: So, Lycan, what do you think now about more foreigners at Blizzcon when this happened? :-) You were very vocal in your show about that (your last thought was 4 places for foreigners even though they are not the best). ___
Also this shows how bad the SC2 is handled by teams. Where Life/Innovation/Dream has full roster of people who train with them Lilbow is all alone with no help - according to him. Either is Lilbow lying or the team is really bad when they cannot get him someone to practice with. If the only training ground is the ladder then foreign scene is FUBAR.
Koreans do not practice only with their teams. More often than not they practice cross-teams with their friends, which is why in the "thank you"-section of GSL winner interviews they always thank people from other teams, and then usually their coach for coming to the studio with them.
As TLO stated, people offered to help Lilbow but Lilbow declined. It wasn't a matter of if he COULD practice or not, he simply chose not to.
On November 03 2015 01:10 Jade wrote: Well at this point Lilbow is just fed up with all of it so he's just trolling, thats the usual behaviour really if you aren't famillar with them twitters
He's fed up at the pushback that he's receiving because he didn't practice and was extremely dismissive with any level of accountability. So he can troll all he wants, but I doubt it'll make him look any better.
I didn't really have an opinion of "Lilbow the person" before this fiasco (just that "Lilbow the player" is clearly skilled at the game for a foreigner), but now I do have a negative opinion of his personality.
I think that if Lilbow's intention was to not prepare for the match, the honorable thing to do would have been to forfeit ahead of time so someone else could have taken his spot. Would it have still sucked? Yes. Would it have sucked as much as this? No.
On November 03 2015 01:18 CakeSauc3 wrote: I think that if Lilbow's intention was to not prepare for the match, the honorable thing to do would have been to forfeit ahead of time so someone else could have taken his spot. Would it have still sucked? Yes. Would it have sucked as much as this? No.
Well, he couldn't really have done that since they get paid for just showing up. He was already in the money.
But at least he could have put some effort into actually playing the tournament, and not just showing up to recieve his money. People actually believed in him, and believed that he had done everything in his power to perform to his best ability at Blizzcon, the most prestigeous tournament in StarCraft. However, he disrespected the game, his fans, Blizzard and the tournament as a whole by not caring whatsoever.
If he didn't mention anything about not practising, and just played out the games like he did I don't think people would have cared anywhere near as much regardless of how entertaining disappointing the games were. I think it's just a stupid thing to say.
On November 03 2015 01:22 Ansibled wrote: If he didn't mention anything about not practising, and just played out the games like he did I don't think people would have cared regardless of how entertaining disappointing the games were. I think it's just a stupid thing to say.
I agree. Even something like "I don't really have an excuse for losing this badly... Life just played solidly and tricky, and I just wasn't able to play up to my full potential." Period, end of discussion, everyone shrugs and says #LifeWillAlwaysFindAWay instead of #ScumbagLilbow. But to basically flip off the scene and the WCS stage was a dumb move.
He had to make a choice. Practice for le last HOTS tournament, where almost nobody play except the 16 players in it or rush the new game. Is that is fault if LOTV will be released 2 days after Blizzcon ? Is that is fault is DH qualifier are before Blizzcon? May be he disrepect this Blizzcon. But he respect SC2 wanted to start being a LOTV pro player asap. Either way it would have been cheesy in the end. It was just sad that this "freelose" tournament was the biggest one in SC2. I was sad like everyone seeing him being destroyed and doing such tweet afterward. It was not perfect from him. But I can understand his choice. He was ready to go 3weeks in Korea to practice HOTS. But he canceled at last moment because it couldn't really give him the practice we wanted/needed because of LOTV again.
I think that lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything. If there are players out there who felt that they deserved lilbow's spot, they should have beat lilbow.
This is life we're talking about.Life specifically said that he saw that lilbow's wall-ins were weak. this is life we're talking about. of course he's going to go for the jugular, using his signature lings to do it.
all in all, sucks but i don't think it's a problem
On November 03 2015 01:13 deacon.frost wrote: So, Lycan, what do you think now about more foreigners at Blizzcon when this happened? :-) You were very vocal in your show about that (your last thought was 4 places for foreigners even though they are not the best). ___
Also this shows how bad the SC2 is handled by teams. Where Life/Innovation/Dream has full roster of people who train with them Lilbow is all alone with no help - according to him. Either is Lilbow lying or the team is really bad when they cannot get him someone to practice with. If the only training ground is the ladder then foreign scene is FUBAR.
Koreans do not practice only with their teams. More often than not they practice cross-teams with their friends, which is why in the "thank you"-section of GSL winner interviews they always thank people from other teams, and then usually their coach for coming to the studio with them.
As TLO stated, people offered to help Lilbow but Lilbow declined. It wasn't a matter of if he COULD practice or not, he simply chose not to.
yes, they don't train only with their teammates. But he stated there was no one to train with. He won thousands of charity $ from foreigner WCS and he couldn't even pay some money so the opponents have a reason to train with him? Or the team couldn't pay anything? I agree that HotS was dead game at that time that's why I am stating he could offer a salary to these guys. And as TLO stated there were offers... I am disgusted by this approach of the best foreigner. Even when Stephano was saying "I don't train, just party hard" he looked unshakable and it looked that he has a lot of training behind him(maybe months ago). It didn't look like he just arrived to get free hotel room and trip to US... Grrrrrrrrrrr
On November 03 2015 01:22 Ansibled wrote: If he didn't mention anything about not practising, and just played out the games like he did I don't think people would have cared anywhere near as much regardless of how entertaining disappointing the games were. I think it's just a stupid thing to say.
Game #2 was really weird until folks from LotV section stated that he was looking for a proxy hatch from LotV where in HotS this doesn't make sense.
But even with game #2 I fully agree. It would look weird(MVP.MK level weird) but it would be better than this.
Lilbow is a WCS Champion, no twitter BM can take that away. He is a young man who in the end made a poor choice of words. That's just it, words...
Look at Life's pre and post game interview. Pre game he says he knows nothing of Lilbow and will simply crush him because he's a foreigner, yet post game he admitted to studying him and planning the all in strategies for each game. Players are full of shit and always looking for the #mindgames.
Twisting his words and pitchforking him as a disrespectful player is utter bullshit. He gave his all this year and deserved his spot. The timing wasn't great with DH winter qualifiers just happening, etc. Let's not crucify this young man for a poor choice of words for attention. He's clearly one of, if not THE best foreigner we have. Let's calm down and wish him well in the future.
On November 03 2015 01:28 deacon.frost wrote: But he stated there was no one to train with.
This was a lie, as stated, since obviously people offered to help and practice with Lilbow, but Lilbow refused. This one is all on Lilbow unfortunately.
I do agree with above statements though that if he just kept his mouth shut, this would look like just another destroying of a foreigner by a Korean. Nothing special about it since we see foreigners get destroyed on a daily basis by Koreans, but Lilbow decided to go public with this information which probably was a stupid move.
On November 03 2015 01:32 Ctone23 wrote: Lilbow is a WCS Champion, no twitter BM can take that away. He is a young man who in the end made a poor choice of words. That's just it, words...
Look at Life's pre and post game interview. Pre game he says he knows nothing of Lilbow and will simply crush him because he's a foreigner, yet post game he admitted to studying him and planning the all in strategies for each game. Players are full of shit and always looking for the #mindgames.
Twisting his words and pitchforking him as a disrespectful player is utter bullshit. He gave his all this year and deserved his spot. The timing wasn't great with DH winter qualifiers just happening, etc. Let's not crucify this young man for a poor choice of words for attention. He's clearly one of, if not THE best foreigner we have. Let's calm down and wish him well in the future.
A poor choice of words? He insulted people who disagree with his decision on twitter. Instead of not saying anything about it, he brags about it. That's not a poor choice of words, that's a bad attitude.
On November 03 2015 01:26 Incognoto wrote: I think that lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything. If there are players out there who felt that they deserved lilbow's spot, they should have beat lilbow.
This is life we're talking about.Life specifically said that he saw that lilbow's wall-ins were weak. this is life we're talking about. of course he's going to go for the jugular, using his signature lings to do it.
all in all, sucks but i don't think it's a problem
What? As the only foreigner hope with thousands of fans behind him, he owes people at least that he tries to do his best.
If this was a mainstream sport, this would be an even bigger deal.
On November 03 2015 01:26 Incognoto wrote: I think that lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything. If there are players out there who felt that they deserved lilbow's spot, they should have beat lilbow.
This is life we're talking about.Life specifically said that he saw that lilbow's wall-ins were weak. this is life we're talking about. of course he's going to go for the jugular, using his signature lings to do it.
all in all, sucks but i don't think it's a problem
There are tons of players who could, but they are all in Korea and didn't have the opportunity to do so.
On November 03 2015 01:26 Incognoto wrote: I think that lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything. If there are players out there who felt that they deserved lilbow's spot, they should have beat lilbow.
This is life we're talking about.Life specifically said that he saw that lilbow's wall-ins were weak. this is life we're talking about. of course he's going to go for the jugular, using his signature lings to do it.
all in all, sucks but i don't think it's a problem
What? As the only foreigner hope with thousands of fans behind him, he owes people at least that he tries to do his best.
If this was a mainstream sport, this would be an even bigger deal.
That's why we cannot be a mainstream sport. There are stupid people in sports but they are professionals. Even when they don't try their best they are silent about it and they pretend their best efforts and then say something like "bad period in my life, an old injury returns, something's in the air and I am ill etc.", NOT THIS. This would end damaged their career significantly.
The fact there are people standing behind Lilbow and he's not fined yet from Mil is troublesome for me...
I'm 100% with Lilbow on this one. First, it's Blizzard's fault for making the biggest tournament of HOTS days before LOTV release. Of course no one gives a shit about that game. I disagree with Lycan. Practicing LOTV helps ALOT. Just because they change 1-2 units doesn't change the whole game. You need thousands of games of practice with new units as a pro... Second, it's his choice what he does in any tournament he qualifies for.
People put too much pressure on top foreigners. This thread is a shining example. He lost a few games. Who gives a shit? Move on. I just hope he doesn't pull a Naniwa and fall off the face of the earth.
On November 03 2015 01:26 Incognoto wrote: I think that lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything. If there are players out there who felt that they deserved lilbow's spot, they should have beat lilbow.
This is life we're talking about.Life specifically said that he saw that lilbow's wall-ins were weak. this is life we're talking about. of course he's going to go for the jugular, using his signature lings to do it.
all in all, sucks but i don't think it's a problem
Lilbow owes himself to at least try. He worked so very hard to reach Blizzcon. What you say about Life is obvious to everyone, so it should be obvious to Lilbow - so why not at least give it an actual attempt, instead of rolling over and dying? Even if he has no high level player to practice with, it's not that much of a problem to watch Life play Kung Fu Cup against Stats, PartinG and Zest and see that he likes his cheese.
He hurt his credibility as a professional gamer by not giving it his all to win.
I agree that Lilbow fucked up by saying that he didn't practice HotS, that was a big mistake. However, he had a plan coming to this match. As he said on Facebook I think, he had multiple mid/late game strategies in his head. It happens that Life completely denied him the chance to show them. Because it's Life.
On November 03 2015 01:26 Incognoto wrote: I think that lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything. If there are players out there who felt that they deserved lilbow's spot, they should have beat lilbow.
This is life we're talking about.Life specifically said that he saw that lilbow's wall-ins were weak. this is life we're talking about. of course he's going to go for the jugular, using his signature lings to do it.
all in all, sucks but i don't think it's a problem
There are tons of players who could, but they are all in Korea and didn't have the opportunity to do so.
How does that have anything to do with Lilbow? You want all korean wcs? I don't. I enjoy watching top foreigners.
On November 03 2015 01:40 TRaFFiC wrote: I'm 100% with Lilbow on this one. First, it's Blizzard's fault for making the biggest tournament of HOTS days before LOTV release. Of course no one gives a shit about that game. I disagree with Lycan. Practicing LOTV helps ALOT. Just because they change 1-2 units doesn't change the whole game. You need thousands of games of practice with new units as a pro... Second, it's his choice what he does in any tournament he qualifies for.
People put too much pressure on top foreigners. This thread is a shining example. He lost a few games. Who gives a shit? Move on. I just hope he doesn't pull a Naniwa and fall off the face of the earth.
Actually no one gives a shit about his losses vs Life. Most people give shit about his attitude.
He was supposed to lose and everyone expected him to lose against Life. But with these statements? C'mon, he's supposed to be a professional player and is acting like a spoiled child.
On November 03 2015 01:26 Incognoto wrote: I think that lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything. If there are players out there who felt that they deserved lilbow's spot, they should have beat lilbow.
This is life we're talking about.Life specifically said that he saw that lilbow's wall-ins were weak. this is life we're talking about. of course he's going to go for the jugular, using his signature lings to do it.
all in all, sucks but i don't think it's a problem
There are tons of players who could, but they are all in Korea and didn't have the opportunity to do so.
How does that have anything to do with Lilbow? You want all korean wcs? I don't. I enjoy watching top foreigners.
sure, watchin Lilbow playing LotV in HotS was entertaining.
On November 03 2015 01:40 TRaFFiC wrote: I'm 100% with Lilbow on this one. First, it's Blizzard's fault for making the biggest tournament of HOTS days before LOTV release. Of course no one gives a shit about that game. I disagree with Lycan. Practicing LOTV helps ALOT. Just because they change 1-2 units doesn't change the whole game. You need thousands of games of practice with new units as a pro... Second, it's his choice what he does in any tournament he qualifies for.
People put too much pressure on top foreigners. This thread is a shining example. He lost a few games. Who gives a shit? Move on. I just hope he doesn't pull a Naniwa and fall off the face of the earth.
Expecting foreigners to fucking try is putting too much pressure on them?
On November 03 2015 01:26 Incognoto wrote: I think that lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything. If there are players out there who felt that they deserved lilbow's spot, they should have beat lilbow.
This is life we're talking about.Life specifically said that he saw that lilbow's wall-ins were weak. this is life we're talking about. of course he's going to go for the jugular, using his signature lings to do it.
all in all, sucks but i don't think it's a problem
There are tons of players who could, but they are all in Korea and didn't have the opportunity to do so.
How does that have anything to do with Lilbow? You want all korean wcs? I don't. I enjoy watching top foreigners.
I enjoy watch top foreigners too, a lot. But if the best the foreign scene can produce is this, then they shouldn't be at Blizzcon.
On November 03 2015 01:40 TRaFFiC wrote: I'm 100% with Lilbow on this one. First, it's Blizzard's fault for making the biggest tournament of HOTS days before LOTV release. Of course no one gives a shit about that game. I disagree with Lycan. Practicing LOTV helps ALOT. Just because they change 1-2 units doesn't change the whole game. You need thousands of games of practice with new units as a pro... Second, it's his choice what he does in any tournament he qualifies for.
People put too much pressure on top foreigners. This thread is a shining example. He lost a few games. Who gives a shit? Move on. I just hope he doesn't pull a Naniwa and fall off the face of the earth.
Expecting foreigners to fucking try is putting too much pressure on them?
On November 03 2015 01:26 Incognoto wrote: I think that lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything. If there are players out there who felt that they deserved lilbow's spot, they should have beat lilbow.
This is life we're talking about.Life specifically said that he saw that lilbow's wall-ins were weak. this is life we're talking about. of course he's going to go for the jugular, using his signature lings to do it.
all in all, sucks but i don't think it's a problem
What? As the only foreigner hope with thousands of fans behind him, he owes people at least that he tries to do his best.
If this was a mainstream sport, this would be an even bigger deal.
That's why we cannot be a mainstream sport. There are stupid people in sports but they are professionals. Even when they don't try their best they are silent about it and they pretend their best efforts and then say something like "bad period in my life, an old injury returns, something's in the air and I am ill etc.", NOT THIS. This would end damaged their career significantly.
The fact there are people standing behind Lilbow and he's not fined yet from Mil is troublesome for me...
Well, people call eSports and StarCraft a legit sport when it suits them ^.^ Now when someone like Lilbow shows no professionalism, we're not a sport. But when it suits StarCraft and its players - we are indeed a sport!
On November 03 2015 01:40 TRaFFiC wrote: I'm 100% with Lilbow on this one. First, it's Blizzard's fault for making the biggest tournament of HOTS days before LOTV release. Of course no one gives a shit about that game. I disagree with Lycan. Practicing LOTV helps ALOT. Just because they change 1-2 units doesn't change the whole game. You need thousands of games of practice with new units as a pro... Second, it's his choice what he does in any tournament he qualifies for.
People put too much pressure on top foreigners. This thread is a shining example. He lost a few games. Who gives a shit? Move on. I just hope he doesn't pull a Naniwa and fall off the face of the earth.
Expecting foreigners to fucking try is putting too much pressure on them?
On November 03 2015 01:26 Incognoto wrote: I think that lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything. If there are players out there who felt that they deserved lilbow's spot, they should have beat lilbow.
This is life we're talking about.Life specifically said that he saw that lilbow's wall-ins were weak. this is life we're talking about. of course he's going to go for the jugular, using his signature lings to do it.
all in all, sucks but i don't think it's a problem
There are tons of players who could, but they are all in Korea and didn't have the opportunity to do so.
How does that have anything to do with Lilbow? You want all korean wcs? I don't. I enjoy watching top foreigners.
I enjoy watch top foreigners too, a lot. But if the best the foreign scene can produce is this, then they shouldn't be at Blizzcon.
This has nothing to do with trying. Lilbow himself said he tried his hardest in the matches. His word is good enough for me. He's a pro player in a scene where it's very hard to make money these days. All he did was prioritize his time to maximize his profits. This is what all pros should do. I don't see why the community thinks it's their right to choose what he spends time on.
If it's true that he could have had help from people but decided against it, then that's 100% on him. Yes, it's his choice, but I think his logic is totally flawed.
I cannot believe that the level he is now at in LotV he couldn't achieve if he'd started now. Yes, there's the idea that "but now I can get EVEN BETTER". If that's the case then nobody new would ever be able to enter into the competitive arena. If he'd waited, then a lot of the work he would be putting in would be done for him by other Protoss players.
Maybe he thought he'd never stand a chance against Life to begin with. I don't agree with that in the slightest. I had enough replays from Life's games to tell him straight up that would most likely be his strategy in Game 1. Life did his research and beat Lilbow.
If it's the idea of getting a head start now, I propose someone sets up a showmatch between Life and Lilbow for January of 2016, best of 7. If Lilbow loses then his choice to disrespect a $100+k tournament was meaningless.
On November 03 2015 01:44 Kokujin wrote: It's disappointing for the fans but you can't really blame a guy for doing what he believes is in his best financial interest.
I dont' get this attitude at all. OF COURSE YOU CAN BLAME HIM! Should we not blame those Wall Street bankers for fucking up the economy because they were just doing what was in their best financial interest? Of course not, because it's a blamable offense.
Lilbow got in on a joke of a system specifically rigged to get a foreign hope into Blizzcon, treated the whole match as a joke and free money and from the looks of things turned down even the offers to practice with people so he wouldn't look like a joke.
He's not the only foreigner but he's the best foreigner and if the best foreigner can't be bothered to actually try in the biggest event of the year then they deserve nothing. The sooner Blizzard ends the stupid region lock the better we'll all be
On November 03 2015 01:40 TRaFFiC wrote: Practicing LOTV helps ALOT. Just because they change 1-2 units doesn't change the whole game. You need thousands of games of practice with new units as a pro...
He went full LotV before the biggest HotS tournament he gets to play in, which is most likely a once in a life time chance. Fine, his choice. But you won't see that out of the Koreans. INnoVation didn't go full HotS when he was playing in the last GSL of Wings, he didn't take that head start, but when HotS came out he became the best anyway. That's also what TLO means by saying foreigners always focus on the future too much. And basically bragging about it on twitter doesn't help.
I would like to quote Chuddinater, KeSPA representative (perhaps this could be added to OP even);
"If western players have that kind of mentality then they have no idea what being a progamer means. Korean players in SC2 and LoL understand the burden of taking on the title of progamer and will practice and play their hearts out to honor that title.
Lilbow is a disgrace to everyone in the world that poured their heart and soul into e-Sports. Not just the players, but every single person that makes e-Sports possible and helped grow it to where it is right now."
If he struggled to find practice partners on EU, why didn't he just search KR ladder? Any player in the top 35 are going to be stronger than his EU practice partners, and ranks 36-~80 are still good practice.
His losses to life did not even look like him being rusty at hots as much as it was him not understanding the game and not adapting to life's early game builds.
On November 03 2015 02:04 duckk wrote: If he struggled to find practice partners on EU, why didn't he just search KR ladder? Any player in the top 35 are going to be stronger than his EU practice partners, and ranks 36-~80 are still good practice.
His losses to life did not even look like him being rusty at hots as much as it was him not understanding the game and not adapting to life's early game builds.
No one is playing HOTS ladder, Blizzcon players are doing custom games.
On November 03 2015 01:57 showstealer1829 wrote: Lilbow got in on a joke of a system specifically rigged to get a foreign hope into Blizzcon, treated the whole match as a joke and free money and from the looks of things turned down even the offers to practice with people so he wouldn't look like a joke.
He's not the only foreigner but he's the best foreigner and if the best foreigner can't be bothered to actually try in the biggest event of the year then they deserve nothing. The sooner Blizzard ends the stupid region lock the better we'll all be
This is actually a good post. Region locks were added to get players like Lilbow into Blizzcon, and when he actually made it there; he totally shat on the entire thing. That's one big thank you to Blizzard :D
On November 03 2015 02:04 duckk wrote: If he struggled to find practice partners on EU, why didn't he just search KR ladder? Any player in the top 35 are going to be stronger than his EU practice partners, and ranks 36-~80 are still good practice.
His losses to life did not even look like him being rusty at hots as much as it was him not understanding the game and not adapting to life's early game builds.
No one is playing HOTS ladder, Blizzcon players are doing custom games.
On November 03 2015 02:04 duckk wrote: If he struggled to find practice partners on EU, why didn't he just search KR ladder? Any player in the top 35 are going to be stronger than his EU practice partners, and ranks 36-~80 are still good practice.
His losses to life did not even look like him being rusty at hots as much as it was him not understanding the game and not adapting to life's early game builds.
No one is playing HOTS ladder, Blizzcon players are doing custom games.
As could Lilbow. He just chose not to.
playing 100s of games with elazer and tlo will make you still lose and he wouldn't be qualified for dh.
The only mistake here is his PR, if he had shut the fuck up about it nobody would have said anything.
Even going to the ro8 is only 2.500$ more, if you look at it rationnaly it's a stupid decision to go all in on hots with DH coming.
How did these guys train without Kespa team behind them and with "dead ladder" in EU, US and Kr?
That he could not train is a terrible terrible sentence and strong Zergs in Europe have asked him if he wanted/needed help. Mil would have send him to Korea, where I bet they could find / pay some strong Zerg to train with him. You will allways find ways.
And the sentence about life cheesing... it was a skill test, 3 easy to hold all ins and he failed all 3 of them despite scouting. I mean it is Life, he cheeses with Zerglings, thats nothing out of the box.
And what do you want to focus on LotV? I mean Zest for example had to play vs the God INnoVation is Super Korean Form 3 and still prepared. And this guy will play a LotV Tournament with 20k on the line right after release against some of the best Koreans out there. Lilbow just showed something I cannot forgive and I hope he gets trashed in LotV by hard working foreigners and koreans. What he did was a straight insult to everyone watching the game.
I hope Blizzard will learn from this shit and reopen WCS to all Koreans willing to move to Europe and US. Make the residence during the complete Season as requirement, not sports/working visa. Such a shame and such a joke when we could have seen Dark, Hyun or others who would have given their heart and soul during training for this special event.
On November 03 2015 02:04 duckk wrote: If he struggled to find practice partners on EU, why didn't he just search KR ladder? Any player in the top 35 are going to be stronger than his EU practice partners, and ranks 36-~80 are still good practice.
His losses to life did not even look like him being rusty at hots as much as it was him not understanding the game and not adapting to life's early game builds.
The Korean ladder is just as dead. All the Koreans are either playing LotV, on break, or playing HotS custom games privately.
On November 03 2015 02:04 duckk wrote: If he struggled to find practice partners on EU, why didn't he just search KR ladder? Any player in the top 35 are going to be stronger than his EU practice partners, and ranks 36-~80 are still good practice.
His losses to life did not even look like him being rusty at hots as much as it was him not understanding the game and not adapting to life's early game builds.
The Korean ladder is just as dead. All the Koreans are either playing LotV, on break, or playing HotS custom games privately.
And if you train with a korean you can be 100% sure your strats are gonna be leaked.
This was the first tournament of SC I've watched in several months. I actually stayed tuned in because "oh hey a non KR flag for once that's new"
And then I see the match and the shit after and it's just like... ok. SC is still full of children, but at least the KR children have enough external and internal motivation to give a shit about being an actual professional.
On November 03 2015 02:04 duckk wrote: If he struggled to find practice partners on EU, why didn't he just search KR ladder? Any player in the top 35 are going to be stronger than his EU practice partners, and ranks 36-~80 are still good practice.
His losses to life did not even look like him being rusty at hots as much as it was him not understanding the game and not adapting to life's early game builds.
No one is playing HOTS ladder, Blizzcon players are doing custom games.
As could Lilbow. He just chose not to.
playing 100s of games with elazer and tlo will make you still lose and he wouldn't be qualified for dh.
The only mistake here is his PR, if he had shut the fuck up about it nobody would have said anything.
Even going to the ro8 is only 2.500$ more, if you look at it rationnaly it's a stupid decision to go all in on hots with DH coming.
Yeah why work for an extra 3 grand. Who would want that kind of money that's like nothing!
On November 03 2015 02:08 Clonester wrote: Polt Hydra Rain PartinG Fantasy
How did these guys train without Kespa team behind them and with "dead ladder" in EU, US and Kr?
That he could not train is a terrible terrible sentence and strong Zergs in Europe have asked him if he wanted/needed help. Mil would have send him to Korea, where I bet they could find / pay some strong Zerg to train with him. You will allways find ways.
And the sentence about life cheesing... it was a skill test, 3 easy to hold all ins and he failed all 3 of them despite scouting. I mean it is Life, he cheeses with Zerglings, thats nothing out of the box.
And what do you want to focus on LotV? I mean Zest for example had to play vs the God INnoVation is Super Korean Form 3 and still prepared. And this guy will play a LotV Tournament with 20k on the line right after release against some of the best Koreans out there. Lilbow just showed something I cannot forgive and I hope he gets trashed in LotV by hard working foreigners and koreans. What he did was a straight insult to everyone watching the game.
I hope Blizzard will learn from this shit and reopen WCS to all Koreans willing to move to Europe and US. Make the residence during the complete Season as requirement, not sports/working visa. Such a shame and such a joke when we could have seen Dark, Hyun or others who would have given their heart and soul during training for this special event.
On November 03 2015 01:40 TRaFFiC wrote: I'm 100% with Lilbow on this one. First, it's Blizzard's fault for making the biggest tournament of HOTS days before LOTV release. Of course no one gives a shit about that game. I disagree with Lycan. Practicing LOTV helps ALOT. Just because they change 1-2 units doesn't change the whole game. You need thousands of games of practice with new units as a pro... Second, it's his choice what he does in any tournament he qualifies for.
People put too much pressure on top foreigners. This thread is a shining example. He lost a few games. Who gives a shit? Move on. I just hope he doesn't pull a Naniwa and fall off the face of the earth.
Actually no one gives a shit about his losses vs Life. Most people give shit about his attitude.
He was supposed to lose and everyone expected him to lose against Life. But with these statements? C'mon, he's supposed to be a professional player and is acting like a spoiled child.
On November 03 2015 01:26 Incognoto wrote: I think that lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything. If there are players out there who felt that they deserved lilbow's spot, they should have beat lilbow.
This is life we're talking about.Life specifically said that he saw that lilbow's wall-ins were weak. this is life we're talking about. of course he's going to go for the jugular, using his signature lings to do it.
all in all, sucks but i don't think it's a problem
There are tons of players who could, but they are all in Korea and didn't have the opportunity to do so.
How does that have anything to do with Lilbow? You want all korean wcs? I don't. I enjoy watching top foreigners.
sure, watchin Lilbow playing LotV in HotS was entertaining.
He is a spoiled child, you cant get anymore else from someone like that.
we can all say what we like but he did lose to 101_EarlyAgression, life said it himself, lil who? Exactly! I personally wanted lilbow to do well but come on, did anyone even expect him to beat life? really? Come on now. Hes said what hes said and i admire the truth. Hes moving onto the next game, hes got life, then other koreans possibility of inno as well. Nope. He knew it, we knew it. its a shame hes said what hes said, but god, i would of known in my heart im going home round one.
As for the pro NA players as well, most of them can come out of the woodwork now and say what they like but all im seeing is hearthstone, overwatch,LOTV, heroes and other games. Yep. They would have made really worthy opponents seeing that lilbow fucked all them up at DH and done so well over the last year, he literally had noone to play against of a life skill i dont care what anyone says, life is life and i think fenner said it on his stream, you cant watch life and play like life. Hes never been more right.
On November 03 2015 02:08 Clonester wrote: Polt Hydra Rain PartinG Fantasy .
Top 2 here especially, I doubt many thought Polt had much of a hope against Rain, and Hydra lost to Lilbow at WCS S3 so what hope did he have against Dream? but you know what? They at least tried and Hydra WON. It's not a Korea v The Foreigner thing, it's a respect thing, just as Chuddinator said. They showed respect, Lilbow showed none. That's the difference.
On November 03 2015 02:08 Clonester wrote: Polt Hydra Rain PartinG Fantasy
How did these guys train without Kespa team behind them and with "dead ladder" in EU, US and Kr?
That he could not train is a terrible terrible sentence and strong Zergs in Europe have asked him if he wanted/needed help. Mil would have send him to Korea, where I bet they could find / pay some strong Zerg to train with him. You will allways find ways.
And the sentence about life cheesing... it was a skill test, 3 easy to hold all ins and he failed all 3 of them despite scouting. I mean it is Life, he cheeses with Zerglings, thats nothing out of the box.
And what do you want to focus on LotV? I mean Zest for example had to play vs the God INnoVation is Super Korean Form 3 and still prepared. And this guy will play a LotV Tournament with 20k on the line right after release against some of the best Koreans out there. Lilbow just showed something I cannot forgive and I hope he gets trashed in LotV by hard working foreigners and koreans. What he did was a straight insult to everyone watching the game.
I hope Blizzard will learn from this shit and reopen WCS to all Koreans willing to move to Europe and US. Make the residence during the complete Season as requirement, not sports/working visa. Such a shame and such a joke when we could have seen Dark, Hyun or others who would have given their heart and soul during training for this special event.
Networking
Well, we realize that you want to defend your fellow frenchy just like us swedes defended NaNiwa back at IEM but meh... Lilbow could have practiced if he wanted to, but he didn't want to. He chose not to. He didn't care. Those are facts as he himself have stated.
It actually does make him sound like a spoiled child like someone said in this thread. He pulled a NaNiwa and deserves just as much shit as NaNiwa recieved back in the days.
I wish someone like Snute or Bunny or whoever would have played better during the last year so they got this 'foreigner spot'. I'm sure they would have practiced at least.
On November 03 2015 02:08 Clonester wrote: Polt Hydra Rain PartinG Fantasy .
Top 2 here especially, I doubt many thought Polt had much of a hope against Rain, and Hydra lost to Lilbow at WCS S3 so what hope did he have against Dream? but you know what? They at least tried and Hydra WON. It's not a Korea v The Foreigner thing, it's a respect thing, just as Chuddinator said. They showed respect, Lilbow showed none. That's the difference.
Hydra lost to all ins in ZvP so what chances he had in TvZ.
On November 03 2015 02:13 StatixEx wrote: we can all say what we like but he did lose to 101_EarlyAgression, life said it himself, lil who? Exactly! I personally wanted lilbow to do well but come on, did anyone even expect him to beat life? really? Come on now. Hes said what hes said and i admire the truth. Hes moving onto the next game, hes got life, then other koreans possibility of inno as well. Nope. He knew it, we knew it. its a shame hes said what hes said, but god, i would of known in my heart im going home round one.
As for the pro NA players as well, most of them can come out of the woodwork now and say what they like but all im seeing is hearthstone, overwatch,LOTV, heroes and other games. Yep. They would have made really worthy opponents seeing that lilbow fucked all them up at DH and done so well over the last year, he literally had noone to play against of a life skill i dont care what anyone says, life is life and i think fenner said it on his stream, you cant watch life and play like life. Hes never been more right.
Life is not this unbeatable deity. We're talking about a player who's lost 3-1 to Welmu, 3-0 to Scarlett and 2-1 to fucking Sjow. Obviously Lilbow was not favored against him, but this "it's over before it even began" attitude is toxic to the foreign scene.
On November 03 2015 02:08 Clonester wrote: Polt Hydra Rain PartinG Fantasy .
Top 2 here especially, I doubt many thought Polt had much of a hope against Rain, and Hydra lost to Lilbow at WCS S3 so what hope did he have against Dream? but you know what? They at least tried and Hydra WON. It's not a Korea v The Foreigner thing, it's a respect thing, just as Chuddinator said. They showed respect, Lilbow showed none. That's the difference.
Hydra lost to all ins in ZvP so what chances he had in TvZ.
Top 2 logic here.
Do you have anything relevant to add or are you just here to troll?
On November 03 2015 02:08 Clonester wrote: Polt Hydra Rain PartinG Fantasy .
Top 2 here especially, I doubt many thought Polt had much of a hope against Rain, and Hydra lost to Lilbow at WCS S3 so what hope did he have against Dream? but you know what? They at least tried and Hydra WON. It's not a Korea v The Foreigner thing, it's a respect thing, just as Chuddinator said. They showed respect, Lilbow showed none. That's the difference.
Hydra lost to all ins in ZvP so what chances he had in TvZ.
Top 2 logic here.
Do you have anything relevant to add or are you just here to troll?
I'm wondering if you really believe that because Hydra lost to all ins vs Lilbow he had no chances vs Dream. I thought Dream would win convincigly but what you wrote made no sense.
On November 03 2015 02:00 sd_andeh wrote: I would like to quote Chuddinater, KeSPA representative (perhaps this could be added to OP even);
"If western players have that kind of mentality then they have no idea what being a progamer means. Korean players in SC2 and LoL understand the burden of taking on the title of progamer and will practice and play their hearts out to honor that title.
Lilbow is a disgrace to everyone in the world that poured their heart and soul into e-Sports. Not just the players, but every single person that makes e-Sports possible and helped grow it to where it is right now."
Pretty ridiculous stance there. And really funny that he goes to reddit of all places to take the high road on what it means to be a progamer. Giving Lilbow shit for performing poorly is not justice. I'm sure Life was thinking "hahaha thanks for the free wins" and not all this high-minded bullshit. And I'm sure Chuddinater does not speak for the community, even if he likes to do so and the community tolerates him doing so, but is it not obvious that if you feel compelled to say the things Chuddinater said then it's not true that those things are actually being practiced? A progaming community truly dedicated to playing well and giving it their best is not stopping to think, and especially not stopping to say, bullshit like that.
On November 03 2015 02:08 Clonester wrote: Polt Hydra Rain PartinG Fantasy .
Top 2 here especially, I doubt many thought Polt had much of a hope against Rain, and Hydra lost to Lilbow at WCS S3 so what hope did he have against Dream? but you know what? They at least tried and Hydra WON. It's not a Korea v The Foreigner thing, it's a respect thing, just as Chuddinator said. They showed respect, Lilbow showed none. That's the difference.
Hydra lost to all ins in ZvP so what chances he had in TvZ.
Top 2 logic here.
And still he was a WCS Champ just like Lilbow. And still he is in Foreign Team And still the ladders are called to be dead.
And what happend Polt and Hydra, without a team just trained. They trained hard, very hard. And they showed great games, Hydra even won against Dream. He trained and trained and trained for this event. Lilbow, did not, he even showed everyone in the face that he didnt care, didnt want help and after it blamed Life for the all ins he could not hold a minute. Please, if this has happend with Showtime, TLO or god sake the hated Gungfu you would be at the frist front to show your anger about that attitude. But he is frensh so its okay. Like Nani and Sweden.
On November 03 2015 02:08 Clonester wrote: Polt Hydra Rain PartinG Fantasy .
Top 2 here especially, I doubt many thought Polt had much of a hope against Rain, and Hydra lost to Lilbow at WCS S3 so what hope did he have against Dream? but you know what? They at least tried and Hydra WON. It's not a Korea v The Foreigner thing, it's a respect thing, just as Chuddinator said. They showed respect, Lilbow showed none. That's the difference.
Hydra lost to all ins in ZvP so what chances he had in TvZ.
Top 2 logic here.
And still he was a WCS Champ just like Lilbow. And still he is in Foreign Team And still the ladders are called to be dead.
And what happend Polt and Hydra, without a team just trained. They trained hard, very hard. And they showed great games, Hydra even won against Dream. He trained and trained and trained for this event. Lilbow, did not, he even showed everyone in the face that he didnt care, didnt want help and after it blamed Life for the all ins he could not hold a minute. Please, if this has happend with Showtime, TLO or god sake the hated Gungfu you would be at the frist front to show your anger about that attitude. But he is frensh so its okay. Like Nani and Sweden.
Like Hydra has 0 contact within the korean scene to train.
This shitstorm is completely irrational, though obviously Lilbow/Millenium made a mistake selling his decision like he/they did. Get some PR dudes, when e.g. Taeja (or MC and all those others...) dropped out of the much more prestigious GSL to make easy money in WCS America Liquid also didn't come out and said that, but put together some crap about foreign exposure. I guess it's the sign of inexperience with these situations that made him try to downplay the upcoming defeat before the games were even played, which in the end just made it worse. Hope next time they will just make the typical, well-prepared PR statement about "long journey", "hard to prepare for opponent", "sorry that I could not show my best play today but I will try to do my best in LotV" after the match and stay quiet otherwise.
In general, Liquid'Bunny has the best take on the whole situation. Obviously for the player himself (Lilbow), but also the ones critizising him harshly without being the best role-model to begin with.
On November 03 2015 02:08 Clonester wrote: Polt Hydra Rain PartinG Fantasy
How did these guys train without Kespa team behind them and with "dead ladder" in EU, US and Kr?
That he could not train is a terrible terrible sentence and strong Zergs in Europe have asked him if he wanted/needed help. Mil would have send him to Korea, where I bet they could find / pay some strong Zerg to train with him. You will allways find ways.
And the sentence about life cheesing... it was a skill test, 3 easy to hold all ins and he failed all 3 of them despite scouting. I mean it is Life, he cheeses with Zerglings, thats nothing out of the box.
And what do you want to focus on LotV? I mean Zest for example had to play vs the God INnoVation is Super Korean Form 3 and still prepared. And this guy will play a LotV Tournament with 20k on the line right after release against some of the best Koreans out there. Lilbow just showed something I cannot forgive and I hope he gets trashed in LotV by hard working foreigners and koreans. What he did was a straight insult to everyone watching the game.
I hope Blizzard will learn from this shit and reopen WCS to all Koreans willing to move to Europe and US. Make the residence during the complete Season as requirement, not sports/working visa. Such a shame and such a joke when we could have seen Dark, Hyun or others who would have given their heart and soul during training for this special event.
Networking
Well, we realize that you want to defend your fellow frenchy just like us swedes defended NaNiwa back at IEM but meh... Lilbow could have practiced if he wanted to, but he didn't want to. He chose not to. He didn't care. Those are facts as he himself have stated.
It actually does make him sound like a spoiled child like someone said in this thread. He pulled a NaNiwa and deserves just as much shit as NaNiwa recieved back in the days.
I wish someone like Snute or Bunny or whoever would have played better during the last year so they got this 'foreigner spot'. I'm sure they would have practiced at least.
Thanks for asking but even if I'm French I was not cheering for Lilbow but Life. I think it's a good idea to focus on LotV even thought he should not have tweet after the match.
On November 03 2015 02:00 sd_andeh wrote: I would like to quote Chuddinater, KeSPA representative (perhaps this could be added to OP even);
"If western players have that kind of mentality then they have no idea what being a progamer means. Korean players in SC2 and LoL understand the burden of taking on the title of progamer and will practice and play their hearts out to honor that title.
Lilbow is a disgrace to everyone in the world that poured their heart and soul into e-Sports. Not just the players, but every single person that makes e-Sports possible and helped grow it to where it is right now."
Pretty ridiculous stance there. And really funny that he goes to reddit of all places to take the high road on what it means to be a progamer. Giving Lilbow shit for performing poorly is not justice. I'm sure Life was thinking "hahaha thanks for the free wins" and not all this high-minded bullshit. And I'm sure Chuddinater does not speak for the community, even if he likes to do so and the community tolerates him doing so, but is it not obvious that if you feel compelled to say the things Chuddinater said then it's not true that those things are actually being practiced? A progaming community truly dedicated to playing well and giving it their best is not stopping to think, and especially not stopping to say, bullshit like that.
Hey Tyler,
I definitely agree that it's weird that Chuddinater would go to reddit with such criticism, but you can't deny the fact that he actually has a point. Lilbow made himself look really unprofessional and disrespected the most beautiful tournament we have in StarCraft. I don't like the generalizing though.
On November 03 2015 02:08 Clonester wrote: Polt Hydra Rain PartinG Fantasy .
Top 2 here especially, I doubt many thought Polt had much of a hope against Rain, and Hydra lost to Lilbow at WCS S3 so what hope did he have against Dream? but you know what? They at least tried and Hydra WON. It's not a Korea v The Foreigner thing, it's a respect thing, just as Chuddinator said. They showed respect, Lilbow showed none. That's the difference.
Hydra lost to all ins in ZvP so what chances he had in TvZ.
Top 2 logic here.
Do you have anything relevant to add or are you just here to troll?
I'm wondering if you really believe that because Hydra lost to all ins vs Lilbow he had no chances vs Dream. I thought Dream would win convincigly but what you wrote made no sense.
Not a Kespa korean, Just like Lilbow. Facing a Kespa Korean, just like Lilbow Dream having a great year. Hydra struggling and losing series to Lilbow, even they were all ins Facing the same problems as Lilbow
Gee I wonder why?
My point is, not many would have given Polt or Hydra a chance against Rain and Dream. but they didn't stop trying because "I'm not going to win anyway and I want to get ahead in LotV", Again I point out Hydra WON, Polt came within a map of beating Rain, Lilbow embarrassed himself, embarrassed every foreign player who dreams of making it to Blizzcon and then went on social media and did the equivalent of fucking SMILING about it. That's the difference. As I said, it's not a Korean v Foreigner thing, it's a respect thing, Polt and Hydra showed respect, Lilbow somehow showed less than zero.
I have and thought this was a stupid choice by Lilbow and it reflects poorly on the foreign scene that's so desperate for someone to come and stand up to the Koreans. People are right though, his decisions to focus on his career are his own but at the end of the day, the lifeblood of this game is ENTERTAINMENT. I think as a fan of SC who's watching the games for my entertainment, that I have the right to criticize Lilbow for his decisions. If he's not gonna show good games, why should I ever watch him?
This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
LoL i wouldn't have guessed that this gets so much attention and uproar. Who the fuck cares anyways? Lilbow never had a chance to begin with, he got that (and i am sure most of the community understands that too) His statements obviously were bad PR, but cmon. Foreigners simply shouldn't be part of Blizzcon (well they can do analysis i guess), easy solution and everybody is happy again :D
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
You misunderstand.
Nobody blames or shits on Lilbow for losing to Life. That was expected.
It was his statements about not even caring about the tournament that started the shitstorm. Playing 2 games of HOTS the last 3 months to 'prepare' for the single biggest stage he might ever play on.
I think most relevant things have been said and I already stated my opinion on that topic, so I won't reiterate. I only wanted to ask one thing. Imagine that after the soul crushing defeat vs New Zealand in the quarterfinals of last World Cup, French players and staff came to the interviewers and said "it's alright, don't worry, that doesn't really affect us, rugby union is a dead game anyway, the new shit is rugby sevens, that's gonna be at the Olympics and we decided to focus on that". They would have get massacred. If e-sports aims at having a legitimacy as a true sport, we shouldn't be surprised when pros who do silly things with their public image get a huge amount of flame. And I think he deserves every single ounce of it. I know he doesn't care -and I already disliked him- but he doesn't even exist for me anymore. I'm a happy roach
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy.
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy.
I don't really like this post. A simple cheese from a player like Life isn't the same as a cheese from a random zerg in diamond league.
It's perfectly okay to die to cheeses from Life. Not caring about it, the tournament or HOTS is the problem.
The thing is, while his focus was on LotV and there was no way for him to get good practice, he still prepared for Life and tried his best. Lilbow just couldn't defend against Life's playstyle and didn't even get to the stage of the game where his preparation could show. If he tweeted something along the lines of, "I tried my best, but it wasn't enough. Too bad I didn't even get to show what I prepared." or something, everything would be fine.
Sadly he tweeted some stupid stuff and now we have this shitstorm.
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy.
No you're missing the point. And it's really not the right time to complain about WCS level, because another WCS champion eliminated a two times SSL finalist and the last one gave a run for his money to a GSL champion ; hell, he would even have probably eliminated him if he didn't change that rally point on Coda.
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy.
I don't really like this post. A simple cheese from a player like Life isn't the same as a cheese from a random zerg in diamond league.
It's perfectly okay to die to cheeses from Life. Not caring about it, the tournament or HOTS is the problem.
Yes, Parting, Stats, Zest all died to such builds from Life lately. SC2 has always been like that, sometimes you just die to the very strong coinflip nature of the game and facing the best at it doesn't help to begin with. Also Korean Teams not paying their players well is a different discussion entirely.
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy.
I don't really like this post. A simple cheese from a player like Life isn't the same as a cheese from a random zerg in diamond league.
It's perfectly okay to die to cheeses from Life. Not caring about it, the tournament or HOTS is the problem.
Yeah,mine plus your point makes the whole thing even worse. Its just so sad, getting hyped the whole year and watching the top 16 constantly evolving, just to get such a situation.
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy.
No you're missing the point. And it's really not the right time to complain about WCS level, because another WCS champion eliminated a two times SSL finalist and the last one gave a run for his money to a GSL champion ; hell, he would even have probably eliminated him if he didn't change that rally point on Coda.
I mean...still. The fact that he scouted the cheese and didn't react to it and expected a macro game from LIFE is just lol-worthy.
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Wow, wow, wow, you are so incredibly defensive towards a player who just shat on the community which is rooting for him. He f*cked up and he deserves every single bit of critisism posted here.
-He should have give up his spot to someone who deserved it?
No he should not. You are right on that part, but when commiting to comming to a 5k entryreward tournament, you are supposed to come well prepared. You are supposed to deliver to the fans and to put up atleast a decent fight. If you lack motivation and mentallity to do so? Yes right then you should keep the honor to yourself and forfeit in advance.
It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember.
It is not shameful to lose against a cheese once. It is not shamefull to lose against a cheese twice, but losing three times against a player so well known for his cheeses is just unacceptable, but forgivable. Stating that you don't give a damn about the tourney as a whole and rather just focus on LOTV and then going out 3-0 in 21 minutes is shamefull.
We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
Remember when a certain player proberushed his opponent because he thought the system was sh1t? Yes, that guy. He got completely crushed by the community for what he did. People called him unrespectful and basically never forgave him until the end of his career. People can act unrespectful in the moment (by posting twitter), but you are noway going to tell me that ESL only recoreded those interviews a day beforehand. The reason why a | certain player" probe rushed was because he thought the system sucked and the game didn't matter to him. The reason why this player gave away what could be described as a complete walkover is because he didn't care.
If a Football player is great at Rugby as well, but he has a World Cup in Football comming, you cannot waste time on training Rugby, comming ill-prepared to the World Cup... Because you had to train for a Rugby Tournament happening in 5 months...
On November 03 2015 02:00 sd_andeh wrote: I would like to quote Chuddinater, KeSPA representative (perhaps this could be added to OP even);
"If western players have that kind of mentality then they have no idea what being a progamer means. Korean players in SC2 and LoL understand the burden of taking on the title of progamer and will practice and play their hearts out to honor that title.
Lilbow is a disgrace to everyone in the world that poured their heart and soul into e-Sports. Not just the players, but every single person that makes e-Sports possible and helped grow it to where it is right now."
Pretty ridiculous stance there. And really funny that he goes to reddit of all places to take the high road on what it means to be a progamer. Giving Lilbow shit for performing poorly is not justice. I'm sure Life was thinking "hahaha thanks for the free wins" and not all this high-minded bullshit. And I'm sure Chuddinater does not speak for the community, even if he likes to do so and the community tolerates him doing so, but is it not obvious that if you feel compelled to say the things Chuddinater said then it's not true that those things are actually being practiced? A progaming community truly dedicated to playing well and giving it their best is not stopping to think, and especially not stopping to say, bullshit like that.
Hey Tyler,
I definitely agree that it's weird that Chuddinater would go to reddit with such criticism, but you can't deny the fact that he actually has a point. Lilbow made himself look really unprofessional and disrespected the most beautiful tournament we have in StarCraft. I don't like the generalizing though.
He has to have a point in saying it though. Is he trying to make Lilbow feel bad? Is he trying to make Koreans look better? Why did he feel compelled to say that? Whatever it was, I don't find it consistent with the very philosophy he's espousing. Professionals don't have to go around saying "we're professional" because they just act the way they think is the right way to act and they associate with like-minded people and that's that. There's never any need for public condemnation of people who behave differently and there's never even any desire to do so because that itself isn't professional.
It's funny too because Lilbow has been consistent in saying that he prioritizes LotV and there's a history of KOREAN players making similar decisions, having poor performances in some events because they're prioritizing other events. And that's just accepted as a reality of being a progamer. This has been an ongoing issue forever with KeSPA teams handling a player's preparation time between Proleague and individual leagues. It's also been an issue with how Korean Brood War progamers used to handle their WCG Grand Finals matches. Korea does not have a perfect history of trying their hardest in everything they enter and it's understandable. No need to publicly shit on people for having too much on their plate. It's a mistake that is going to continue happening as long as we have an abundance of events like we do.
Everyone is only talking about his tweet, but he already said it in the interview before the match:
Before his match against Life, Lilbow said: To prepare for blizzcon I almost didn't practice at all. Because it's not that I don't take this match seriously, but I think preparing the transition to LotV is more important because I could practice one month to maybe only lose in one best of five
On November 03 2015 01:32 Ctone23 wrote: Lilbow is a WCS Champion, no twitter BM can take that away. He is a young man who in the end made a poor choice of words. That's just it, words...
Look at Life's pre and post game interview. Pre game he says he knows nothing of Lilbow and will simply crush him because he's a foreigner, yet post game he admitted to studying him and planning the all in strategies for each game. Players are full of shit and always looking for the #mindgames.
Twisting his words and pitchforking him as a disrespectful player is utter bullshit. He gave his all this year and deserved his spot. The timing wasn't great with DH winter qualifiers just happening, etc. Let's not crucify this young man for a poor choice of words for attention. He's clearly one of, if not THE best foreigner we have. Let's calm down and wish him well in the future.
It's called smack talking, for entertainment purposes. Parting and sOs did the same with sOs expressing his real opinion in the winners interview just like Life did.
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy.
No you're missing the point. And it's really not the right time to complain about WCS level, because another WCS champion eliminated a two times SSL finalist and the last one gave a run for his money to a GSL champion ; hell, he would even have probably eliminated him if he didn't change that rally point on Coda.
Not really important, but i don't think Polt changed the rally point at all, the pathign just works out that way there
With almost everyone here jumping at Lilbow's throat, allow me to offer my humble thoughts on the matter.
While you guys mostly think Lilbow played unreasonably poorly, I actually disagree. He showed good decision-making, good reaction time & sound mechanics.
Game one came down to Lilbow not accounting for the possibility of Life utilizing his early Extractor (which Lilbow scouted) for pressure. Could Lilbow have gone MSC before tech? Could he have checked if his backrocks were being destroyed? Of course, he could have. Have better and more accomplished players than Lilbow taken a risk and lost sillily? Aye, happens all the time.
Game two, Lilbow misread Life's 13|12 opening and made a fool out of himself scouting for a proxy Hatch which would not make sense for Life to make and which Life would not be able to afford at the time Lilbow scouted for it. Have better and more accomplished players than Lilbow displayed as poor game sense and misread timings resulting in a clowny loss? Aye, that's been known to happen.
Game three, disregarding Lilbow's choice to add a 5th Gateway instead of securing his 2nd Nexus, he played well. Not much else to add.
As for his tweets about not practising HotS and focusing on Legacy of the Void, nothing seems controversial. It's his choice and no-one forces you to cheer for him.
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
The shame is that a WCS champion cant hold simple cheeses while most pro gamers in korea getting almost nothing. Thats the real tragedy.
No you're missing the point. And it's really not the right time to complain about WCS level, because another WCS champion eliminated a two times SSL finalist and the last one gave a run for his money to a GSL champion ; hell, he would even have probably eliminated him if he didn't change that rally point on Coda.
Not really important, but i don't think Polt changed the rally point at all, the pathign just works out that way there
ah yeah you must be right, I was checking indeed, the rally point was in Rain's base.
As I see it, Lilbow got EXACTLY what he worked for. I really, really hope he gets to fly high again in LOTV but that attitude was a trainwreck. I understand his decision to focus on the future, but it was simply disrespectful to say and put it in the way he did even BEFORE the match begun. If he accepted his loss and at least tried (or said he tried), he wouldn't be getting all this hate. Instead he opted to say the matches looked bad because "Life wanted them to". No, Life said he studied Lilbow's game and knew he had a greedy early game and went on to punish him for that. Once he saw Lilbow failed to respond, he did it on the other games aswell and we got what we got.
One point I forgot to mention: Most professional SC2 players (let alone the thousands of semi-pros and amateurs) would die for a chance to play a Bo5 against someone like Life.
It's unfortunate that too many so-called "professionals" don't understand that being graceful is an important part of actually being "professional".
To many quitters in the foreigner scene its as simple as that. Being the best you can be is one thing but to go to the ultimate tournament and not even practice for it is pretty sad. Whats he saving up for in LoTV a head start, because the same players in the last 16 will be right there next year guaranteed.
I hate region locking with a passion and this is the reason why. He basically got a free pass into to the last 16 and didnt even bother to try. I wonder what Hyun is thinking as he was the one whom basically just missed out?
Heres hoping region locking is completely removed next year
Lol, what a ridiculous mindset. Glad I never cheered for him, else I'd be mad. Honestly, I thought he'd put up a fight, but if he doesn't even try ... That pretty much deserves punishment. If he is a good player I'm sure being a few weeks behind on LotV isn't going to kill him.
On November 03 2015 02:53 RevTiberius wrote: One point I forgot to mention: Most professional SC2 players (let alone the thousands of semi-pros and amateurs) would die for a chance to play a Bo5 against someone like Life.
It's unfortunate that too many so-called "professionals" don't understand that being graceful is an important part of actually being "professional".
I want to react on that point. I picked up video games at 28. I work as a math teacher, I have a family. I can play maybe 8 hours a week. And the worst thing, I have no talent. I'll always be ridiculously bad at this game.
Still, I sometimes fantasize about being good and being able to play on those stages with that kind of players. It's indeed something I would give up a lot for. To see Lilbow disdainfully shit on that lifetime opportunity was depressing. I felt insulted. If other people don't take the matter as seriously and think I'm being over the top, that's fine. But that's, very sincerely, the way I felt.
Before his match against Life, Lilbow said: To prepare for blizzcon I almost didn't practice at all. Because it's not that I don't take this match seriously, but I think preparing the transition to LotV is more important because I could practice one month to maybe only lose in one best of five
Well... Good luck playing the game at all then.
He qualified to DH on the 24th, I wonder how many of those two games took place after that...
My point is, not many would have given Polt or Hydra a chance against Rain and Dream. but they didn't stop trying because "I'm not going to win anyway and I want to get ahead in LotV", Again I point out Hydra WON, Polt came within a map of beating Rain, Lilbow embarrassed himself, embarrassed every foreign player who dreams of making it to Blizzcon and then went on social media and did the equivalent of fucking SMILING about it. That's the difference. As I said, it's not a Korean v Foreigner thing, it's a respect thing, Polt and Hydra showed respect, Lilbow somehow showed less than zero.
...I'm totally with you on this: Lilbow's lack of professionalism was embarassing to say the least, second only to NaNiwa's probe rush and tied with Soulkey attitude of some months ago... the excuse immediatly given was even worse: we're not talking here of missing a major invite tournament for training lotv (understandable), it's WCS Global Finals that, in a "romantic way", can easily be seen as the main goal, the dream, of every (pro)player of Starcraft: all the top players of the world sweated their asses off to be there and Lilbow says it's not enough for him to at least give it a try? how modest... ...ofc, I admit that the mountain to climb was ultra-hard (Life is Life no way to easy the way) and he'd probably lost 3-0 the same but this night I saw respect and an amount of training I've rarely seen before from all the players except from this french guy... it doesn't seem to me that Hydra and Polt had easier opponents than Lilbow but they worked super hard and Hydra even managed to beat Dream (not exactly a bad terran right?)... even in the fast 3 games of INnoVation or Rogue you could see how much they trained for this single event and even in the 3 games of ByuL or Zest you surely cannot miss their struggle to fight... ...being in the top 16 of 2015 and going to Blizzcon to act like Lilbow did is, imho, really disrespectful: I never really liked him for his style of play but I never imagined he could be a player with this bad attitude...
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
You misunderstand.
Nobody blames or shits on Lilbow for losing to Life. That was expected.
It was his statements about not even caring about the tournament that started the shitstorm. Playing 2 games of HOTS the last 3 months to 'prepare' for the single biggest stage he might ever play on.
Ten minutes before Lilbow-Life, Inno said in his interview that he didn't prepare a lot for Blizzcon. Were you offended? Ten minutes after Lilbow-Life, Rain lost a warp prism in a way that displays he's been playing a lot of LotV. Were you offended?
Do we really need this much focus on this topic, ok he lost, ok maybe he made some stupid comments afterward, ok he should have prepped some better builds but cmon guys lets not be so negative. In the vast scheme of things its not a big deal, even if he showed "respect" it would not have made a difference. It certainly was poor build choice and poor prep by lilbow + bad PR afterward but can we just move on already?
Not practicing for blizzcon as the only foreigner in blizzcon is his choice but he could have survived this shitstorm by simply saying he could not practice well -even though he tried his best- because the ladder was not populated with enough talent. The expectations on him were not really high, even Zest got shat on in ro16. I hope all that lotv training helps and we see solid results after beta from him.
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
You misunderstand.
Nobody blames or shits on Lilbow for losing to Life. That was expected.
It was his statements about not even caring about the tournament that started the shitstorm. Playing 2 games of HOTS the last 3 months to 'prepare' for the single biggest stage he might ever play on.
Ten minutes before Lilbow-Life, Inno said in his interview that he didn't prepare a lot for Blizzcon. Were you offended? Ten minutes after Lilbow-Life, Rain lost a warp prism in a way that displays he's been playing a lot of LotV. Were you offended?
Did you watch Innovation play those games? Somehow I suspect Innovation's standard for "not a lot" is a whole lot more than Lilbow.
On November 03 2015 03:17 SlammerIV wrote: Do we really need this much focus on this topic, ok he lost, ok maybe he made some stupid comments afterward, ok he should have prepped some better builds but cmon guys lets not be so negative. In the vast scheme of things its not a big deal, even if he showed "respect" it would not have made a difference. It certainly was poor build choice and poor prep by lilbow + bad PR afterward but can we just move on already?
Forgive me for singling you out but it's posts like this that just fucking infuriate me. Let me state first as everyone knows I don't think Lilbow deserved his place but he qualified under the system given. Yesterday Lilbow took a massive dump on the game, embarrassed himself and embarrassed every person who dreamt of seeing a foreign hope at Blizzcon, went on social media and basically smiled about it and people STILL defend him because "It wouldn't have mattered anyway".
Maybe that's true, maybe if he practiced HotS more Life still cheeses him out and 3-0's him.....or MAYBE he pulls a Polt and wins a couple of maps and makes Life sweat, or MAYBE somehow, someway he pulls a Hydra and wins. We'll never know because he couldn't be bothered to even fucking TRY. And people say "Move on" because "it's not a big deal", it's statements like that that are the reason this scene is fucked as it is, because people just don't treat people pissing on the biggest tournament of the year as a big deal or worse support the guy because he might have a chance at Dreamhack.
Again I'm sorry for singling you out for the basis of my rant, but posts like that piss me off
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
You misunderstand.
Nobody blames or shits on Lilbow for losing to Life. That was expected.
It was his statements about not even caring about the tournament that started the shitstorm. Playing 2 games of HOTS the last 3 months to 'prepare' for the single biggest stage he might ever play on.
Ten minutes before Lilbow-Life, Inno said in his interview that he didn't prepare a lot for Blizzcon. Were you offended? Ten minutes after Lilbow-Life, Rain lost a warp prism in a way that displays he's been playing a lot of LotV. Were you offended?
Did you watch Innovation play those games? Somehow I suspect Innovation's standard for "not a lot" is a whole lot more than Lilbow.
Of course. Innovation looked great. But andeh was telling me that the problem wasn't that he lost to Life and looked bad, it was his attitude. This is obviously not true, otherwise Innovation saying what he said in his winner interview would have offended him as well.
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
You misunderstand.
Nobody blames or shits on Lilbow for losing to Life. That was expected.
It was his statements about not even caring about the tournament that started the shitstorm. Playing 2 games of HOTS the last 3 months to 'prepare' for the single biggest stage he might ever play on.
Ten minutes before Lilbow-Life, Inno said in his interview that he didn't prepare a lot for Blizzcon. Were you offended? Ten minutes after Lilbow-Life, Rain lost a warp prism in a way that displays he's been playing a lot of LotV. Were you offended?
Did you watch Innovation play those games? Somehow I suspect Innovation's standard for "not a lot" is a whole lot more than Lilbow.
Of course. Innovation looked great. But andeh was telling me that the problem wasn't that he lost to Life and looked bad, it was his attitude. This is obviously not true, otherwise Innovation saying what he said in his winner interview would have offended him as well.
On November 03 2015 02:34 Nebuchad wrote: This isn't an honest controversy. People couldn't wait to shit on Lilbow for performing badly against Life, as we all expected him to do. Since he made that statement (which was ill-advised, granted), these people jumped on it. I guess they are entitled to do it. But we shouldn't pretend the controversy happened in any kind of legitimate context.
Let's take what happened in the thread afterwards: - He should have given up his spot to someone who deserved it. How does that work? He made the WCS points. He deserved the spot. - It was shameful. How? He got cheesed by a better player and he lost. Where's the shame? This happened to pretty much everyone. Life lings beat herO twice in a row not so long ago, if you remember. - We don't blame his for the game but for his attitude. Really? So don't say the games were shameful as if that was an argument. But even if that were true and that was really the problem you had, you act as if it's rare that people look bad on twitter after a loss. It has happened a million times, and everyone is still here.
This thread is a teacup.
You misunderstand.
Nobody blames or shits on Lilbow for losing to Life. That was expected.
It was his statements about not even caring about the tournament that started the shitstorm. Playing 2 games of HOTS the last 3 months to 'prepare' for the single biggest stage he might ever play on.
Ten minutes before Lilbow-Life, Inno said in his interview that he didn't prepare a lot for Blizzcon. Were you offended? Ten minutes after Lilbow-Life, Rain lost a warp prism in a way that displays he's been playing a lot of LotV. Were you offended?
Did you watch Innovation play those games? Somehow I suspect Innovation's standard for "not a lot" is a whole lot more than Lilbow.
Of course. Innovation looked great. But andeh was telling me that the problem wasn't that he lost to Life and looked bad, it was his attitude. This is obviously not true, otherwise Innovation saying what he said in his winner interview would have offended him as well.
Saying "I didn't prepare a lot" after thrashing a world class opponent after a match could either be bad manner or modesty or mind games or just not knowing what's appropriate to say other than giving a generic answer, that's pretty different from saying it before you play the set for a recorded segment then going on twitter after the fact to spout the same nonsense.
I mean this has all happened before. The last WoL tournament was GSL where the top 8 was Innovation, Symbol, Curious, Parting, Taeja, Soulkey, MC and Roro.
They all dropped down in results because the rest of the world had moved on to HotS and then......
Oh wait nevermind, Innovation became the best Terran in the world, Symbol got two ro8s in Korean lans and top 4 at HSC, Curious got a top 4 at IEM NY beating sOs and Flash (who was in good form at the time), Parting became one of the best Protoss, Taeja continued being stronger than ever, Soulkey became the best Zerg, MC got WCS EU 2nd place twice and Roro got two ro8s in Korean/WCS Final leagues.
Nope, guess there isnt any historical evidence of results downsliding because the competition had a few more months of practice.
I'm wondering if the backlash would have been the same if one of the Korean players claimed this and then won their match.
I think this is more of a case of foreign player fans projecting their insecurities and lofty expectations onto their only hope, and taking his decision far too personally.
Player who qualified by winning a charity mickey mouse tournament doesn't practice because he knows he has zero chance. Believes he can get ahead by switching to the expansion, like all the foreigners did back at the end of WoL, only to get demolished by Koreans who came to IEM having played a handful of HotS games. Remember Grubby and all the other foreigners who had switched to completely HotS months before it came out, because the game was going to be so much better and they, having had a head start compared to Koreans, were going to be relevant and competitive? Yeah...
this isn't worth talking about. apathy is not the easy way out in this case, it's being angry with him as someone who has nothing to do with him. if you're a fan though, i can understand.
Lilibow I'm sure practices, he was just humiliated by Life 3 games in a row and was obviously pissed off and wanted a cop out, he's still a human and no human likes to be made a fool of.
On November 03 2015 03:39 stuchiu wrote: I mean this has all happened before. The last WoL tournament was GSL where the top 8 was Innovation, Symbol, Curious, Parting, Taeja, Soulkey, MC and Roro.
They all dropped down in results because the rest of the world had moved on to HotS and then......
Oh wait nevermind, Innovation became the best Terran in the world, Symbol got two ro8s in Korean lans and top 4 at HSC, Curious got a top 4 at IEM NY beating sOs and Flash (who was in good form at the time), Parting became one of the best Protoss, Taeja continued being stronger than ever, Soulkey became the best Zerg, MC got WCS EU 2nd place twice and Roro got two ro8s in Korean/WCS Final leagues.
Nope, guess there isnt any historical evidence of results downsliding because the competition had a few more months of practice.
There was an actual DH qualifier in the beta. I can't see any of the names of the Blizzcon participant's besides Lilbow's in the section "qualified". Somehow there is an immidiate payoff for playing LotV before the others here that you kind of don't mention, no?
On November 03 2015 03:39 stuchiu wrote: I mean this has all happened before. The last WoL tournament was GSL where the top 8 was Innovation, Symbol, Curious, Parting, Taeja, Soulkey, MC and Roro.
They all dropped down in results because the rest of the world had moved on to HotS and then......
Oh wait nevermind, Innovation became the best Terran in the world, Symbol got two ro8s in Korean lans and top 4 at HSC, Curious got a top 4 at IEM NY beating sOs and Flash (who was in good form at the time), Parting became one of the best Protoss, Taeja continued being stronger than ever, Soulkey became the best Zerg, MC got WCS EU 2nd place twice and Roro got two ro8s in Korean/WCS Final leagues.
Nope, guess there isnt any historical evidence of results downsliding because the competition had a few more months of practice.
There was an actual DH qualifier in the beta. I can't see any of the names of the Blizzcon participant's besides Lilbow's in the section "qualified". Somehow there is an immidiate payoff for playing LotV before the others here that you kind of don't mention, no?
All 15 other participants wouldn't have been allowed to play in the DH qualifiers because they're Koreans anyway. Plus the payoff for winning at Blizzcon has the potential to be bigger.
On November 03 2015 03:27 KrOeastbound wrote: Yeah it was a poor performance. At least Hydra won and Polt put up a decent fight so the WCS scene doesn't look too shabby.
I'm afraid this is going to haunt him for a while either way.
And someone really should stop him tweeting about it.
Edit: Should've been a reply to CrimeCat's post. Weird
On November 03 2015 03:41 sitromit wrote: Storm in a teacup.
Player who qualified by winning a charity mickey mouse tournament doesn't practice because he knows he has zero chance. Believes he can get ahead by switching to the expansion, like all the foreigners did back at the end of WoL, only to get demolished by Koreans who came to IEM having played a handful of HotS games. Remember Grubby and all the other foreigners who had switched to completely HotS months before it came out, because the game was going to be so much better and they, having had a head start compared to Koreans, were going to be relevant and competitive? Yeah...
How dare you question the legitimacy of the qualification process for BlizzCon?! All sixteen players qualified because no-one else in the entire world could challenge their well earned spots. Are you saying Lilbow was less of a legitimate contender for winning BlizzCon than say soO? Don't be ridiculous, please.
On November 03 2015 03:39 stuchiu wrote: I mean this has all happened before. The last WoL tournament was GSL where the top 8 was Innovation, Symbol, Curious, Parting, Taeja, Soulkey, MC and Roro.
They all dropped down in results because the rest of the world had moved on to HotS and then......
Oh wait nevermind, Innovation became the best Terran in the world, Symbol got two ro8s in Korean lans and top 4 at HSC, Curious got a top 4 at IEM NY beating sOs and Flash (who was in good form at the time), Parting became one of the best Protoss, Taeja continued being stronger than ever, Soulkey became the best Zerg, MC got WCS EU 2nd place twice and Roro got two ro8s in Korean/WCS Final leagues.
Nope, guess there isnt any historical evidence of results downsliding because the competition had a few more months of practice.
There was an actual DH qualifier in the beta. I can't see any of the names of the Blizzcon participant's besides Lilbow's in the section "qualified". Somehow there is an immidiate payoff for playing LotV before the others here that you kind of don't mention, no?
All 15 other participants wouldn't have been allowed to play in the DH qualifiers because they're Koreans anyway.
Oh yeah, true. Still, Lilbow is there. And he wouldn't be otherwise, except for hoping to catch that one wild card for Westerners they give away.
On November 03 2015 03:39 Dodgin wrote: I'm wondering if the backlash would have been the same if one of the Korean players claimed this and then won their match.
I think this is more of a case of foreign player fans projecting their insecurities and lofty expectations onto their only hope, and taking his decision far too personally.
I'd bet the reactions from the Korean community would be the exact same or if anything much harsher. I won't be surprised if a player gets kicked out of a team or get banned from certain tournaments for showing such poor attitude.
On November 03 2015 03:39 stuchiu wrote: I mean this has all happened before. The last WoL tournament was GSL where the top 8 was Innovation, Symbol, Curious, Parting, Taeja, Soulkey, MC and Roro.
They all dropped down in results because the rest of the world had moved on to HotS and then......
Oh wait nevermind, Innovation became the best Terran in the world, Symbol got two ro8s in Korean lans and top 4 at HSC, Curious got a top 4 at IEM NY beating sOs and Flash (who was in good form at the time), Parting became one of the best Protoss, Taeja continued being stronger than ever, Soulkey became the best Zerg, MC got WCS EU 2nd place twice and Roro got two ro8s in Korean/WCS Final leagues.
Nope, guess there isnt any historical evidence of results downsliding because the competition had a few more months of practice.
There was an actual DH qualifier in the beta. I can't see any of the names of the Blizzcon participant's besides Lilbow's in the section "qualified". Somehow there is an immidiate payoff for playing LotV before the others here that you kind of don't mention, no?
All 15 other participants wouldn't have been allowed to play in the DH qualifiers because they're Koreans anyway.
Oh yeah, true. Still, Lilbow is there. And he wouldn't be otherwise, except for hoping to catch that one wild card for Westerners they give away.
I too would give up on Blizzcon in order to qualify for a Dreamhack. PRIORITIES!
As Poisonskin wrote so eloquently in the thread for Ro 16: I can't believe I stayed up so late on a work night to watch somebody who didn't even practice for the biggest tournament of his life.
And then same somebody goes on and says people who criticize his unprofessionalism are "Roaches".
On November 03 2015 03:27 KrOeastbound wrote: Yeah it was a poor performance. At least Hydra won and Polt put up a decent fight so the WCS scene doesn't look too shabby.
I'm afraid this is going to haunt him for a while either way.
If safe means scouting and reacting, then yes, he really should. This has nothing to do with the expansion at hand. Going for blind builds and expecting Life to play "honorably" is nothing but indifference.
Just wondering, would Lilbow have checked the the back of Moonlight Madness in LotV?
sucks to be him. He should know better, LotV training won't pay ouf since Karmas a bitch. And Blizzard will roll out a pretty different multiplayer from the last beta version on release. Kinda looked like he wasn't the only one already prepping for LotV though >.<
I would have been more happy to know that Life is a god who can cheese out top foreigners by 6 pooling in blizzcon than have anti-climatic storyline of a foreigner who just didn't practice get destroyed.
i don't personally care about lilbow (just a foreigner and a protoss player, says a lot really), but the guy did what none of the other drips did and won wcs. he went through a lot of good players.
to say that he was unprepared for the match is a stretch, since he had probably prepared some shit. we didn't see it because he got all-in'd three times in a row.
it's bad foresight on his part, but that's how it rolls. were his builds unsafe? maybe, maybe that's all he knew. maybe he figured that life would take him seriously and he'd get at least one game going the way he wanted. we'll never know and frankly who gives a shit.
foreigners are bad, so why not blame all foreigners for being bad instead of laying the blame on the ONE SINGLE foreigner who managed to make it, just because he didn't live up to your expectations versus one of the favorites to take the entire damn thing.
On November 03 2015 03:41 sitromit wrote: Storm in a teacup.
Player who qualified by winning a charity mickey mouse tournament doesn't practice because he knows he has zero chance. Believes he can get ahead by switching to the expansion, like all the foreigners did back at the end of WoL, only to get demolished by Koreans who came to IEM having played a handful of HotS games. Remember Grubby and all the other foreigners who had switched to completely HotS months before it came out, because the game was going to be so much better and they, having had a head start compared to Koreans, were going to be relevant and competitive? Yeah...
How dare you question the legitimacy of the qualification process for BlizzCon?! All sixteen players qualified because no-one else in the entire world could challenge their well earned spots. Are you saying Lilbow was less of a legitimate contender for winning BlizzCon than say soO? Don't be ridiculous, please.
Put soO in the WCS system and he would have made it lol
On November 03 2015 03:55 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: As Poisonskin wrote so eloquently in the thread for Ro 16: I can't believe I stayed up so late on a work night to watch somebody who didn't even practice for the biggest tournament of his life.
And then same somebody then goes on and says people who criticize his unprofessionalism are "Roaches".
Unbelievable.
And his Facebook post where he said he predicted Life would cheese, he could have beaten Life if he practiced, but decided LotV was more important.
He also lied about not being able to practice (ya, I'll take TLO's word over his any day of the week).
On November 03 2015 04:12 Incognoto wrote: meh i'm getting annoyed at this thread
i don't personally care about lilbow (just a foreigner and a protoss player, says a lot really), but the guy did what none of the other drips did and won wcs. he went through a lot of good players.
to say that he was unprepared for the match is a stretch, since he had probably prepared some shit. we didn't see it because he got all-in'd three times in a row.
it's bad foresight on his part, but that's how it rolls. were his builds unsafe? maybe, maybe that's all he knew. maybe he figured that life would take him seriously and he'd get at least one game going the way he wanted. we'll never know and frankly who gives a shit.
foreigners are bad, so why not blame all foreigners for being bad instead of laying the blame on the ONE SINGLE foreigner who managed to make it, just because he didn't live up to your expectations versus one of the favorites to take the entire damn thing.
lol, calm yourselves
it's often said already that the games aren't the problem but his unprofessional attitude.
On November 03 2015 04:12 Incognoto wrote: meh i'm getting annoyed at this thread
i don't personally care about lilbow (just a foreigner and a protoss player, says a lot really), but the guy did what none of the other drips did and won wcs. he went through a lot of good players.
to say that he was unprepared for the match is a stretch, since he had probably prepared some shit. we didn't see it because he got all-in'd three times in a row.
it's bad foresight on his part, but that's how it rolls. were his builds unsafe? maybe, maybe that's all he knew. maybe he figured that life would take him seriously and he'd get at least one game going the way he wanted. we'll never know and frankly who gives a shit.
foreigners are bad, so why not blame all foreigners for being bad instead of laying the blame on the ONE SINGLE foreigner who managed to make it, just because he didn't live up to your expectations versus one of the favorites to take the entire damn thing.
lol, calm yourselves
it's often said already that the games aren't the problem but his unprofessional attitude.
It's often said but it's not true. If he had lost three macro games, there would be no thread. If he had cheesed three times and Life had defended, there would be no thread. Inno said that he didn't prepare, but he looked good in his game, so nobody would claim that he was disrespectful for saying it.
Overall I think he just had an insanely awkward communication. I never liked the guy nor his style, and as I said before this doesn't help, but there was no malice. Just insane awkwardness and stupidity. I hope he learns his lesson, shuts his twitter down for some days and then keeps his nose to the grindstone unless LotV dies out.
Oh my. Someone didn't make the exact same choices I imagine I would have made in his shoes. Oh my. Someone did a thing competing in a video game I feel is disrespectful and unprofessional. Better announce to the world that I lost all respect for Lilbow and I will no longer cheer for him!
On November 03 2015 04:12 Incognoto wrote: meh i'm getting annoyed at this thread
i don't personally care about lilbow (just a foreigner and a protoss player, says a lot really), but the guy did what none of the other drips did and won wcs. he went through a lot of good players.
to say that he was unprepared for the match is a stretch, since he had probably prepared some shit. we didn't see it because he got all-in'd three times in a row.
it's bad foresight on his part, but that's how it rolls. were his builds unsafe? maybe, maybe that's all he knew. maybe he figured that life would take him seriously and he'd get at least one game going the way he wanted. we'll never know and frankly who gives a shit.
foreigners are bad, so why not blame all foreigners for being bad instead of laying the blame on the ONE SINGLE foreigner who managed to make it, just because he didn't live up to your expectations versus one of the favorites to take the entire damn thing.
lol, calm yourselves
it's often said already that the games aren't the problem but his unprofessional attitude.
Yeah, gamewise it was pretty much the same as Naniwa vs. Leenock once upon a time. Nani did receive his share of shit though IIRC.
On November 03 2015 04:12 Incognoto wrote: meh i'm getting annoyed at this thread
i don't personally care about lilbow (just a foreigner and a protoss player, says a lot really), but the guy did what none of the other drips did and won wcs. he went through a lot of good players.
to say that he was unprepared for the match is a stretch, since he had probably prepared some shit. we didn't see it because he got all-in'd three times in a row.
it's bad foresight on his part, but that's how it rolls. were his builds unsafe? maybe, maybe that's all he knew. maybe he figured that life would take him seriously and he'd get at least one game going the way he wanted. we'll never know and frankly who gives a shit.
foreigners are bad, so why not blame all foreigners for being bad instead of laying the blame on the ONE SINGLE foreigner who managed to make it, just because he didn't live up to your expectations versus one of the favorites to take the entire damn thing.
lol, calm yourselves
it's often said already that the games aren't the problem but his unprofessional attitude.
It's often said but it's not true. If he had lost three macro games, there would be no thread. If he had cheesed three times and Life had defended, there would be no thread. Inno said that he didn't prepare, but he looked good in his game, so nobody would claim that he was disrespectful for saying it.
INnoVation said he didn't practice much. But that's to HIS standard. We can't even say what constitutes much practice for him. He'd probably play 30 hours a week and say it wasn't much.
On November 03 2015 04:12 Incognoto wrote: meh i'm getting annoyed at this thread
i don't personally care about lilbow (just a foreigner and a protoss player, says a lot really), but the guy did what none of the other drips did and won wcs. he went through a lot of good players.
to say that he was unprepared for the match is a stretch, since he had probably prepared some shit. we didn't see it because he got all-in'd three times in a row.
it's bad foresight on his part, but that's how it rolls. were his builds unsafe? maybe, maybe that's all he knew. maybe he figured that life would take him seriously and he'd get at least one game going the way he wanted. we'll never know and frankly who gives a shit.
foreigners are bad, so why not blame all foreigners for being bad instead of laying the blame on the ONE SINGLE foreigner who managed to make it, just because he didn't live up to your expectations versus one of the favorites to take the entire damn thing.
lol, calm yourselves
I agree. Lilbow fucked up but the rage is getting excessive.
On November 03 2015 04:12 Incognoto wrote: meh i'm getting annoyed at this thread
i don't personally care about lilbow (just a foreigner and a protoss player, says a lot really), but the guy did what none of the other drips did and won wcs. he went through a lot of good players.
to say that he was unprepared for the match is a stretch, since he had probably prepared some shit. we didn't see it because he got all-in'd three times in a row.
it's bad foresight on his part, but that's how it rolls. were his builds unsafe? maybe, maybe that's all he knew. maybe he figured that life would take him seriously and he'd get at least one game going the way he wanted. we'll never know and frankly who gives a shit.
foreigners are bad, so why not blame all foreigners for being bad instead of laying the blame on the ONE SINGLE foreigner who managed to make it, just because he didn't live up to your expectations versus one of the favorites to take the entire damn thing.
lol, calm yourselves
it's often said already that the games aren't the problem but his unprofessional attitude.
It's often said but it's not true. If he had lost three macro games, there would be no thread. If he had cheesed three times and Life had defended, there would be no thread. Inno said that he didn't prepare, but he looked good in his game, so nobody would claim that he was disrespectful for saying it.
INnoVation said he didn't practice much. But that's to HIS standard. We can't even say what constitutes much practice for him. He'd probably play 30 hours a week and say it wasn't much.
So? He could have done more to prepare, he could have practiced "much" to HIS standard, but he didn't. I guess he didn't give it his all then. Do you feel "disrespected" as a viewer? Of course not.
On November 03 2015 04:12 Incognoto wrote: meh i'm getting annoyed at this thread
i don't personally care about lilbow (just a foreigner and a protoss player, says a lot really), but the guy did what none of the other drips did and won wcs. he went through a lot of good players.
to say that he was unprepared for the match is a stretch, since he had probably prepared some shit. we didn't see it because he got all-in'd three times in a row.
it's bad foresight on his part, but that's how it rolls. were his builds unsafe? maybe, maybe that's all he knew. maybe he figured that life would take him seriously and he'd get at least one game going the way he wanted. we'll never know and frankly who gives a shit.
foreigners are bad, so why not blame all foreigners for being bad instead of laying the blame on the ONE SINGLE foreigner who managed to make it, just because he didn't live up to your expectations versus one of the favorites to take the entire damn thing.
lol, calm yourselves
it's often said already that the games aren't the problem but his unprofessional attitude.
It's often said but it's not true. If he had lost three macro games, there would be no thread. If he had cheesed three times and Life had defended, there would be no thread. Inno said that he didn't prepare, but he looked good in his game, so nobody would claim that he was disrespectful for saying it.
INnoVation said he didn't practice much. But that's to HIS standard. We can't even say what constitutes much practice for him. He'd probably play 30 hours a week and say it wasn't much.
So? He could have done more to prepare, he could have practiced "much" to HIS standard, but he didn't. I guess he didn't give it his all then. Do you feel "disrespected" as a viewer? Of course not.
First off, INnoVation won, so clearly his practice was on point enough.
Secondly, he isn't on Twitter spouting unprofessional nonsense.
On November 03 2015 04:12 Incognoto wrote: meh i'm getting annoyed at this thread
i don't personally care about lilbow (just a foreigner and a protoss player, says a lot really), but the guy did what none of the other drips did and won wcs. he went through a lot of good players.
to say that he was unprepared for the match is a stretch, since he had probably prepared some shit. we didn't see it because he got all-in'd three times in a row.
it's bad foresight on his part, but that's how it rolls. were his builds unsafe? maybe, maybe that's all he knew. maybe he figured that life would take him seriously and he'd get at least one game going the way he wanted. we'll never know and frankly who gives a shit.
foreigners are bad, so why not blame all foreigners for being bad instead of laying the blame on the ONE SINGLE foreigner who managed to make it, just because he didn't live up to your expectations versus one of the favorites to take the entire damn thing.
lol, calm yourselves
I agree. Lilbow fucked up but the rage is getting excessive.
now when lilbow is going to play he's going to attract more viewers
starcraft 2 is gonna be more alive than ever
lilbow acting for the good of the game, taking the throne of the bad cop
On November 03 2015 04:12 Incognoto wrote: meh i'm getting annoyed at this thread
i don't personally care about lilbow (just a foreigner and a protoss player, says a lot really), but the guy did what none of the other drips did and won wcs. he went through a lot of good players.
to say that he was unprepared for the match is a stretch, since he had probably prepared some shit. we didn't see it because he got all-in'd three times in a row.
it's bad foresight on his part, but that's how it rolls. were his builds unsafe? maybe, maybe that's all he knew. maybe he figured that life would take him seriously and he'd get at least one game going the way he wanted. we'll never know and frankly who gives a shit.
foreigners are bad, so why not blame all foreigners for being bad instead of laying the blame on the ONE SINGLE foreigner who managed to make it, just because he didn't live up to your expectations versus one of the favorites to take the entire damn thing.
lol, calm yourselves
it's often said already that the games aren't the problem but his unprofessional attitude.
It's often said but it's not true. If he had lost three macro games, there would be no thread. If he had cheesed three times and Life had defended, there would be no thread. Inno said that he didn't prepare, but he looked good in his game, so nobody would claim that he was disrespectful for saying it.
INnoVation said he didn't practice much. But that's to HIS standard. We can't even say what constitutes much practice for him. He'd probably play 30 hours a week and say it wasn't much.
So? He could have done more to prepare, he could have practiced "much" to HIS standard, but he didn't. I guess he didn't give it his all then. Do you feel "disrespected" as a viewer? Of course not.
When did he even say this? Do you mean his "after flying i had a little break" ?
But in the end it doesn't matter, Innovation is the best player in the world right now, if he says he didn't practice much he still will be more than competetive. Lilbow on the other hand is the underdog going into blizzcon, BUT he is also the foreign hope for a lot of people who were excited about him (as foreigner) being there. Saying he didn't give a shit is like a slap in the face for those people. Personally i don't care for him because i always thought he is an overhyped player, but i can see why people are upset.
Lilbow's attitude was very disappointing and it is definitely the main reason, why people are angry at him. But to say that the games have no part in this, would be simply not true.
When you go up against life, it is a no brainer to prepare for ling cheese plays. Especially when you have less exposure to them and their specific timings because you played quite a bit of LotV. Not checking your backdoor rocks on Moonlight Madness in a match of this importance against Life is not a reasonable risk to take. Still, maybe one could excuse this failure, if it wasn't for the other games.
But above all, Lilbow's excuses make no sense because you don't need very skilled practice partners to make sure that you are prepared against these kinds of strategies. He could have trained them with someone and he would have laugehd at Life's attempt to get these cheap wins. What's so disappointing is that Life's plays didn't surprise anyone but Lilbow. These games could have been easy wins. I could care less if he played too cautiously and lost a macro game as a result. Going down this easily against predictable cheese is really bad. And it is also embarrassing because Lilbow apparently couldn't be bothered to prepare for these basic things.
On November 03 2015 03:39 Dodgin wrote: I'm wondering if the backlash would have been the same if one of the Korean players claimed this and then won their match.
I think this is more of a case of foreign player fans projecting their insecurities and lofty expectations onto their only hope, and taking his decision far too personally.
On November 03 2015 04:21 Nebuchad wrote: It's often said but it's not true. If he had lost three macro games, there would be no thread. If he had cheesed three times and Life had defended, there would be no thread. Inno said that he didn't prepare, but he looked good in his game, so nobody would claim that he was disrespectful for saying it.
The difference is that when a Korean says they didn't practice, or didn't prepare much... we have absolutely no reason to believe them. Korean culture values both work ethic and modesty, two factors that make such statements extremely suspect. Case in point: Life says he doesn't prepare for Lilbow, then the match is over and Life admits to watching lots of Lilbow replays. (Life. Prepared for Lilbow.)
When Lilbow says it... and then sticks to the same story after the game is over... and other pros/commentators believe him completely... and TLO calls him out on the excuses...
Yeah, those are no longer comparable situations.
Lots of Koreans had to get fucked by the WCS system just so Lilbow could have a chance to show up in the Ro16, which by any objective global ranking, he did not deserve to. And all it would have taken to prevent a shitstorm, all the community wanted for the sacrifice to appear worthwhile, was for Lilbow to appear gracious and humble at the opportunity he had been charitably given by Blizzard. He appeared as ungracious and as unhumble as it was humanly possible to be, and continues to by saying "I could have beaten Life if I just practiced, it's his fault for cheesing." He shit all over the competition. He shit all over the WCS system that made his successes possible in the first place.
I hope Korean players know how many foreign fans find his behavior deplorable. I would hate for them to think any worse of our standards for competitive play and sportsmanlike behavior.
On November 03 2015 04:12 Incognoto wrote: meh i'm getting annoyed at this thread
i don't personally care about lilbow (just a foreigner and a protoss player, says a lot really), but the guy did what none of the other drips did and won wcs. he went through a lot of good players.
to say that he was unprepared for the match is a stretch, since he had probably prepared some shit. we didn't see it because he got all-in'd three times in a row.
it's bad foresight on his part, but that's how it rolls. were his builds unsafe? maybe, maybe that's all he knew. maybe he figured that life would take him seriously and he'd get at least one game going the way he wanted. we'll never know and frankly who gives a shit.
foreigners are bad, so why not blame all foreigners for being bad instead of laying the blame on the ONE SINGLE foreigner who managed to make it, just because he didn't live up to your expectations versus one of the favorites to take the entire damn thing.
lol, calm yourselves
I agree. Lilbow fucked up but the rage is getting excessive.
now when lilbow is going to play he's going to attract more viewers
starcraft 2 is gonna be more alive than ever
lilbow acting for the good of the game, taking the throne of the bad cop
Nah, for that kind of thing you have to pull a ragequit. Showing up, getting walked over and go sight seeing. Will just make people switch streams the next time you play. After reminding you that you threw the chance of your life away of course, which will be a giant pain in the ass.
Ultimately it was disappointing, but I found it entertaining nonetheless, hearing Life shit talk Lilbow before seeing him walk all over Lilbow.
I feel for the fans that stayed up to watch him, and I really hope that his LotV practice will pay him dividends, because the community will crucify him if he doesn't do well.
On November 03 2015 04:12 Incognoto wrote: meh i'm getting annoyed at this thread
i don't personally care about lilbow (just a foreigner and a protoss player, says a lot really), but the guy did what none of the other drips did and won wcs. he went through a lot of good players.
to say that he was unprepared for the match is a stretch, since he had probably prepared some shit. we didn't see it because he got all-in'd three times in a row.
it's bad foresight on his part, but that's how it rolls. were his builds unsafe? maybe, maybe that's all he knew. maybe he figured that life would take him seriously and he'd get at least one game going the way he wanted. we'll never know and frankly who gives a shit.
foreigners are bad, so why not blame all foreigners for being bad instead of laying the blame on the ONE SINGLE foreigner who managed to make it, just because he didn't live up to your expectations versus one of the favorites to take the entire damn thing.
lol, calm yourselves
it's often said already that the games aren't the problem but his unprofessional attitude.
It's often said but it's not true. If he had lost three macro games, there would be no thread. If he had cheesed three times and Life had defended, there would be no thread. Inno said that he didn't prepare, but he looked good in his game, so nobody would claim that he was disrespectful for saying it.
INnoVation said he didn't practice much. But that's to HIS standard. We can't even say what constitutes much practice for him. He'd probably play 30 hours a week and say it wasn't much.
So? He could have done more to prepare, he could have practiced "much" to HIS standard, but he didn't. I guess he didn't give it his all then. Do you feel "disrespected" as a viewer? Of course not.
the difference is that Innovation was already better than his opponent beforehand
and that his "not so much" probably is only the mandatory 12 hours a day with no extra hours, instead of two games in a month
Viper: IIRC, Chobra asked how he felt about the match given that he's viewed as a favourite to ship it all. Inno said he didn't think it was going to be as easy as everyone claimed, because Zest is good and because he didn't practice a lot.
On November 03 2015 05:08 pure.Wasted wrote: The difference is that when a Korean says they didn't practice, or didn't prepare much... we have absolutely no reason to believe them. Korean culture values both work ethic and modesty, two factors that make such statements extremely suspect.
You can tell an argument started from the conclusion when you read stuff like this. You think Inno said he didn't prepare much before he easily 3-0ed Zest out of "modesty"? Come on...
Also you touch on the problem yourself: you think it's true in the case of Lilbow. Why do you think that? Because the games looked bad. Welcome to the end of the line.
This notion that the games looking bad had nothing to do with why you feel disrespected by a player is kind of ridiculous.
armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
eh come on guys be a little empathetic
it's not like you have to be proud of lilbow or anything but you can just lay off. what about all the other players who lilbow walked over to get where he got? blizzcon is cut-throat, we know that
No, you see, Lilbow didn't act unprofessional at all, playing only 2 games of HOTS in 3 months in preparation, because INnoVation took a little break after his 15 hour flight from South Korea to the USA.
On November 03 2015 05:52 Nebuchad wrote: Viper: IIRC, Chobra asked how he felt about the match given that he's viewed as a favourite to ship it all. Inno said he didn't think it was going to be as easy as everyone claimed, because Zest is good and because he didn't practice a lot.
On November 03 2015 05:08 pure.Wasted wrote: The difference is that when a Korean says they didn't practice, or didn't prepare much... we have absolutely no reason to believe them. Korean culture values both work ethic and modesty, two factors that make such statements extremely suspect.
You can tell an argument started from the conclusion when you read stuff like this. You think Inno said he didn't prepare much before he easily 3-0ed Zest out of "modesty"? Come on...
Also you touch on the problem yourself: you think it's true in the case of Lilbow. Why do you think that? Because the games looked bad. Welcome to the end of the line.
This notion that the games looking bad had nothing to do with why you feel disrespected by a player is kind of ridiculous.
We believe it from Lilbow because he keeps offering his match history as proof that he only played twice in the last month. Not to mention that even when he caught flak for it, he never denied it.
I was very disappointed by lilbow's performance and I think he should've practiced hots instead of lotv. However I don't think he deserves to be hated on. He made his decision and he doesn't owe us anything. It's one thing for TLO to criticize his attitude it's another thing but it's another thing people bashing on him in threads like this or on twitter. I don't think he wanted to go out like this either.
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
eh come on guys be a little empathetic
it's not like you have to be proud of lilbow or anything but you can just lay off. what about all the other players who lilbow walked over to get where he got? blizzcon is cut-throat, we know that
It wasn't really people telling him how to prepare...
i actually agree that lilbows comments were pretty clumsy and ill mannered, but hoooly shit the way people are flipping out, talking about how foreigners are trash and he's the new naniwa... this is the side of sc2 that gets a bad reputation, man
sometimes i think people need to take deep breaths and remember that these are basically kids playing computer games. i'm not saying people shouldn't be expected to behave maturely, but sometimes overreacting to immaturity is immature in itself
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
eh come on guys be a little empathetic
it's not like you have to be proud of lilbow or anything but you can just lay off. what about all the other players who lilbow walked over to get where he got? blizzcon is cut-throat, we know that
It wasn't really people telling him how to prepare...
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
eh come on guys be a little empathetic
it's not like you have to be proud of lilbow or anything but you can just lay off. what about all the other players who lilbow walked over to get where he got? blizzcon is cut-throat, we know that
Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with telling people how they should or should not prepare, but it's a reasonable assumption that players would prepare for a tournament as significant as Blizzcon. However, this controversy doesn't really stem from Lilbow's lack of preparation, it stems from his use of lacking preparation as some kind of excuse, and his complete disregard for competitive integrity. He should have stayed quiet, and none of this would have flared up. He would have been embarrassed by Life, but many have been. This way, he embarrassed himself - seemingly intentionally - and it's a lot harder for people to swallow.
On November 03 2015 06:09 brickrd wrote: this whole thing is pretty hilarious
i actually agree that lilbows comments were pretty clumsy and ill mannered, but hoooly shit the way people are flipping out, talking about how foreigners are trash and he's the new naniwa... this is the side of sc2 that gets a bad reputation, man
sometimes i think people need to take deep breaths and remember that these are basically kids playing computer games. i'm not saying people shouldn't be expected to behave maturely, but sometimes overreacting to immaturity is immature in itself
You know what gives sc2 a bad reputation? People forgiving bullshit like this or saying "He would've lost anyway, it's no big deal"
On November 03 2015 06:09 brickrd wrote: this whole thing is pretty hilarious
i actually agree that lilbows comments were pretty clumsy and ill mannered, but hoooly shit the way people are flipping out, talking about how foreigners are trash and he's the new naniwa... this is the side of sc2 that gets a bad reputation, man
sometimes i think people need to take deep breaths and remember that these are basically kids playing computer games. i'm not saying people shouldn't be expected to behave maturely, but sometimes overreacting to immaturity is immature in itself
You know what gives sc2 a bad reputation? People forgiving bullshit like this or saying "He would've lost anyway, it's no big deal"
you realize there's a middle area between saying he did nothing wrong and saying he's a plague on the scene and human dirt? i'm just saying measured reactions, man. if you actually care for someone to learn from their mistakes and keep putting their energy into the game then you can't just publicly incinerate them. we're all just people
to each his own opinion, but i think drama mongering makes sc2 look much worse than "a young player did something stupid." like young athletes in physical sports don't say stupid crap? like you or i didn't say stupid crap at the same age?
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
eh come on guys be a little empathetic
it's not like you have to be proud of lilbow or anything but you can just lay off. what about all the other players who lilbow walked over to get where he got? blizzcon is cut-throat, we know that
Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with telling people how they should or should not prepare, but it's a reasonable assumption that players would prepare for a tournament as significant as Blizzcon. However, this controversy doesn't really stem from Lilbow's lack of preparation, it stems from his use of lacking preparation as some kind of excuse, and his complete disregard for competitive integrity. He should have stayed quiet, and none of this would have flared up. He would have been embarrassed by Life, but many have been. This way, he embarrassed himself - seemingly intentionally - and it's a lot harder for people to swallow.
While you're right that he should have stayed quiet, players looking for excuses in the face of impending wreckage and/or after said wreckage is nothing new, particular or special. Certainly not worth what's happening now.
On November 03 2015 06:09 brickrd wrote: this whole thing is pretty hilarious
i actually agree that lilbows comments were pretty clumsy and ill mannered, but hoooly shit the way people are flipping out, talking about how foreigners are trash and he's the new naniwa... this is the side of sc2 that gets a bad reputation, man
sometimes i think people need to take deep breaths and remember that these are basically kids playing computer games. i'm not saying people shouldn't be expected to behave maturely, but sometimes overreacting to immaturity is immature in itself
You know what gives sc2 a bad reputation? People forgiving bullshit like this or saying "He would've lost anyway, it's no big deal"
you realize there's a middle area between saying he did nothing wrong and saying he's a plague on the scene and human dirt? i'm just saying measured reactions, man. if you actually care for someone to learn from their mistakes and keep putting their energy into the game then you can't just publicly incinerate them. we're all just people
to each his own opinion, but i think drama mongering makes sc2 look much worse than "a young player did something stupid." like young athletes in physical sports don't say stupid crap? like you or i didn't say stupid crap at the same age?
Athletes get trashed when they say stupid things, as they should. Lilbow is having what he deserves -and man he should really lock his twitter down. But don't worry, the fury will slowly die out. Everyone will have forgotten about what in the end is an anecdote about an irrelevant player (when it comes to the highest level of competition) when Blizzcon begins.
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
eh come on guys be a little empathetic
it's not like you have to be proud of lilbow or anything but you can just lay off. what about all the other players who lilbow walked over to get where he got? blizzcon is cut-throat, we know that
Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with telling people how they should or should not prepare, but it's a reasonable assumption that players would prepare for a tournament as significant as Blizzcon. However, this controversy doesn't really stem from Lilbow's lack of preparation, it stems from his use of lacking preparation as some kind of excuse, and his complete disregard for competitive integrity. He should have stayed quiet, and none of this would have flared up. He would have been embarrassed by Life, but many have been. This way, he embarrassed himself - seemingly intentionally - and it's a lot harder for people to swallow.
While you're right that he should have stayed quiet, players looking for excuses in the face of impending wreckage and/or after said wreckage is nothing new, particular or special. Certainly not worth what's happening now.
Certainly not, but it is the mob mentality at work. Reddit and other social media serve as echo chambers, riling people up all the way to eleven. Reactions are rarely proportionate to what actually happened, but I place the blame firmly on Lilbow for making off-handed remarks in the first place. He's not new to the scene, he should have known what would happen. Does he deserve endless shit? No, but he certainly did his best to invite it.
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
eh come on guys be a little empathetic
it's not like you have to be proud of lilbow or anything but you can just lay off. what about all the other players who lilbow walked over to get where he got? blizzcon is cut-throat, we know that
Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with telling people how they should or should not prepare, but it's a reasonable assumption that players would prepare for a tournament as significant as Blizzcon. However, this controversy doesn't really stem from Lilbow's lack of preparation, it stems from his use of lacking preparation as some kind of excuse, and his complete disregard for competitive integrity. He should have stayed quiet, and none of this would have flared up. He would have been embarrassed by Life, but many have been. This way, he embarrassed himself - seemingly intentionally - and it's a lot harder for people to swallow.
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
eh come on guys be a little empathetic
it's not like you have to be proud of lilbow or anything but you can just lay off. what about all the other players who lilbow walked over to get where he got? blizzcon is cut-throat, we know that
Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with telling people how they should or should not prepare, but it's a reasonable assumption that players would prepare for a tournament as significant as Blizzcon. However, this controversy doesn't really stem from Lilbow's lack of preparation, it stems from his use of lacking preparation as some kind of excuse, and his complete disregard for competitive integrity. He should have stayed quiet, and none of this would have flared up. He would have been embarrassed by Life, but many have been. This way, he embarrassed himself - seemingly intentionally - and it's a lot harder for people to swallow.
I know this and again, I don't particularly care about lilbow.
However, in this thread I find people who are saying how they would obviously have prepared for a series against life and just find that distasteful. You can be annoyed all you want at lilbow for looking for excuses, but don't hold it against him in terms of actual play.
I also don't particular care about lilbow looking for excuses because they remain just that: excuses. If he wants to bring them up, sure whatever, it's his own integrity which he's wrecking. However one must remember that excuses in the first place stem from criticism of his play.
Well all in all, my view is that people are a bit too mad about it and I'd feel bad for any player who gets witch hunted, even if it's for a possibly legitimate reason. lay off guys, all i'm saying ~~
On November 03 2015 06:09 brickrd wrote: this whole thing is pretty hilarious
i actually agree that lilbows comments were pretty clumsy and ill mannered, but hoooly shit the way people are flipping out, talking about how foreigners are trash and he's the new naniwa... this is the side of sc2 that gets a bad reputation, man
sometimes i think people need to take deep breaths and remember that these are basically kids playing computer games. i'm not saying people shouldn't be expected to behave maturely, but sometimes overreacting to immaturity is immature in itself
You know what gives sc2 a bad reputation? People forgiving bullshit like this or saying "He would've lost anyway, it's no big deal"
you realize there's a middle area between saying he did nothing wrong and saying he's a plague on the scene and human dirt? i'm just saying measured reactions, man. if you actually care for someone to learn from their mistakes and keep putting their energy into the game then you can't just publicly incinerate them. we're all just people
to each his own opinion, but i think drama mongering makes sc2 look much worse than "a young player did something stupid." like young athletes in physical sports don't say stupid crap? like you or i didn't say stupid crap at the same age?
Athletes get trashed when they say stupid things, as they should. Lilbow is having what he deserves -and man he should really lock his twitter down. But don't worry, the fury will slowly die out. Everyone will have forgotten about what in the end is an anecdote when Blizzcon begins.
i realize that athletes get shit on too, it's part of my point. people forget that being young and having celebrity for a sporting talent can involve a lot of pressure and magnifies mistakes in ways that can be hard to deal with. like i said, i think his comments were foolish at best and rude at worst, but there are people who pounce on these things for the sheer joy of trashing a player, and i think that's often just as ugly as the player's poor behavior
and i'm not really worried. it's on lilbow to be able to handle the good and bad that come with minor celebrity, and it doesn't really effect me. but i call them as i see them, and some of the people in this thread are just absurd
SC2 in general is in huge trouble, lack of players / viewers, LOTV doesn't seem like it's going to be big or interesting, matchfixing is going on... And people are crucifying arguably the best foreign player. Great job community.
On November 03 2015 06:30 Jarree wrote: SC2 in general is in huge trouble, lack of players / viewers, LOTV doesn't seem like it's going to be big or interesting, matchfixing is going on... And people are crucifying arguably the best foreign player. Great job community.
Hey come on no one is asking for him to get executed. And I would actually be more worried if everyone just thought that attitude was okay. By the way, I disagree SC2 is in such huge trouble, it's definitely not in the finest place, but it's doing ok, and LotV will probably give it a little boost it could capitalize on.
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
eh come on guys be a little empathetic
it's not like you have to be proud of lilbow or anything but you can just lay off. what about all the other players who lilbow walked over to get where he got? blizzcon is cut-throat, we know that
Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with telling people how they should or should not prepare, but it's a reasonable assumption that players would prepare for a tournament as significant as Blizzcon. However, this controversy doesn't really stem from Lilbow's lack of preparation, it stems from his use of lacking preparation as some kind of excuse, and his complete disregard for competitive integrity. He should have stayed quiet, and none of this would have flared up. He would have been embarrassed by Life, but many have been. This way, he embarrassed himself - seemingly intentionally - and it's a lot harder for people to swallow.
10/10
Zealously being worshipped on TL. What else is new?
On November 03 2015 06:09 brickrd wrote: this whole thing is pretty hilarious
i actually agree that lilbows comments were pretty clumsy and ill mannered, but hoooly shit the way people are flipping out, talking about how foreigners are trash and he's the new naniwa... this is the side of sc2 that gets a bad reputation, man
sometimes i think people need to take deep breaths and remember that these are basically kids playing computer games. i'm not saying people shouldn't be expected to behave maturely, but sometimes overreacting to immaturity is immature in itself
You know what gives sc2 a bad reputation? People forgiving bullshit like this or saying "He would've lost anyway, it's no big deal"
you realize there's a middle area between saying he did nothing wrong and saying he's a plague on the scene and human dirt? i'm just saying measured reactions, man. if you actually care for someone to learn from their mistakes and keep putting their energy into the game then you can't just publicly incinerate them. we're all just people
to each his own opinion, but i think drama mongering makes sc2 look much worse than "a young player did something stupid." like young athletes in physical sports don't say stupid crap? like you or i didn't say stupid crap at the same age?
Athletes get trashed when they say stupid things, as they should. Lilbow is having what he deserves -and man he should really lock his twitter down. But don't worry, the fury will slowly die out. Everyone will have forgotten about what in the end is an anecdote when Blizzcon begins.
i realize that athletes get shit on too, it's part of my point. people forget that being young and having celebrity for a sporting talent can involve a lot of pressure and magnifies mistakes in ways that can be hard to deal with. like i said, i think his comments were foolish at best and rude at worst, but there are people who pounce on these things for the sheer joy of trashing a player, and i think that's often just as ugly as the player's poor behavior
and i'm not really worried. it's on lilbow to be able to handle the good and bad that come with minor celebrity, and it doesn't really effect me. but i call them as i see them, and some of the people in this thread are just absurd
You gotta realize that this is all going to blow over in a week or two. Maybe it'll flare up again next time he wins something major, but it's hardly something that's going to get him kicked from his team, uninvited from tourneys, ect. Naniwa and Idra lasted plenty long in the scene despite their poor reputations after all.
People are mad, they'll get over it. No need to jump on a high horse and tell everyone that they're wrong.
People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
Why does he bother practicing SC at all if he doesn't have the confidence to win ... He deserves the flak he is getting with such a childish excuse. I hate people who play for 2nd place, except in this case it was more like playing for last.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
Here you are criticizing him for offering a bad display in the games, getting humiliated by Life. Two pages ago, when Incognito answered you on that, you said it had nothing to do with the games, but with his attitude. Lilbow didn't make the WCS system look like a joke. The WCS system is designed to offer chances for foreigners. The chances were offered. The system worked. Nowhere in the system is it written, "suddenly Lilbow will look pretty good when he plays against Life". Hyun doesn't deserve the spot 1000 times more. Lilbow earned his place there. As such, he got it. There is nothing more to say there.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
. Exactly. He's not getting hate for losing to Life, he's not getting hate for playing poorly, he's getting hate for embarrassing himself and embarrassing any other foreigner who'd kill for that spot at the BIGGEST TOURNAMENT OF THE YEAR and then doubling down by going on social media and basically saying "I knew I'd lose so fuck it, i didn't even try".
If I were Blizzard and I saw that from my WCS Global representative I unlock the regions again faster than you could say "dead game"
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
Here you are criticizing him for offering a bad display in the games, getting humiliated by Life.
I read Charoisaur's post three times, and no, it's pretty clear the only thing he's criticizing is his poor attitude and lack of chivalry, of competitive spirit.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
Here you are criticizing him for offering a bad display in the games, getting humiliated by Life.
I read Charoisaur's post three times, and no, it's pretty clear the only thing he's criticizing is his poor attitude and competitive spirit.
I think you're right, I apologize if that is the case.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
Here you are criticizing him for offering a bad display in the games, getting humiliated by Life.
I read Charoisaur's post three times, and no, it's pretty clear the only thing he's criticizing is his poor attitude and competitive spirit.
I think you're right, I apologize if that is the case.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
Here you are criticizing him for offering a bad display in the games, getting humiliated by Life. Two pages ago, when Incognito answered you on that, you said it had nothing to do with the games, but with his attitude. Lilbow didn't make the WCS system look like a joke. The WCS system is designed to offer chances for foreigners. The chances were offered. The system worked. Nowhere in the system is it written, "suddenly Lilbow will look pretty good when he plays against Life". Hyun doesn't deserve the spot 1000 times more. Lilbow earned his place there. As such, he got it. There is nothing more to say there.
the games were the result of his attitude. if you don't practice and don't take the game seriously you are guaranteed to lose in embarassing fashion; still the games alone wouldn't get him hate.
And he made the WCS system look like a joke because it enables bad players with an unprofessional attitude to be at blizzcon in favor of hard working pros who would give everything to show a good performance.
i believe we are giving this kid too much credit. it was an abysmal downright laughable performance and there is no way to defend it. he lost to three all-in'ish early attacks that have served to throw off some pros in the very early days of SC2 but are expected to be held off by now. in game three he was considerably ahead but did a very all-inish move out himself and lost as a consequence.
if he had one one or two matches he wouldnt even have mentioned his LOTV practice at all. its just a very bad excuse for an inexcusable performance. no way that lilbow will sustain himself like the likes of naniwa did.
The foreign scene has taken a huge hit, and I don't think it will recover after this. Say good bye to region lock. If the best player the foreign scene could muster in 2015, didn't care for practicing, lost 3 incredibly simple games, two of which he scouted. Then we don't deserve a region lock. If another Korean player can take that WCS spot, and show that he can pour his soul into practicing and beat kespa koreans, like Hydra did, like Polt did. Then they deserve that spot more than a foreigner.
I am sure any other foreign player would had given anything to be there, and they would had practiced their heart out for that game against Life, to show that WCS deserves to be region locked. Lilbow had that chance to represent the foreign scene, and he wasted it.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
On November 03 2015 06:30 Jarree wrote: SC2 in general is in huge trouble, lack of players / viewers, LOTV doesn't seem like it's going to be big or interesting, matchfixing is going on... And people are crucifying arguably the best foreign player. Great job community.
well id argue lilbows attitude is almost as poisnous as matchfixing to a pro gaming scene. you are watching pro gaming games because you expect to see some great matches not some games where one player gets obliterated by early cheese every time.
On November 03 2015 07:02 Big J wrote: This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there.
He didn't choose, but he was.
All that matters is that Koreans will point at this games, and lack of ability/game knowledge, and say why do foreigners deserve to get free slots for the Global Finals through WCS charity?
I'm all out of cares to give about this. Lilbow made a decision that he believed was best for him. Whether or not it was really a smart choice does matter but the point is he made the decision for (in his mind) the right reasons and wasn't doing it maliciously or out of laziness. I don't agree with his choice, but I'm also not remotely in his situation. As far as handling the decision and explaining it to the public I wish he would have done one of two things either
1. Be up front about it form the start. Explain the difficulties with finding quality HotS practice in his situation. Don't wait til after you get bopped and then throw it out there casually. 2. Don't say anything at all. Take the loss and move on. The way he went about it it comes off as an excuse and he showed very little remorse over the outcome. He just said "meh, couldn't practice ty for the 5k but I don't care" which obviously rubs people the wrong way.
Lastly I just have to say that blaming Life for the quality of the games is pretty laughable. Own up to the loss.
Luckily this situation is almost 100% never going to happen again. The problem didn't stem from a foreigner making blizzcon it stemmed from the timing of LotV release and the fact that only one foreigner made it. In the future regardless of who makes it I don't foresee the lack of practice partner issue coming up again.
the games were the result of his attitude. if you don't practice and don't take the game seriously you are guaranteed to lose in embarassing fashion; still the games alone wouldn't get him hate.
And he made the WCS system look like a joke because it enables bad players with an unprofessional attitude to be at blizzcon in favor of hard working pros who would give everything to show a good performance.
You're right.
I don't care that he lost.
I care that he said the games didn't matter to him.
Whatever he did was worth watching him get smashed by Life int hat fashion. Seriously the most hilarious series I have seen in a long time. Dude knows he didn't stand a chance, which I find kind of ironic considering he thinks he stands a chance in lotv. Dude will be a nobody by this time next year if blink stalkers aren't as abuse-able in lotv.
progamer is a joke to begin with gaming should never be considered more than a hobby he's a lazy slob who tries to get by with life by playing games most normal people see gaming as a hobby, to think you are a professional at something so stupid is absurd
lilbow can do whatever he wants at something that has 0 meaningful impact in the world
On November 03 2015 07:11 Specialist wrote: progamer is a joke to begin with gaming should never be considered more than a hobby he's a lazy slob who tries to get by with life by playing games most normal people see gaming as a hobby, to think you are a professional at something so stupid is absurd
lilbow can do whatever he wants at something that has 0 meaningful impact in the world
Why are you even here? You realize how retarded you sound right? Every game or sport in its inception before popularity or recognition was considered "just a hobby".
@ big J It's one thing being underprepared and another thing being NOT prepared at all. If a european football club has to decide between national league and european league, then gets completely embarassed in the national league and afterwards say it doesn't matter because they didn't prepare and focused on european league they would get MASSACRED by media and fans. and about the foreign representive part, maybe he didn't choose to be it but he was and he has to has to behave accordingly
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
To use your example if Manchester United came out tomorrow and said something to the extent of "You know what? Barcelona are probably too good for us in the Champions League, so we're going to focus on the FA Cup instead" they'd be crucified by their supporters over it. Lilbow is no different, by not even attempting to try he basically pissed in the faces of every person who wanted to see a foreign hope at Blizzcon.
On November 03 2015 07:11 Specialist wrote: progamer is a joke to begin with gaming should never be considered more than a hobby he's a lazy slob who tries to get by with life by playing games most normal people see gaming as a hobby, to think you are a professional at something so stupid is absurd
lilbow can do whatever he wants at something that has 0 meaningful impact in the world
On November 03 2015 07:11 Specialist wrote: progamer is a joke to begin with gaming should never be considered more than a hobby he's a lazy slob who tries to get by with life by playing games most normal people see gaming as a hobby, to think you are a professional at something so stupid is absurd
lilbow can do whatever he wants at something that has 0 meaningful impact in the world
Are you seriously in a SC2 forum, disrespecting players that consider this their job and that put in hours and hours of practice a day.
On November 03 2015 07:11 Specialist wrote: progamer is a joke to begin with gaming should never be considered more than a hobby he's a lazy slob who tries to get by with life by playing games most normal people see gaming as a hobby, to think you are a professional at something so stupid is absurd
lilbow can do whatever he wants at something that has 0 meaningful impact in the world
Well this is an impressively dumb post
indeed... A lazy slob lol, he probably has more dedication at what he does than 90% of people.
On November 03 2015 07:11 Specialist wrote: progamer is a joke to begin with gaming should never be considered more than a hobby he's a lazy slob who tries to get by with life by playing games most normal people see gaming as a hobby, to think you are a professional at something so stupid is absurd
lilbow can do whatever he wants at something that has 0 meaningful impact in the world
Why are you even here? You realize how retarded you sound right? Every game or sport in its inception before popularity or recognition was considered "just a hobby".
On November 03 2015 07:11 Specialist wrote: progamer is a joke to begin with gaming should never be considered more than a hobby he's a lazy slob who tries to get by with life by playing games most normal people see gaming as a hobby, to think you are a professional at something so stupid is absurd
lilbow can do whatever he wants at something that has 0 meaningful impact in the world
Well this is an impressively dumb post
indeed... A lazy slob lol, he probably has more dedication at what he does than 90% of people.
On November 03 2015 07:11 Specialist wrote: progamer is a joke to begin with gaming should never be considered more than a hobby he's a lazy slob who tries to get by with life by playing games most normal people see gaming as a hobby, to think you are a professional at something so stupid is absurd
lilbow can do whatever he wants at something that has 0 meaningful impact in the world
Well this is an impressively dumb post
indeed... A lazy slob lol, he probably has more dedication at what he does than 90% of people.
On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote: Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question.
IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it.
It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene.
This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
To use your example if Manchester United came out tomorrow and said something to the extent of "You know what? Barcelona are probably too good for us in the Champions League, so we're going to focus on the FA Cup instead" they'd be crucified by their supporters over it. Lilbow is no different, by not even attempting to try he basically pissed in the faces of every person who wanted to see a foreign hope at Blizzcon.
Yes, but you would understand it if it wasn't Manchester but Rapid Wien and two days ago they won the prestigeous Viennese derby. Of course making the statement like that is stupid, completely undefendable. Is the action itself so bad? No way.
On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote: Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question.
IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it.
It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene.
This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude.
I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; on one hand, if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem (and this is even questionable, after all, maybe Blizzcon doesn't mean much to him for obscure reasons) ; on the other hand, if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision
On November 03 2015 07:11 Specialist wrote: progamer is a joke to begin with gaming should never be considered more than a hobby he's a lazy slob who tries to get by with life by playing games most normal people see gaming as a hobby, to think you are a professional at something so stupid is absurd
lilbow can do whatever he wants at something that has 0 meaningful impact in the world
Well this is an impressively dumb post
It is especially funny coming from a former wintrader who tried to be good at Hearthstone
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
To use your example if Manchester United came out tomorrow and said something to the extent of "You know what? Barcelona are probably too good for us in the Champions League, so we're going to focus on the FA Cup instead" they'd be crucified by their supporters over it. Lilbow is no different, by not even attempting to try he basically pissed in the faces of every person who wanted to see a foreign hope at Blizzcon.
Yes, but you would understand it if it wasn't Manchester but Rapid Wien and two days ago they won the prestigeous Viennese derby. Of course making the statement like that is stupid, completely undefendable. Is the action itself so bad? No way.
You're clearly beyond help, the Rapid Wien fans would do the exact same thing.
Terribly disappointing series. Lilbow did a diservice to himself and the rest of us who watched and cheered for him. After game two it was clear he wasn't trying all that hard, so I'm not surprised reading this thread. I won't be cheering for him in future, I'll reserve that for progammers I respect.
On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote: Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question.
IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it.
It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene.
This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude.
I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision
Well TLO started calling out Lilbow before he said anything on Twitter/Facebook (ie he knew what was going on before hand), and TLO is a foreign Zerg (even if he's not a WCS premier level player anymore). So I gotta assume that TLO is the one telling the truth.
On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote: Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question.
IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it.
It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene.
This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude.
I think it's not really a problem of attitude, just a not so clever choice from Lilbow. He probably knew on the inside that he doesn't have what it takes to beat such a player as Life in the most meaningful tournament of HotS (at least in 2015) but could not completely accept the idea. Trying his best then failing would confirm for sure he was right, but not practicing would allow him to think he could have beaten life had he practiced. Except it's not really a problem if he can't beat Life, fans for sure would not blame him had he tried his best so it was a win win situation.
If anything, this whole debacle confirms that the only french player worthy of the title 'Napoleon' or a 'pun version' of it, is Stephano.
On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote: Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question.
IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it.
It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene.
This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude.
I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision
Well TLO started calling out Lilbow before he said anything on Twitter/Facebook, and TLO is a foreign Zerg (even if he's not a WCS premier level player anymore). So I gotta assume that TLO is the one telling the truth.
TLO is WCS premier level no question (2 ro8, got agonizingly close in a very tough ro32 group with MaNa and viOLet). I don't like to assume things but it's by far the least of two evils.
On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote: Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question.
IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it.
It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene.
This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude.
I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision
Personally, I think it's both.
I think what needs to change first is the attitude of the fans. When fans demand personality and local favorites more than they demand results it ultimately leads to a scene that is fractured, divided and disorganized.
What has to matter more than ANYTHING ELSE is results. The minute that the entire Starcraft scene can stand together on the same stage and say results matter more than your personality or where you come from then the foreign scene will improve.
The scene in Korea is cutthroat. It's hard, and it's fast. Players that can't keep up are left behind. It's that very maelstrom that produces such quality play and quality players. The foreign scene needs to become that if it ever hopes to compete.
On November 03 2015 07:34 Cricketer12 wrote: Shit like this is why giving foreigners hand outs pisses me off, they waste the gifts they are given. The TLO point especially.
Especially when there are much more deserving players in Korea like soO who could've come instead.
On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote: Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question.
IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it.
It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene.
This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude.
I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision
Well TLO started calling out Lilbow before he said anything on Twitter/Facebook, and TLO is a foreign Zerg (even if he's not a WCS premier level player anymore). So I gotta assume that TLO is the one telling the truth.
TLO is WCS premier level no question (2 ro8, got agonizingly close in a very tough ro32 group with MaNa and viOLet). I don't like to assume things but it's by far the least of two evils.
Oh you're right, I misread his liquipedia bio as saying he was only in premier for S1. I'll be honest I haven't been following SC2 for a while, I tried watching this weekend's finals and it just didn't appear much to me. Last tourney I watched was the finals rounds of WCS S3 funny enough.
But ya, while I side with TLO it is word against word, so hardly confirmation.
On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote: Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question.
IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it.
It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene.
This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude.
I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision
Well TLO started calling out Lilbow before he said anything on Twitter/Facebook, and TLO is a foreign Zerg (even if he's not a WCS premier level player anymore). So I gotta assume that TLO is the one telling the truth.
TLO is WCS premier level no question (2 ro8, got agonizingly close in a very tough ro32 group with MaNa and viOLet). I don't like to assume things but it's by far the least of two evils.
Oh you're right, I misread his liquipedia bio as saying he was only in premier for S1. I'll be honest I haven't been following SC2 for a while, I tried watching this weekend's finals and it just didn't appear much to me. Last tourney I watched was the finals rounds of WCS S3 funny enough.
But ya, while I side with TLO it is word against word, so hardly confirmation.
On November 03 2015 07:34 Cricketer12 wrote: Shit like this is why giving foreigners hand outs pisses me off, they waste the gifts they are given. The TLO point especially.
Especially when there are much more deserving players in Korea like soO who could've come instead.
I don't think this is really a point, soO knew the rules and he didn't perform well in GSL/SSL. Lilbow hasn't stolen anything from anybody, man I have to say his WCS season 3 performance was quite stellar, though he had lucky games.
On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote: Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question.
IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it.
It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene.
This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude.
I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision
Well TLO started calling out Lilbow before he said anything on Twitter/Facebook, and TLO is a foreign Zerg (even if he's not a WCS premier level player anymore). So I gotta assume that TLO is the one telling the truth.
TLO is WCS premier level no question (2 ro8, got agonizingly close in a very tough ro32 group with MaNa and viOLet). I don't like to assume things but it's by far the least of two evils.
Oh you're right, I misread his liquipedia bio as saying he was only in premier for S1. I'll be honest I haven't been following SC2 for a while, I tried watching this weekend's finals and it just didn't appear much to me. Last tourney I watched was the finals rounds of WCS S3 funny enough.
But ya, while I side with TLO it is word against word, so hardly confirmation.
Lilbow made up his mind to lose after the 3rd game he played over a month ago. It makes sense that he wouldn't take practice partners.
On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote: Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question.
IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it.
It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene.
This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude.
I don't know who to believe, Lilbow or TLO ; but if TLO is right and Lilbow turned off the help that was offered to him, then Lilbow's attitude is a problem, and if Lilbow is right and no one was willing to train HotS with him for that bo5, then the whole foreign scene is a problem. Finally, I think we have to hope Lilbow just made a very short-sighted decision
Well TLO started calling out Lilbow before he said anything on Twitter/Facebook, and TLO is a foreign Zerg (even if he's not a WCS premier level player anymore). So I gotta assume that TLO is the one telling the truth.
TLO is WCS premier level no question (2 ro8, got agonizingly close in a very tough ro32 group with MaNa and viOLet). I don't like to assume things but it's by far the least of two evils.
Oh you're right, I misread his liquipedia bio as saying he was only in premier for S1. I'll be honest I haven't been following SC2 for a while, I tried watching this weekend's finals and it just didn't appear much to me. Last tourney I watched was the finals rounds of WCS S3 funny enough.
But ya, while I side with TLO it is word against word, so hardly confirmation.
Why would TLO lie?
Because he was mad? Because people lied to him (random pro - "can you believe that dumbass Lilbow? I asked him if he wanted to practice and he said no")? Because he heard rumors that weren't true about Lilbow?
Don't get me wrong, I believe TLO, but that's still just belief =p.
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
I think it's just that he should have practiced in the first place... Not so much the how or the how much.
I don't even think he would have gotten much flame at all if he had come with zero HotS games on the clock. He simply needed to keep his mouth shut about that ^^
A possible scenario is Lilbow turns off TLO/Snute/Elazer etc offers to practice until Blizzcon because he plans to trip to Korea and train on ladder there ; when he discovers let's say three weeks later than other Blizzcon players and their practice partners don't play ladder but only train via customs and that the KR ladder is too soft to help him practice, TLO/Snute/Elazer have already planned their switching to LotV and it's too late.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
I think it's just that he should have practiced in the first place... Not so much the how or the how much.
I don't even think he would have gotten much flame at all if he had come with zero HotS games on the clock. He simply needed to keep his mouth shut about that ^^
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
It's terrible to say but yeah he should not have been "that honest" in the interview. Though to be fair it wouldn't have mattered if he had said so there, what makes it a disappointment is that he told the crowd Blizzcon was the only thing important even before winning the season's finals.
But it's ok to be bad at Public Relations. For the game itself I see it as a huge strategy mistake, he had to focus on one map to prove the foreigner hype was not in vain. He was against Life, he knows how Life plays and we all do: it was at least 70% certain the man would go mass zerglings so as to a) see if Lilbow was a joke or a threat b) not reveal any advanced strats. He played like Life would not go mass zerglings, so he failed miserably.
Still want to see him perform in LOTV so I hope he learns a lot from this loss.
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
I think it's just that he should have practiced in the first place... Not so much the how or the how much.
I don't even think he would have gotten much flame at all if he had come with zero HotS games on the clock. He simply needed to keep his mouth shut about that ^^
Yeah pretty much.
He probably didn't want that people think he performs that badly in a tournament he practiced for. Better have an excuse ready. Of course he would have gotten much less hate if he didn't say anything but for him it could be equally shameful when people think he's just bad
no, it was pretty embarassing, for lilbow, for the foreign scene, even for blizzard & this whole wcs system. A player can do whatever he wants, its their right, but theres no guarantee lilbow will ever make it this far again. Why u dont give it ur all why u have the chance is just disappointing. As time goes on, im pretty sure lilbow will come to regret this.
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
I think it's just that he should have practiced in the first place... Not so much the how or the how much.
I don't even think he would have gotten much flame at all if he had come with zero HotS games on the clock. He simply needed to keep his mouth shut about that ^^
Yeah pretty much.
He probably didn't want that people think he performs that badly in a tournament he practiced for. Better have an excuse ready. Of course he would have gotten much less hate if he didn't say anything but for him it could be equally shameful when people think he's just bad
Yeah I think so too. Like, he was kind of leading up to losing the game with his comments. It massively backfired, especially with the aftergame tweet.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
I think people criticizing him is absolutely fine, personal attacks on whatever social media obviously not.
But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene
Well he kinda did though, it shouldn't affect his career long term (like banning him or something similar), but short term this experience will surely help him to grow up a bit, his lack of awareness probably stems from the fact that he is still pretty young. The next time he simply shouldn't open his mouth when all he has to say is "lol i didn't care"
On November 03 2015 05:57 Incognoto wrote: armchair nerds telling professional players how they should prepare their matches.
I think it's just that he should have practiced in the first place... Not so much the how or the how much.
I don't even think he would have gotten much flame at all if he had come with zero HotS games on the clock. He simply needed to keep his mouth shut about that ^^
Yeah pretty much.
He probably didn't want that people think he performs that badly in a tournament he practiced for. Better have an excuse ready. Of course he would have gotten much less hate if he didn't say anything but for him it could be equally shameful when people think he's just bad
Probably, but let's be real. Nobody really expected him to win. This wasn't against some foreigners in an online qualifier, this was against the hardest competition you can get. HE IS BAD IN COMPARISON, no need to downplay the almost unavoidable loss here, it makes him look even worse tbh ("hey i could have beat Life np if i cared, lol") Yeah no
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
I think people criticizing him is absolutely fine, personal attacks on whatever social media obviously not.
But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene
Well he kinda did though, it shouldn't affect his career long term (like banning him or something similar), but short term this experience will surely help him to grow up a bit, his lack of awareness probably stems from the fact that he is still pretty young. The next time he simply shouldn't open his mouth when all he has to say is "lol i didn't care"
The perfect move would have been to tweet something like "Life too good as expected, I did my best with what I had, gg". This way you look classy, respectful and fair play while only acknowledging what everyone knows. Hell he could even have added afterwards "Sadly I couldn't prepare the match in the best conditions because of things that didn't depend on me but I ensure there will be brighter days in LotV and that you'll be able to cheer for me again" so that he touched upon the topic without offending people. Sometimes twisting reality a bit can salvage a reputation.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
He DID embarrass the whole foreign scene, like it or not he was the only foreign player to make the top 16, a place a lot of people feel he only got (myself included) thanks to Blizzard and WCS stacking the deck with the region lock, this was a chance to show he deserved a spot, that Blizzard and WCS were justified, but he didn't even TRY, he didn't even care and worse he went on social media immediately after and made the posting equivalent of "LOL thank u for free money". What do you think KeSPA is going to say? I'm willing to wager something along the lines of "Why should our players be left out of top 16 by foreign players who aren't going to bother?" and you know what? they'd be JUSTIFIED in that based on this performance
All Lilbow did yesterday was prove what the region locks critics have said all along, it's a fucking joke.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
He DID embarrass the whole foreign scene, like it or not he was the only foreign player to make the top 16, a place a lot of people feel he only got (myself included) thanks to Blizzard and WCS stacking the deck with the region lock, this was a chance to show he deserved a spot, that Blizzard and WCS were justified, but he didn't even TRY, he didn't even care and worse he went on social media immediately after and made the posting equivalent of "LOL thank u for free money". What do you think KeSPA is going to say? I'm willing to wager something along the lines of "Why should our players be left out of top 16 by foreign players who aren't going to bother?" and you know what? they'd be JUSTIFIED in that based on this performance
All Lilbow did yesterday was prove what the region locks critics have said all along, it's a fucking joke.
Pretty much. He showed up, collected his welfare check, and went home. Lilbow's just being honest about the situation, so that's respectable.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
He DID embarrass the whole foreign scene, like it or not he was the only foreign player to make the top 16, a place a lot of people feel he only got (myself included) thanks to Blizzard and WCS stacking the deck with the region lock, this was a chance to show he deserved a spot, that Blizzard and WCS were justified, but he didn't even TRY, he didn't even care and worse he went on social media immediately after and made the posting equivalent of "LOL thank u for free money". What do you think KeSPA is going to say? I'm willing to wager something along the lines of "Why should our players be left out of top 16 by foreign players who aren't going to bother?" and you know what? they'd be JUSTIFIED in that based on this performance
All Lilbow did yesterday was prove what the region locks critics have said all along, it's a fucking joke.
Euh don't base your opinion about regional lock on lilbows performance, these two things aren't connected all that much. Region lock IS NEEDED to actually get people who care. A region locked wcs simply shouldn't give as much wcs points, foreigners really don't deserve a blizzcon spot atm, they deserve an own league though.
On November 03 2015 01:40 TRaFFiC wrote: I'm 100% with Lilbow on this one. First, it's Blizzard's fault for making the biggest tournament of HOTS days before LOTV release. Of course no one gives a shit about that game. I disagree with Lycan. Practicing LOTV helps ALOT. Just because they change 1-2 units doesn't change the whole game. You need thousands of games of practice with new units as a pro... Second, it's his choice what he does in any tournament he qualifies for.
People put too much pressure on top foreigners. This thread is a shining example. He lost a few games. Who gives a shit? Move on. I just hope he doesn't pull a Naniwa and fall off the face of the earth.
Expecting foreigners to fucking try is putting too much pressure on them?
On November 03 2015 01:43 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 01:39 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On November 03 2015 01:26 Incognoto wrote: I think that lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything. If there are players out there who felt that they deserved lilbow's spot, they should have beat lilbow.
This is life we're talking about.Life specifically said that he saw that lilbow's wall-ins were weak. this is life we're talking about. of course he's going to go for the jugular, using his signature lings to do it.
all in all, sucks but i don't think it's a problem
There are tons of players who could, but they are all in Korea and didn't have the opportunity to do so.
How does that have anything to do with Lilbow? You want all korean wcs? I don't. I enjoy watching top foreigners.
I enjoy watch top foreigners too, a lot. But if the best the foreign scene can produce is this, then they shouldn't be at Blizzcon.
This has nothing to do with trying. Lilbow himself said he tried his hardest in the matches. His word is good enough for me. He's a pro player in a scene where it's very hard to make money these days. All he did was prioritize his time to maximize his profits. This is what all pros should do. I don't see why the community thinks it's their right to choose what he spends time on.
Because this is a spectator "sport". Without the community HE HAS NO EFFING PROFITS TO MAKE. He owes his livelihood to his fans, he owes them TO FUCKING TRY when they support him.
On November 03 2015 01:03 Jade wrote: Is there really a need to dig deeper than the facts and Lilbow's official response is my question.
IMO there is, because this attitude problem doesn't begin or end with Lilbow. By many accounts this is a systemic problem with the way Western players see the game, themselves and the scene vs how Koreans see it.
It's a fundamental problem that has to addressed if there ever is going to be a real push to improve the western scene.
This doesn't end with Lilbow, he's just the latest example in a long history of this nonsense. If the fans truly do want to see foreign players compete on the big stage with Koreans like they claim they want to, they should NOT tolerate this attitude.
I think it's not really a problem of attitude, just a not so clever choice from Lilbow. He probably knew on the inside that he doesn't have what it takes to beat such a player as Life in the most meaningful tournament of HotS (at least in 2015) but could not completely accept the idea. Trying his best then failing would confirm for sure he was right, but not practicing would allow him to think he could have beaten life had he practiced. Except it's not really a problem if he can't beat Life, fans for sure would not blame him had he tried his best so it was a win win situation.
If anything, this whole debacle confirms that the only french player worthy of the title 'Napoleon' or a 'pun version' of it, is Stephano.
This was my first thought as well. He spent so much time and effort to qualify for blizzcon, I just don't believe that he doesn't care about it. I find it more plausible the he avoided the personal humiliation of being outclassed by koreans by not even trying in the first hand. He may not realise it himself, he may have some double-defense mechanism that stops him from acknowledging that he doesn't try because he doesn't dare to, instead he fools himself into thinking that it is a strategical choice.
That said, I can't know what's going on in his head, but I find this take on it the most believable from the little information I have.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
He DID embarrass the whole foreign scene, like it or not he was the only foreign player to make the top 16, a place a lot of people feel he only got (myself included) thanks to Blizzard and WCS stacking the deck with the region lock, this was a chance to show he deserved a spot, that Blizzard and WCS were justified, but he didn't even TRY, he didn't even care and worse he went on social media immediately after and made the posting equivalent of "LOL thank u for free money". What do you think KeSPA is going to say? I'm willing to wager something along the lines of "Why should our players be left out of top 16 by foreign players who aren't going to bother?" and you know what? they'd be JUSTIFIED in that based on this performance
All Lilbow did yesterday was prove what the region locks critics have said all along, it's a fucking joke.
Euh don't base your opinion about regional lock on lilbows performance, these two things aren't connected all that much. Region lock IS NEEDED to actually get people who care. A region locked wcs simply shouldn't give as much wcs points, foreigners really don't deserve a blizzcon spot atm, they deserve an own league though.
That's a fair call. I'll grant you that. Either reduce the number of points WCS Global gives or End the Region lock, either works.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
He DID embarrass the whole foreign scene, like it or not he was the only foreign player to make the top 16, a place a lot of people feel he only got (myself included) thanks to Blizzard and WCS stacking the deck with the region lock, this was a chance to show he deserved a spot, that Blizzard and WCS were justified, but he didn't even TRY, he didn't even care and worse he went on social media immediately after and made the posting equivalent of "LOL thank u for free money". What do you think KeSPA is going to say? I'm willing to wager something along the lines of "Why should our players be left out of top 16 by foreign players who aren't going to bother?" and you know what? they'd be JUSTIFIED in that based on this performance
All Lilbow did yesterday was prove what the region locks critics have said all along, it's a fucking joke.
Pretty much. He showed up, collected his welfare check, and went home. Lilbow's just being honest about the situation, so that's respectable.
Respectable for him MAYBE, but it does cast a very negative light on Region Locking as a whole. Make no doubt about it, this whole situation makes the naysayers on region locking (like myself) feel very vindicated.
If people still want Region Locking, they need to start thinking of solutions real quick to how to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again.
On November 03 2015 07:34 Cricketer12 wrote: Shit like this is why giving foreigners hand outs pisses me off, they waste the gifts they are given. The TLO point especially.
Especially when there are much more deserving players in Korea like soO who could've come instead.
I don't think this is really a point, soO knew the rules and he didn't perform well in GSL/SSL. Lilbow hasn't stolen anything from anybody, man I have to say his WCS season 3 performance was quite stellar, though he had lucky games.
Lilbow didn't steal anything, he was given a gift. That gift was a noncompetitive league with a competitive reward.
Did he play his heart out to win WCS EU? I'm sure that he did. Is that a meaningful accomplishment? Fuck no.
He got a gift and instead of being gracious and humble, threw it back in the faces of people - including his own fans - who tuned in for great games, of Blizzard who organized the region-locked WCS system to give him this opportunity, and of the Koreans who missed out on the 16th spot.
He might not have wanted the baggage that accompanies the honor of being the #1 foreigner, but that doesn't mean he gets to escape them.
After a season of Star Trek: TOS, the actress who plays Uhura ran into Martin Luther King Jr. at a party. MLK thanked Nichelle Nichols for playing Uhura, and Nichelle confided in him that she had just told Gene Roddenberry that she was quitting the show, on account of the role being, basically, shitty and tertiary.
MLK said “Do you not understand what God has given you? … You have the first important non-traditional role, non-stereotypical role. … You cannot abdicate your position. You are changing the minds of people across the world, because for the first time, through you, we see ourselves and what can be.”
That's all to show that sometimes people find themselves in positions that are about a lot more than just themselves. Whether they wanted it or not, whether it's "fair" or not, something above and beyond the bare minimum is expected of them. Lilbow made a conscious decision to do the bare minimum possible, on the biggest, most symbolically meaningful stage available. Region-locked WCS needed a champion and Lilbow said "hahahaha nope."
On November 03 2015 08:01 The_Red_Viper wrote: ("hey i could have beat Life np if i cared, lol") Yeah no
basically the exact opposite of what he said
Actually
Lilbow's Facebook I knew i could beat life, i tried and i practiced a bit, lotv is coming soon and i want to be good at this game.
Tried a practiced a bit later clarified to be two games in one month. It's more or less what Cascade said, he's just trying to protect his own ego with the 'Can't fail if you don't try' mental fallacy'. Of course it backfired and he's not getting any community support so he's trolling back on Twitter or w/e.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
He DID embarrass the whole foreign scene, like it or not he was the only foreign player to make the top 16, a place a lot of people feel he only got (myself included) thanks to Blizzard and WCS stacking the deck with the region lock, this was a chance to show he deserved a spot, that Blizzard and WCS were justified, but he didn't even TRY, he didn't even care and worse he went on social media immediately after and made the posting equivalent of "LOL thank u for free money". What do you think KeSPA is going to say? I'm willing to wager something along the lines of "Why should our players be left out of top 16 by foreign players who aren't going to bother?" and you know what? they'd be JUSTIFIED in that based on this performance
All Lilbow did yesterday was prove what the region locks critics have said all along, it's a fucking joke.
It's a joke to those that don't understand that blizzcon isn't supposed to be the highest quality tournament, but blizzard's covergirl to gain as much interest as possible. Just because you and others can't look past hype and advertising to understand that blizzcon plainly isn't the highest level tournament out there doesn't make it a joke.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
He DID embarrass the whole foreign scene, like it or not he was the only foreign player to make the top 16, a place a lot of people feel he only got (myself included) thanks to Blizzard and WCS stacking the deck with the region lock, this was a chance to show he deserved a spot, that Blizzard and WCS were justified, but he didn't even TRY, he didn't even care and worse he went on social media immediately after and made the posting equivalent of "LOL thank u for free money". What do you think KeSPA is going to say? I'm willing to wager something along the lines of "Why should our players be left out of top 16 by foreign players who aren't going to bother?" and you know what? they'd be JUSTIFIED in that based on this performance
All Lilbow did yesterday was prove what the region locks critics have said all along, it's a fucking joke.
Euh don't base your opinion about regional lock on lilbows performance, these two things aren't connected all that much. Region lock IS NEEDED to actually get people who care. A region locked wcs simply shouldn't give as much wcs points, foreigners really don't deserve a blizzcon spot atm, they deserve an own league though.
Hmm, not sure about that. Polt and Hydra did fine and Lilbow was able to be a match for them in WCS. Besides, the foreign scene needs the incentive to be able to qualify for the "World Championships".
It's just so disappointing to me that he didn't really try. His choice of course but hard for me to understand. His clumsy (his own words) excuses are just really dumb on top of that.
Lilbow's Facebook I knew i could beat life, i tried and i practiced a bit, lotv is coming soon and i want to be good at this game.
Tried a practiced a bit later clarified to be two games in one month. It's more or less what Cascade said, he's just trying to protect his own ego with the 'Can't fail if you don't try' mental fallacy'. Of course it backfired and he's not getting any community support so he's trolling back on Twitter or w/e.
That's weird, in the pregame video he said the opposite of this. Are you sure he didn't mean "couldn't" and mistyped? Otherwise I don't see how that makes sense.
On November 03 2015 08:01 The_Red_Viper wrote: ("hey i could have beat Life np if i cared, lol") Yeah no
basically the exact opposite of what he said
Actually
Lilbow's Facebook I knew i could beat life, i tried and i practiced a bit, lotv is coming soon and i want to be good at this game.
Tried a practiced a bit later clarified to be two games in one month. It's more or less what Cascade said, he's just trying to protect his own ego with the 'Can't fail if you don't try' mental fallacy'. Of course it backfired and he's not getting any community support so he's trolling back on Twitter or w/e.
That's weird, in the pregame video he said the opposite of this. Are you sure he didn't mean "couldn't" and mistyped? Otherwise I don't see how that makes sense.
I copied and pasted his message: here's a link now that I figured out how to link replies:
Lilbow's Facebook I knew i could beat life, i tried and i practiced a bit, lotv is coming soon and i want to be good at this game.
God I had missed that one. Someone should really steal his keyboard.
It was buried as a reply to someone saying he should have just forfeit if he didn't think he could beat Life / wasn't going to practice.
He's just all over the place trying to soothe his own ego and backtracking when people call him out on his stupid responses.
Millenium managers should really pay him a week of holidays in the South of France with no computers at all, so that he stops embarrassing himself and comes back to LotV with a fresh and rested mind.
On November 03 2015 08:01 The_Red_Viper wrote: ("hey i could have beat Life np if i cared, lol") Yeah no
basically the exact opposite of what he said
Actually
Lilbow's Facebook I knew i could beat life, i tried and i practiced a bit, lotv is coming soon and i want to be good at this game.
Tried a practiced a bit later clarified to be two games in one month. It's more or less what Cascade said, he's just trying to protect his own ego with the 'Can't fail if you don't try' mental fallacy'. Of course it backfired and he's not getting any community support so he's trolling back on Twitter or w/e.
That's weird, in the pregame video he said the opposite of this. Are you sure he didn't mean "couldn't" and mistyped? Otherwise I don't see how that makes sense.
I copied and pasted his message: here's a link now that I figured out how to link replies:
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
He DID embarrass the whole foreign scene, like it or not he was the only foreign player to make the top 16, a place a lot of people feel he only got (myself included) thanks to Blizzard and WCS stacking the deck with the region lock, this was a chance to show he deserved a spot, that Blizzard and WCS were justified, but he didn't even TRY, he didn't even care and worse he went on social media immediately after and made the posting equivalent of "LOL thank u for free money". What do you think KeSPA is going to say? I'm willing to wager something along the lines of "Why should our players be left out of top 16 by foreign players who aren't going to bother?" and you know what? they'd be JUSTIFIED in that based on this performance
All Lilbow did yesterday was prove what the region locks critics have said all along, it's a fucking joke.
It's a joke to those that don't understand that blizzcon isn't supposed to be the highest quality tournament, but blizzard's covergirl to gain as much interest as possible. Just because you and others can't look past hype and advertising to understand that blizzcon plainly isn't the highest level tournament out there doesn't make it a joke.
Well, we the hardcore audience know that every single starleague in korea is more competetive. But Blizzcon is still the tournament of the year, both because how hard it is to qualify for it and the general hype around it (don't forget the money you can win there either) It definitely is the "worlds of sc2" tbh, the current qualifying process isn't perfect yet, but it is getting there tbh.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
He DID embarrass the whole foreign scene, like it or not he was the only foreign player to make the top 16, a place a lot of people feel he only got (myself included) thanks to Blizzard and WCS stacking the deck with the region lock, this was a chance to show he deserved a spot, that Blizzard and WCS were justified, but he didn't even TRY, he didn't even care and worse he went on social media immediately after and made the posting equivalent of "LOL thank u for free money". What do you think KeSPA is going to say? I'm willing to wager something along the lines of "Why should our players be left out of top 16 by foreign players who aren't going to bother?" and you know what? they'd be JUSTIFIED in that based on this performance
All Lilbow did yesterday was prove what the region locks critics have said all along, it's a fucking joke.
Euh don't base your opinion about regional lock on lilbows performance, these two things aren't connected all that much. Region lock IS NEEDED to actually get people who care. A region locked wcs simply shouldn't give as much wcs points, foreigners really don't deserve a blizzcon spot atm, they deserve an own league though.
Hmm, not sure about that. Polt and Hydra did fine and Lilbow was able to be a match for them in WCS. Besides, the foreign scene needs the incentive to be able to qualify for the "World Championships".
It's just so disappointing to me that he didn't really try. His choice of course but hard for me to understand. His clumsy (his own words) excuses are just really dumb on top of that.
No it needs the incentive for progaming to be viable for newcomers. WCS with koreans doesn't do the trick. If the foreign scene as a whole gets to the level of koreigners (which you can see at weekend tournaments) you can change the wcs points to reflect the strength of the region. But right now the foreign scene is way too bad and it is a farce that you can qualify through wcs alone.
Lilbow's Facebook I knew i could beat life, i tried and i practiced a bit, lotv is coming soon and i want to be good at this game.
God I had missed that one. Someone should really steal his keyboard.
It was buried as a reply to someone saying he should have just forfeit if he didn't think he could beat Life / wasn't going to practice.
He's just all over the place trying to soothe his own ego and backtracking when people call him out on his stupid responses.
On November 03 2015 08:22 Nebuchad wrote:
On November 03 2015 08:18 Wuster wrote:
On November 03 2015 08:12 Nebuchad wrote:
On November 03 2015 08:01 The_Red_Viper wrote: ("hey i could have beat Life np if i cared, lol") Yeah no
basically the exact opposite of what he said
Actually
Lilbow's Facebook I knew i could beat life, i tried and i practiced a bit, lotv is coming soon and i want to be good at this game.
Tried a practiced a bit later clarified to be two games in one month. It's more or less what Cascade said, he's just trying to protect his own ego with the 'Can't fail if you don't try' mental fallacy'. Of course it backfired and he's not getting any community support so he's trolling back on Twitter or w/e.
That's weird, in the pregame video he said the opposite of this. Are you sure he didn't mean "couldn't" and mistyped? Otherwise I don't see how that makes sense.
I copied and pasted his message: here's a link now that I figured out how to link replies:
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
He DID embarrass the whole foreign scene, like it or not he was the only foreign player to make the top 16, a place a lot of people feel he only got (myself included) thanks to Blizzard and WCS stacking the deck with the region lock, this was a chance to show he deserved a spot, that Blizzard and WCS were justified, but he didn't even TRY, he didn't even care and worse he went on social media immediately after and made the posting equivalent of "LOL thank u for free money". What do you think KeSPA is going to say? I'm willing to wager something along the lines of "Why should our players be left out of top 16 by foreign players who aren't going to bother?" and you know what? they'd be JUSTIFIED in that based on this performance
All Lilbow did yesterday was prove what the region locks critics have said all along, it's a fucking joke.
It's a joke to those that don't understand that blizzcon isn't supposed to be the highest quality tournament, but blizzard's covergirl to gain as much interest as possible. Just because you and others can't look past hype and advertising to understand that blizzcon plainly isn't the highest level tournament out there doesn't make it a joke.
Oh then by all means forgive me for being so silly as to believe that the tournament Blizzard and WCS spend the ENTIRE YEAR giving away points to and marketed as the WCS GLOBAL FINALS isn't the highest level tournament of the year. Clearly I must be wrong because I'm not functionally retarded
Good to see a little variety at least. Like in the football world cup there are teams that qualify via different regions in Asia, Africa and North America when in all honesty they quite often take the place of a few European or South American countries who are superior. But saying that Flash and soO would have been potential winners at Blizzcon, where it was hard to see Lilbow or Polt winning.
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
He DID embarrass the whole foreign scene, like it or not he was the only foreign player to make the top 16, a place a lot of people feel he only got (myself included) thanks to Blizzard and WCS stacking the deck with the region lock, this was a chance to show he deserved a spot, that Blizzard and WCS were justified, but he didn't even TRY, he didn't even care and worse he went on social media immediately after and made the posting equivalent of "LOL thank u for free money". What do you think KeSPA is going to say? I'm willing to wager something along the lines of "Why should our players be left out of top 16 by foreign players who aren't going to bother?" and you know what? they'd be JUSTIFIED in that based on this performance
All Lilbow did yesterday was prove what the region locks critics have said all along, it's a fucking joke.
It's a joke to those that don't understand that blizzcon isn't supposed to be the highest quality tournament, but blizzard's covergirl to gain as much interest as possible. Just because you and others can't look past hype and advertising to understand that blizzcon plainly isn't the highest level tournament out there doesn't make it a joke.
Oh then by all means forgive me for being so silly as to believe that the tournament Blizzard and WCS spend the ENTIRE YEAR giving away points to and marketed as the WCS GLOBAL FINALS isn't the highest level tournament of the year. Clearly I must be wrong because I'm not functionally retarded
Big J is a strong supporter of region locking. He probably wants half of blizzcon to be foreigners. I hope not, but he probably does.
So his argument is that blizzcon, the culmination of sc2 tournaments throughout the year that celebrates sc2, does not need to be the highest standard of play. Imagine a blizzcon final, foreigner vs korean, and the match ends in 20 minutes. But it's okay because we had a white face!
On November 03 2015 08:30 KrOeastbound wrote: Good to see a little variety at least. Like in the football world cup there are teams that qualify via different regions in Asia, Africa and North America when in all honesty they quite often take the place of a few European or South American countries who are superior. But saying that Flash and soO would have been potential winners at Blizzcon, where it was hard to see Lilbow or Polt winning.
Did you just compare Lilbow to Flash and soO?
And suggest that Lilbow is in some any way not entirely inferior?
I mean I know you're not coming at this from a rational standpoint but how are you arguing that a competition that awards almost 1/3 of its points to a group of players specifically because they're too weak to compete with the others is attempting to gather the best possible line-up?
On November 03 2015 08:30 KrOeastbound wrote: Good to see a little variety at least. Like in the football world cup there are teams that qualify via different regions in Asia, Africa and North America when in all honesty they quite often take the place of a few European or South American countries who are superior. But saying that Flash and soO would have been potential winners at Blizzcon, where it was hard to see Lilbow or Polt winning.
Did you just compare Lilbow to Flash and soO?
And suggest that Lilbow is in some any way not entirely inferior?
Lilbow's Facebook I knew i could beat life, i tried and i practiced a bit, lotv is coming soon and i want to be good at this game.
God I had missed that one. Someone should really steal his keyboard.
It was buried as a reply to someone saying he should have just forfeit if he didn't think he could beat Life / wasn't going to practice.
He's just all over the place trying to soothe his own ego and backtracking when people call him out on his stupid responses.
On November 03 2015 08:22 Nebuchad wrote:
On November 03 2015 08:18 Wuster wrote:
On November 03 2015 08:12 Nebuchad wrote:
On November 03 2015 08:01 The_Red_Viper wrote: ("hey i could have beat Life np if i cared, lol") Yeah no
basically the exact opposite of what he said
Actually
Lilbow's Facebook I knew i could beat life, i tried and i practiced a bit, lotv is coming soon and i want to be good at this game.
Tried a practiced a bit later clarified to be two games in one month. It's more or less what Cascade said, he's just trying to protect his own ego with the 'Can't fail if you don't try' mental fallacy'. Of course it backfired and he's not getting any community support so he's trolling back on Twitter or w/e.
That's weird, in the pregame video he said the opposite of this. Are you sure he didn't mean "couldn't" and mistyped? Otherwise I don't see how that makes sense.
I copied and pasted his message: here's a link now that I figured out how to link replies:
Next sentence starts with "however", and isn't contradictory to the first sentence. I really think he meant to write "couldn't" here.
I agree the sentence is strange. The fact he has a broken english like me and every French guy doesn't help his cause
I sometimes miss the "n't" in "couldn't", "didn't" and so on when I type quickly. No idea why, as it often makes a huge difference to the meaning of the sentence... I've had to send a few emarassing follow-up emails due to that... So yeah, for me it's perfectly plausible that he just missed the "n't".
On November 03 2015 08:30 KrOeastbound wrote: Good to see a little variety at least. Like in the football world cup there are teams that qualify via different regions in Asia, Africa and North America when in all honesty they quite often take the place of a few European or South American countries who are superior. But saying that Flash and soO would have been potential winners at Blizzcon, where it was hard to see Lilbow or Polt winning.
Agree. It's not that the top Koreans aren't very well represented.
On November 03 2015 08:30 KrOeastbound wrote: Good to see a little variety at least. Like in the football world cup there are teams that qualify via different regions in Asia, Africa and North America when in all honesty they quite often take the place of a few European or South American countries who are superior. But saying that Flash and soO would have been potential winners at Blizzcon, where it was hard to see Lilbow or Polt winning.
Did you just compare Lilbow to Flash and soO?
And suggest that Lilbow is in some any way not entirely inferior?
No, I didn't say that at all :/
Ohhh I get it, your sentence structure threw me a little. Cheers.
On November 03 2015 08:35 Nebuchad wrote: I mean I know you're not coming at this from a rational standpoint but how are you arguing that a competition that awards almost 1/3 of its points to a group of players specifically because they're too weak to compete with the others is attempting to gather the best possible line-up?
Wait a second. It is undeniable that the core design of the system is made to get the best players for blizzcon. It literally awards players who do well all year long in every competition. It is not in blizzard's power to send kespa players to weekend tournaments, which is why korea now has two starleagues. In a perfect world where every single player competetes in their wcs region AND at every single weekend tournament (well in most of them) we would have the 16 best (most consistent) players at blizzcon. This year we are somewhat close already tbh. The details aren't perfect, but the system as a whole is pretty good tbh
On November 03 2015 06:33 Charoisaur wrote: People still defending lilbow don't understand what's going on. He was the sole foreign representive at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP he basically represented the foreign scene. Many people were criticizing the WCS system because it enabled a foreigner to be at blizzcon and so fans of foreign sc2 hoped lilbow proved that foreigners deserve to be at blizzcon So lilbow not only disappointed his fans but embarassed the entire foreign scene, made the WCS system look like a joke and took a spot that other players like hyun would have deserved 1000 times more. Also he disrespected his opponent, the tournament organizers and got a paid trip to the USA for nothing. So yes he deserves every inche of hate he gets.
This is exactly the stupidity behind a lot of posts. Lilbow wasn't sent by some "united foreigner community" as their representative. He didn't choose to be the only foreigner there. It's his fucking life, he didn't do something ridiculous like Naniwa and dropped out midgame. He just didn't prepare as well as he could have, an example of thousands every year in every sport. And he didn't even do it out of lazyness, he didn't waste his time with party escapes or whoring around.
Every greater football club in Europe has to choose how to prioritize their player and training resources between European leagues, national leagues and cups. Every olympic winter games the NHL and their players are forced to make the decision between the biggest event for national teams, or the biggest league in the world. And I'm sorry, but the players, teams and leagues often don't decide in favor of the most prestigeous event possible, but rather the ones they have responsibilities towards or the ones that they feel more capable of managing. Same here, Lilbow chose the LotV DH that he actually has a chance in over getting crushed by Life or INnoVation one way or another anyways.
By the way, we see the same thing happening over and over again with proleague in Starcraft anyways. Players dropping out of international events on short notice or coming underprepared to them. The only difference is Lilbow's stupid twitter posts instead of a well-constructed PR declaration with some apology towards his fans for not playing better.
How is it even relevant though if he chose it or not? It simply isn't. The fact is that he was the only foreigner and a lot of people were very excited about him playing at blizzcon. I am sure he knew it and what it means. He simply chose not to care, which might be the better decision for him personally (i actually doubt it very much, but hey let's just pretend it is), but for fans who cheered for him, stayed awake till late hours to watch him play? Yeah that had to be a slap in the face. It was fucking Blizzcon and not some random online cup, this changes a lot.
Yeah, but how is this shitstorm justified? That people are pissed is their right. But saying things like he embarasses the whole foreign scene and shit like that is just way out of proportion. Sometimes in life people disappoint you with their sometimes selfish decisions. That's bad enough, but you learn to move on. Or you create a stupid shitstorm and put yourself on the same level or even below.
He DID embarrass the whole foreign scene, like it or not he was the only foreign player to make the top 16, a place a lot of people feel he only got (myself included) thanks to Blizzard and WCS stacking the deck with the region lock, this was a chance to show he deserved a spot, that Blizzard and WCS were justified, but he didn't even TRY, he didn't even care and worse he went on social media immediately after and made the posting equivalent of "LOL thank u for free money". What do you think KeSPA is going to say? I'm willing to wager something along the lines of "Why should our players be left out of top 16 by foreign players who aren't going to bother?" and you know what? they'd be JUSTIFIED in that based on this performance
All Lilbow did yesterday was prove what the region locks critics have said all along, it's a fucking joke.
It's a joke to those that don't understand that blizzcon isn't supposed to be the highest quality tournament, but blizzard's covergirl to gain as much interest as possible. Just because you and others can't look past hype and advertising to understand that blizzcon plainly isn't the highest level tournament out there doesn't make it a joke.
Oh then by all means forgive me for being so silly as to believe that the tournament Blizzard and WCS spend the ENTIRE YEAR giving away points to and marketed as the WCS GLOBAL FINALS isn't the highest level tournament of the year. Clearly I must be wrong because I'm not functionally retarded
Big J is a strong supporter of region locking. He probably wants half of blizzcon to be foreigners. I hope not, but he probably does.
So his argument is that blizzcon, the culmination of sc2 tournaments throughout the year that celebrates sc2, does not need to be the highest standard of play. Imagine a blizzcon final, foreigner vs korean, and the match ends in 20 minutes. But it's okay because we had a white face!
Ridiculous
If that wasn't the goal they wouldn't have created the WCS system to begin with? They could have just invited the top 16 of GSL which everyone knows are the best represention for top 16 in the world.
And yes, I would like to have a bigass mixed tournament, if it was more mixed I would be happier but for that the foreign scene would have to step it up a bit. I think the original WCS EU and AM were ridiculous because there is no reason to make a WCS EUROPE or WCS AMERICA if you are not going to enforce some ruling that actually supports the name. Just make WCS 1, WCS 2, WCS 3 then. That blizzard decided that the mixed tournament should be blizzcon and advertize it as the event of the year is not my fault.
On November 03 2015 08:35 Nebuchad wrote: I mean I know you're not coming at this from a rational standpoint but how are you arguing that a competition that awards almost 1/3 of its points to a group of players specifically because they're too weak to compete with the others is attempting to gather the best possible line-up?
Wait a second. It is undeniable that the core design of the system is made to get the best players for blizzcon. It literally awards players who do well all year long in every competition. It is not in blizzard's power to send kespa players to weekend tournaments, which is why korea now has two starleagues. In a perfect world where every single player competetes in their wcs region AND at every single weekend tournament (well in most of them) we would have the 16 best (most consistent) players at blizzcon. This year we are somewhat close already tbh. The details aren't perfect, but the system as a whole is pretty good tbh
Exactly. The system rewards the people who win things during the year, not the best players. If you're in a system where everyone participates in every tournament, the two are the same. But we aren't.
On November 03 2015 08:42 r_gg wrote: BlizzCon is just like World Cup or Olympics.
It certainly won't always be the most competitive and high-level tournament of the game/sport, but it is still the most prestigious tournament by far.
the situation has been similar for ages in handball for instance. Every top team is european (OK Qatar reached a WC finals recently, but this whole team is an utter joke) so that winning an European championship is far tougher than winning a World Championship or the Olympics. Still, the tournament that gets the most exposure is by FAR the Olympics, which is ridiculously easy compared to the others once you're in.
On November 03 2015 08:30 KrOeastbound wrote: Good to see a little variety at least. Like in the football world cup there are teams that qualify via different regions in Asia, Africa and North America when in all honesty they quite often take the place of a few European or South American countries who are superior. But saying that Flash and soO would have been potential winners at Blizzcon, where it was hard to see Lilbow or Polt winning.
Yup.
World Chess Champion Garry Kasparov once referred to a few "lesser" grandmasters at a tournament as "Chess Tourists" who travel the world to play in all kinds of tournaments, but never stand a chance of winning a top-level event.
That expression always comes to mind when I see "players" like Lilbow. In this specific instance, I don't mind that he lost, but he took the place away from someone who would have tried harder.
Putting up a fight against Life in front of 40,000 viewers/sponsors/commentators etc. on Twitch is a chance he won't get again any time soon.
I don't think he'll ever win a WCS again. And looking at his attitude, he doesn't deserve it either.
Well, If he wins the next dreamhack, it's going to be such a great story! One spin would be: "he proved the haters wrong, now everyone apologise to the master strategist, Napoleon incarnated" and the other one: "if he is so good, he should've prepared for blizzcon. It's 10000000 times more important than dreamhack. Let's hate him more". A controversial figure is exactly what starcraft community needs. Not more machines, who didn't practise much, because they slept (or powered down) for a few hours. And even if Lilbow doesn't win at dreamhack, he will still generate a lot of negative following for himself and serve us as the next Idra/Naniwa. So yeah - short of winning Blizzcon, Lilbow got us the best case scenario. Losing to Life in a normal fashion 0-3 or 1-3 would have been so underwhelming. But now we have a great story, just waiting to unfold.
Go Lilbow! You have to get the first place at dreamhack!
On November 03 2015 08:50 rfv14 wrote: Well, If he wins the next dreamhack, it's going to be such a great story! One spin would be: "he proved the haters wrong, now everyone apologise to the master strategist, Napoleon incarnated" and the other one: "if he is so good, he should've prepared for blizzcon. It's 10000000 times more important than dreamhack. Let's hate him more". A controversial figure is exactly what starcraft community needs. Not more machines, who didn't practise much, because they slept (or powered down) for a few hours. And even if Lilbow doesn't win at dreamhack, he will still generate a lot of negative following for himself and serve us as the next Idra/Naniwa. So yeah - short of winning Blizzcon, Lilbow got us the best case scenario. Losing to Life in a normal fashion 0-3 or 1-3 would have been so underwhelming. But now we have a great story, just waiting to unfold.
Go Lilbow! You have to get the first place at dreamhack!
Lilbow can't be the next bad boy of StarCraft. He's a nice guy who made the mistake of clumsily making excuses for a bad showing because he didn't practice enough. Disappointing, but not seduced to the dark side (unfortunately ).
On November 03 2015 08:50 rfv14 wrote: Well, If he wins the next dreamhack, it's going to be such a great story! One spin would be: "he proved the haters wrong, now everyone apologise to the master strategist, Napoleon incarnated" and the other one: "if he is so good, he should've prepared for blizzcon. It's 10000000 times more important than dreamhack. Let's hate him more". A controversial figure is exactly what starcraft community needs. Not more machines, who didn't practise much, because they slept (or powered down) for a few hours. And even if Lilbow doesn't win at dreamhack, he will still generate a lot of negative following for himself and serve us as the next Idra/Naniwa. So yeah - short of winning Blizzcon, Lilbow got us the best case scenario. Losing to Life in a normal fashion 0-3 or 1-3 would have been so underwhelming. But now we have a great story, just waiting to unfold.
Go Lilbow! You have to get the first place at dreamhack!
There's a reason I tune in to StarCraft streams instead of big brother streams. :/
Maybe we should have the pro gamers vote each other out of blizzcon, and winning a game grants you immunity. would it increase stream numbers??
Lilbow can't be the next bad boy of StarCraft. He's a nice guy who made the mistake of clumsily making excuses of a bad showing because he didn't practice enough. Disappointing, but not seduced to the dark side.
I believe neither Idra nor Naniwa are really "bad boys". They were just clumsy, socially awkward, miscommunicating and shit happened, so they had to play the role. Lilbow should do that too to make himself more prominent. Next time people will pay to see him lose to a Korean .
Lilbow can't be the next bad boy of StarCraft. He's a nice guy who made the mistake of clumsily making excuses of a bad showing because he didn't practice enough. Disappointing, but not seduced to the dark side.
I believe neither Idra nor Naniwa are really "bad boys". They were just clumsy, socially awkward, miscommunicating and shit happened, so they had to play the role. Lilbow should do that too to make himself more prominent. Next time people will pay to see him lose to a Korean .
I don't think Idra and Nani are actually Sith but they were/ are bm and ragers. Lilbow has a lot to learn yet.
I respect Lilbow as a player in terms of skill, however I do not respect him as a person anymore. He turned his back to whole foreign scene, Starcraft 2 scene in general. He probably does not care about my feelings, and the feeling is mutual. For me, his attitude is pure disgrace of esports and from now on, in my eyes, Lilbow is the equivalent of someone, who absolutely does not know the meaning of word "sportsmanship" at all.
Korean players in SC2 and LoL understand the burden of taking on the title of progamer and will practice and play their hearts out to honor that title.
Why is there so many cases of Matchfixing then?... See blanket statements aren't fair, it's not fair to downplay western/foreign players nor put them all in the same basket. Lilbow's chances were the worst in the tournament to begin with and had no access to an active ladder or active practice partners to prepare with, as I said before, I wouldn't do the same, but I can respect his adult decision. He believes that doing this is what gives his career as a player the best chances, wether that is correct or not is irrelevant, his intentions are clear and have no malice attached to them. These were extraordinary circumstances not likely to repeat themselves, LOTV Beta being up makes it incredibly hard to prepare, so being the weakest player and knowing that he has virtually have no practice partners or even a ladder going up against -the best- KeSPA players living and preparing in houses with their teammates and the still active KR ladder... it's a tough situation to be in. No one likes losing or giving up, but Lilbow made it clear his goal was to win WCS and after that stated more than once that he lost motivation in Hots, he said multiple times that he didn't think he had a chance at Blizzcon, does that make him such a horrible monster? To the second part of your blanket statement if it counts for anything I've been around eSports and poured my heart and soul into it for a good 5+ years trying to do my bit to help it grow to where it is right now, and Lilbow isn't a disgrace to me, he's an adult who made an honest (perhaps dumb, perhaps not) decision, with no malice whatsoever for what he believes is the best for his career, that's all. I promise you he tried his best in the games, he wasn't throwing or matchfixing, he just didn't prepare as much - and I can't give him shit for that because I know how hard it has been to find anyone to prepare with outside of Korea in the last month+ for Hots. (Again, an extraordinary circumstance that won't be repeating itself in sc2). I get that I'm going against the circle jerk, and I understand that him explicitly saying 'he didn't practice' as an excuse or whatever that is doesn't look good on anyone involved, himself included and is kind of 'weak', his biggest mistake was to type that tweet, but how much preparation he decides to put in is kind of up to him, he earned that spot, not anyone else. He didn't matchfix or break any rules, he did what he thought was best for him - selfish? absolutely, but that's about his biggest sin here. I'm sure everyone (yourself included) has found themselves guilty of being selfish more than once in your lifetime, just saying, judging helps no one and I'm sure he learned his lesson, jump off the high horses and lay down the pitchforks - those help no one either.
Lilbow didn't stand a chance against Life. Lilbow, Life, and the entire scene knows that. Everyone expected a 3-0, and that's what actually happened. Why the drama?
We don't need ethics lessons here. The guy didn't kill anybody. Calm down guys.
On November 03 2015 01:32 Ctone23 wrote: Lilbow is a WCS Champion, no twitter BM can take that away. He is a young man who in the end made a poor choice of words. That's just it, words...
Look at Life's pre and post game interview. Pre game he says he knows nothing of Lilbow and will simply crush him because he's a foreigner, yet post game he admitted to studying him and planning the all in strategies for each game. Players are full of shit and always looking for the #mindgames.
Twisting his words and pitchforking him as a disrespectful player is utter bullshit. He gave his all this year and deserved his spot. The timing wasn't great with DH winter qualifiers just happening, etc. Let's not crucify this young man for a poor choice of words for attention. He's clearly one of, if not THE best foreigner we have. Let's calm down and wish him well in the future.
I agree, lets give him a chance to redeem himself. Because not doing anything to give good games is disrespectful to the game and the fans! But anyone can do stupid something stupid and Come back!
Lilbow was afraid. Not afraid of Life or afraid of losing, because he would never be as good as he is if he had these fears. He was just afraid of trying REALLY hard, and still coming up 0-3. Now at least, it has some validity and he saves face.
I know this fear because it is the same (sad) reason I am not masters. I piddle around against AI and ladder every so often, but never sit down and say OKAY for this month I am going to bust my ass and try to get masters. Because what if I cant? What if I really try and I just can't then I'm just bad or something.
I totally understand why he did not want to try. It's scary to give your all and to come up short. That is the same reason Stephano always had his excuses. You just undersell everything then its okay to lose.
No one is going to say, "I've been training really hard, and I've put my whole life into this for a month" and then get 0-3'd? Ouch.
The only foreigner who would do this is Snute, and that is why he is so loved! I don't blame Lilbow, but I would have loved to see him move to Korea for a month and play smurf Korean account and ladder or something to train. Even at the risk that this would expose his practice to the Koreans, at least he would have tried. O well.
I think he could have won. I think he was good enough, when giving 100% effort, to have a 30 or 40% chance against Life. I guess we will never know.
On November 03 2015 11:27 CursOr wrote: Here is my thought.
Lilbow was afraid. Not afraid of Life or afraid of losing, because he would never be as good as he is if he had these fears. He was just afraid of trying REALLY hard, and still coming up 0-3. Now at least, it has some validity and he saves face.
I know this fear because it is the same (sad) reason I am not masters. I piddle around against AI and ladder every so often, but never sit down and say OKAY for this month I am going to bust my ass and try to get masters. Because what if I cant? What if I really try and I just can't then I'm just bad or something.
I totally understand why he did not want to try. It's scary to give your all and to come up short. That is the same reason Stephano always had his excuses. You just undersell everything then its okay to lose.
No one is going to say, "I've been training really hard, and I've put my whole life into this for a month" and then get 0-3'd? Ouch.
The only foreigner who would do this is Snute, and that is why he is so loved! I don't blame Lilbow, but I would have loved to see him move to Korea for a month and play smurf Korean account and ladder or something to train. Even at the risk that this would expose his practice to the Koreans, at least he would have tried. O well.
I think he could have won. I think he was good enough, when giving 100% effort, to have a 30 or 40% chance against Life. I guess we will never know.
I dont think he was afraid, but your analysis is right. Giving 100% effort he could get a 30-40% chance vs life at best. So why not focus on LotV, get really good at that, and crush the tournaments after that. The payoff there is far greater since his chance of winning R1 was so low. It's a disappointing stance from the spectator point of view, but understandable from his point of view.
On November 03 2015 11:27 CursOr wrote: Here is my thought.
Lilbow was afraid. Not afraid of Life or afraid of losing, because he would never be as good as he is if he had these fears. He was just afraid of trying REALLY hard, and still coming up 0-3. Now at least, it has some validity and he saves face.
I know this fear because it is the same (sad) reason I am not masters. I piddle around against AI and ladder every so often, but never sit down and say OKAY for this month I am going to bust my ass and try to get masters. Because what if I cant? What if I really try and I just can't then I'm just bad or something.
I totally understand why he did not want to try. It's scary to give your all and to come up short. That is the same reason Stephano always had his excuses. You just undersell everything then its okay to lose.
No one is going to say, "I've been training really hard, and I've put my whole life into this for a month" and then get 0-3'd? Ouch.
The only foreigner who would do this is Snute, and that is why he is so loved! I don't blame Lilbow, but I would have loved to see him move to Korea for a month and play smurf Korean account and ladder or something to train. Even at the risk that this would expose his practice to the Koreans, at least he would have tried. O well.
I think he could have won. I think he was good enough, when giving 100% effort, to have a 30 or 40% chance against Life. I guess we will never know.
I dont think he was afraid, but your analysis is right. Giving 100% effort he could get a 30-40% chance vs life at best. So why not focus on LotV, get really good at that, and crush the tournaments after that. The payoff there is far greater since his chance of winning R1 was so low. It's a disappointing stance from the spectator point of view, but understandable from his point of view.
The problem is this: he did not do all he can to compete against a group of top players in one of the most prestigious tournament. If he is a _professional_ gamer, then his #1 job is to do all he can to compete, period. In this case, he just quit, and that's the point that most of us are accusing him of.
On November 03 2015 12:12 phodacbiet wrote: I don't understand why people are giving Lilbow such a hard time. I mean it's not like he was going to beat Life even if he did practice.
The Toronto Maple Leafs are tanking and rebuilding this season. Does that mean they can play like crap and leave the net wide open for their opponents? No. They still have to give it their best in practice and games even if the chance of winning is slim What Lilbow did is leaving the net wide open and saying "I'm not even going to bother trying." Such a disgrace. And he calls himself a professional.
On November 03 2015 12:17 Larkin wrote: More disappointed in Life for cheesing him. He had just as much responsibility as Lilbow did to put on an entertaining show.
Neither player's job is to put on an entertaining show. Their job is to win at Starcraft 2. There are no style points awarded in the game of Starcraft 2.
On November 03 2015 12:12 phodacbiet wrote: I don't understand why people are giving Lilbow such a hard time. I mean it's not like he was going to beat Life even if he did practice.
I don't understand why everyone thinks Lilbow has no chance against Life. Is Hydra that worst compared to Life? Didn't Lilbow went 0-2 against Hydra and was on the verge of losing, but to only do the impossible and made a come back and win the entire WCS tournament?
It just boggles my mind that after doing that and being a champion, he surrendered before the biggest tournament.
On November 03 2015 12:17 Larkin wrote: More disappointed in Life for cheesing him. He had just as much responsibility as Lilbow did to put on an entertaining show.
Neither player's job is to put on an entertaining show. Their job is to win at Starcraft 2. There are no style points awarded in the game of Starcraft 2.
Well, there kind of are. And Life won them all. Anyone who says that that series wasn't profoundly hilarious purely because of Lilbow's complete inability to defend predictable aggression and Life's willingness to completely show up his opponent is kidding themselves.
On November 03 2015 12:17 Larkin wrote: More disappointed in Life for cheesing him. He had just as much responsibility as Lilbow did to put on an entertaining show.
Neither player's job is to put on an entertaining show. Their job is to win at Starcraft 2. There are no style points awarded in the game of Starcraft 2.
Well, there kind of are. And Life won them all. Anyone who says that that series wasn't profoundly hilarious purely because of Lilbow's complete inability to defend predictable aggression and Life's willingness to completely show up his opponent is kidding themselves.
I didn't mean to suggest that I personally wasn't entertained; just that it's ridiculous to say that a tournament player is obligated to play in a certain way for entertainment.
The funny thing about lilbow is, that he had generated an incredible amount of positive comment in Korean Communities as well. As I might have explained in a past topic (WCS Region Lock), many people believed that the foreign community can flourish when left alone, and Lilbow was the best example everyone could give.
I am sure with this kind of sentiment back in Korea, the foreign sentiment for Lilbow wouldn't even compare.
Just know, whoever is defending him at this point, that you are agreeing to be completely fine with him taking every foreigner's dream, every foreigner's hope, and spitting into it, crumpling it up into a little tiny ball, and throwing it in the trash can.
I have read some facebook comments stating that the Koreans would have leaked lilbow's builds if he had chosen to practice with them. Korean progamers have more honour than that. Before they question us on ours, I would like them to think about how Lilbow threw away his honor as a professional gamer.
Lilbow first says he practiced 2 HOTS games. Then he declares he lost only because Life cheesed. Then, he declares he lost because nobody would practice with him in HOTS. And finally, he blocks TLO.
People hated Life so much for his plays until lilbow came out and tweeted for whatever braindead thoughts he was having. Now, Lilbow is just another whining foreigner.
Compare him to FanTaSy, who, amidst all odds that herO would dominate 3-0, actually took an insane first game and lost others but making it look so close.
Compare him to Polt and Hydra, (who, by the way, beat Dream who beat Life who beat Lilbow) who clearly came prepared with clear builds in their mind, knew how their opponent would play, and crushed them in the end.
Remind me to say that Lilbow beat Hydra back in WCS. Guess who went up to Ro8 and who didn't?
Lilbow now keeps resorting to 'Life cheesed me', after building not a single forge nor mothership core. If Lilbow sincerely thought he would have a chance vs Life based on some mid game build orders that he wrote down after 2 games of HOTS, he just disrespected the entire SC2 scene.
Maybe, Lilbow should stop playing LoL and get practicing. Really hope he comes through in Dreamhack and proves us wrong that foreigners have no professionalism in ESports. Or maybe I should cheer on Snute, Mana, TLO, or Bunny. They would have played their hearts out.
I wonder what HyuN was thinking, and Dark, and every other progamer who was following this entire scene.
Go look at PartinG's tweet after he lost.
We're not your fans anymore Lilbow.
Private comment: The tweet that made sd_andeh sick? I was the one who asked him that. It made me sick too and I quit tweeting him after that. I wanted something that would restore my faith in him, that 2 games of HOTS was a really bad comment because he was angry and he actually played 2000 or something. Really wanted him to get through, but I don't think he deserves anything anymore.
On November 03 2015 12:17 Larkin wrote: More disappointed in Life for cheesing him. He had just as much responsibility as Lilbow did to put on an entertaining show.
Neither player's job is to put on an entertaining show. Their job is to win at Starcraft 2. There are no style points awarded in the game of Starcraft 2.
Well, there kind of are. And Life won them all. Anyone who says that that series wasn't profoundly hilarious purely because of Lilbow's complete inability to defend predictable aggression and Life's willingness to completely show up his opponent is kidding themselves.
I didn't mean to suggest that I personally wasn't entertained; just that it's ridiculous to say that a tournament player is obligated to play in a certain way for entertainment.
Yeah, I completely agree; it's just that in this context, I find it amusing that people are bashing Life for not "putting on an entertaining show". Firstly, he doesn't have to (as you said), and secondly, that dismantling was much more entertaining than any +2 stalker attack Lilbow would have had planned.
On November 03 2015 11:27 CursOr wrote: Here is my thought.
Lilbow was afraid. Not afraid of Life or afraid of losing, because he would never be as good as he is if he had these fears. He was just afraid of trying REALLY hard, and still coming up 0-3. Now at least, it has some validity and he saves face.
I know this fear because it is the same (sad) reason I am not masters. I piddle around against AI and ladder every so often, but never sit down and say OKAY for this month I am going to bust my ass and try to get masters. Because what if I cant? What if I really try and I just can't then I'm just bad or something.
I totally understand why he did not want to try. It's scary to give your all and to come up short. That is the same reason Stephano always had his excuses. You just undersell everything then its okay to lose.
No one is going to say, "I've been training really hard, and I've put my whole life into this for a month" and then get 0-3'd? Ouch.
The only foreigner who would do this is Snute, and that is why he is so loved! I don't blame Lilbow, but I would have loved to see him move to Korea for a month and play smurf Korean account and ladder or something to train. Even at the risk that this would expose his practice to the Koreans, at least he would have tried. O well.
I think he could have won. I think he was good enough, when giving 100% effort, to have a 30 or 40% chance against Life. I guess we will never know.
I dont think he was afraid, but your analysis is right. Giving 100% effort he could get a 30-40% chance vs life at best. So why not focus on LotV, get really good at that, and crush the tournaments after that. The payoff there is far greater since his chance of winning R1 was so low. It's a disappointing stance from the spectator point of view, but understandable from his point of view.
Do you really think the extra 2 weeks he's going to be practicing the unbalanced LotV beta is going to be the difference between him being great at LotV and not? So much of a difference that it's worth throwing his reputation as a pro player in the mud? When people switched from WoL to HotS, it was generally the bad players who started playing beta as early as possible in hopes of getting an advantage when HotS was released. The good players were still on WoL right up until the end playing tournaments. Yet, when HotS came out, for the most part, the good players were still good and the bad players were still bad. The extra little bit of practice didn't make a huge difference at all. This is the same for Lilbow, practicing LotV an extra month early won't offer a huge advantage worth throwing away a fucking Blizzcon for.
On November 03 2015 12:39 DCStarcraftGall wrote: People hated Life so much for his plays until lilbow came out and tweeted for whatever braindead thoughts he was having. Now, Lilbow is just another whining foreigner.
Not for the first time, I agree with almost everything you say... but I was confused by this statement.
Are you talking about something in the past, or do you mean that Korean viewers didn't like the way Life disrespected Lilbow? Because from what I saw in the LR thread, most people on TL agreed right away that Lilbow brought that disrespect on himself by being unable to cope with elementary aggressive openings.
On November 03 2015 12:17 Larkin wrote: More disappointed in Life for cheesing him. He had just as much responsibility as Lilbow did to put on an entertaining show.
Game 1 was legit Life style Zerg. I am unsure even if lilbow knew it was coming(which, if he ever watched Life play, should have known it would have come sometime) would have been able to deflect it. Of course, lilbow didn't because he didn't practice anything.
Game 2 was the only cheese I could call a cheese in the game. I think Life found lilbow's lack of scouting kinda easy to abuse. Again, this is natural progamer mindset, wouldn't call Life out for this.
Game 3 was Life going "Please defend this Lilbow, you are the sole foreign hope and if you just made- Oh nvm"
On November 03 2015 12:39 DCStarcraftGall wrote: People hated Life so much for his plays until lilbow came out and tweeted for whatever braindead thoughts he was having. Now, Lilbow is just another whining foreigner.
Not for the first time, I agree with almost everything you say... but I was confused by this statement.
Are you talking about something in the past, or do you mean that Korean viewers didn't like the way Life disrespected Lilbow? Because from what I saw in the LR thread, most people on TL agreed right away that Lilbow brought that disrespect on himself by being unable to cope with elementary aggressive openings.
This is a summary of the opinions that was going on at SGall at the time. Although I might agree with the sentiments, this has none of my opinion included.
Me included, SGall was of the opinion Life was going a bit overboard with his ling pushes after the first game. Did he really have to eliminate the foreign hope that quickly? He doesn't know entertainment.
Then, Lilbow busted out his tweets and everyone began to be disappointed(in the worst way imaginable)
If you want my opinions, the ID RCCar is my TL account.
On November 03 2015 12:59 lichter wrote: life vs protoss, lilbow vs zerg
did people really expect to be entertained??
Lilbow could have done 2gate 3 times in a row and went up to Ro8 and I know for sakes I would have been entertained He could have pulled a 7 probe rush and so long as it works by golly I don't know any Toss OP Just for the fact that lilbow was the sole foreigner, he would have gotten away with so much.
On November 03 2015 12:17 Larkin wrote: More disappointed in Life for cheesing him. He had just as much responsibility as Lilbow did to put on an entertaining show.
Game 1 was legit Life style Zerg. I am unsure even if lilbow knew it was coming(which, if he ever watched Life play, should have known it would have come sometime) would have been able to deflect it. Of course, lilbow didn't because he didn't practice anything.
Game 2 was the only cheese I could call a cheese in the game. I think Life found lilbow's lack of scouting kinda easy to abuse. Again, this is natural progamer mindset, wouldn't call Life out for this.
Game 3 was Life going "Please defend this Lilbow, you are the sole foreign hope and if you just made- Oh nvm"
Game 1 and 2, I agree. But game 3 was life abusing what he knew about the previous 2 games: Lilbow always puts his gateway at the nat rather than his main ramp. Also, Life clearly disrespected Lilbow as he didn't even shake his hand or acknowledge his presence after the series. He just got up and left like he was taking break from laddering on his smurf account. I've heard plenty of koreans voice disagreement with Lilbow being in the top 16 because they don't think he deserved it. It wouldn't surprise me if the korean pro gamers felt the same and life's actions in the series give off that vibe.
To flip this around, consider the fact that there are currently four protosses remaining in the bracket, one of whom Life is guaranteed to play should he beat INnoVation. Why the hell would he reveal anything that he doesn't need to?
On November 03 2015 12:59 lichter wrote: life vs protoss, lilbow vs zerg
did people really expect to be entertained??
Lilbow could have done 2gate 3 times in a row and went up to Ro8 and I know for sakes I would have been entertained He could have pulled a 7 probe rush and so long as it works by golly I don't know any Toss OP Just for the fact that lilbow was the sole foreigner, he would have gotten away with so much.
i actually find cheesy games way more entertaining than +2blink sentry or life's often uninspired (however effective) zvp
On November 03 2015 13:04 thecrazymunchkin wrote: To flip this around, consider the fact that there are currently four protosses remaining in the bracket, one of whom Life is guaranteed to play should he beat INnoVation. Why the hell would he reveal anything that he doesn't need to?
exactly, if he can't hit your fastball then you never throw any other pitch.
On November 03 2015 12:17 Larkin wrote: More disappointed in Life for cheesing him. He had just as much responsibility as Lilbow did to put on an entertaining show.
Game 1 was legit Life style Zerg. I am unsure even if lilbow knew it was coming(which, if he ever watched Life play, should have known it would have come sometime) would have been able to deflect it. Of course, lilbow didn't because he didn't practice anything.
Game 2 was the only cheese I could call a cheese in the game. I think Life found lilbow's lack of scouting kinda easy to abuse. Again, this is natural progamer mindset, wouldn't call Life out for this.
Game 3 was Life going "Please defend this Lilbow, you are the sole foreign hope and if you just made- Oh nvm"
Game 1 and 2, I agree. But game 3 was life abusing what he knew about the previous 2 games: Lilbow always puts his gateway at the nat rather than his main ramp. Also, Life clearly disrespected Lilbow as he didn't even shake his hand or acknowledge his presence after the series. He just got up and left like he was taking break from laddering on his smurf account. I've heard plenty of koreans voice disagreement with Lilbow being in the top 16 because they don't think he deserved it. It wouldn't surprise me if the korean pro gamers felt the same and life's actions in the series give off that vibe.
If I was Life, I would also not shake hands with a guy I just knocked out in about 20 mins, especially when he speaks a language I am not familiar with.
If I was lilbow, I would have switched up my play and would have played way more safer. Made a fast MSC. Forge first. Goes to show he didn't practice.
A pro not playing his hardest against another pro... Now that's real disrespect.
On November 03 2015 13:14 RCCar wrote: CatZ just disappointed me so much with his post on reddit.
Why? It seemed to me like he understood at least in part why Lilbow did what he did. I mean, sure, he committed social media suicide by his comments, and he definitely disappointed a lot of people through his actions, but let's be honest, he was almost guaranteed to lose vs anyone except maybe hydra. So what do you do? Spend two months so that you MAYBE pull a game or two off of life, or do you put that time towards LotV in the hopes that you can get a jump on the other koreans?
You can't look at it from just the spectator's perspective; you have to also see it from his perspective.
EDIT: I'm not denying that his actions were "dishonourable," and they definitely should not be praised, but it is still a career for him, and SC 2 does not reward for playing "honourably." It rewards for winning, regardless of whether we liked seeing it or not.
If Life didn't know who Lilbow was before Blizzcon, he laughs at who he knows he is now.
What a pathetic excuse for a player, honestly.
Any bottom tier Korean player would KILL for the chance to play in Lilbow's spot for even the slightest chance of glory in front of the fans, and this kid throws it away because he's more concerned with a vague future than any sense of integrity for the game or the community.
It takes a lot to fucking disgust me, but this honestly takes the fucking cake.
Lilbow is honestly just as a bad as someone who matchfixed to me now.
On November 03 2015 13:14 RCCar wrote: CatZ just disappointed me so much with his post on reddit.
Why? It seemed to me like he understood at least in part why Lilbow did what he did. I mean, sure, he committed social media suicide by his comments, and he definitely disappointed a lot of people through his actions, but let's be honest, he was almost guaranteed to lose vs anyone except maybe hydra. So what do you do? Spend two months so that you MAYBE pull a game or two off of life, or do you put that time towards LotV in the hopes that you can get a jump on the other koreans?
You can't look at it from just the spectator's perspective; you have to also see it from his perspective.
EDIT: I'm not denying that his actions were "dishonourable," and they definitely should not be praised, but it is still a career for him, and SC 2 does not reward for playing "honourably." It rewards for winning, regardless of whether we liked seeing it or not.
And lilbow definitely is playing to win amright? Hope a month of playing a beta game gets him some big bucks in Dreamhack. Loved him playing LoL at Blizzcon as well hahaha
On November 03 2015 12:17 Larkin wrote: More disappointed in Life for cheesing him. He had just as much responsibility as Lilbow did to put on an entertaining show.
Game 1 was legit Life style Zerg. I am unsure even if lilbow knew it was coming(which, if he ever watched Life play, should have known it would have come sometime) would have been able to deflect it. Of course, lilbow didn't because he didn't practice anything.
Game 2 was the only cheese I could call a cheese in the game. I think Life found lilbow's lack of scouting kinda easy to abuse. Again, this is natural progamer mindset, wouldn't call Life out for this.
Game 3 was Life going "Please defend this Lilbow, you are the sole foreign hope and if you just made- Oh nvm"
Game 1 and 2, I agree. But game 3 was life abusing what he knew about the previous 2 games: Lilbow always puts his gateway at the nat rather than his main ramp. Also, Life clearly disrespected Lilbow as he didn't even shake his hand or acknowledge his presence after the series. He just got up and left like he was taking break from laddering on his smurf account. I've heard plenty of koreans voice disagreement with Lilbow being in the top 16 because they don't think he deserved it. It wouldn't surprise me if the korean pro gamers felt the same and life's actions in the series give off that vibe.
I don't think you can call that part disrespect. Most of the games I saw the winner didn't acknowledge the loser, even Rogue and Maru.
This is just a really sad situation, and illustrates well the problem of having a scene composed largely of young men driven by social media. Just a big, mean, ugly circle of compounding nastiness.
I am disappointed in Lilbow for deciding to do as he did, and for reacting the way he has.
But I'm more saddened by the very strong possibly that his career and possibly his mental and emotional health as well is about to be destroyed by stupid internet comments and community rage.
At this point, I just pray everyone involved can get past this with minimum damage taken. There's no glory here.
Its hard to understand all this attention on Lilbow.
Why are all of us wasting time with a guy who needs to procrastinate in order to salvage whatever is left of his big ass ego? Its sad to see that foreign SC2 players time and time again seem to just throw away opportunities that many other progamers, both foreign and Korean, would desperately want.
He just wears his mouth on his sleeve, and with this uncanny move of stupidity, is now in my eyes no longer a championship caliber player, but a whiner who despite being presented a gift that many others also wanted, and in terms of mechanical skill and mentality shouldn't really have had it in the first place decided that saving his bloated mentality was more important after losing.
If he had the presence of mind to just keep quiet or say the traditional 'I tried my best, but its unfortunate I couldn't show more", then no flak would have been given.
But yeah, the korean side of me just laughs at this juvenile pro-gamer that can't hold his losses unless he blurts his teenage feelings out into public disgrace.
Players don't owe shit to anyone. So sick of hearing all those entitled pricks saying X player behaviour is disrespectful towards the fans; or that they should do Y or Z because of shit. People saying Lilbow should have given his spot away if he was not going to prepare well enough. "lack of respect for the most prestogious event of the year", what a load of nonsense....
It's an individual competition. If you get to whichever point you get to, it's because you've earned it, it's the spot you deserve. You don't just hand a spot to someone else, it's not the "Care Bare association for not good enough player that couldn't make it but are nice so let's give them a free spot". The 17th player on the list is undeserving of even putting a foot in the WCS global 16 men finals. period. That's just what competition is. And any of the 16 players who earned their spot isn't required to do anything else than qualifying to still deserve their spot. They can still come as unprepared as you may imagine it doesn't take anything from what they did to get there before. They don't even have to practice, which shows how much more e-sports has to go to meet established sports standards in which athletes get fined when they miss training, because it's in their contract and in this case they owe their employer to be present at every training session. When you are alone competing in an individual competition for a prize it's very different, the tournaments organizers are not your employers and you don't owe them anything else than respecting their rules. You think what Lilbow did is bad for them? It's not. This public shaming is ridiculous.
A player doesn't owe his fans or the viewers anything, it's not like you are doing someone a favour by watching/cheering for him; you do it for yourself to entertain yourself and that's a fair exchange.
A quick 3-0 doesn't sound that shocking vs Life, one of the best Koreans ever, even if Lilbow did practice a lot and lost in similar fashion it would not have been a huge surprise.
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
"i'll give Lilbow the benefit of the doubt" ,"You, as a fan of Lilbow, have every right to be upset" Get off your high horse. It really seems like you directly came out of a recent South Park episode with all the PC stuff going on.
seriously though, the sheer emotion in your post is bewildering. Stephano used to brag about how little he prepared too, and I don't remember any witch hunt propaganda back then. The only thing this OP has me wondering is what Lilbow really did to spur you into pitchfork wielding action? And please don't tell me its blatant disregard for your viewing pleasure. No rational adult reacts the way you did because some stranger didn't meet their standards of trying hard.
So.. Lilbow chose to not practice HOTS, a game he is definitely pretty good at, but instead chose to practice LOTV, which was still in beta and subject to changes before actual release. In the end he will get crushed in LOTV by any korean who starts to practice LOTV after the actual release when a clear meta will emerge, while he will probably never get to play in another Blizzcon in his career and has alienated most of his fans for good; I hope it was worth it. I'm just a bit sad that someone a lot more deserving, like Hyun, didn't get his spot, and we, as fans and viewers were robbed of the opportunity to see a real match between 2 real players who lay it on the line, instead of a worthless stand-in who just came to collect his $5000.
On November 03 2015 14:30 Joedaddy wrote: Go home Lycan. You're drunk.
seriously though, the sheer emotion in your post is bewildering. Stephano used to brag about how little he prepared too, and I don't remember any witch hunt propaganda back then. The only thing this OP has me wondering is what Lilbow really did to spur you into pitchfork wielding action? And please don't tell me its blatant disregard for your viewing pleasure. No rational adult reacts the way you did because some stranger didn't meet their standards of trying hard.
What an absurd OP.
Stephano was not as big as lilbow. Lilbow could have made history and then threw it away. Are you really going to continue to call him LilBonaparte and honor him as a progamer after he showed his "love" for the game? No progamer blames his loss on cheese when he played the game less than a casual. I don't understand how you guys, as fans, think that only unconditional love is your only option. Lilbow, as a public person, has an obligation, yes, he does have an obligation no matter how servile you guys are, to the fans to try to show his best. Never liked Stephano because he kept on saying that he didn't practice either, but notice Stephano actually did play like he practiced a lot and got pretty ok results. I always thought Stephano was half bluffing because he also wanted to let down the guards of his opponent.
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Players don't owe shit to anyone. So sick of hearing all those entitled pricks saying X player behaviour is disrespectful towards the fans; or that they should do Y or Z because of shit. People saying Lilbow should have given his spot away if he was not going to prepare well enough. "lack of respect for the most prestogious event of the year", what a load of nonsense....
It's an individual competition. If you get to whichever point you get to, it's because you've earned it, it's the spot you deserve. You don't just hand a spot to someone else, it's not the "Care Bare association for not good enough player that couldn't make it but are nice so let's give them a free spot". The 17th player on the list is undeserving of even putting a foot in the WCS global 16 men finals. period. That's just what competition is. And any of the 16 players who earned their spot isn't required to do anything else than qualifying to still deserve their spot. They can still come as unprepared as you may imagine it doesn't take anything from what they did to get there before. They don't even have to practice, which shows how much more e-sports has to go to meet established sports standards in which athletes get fined when they miss training, because it's in their contract and in this case they owe their employer to be present at every training session. When you are alone competing in an individual competition for a prize it's very different, the tournaments organizers are not your employers and you don't owe them anything else than respecting their rules. You think what Lilbow did is bad for them? It's not. This public shaming is ridiculous.
A player doesn't owe his fans or the viewers anything, it's not like you are doing someone a favour by watching/cheering for him; you do it for yourself to entertain yourself and that's a fair exchange.
A quick 3-0 doesn't sound that shocking vs Life, one of the best Koreans ever, even if Lilbow did practice a lot and lost in similar fashion it would not have been a huge surprise.
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
"i'll give Lilbow the benefit of the doubt" ,"You, as a fan of Lilbow, have every right to be upset" get off your high horse. It really seems like you directly came out of a recent South Park episode with all the PC stuff going on.
Oh yeah setting a new record for the quickest elimination in Blizzcon totally deserving to play there lol. I supported lilbow because foreign hope. Lilbow did deserve to play at Blizzcon, and really had a good chance to win vs Life, but he just kicked the bucket on himself and I don't think a guy who played 2 games of hots to prepare deserves a spot in Blizzcon.
On November 03 2015 14:30 Joedaddy wrote: Go home Lycan. You're drunk.
seriously though, the sheer emotion in your post is bewildering. Stephano used to brag about how little he prepared too, and I don't remember any witch hunt propaganda back then. The only thing this OP has me wondering is what Lilbow really did to spur you into pitchfork wielding action? And please don't tell me its blatant disregard for your viewing pleasure. No rational adult reacts the way you did because some stranger didn't meet their standards of trying hard.
What an absurd OP.
Are you really going to continue to call him LilBonaparte and honor him as a progamer after he showed his "love" for the game?
Yeah sure.
I mean, I would never call him LilBonaparte, as it is utterly ridiculous, but on the sentiment, yeah.
Sounds to me more like a sore loser than anything, which only makes it more entertaining for the audience. Not the biggest deal, but then again his critics don't owe him anything either. Taking flak is part and parcel of being in the scene, and he set himself up for it.
On November 03 2015 13:04 thecrazymunchkin wrote: To flip this around, consider the fact that there are currently four protosses remaining in the bracket, one of whom Life is guaranteed to play should he beat INnoVation. Why the hell would he reveal anything that he doesn't need to?
Exactly, how could anyone be entitled enough to say Life should take negative ev decisions in order to please the audience?
On November 03 2015 15:13 Foxbat wrote: Even if he had practiced 18 hours a day with the time he had, he still would have lost to life. So... who cares?
He may have lost or he may have won, we will never know. The point is that foreigners essentially have the system designed to give them the best chances of making it to Blizzon. LilBow was given the chance to play in BlizCon by a combination of this and his own skill, he would never have made it there if Koreans were allowed to play in whatever region they wished.
LilBow ignoring this opportunity reduces the justification for the current system which attempts to promote foreign players. If the foreigners are all going to put in zero effort in the WCS finals at blizzcon, why not let the koreans who will put up a decent show have 16 out of 16 slots? If this is done, the best 16 players are more likely to be playing/getting the money they deserve.
I don't actually want the above scenario at all but events like this make it very hard to argue against.
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
You become a champion in your mind long before you do in real life. Not everyone who has that mindset becomes a champion, but no one without that mindset has ever become one (in anything meaningful).
Thus, anytime a champion loses, they externalize why they lost. They believe they are the best, bar none, and the reason they lost isn't because the weren't the best it was an outside factor. You can call it an excuse, but if you make no excuses and just say the other guy is better, then you don't believe in yourself enough to be a champion. You have to know you are the best. And when champions win, they internalize why they won and it reinforces their belief they are the best.
Sports psychology tells us this is the best way for champions to act. Check it out.
Lilbow is a true champion, he believes in himself. He is doing the right thing by externalizing why he lost. And if he lost because he didn't care about HOTS, that is fine too. True champions don't care what anyone else thinks, all that matter is how they see themselves.
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Players don't owe shit to anyone. So sick of hearing all those entitled pricks saying X player behaviour is disrespectful towards the fans; or that they should do Y or Z because of shit. People saying Lilbow should have given his spot away if he was not going to prepare well enough. "lack of respect for the most prestogious event of the year", what a load of nonsense....
It's an individual competition. If you get to whichever point you get to, it's because you've earned it, it's the spot you deserve. You don't just hand a spot to someone else, it's not the "Care Bare association for not good enough player that couldn't make it but are nice so let's give them a free spot". The 17th player on the list is undeserving of even putting a foot in the WCS global 16 men finals. period. That's just what competition is. And any of the 16 players who earned their spot isn't required to do anything else than qualifying to still deserve their spot. They can still come as unprepared as you may imagine it doesn't take anything from what they did to get there before. They don't even have to practice, which shows how much more e-sports has to go to meet established sports standards in which athletes get fined when they miss training, because it's in their contract and in this case they owe their employer to be present at every training session. When you are alone competing in an individual competition for a prize it's very different, the tournaments organizers are not your employers and you don't owe them anything else than respecting their rules. You think what Lilbow did is bad for them? It's not. This public shaming is ridiculous.
A player doesn't owe his fans or the viewers anything, it's not like you are doing someone a favour by watching/cheering for him; you do it for yourself to entertain yourself and that's a fair exchange.
A quick 3-0 doesn't sound that shocking vs Life, one of the best Koreans ever, even if Lilbow did practice a lot and lost in similar fashion it would not have been a huge surprise.
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
"i'll give Lilbow the benefit of the doubt" ,"You, as a fan of Lilbow, have every right to be upset" Get off your high horse. It really seems like you directly came out of a recent South Park episode with all the PC stuff going on.
you're saying someone who earns a salary as an entertainer (athletes are entertainers) doesn't owe his fans anything? or are you saying someone that earns a salary as a competitor doesn't need to try to compete?
On November 03 2015 14:00 Lunareste wrote: If Life didn't know who Lilbow was before Blizzcon, he laughs at who he knows he is now.
What a pathetic excuse for a player, honestly.
Any bottom tier Korean player would KILL for the chance to play in Lilbow's spot for even the slightest chance of glory in front of the fans, and this kid throws it away because he's more concerned with a vague future than any sense of integrity for the game or the community.
It takes a lot to fucking disgust me, but this honestly takes the fucking cake. Lilbow is honestly just as a bad as someone who matchfixed to me now.
You heard it here first folks, not practicing is as bad as match fixing.
On November 03 2015 12:17 Larkin wrote: More disappointed in Life for cheesing him. He had just as much responsibility as Lilbow did to put on an entertaining show.
Rofl, these posts.
Just saw the games just now. There's something beautiful about a good 3-0 most people just can't appreciate. A 3-0 can be just as good as a 3-2.
Anyway, it's easy enough for people to judge, but walk in a man's shoes before you judge him. Spending months of your time studying a dead game for nothing more than "honor" is something I doubt any of the haters (even pros) would ever do. His twitter comments were admittedly stupid, oh well.
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Players don't owe shit to anyone. So sick of hearing all those entitled pricks saying X player behaviour is disrespectful towards the fans; or that they should do Y or Z because of shit. People saying Lilbow should have given his spot away if he was not going to prepare well enough. "lack of respect for the most prestogious event of the year", what a load of nonsense....
It's an individual competition. If you get to whichever point you get to, it's because you've earned it, it's the spot you deserve. You don't just hand a spot to someone else, it's not the "Care Bare association for not good enough player that couldn't make it but are nice so let's give them a free spot". The 17th player on the list is undeserving of even putting a foot in the WCS global 16 men finals. period. That's just what competition is. And any of the 16 players who earned their spot isn't required to do anything else than qualifying to still deserve their spot. They can still come as unprepared as you may imagine it doesn't take anything from what they did to get there before. They don't even have to practice, which shows how much more e-sports has to go to meet established sports standards in which athletes get fined when they miss training, because it's in their contract and in this case they owe their employer to be present at every training session. When you are alone competing in an individual competition for a prize it's very different, the tournaments organizers are not your employers and you don't owe them anything else than respecting their rules. You think what Lilbow did is bad for them? It's not. This public shaming is ridiculous.
A player doesn't owe his fans or the viewers anything, it's not like you are doing someone a favour by watching/cheering for him; you do it for yourself to entertain yourself and that's a fair exchange.
A quick 3-0 doesn't sound that shocking vs Life, one of the best Koreans ever, even if Lilbow did practice a lot and lost in similar fashion it would not have been a huge surprise.
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
"i'll give Lilbow the benefit of the doubt" ,"You, as a fan of Lilbow, have every right to be upset" Get off your high horse. It really seems like you directly came out of a recent South Park episode with all the PC stuff going on.
Oh please; come off of it.
The only reason that Lilbow even got to go to Blizzcon is because he benefitted from the Region Locking that the fan base pressured Blizzard into implementing.
Without it, he wouldn't have done anything. hardly anyone outside of France would even know who he is, I know for sure I wouldn't. Foreign players don't get to bitch about not having fair opportunities to compete with the "infrastructure of Korea" and then turn around and say they don't owe the fans anything when it's the fans that give them the very opportunities they ask for.
Personally, I'd like to do away with the charity that is WCS premier league but I can understand why a lot of fans want it. But as long as it's here it needs to be acknowledged that it is a charity and when the pros are receiving charity they have an obligation on their end to hold up in order to warrant receiving it.
On November 03 2015 14:30 Joedaddy wrote: Go home Lycan. You're drunk.
seriously though, the sheer emotion in your post is bewildering. Stephano used to brag about how little he prepared too, and I don't remember any witch hunt propaganda back then. The only thing this OP has me wondering is what Lilbow really did to spur you into pitchfork wielding action? And please don't tell me its blatant disregard for your viewing pleasure. No rational adult reacts the way you did because some stranger didn't meet their standards of trying hard.
What an absurd OP.
Stephano was not as big as lilbow. Lilbow could have made history and then threw it away. Are you really going to continue to call him LilBonaparte and honor him as a progamer after he showed his "love" for the game? No progamer blames his loss on cheese when he played the game less than a casual. I don't understand how you guys, as fans, think that only unconditional love is your only option. Lilbow, as a public person, has an obligation, yes, he does have an obligation no matter how servile you guys are, to the fans to try to show his best. Never liked Stephano because he kept on saying that he didn't practice either, but notice Stephano actually did play like he practiced a lot and got pretty ok results. I always thought Stephano was half bluffing because he also wanted to let down the guards of his opponent.
Stephano has his gimmick, just luck a wrestler. "I haven't practiced for this ", oh yeah so what are those 500 games on your smurf bro ? shhht. He practiced a lot but just had this relaxed persona which we all liked.
Lilbow is young, you guys are just being over critical my god. Everyone makes mistake, he just made on on both his approach to the game and his public relationship management. Its not the end of the world relax, i know we were all apprehending this and wanted to see a dominant lilbow instead of a bitchy one but stress can make the best of us look like fools.
Just let it slide and let time heal the wounds, if he ever do this kind of retarded shit again then turn against him. But you can't really blame someone for one mistake...How many time did your mother forgave you ?
On November 03 2015 14:30 Joedaddy wrote: Go home Lycan. You're drunk.
seriously though, the sheer emotion in your post is bewildering. Stephano used to brag about how little he prepared too, and I don't remember any witch hunt propaganda back then. The only thing this OP has me wondering is what Lilbow really did to spur you into pitchfork wielding action? And please don't tell me its blatant disregard for your viewing pleasure. No rational adult reacts the way you did because some stranger didn't meet their standards of trying hard.
What an absurd OP.
Stephano was not as big as lilbow. Lilbow could have made history and then threw it away. Are you really going to continue to call him LilBonaparte and honor him as a progamer after he showed his "love" for the game? No progamer blames his loss on cheese when he played the game less than a casual. I don't understand how you guys, as fans, think that only unconditional love is your only option. Lilbow, as a public person, has an obligation, yes, he does have an obligation no matter how servile you guys are, to the fans to try to show his best. Never liked Stephano because he kept on saying that he didn't practice either, but notice Stephano actually did play like he practiced a lot and got pretty ok results. I always thought Stephano was half bluffing because he also wanted to let down the guards of his opponent.
Stephano has his gimmick, just luck a wrestler. "I haven't practiced for this ", oh yeah so what are those 500 games on your smurf bro ? shhht. He practiced a lot but just had this relaxed persona which we all liked.
Lilbow is young, you guys are just being over critical my god. Everyone makes mistake, he just made on on both his approach to the game and his public relationship management. Its not the end of the world relax, i know we were all apprehending this and wanted to see a dominant lilbow instead of a bitchy one but stress can make the best of us look like fools.
Just let it slide and let time heal the wounds, if he ever do this kind of retarded shit again then turn against him. But you can't really blame someone for one mistake...How many time did your mother forgave you ?
People will be over it in a couple days as with most drama. Unless he does it again or wins his next tourney or something then it'll come up again.
Mothers are a little more obliged to be forgiving than a random fan too
Lilbow is not too exciting of a player. He's far from being a foreign hope, he won a rather weak WCS, cool, congratulations. I never cheered for him and won't do so in the future.
His behaviour however is dumb. He had the opportunity to probably play the biggest tournament that there is. And instead of doing his best, he slipped and fell into a swamp of shit.
My disinterest however turned into a severe lack of respect. He should drink a beer with Naniwa.
On November 03 2015 17:59 BreAKerTV wrote: I'm interested in hearing what the Korean fans are saying in regards to what Lilbow has said.
On November 03 2015 12:39 DCStarcraftGall wrote: The funny thing about lilbow is, that he had generated an incredible amount of positive comment in Korean Communities as well. As I might have explained in a past topic (WCS Region Lock), many people believed that the foreign community can flourish when left alone, and Lilbow was the best example everyone could give.
I am sure with this kind of sentiment back in Korea, the foreign sentiment for Lilbow wouldn't even compare.
Just know, whoever is defending him at this point, that you are agreeing to be completely fine with him taking every foreigner's dream, every foreigner's hope, and spitting into it, crumpling it up into a little tiny ball, and throwing it in the trash can.
I have read some facebook comments stating that the Koreans would have leaked lilbow's builds if he had chosen to practice with them. Korean progamers have more honour than that. Before they question us on ours, I would like them to think about how Lilbow threw away his honor as a professional gamer.
Lilbow first says he practiced 2 HOTS games. Then he declares he lost only because Life cheesed. Then, he declares he lost because nobody would practice with him in HOTS. And finally, he blocks TLO.
People hated Life so much for his plays until lilbow came out and tweeted for whatever braindead thoughts he was having. Now, Lilbow is just another whining foreigner.
Compare him to FanTaSy, who, amidst all odds that herO would dominate 3-0, actually took an insane first game and lost others but making it look so close.
Compare him to Polt and Hydra, (who, by the way, beat Dream who beat Life who beat Lilbow) who clearly came prepared with clear builds in their mind, knew how their opponent would play, and crushed them in the end.
Remind me to say that Lilbow beat Hydra back in WCS. Guess who went up to Ro8 and who didn't?
Lilbow now keeps resorting to 'Life cheesed me', after building not a single forge nor mothership core. If Lilbow sincerely thought he would have a chance vs Life based on some mid game build orders that he wrote down after 2 games of HOTS, he just disrespected the entire SC2 scene.
Maybe, Lilbow should stop playing LoL and get practicing. Really hope he comes through in Dreamhack and proves us wrong that foreigners have no professionalism in ESports. Or maybe I should cheer on Snute, Mana, TLO, or Bunny. They would have played their hearts out.
I wonder what HyuN was thinking, and Dark, and every other progamer who was following this entire scene.
Go look at PartinG's tweet after he lost.
We're not your fans anymore Lilbow.
Private comment: The tweet that made sd_andeh sick? I was the one who asked him that. It made me sick too and I quit tweeting him after that. I wanted something that would restore my faith in him, that 2 games of HOTS was a really bad comment because he was angry and he actually played 2000 or something. Really wanted him to get through, but I don't think he deserves anything anymore.
Pretty sure DCSG said this is him translating from a Korean forum.
When people wonder, yet another time, why nobody cares about SC2 anymore, I will link to this thread. I will link to this moment where the collective mind of spectators decided it was more important to talk about a player that got crushed instead of talking about the last event of HotS.
On November 03 2015 18:13 Otolia wrote: When people wonder, yet another time, why nobody cares about SC2 anymore, I will link to this thread. I will link to this moment where the collective mind of spectators decided it was more important to talk about a player that got crushed instead of talking about the last event of HotS.
Lilbow is not the disgrace here. We are.
You are getting it wrong. As was stated many times before - this is not about Lilbow not winning. This is about Lilbow not caring and showing it.
He handled it wrongly, he made a mistake and this would happen to every other professional sportsman(or sport team) out there.
On November 03 2015 18:13 Otolia wrote: When people wonder, yet another time, why nobody cares about SC2 anymore, I will link to this thread. I will link to this moment where the collective mind of spectators decided it was more important to talk about a player that got crushed instead of talking about the last event of HotS.
Lilbow is not the disgrace here. We are.
I'm pretty sure it was Lilbow who decided that the last event of HotS is not important. This is still not about him getting crushed, but I guess your fanboy glasses are too thick to see that.
it is a fact that he will never get these moments in life again (seriously no pun intended). His participation in this tournament was like him gaining the experience of everyday school life. It just doesn't happen again, even in competition.
he owes it to noone but himself. instead of caring for something he cares about, he neglected it and took the easier pathway. there's nothing stopping you from practicing for both games at once, not even the idea of having only ladder heroes to play against and not even the idea of strictly studying VODs.
as the combination of everything goes, the most you'll get out of him is a standard apology. i'm sorry,i made the wrong judgment and acted out of non-discipline. whether or not he will feel the words of his apology in more than writing is quite irrelevant imo. if he doesn't straddle the pressure and perform more than every opponent (of whom you can be sure will do homework and practice hard to defeat him) at the beginning of the new xpac, his career is essentially over. nobody rebounds from that.
On November 03 2015 18:13 Otolia wrote: When people wonder, yet another time, why nobody cares about SC2 anymore, I will link to this thread. I will link to this moment where the collective mind of spectators decided it was more important to talk about a player that got crushed instead of talking about the last event of HotS.
Lilbow is not the disgrace here. We are.
You are getting it wrong. As was stated many times before - this is not about Lilbow not winning. This is about Lilbow not caring and showing it.
He handled it wrongly, he made a mistake and this would happen to every other professional sportsman(or sport team) out there.
I'm not getting it wrong. The SC2 scene is weak and pathetic and people like you are the reason why. That was the message of my post.
I couldn't care less about Lilbow's actions, I didn't even watch the game. I didn't watch SC2 since last WCS and I'm not even following the results beyond consulting LP from time to time. But I guess, like Lilbow, you prefer excuses and diversions to accepting the nefarious impact your actions have. Because no matter what Lilbow do or did, he is but one person whose reach is limited.
On November 03 2015 18:13 Otolia wrote: When people wonder, yet another time, why nobody cares about SC2 anymore, I will link to this thread. I will link to this moment where the collective mind of spectators decided it was more important to talk about a player that got crushed instead of talking about the last event of HotS.
Lilbow is not the disgrace here. We are.
You are getting it wrong. As was stated many times before - this is not about Lilbow not winning. This is about Lilbow not caring and showing it.
He handled it wrongly, he made a mistake and this would happen to every other professional sportsman(or sport team) out there.
I'm not getting it wrong. The SC2 scene is weak and pathetic and people like you are the reason why. That was the message of my post.
I couldn't care less about Lilbow's actions, I didn't even watch the game. I didn't watch SC2 since last WCS and I'm not even following the results beyond consulting LP from time to time. But I guess, like Lilbow, you prefer excuses and diversions to accepting the nefarious impact your actions have. Because no matter what Lilbow do or did, he is but one person whose reach is limited.
I prefer professionalism before amateurism when we are talking about professional player. That's all.
Edit> Also, "couldn't care less" means you actually care a little
Don't want to join the hate train here, but it doesn't make sense to me. HotS is the game where foreigners really have a chance to beat Koreans. LotV will be technically way more demanding so the Korean skill gap will be even further away.
On November 03 2015 18:13 Otolia wrote: When people wonder, yet another time, why nobody cares about SC2 anymore, I will link to this thread. I will link to this moment where the collective mind of spectators decided it was more important to talk about a player that got crushed instead of talking about the last event of HotS.
Lilbow is not the disgrace here. We are.
You are getting it wrong. As was stated many times before - this is not about Lilbow not winning. This is about Lilbow not caring and showing it.
He handled it wrongly, he made a mistake and this would happen to every other professional sportsman(or sport team) out there.
I'm not getting it wrong. The SC2 scene is weak and pathetic and people like you are the reason why. That was the message of my post.
I couldn't care less about Lilbow's actions, I didn't even watch the game. I didn't watch SC2 since last WCS and I'm not even following the results beyond consulting LP from time to time. But I guess, like Lilbow, you prefer excuses and diversions to accepting the nefarious impact your actions have. Because no matter what Lilbow do or did, he is but one person whose reach is limited.
I prefer professionalism before amateurism when we are talking about professional player. That's all.
Edit> Also, "couldn't care less" means you actually care a little
On November 03 2015 18:13 Otolia wrote: When people wonder, yet another time, why nobody cares about SC2 anymore, I will link to this thread. I will link to this moment where the collective mind of spectators decided it was more important to talk about a player that got crushed instead of talking about the last event of HotS.
Lilbow is not the disgrace here. We are.
You are getting it wrong. As was stated many times before - this is not about Lilbow not winning. This is about Lilbow not caring and showing it.
He handled it wrongly, he made a mistake and this would happen to every other professional sportsman(or sport team) out there.
I'm not getting it wrong. The SC2 scene is weak and pathetic and people like you are the reason why. That was the message of my post.
I couldn't care less about Lilbow's actions, I didn't even watch the game. I didn't watch SC2 since last WCS and I'm not even following the results beyond consulting LP from time to time. But I guess, like Lilbow, you prefer excuses and diversions to accepting the nefarious impact your actions have. Because no matter what Lilbow do or did, he is but one person whose reach is limited.
I prefer professionalism before amateurism when we are talking about professional player. That's all.
Edit> Also, "couldn't care less" means you actually care a little
You got it wrong. "couldn't care less" means he absolutely could not care any less, meaning his level of caring is already zero. The common typo that people say is "I could care less" and then your remark would apply, but not here.
On November 03 2015 18:45 Otolia wrote: I couldn't care less about Lilbow's actions, I didn't even watch the game. I didn't watch SC2 since last WCS and I'm not even following the results beyond consulting LP from time to time.
On November 03 2015 05:25 DSK wrote: Ultimately it was disappointing, but I found it entertaining nonetheless, hearing Life shit talk Lilbow before seeing him walk all over Lilbow.
Agree. That was so hilarious how Life showed a lack of respect for Lilbow It was entertaining. People want to see a show, trash talks, direspect. But behind, they are true professionals, Life knew very well Lilbow even if he said "Lilbow who ?" in pre game interview. For the serie between Lilbow and Life, I don't know. I think Lilbow knew Life has gone to cheese him all serie long, especially after game 1 so he might have done better opening or more scoot. His behaviour, or his lack of motivation can diserve him but I can't blame him. ATM maybe he is the best foreigner, but he has to secure his status. I think this blizzcon came to quick for him. He didn't show enough to play seriously with the others 15 best players in the world, so I understand his choice to play LOTV. Furthermore I think the others 15 guys already start to play LOTV as I saw Polt streamed on it few weeks ago, but as they play all day long, they can play on LOTV and HOTS.
On November 03 2015 18:13 Otolia wrote: When people wonder, yet another time, why nobody cares about SC2 anymore, I will link to this thread. I will link to this moment where the collective mind of spectators decided it was more important to talk about a player that got crushed instead of talking about the last event of HotS.
Lilbow is not the disgrace here. We are.
You are getting it wrong. As was stated many times before - this is not about Lilbow not winning. This is about Lilbow not caring and showing it.
He handled it wrongly, he made a mistake and this would happen to every other professional sportsman(or sport team) out there.
I'm not getting it wrong. The SC2 scene is weak and pathetic and people like you are the reason why. That was the message of my post.
I couldn't care less about Lilbow's actions, I didn't even watch the game. I didn't watch SC2 since last WCS and I'm not even following the results beyond consulting LP from time to time. But I guess, like Lilbow, you prefer excuses and diversions to accepting the nefarious impact your actions have. Because no matter what Lilbow do or did, he is but one person whose reach is limited.
I prefer professionalism before amateurism when we are talking about professional player. That's all.
Edit> Also, "couldn't care less" means you actually care a little
You got it wrong. "couldn't care less" means he absolutely could not care any less, meaning his level of caring is already zero. The common typo that people say is "I could care less" and then your remark would apply, but not here.
Then there's an error in my translation, never mind.
If I had to play against life in the first round i'd probably just hide in the bathroom crying. lilbow was the one who qualified, he was allowed to make the decisions, I very much doubt he gives a shit if casters or retired pro gamers question his choices.
lilbow has the talent. he will come back strong and be a force in LOTV if that is what he chooses to do.
On November 03 2015 19:13 KelsierSC wrote: If I had to play against life in the first round i'd probably just hide in the bathroom crying. lilbow was the one who qualified, he was allowed to make the decisions, I very much doubt he gives a shit if casters or retired pro gamers question his choices.
lilbow has the talent. he will come back strong and be a force in LOTV if that is what he chooses to do.
Actually that is and isn't right at the same time. The true professional can prepare for the next game and just ignore Blizzcon, that's true. But the true professional is NOT vocal about it! That's the difference. His wording of his attitude is wrong, not what he's done
I don't think people here are being too aggressive or trying to crucify him, as somebody mentioned.
Lilbow made a very bad mistake in PR, and it is within everybody's rights to speak their mind about their disappointment and that will potential impact that rash action will have foreign scene and region lock.
However, I do hope that he learns something about professionalism and respect from this, or at least, common sense to not say something like this aloud.
On November 03 2015 19:18 ybjoony wrote: I don't think people here are being too aggressive or trying to crucify him, as somebody mentioned.
Lilbow made a very bad mistake in PR, and it is within everybody's rights to speak their mind about their disappointment and that will potential impact that rash action will have foreign scene and region lock.
However, I do hope that he learns something about professionalism and respect from this, or at least, common sense to not say something like this aloud.
If he starts winning again it doesn't really matter what "PR mistakes" he makes.
You guys know that they contacted all the gaming houses in Korea, but they all declined to train HOTS with Lilbow? Non of you guys have been in his situation and aren't even progamers. This is his job and he is doing what is in his best financial interest and best for his future career. His decision was selfish, definitely, but when you really feel you will have no chance of beating a player like Life and no motivation to play a game you don't enjoy anymore, combined with virtually no decent practice partners (I know some offered to help him, but we don't even know who these players were and if they could even take a map off of a player like Life) then it's very understandable.
I agree that he shouldn't have talked about not practicing, he said so to protect his ego, and it's admittedly childish, but people should try to understand him before jumping on the bandwagon and bashing him. What if he had trained hard and spent hours of practicing for this, and then he would've been crushed either way. He saved himself a lot of disappointment and time by not even trying something, which to him, the chances of winning, seemed not worth the effort. It's easy to call it a "loser mentality", but from what he has achieved so far, he is pretty far from having a "loser mentality".
On November 03 2015 11:27 CursOr wrote: Here is my thought.
Lilbow was afraid. Not afraid of Life or afraid of losing, because he would never be as good as he is if he had these fears. He was just afraid of trying REALLY hard, and still coming up 0-3. Now at least, it has some validity and he saves face.
I know this fear because it is the same (sad) reason I am not masters. I piddle around against AI and ladder every so often, but never sit down and say OKAY for this month I am going to bust my ass and try to get masters. Because what if I cant? What if I really try and I just can't then I'm just bad or something.
I totally understand why he did not want to try. It's scary to give your all and to come up short. That is the same reason Stephano always had his excuses. You just undersell everything then its okay to lose.
No one is going to say, "I've been training really hard, and I've put my whole life into this for a month" and then get 0-3'd? Ouch.
The only foreigner who would do this is Snute, and that is why he is so loved! I don't blame Lilbow, but I would have loved to see him move to Korea for a month and play smurf Korean account and ladder or something to train. Even at the risk that this would expose his practice to the Koreans, at least he would have tried. O well.
I think he could have won. I think he was good enough, when giving 100% effort, to have a 30 or 40% chance against Life. I guess we will never know.
I dont think he was afraid, but your analysis is right. Giving 100% effort he could get a 30-40% chance vs life at best. So why not focus on LotV, get really good at that, and crush the tournaments after that. The payoff there is far greater since his chance of winning R1 was so low. It's a disappointing stance from the spectator point of view, but understandable from his point of view.
Is it really that hard to do both though? He had a lot of time to practice. I can understand his decision but I have a hard time agreeing with it. For his own sake that is. He tweeted before the match that he was nervous. This reminds me of being nervous for a test I didn't practice for back at school. It feels so much better to be prepared for such a thing and if you fail; Not to have even tried felt/ feels way worse (to me) than just failing.
Sure, Life was the favorite and the practice circumstances weren't ideal but
Ahhh TLO and all the hate train on this thread, so prompt to judge people.
I don't blame Lilbow. He just did a PR mistake, but his choice is understandable.
You have Life in Ro16 and most likely Innovation in Ro8. You're in bad conditions to train properly, while they're in teams and whatnot. Would you REALLY throw all you have knowing it's pointless?
Dario, it's easy to say "You have a shitty mentality bla bla, foreigner too bad bla bla, gotta win now bla bla". At some point, you gotta look at the facts. You have games ahead that are hugely not in your favor. AND, it's even harder for you to train enough to "equalize" the odds. Considering all that, may as well accept it and move on.
If he would have said during the interview the usual bullshit : "I'm gonna try my best to put on a good show", even without training at all, everybody would have blamed Life for cheesing and this stupid shitstorm would never have happenned.
Guys, give him a break. Last time I checked, he won his ticket to get there and he doesn't owe you shit. He just made a PR mistake. You feel sad he got crushed ? Sure, me too. But that how it his and we can't blame him for that. I'm pretty sure he will learn from this mistake.
On November 03 2015 19:29 JayuSC2 wrote: You guys know that they contacted all the gaming houses in Korea, but they all declined to train HOTS with Lilbow? Non of you guys have been in his situation and aren't even progamers. This is his job and he is doing what is in his best financial interest and best for his future career. His decision was selfish, definitely, but when you really feel you will have no chance of beating a player like Life and no motivation to play a game you don't enjoy anymore, combined with virtually no decent practice partners (I know some offered to help him, but we don't even know who these players were and if they could even take a map off of a player like Life) then it's very understandable.
I agree that he shouldn't have talked about not practicing, he said so to protect his ego, and it's admittedly childish, but people should try to understand him before jumping on the bandwagon and bashing him. What if he had trained hard and spent hours of practicing for this, and then he would've been crushed either way. He saved himself a lot of disappointment and time by not even trying something, which to him, the chances of winning, seemed not worth the effort. It's easy to call it a "loser mentality", but from what he has achieved so far, he is pretty far from having a "loser mentality".
The decision is of course his to make. But judgment for his actions is also the prerogative of viewers and the community. You see, many here have mentioned that "what if he trained hard and still lost?". Well we will never know would we - because he did not train at all. Not training just to save yourself from disappointment sounds pretty close to a "loser mentality", simply since you have given up without even trying.
Think about it for a bit - one of the traits that we love and value in the greatest personalities in Starcraft - the Boxers and the Mvps of our sport, is that even when things are tough, when they are down 50 supply 10 minutes in, or when their wrists hurt, or when they are just too old to compete anymore... these guys just keep giving it their 100%.
Sorry, but Lilbow is the complete opposite of this.
i've done this. i've had a hard test and couldn't find proper study material or any one to study with and just went to the test blind. usually cause i didn't try hard enough...
if he really couldn't find anyone to practice with this highlights the problems in the foreign scene...
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
You become a champion in your mind long before you do in real life. Not everyone who has that mindset becomes a champion, but no one without that mindset has ever become one (in anything meaningful).
Thus, anytime a champion loses, they externalize why they lost. They believe they are the best, bar none, and the reason they lost isn't because the weren't the best it was an outside factor. You can call it an excuse, but if you make no excuses and just say the other guy is better, then you don't believe in yourself enough to be a champion. You have to know you are the best. And when champions win, they internalize why they won and it reinforces their belief they are the best.
Sports psychology tells us this is the best way for champions to act. Check it out.
Lilbow is a true champion, he believes in himself. He is doing the right thing by externalizing why he lost. And if he lost because he didn't care about HOTS, that is fine too. True champions don't care what anyone else thinks, all that matter is how they see themselves.
How can he be a winner when he lost the viewers respect and the tournament itself? He is not a winner until he proved himself in lotv. Not to mention he felt it was impossible to beat innovation (forgive me if I rmb wrongly) plus his blame on life cheesing him out
People need to stop hating on Lilbow. It was the perfect decision as a professional to go and prepare the switch from HOTS to LOTV since his chances in winning against Life even with preperation are just okay. It gets him a Ro8 at Global Finals which obviously is an amazing success to him or any foreign player but so is being in the top 16 overall as well. It also grants him 2500$ more prize money.
He can easily achieve 2500$ when he is starting off Legacy in a really good shape as well as a chance to potentially win Dreamhack and if qualified for HSC even that event. A professional should always consider doing what gives him the most benefit in his career and it wasnt certainly not going all out practice to prepare vs Life.
For League of Legends check out the Worlds - even a team in the worlds could have prepared patch 5.21 instead of 5.18 if they have little to no chance to even make it out of the groups. I can understand and relate people didnt like it - Lilbow didnt play well, but Life also didnt put him in any basic situation where he could have showed his mid or lategame strategies.
And for people saying Lilbow could have skipped to play at all then: He fucking earned the spot - the only foreigner to earn it - why would he give it up?
On November 03 2015 20:07 NarutO wrote: He can easily achieve 2500$ when he is starting off Legacy in a really good shape as well as a chance to potentially win Dreamhack and if qualified for HSC even that event. A professional should always consider doing what gives him the most benefit in his career and it wasnt certainly not going all out practice to prepare vs Life.
There is nothing between 2 games and going all out? How much practice does it take to repel a 6pool?
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
You become a champion in your mind long before you do in real life. Not everyone who has that mindset becomes a champion, but no one without that mindset has ever become one (in anything meaningful).
Thus, anytime a champion loses, they externalize why they lost. They believe they are the best, bar none, and the reason they lost isn't because the weren't the best it was an outside factor. You can call it an excuse, but if you make no excuses and just say the other guy is better, then you don't believe in yourself enough to be a champion. You have to know you are the best. And when champions win, they internalize why they won and it reinforces their belief they are the best.
Sports psychology tells us this is the best way for champions to act. Check it out.
Lilbow is a true champion, he believes in himself. He is doing the right thing by externalizing why he lost. And if he lost because he didn't care about HOTS, that is fine too. True champions don't care what anyone else thinks, all that matter is how they see themselves.
How can he be a winner when he lost the viewers respect and the tournament itself? He is not a winner until he proved himself in lotv. Not to mention he felt it was impossible to beat innovation (forgive me if I rmb wrongly) plus his blame on life cheesing him out
Yeah I was pretty shocked when I read what the bronzeknee said. This is the first time in my life I am reading that apparently sports psychology states that giving up, and blaming external factors, is the proper mindset of a champion.
On November 03 2015 20:07 NarutO wrote: He can easily achieve 2500$ when he is starting off Legacy in a really good shape as well as a chance to potentially win Dreamhack and if qualified for HSC even that event. A professional should always consider doing what gives him the most benefit in his career and it wasnt certainly not going all out practice to prepare vs Life.
There is nothing between 2 games and going all out? How much practice does it take to repel a 6pool?
He did defend against the 6pool - he lost because he made a questionable decision and went for a 4 gate allin after. He should have taken his expand. I dont believe he came with 2 games prepared but even if he would have, it would still have been the right call as a professional to make.
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
You become a champion in your mind long before you do in real life. Not everyone who has that mindset becomes a champion, but no one without that mindset has ever become one (in anything meaningful).
Thus, anytime a champion loses, they externalize why they lost. They believe they are the best, bar none, and the reason they lost isn't because the weren't the best it was an outside factor. You can call it an excuse, but if you make no excuses and just say the other guy is better, then you don't believe in yourself enough to be a champion. You have to know you are the best. And when champions win, they internalize why they won and it reinforces their belief they are the best.
Sports psychology tells us this is the best way for champions to act. Check it out.
Lilbow is a true champion, he believes in himself. He is doing the right thing by externalizing why he lost. And if he lost because he didn't care about HOTS, that is fine too. True champions don't care what anyone else thinks, all that matter is how they see themselves.
How can he be a winner when he lost the viewers respect and the tournament itself? He is not a winner until he proved himself in lotv. Not to mention he felt it was impossible to beat innovation (forgive me if I rmb wrongly) plus his blame on life cheesing him out
He made top 16 - what do you want him to say? Yeah INnoVation who is that scrub? Its one point being confident - a whole other point being dumb.
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
You become a champion in your mind long before you do in real life. Not everyone who has that mindset becomes a champion, but no one without that mindset has ever become one (in anything meaningful).
Thus, anytime a champion loses, they externalize why they lost. They believe they are the best, bar none, and the reason they lost isn't because the weren't the best it was an outside factor. You can call it an excuse, but if you make no excuses and just say the other guy is better, then you don't believe in yourself enough to be a champion. You have to know you are the best. And when champions win, they internalize why they won and it reinforces their belief they are the best.
Sports psychology tells us this is the best way for champions to act. Check it out.
Lilbow is a true champion, he believes in himself. He is doing the right thing by externalizing why he lost. And if he lost because he didn't care about HOTS, that is fine too. True champions don't care what anyone else thinks, all that matter is how they see themselves.
How can he be a winner when he lost the viewers respect and the tournament itself? He is not a winner until he proved himself in lotv. Not to mention he felt it was impossible to beat innovation (forgive me if I rmb wrongly) plus his blame on life cheesing him out
He made top 16 - what do you want him to say? Yeah INnoVation who is that scrub? Its one point being confident - a whole other point being dumb.
The reigning WCS champion can't even tell that 12 pool isn't a proxy hatch in HotS. He's not even sad about losing on the biggest stage in Starcraft. He blames it all on Life.
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
You become a champion in your mind long before you do in real life. Not everyone who has that mindset becomes a champion, but no one without that mindset has ever become one (in anything meaningful).
Thus, anytime a champion loses, they externalize why they lost. They believe they are the best, bar none, and the reason they lost isn't because the weren't the best it was an outside factor. You can call it an excuse, but if you make no excuses and just say the other guy is better, then you don't believe in yourself enough to be a champion. You have to know you are the best. And when champions win, they internalize why they won and it reinforces their belief they are the best.
Sports psychology tells us this is the best way for champions to act. Check it out.
Lilbow is a true champion, he believes in himself. He is doing the right thing by externalizing why he lost. And if he lost because he didn't care about HOTS, that is fine too. True champions don't care what anyone else thinks, all that matter is how they see themselves.
How can he be a winner when he lost the viewers respect and the tournament itself? He is not a winner until he proved himself in lotv. Not to mention he felt it was impossible to beat innovation (forgive me if I rmb wrongly) plus his blame on life cheesing him out
He made top 16 - what do you want him to say? Yeah INnoVation who is that scrub? Its one point being confident - a whole other point being dumb.
But there is also being dumb, and just giving up. Obviously, anyone going against life or innovation would have to recognize that these are two of the best SC 2 players, and that it will be difficult. However, if you think that it is impossible (i.e. giving up), then this is in no way the mindset of a champ. Life and Innovation have all lost maps to foreigners before, so it is obviously doable.
On November 03 2015 20:07 NarutO wrote: People need to stop hating on Lilbow. It was the perfect decision as a professional to go and prepare the switch from HOTS to LOTV since his chances in winning against Life even with preperation are just okay. It gets him a Ro8 at Global Finals which obviously is an amazing success to him or any foreign player but so is being in the top 16 overall as well. It also grants him 2500$ more prize money.
He can easily achieve 2500$ when he is starting off Legacy in a really good shape as well as a chance to potentially win Dreamhack and if qualified for HSC even that event. A professional should always consider doing what gives him the most benefit in his career and it wasnt certainly not going all out practice to prepare vs Life.
For League of Legends check out the Worlds - even a team in the worlds could have prepared patch 5.21 instead of 5.18 if they have little to no chance to even make it out of the groups. I can understand and relate people didnt like it - Lilbow didnt play well, but Life also didnt put him in any basic situation where he could have showed his mid or lategame strategies.
And for people saying Lilbow could have skipped to play at all then: He fucking earned the spot - the only foreigner to earn it - why would he give it up?
I agree that some people should hold back a little in their critique but calling it "the perfect decision" is taking it a bit too far. He had a lot of time, it's not a given preparing more for Blizzcon would've certainly diminished his chances in LotV. Besides upcoming Dreamhack off-season is starting giving a lot of additional time to properly prepare for it and it's probably going to end up quite differently to the current game as well.
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
You become a champion in your mind long before you do in real life. Not everyone who has that mindset becomes a champion, but no one without that mindset has ever become one (in anything meaningful).
Thus, anytime a champion loses, they externalize why they lost. They believe they are the best, bar none, and the reason they lost isn't because the weren't the best it was an outside factor. You can call it an excuse, but if you make no excuses and just say the other guy is better, then you don't believe in yourself enough to be a champion. You have to know you are the best. And when champions win, they internalize why they won and it reinforces their belief they are the best.
Sports psychology tells us this is the best way for champions to act. Check it out.
Lilbow is a true champion, he believes in himself. He is doing the right thing by externalizing why he lost. And if he lost because he didn't care about HOTS, that is fine too. True champions don't care what anyone else thinks, all that matter is how they see themselves.
How can he be a winner when he lost the viewers respect and the tournament itself? He is not a winner until he proved himself in lotv. Not to mention he felt it was impossible to beat innovation (forgive me if I rmb wrongly) plus his blame on life cheesing him out
He made top 16 - what do you want him to say? Yeah INnoVation who is that scrub? Its one point being confident - a whole other point being dumb.
I don't see how that is categorised as a champion. great achiever is not the same as a champion.
"1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
You become a champion in your mind long before you do in real life. Not everyone who has that mindset becomes a champion, but no one without that mindset has ever become one (in anything meaningful).
Thus, anytime a champion loses, they externalize why they lost. They believe they are the best, bar none, and the reason they lost isn't because the weren't the best it was an outside factor. You can call it an excuse, but if you make no excuses and just say the other guy is better, then you don't believe in yourself enough to be a champion. You have to know you are the best. And when champions win, they internalize why they won and it reinforces their belief they are the best.
Sports psychology tells us this is the best way for champions to act. Check it out.
Lilbow is a true champion, he believes in himself. He is doing the right thing by externalizing why he lost. And if he lost because he didn't care about HOTS, that is fine too. True champions don't care what anyone else thinks, all that matter is how they see themselves.
How can he be a winner when he lost the viewers respect and the tournament itself? He is not a winner until he proved himself in lotv. Not to mention he felt it was impossible to beat innovation (forgive me if I rmb wrongly) plus his blame on life cheesing him out
Yeah I was pretty shocked when I read what the bronzeknee said. This is the first time in my life I am reading that apparently sports psychology states that giving up, and blaming external factors, is the proper mindset of a champion.
Sports psychology is not really an exact science, I'm sure that there are people who do not agree with it or at least nuance it a bit. Bronzeknee also tailored this "knowledge" exactly to fit his opinion about the case.
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
You become a champion in your mind long before you do in real life. Not everyone who has that mindset becomes a champion, but no one without that mindset has ever become one (in anything meaningful).
Thus, anytime a champion loses, they externalize why they lost. They believe they are the best, bar none, and the reason they lost isn't because the weren't the best it was an outside factor. You can call it an excuse, but if you make no excuses and just say the other guy is better, then you don't believe in yourself enough to be a champion. You have to know you are the best. And when champions win, they internalize why they won and it reinforces their belief they are the best.
Sports psychology tells us this is the best way for champions to act. Check it out.
Lilbow is a true champion, he believes in himself. He is doing the right thing by externalizing why he lost. And if he lost because he didn't care about HOTS, that is fine too. True champions don't care what anyone else thinks, all that matter is how they see themselves.
How can he be a winner when he lost the viewers respect and the tournament itself? He is not a winner until he proved himself in lotv. Not to mention he felt it was impossible to beat innovation (forgive me if I rmb wrongly) plus his blame on life cheesing him out
Yeah I was pretty shocked when I read what the bronzeknee said. This is the first time in my life I am reading that apparently sports psychology states that giving up, and blaming external factors, is the proper mindset of a champion.
Sports psychology is not really an exact science, I'm sure that there are people who do not agree with it or at least nuance it a bit. Bronzeknee also tailored this "knowledge" exactly to fit his opinion about the case.
Agree. I am obviously not a sports psychologist, but looking at the best athletes, they do not shrug off losses or blame it entirely on external factors. I'm sure some might, but the best ones seem to take ownership of the failure and dig deep and try to improve.
I had little respect for Lilbow to begin with, and after this showing I have lost what little I had. I am glad he is out of the tournament and it might even please me somewhat if he fails in every tournament he plays after this. Life didn't even execute the baneling all-in in the second game all that well.
Also, most athletes I've seen interviewed after a loss just go "the other team/guy simply played better". Whats this nonsense about "externalizing losses"?
at first he was a lucky guy who got himself some money while at the same time disappointing the majority of his fans by not preparing at all (or so he claims).
but what he's doing now is just poor sports, blaming cheese and stating the tournament wouldn't mean anything to him. of course it did. i would be pissed if, as an example, Snute would do that. blizzard gave him money to play well, not to show up and lose as fast as he can
On November 03 2015 20:07 NarutO wrote: People need to stop hating on Lilbow. It was the perfect decision as a professional to go and prepare the switch from HOTS to LOTV since his chances in winning against Life even with preperation are just okay. It gets him a Ro8 at Global Finals which obviously is an amazing success to him or any foreign player but so is being in the top 16 overall as well. It also grants him 2500$ more prize money.
He can easily achieve 2500$ when he is starting off Legacy in a really good shape as well as a chance to potentially win Dreamhack and if qualified for HSC even that event. A professional should always consider doing what gives him the most benefit in his career and it wasnt certainly not going all out practice to prepare vs Life.
For League of Legends check out the Worlds - even a team in the worlds could have prepared patch 5.21 instead of 5.18 if they have little to no chance to even make it out of the groups. I can understand and relate people didnt like it - Lilbow didnt play well, but Life also didnt put him in any basic situation where he could have showed his mid or lategame strategies.
And for people saying Lilbow could have skipped to play at all then: He fucking earned the spot - the only foreigner to earn it - why would he give it up?
And how do these teams say this to the public? Do they use the "I don't give a shit about fans or people around here" attitude or do they communicate a little bit more seriously?
On November 03 2015 20:07 NarutO wrote: People need to stop hating on Lilbow. It was the perfect decision as a professional to go and prepare the switch from HOTS to LOTV since his chances in winning against Life even with preperation are just okay. It gets him a Ro8 at Global Finals which obviously is an amazing success to him or any foreign player but so is being in the top 16 overall as well. It also grants him 2500$ more prize money.
He can easily achieve 2500$ when he is starting off Legacy in a really good shape as well as a chance to potentially win Dreamhack and if qualified for HSC even that event. A professional should always consider doing what gives him the most benefit in his career and it wasnt certainly not going all out practice to prepare vs Life.
For League of Legends check out the Worlds - even a team in the worlds could have prepared patch 5.21 instead of 5.18 if they have little to no chance to even make it out of the groups. I can understand and relate people didnt like it - Lilbow didnt play well, but Life also didnt put him in any basic situation where he could have showed his mid or lategame strategies.
And for people saying Lilbow could have skipped to play at all then: He fucking earned the spot - the only foreigner to earn it - why would he give it up?
from a logical standpoint his decision makes sense but as a progamer you owe something to the fans and the tournament organizers. If he had maybe practiced HotS and LotV 50-50 or 60-40 I would have understood him but not practicing at all gives the feeling he doesn't care. Doesn't care about the tournament, his fans, the whole esports scene. Of course he's still young and probably didn't know what it means but he has still done a huge mistake. Maybe if he performs well and shows great sportmanship in the future he can redeem himself but right now he deserves the shitstorm.
On November 03 2015 20:07 NarutO wrote: People need to stop hating on Lilbow. It was the perfect decision as a professional to go and prepare the switch from HOTS to LOTV since his chances in winning against Life even with preperation are just okay. It gets him a Ro8 at Global Finals which obviously is an amazing success to him or any foreign player but so is being in the top 16 overall as well. It also grants him 2500$ more prize money.
He can easily achieve 2500$ when he is starting off Legacy in a really good shape as well as a chance to potentially win Dreamhack and if qualified for HSC even that event. A professional should always consider doing what gives him the most benefit in his career and it wasnt certainly not going all out practice to prepare vs Life.
For League of Legends check out the Worlds - even a team in the worlds could have prepared patch 5.21 instead of 5.18 if they have little to no chance to even make it out of the groups. I can understand and relate people didnt like it - Lilbow didnt play well, but Life also didnt put him in any basic situation where he could have showed his mid or lategame strategies.
And for people saying Lilbow could have skipped to play at all then: He fucking earned the spot - the only foreigner to earn it - why would he give it up?
from a logical standpoint his decision makes sense but as a progamer you owe something to the fans and the tournament organizers. If he had maybe practiced HotS and LotV 50-50 or 60-40 I would have understood him but not practicing at all gives the feeling he doesn't care. Doesn't care about the tournament, his fans, the whole esports scene. Of course he's still young and probably didn't know what it means but he has still done a huge mistake. Maybe if he performs well and shows great sportmanship in the future he can redeem himself but right now he deserves the shitstorm.
I don't think he deserves the shitstorm. Criticism, yes but the whole thing is blown way out of proportion.
On November 03 2015 20:07 NarutO wrote: People need to stop hating on Lilbow. It was the perfect decision as a professional to go and prepare the switch from HOTS to LOTV since his chances in winning against Life even with preperation are just okay. It gets him a Ro8 at Global Finals which obviously is an amazing success to him or any foreign player but so is being in the top 16 overall as well. It also grants him 2500$ more prize money.
He can easily achieve 2500$ when he is starting off Legacy in a really good shape as well as a chance to potentially win Dreamhack and if qualified for HSC even that event. A professional should always consider doing what gives him the most benefit in his career and it wasnt certainly not going all out practice to prepare vs Life.
For League of Legends check out the Worlds - even a team in the worlds could have prepared patch 5.21 instead of 5.18 if they have little to no chance to even make it out of the groups. I can understand and relate people didnt like it - Lilbow didnt play well, but Life also didnt put him in any basic situation where he could have showed his mid or lategame strategies.
And for people saying Lilbow could have skipped to play at all then: He fucking earned the spot - the only foreigner to earn it - why would he give it up?
from a logical standpoint his decision makes sense but as a progamer you owe something to the fans and the tournament organizers. If he had maybe practiced HotS and LotV 50-50 or 60-40 I would have understood him but not practicing at all gives the feeling he doesn't care. Doesn't care about the tournament, his fans, the whole esports scene. Of course he's still young and probably didn't know what it means but he has still done a huge mistake. Maybe if he performs well and shows great sportmanship in the future he can redeem himself but right now he deserves the shitstorm.
Usually I would agree with you, but seeing how the circumstanes almost did not allow him to practice and LotV tournaments are already announced, he did the right thing. Nobody in EU playing HotS, Koreans not willing to help him, it was a tough situation. So he prepared for Life as good as he could, but put his main focus on LotV (which already paid off by qualifying for DH Winter). Sadly he didn't get to show anything he prepared vs Life and got crushed too fast, so now it looks like he didn't try at all. The games might've looked the same even if he had practiced 100% HotS, Life just has a way to make foreigners look really bad.
His only mistake were the tweets directly afterwards, in my opinion. He exaggerated, to make the loss feel less bad, but people got the wrong impression.
On November 03 2015 20:07 NarutO wrote: People need to stop hating on Lilbow. It was the perfect decision as a professional to go and prepare the switch from HOTS to LOTV since his chances in winning against Life even with preperation are just okay. It gets him a Ro8 at Global Finals which obviously is an amazing success to him or any foreign player but so is being in the top 16 overall as well. It also grants him 2500$ more prize money.
He can easily achieve 2500$ when he is starting off Legacy in a really good shape as well as a chance to potentially win Dreamhack and if qualified for HSC even that event. A professional should always consider doing what gives him the most benefit in his career and it wasnt certainly not going all out practice to prepare vs Life.
For League of Legends check out the Worlds - even a team in the worlds could have prepared patch 5.21 instead of 5.18 if they have little to no chance to even make it out of the groups. I can understand and relate people didnt like it - Lilbow didnt play well, but Life also didnt put him in any basic situation where he could have showed his mid or lategame strategies.
And for people saying Lilbow could have skipped to play at all then: He fucking earned the spot - the only foreigner to earn it - why would he give it up?
from a logical standpoint his decision makes sense but as a progamer you owe something to the fans and the tournament organizers. If he had maybe practiced HotS and LotV 50-50 or 60-40 I would have understood him but not practicing at all gives the feeling he doesn't care. Doesn't care about the tournament, his fans, the whole esports scene. Of course he's still young and probably didn't know what it means but he has still done a huge mistake. Maybe if he performs well and shows great sportmanship in the future he can redeem himself but right now he deserves the shitstorm.
He owed it to himself too. He might never get this chance again. It sucked for him he made it to the finals just before a new expansion gets out (practicing wise) but not making the best of it might haunt him for a long time and not just because of the subsequent shitstorm caused by his "clumsy" tweets. He didn't try (hard enough). Life has proven not to be unbeatable, Inno can be beaten (well, maybe not at the moment ) as well. Maybe a lucky PvP after that? Who knows? Not Lilbow.
Yes this scenario is very unlikely but to not have even tried.. It would haunt me but I'm not him I guess.
On November 03 2015 20:44 Ludwigvan wrote: If he really didn't care, he should have given Hyun the spot.
The issue with that is that he was guaranteed money, so it was to his benefit (financially) to show up even if it was to basically dick around... if he wasn't getting money for simply showing up, then I definitely think he should have deferred to HyuN or whoever was next, since you know they'd take the tournament seriously. But that's not the case.
I'm wondering why foreign teams allows for so much personal choice. Why are there not formal agreements between foreign teams to push for practice partners? IMO a good team should force their players to practice. This is not Lilbows fault, he can do what he wants. But teams should be more concerned with what their players are doing.
On November 03 2015 21:44 Muffloe wrote: Haven't followed this really, but this sounds way worse than Naniwa, who basically was forced to go(iirc, it's been awhile)
Nah, just the fallout is worse. As with professional tennis, it is considered incredibly rude to chalk up a loss to lack of practice or playing poorly rather than simply congratulating the opponent for playing well, doubly so if you start the excuses before the match is even played.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
On November 03 2015 20:07 NarutO wrote: People need to stop hating on Lilbow. It was the perfect decision as a professional to go and prepare the switch from HOTS to LOTV since his chances in winning against Life even with preperation are just okay. It gets him a Ro8 at Global Finals which obviously is an amazing success to him or any foreign player but so is being in the top 16 overall as well. It also grants him 2500$ more prize money.
He can easily achieve 2500$ when he is starting off Legacy in a really good shape as well as a chance to potentially win Dreamhack and if qualified for HSC even that event. A professional should always consider doing what gives him the most benefit in his career and it wasnt certainly not going all out practice to prepare vs Life.
For League of Legends check out the Worlds - even a team in the worlds could have prepared patch 5.21 instead of 5.18 if they have little to no chance to even make it out of the groups. I can understand and relate people didnt like it - Lilbow didnt play well, but Life also didnt put him in any basic situation where he could have showed his mid or lategame strategies.
And for people saying Lilbow could have skipped to play at all then: He fucking earned the spot - the only foreigner to earn it - why would he give it up?
from a logical standpoint his decision makes sense but as a progamer you owe something to the fans and the tournament organizers. If he had maybe practiced HotS and LotV 50-50 or 60-40 I would have understood him but not practicing at all gives the feeling he doesn't care. Doesn't care about the tournament, his fans, the whole esports scene. Of course he's still young and probably didn't know what it means but he has still done a huge mistake. Maybe if he performs well and shows great sportmanship in the future he can redeem himself but right now he deserves the shitstorm.
Usually I would agree with you, but seeing how the circumstanes almost did not allow him to practice and LotV tournaments are already announced, he did the right thing. Nobody in EU playing HotS, Koreans not willing to help him, it was a tough situation. So he prepared for Life as good as he could, but put his main focus on LotV (which already paid off by qualifying for DH Winter). Sadly he didn't get to show anything he prepared vs Life and got crushed too fast, so now it looks like he didn't try at all. The games might've looked the same even if he had practiced 100% HotS, Life just has a way to make foreigners look really bad.
His only mistake were the tweets directly afterwards, in my opinion. He exaggerated, to make the loss feel less bad, but people got the wrong impression.
This is a complete lie, TLO tweeted that there were people willing to help him and he declined. I also know that several top GMs from EU were willing to practice with him. The cheeses Life did are not good against Protoss if you have the slightest idea your oponent might do something like that, which Lillbow would have known if he had botherd watching 3 vods from Lifes games.
People defending the representative of foreign Starcraft showing to the world that we are bad, don't practice and don't care is beyond sad.
Just to poke hole at some of the arguments for why he did it:
He coulden't get practice - As allready stated this is not true. He could, he choose not to.
He doesn't owe us anything - Yes he does, we are the ones making him relevant and paying his salary by watching him. Like competators in real sports are so fond of saying - they owe everything to the fans. Being so fucking arrogant that you think you don't owe the people making you relevant something is beyond rediculus. Without viewers Lillbow is a unemployed kid playing video games all day in his parents hous.
He can do whatever he want's - Yes, yes he can and what he chose to do was show the middlefinger to every player working hard and dreaming about getting that spot. There are so many people out there who would practice their heart out for that spot. How should they feel after seeing how disrespectful the one taking their spot on a pity quota of foreigners coulden't be botherd to try?
He deserved it - No he didn't, if he had to qualify in Korea he would never have gotten to Blizzcon. He got in because Blizzard want's to give the foreign fans a hope they can cheer for. He broke that entire system by not only playing badly but stating to the world he don't care and didn't bother to try. So why should a foreigner now get a spot over a hardworking and simply better korean player? We did show to the world that we have nothing to contribute with on the big stage and that WCS truly is a pitty league.
LotV - Blizzcon is not a random online tournament with a few hundred viewers, it is the biggest stage Starcraft gets put on all year. You are showing of Starcraft to many people watching it for the first time. You are representing the entire foreign scene to all those people. You do have a responsibility and if your excuse is "Sorry wanted to get to number five on a beta ladder" it is the equivilent of a football player stating that he did not pratice for the World Cup final because he and his mates were bussy playing basketball in the park for the last months. If you can't succeed in LotV because you took a month to practice the biggest tournament of the year you were never good enough to succeed in LotV to begin with.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
Right now he deserves the shitstorm. He's a professional athlete and part of the job description is that you carry the hopes and dreams of others on your shoulders, and respect the sport as much or more than the fans do. That's ultimately the only reason anyone cares about what you do enough for you to earn money doing it (unless you're so carelessly brilliant that you win anyway). You don't get to just shuck that burden without consequence.
Remember: he didn't have to show his working out here. He could have just said "That's Life - see you in LotV" and nobody would have batted an eyelid. But no - he was butthurt at getting 3-0'd by zerglings and had to offer up a public excuse.
The only question remaining is: did he ultimately make the right call by signing up for that shitstorm? We will only know when his LotV results start coming in. If he's winning tournaments then the gamble pays off. Fans will praise his judgement, his value will go up, viewership will be bolstered and everyone wins. If he nabs an early deep run and then disappears, or fails to make a mark entirely, he'll be a symbol of foreign failure: can't even win by stealing a march on the Koreans honourably striving to make the last big game of HotS a worthy spectacle. All he's done by making his thinking public is raise the stakes.
On November 03 2015 20:07 NarutO wrote: People need to stop hating on Lilbow. It was the perfect decision as a professional to go and prepare the switch from HOTS to LOTV since his chances in winning against Life even with preperation are just okay. It gets him a Ro8 at Global Finals which obviously is an amazing success to him or any foreign player but so is being in the top 16 overall as well. It also grants him 2500$ more prize money.
He can easily achieve 2500$ when he is starting off Legacy in a really good shape as well as a chance to potentially win Dreamhack and if qualified for HSC even that event. A professional should always consider doing what gives him the most benefit in his career and it wasnt certainly not going all out practice to prepare vs Life.
For League of Legends check out the Worlds - even a team in the worlds could have prepared patch 5.21 instead of 5.18 if they have little to no chance to even make it out of the groups. I can understand and relate people didnt like it - Lilbow didnt play well, but Life also didnt put him in any basic situation where he could have showed his mid or lategame strategies.
And for people saying Lilbow could have skipped to play at all then: He fucking earned the spot - the only foreigner to earn it - why would he give it up?
LOL I bet Polt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP wouldn't have quit like a bitch/wasted our time, the caster's time, the organizer's time would they? (Maybe MKP for the right price?)
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
On November 03 2015 22:07 Umpteen wrote: Right now he deserves the shitstorm. He's a professional athlete and part of the job description is that you carry the hopes and dreams of others on your shoulders, and respect the sport as much or more than the fans do. That's ultimately the only reason anyone cares about what you do enough for you to earn money doing it (unless you're so carelessly brilliant that you win anyway). You don't get to just shuck that burden without consequence.
Remember: he didn't have to show his working out here. He could have just said "That's Life - see you in LotV" and nobody would have batted an eyelid. But no - he was butthurt at getting 3-0'd by zerglings and had to offer up a public excuse.
The only question remaining is: did he ultimately make the right call by signing up for that shitstorm? We will only know when his LotV results start coming in. If he's winning tournaments then the gamble pays off. Fans will praise his judgement, his value will go up, viewership will be bolstered and everyone wins. If he nabs an early deep run and then disappears, or fails to make a mark entirely, he'll be a symbol of foreign failure: can't even win by stealing a march on the Koreans honourably striving to make the last big game of HotS a worthy spectacle. All he's done by making his thinking public is raise the stakes.
So no pressure.
I'd like to add that in reality, a little less practice in LotV beta the last few months wouldn't have had much (if not any at all) influence on his results the coming years.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
To all the ppl saying "it's Life, he had no chance against him", a half decent GM protoss wouldve won against those openings and gone 3-0 AGAINST Life. How do you not defend a 6 pool?? All the protosses in this forum would've defended that. "He deserved to be at Blizzcon"?? IMHO he doesn't deserve to be GM playing that bad.
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote: I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
How do you practice when ~90% have switched to LotV beta? Its pretty clear all are playing LotV except the top16 who have to practice under very unfimiliar circumstance that never happened before. Blizzard should have closed LotV beta 2-3 weeks ago and not today/yesterday.
And no I wouldn't have asked TLO or wherever else, because they all are focused on LotV.
He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
Are you actually serious?
Most people expected a 3-0 from Life over Lilbow. No one was surprised that Lilbow lost definitively.
The outrage is that Lilbow didn't practice or try, and made up tons of excuses. Notice that no one is hating on Zest, for example, who's infinitely better at PvAnything than Lilbow is, yet got absolutely crushed by Innovation. This is because we know that Zest practices and tries and doesn't act like a jerk on Twitter, and even though he got wrecked, he's still worthy of respect.
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote: I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
How do you practice when ~90% have switched to LotV beta? Its pretty clear all are playing LotV except the top16 who have to practice under very unfimiliar circumstance that never happened before. Blizzard should have closed LotV beta 2-3 weeks ago and not today/yesterday.
And no I wouldn't have asked TLO or wherever else, because they all are focused on LotV.
Again, this is a lie. TLO stated plenty of people were willing to practice with him and he declined. Even without that statment are you seriously so naive as to think the entire foreign scene between them can't produce a practice partner for the one person representing them at Blizzcon? That would be even mroe of a reason to stop the entire WCS program.
He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I can't agree with this, Lilbow's just one guy.
I think Stephano and Naniwa at their prime were two really good counterexamples to the claim that "foreigners don't belong on the big stage". There are others as well.
Reality #1: - Lilbow makes a road to Blizzcon - Trains hard his HotS skills for two months to gain his best form - Plays really good games vs Life - Loses 3-1 and is forgotten after a couple of weeks
Reality #2: - Lilbow makes a road to Blizzcon - Doesn't give a shit about training for Blizzcon - Trains hard LotV to become next WCS champion next year - Loses 3-0 to Life's cheeses miserably three games in a row - Makes some tweets - Becomes Starcraft superstar
He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I can't agree with this, Lilbow's just one guy.
And that one guy was representing the foreign scene and this is what it gave us. You don't have to agree, if you want to keep watching you keep watching. I won't.
He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I can't agree with this, Lilbow's just one guy.
I think Stephano and Naniwa at their prime were two really good counterexamples to the claim that "foreigners don't belong on the big stage". There are others as well.
Indeed, and Lilbow himself proved to be a match for Polt and Hydra, who both performed well in their matches. So WCS isn't THAT much of a charity tourney.
On November 03 2015 22:07 Umpteen wrote: Right now he deserves the shitstorm. He's a professional athlete and part of the job description is that you carry the hopes and dreams of others on your shoulders, and respect the sport as much or more than the fans do. That's ultimately the only reason anyone cares about what you do enough for you to earn money doing it (unless you're so carelessly brilliant that you win anyway). You don't get to just shuck that burden without consequence.
Remember: he didn't have to show his working out here. He could have just said "That's Life - see you in LotV" and nobody would have batted an eyelid. But no - he was butthurt at getting 3-0'd by zerglings and had to offer up a public excuse.
The only question remaining is: did he ultimately make the right call by signing up for that shitstorm? We will only know when his LotV results start coming in. If he's winning tournaments then the gamble pays off. Fans will praise his judgement, his value will go up, viewership will be bolstered and everyone wins. If he nabs an early deep run and then disappears, or fails to make a mark entirely, he'll be a symbol of foreign failure: can't even win by stealing a march on the Koreans honourably striving to make the last big game of HotS a worthy spectacle. All he's done by making his thinking public is raise the stakes.
So no pressure.
I'd like to add that in reality, a little less practice in LotV beta the last few months wouldn't have had much (if not any at all) influence on his results the coming years.
He qualified for Dreamhack. That wouldn't have been possible without LotV practice. Given Dreamhack line-up, I'd say he has something like 70%+ chance of winning 1250$ (12th place finish) Depending on who the four last players are, I'd say he has between 10 and 15% chance of winning 10k (1st).
Balance that against the 5% chance of winning 2500 more (I think? The liquipedia prize bracket for 4-8th finish is unclear)
On November 03 2015 22:26 Jenia6109 wrote: Reality #1: - Lilbow makes a road to Blizzcon - Trains hard his HotS skills for two months to gain his best form - Plays really good games vs Life - Loses 3-1 and is forgotten after a couple of weeks
Reality #2: - Lilbow makes a road to Blizzcon - Doesn't give a shit about training for Blizzcon - Trains hard LotV to become next WCS champion next year - Loses 3-0 to Life's cheeses miserably three games in a row - Makes some tweets - Becomes Starcraft superstar disliked by the community for disrespecting the game
FTFY. "Superstar" had a positive connotation to it, which is obviously not the direction his popularity is going.
On November 03 2015 22:26 Jenia6109 wrote: Reality #1: - Lilbow makes a road to Blizzcon - Trains hard his HotS skills for two months to gain his best form - Plays really good games vs Life - Loses 3-1 and is forgotten after a couple of weeks
Reality #2: - Lilbow makes a road to Blizzcon - Doesn't give a shit about training for Blizzcon - Trains hard LotV to become next WCS champion next year - Loses 3-0 to Life's cheeses miserably three games in a row - Makes some tweets - Becomes Starcraft superstar
Reality #2 is nonsense. Not because of being the WCS champion next year but because of that spending a little time on something else than LotV beta would be the difference in achieving that or not.
He qualified for Dreamhack. That wouldn't have been possible without LotV practice.
He could have practiced both, he had a lot of time. He's a full time pro gamer. It wouldn't be ideal but the notion that it would've been impossible to properly prepare for both is a bit simplistic, I'm sorry to say.
On November 03 2015 22:07 Umpteen wrote: Right now he deserves the shitstorm. He's a professional athlete and part of the job description is that you carry the hopes and dreams of others on your shoulders, and respect the sport as much or more than the fans do. That's ultimately the only reason anyone cares about what you do enough for you to earn money doing it (unless you're so carelessly brilliant that you win anyway). You don't get to just shuck that burden without consequence.
Remember: he didn't have to show his working out here. He could have just said "That's Life - see you in LotV" and nobody would have batted an eyelid. But no - he was butthurt at getting 3-0'd by zerglings and had to offer up a public excuse.
The only question remaining is: did he ultimately make the right call by signing up for that shitstorm? We will only know when his LotV results start coming in. If he's winning tournaments then the gamble pays off. Fans will praise his judgement, his value will go up, viewership will be bolstered and everyone wins. If he nabs an early deep run and then disappears, or fails to make a mark entirely, he'll be a symbol of foreign failure: can't even win by stealing a march on the Koreans honourably striving to make the last big game of HotS a worthy spectacle. All he's done by making his thinking public is raise the stakes.
So no pressure.
I'd like to add that in reality, a little less practice in LotV beta the last few months wouldn't have had much (if not any at all) influence on his results the coming years.
He qualified for Dreamhack. That wouldn't have been possible without LotV practice. Given Dreamhack line-up, I'd say he has something like 70%+ chance of winning 1250$ (12th place finish) Depending on who the four last players are, I'd say he has between 10 and 15% chance of winning 10k (1st).
Balance that against the 0,05% chance of winning more money at blizzcon.
And he could sleep with random guys down at the docks for 500 dollars each making much more money if that's the only messurment of what the right choice is.
If you give so few fucks about the game you are supose to be a professional in that you can't be assed to practice or care about the bigest tournament of the year, hosted by the company paying your salary and the fans giving you the views you should fuck off.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
On November 03 2015 22:07 Umpteen wrote: Right now he deserves the shitstorm. He's a professional athlete and part of the job description is that you carry the hopes and dreams of others on your shoulders, and respect the sport as much or more than the fans do. That's ultimately the only reason anyone cares about what you do enough for you to earn money doing it (unless you're so carelessly brilliant that you win anyway). You don't get to just shuck that burden without consequence.
Remember: he didn't have to show his working out here. He could have just said "That's Life - see you in LotV" and nobody would have batted an eyelid. But no - he was butthurt at getting 3-0'd by zerglings and had to offer up a public excuse.
The only question remaining is: did he ultimately make the right call by signing up for that shitstorm? We will only know when his LotV results start coming in. If he's winning tournaments then the gamble pays off. Fans will praise his judgement, his value will go up, viewership will be bolstered and everyone wins. If he nabs an early deep run and then disappears, or fails to make a mark entirely, he'll be a symbol of foreign failure: can't even win by stealing a march on the Koreans honourably striving to make the last big game of HotS a worthy spectacle. All he's done by making his thinking public is raise the stakes.
So no pressure.
I'd like to add that in reality, a little less practice in LotV beta the last few months wouldn't have had much (if not any at all) influence on his results the coming years.
He qualified for Dreamhack. That wouldn't have been possible without LotV practice. Given Dreamhack line-up, I'd say he has something like 70%+ chance of winning 1250$ (12th place finish) Depending on who the four last players are, I'd say he has between 10 and 15% chance of winning 10k (1st).
Balance that against the 0,05% chance of winning more money at blizzcon.
And he could sleep with random guys down at the docks for 500 dollars each making much more money if that's the only messurment of what the right choice is.
I'm answering someone who says his choice doesn't have an influence on his future results. What do you want me to talk about? Your posts are pretty bad.
Was there ever really a need for this post to exist? Everybody already gets why/what Lilbow is taking heat....honestly it's probably just Lycan trying to become relevant
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
On November 03 2015 22:07 Umpteen wrote: Right now he deserves the shitstorm. He's a professional athlete and part of the job description is that you carry the hopes and dreams of others on your shoulders, and respect the sport as much or more than the fans do. That's ultimately the only reason anyone cares about what you do enough for you to earn money doing it (unless you're so carelessly brilliant that you win anyway). You don't get to just shuck that burden without consequence.
Remember: he didn't have to show his working out here. He could have just said "That's Life - see you in LotV" and nobody would have batted an eyelid. But no - he was butthurt at getting 3-0'd by zerglings and had to offer up a public excuse.
The only question remaining is: did he ultimately make the right call by signing up for that shitstorm? We will only know when his LotV results start coming in. If he's winning tournaments then the gamble pays off. Fans will praise his judgement, his value will go up, viewership will be bolstered and everyone wins. If he nabs an early deep run and then disappears, or fails to make a mark entirely, he'll be a symbol of foreign failure: can't even win by stealing a march on the Koreans honourably striving to make the last big game of HotS a worthy spectacle. All he's done by making his thinking public is raise the stakes.
So no pressure.
I'd like to add that in reality, a little less practice in LotV beta the last few months wouldn't have had much (if not any at all) influence on his results the coming years.
He qualified for Dreamhack. That wouldn't have been possible without LotV practice. Given Dreamhack line-up, I'd say he has something like 70%+ chance of winning 1250$ (12th place finish) Depending on who the four last players are, I'd say he has between 10 and 15% chance of winning 10k (1st).
Balance that against the 0,05% chance of winning more money at blizzcon.
And he could sleep with random guys down at the docks for 500 dollars each making much more money if that's the only messurment of what the right choice is.
I'm answering someone who says his choice doesn't have an influence on his future results. What do you want me to talk about? Your posts are pretty bad.
If you cant come up with a argument please don't clog up the thread.
On November 03 2015 22:33 Penev wrote: He could have practiced both, he had a lot of time. He's a full time pro gamer. It wouldn't be ideal but the notion that it would've been impossible to properly prepare for both is a bit simplistic, I'm sorry to say.
Seems like the nutworst choice, you won't be prepared enough for either and likely lose equity in both.
On November 03 2015 22:33 Penev wrote: He could have practiced both, he had a lot of time. He's a full time pro gamer. It wouldn't be ideal but the notion that it would've been impossible to properly prepare for both is a bit simplistic, I'm sorry to say.
Seems like the nutworst choice, you won't be prepared enough for either and likely lose equity in both.
Why are you so convinced by this? If he'd practice 4 full days a week, 1 day HotS/ Life and 3 days LotV that would be very doable if you ask me. It's not that they're 2 completely different games as well.
On November 03 2015 22:33 Penev wrote: He could have practiced both, he had a lot of time. He's a full time pro gamer. It wouldn't be ideal but the notion that it would've been impossible to properly prepare for both is a bit simplistic, I'm sorry to say.
Seems like the nutworst choice, you won't be prepared enough for either and likely lose equity in both.
Why are you so convinced by this? If he'd practice 4 full days a week, 1 day HotS/ Life and 3 days LotV that would be very doable if you ask me. It's not that they're 2 completely different games as well.
Only Lilbow knows what works best for him. Personally, I've always been an all or nothing kind of guy and I know I'm not the only one. Some people can play random and memorize 9 mus at a time. I practice 1 for a week, then switch. My brain works much better when focused on one thing.
Also, since the games share many similarities, it would be extremely difficult not to become confused and unconsciously do things which work in the other game...
On November 03 2015 22:33 Penev wrote: He could have practiced both, he had a lot of time. He's a full time pro gamer. It wouldn't be ideal but the notion that it would've been impossible to properly prepare for both is a bit simplistic, I'm sorry to say.
Seems like the nutworst choice, you won't be prepared enough for either and likely lose equity in both.
Why are you so convinced by this? If he'd practice 4 full days a week, 1 day HotS/ Life and 3 days LotV that would be very doable if you ask me. It's not that they're 2 completely different games as well.
Don't see how you expect him to look okay against Life with 1 day of practice a week.
Don't see how the games can be argued not to be too different when you say in the same argument that practicing only one is what made him look terrible in the other.
I don't really get why people think you need to play the beta full time to be successful early in LotV. Let your french protoss buddies play the game and then ask them what you need to know, see for yourself and "voilà", 3 weeks preparation for the coming Dreamhack after the game is out is probably enough, because the argument "if I practice HotS it will only help me by a few percents" could be made for LotV "if you train LotV instead of Hots for the blizzcon it will only help you by a few percents" except fans won't be mad (better ROI) if you are able to at least survive the early game against Life.
The PR was indeed really bad tho, Millenium aren't doing a great job in this regard, which is quite worrying. Plus the argument "you owe something to the fans" is kinda valid because you get sponsors and money thanks to these fans, although indirectly, and being the sole representative of the foreign scene comes indeed with responsabilities.
I hope for him that he will be able to overcome the shitstorm in order to perform to the fullest of his abilities in the early LotV though.
On November 03 2015 22:33 Penev wrote: He could have practiced both, he had a lot of time. He's a full time pro gamer. It wouldn't be ideal but the notion that it would've been impossible to properly prepare for both is a bit simplistic, I'm sorry to say.
Seems like the nutworst choice, you won't be prepared enough for either and likely lose equity in both.
Why are you so convinced by this? If he'd practice 4 full days a week, 1 day HotS/ Life and 3 days LotV that would be very doable if you ask me. It's not that they're 2 completely different games as well.
Only Lilbow knows what works best for him. Personally, I've always been an all or nothing kind of guy and I know I'm not the only one. Some people can play random and memorize 9 mus at a time. I practice 1 for a week, then switch. My brain works much better when focused on one thing.
Also, since the games share many similarities, it would be extremely difficult not to become confused and unconsciously do things which work in the other game...
Sure, but I can't imagine someone of the level of Lilbow not to be able to do this, he must practically radiate StarCraft.
I agree that it is (was) his choice though but I think he made a mistake he's going to regret (apart from his tweets and the subsequent shitstorm obviously). But maybe not, I'm not him.
On November 03 2015 22:33 Penev wrote: He could have practiced both, he had a lot of time. He's a full time pro gamer. It wouldn't be ideal but the notion that it would've been impossible to properly prepare for both is a bit simplistic, I'm sorry to say.
Seems like the nutworst choice, you won't be prepared enough for either and likely lose equity in both.
Why are you so convinced by this? If he'd practice 4 full days a week, 1 day HotS/ Life and 3 days LotV that would be very doable if you ask me. It's not that they're 2 completely different games as well.
Don't see how you expect him to look okay against Life with 1 day of practice a week.
Don't see how the games can be argued not to be too different when you say in the same argument that practicing only one is what made him look terrible in the other.
Well I can't help you with that, you seem to see things a bit too black and white for me to argue with. I didn't mean that as an insult, I hope you don't take it as one.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
I'm really not sure how it would affect the general integrity, perhaps the integrity of the player himself (still somewhat of a stretch) but I don't think that's not of any relevance in broad terms.
As far as I am concerned, this attitude is a disgrace for someone who wants to be a champion. Sure, Life is an extremely difficult opponent, but shouldn't that motivate you to try harder? It's not like Life is invincible either, he lost bo5s to foreigners before. You are not supposed to just roll over and die. A true champion wants to be challenged, he wants to fight against the odds. And he wants to win. Always. Did Mvp roll over and die against Life in that GSL final? No. Despite his wrist issues and backpain, he put up a great fight and almost won. Made it damn close. Did Hydra roll over and die against Dream, a player famous for his TvZ that beat an in-form Life TWICE? No. He put up a great fight an won. That's a mark of a true champion. Not this. And don't tell me he couldn't practice. He declined help that was offered to him.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
The "I got cheesed" is quite funny when used as an excuse for a bo5 loss against a superior opponent tho haha. It's ok to lose to cheese in bo1, but getting cheesed/allined three times in a row successfully is like the most humiliating thing since cheeses and basic allins are far less likely to be pulled out successfully when the opponent is on his toes.
"They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does."
The difference between what Lilbow did and match fixing is match fixing is throwing games for money, Lilbow did it for free. It could actually be perceived as more disrespectful to the game, since you gain nothing from it.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
Well it's a good thing then, four places reserved to foreigners for Blizzcon is a terrible idea.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
Well it's a good thing then, four places reserved to foreigners for Blizzcon is a terrible idea.
Incontrol(I think) asked Lycan to name 4 competent foreigners. He said Lilbow, Mana, Snute and maybe TLO(I think)... then the case was closed with "we have a problem naming 4 competent players and you want 4 places there?" statement It is not accurate and I am at work and cannot find the episode of TLG where it happened.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
Well it's a good thing then, four places reserved to foreigners for Blizzcon is a terrible idea.
Incontrol(I think) asked Lycan to name 4 competent foreigners. He said Lilbow, Mana, Snute and maybe TLO(I think)... then the case was closed with "we have a problem naming 4 competent players and you want 4 places there?" statement It is not accurate and I am at work and cannot find the episode of TLG where it happened.
I reread your first post and I see what you meant now, I'm sorry I answered way too fast.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
Well it's a good thing then, four places reserved to foreigners for Blizzcon is a terrible idea.
Incontrol(I think) asked Lycan to name 4 competent foreigners. He said Lilbow, Mana, Snute and maybe TLO(I think)... then the case was closed with "we have a problem naming 4 competent players and you want 4 places there?" statement It is not accurate and I am at work and cannot find the episode of TLG where it happened.
I reread your first post and I see what you meant now, I'm sorry I answered way too fast.
It's cool, I do this all the time too No harm done and my painkillers are starting to work so I am now really happy
TLO stated plenty of people were willing to practice with him and he declined.
I have a lot of respect for TLO as it is a player i follow since WoL beta and his random days, yet a little less since he decided to attack Lilbow publicly on Twitter (however I can understand and forgive why he could not resist the urge to do that). However I find people a little quick on the trigger : - Who was willing to practice with Lilbow ? - When ? - How was the offer turned down ? - Why ?
Lots of questions unanswered.
How do you spell "hate train" again ?
ps : And yeah, Mill. staff people, come on protect your player a lil' better, some PR advices should have been given (like just cut off from the internet for 2 weeks" ^^).
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
I don't think so. I think this part of the discussion is artificially built up by people who don't like the WCS system to begin with. You could make a similar case to the "all foreigners are lazy and are not worth to play at Blizzcon" for "all Kespa players are cheaters and shouldn't be invited". It's plainly stupid. I don't see blizzard changing the system due to Lilbow's twitter reaction. Unless of course a majority of the community jumps on the train based on these flimsy grounds, in which case I'd say the community doesn't support the system anyways and the current situation is just the tip of the iceberg. Which I don't think is the situation at all, given that (at least this is my perception) WCS Global is one of the most popular leagues in terms of spectators.
On November 03 2015 22:07 Umpteen wrote: Right now he deserves the shitstorm. He's a professional athlete and part of the job description is that you carry the hopes and dreams of others on your shoulders, and respect the sport as much or more than the fans do. That's ultimately the only reason anyone cares about what you do enough for you to earn money doing it (unless you're so carelessly brilliant that you win anyway). You don't get to just shuck that burden without consequence.
Remember: he didn't have to show his working out here. He could have just said "That's Life - see you in LotV" and nobody would have batted an eyelid. But no - he was butthurt at getting 3-0'd by zerglings and had to offer up a public excuse.
The only question remaining is: did he ultimately make the right call by signing up for that shitstorm? We will only know when his LotV results start coming in. If he's winning tournaments then the gamble pays off. Fans will praise his judgement, his value will go up, viewership will be bolstered and everyone wins. If he nabs an early deep run and then disappears, or fails to make a mark entirely, he'll be a symbol of foreign failure: can't even win by stealing a march on the Koreans honourably striving to make the last big game of HotS a worthy spectacle. All he's done by making his thinking public is raise the stakes.
So no pressure.
I'd like to add that in reality, a little less practice in LotV beta the last few months wouldn't have had much (if not any at all) influence on his results the coming years.
He qualified for Dreamhack. That wouldn't have been possible without LotV practice. Given Dreamhack line-up, I'd say he has something like 70%+ chance of winning 1250$ (12th place finish) Depending on who the four last players are, I'd say he has between 10 and 15% chance of winning 10k (1st).
Balance that against the 5% chance of winning 2500 more (I think? The liquipedia prize bracket for 4-8th finish is unclear)
Lilbow qualified for Dreamhack for the exact same reason he made Blizzcon. Koreans weren't allowed to compete
TLO stated plenty of people were willing to practice with him and he declined.
I have a lot of respect for TLO as it is a player i follow since WoL beta and his random days, yet a little less sincehe decided to attack Lilbow publicly on Twitter (however I can understand and forgive why he could not resist the urge to do that). However I find people a little quick on the trigger : - Who was willing to practice with Lilbow ? - When ? - How was the offer turned down ? - Why ?
Lots of questions unanswered.
How do you spell "hate train" again ?
ps : And yeah, Mill. staff people, come on protect your player a lil' better, some PR advices should have been given (like just cut off from the internet for 2 weeks" ^^).
It might be TLO offered to help. Would justify his tweets a bit more as well.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
Well it's a good thing then, four places reserved to foreigners for Blizzcon is a terrible idea.
Incontrol(I think) asked Lycan to name 4 competent foreigners. He said Lilbow, Mana, Snute and maybe TLO(I think)... then the case was closed with "we have a problem naming 4 competent players and you want 4 places there?" statement It is not accurate and I am at work and cannot find the episode of TLG where it happened.
TLO stated plenty of people were willing to practice with him and he declined.
I have a lot of respect for TLO as it is a player i follow since WoL beta and his random days, yet a little less sincehe decided to attack Lilbow publicly on Twitter (however I can understand and forgive why he could not resist the urge to do that). However I find people a little quick on the trigger : - Who was willing to practice with Lilbow ? - When ? - How was the offer turned down ? - Why ?
Lots of questions unanswered.
How do you spell "hate train" again ?
ps : And yeah, Mill. staff people, come on protect your player a lil' better, some PR advices should have been given (like just cut off from the internet for 2 weeks" ^^).
It might be TLO offered to help. Would justify his tweets a bit more as well.
That's how I understood it anyway. It's a normal reaction, most foreigners wanted Lilbow to do well, and so did TLO. He offered to help, lilbow turned him down. I got the impression TLO knew Lilbow didn't practice much during the "couch session" before the games
On November 03 2015 23:56 Sakat wrote: It might be TLO offered to help. Would justify his tweets a bit more as well.
That's how I understood it anyway. It's a normal reaction, most foreigners wanted Lilbow to do well, and so did TLO. He offered to help, lilbow turned him down. I got the impression TLO knew Lilbow didn't practice much during the "couch session" before the games
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
I don't think so. I think this part of the discussion is artificially built up by people who don't like the WCS system to begin with. You could make a similar case to the "all foreigners are lazy and are not worth to play at Blizzcon" for "all Kespa players are cheaters and shouldn't be invited". It's plainly stupid. I don't see blizzard changing the system due to Lilbow's twitter reaction. Unless of course a majority of the community jumps on the train based on these flimsy grounds, in which case I'd say the community doesn't support the system anyways and the current situation is just the tip of the iceberg. Which I don't think is the situation at all, given that (at least this is my perception) WCS Global is one of the most popular leagues in terms of spectators.
C'mon, taking match selling by Prime to this discussion? They were not even close to advance to Blizzcon. And Lilbow with his attitude just made the case for foreigners worse. Had he been silent... (I am not very good with ifs so if it's wrong ignore it )
Anyway, because I am under affection of my painkillers all I have to say is>
Ready to roar, ready or not Ready to give it all I've got Gotta live to win, get up, get out, get even Ready to roar, ready or not Ready to give it one more shot Let the game begin, need something to believe in Ready to roar!
And that's why Life is a GSL winner and Lilbow is just a player who don't know when to be silent
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
I don't think so. I think this part of the discussion is artificially built up by people who don't like the WCS system to begin with. You could make a similar case to the "all foreigners are lazy and are not worth to play at Blizzcon" for "all Kespa players are cheaters and shouldn't be invited". It's plainly stupid. I don't see blizzard changing the system due to Lilbow's twitter reaction. Unless of course a majority of the community jumps on the train based on these flimsy grounds, in which case I'd say the community doesn't support the system anyways and the current situation is just the tip of the iceberg. Which I don't think is the situation at all, given that (at least this is my perception) WCS Global is one of the most popular leagues in terms of spectators.
C'mon, taking match selling by Prime to this discussion? They were not even close to advance to Blizzcon. And Lilbow with his attitude just made the case for foreigners worse. Had he been silent... (I am not very good with ifs so if it's wrong ignore it )
Anyway, because I am under affection of my painkillers all I have to say is>
Ready to roar, ready or not Ready to give it all I've got Gotta live to win, get up, get out, get even Ready to roar, ready or not Ready to give it one more shot Let the game begin, need something to believe in Ready to roar!
And that's why Life is a GSL winner and Lilbow is just a player who don't know when to be silent
Somehow the "adorable" and "Prime" in your sig don't seem to be very compatible anymore.
On November 03 2015 14:30 Joedaddy wrote: Go home Lycan. You're drunk.
seriously though, the sheer emotion in your post is bewildering. Stephano used to brag about how little he prepared too, and I don't remember any witch hunt propaganda back then. The only thing this OP has me wondering is what Lilbow really did to spur you into pitchfork wielding action? And please don't tell me its blatant disregard for your viewing pleasure. No rational adult reacts the way you did because some stranger didn't meet their standards of trying hard.
What an absurd OP.
I did a pretty good job of keeping the emotions low and sticking to the logical side of the situation. "Witch hunt propaganda" is a tad hyperbolic, mate. I wield no pitch forks. I'm not asking for people to do stupid shit like write to his sponsors or blacklist him from tournament invites.
He made a decision, he let people know about the decision, and now his choices are being scrutinized like every other professional athlete's choices. We're on the cusp of WCS 2016 where people want the system to give foreigners a better chance at Blizzcon, and his choices undermine the fan base who wants to see them there and the people running the tournaments. Let's be real, when we talk about region locking, we aren't satisfied with players only having a chance to get to the Round of 16 and possibly win the season finals - we want their asses at Blizzcon. For better or worse, we want them at the global finals. There will always be an unbeatable Korean v. Foreigner match up at Blizzcon and we should expect every foreigner to face that challenge with determination and their eye on the prize - not looking past the WCS Finals Trophy for a DreamHack or WCS Season 1 that hasn't even started yet.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
I don't think so. I think this part of the discussion is artificially built up by people who don't like the WCS system to begin with. You could make a similar case to the "all foreigners are lazy and are not worth to play at Blizzcon" for "all Kespa players are cheaters and shouldn't be invited". It's plainly stupid. I don't see blizzard changing the system due to Lilbow's twitter reaction. Unless of course a majority of the community jumps on the train based on these flimsy grounds, in which case I'd say the community doesn't support the system anyways and the current situation is just the tip of the iceberg. Which I don't think is the situation at all, given that (at least this is my perception) WCS Global is one of the most popular leagues in terms of spectators.
C'mon, taking match selling by Prime to this discussion? They were not even close to advance to Blizzcon. And Lilbow with his attitude just made the case for foreigners worse. Had he been silent... (I am not very good with ifs so if it's wrong ignore it )
Anyway, because I am under affection of my painkillers all I have to say is>
Ready to roar, ready or not Ready to give it all I've got Gotta live to win, get up, get out, get even Ready to roar, ready or not Ready to give it one more shot Let the game begin, need something to believe in Ready to roar!
And that's why Life is a GSL winner and Lilbow is just a player who don't know when to be silent
Somehow the "adorable" and "Prime" in your sig don't seem to be very compatible anymore.
Poor Lorning
GOD DAMN IT! Yeah, I forgot, I don't care about my signature and I've seen this somewhere. I'll change it.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
I don't think so. I think this part of the discussion is artificially built up by people who don't like the WCS system to begin with. You could make a similar case to the "all foreigners are lazy and are not worth to play at Blizzcon" for "all Kespa players are cheaters and shouldn't be invited". It's plainly stupid. I don't see blizzard changing the system due to Lilbow's twitter reaction. Unless of course a majority of the community jumps on the train based on these flimsy grounds, in which case I'd say the community doesn't support the system anyways and the current situation is just the tip of the iceberg. Which I don't think is the situation at all, given that (at least this is my perception) WCS Global is one of the most popular leagues in terms of spectators.
C'mon, taking match selling by Prime to this discussion? They were not even close to advance to Blizzcon. And Lilbow with his attitude just made the case for foreigners worse. Had he been silent... (I am not very good with ifs so if it's wrong ignore it )
Anyway, because I am under affection of my painkillers all I have to say is>
Ready to roar, ready or not Ready to give it all I've got Gotta live to win, get up, get out, get even Ready to roar, ready or not Ready to give it one more shot Let the game begin, need something to believe in Ready to roar!
And that's why Life is a GSL winner and Lilbow is just a player who don't know when to be silent
Somehow the "adorable" and "Prime" in your sig don't seem to be very compatible anymore.
Poor Lorning
GOD DAMN IT! Yeah, I forgot, I don't care about my signature and I've seen this somewhere. I'll change it.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
I don't think so. I think this part of the discussion is artificially built up by people who don't like the WCS system to begin with. You could make a similar case to the "all foreigners are lazy and are not worth to play at Blizzcon" for "all Kespa players are cheaters and shouldn't be invited". It's plainly stupid. I don't see blizzard changing the system due to Lilbow's twitter reaction. Unless of course a majority of the community jumps on the train based on these flimsy grounds, in which case I'd say the community doesn't support the system anyways and the current situation is just the tip of the iceberg. Which I don't think is the situation at all, given that (at least this is my perception) WCS Global is one of the most popular leagues in terms of spectators.
C'mon, taking match selling by Prime to this discussion? They were not even close to advance to Blizzcon. And Lilbow with his attitude just made the case for foreigners worse. Had he been silent... (I am not very good with ifs so if it's wrong ignore it )
Anyway, because I am under affection of my painkillers all I have to say is>
Ready to roar, ready or not Ready to give it all I've got Gotta live to win, get up, get out, get even Ready to roar, ready or not Ready to give it one more shot Let the game begin, need something to believe in Ready to roar!
And that's why Life is a GSL winner and Lilbow is just a player who don't know when to be silent
Somehow the "adorable" and "Prime" in your sig don't seem to be very compatible anymore.
Poor Lorning
GOD DAMN IT! Yeah, I forgot, I don't care about my signature and I've seen this somewhere. I'll change it.
Do a Lilbow one
I used the post from Zealously from the O'Gaming nation wars event (I am not a creative person)
On November 03 2015 14:28 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Players don't owe shit to anyone. So sick of hearing all those entitled pricks saying X player behaviour is disrespectful towards the fans; or that they should do Y or Z because of shit. People saying Lilbow should have given his spot away if he was not going to prepare well enough. "lack of respect for the most prestogious event of the year", what a load of nonsense....
It's an individual competition. If you get to whichever point you get to, it's because you've earned it, it's the spot you deserve. You don't just hand a spot to someone else, it's not the "Care Bare association for not good enough player that couldn't make it but are nice so let's give them a free spot". The 17th player on the list is undeserving of even putting a foot in the WCS global 16 men finals. period. That's just what competition is. And any of the 16 players who earned their spot isn't required to do anything else than qualifying to still deserve their spot. They can still come as unprepared as you may imagine it doesn't take anything from what they did to get there before. They don't even have to practice, which shows how much more e-sports has to go to meet established sports standards in which athletes get fined when they miss training, because it's in their contract and in this case they owe their employer to be present at every training session. When you are alone competing in an individual competition for a prize it's very different, the tournaments organizers are not your employers and you don't owe them anything else than respecting their rules. You think what Lilbow did is bad for them? It's not. This public shaming is ridiculous.
A player doesn't owe his fans or the viewers anything, it's not like you are doing someone a favour by watching/cheering for him; you do it for yourself to entertain yourself and that's a fair exchange.
A quick 3-0 doesn't sound that shocking vs Life, one of the best Koreans ever, even if Lilbow did practice a lot and lost in similar fashion it would not have been a huge surprise.
But yeah, giving excuses of any kind for loosing in a competition is lame anyway, There is no such thing as a good excuse, the worst player looses and the better player wins; as simple as that. Lilbow was clearly the worst player in this match, so he lost, end of story.
"i'll give Lilbow the benefit of the doubt" ,"You, as a fan of Lilbow, have every right to be upset" Get off your high horse. It really seems like you directly came out of a recent South Park episode with all the PC stuff going on.
I disagree with a lot of what you said, especially your little jabs at the end. I'm on no high horse, friend. And yeah, I'm PC OSU Chapter. WOO WOO on YOU.
Just to touch on a few of the points you made:
People saying Lilbow should have given his spot away...
I never said that. I don't believe he should have. He earned it, he deserved to be there.
Players don't owe shit to anyone. So sick of hearing all those entitled pricks saying X player behaviour is disrespectful towards the fans; or that they should do Y or Z because of shit.
I hate when a fan base has unrealistic expectations of what they are "owed" by a player. But the reality is players DO owe their fans to some degree. Fans make players relevant. Fans are why players have a job. Fans come to the competitions, watch the streams, buy the merchandise, etc. I don't believe lilbow acted maliciously and thought "fuck you all" when he made his decision. That doesn't change how disrespectful it was - and yes, contrary to your hyper aggressive, "players are not accountable to anyone but themselves" outlook, there is disrespect in his actions.
When you are alone competing in an individual competition for a prize it's very different, the tournaments organizers are not your employers and you don't owe them anything else than respecting their rules.
Blizzcon does deserve respect. If he and other foreigners don't respect the WCS, then I say open the flood gates and let the Koreans back in.
On November 04 2015 00:10 joon wrote: This is pretty fucked thanks to lilbow.
I miss Stephano
Man, Stephano at his height was such a joy to watch. I remember the EGTL foreigners struggling so hard for their first win in Proleague (which Thorzain got against a Terran Classic), yet Stephano shows up and wins on his first try against herO of all people. Even if he never could take a championship in Korea, he always felt like a serious threat to many Korean players, which is more than I could say for any foreigner nowadays.
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
To be fair Bobby Fischer was a master in his field and we cannot say this about Lilbow. When Parting/MC were doing their "I don't give a shit" stances they were respected as the best players. They were winning, they were innovating meta. Lilbow isn't. And that's the difference.
Also remember that this started by Lycan who was very vocal about some places reserved for foreigners and Lilbow now made this a little bit harder to pass. Even if Blizzard will make 2-4 spots in Blizzcon for foreigners Lilbow will be used as an example why this is a bad idea/decision ;-)
The WCS system is designed to give an opportunity to foreigners to get to Blizzcon. Lilbow got to Blizzcon. The system works. There is no clause in the WCS system that says "you will magically look like you have a good shot against Life". If you had a good shot against Life, you wouldn't need a WCS system in the first place.
I wasn't saying this. I was saying that Lycan (and some other people) wants to have some places at Blizzcon reserved for foreigners. The last time he was saying 4 places. Because otherwise there's a low chance of seeing a foreigner at Blizzcon. Now this idea is damaged by Lilbow because he will be used as an example that we had a foreigner there and look what happened.
Or am I missing something? I wasn't against WCS ... not sure, my headache is killing me now, so I am a "little bit" off
I don't think so. I think this part of the discussion is artificially built up by people who don't like the WCS system to begin with. You could make a similar case to the "all foreigners are lazy and are not worth to play at Blizzcon" for "all Kespa players are cheaters and shouldn't be invited". It's plainly stupid. I don't see blizzard changing the system due to Lilbow's twitter reaction. Unless of course a majority of the community jumps on the train based on these flimsy grounds, in which case I'd say the community doesn't support the system anyways and the current situation is just the tip of the iceberg. Which I don't think is the situation at all, given that (at least this is my perception) WCS Global is one of the most popular leagues in terms of spectators.
C'mon, taking match selling by Prime to this discussion? They were not even close to advance to Blizzcon. And Lilbow with his attitude just made the case for foreigners worse. Had he been silent... (I am not very good with ifs so if it's wrong ignore it )
Anyway, because I am under affection of my painkillers all I have to say is>
Ready to roar, ready or not Ready to give it all I've got Gotta live to win, get up, get out, get even Ready to roar, ready or not Ready to give it one more shot Let the game begin, need something to believe in Ready to roar!
And that's why Life is a GSL winner and Lilbow is just a player who don't know when to be silent
Somehow the "adorable" and "Prime" in your sig don't seem to be very compatible anymore.
Poor Lorning
GOD DAMN IT! Yeah, I forgot, I don't care about my signature and I've seen this somewhere. I'll change it.
Do a Lilbow one
I used the post from Zealously from the O'Gaming nation wars event (I am not a creative person)
On November 04 2015 00:10 joon wrote: This is pretty fucked thanks to lilbow.
I miss Stephano
Man, Stephano at his height was such a joy to watch. I remember the EGTL foreigners struggling so hard for their first win in Proleague (which Thorzain got against a Terran Classic), yet Stephano shows up and wins on his first try against herO of all people. Even if he never could take a championship in Korea, he always felt like a serious threat to many Korean players, which is more than I could say for any foreigner nowadays.
Remember that foreigners v Koreans teamgame when Stephano stepped in? That was sooo cool
That's how I understood it anyway. It's a normal reaction, most foreigners wanted Lilbow to do well, and so did TLO. He offered to help, lilbow turned him down. I got the impression TLO knew Lilbow didn't practice much during the "couch session" before the games
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
I'm really not sure how it would affect the general integrity, perhaps the integrity of the player himself (still somewhat of a stretch) but I don't think that's not of any relevance in broad terms.
We are a small group of friends that gather for tournaments like this to watch and usually we drag along people to watch it with us. This did damage the foreign scenes integrity, this WCS was the last foreing Starcraft we will watch. People showing up to not try would be a huge scandal in any sport, even more when the player is the representative of the entire foreign scene.
TLO stated plenty of people were willing to practice with him and he declined.
I have a lot of respect for TLO as it is a player i follow since WoL beta and his random days, yet a little less since he decided to attack Lilbow publicly on Twitter (however I can understand and forgive why he could not resist the urge to do that). However I find people a little quick on the trigger : - Who was willing to practice with Lilbow ? - When ? - How was the offer turned down ? - Why ?
Lots of questions unanswered.
How do you spell "hate train" again ?
ps : And yeah, Mill. staff people, come on protect your player a lil' better, some PR advices should have been given (like just cut off from the internet for 2 weeks" ^^).
Are you serious? Who, when, why? What? He had offers for practice and he turned it down, he stated he could not find practice, he lied.
TLO stated plenty of people were willing to practice with him and he declined.
I have a lot of respect for TLO as it is a player i follow since WoL beta and his random days, yet a little less since he decided to attack Lilbow publicly on Twitter (however I can understand and forgive why he could not resist the urge to do that). However I find people a little quick on the trigger : - Who was willing to practice with Lilbow ? - When ? - How was the offer turned down ? - Why ?
Lots of questions unanswered.
How do you spell "hate train" again ?
ps : And yeah, Mill. staff people, come on protect your player a lil' better, some PR advices should have been given (like just cut off from the internet for 2 weeks" ^^).
Are you serious? Who, when, why? What? He had offers for practice and he turned it down, he stated he could not find practice, he lied. If the entire foreign scene could not be botherd to help their one representative practice for the bigest stage you can get on in Starcraft it is unprofessional to the point where they should not be allowed to participate in big tournaments. It is beyond naiv to believe this was the case.
TLO stated plenty of people were willing to practice with him and he declined.
I have a lot of respect for TLO as it is a player i follow since WoL beta and his random days, yet a little less since he decided to attack Lilbow publicly on Twitter (however I can understand and forgive why he could not resist the urge to do that). However I find people a little quick on the trigger : - Who was willing to practice with Lilbow ? - When ? - How was the offer turned down ? - Why ?
Lots of questions unanswered.
How do you spell "hate train" again ?
ps : And yeah, Mill. staff people, come on protect your player a lil' better, some PR advices should have been given (like just cut off from the internet for 2 weeks" ^^).
*private comment not of SGall* The question is "what foreigner would turn down the chance to help the only foreign hope?" It looks like TLO definitely asked if he could help. If lilbow thought the foreign scene couldn't help him and thus declined, then congrats he is one of the most stuck up pricks I have ever known. And he loses to early lings, which any zerg can execute pretty well.
On November 04 2015 00:10 joon wrote: This is pretty fucked thanks to lilbow.
I miss Stephano
Man, Stephano at his height was such a joy to watch. I remember the EGTL foreigners struggling so hard for their first win in Proleague (which Thorzain got against a Terran Classic), yet Stephano shows up and wins on his first try against herO of all people. Even if he never could take a championship in Korea, he always felt like a serious threat to many Korean players, which is more than I could say for any foreigner nowadays.
Remember that foreigners v Koreans teamgame when Stephano stepped in? That was sooo cool
Sadly both happened in his 2nd year. 1st year would be a different (much better) story.
On November 03 2015 19:29 JayuSC2 wrote: You guys know that they contacted all the gaming houses in Korea, but they all declined to train HOTS with Lilbow? Non of you guys have been in his situation and aren't even progamers. This is his job and he is doing what is in his best financial interest and best for his future career. His decision was selfish, definitely, but when you really feel you will have no chance of beating a player like Life and no motivation to play a game you don't enjoy anymore, combined with virtually no decent practice partners (I know some offered to help him, but we don't even know who these players were and if they could even take a map off of a player like Life) then it's very understandable.
I agree that he shouldn't have talked about not practicing, he said so to protect his ego, and it's admittedly childish, but people should try to understand him before jumping on the bandwagon and bashing him. What if he had trained hard and spent hours of practicing for this, and then he would've been crushed either way. He saved himself a lot of disappointment and time by not even trying something, which to him, the chances of winning, seemed not worth the effort. It's easy to call it a "loser mentality", but from what he has achieved so far, he is pretty far from having a "loser mentality".
the message of your post is great until at the very end you mention (not verbatim) that "he saved himself [the] disappointment". i'm going to use an analogy that many gamers can relate with.
someone who believes strongly in their ability while within their peer setting is afraid to lose to people they've never met before. or, similarly, they're afraid of what's beyond their current understanding of the game. "Why try if i know i'm going to lose anyway." (a made up quote or idea taken out of context, keep in mind) "I would be good if i actually tried, [but i'm not rn]" are the most usual excuses used to cope with the sentiments of getting written off.
Along the same vein of thinking is, "I just can't find a team that doesn't suck." "You [all] have no idea what you're talking about." again, nothing but excuses. it doesn't say anything, it doesn't offer anything, and it becomes a tendency formed from mentality.
What people are doing and what feels so natural to do is, preying on someone who's throwing out bait and who didn't intend to do so. He is not trolling. He is crumbling and showing more weaknesses than he's capable of showing, and now he's getting crucified and called out for it because (in part) of the expectations we have of him.
It is absolutely not the first time or even one of the very few times that pros or former pros chip in their statements and direct it at players and what they're doing. Please don't act surprised that this is what people can do through social media. It's so easy to do and it's something that shapes our societies.
lol, why would you ever want to watch a movie with your favourite actor if it turned out horrible because they were focused on other projects? why would you ever look forward to watching, aside from seeing how poorly made the next movie might be? If your expectations of an entertainer are shifting this quickly, then they're in danger of just being a novelty, a blip on the map, an experience that's meaningless to you.
On November 04 2015 01:22 stuchiu wrote: Why would TLO lie about saying people offered to practice with Lilbow?
Lilbow didnt even refute it, he just called him a caster.
Even if no one offered, he could've asked. Serral, Namshar and ZGL were active at the time, in fact they all played at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Insomnia_XVII, the same day of the DH qualifiers. If they weren't up to it, surely there must've been someone in the NA region to try his builds against more than two times before the show. His attitude in the pre-game video, the games themselves and the following Twitter/FB messages has remained consistent; dead game, impossible opponents, no motivation besides making an appearance in sunny Cali for the paycheck. Choosing blind Forgeless FE builds twice in a row with and without scouting was just asking for a quick exit. I'm a Life fan but that was just a waste of everyone's time. I hope Blizzard bans him from DH.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
I think the point is, people new to SC2 are much more likely to shrug their shoulders at Lilbow and ignore foreign events if that's how much they care about the game. Instead they'll stick with the 15 players who put on good shows and assume the place to watch them is GSL / PL / Korean events.
This was a mentality a lot of people had for *not* watching foreign events before they started inviting a few Koreans after all.
Also, I'm glad the Stephano comparisons came up, because it was really obvious from peak to near-retirment (and comeback) Stephano that despite all his bluster he really did put work into the game. He just wanted to come off as this super-gifted genius at WoL (which I suppose he was). Lilbow trying to copy that attitude without the results (and secret preparation) just doesn't seem to be working out for him lol.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
2. No you can't and you aren't. Why they are better is completly irrelevant. The fact is that they are better and Lilbow is shielded against better competition. Thus giving him a easier road to a competition and easy price money.
3. What do they offer?
4. I'm not taking a wild stab in the dark at this. I am one of those masters players and I have talked to several, master and gm, and non of the ones were aspiring to become professionals. It's like chess, we like to improve and compete but most us are not planning on doing it for a living.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
I have no idea how such a easy concept is so hard for you. Noboy expected him to win, even him taking a game of Life would have been a suprise. What was expected of him was to try, which goes to show just how low the expectations were and he stil managed to fall short. Nobody were expecting foreign Starcraft to be better then korean but to show you worked at least 1/10 as hard as the koreans would have been greatly appreciated. To show you don't give a singel fuck about this torunament and how it makes foreign Starcraft look is insulting to everyone involved.
If you still don't understand I'm afraid I'm running out of teaspoons.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
so if the foreigners themselves think they have no chance then why have foreigners at all in the tournament? This Tournament gave the best foreigner the chance to compete with the best on the bigggest stage and he didn't even try. isn't that a statement that the system is bad and there shouldn't be foreigners at blizzcon? (Not that i support that)
Your claim is perfectly clear, but I guess if it makes you feel superior to pretend I don't get it, go ahead.
The answer is, you are able to get away with the claim that he didn't try because the games looked bad. If he had said exactly what he has said and Life had played three macro games, ultimately winning due to being better, that wouldn't be embarrassing for the foreign scene. At the most Lilbow gets a slap on the wrist for venting on twitter after a loss, which everyone ever has done. If Lilbow had said absolutely nothing and Life did that to him, that would still be embarrassing for the foreign scene. They sent their best, he got rekt in a ridiculous fashion.
You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
2. No you can't and you aren't. Why they are better is completly irrelevant. The fact is that they are better and Lilbow is shielded against better competition. Thus giving him a easier road to a competition and easy price money.
3. What do they offer?
4. I'm not taking a wild stab in the dark at this. I am one of those masters players and I have talked to several, master and gm, and non of the ones were aspiring to become professionals. It's like chess, we like to improve and compete but most us are not planning on doing it for a living.
1)You're back peddling. You called him "the representative." Now you're saying the foreign representative on that stage which means nothing as he's the only one so that's obvious enough. You say he's "supposed to be the best" which is the unreasonable expectations creeping in. I wouldn't consider him the best foreigner. One of the best, sure, but not the best. I do think it's unreasonable for you to think a pro has to prepare for every tournament (especially in cases with extenuating circumstances). The rest I can agree with. No doubt all eyes were on him and he fucked up.
2)You could say Lilbow is shielded or you could stay Korean players have unfair advantage due to "korean steroids." I know you get what I mean, but just to spell it out. 0 lag kr ladder, team houses, tournaments within driving distance. Oh, and Internet since Lilbow says he doesn't even have good connection in his home.
3)Switch the Korean names with the NA ones and see if anyone can tell the difference. MAYBE, if you were inside the replay you could check for macro mechanics, but from watching a vod REALLY hard.
4)No need to deny yourself your dream. If you want it, go for it. Anyone playing 1,500 games a season might as well be pro (or at least monetize their passion in some way through streaming etc). It's physically impossible to maintain 40 hrs a week job and play that much.
It's strange how you continue to insist Lilbow disgraced foreign sc2 when you say yourself you don't watch it and have "zero interest in keeping it alive."
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote]
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
so if the foreigners themselves think they have no chance then why have foreigners at all in the tournament? This Tournament gave the best foreigner the chance to compete with the best on the bigggest stage and he didn't even try. isn't that a statement that the system is bad and there shouldn't be foreigners at blizzcon? (Not that i support that)
First of all, that doesn't answer my post, so, that's one thing.
But I can still answer: you have foreigners in the tournament because that's what the WCS system is about. You create more opportunities for foreigners. You can tell that the system worked because Lilbow had enough opportunities to actually make it to the end, and qualify for the Blizzcon. He was one of the 16 most successful players of the year. Your moment of foreigner pride should have been when he got there; and maybe it was. As far as the system goes, it has worked as it was intended to work.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote]
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote: Your claim is perfectly clear, but I guess if it makes you feel superior to pretend I don't get it, go ahead.
The answer is, you are able to get away with the claim that he didn't try because the games looked bad. If he had said exactly what he has said and Life had played three macro games, ultimately winning due to being better, that wouldn't be embarrassing for the foreign scene. At the most Lilbow gets a slap on the wrist for venting on twitter after a loss, which everyone ever has done. If Lilbow had said absolutely nothing and Life did that to him, that would still be embarrassing for the foreign scene. They sent their best, he got rekt in a ridiculous fashion.
You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
Life played three games and won because he was better. The results is completly irrelevant, this is what I'm trying to get accross and you are claiming to get. Him not bothering to try his best, or at all, which was all that was expected of him is what makes it look bad. Nobody expects foreigners to beat koreans but we at least expected him to actually fucking try. The games themself are completly irrelevant, his attitude and complete lack of repsect towards fans, torunement host and the players whos spot he took is the problem.
On November 04 2015 01:53 DonDomingo wrote: What's with the entitlement and hysteria? Lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything - except in your minds.
Well, if that is his attitude, then he is getting what he deserves.
I'm not good enough to qualify for BlizzCon myself. Along comes Lilbow who manages to qualify. He then chooses to prioritize Legacy of the Void. How dare he choose differently than I imagine I would if I were in his stead! I am angry. Better announce on TeamLiquid | Twitter | Reddit and | or elsewhere that Lilbow is a disgrace to mankind for his unsportmanshiplike conduct and for letting down all of us who cheered for the last remaining foreign hope.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
I think the point is, people new to SC2 are much more likely to shrug their shoulders at Lilbow and ignore foreign events if that's how much they care about the game. Instead they'll stick with the 15 players who put on good shows and assume the place to watch them is GSL / PL / Korean events.
This was a mentality a lot of people had for *not* watching foreign events before they started inviting a few Koreans after all.
Also, I'm glad the Stephano comparisons came up, because it was really obvious from peak to near-retirment (and comeback) Stephano that despite all his bluster he really did put work into the game. He just wanted to come off as this super-gifted genius at WoL (which I suppose he was). Lilbow trying to copy that attitude without the results (and secret preparation) just doesn't seem to be working out for him lol.
I don't think that Stephano practiced secretly or something, he just thought about the game a lot so indeed technically he didn't practice a lot. I don't remember where I got this idea nor if it's true.
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote]
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Except there's no problem - only in your hysterical minds.
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote: Your claim is perfectly clear, but I guess if it makes you feel superior to pretend I don't get it, go ahead.
The answer is, you are able to get away with the claim that he didn't try because the games looked bad. If he had said exactly what he has said and Life had played three macro games, ultimately winning due to being better, that wouldn't be embarrassing for the foreign scene. At the most Lilbow gets a slap on the wrist for venting on twitter after a loss, which everyone ever has done. If Lilbow had said absolutely nothing and Life did that to him, that would still be embarrassing for the foreign scene. They sent their best, he got rekt in a ridiculous fashion.
You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
Life played three games and won because he was better. The results is completly irrelevant, this is what I'm trying to get accross and you are claiming to get. Him not bothering to try his best, or at all, which was all that was expected of him is what makes it look bad. Nobody expects foreigners to beat koreans but we at least expected him to actually fucking try. The games themself are completly irrelevant, his attitude and complete lack of repsect towards fans, torunement host and the players whos spot he took is the problem.
He didn't take the spot of anyone. He claimed his spot. It was his. For the rest, this is basically a rehash of your argument, so see my previous post.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote: [quote]
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking. The bottom line is, Life took the tournament seriously, studied his opponent and exploited a weakness he found. Lilbow didn't and then bragged about it.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote: [quote]
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
When rogue cheeses maru he shows him respect but when life cheeses lilbow it's disrespectful? Lol those double standards.
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote] People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote] People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
When rogue cheeses maru he shows him respect but when life cheeses lilbow it's disrespectful? Lol those double standards.
Plot twist. Life admits that he, after studying Lilbow extensively, believed himself to stand no chance against him in a straight up game and thus chose to resort to cheese!
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote: [quote]
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Except there's no problem - only in your hysterical minds.
I do not recall insulting you. Please, try and return the favour. If you disagree, argue your point. Don't insult others.
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote] People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote] People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
When rogue cheeses maru he shows him respect but when life cheeses lilbow it's disrespectful? Lol those double standards.
ITT Life cheesed Lilbow because he was afraid of playing him in macro games
The combination of a tournament with starting prize money and LOTV being released very soon after is the real culprit here imo. Lilbow wasn't tactical about it, but I can hardly blame him, considering the potential wins/losses of each scenario.
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote] People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote] People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Except there's no problem - only in your hysterical minds.
I do not recall insulting you. Please, try and return the favour. If you disagree, argue your point. Don't insult others.
I'm not insulting you - only in your mind.
Edit:
I meant no offense. I am not responsible for your perception.
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote] People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote] People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
2. No you can't and you aren't. Why they are better is completly irrelevant. The fact is that they are better and Lilbow is shielded against better competition. Thus giving him a easier road to a competition and easy price money.
3. What do they offer?
4. I'm not taking a wild stab in the dark at this. I am one of those masters players and I have talked to several, master and gm, and non of the ones were aspiring to become professionals. It's like chess, we like to improve and compete but most us are not planning on doing it for a living.
1)You're back peddling. You called him "the representative." Now you're saying the foreign representative on that stage which means nothing as he's the only one so that's obvious enough. You say he's "supposed to be the best" which is the unreasonable expectations creeping in. I wouldn't consider him the best foreigner. One of the best, sure, but not the best. I do think it's unreasonable for you to think a pro has to prepare for every tournament (especially in cases with extenuating circumstances). The rest I can agree with. No doubt all eyes were on him and he fucked up.
2)You could say Lilbow is shielded or you could stay Korean players have unfair advantage due to "korean steroids." I know you get what I mean, but just to spell it out. 0 lag kr ladder, team houses, tournaments within driving distance. Oh, and Internet since Lilbow says he doesn't even have good connection in his home.
3)Switch the Korean names with the NA ones and see if anyone can tell the difference. MAYBE, if you were inside the replay you could check for macro mechanics, but from watching a vod REALLY hard.
4)No need to deny yourself your dream. If you want it, go for it. Anyone playing 1,500 games a season might as well be pro (or at least monetize their passion in some way through streaming etc). It's physically impossible to maintain 40 hrs a week job and play that much.
It's strange how you continue to insist Lilbow disgraced foreign sc2 when you say yourself you don't watch it and have "zero interest in keeping it alive."
1. He was the repesentative of foreign Starcraft, I assume that goes without saying. How he acted is how foreign Starcraft will be percived by those who don't watch it closely normally. Again, the assumpton everyone watching the world championship is going to have is that he as the only foreigner is gonna be the best. When he is on that stage this is what he has to represent. He doesn't ahve to win, but he does have to try. Yes I do think they need to prepare it is what makes them professional. It is what he owed the viewers, the tournament hosts and the players whos spot he took.
2. It doesn't matter, it is not unfair of someone to be better then you. Someone has a natural talent for something, that is not unfair to people who don't. It is unfair for someone to get weaker oponents and when he does not even appreciate the leg up his getting to the point where the payback is him giving everyone the finger I can't see a singel justification for it being there. Calling a teamhouse stereoids is hilarious, are you sugesting teamhouses should be illigal in Starcraft?
3. If you can't tell the difference between good and bad Starcraft, which is what you are saying, I would argue watching it at all is pointless. Then you might as well come over and watch me play.
4. I don't, and most people don't. I have several hobbys, and most people like being good at stuff they do, and that does not mean you want to go pro in it. I know several people who loves Starcraft, chess, football and whatever but non of them want's to try to be professional.
I did watch it and I wanted it to exist befor this game.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote: [quote]
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Except there's no problem - only in your hysterical minds.
I do not recall insulting you. Please, try and return the favour. If you disagree, argue your point. Don't insult others.
I'm not insulting you - only in your mind.
You said I am hysterical. I took offense to that. So, yeah. Whatever. Have a nice day.
Guys who defend lilbow over 'he wouldn't have gotten crap if he hadn't practced but still would have won' just show how far off from the point they are.
The fact is- Lilbow lost. If he won, Life would have got crap for being so bad. Also, none of this would hve happened because Lilbow wouldn't have tweeted this crap and dissed every progamer. The fact is- He hadn't practiced. The fact is- He should have practiced because he knew more than anybody that he stands a slim chance against Life and if he said that "he is going for the win" then he should have practiced his heart out. Whats this about Korean teams not practicing with lilbow so he didn't practice? They're concerned with their own players at Blizzcon.
The fact is- TLO's tweet heavily implies many foreign players asked lilbow if they could help him and lilbow just shunned them all. If you couldn't catch that tone, go pull your fanboy goggles off. You should also be mad at a lot of foreigners not helping their foreign hope. Really Snute? Really Zanster?
Speculation: Why would have Lilbow asked for Korean help, but avoid foreign help? ---------
My thought on that is this: Lilbow doesn't think foreigners are good enough to help him prepare, and it is better to not prepare at all.
If that was actually what lilbow was thinking, he automatically put himself in a higher category than any other foreigner, and thus disproves every fanboy saying we just had too much expectations for him when lilbow thought himself that he was the next hottest thing,
If Life had to personally practice with lilbow and spoonfeed him every goddamn game to get him to practice, he doesn't deserve anything. He's just a lazy dude who didn't even manage to get rank 1 GM.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote: [quote]
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
I just repeated Life's words. He said he studied Lilbow and that his wall-ins were weak and that he always puts the gateway in the natural, and that he planned to expolit that.
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote: Your claim is perfectly clear, but I guess if it makes you feel superior to pretend I don't get it, go ahead.
The answer is, you are able to get away with the claim that he didn't try because the games looked bad. If he had said exactly what he has said and Life had played three macro games, ultimately winning due to being better, that wouldn't be embarrassing for the foreign scene. At the most Lilbow gets a slap on the wrist for venting on twitter after a loss, which everyone ever has done. If Lilbow had said absolutely nothing and Life did that to him, that would still be embarrassing for the foreign scene. They sent their best, he got rekt in a ridiculous fashion.
You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
Life played three games and won because he was better. The results is completly irrelevant, this is what I'm trying to get accross and you are claiming to get. Him not bothering to try his best, or at all, which was all that was expected of him is what makes it look bad. Nobody expects foreigners to beat koreans but we at least expected him to actually fucking try. The games themself are completly irrelevant, his attitude and complete lack of repsect towards fans, torunement host and the players whos spot he took is the problem.
He didn't take the spot of anyone. He claimed his spot. It was his. For the rest, this is basically a rehash of your argument, so see my previous post.
He did not claim it, Blizzard have given foreigners a free pass to get into Blizzcon. He was shielded against better competition. Blizzard made a decision which gave him a free pass over better korean players. This is not earning it, he was giving it. He did beat weaker oponents but it would be like claiming the winner of my local tennisclubs tournament deserves a Wimbledon final spot.
You are presenting zero counter arguments in your previous post, until you do that I can't give you a new argument. You claimed people are angry because of the results which is just untrue.
On November 04 2015 01:53 DonDomingo wrote: What's with the entitlement and hysteria? Lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything - except in your minds.
Well, if that is his attitude, then he is getting what he deserves.
I'm not good enough to qualify for BlizzCon myself. Along comes Lilbow who manages to qualify. He then chooses to prioritize Legacy of the Void. How dare he choose differently than I imagine I would if I were in his stead! I am angry. Better announce on TeamLiquid | Twitter | Reddit and | or elsewhere that Lilbow is a disgrace to mankind for his unsportmanshiplike conduct and for letting down all of us who cheered for the last remaining foreign hope.
Why not?
Why come here to defend Lilbow? Using your logic, then I have no obligation to not criticize his unsportsman-like approach, except in your hysterical little mind.
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote]
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
2. No you can't and you aren't. Why they are better is completly irrelevant. The fact is that they are better and Lilbow is shielded against better competition. Thus giving him a easier road to a competition and easy price money.
3. What do they offer?
4. I'm not taking a wild stab in the dark at this. I am one of those masters players and I have talked to several, master and gm, and non of the ones were aspiring to become professionals. It's like chess, we like to improve and compete but most us are not planning on doing it for a living.
1)You're back peddling. You called him "the representative." Now you're saying the foreign representative on that stage which means nothing as he's the only one so that's obvious enough. You say he's "supposed to be the best" which is the unreasonable expectations creeping in. I wouldn't consider him the best foreigner. One of the best, sure, but not the best. I do think it's unreasonable for you to think a pro has to prepare for every tournament (especially in cases with extenuating circumstances). The rest I can agree with. No doubt all eyes were on him and he fucked up.
2)You could say Lilbow is shielded or you could stay Korean players have unfair advantage due to "korean steroids." I know you get what I mean, but just to spell it out. 0 lag kr ladder, team houses, tournaments within driving distance. Oh, and Internet since Lilbow says he doesn't even have good connection in his home.
3)Switch the Korean names with the NA ones and see if anyone can tell the difference. MAYBE, if you were inside the replay you could check for macro mechanics, but from watching a vod REALLY hard.
4)No need to deny yourself your dream. If you want it, go for it. Anyone playing 1,500 games a season might as well be pro (or at least monetize their passion in some way through streaming etc). It's physically impossible to maintain 40 hrs a week job and play that much.
It's strange how you continue to insist Lilbow disgraced foreign sc2 when you say yourself you don't watch it and have "zero interest in keeping it alive."
1. He was the repesentative of foreign Starcraft, I assume that goes without saying. How he acted is how foreign Starcraft will be percived by those who don't watch it closely. Again, the assumpton everyone watching the world championship is going to make is that he as the only foreigner is gonna be the best. When he is on that stage this is what he has to represent. He doesn't have to win, but he does have to try. Yes I do think they need to prepare it is what makes them professional. It is what he owed the viewers, the tournament hosts and the players whos spot he took.
2. It doesn't matter, it is not unfair of someone to be better then you. Someone has a natural talent for something, that is not unfair to people who don't. It is unfair for someone to get weaker oponents and when he does not even appreciate the leg up his getting to the point where the payback is him giving everyone the finger I can't see a singel justification for it being there. Calling a teamhouse stereoids is hilarious, are you sugesting teamhouses should be illigal in Starcraft?
3. If you can't tell the difference between good and bad Starcraft, which is what you are saying, I would argue watching it at all is pointless. Then you might as well come over and watch me play.
4. I don't, and most people don't. I have several hobbys, and most people like being good at stuff they do, and that does not mean you want to go pro in it. I know several people who loves Starcraft, chess, football and whatever but non of them want's to try to be professional.
I did watch it and I wanted it to exist befor this game.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote: [quote]
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
On November 04 2015 01:53 DonDomingo wrote: What's with the entitlement and hysteria? Lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything - except in your minds.
Well, if that is his attitude, then he is getting what he deserves.
I'm not good enough to qualify for BlizzCon myself. Along comes Lilbow who manages to qualify. He then chooses to prioritize Legacy of the Void. How dare he choose differently than I imagine I would if I were in his stead! I am angry. Better announce on TeamLiquid | Twitter | Reddit and | or elsewhere that Lilbow is a disgrace to mankind for his unsportmanshiplike conduct and for letting down all of us who cheered for the last remaining foreign hope.
Why not?
Why come here to defend Lilbow? Using your logic, then I have no obligation to not criticize his unsportsman-like approach, except in your hysterical little mind.
Why discuss SC2? Why care at all?
You're more than welcome to discuss and speculate to your heart's content. It's harmless and most amusing.
Edit:
I'm not defending anyone. I'm just wondering out loud why you guys are so upset.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
[quote]
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Maybe, just maybe lilbow is a 20yo who sometimes do and says stupid shit like well every fucking kid ?! That doesn't make him a disgrace or a sub human or some shit.
Oh I forget we are the great SC2 community no one ever ever commit mistakes around here !!! Sorry
(Thank god FB only arrived when I was in college and thanks god nobody knows me and I was able to delete a lot)
On November 04 2015 02:28 TRaFFiC wrote: [quote] 1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
On November 04 2015 03:58 Philozovic wrote: Maybe, just maybe lilbow is a 20yo who sometimes do and says stupid shit like well every fucking kid ?! That doesn't make him a disgrace or a sub human or some shit.
Oh I forget we are the great SC2 community no one ever ever commit mistakes around here !!! Sorry
(Thank god FB only arrived when I was in college and thanks god nobody knows me and I was able to delete a lot)
Oh get of your high horse. Nobody is calling him subhuman so stop fighting windmills. His actions were bad and he got a backlash for it. The only reason this is even a dsicussion is because there are people defending this behaviour.
It's pretty pathetic that a 'community figure' would make a thread like this and doesn't even realise that the main reason Lilbow exclusively practiced LotV was because he COULDN'T practice HotS...
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
On November 04 2015 04:02 ZAiNs wrote: It's pretty pathetic that a 'community figure' would make a thread like this and doesn't even realise that the main reason Lilbow exclusively practiced LotV was because he COULDN'T practice HotS...
TLO stated that Lilbow refused practice help that was offered to him.
On November 04 2015 04:02 ZAiNs wrote: It's pretty pathetic that a 'community figure' would make a thread like this and doesn't even realise that the main reason Lilbow exclusively practiced LotV was because he COULDN'T practice HotS...
Have you read the thread? This has been covered. TLO implied that Lilbow was offered practice from other pros and turned it down.
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
Maybe Life actually wanted lilbow to block it and actually try to get a game off of him?
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:
On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: "1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament" Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress...
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story.
I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did.
People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games.
I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose.
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league.
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
I think the point is, people new to SC2 are much more likely to shrug their shoulders at Lilbow and ignore foreign events if that's how much they care about the game. Instead they'll stick with the 15 players who put on good shows and assume the place to watch them is GSL / PL / Korean events.
This was a mentality a lot of people had for *not* watching foreign events before they started inviting a few Koreans after all.
Also, I'm glad the Stephano comparisons came up, because it was really obvious from peak to near-retirment (and comeback) Stephano that despite all his bluster he really did put work into the game. He just wanted to come off as this super-gifted genius at WoL (which I suppose he was). Lilbow trying to copy that attitude without the results (and secret preparation) just doesn't seem to be working out for him lol.
I don't think that Stephano practiced secretly or something, he just thought about the game a lot so indeed technically he didn't practice a lot. I don't remember where I got this idea nor if it's true.
Notice I specifically never say Stephano practiced a lot =p. Because it's true, you can get away with deep conceptualizations if you do it right. Koreans call it image training, Cannonball Adderly is a Saxophone legend who would never practice, just look at sheet music for hours before a concert and play everything perfectly the first time.
I don't know if that's what Stephano did or if he had a smurf, but either way you could tell he put work into the game during his prime.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
[quote]
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals).
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2.
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
You have to remember that when I showed him a quote from Lilbow refuting what he was arguing that he told me Lilbow made a typo...
On November 04 2015 04:02 ZAiNs wrote: It's pretty pathetic that a 'community figure' would make a thread like this and doesn't even realise that the main reason Lilbow exclusively practiced LotV was because he COULDN'T practice HotS...
Have you read the thread? This has been covered. TLO implied that Lilbow was offered practice from other pros and turned it down.
Yes, I know, but the opening post does not address this at all even though it is THE REASON he didn't practice HotS, and was made by a community figure. TLO said Lilbow was offered practice, but against who? Pretty much all foreigners switched to LotV a while ago, practicing vs people who haven't played HotS for ages is just a waste of time, as is playing vs some mid GMs who played in some of the remaining HotS tournaments (no offense to them).
On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote: [quote] Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
They played as well as they needed to. Innovation needed to play that well to win, Life needed only to six pool to win. What on earth has that to do with respect?
On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote: [quote] Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
He studied Lilbow, noticed his weakness and exploited it, as stated by Life himself. I don't understand why a certain build order choice (that is still relevant to the discovered weakness) after being 2-0 up is showing disrespect.
On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote: [quote] Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
On November 04 2015 04:10 Wuster wrote: You have to remember that when I showed him a quote from Lilbow refuting what he was arguing that he told me Lilbow made a typo...
I didn't "tell" you that. I argued it, based on the context of the sentence. There are two contradictory statements, one made in a preparation video for the game and one made in a facebook post. One makes sense, one doesn't. I therefore choose to believe the first one over the second one, based on, you know, things making sense. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But tell me, did you ever argue anything against the video from Lilbow "refuting" what you said? No? Guess you are dishonest then.
I said it before and I'll say it again. The fact that people are STILL defending Lilbow is just the prime example of everything wrong with this community
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
Did Life 6-pool him because he believed it was his best chance to win? No? Guess your argumentary is random then.
On November 04 2015 04:10 Wuster wrote: You have to remember that when I showed him a quote from Lilbow refuting what he was arguing that he told me Lilbow made a typo...
I didn't "tell" you that. I argued it, based on the context of the sentence. There are two contradictory statements, one made in a preparation video for the game and one made in a facebook post. One makes sense, one doesn't. I therefore choose to believe the first one over the second one, based on, you know, things making sense. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But tell me, did you ever argue anything against the video from Lilbow "refuting" what you said? No? Guess you are dishonest then.
Generally that when you evaluate conflicting statements, you give more weight to the more recently made one.
Notice I specifically never say Stephano practiced a lot =p. Because it's true, you can get away with deep conceptualizations if you do it right. Koreans call it image training, Cannonball Adderly is a Saxophone legend who would never practice, just look at sheet music for hours before a concert and play everything perfectly the first time.
I don't know if that's what Stephano did or if he had a smurf, but either way you could tell he put work into the game during his prime.
It seems to be an inside joke among pros to talk about Stephano not practicing and wink. Stephano liked to hype stuff up by claiming he didn't practice, and saying stuff like "No Protoss can beat me." People eat that stuff up, but I don't think he bought in to his own hype, and other pros certainly didn't. It was just bravado.
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
Did Life 6-pool him because he believed it was his best chance to win? No? Guess your argumentary is random then.
It doesn't matter why he did his build order choices, it only matters if it's succesful or not. He won so apparently he did the right build order choice.
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
I didn't know players weren't allowed to cheese in big tournaments. Better take sOs 100k back because of bad sportmanship
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
I didn't know players weren't allowed to cheese in big tournaments. Better take sOs 100k back because of bad sportmanship
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you.
Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
Maybe Life actually wanted lilbow to block it and actually try to get a game off of him?
So basically, Korean player Life is nice enough to gift Lilbow games in the biggest tournament of the year. And this is totally fine. It doesn't sacrifice the "competitive integrity" of the tournament.
But foreign players don't understand what "programmer" means. They are all disgraces like Lilbow.
You seem incredibly biased towards Koreans.
I don't know how you're allowed to have 2 accounts on here (DCstarcraftgal). Are we supposed to believe those are the thoughts of the Korean community and not your own? From now on, I take everything you say with a huge pinch of salt.
@ddayzy just repeating stuff at this point. Agree to disagree.
On November 04 2015 03:55 Penev wrote: [quote] Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
I didn't know players weren't allowed to cheese in big tournaments. Better take sOs 100k back because of bad sportmanship
Who said you can't cheese? Why did you quote me?
you said cheesing in a big tournament is disrespectful
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
How can sound waves be disrespectful? I might make Mom jokes, but there is no disrespect, they're just sound waves friend.
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
I didn't know players weren't allowed to cheese in big tournaments. Better take sOs 100k back because of bad sportmanship
Who said you can't cheese? Why did you quote me?
you said cheesing in a big tournament is disrespectful
6 pooling is. And I love it. I never said pros shouldn't do it. But I can't recall the last 6 pool I saw in a major tournament. 7 pools, sure, here and there. 10 pools, hell yeah. But a 6 pool? That was sending a message.
On November 04 2015 03:55 Penev wrote: [quote] Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
How can sound waves be disrespectful? I might make Mom jokes, but there is no disrespect, they're just sound waves friend.
On November 04 2015 03:55 Penev wrote: [quote] Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
How can sound waves be disrespectful? I might make Mom jokes, but there is no disrespect, they're just sound waves friend.
No please, do explain, how is a build order disrespectful?
On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote: [quote] Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
Maybe Life actually wanted lilbow to block it and actually try to get a game off of him?
So basically, Korean player Life is nice enough to gift Lilbow games in the biggest tournament of the year. And this is totally fine. It doesn't sacrifice the "competitive integrity" of the tournament.
But foreign players don't understand what "programmer" means. They are all disgraces like Lilbow.
You seem incredibly biased towards Koreans.
I don't know how you're allowed to have 2 accounts on here (DCstarcraftgal). Are we supposed to believe those are the thoughts of the Korean community and not your own? From now on, I take everything you say with a huge pinch of salt.
@ddayzy just repeating stuff at this point. Agree to disagree.
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
How can sound waves be disrespectful? I might make Mom jokes, but there is no disrespect, they're just sound waves friend.
No please, do explain, how is a build order disrespectful?
A pro in the biggest tournament of the year doing a 6 pool is the equivalent of that pro saying GTFO. Why is this even debatable? (Edit: maybe we have a disagreement on terminology. By disrespectful, I don't mean that it was a douche move, I mean it was a competitor's way of saying, "You don't belong here")
Lilbow failed progressively easier skill checks, really all there is to it. Once Life saw he couldn't defend shit why would Life reveal anything but the most basic of build orders so that his opponents have more to study? It was a well-executed series by Life both in-game and out of game.
As for this whole fantasy of cheesing not being "legit" or "just protoss/zerg/terran" things (really just whatever race the poster seems to hate most) it's actual bullshit. They are there to win (or should be there to win in the case of Lilbow), if you think anything else you're actually functionally retarded.
On November 04 2015 03:58 Penev wrote: [quote] Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
I didn't know players weren't allowed to cheese in big tournaments. Better take sOs 100k back because of bad sportmanship
Who said you can't cheese? Why did you quote me?
you said cheesing in a big tournament is disrespectful
6 pooling is. And I love it. I never said pros shouldn't do it. But I can't recall the last 6 pool I saw in a major tournament. 7 pools, sure, here and there. 10 pools, hell yeah. But a 6 pool? That was sending a message.
I have NEVER seen a player proxying 3 of his barracks in a corner of the map and researchin stim there. yet polt did it. ultimate disrespect. And he even lost what makes it more shameful. He wanted to send a message that rain can lose to such ridicolous stuff but he failed. Disrespectful prick.
On November 04 2015 03:58 Penev wrote: [quote] Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
How can sound waves be disrespectful? I might make Mom jokes, but there is no disrespect, they're just sound waves friend.
No please, do explain, how is a build order disrespectful?
A pro in the biggest tournament of the year doing a 6 pool is the equivalent of that pro saying GTFO. Why is this even debatable?
Why? Apparently it was the right choice in that game because he won with it. Please, again, do explain why it is disrespectful.
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
I didn't know players weren't allowed to cheese in big tournaments. Better take sOs 100k back because of bad sportmanship
Who said you can't cheese? Why did you quote me?
you said cheesing in a big tournament is disrespectful
6 pooling is. And I love it. I never said pros shouldn't do it. But I can't recall the last 6 pool I saw in a major tournament. 7 pools, sure, here and there. 10 pools, hell yeah. But a 6 pool? That was sending a message.
I have NEVER seen a player proxying 3 of his barracks in a corner of the map and researchin stim there. yet polt did it. ultimate disrespect. And he even lost what makes it more shameful. He wanted to send a message that rain can lose to such ridicolous stuff but he failed. Disrespectful prick.
So you think Life's choice to 6 pool carried no message with it? There is a difference between cheesing, and focking 6 pooling. I am all about cheese in tournaments. You keep implying I don't think it is OK. I haven't said that at all. All I am pointing out is that the choice to 6 pool carried a message. You disagree and feel it was a robotic logical choice with absolutely no connotations and sending no message about what he thinks of his opponent. I can't get behind that interpretation.
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
How can sound waves be disrespectful? I might make Mom jokes, but there is no disrespect, they're just sound waves friend.
No please, do explain, how is a build order disrespectful?
A pro in the biggest tournament of the year doing a 6 pool is the equivalent of that pro saying GTFO. Why is this even debatable?
Why? Apparently it was the right choice in that game because he won with it. Please, again, do explain why it is disrespectful.
On November 04 2015 04:02 Penev wrote: [quote] The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
I didn't know players weren't allowed to cheese in big tournaments. Better take sOs 100k back because of bad sportmanship
Who said you can't cheese? Why did you quote me?
you said cheesing in a big tournament is disrespectful
6 pooling is. And I love it. I never said pros shouldn't do it. But I can't recall the last 6 pool I saw in a major tournament. 7 pools, sure, here and there. 10 pools, hell yeah. But a 6 pool? That was sending a message.
I have NEVER seen a player proxying 3 of his barracks in a corner of the map and researchin stim there. yet polt did it. ultimate disrespect. And he even lost what makes it more shameful. He wanted to send a message that rain can lose to such ridicolous stuff but he failed. Disrespectful prick.
So you think Life's choice to 6 pool carried no message with it? There is a difference between cheesing, and focking 6 pooling. I am all about cheese in tournaments. You keep implying I don't think it is OK. I haven't said that at all. All I am pointing out is that the choice to 6 pool carried a message. You disagree and feel it was a robotic logical choice with absolutely no connotations and sending no message about what he thinks of his opponent. I can't get behind that interpretation.
It doesn't matter if he wanted to send a message or not. He chose a build order and won with it. Players play to win (well, unless they are lilbow) and if he won with his build it was the right choice.
On November 04 2015 04:02 Penev wrote: [quote] The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
How can sound waves be disrespectful? I might make Mom jokes, but there is no disrespect, they're just sound waves friend.
No please, do explain, how is a build order disrespectful?
A pro in the biggest tournament of the year doing a 6 pool is the equivalent of that pro saying GTFO. Why is this even debatable?
Why? Apparently it was the right choice in that game because he won with it. Please, again, do explain why it is disrespectful.
Right. And when Life throws down a manner hatch, it is just the right thing to do in that situation.
what has one thing with the other to do? a 6 pool is a strategy you execute with the goal of winning, manner hatches are "get out of my game" BM.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
I didn't know players weren't allowed to cheese in big tournaments. Better take sOs 100k back because of bad sportmanship
Who said you can't cheese? Why did you quote me?
you said cheesing in a big tournament is disrespectful
6 pooling is. And I love it. I never said pros shouldn't do it. But I can't recall the last 6 pool I saw in a major tournament. 7 pools, sure, here and there. 10 pools, hell yeah. But a 6 pool? That was sending a message.
I have NEVER seen a player proxying 3 of his barracks in a corner of the map and researchin stim there. yet polt did it. ultimate disrespect. And he even lost what makes it more shameful. He wanted to send a message that rain can lose to such ridicolous stuff but he failed. Disrespectful prick.
So you think Life's choice to 6 pool carried no message with it? There is a difference between cheesing, and focking 6 pooling. I am all about cheese in tournaments. You keep implying I don't think it is OK. I haven't said that at all. All I am pointing out is that the choice to 6 pool carried a message. You disagree and feel it was a robotic logical choice with absolutely no connotations and sending no message about what he thinks of his opponent. I can't get behind that interpretation.
It doesn't matter if he wanted to send a message or not. He chose a build order and won with it. Players play to win (well, unless they are lilbow) and if he won with his build it was the right choice.
I agree, great choice. Why are we arguing? We seem to agree on the beauty of his choice. I just see a message there, you seem not to.
On November 04 2015 04:02 Penev wrote: [quote] The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
How can sound waves be disrespectful? I might make Mom jokes, but there is no disrespect, they're just sound waves friend.
No please, do explain, how is a build order disrespectful?
A pro in the biggest tournament of the year doing a 6 pool is the equivalent of that pro saying GTFO. Why is this even debatable?
Why? Apparently it was the right choice in that game because he won with it. Please, again, do explain why it is disrespectful.
Right. And when Life throws down a manner hatch, it is just the right thing to do in that situation.
You still have no answeared, should we just conclude with you not having one and call it a day or do you actually want to produce a reason?
Six pooling is a strategy, used by many pros in tournaments, sometimes because they think the oposition is stronger. In a tournament you want to reveale as little of your strategy as possible. When you correctly asses your oponent can't hold a six pool it is disrespectful to do one becuase? Toying with him and draging the match out just for the hell of it would be disrespectful. Correctly assesing your oponents skill and playign accordingly is not. Or are you saying it is disrespectful to correctly asses Lilbow skill level?
On November 04 2015 04:13 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
I didn't know players weren't allowed to cheese in big tournaments. Better take sOs 100k back because of bad sportmanship
Who said you can't cheese? Why did you quote me?
you said cheesing in a big tournament is disrespectful
6 pooling is. And I love it. I never said pros shouldn't do it. But I can't recall the last 6 pool I saw in a major tournament. 7 pools, sure, here and there. 10 pools, hell yeah. But a 6 pool? That was sending a message.
I have NEVER seen a player proxying 3 of his barracks in a corner of the map and researchin stim there. yet polt did it. ultimate disrespect. And he even lost what makes it more shameful. He wanted to send a message that rain can lose to such ridicolous stuff but he failed. Disrespectful prick.
So you think Life's choice to 6 pool carried no message with it? There is a difference between cheesing, and focking 6 pooling. I am all about cheese in tournaments. You keep implying I don't think it is OK. I haven't said that at all. All I am pointing out is that the choice to 6 pool carried a message. You disagree and feel it was a robotic logical choice with absolutely no connotations and sending no message about what he thinks of his opponent. I can't get behind that interpretation.
It doesn't matter if he wanted to send a message or not. He chose a build order and won with it. Players play to win (well, unless they are lilbow) and if he won with his build it was the right choice.
I agree, great choice. Why are we arguing? We seem to agree on the beauty of his choice. I just see a message there, you seem not to.
Life saw after the first game that his opponent is too dumb to scout. After the second game he saw that he's also too weak to defend basic allins, even if scouted. So in the third game he just wiped the floor with him. It feels like he did the right thing.
I must say that I've been playing and watching SC for over 15 years and I don't remember a series that was so fucking painful to watch. This french kid got so manhandled I can't even uderstand how he was allowed to play in such a big tournament. I saw diamond players defending better than he did.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
How can sound waves be disrespectful? I might make Mom jokes, but there is no disrespect, they're just sound waves friend.
No please, do explain, how is a build order disrespectful?
A pro in the biggest tournament of the year doing a 6 pool is the equivalent of that pro saying GTFO. Why is this even debatable?
Why? Apparently it was the right choice in that game because he won with it. Please, again, do explain why it is disrespectful.
Right. And when Life throws down a manner hatch, it is just the right thing to do in that situation.
what has one thing with the other to do? a 6 pool is a strategy you execute with the goal of winning, manner hatches are "get out of my game" BM.
Maybe he chose a 6 pool over the much much more common and successful 7 pool, planning on having 5 extra seconds to get in. I obviously can't state for a fact that that wasn't his thinking. I highly doubt it. Especially after the first two games.
I do agree that the six pool was, apart from being a winnig strategy, somewhat indicative of what Life thought of Lilbow. His actions after the game say even more. He just took his earphones off and got up like he just finished a ladder section on his smurf. The point remains. He studied Lilbow, he found a weakness thet can be exploited, and he won by doing just that. Lilbow didn't even bother to scout for ling aggression, something Life is famous for. He didn't prepare, he didn't practice, and he bragged about it later.
On November 04 2015 04:54 Sakat wrote: I do agree that the six pool was, apart from being a winnig strategy, somewhat indicative of what Life thought of Lilbow. His actions after the game say even more. He just took his earphones off and got up like he just finished a ladder section on his smurf. The point remains. He studied Lilbow, he found a weakness thet can be exploited, and he won by doing just that. Lilbow didn't even bother to scout for ling aggression, something Life is famous for. He didn't prepare, he didn't practice, and he bragged about it later.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
How can sound waves be disrespectful? I might make Mom jokes, but there is no disrespect, they're just sound waves friend.
No please, do explain, how is a build order disrespectful?
A pro in the biggest tournament of the year doing a 6 pool is the equivalent of that pro saying GTFO. Why is this even debatable?
Why? Apparently it was the right choice in that game because he won with it. Please, again, do explain why it is disrespectful.
Right. And when Life throws down a manner hatch, it is just the right thing to do in that situation.
You still have no answeared, should we just conclude with you not having one and call it a day or do you actually want to produce a reason?
Six pooling is a strategy, used by many pros in tournaments, sometimes because they think the oposition is stronger. In a tournament you want to reveale as little of your strategy as possible. When you correctly asses your oponent can't hold a six pool it is disrespectful to do one becuase? Toying with him and draging the match out just for the hell of it would be disrespectful. Correctly assesing your oponents skill and playign accordingly is not. Or are you saying it is disrespectful to correctly asses Lilbow skill level?
A manner hatch is a strategy too for that matter. It is playing mind games with your opponent and you can maybe get a gg when perhaps one isn't warranted. I have given plenty of reasons why 6 pooling is disrespectful in this context.
You however seem confused about what I am arguing. I never said 6 pool isn't a strategy. Planetary Fortress rush in the main is a strategy too.
I never said Life shouldn't have 6 pooled. I found it hilarious. By choosing to 6 pool, he was doing more than picking a winning strategy. He was saying GTFO. You apparently have seen lots of 6 pools in high level tournaments lately. I guess I missed those, because it has years since I can remember one.
On November 04 2015 04:54 Sakat wrote: I do agree that the six pool was, apart from being a winnig strategy, somewhat indicative of what Life thought of Lilbow. His actions after the game say even more. He just took his earphones off and got up like he just finished a ladder section on his smurf. The point remains. He studied Lilbow, he found a weakness thet can be exploited, and he won by doing just that. Lilbow didn't even bother to scout for ling aggression, something Life is famous for. He didn't prepare, he didn't practice, and he bragged about it later.
Thanks for your honesty.
I have no problem with stating that. But, It was a winning strategy, it was also a way to hide his actual builds in case he would beat Inno. His actions were disrespectful. Tha six pool itself was a thought out move.
On November 04 2015 04:54 Sakat wrote: He just took his earphones off and got up like he just finished a ladder section on his smurf. .
What else should he have done?
Well, If I was in his position I would at least shake his hand.
TBF, I didn't see any handshakes after any of the games.
Handshaking seems to be a mixed bag in SC2. I recall Hero cussing out Taeja when he went to shake his hand at a dreamhack once... and they were teammates.
On November 04 2015 04:13 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] Accusing a certain playstyle of being disrespectful is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum. You don't show respect in your games. you play to fucking win. The respect thing happens outside of the game. Did Mvp disrespect squirtle because he cheesed him in game 7 of the gsl finals? Did BoxeR disrepect yellow when he bunker rushed him 3 times in a row. A win is a fucking win and there is no "respectful playstyle" or "unrespectful playstyle" lol.
If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
How can sound waves be disrespectful? I might make Mom jokes, but there is no disrespect, they're just sound waves friend.
No please, do explain, how is a build order disrespectful?
A pro in the biggest tournament of the year doing a 6 pool is the equivalent of that pro saying GTFO. Why is this even debatable?
Why? Apparently it was the right choice in that game because he won with it. Please, again, do explain why it is disrespectful.
Right. And when Life throws down a manner hatch, it is just the right thing to do in that situation.
You still have no answeared, should we just conclude with you not having one and call it a day or do you actually want to produce a reason?
Six pooling is a strategy, used by many pros in tournaments, sometimes because they think the oposition is stronger. In a tournament you want to reveale as little of your strategy as possible. When you correctly asses your oponent can't hold a six pool it is disrespectful to do one becuase? Toying with him and draging the match out just for the hell of it would be disrespectful. Correctly assesing your oponents skill and playign accordingly is not. Or are you saying it is disrespectful to correctly asses Lilbow skill level?
A manner hatch is a strategy too for that matter. It is playing mind games with your opponent and you can maybe get a gg when perhaps one isn't warranted. I have given plenty of reasons why 6 pooling is disrespectful in this context.
You however seem confused about what I am arguing. I never said 6 pool isn't a strategy. Planetary Fortress rush in the main is a strategy too.
I never said Life shouldn't have 6 pooled. I found it hilarious. By choosing to 6 pool, he was doing more than picking a winning strategy. He was saying GTFO. You apparently have seen lots of 6 pools in high level tournaments lately. I guess I missed those, because it has years since I can remember one.
Even if he wanted to say that did Lilbow deserve anything better? after Life saw he can't even defend basic allins should he think "ah he's really bad, now let him play a long macro game so he doesn't look that bad". If you fail so badly at defending basic allins you deserve a GTFO (although i still don't understand how a build order can be considered BM)
On November 04 2015 04:02 ZAiNs wrote: It's pretty pathetic that a 'community figure' would make a thread like this and doesn't even realise that the main reason Lilbow exclusively practiced LotV was because he COULDN'T practice HotS...
You haven't followed the dialogue or you'd know TLO and other foreign pros offered him help.
Watched the post-game talk now, and wow did they butcher Lilbow. He deserved for rekt, but done is done. I almost think the rekt that was handed out by ictrl and TLO is enough punishment .
close the thread or keep your personal jabs outside of thread and in PMs or similar please. i feel that statement is warranted right now from how the last several pages have gone.
"Toying with him and dragging the match out just for the hell of it would be disrespectful."
that much is right, in part. It's also part of how players work though. There are plenty who don't have the practice in order to end games when they have the opportunities to (apparent in bronze to pro level of play). i don't understand the attachment to arguing over this word though. you know an argument is going sour when you're restating the same shit at the each other over and over again. it's respectful it's disrespectul it was part of the winning process and is therefore respectful it's disrespectul, are you kidding me?
On November 04 2015 04:23 frazzle wrote: [quote] If 6 pooling your opponent at BlizzCon doesn't qualify as disrespecting your opponent, then I'm not sure what would qualify in SC2. Being disrespectful in this context is of course perfectly OK. SC2 is always at its most entertaining when all the big boys are swinging their dicks right in front of everyone. I say, more swinging dicks.
Why is it disrespectful? How can a build order be disrespectful?
How can sound waves be disrespectful? I might make Mom jokes, but there is no disrespect, they're just sound waves friend.
No please, do explain, how is a build order disrespectful?
A pro in the biggest tournament of the year doing a 6 pool is the equivalent of that pro saying GTFO. Why is this even debatable?
Why? Apparently it was the right choice in that game because he won with it. Please, again, do explain why it is disrespectful.
Right. And when Life throws down a manner hatch, it is just the right thing to do in that situation.
You still have no answeared, should we just conclude with you not having one and call it a day or do you actually want to produce a reason?
Six pooling is a strategy, used by many pros in tournaments, sometimes because they think the oposition is stronger. In a tournament you want to reveale as little of your strategy as possible. When you correctly asses your oponent can't hold a six pool it is disrespectful to do one becuase? Toying with him and draging the match out just for the hell of it would be disrespectful. Correctly assesing your oponents skill and playign accordingly is not. Or are you saying it is disrespectful to correctly asses Lilbow skill level?
A manner hatch is a strategy too for that matter. It is playing mind games with your opponent and you can maybe get a gg when perhaps one isn't warranted. I have given plenty of reasons why 6 pooling is disrespectful in this context.
You however seem confused about what I am arguing. I never said 6 pool isn't a strategy. Planetary Fortress rush in the main is a strategy too.
I never said Life shouldn't have 6 pooled. I found it hilarious. By choosing to 6 pool, he was doing more than picking a winning strategy. He was saying GTFO. You apparently have seen lots of 6 pools in high level tournaments lately. I guess I missed those, because it has years since I can remember one.
Even if he wanted to say that did Lilbow deserve anything better? after Life saw he can't even defend basic allins should he think "ah he's really bad, now let him play a long macro game so he doesn't look that bad". If you fail so badly at defending basic allins you deserve a GTFO (although i still don't understand how a build order can be considered BM)
The best analogy I can think of is Babe Ruth's called shot. I know it is baseball and so Europeans might not get it. Life beat Lilbow down 2 games in a row, then came up to the plate and said exactly what he planned to do and then did it. I'm gonna 6 pool you now. Stop me. That is disrespect, but in an OK competitive way. If someone came up to the plate today and pointed to the bleachers, the pitcher would probably start throwing pitches at his head.
(Edit: after thinking about it, the "Eephus pitch" is a better analogy. Here's a famous home run hitter being struck out by one. It was shamful for the batter to strike out, but the pitcher made a good call knowing this slugger probably wouldn't adapt. There definitely was a bit of a "OK big dummy, let's see if you can hit a slow lob" insult going on there, and the pitcher knew it. The batter smashed his helmet to pieces after this (not on the video though))
On November 04 2015 05:12 Muffloe wrote: Watched the post-game talk now, and wow did they butcher Lilbow. He deserved for rekt, but done is done. I almost think the rekt that was handed out by ictrl and TLO is enough punishment .
I also re-watched the entire series, pre/post-game analysis and all that was presented during the stream. It's a little surreal how much foreshadowing was going on; ToD and Kaeleris pronouncing the beatdown as it was happening and everyone generally being apprehensive about the reactions to life's aggression. Even rotti broke down the games in what little time he had, in case nobody has played in those exact situations as protoss before. There were ways to hold it off, there were ways to scout, and there is the fact that Life himself alluded to it with his crazy amount of confidence. Certainly in hindsight, Lilbow scarcely makes those same mistakes again but as i've said much earlier in this thread, he can never have those moments back again. I mean it's something to dote on if you're in Lilbow's position, without a single doubt. Look forward to him being stronger, or crumbling, that's up to you.
I recommend rewatching it to enjoy it from another angle. In this case, i already knew how it was going to happen, but to look for what exactly went wrong and to then read into expressions through the camera and through little game details, i feel you're understanding a little bit more when ToD and Kaeleris continue talking you through it. More weight to it. As a whole-in my opinion-there's a little bit of psychoticism to it, except in this case it's all a long droning line from start to finish where the strategies from Life (very accurately described by casters and analysts) kept devolving and getting funnier.
If i am a player opposite of Life--calling up experiences on stage in other and maybe not so similar competitive experiences i've had in life--i'm simply so disappointed in myself after i think everything through. i can't re-do ever, and i overlooked more than just a few things. It's haunting.
I hope that this type of situation doesn't come up in such an important eSports event again. No matter which side of the debate you are on, the recent WCS champion, a "professional player" did not practice for the Blizzcon after qualifying. No matter his reasons or lack of reasons, I hope it never happens again.
With all the bad news coming right before Blizzcon, many in the community needed a feel good story. Not this.
Let us all hope for a good kick off to LotV in the coming week.
On November 04 2015 04:54 Sakat wrote: I do agree that the six pool was, apart from being a winnig strategy, somewhat indicative of what Life thought of Lilbow. His actions after the game say even more. He just took his earphones off and got up like he just finished a ladder section on his smurf. The point remains. He studied Lilbow, he found a weakness thet can be exploited, and he won by doing just that. Lilbow didn't even bother to scout for ling aggression, something Life is famous for. He didn't prepare, he didn't practice, and he bragged about it later.
Thanks for your honesty.
I have no problem with stating that. But, It was a winning strategy, it was also a way to hide his actual builds in case he would beat Inno. His actions were disrespectful. Tha six pool itself was a thought out move.
Life has been eliminating people from high-key tournaments with 6pools and similar builds since 2012. It's nothing new or particular to Lilbow. It wasn't planned-out disrespect intended to embarrass the opponent - he has only set out to actually make the opponent look bad a single time in a tournament setting (and I think he felt bad about it afterwards) In all cases but that one, Life doesn't care who the opponent is when he's playing. This was nothing special, unless you think he also disrespects Parting, Stats, Zest and herO.
On November 04 2015 04:54 Sakat wrote: I do agree that the six pool was, apart from being a winnig strategy, somewhat indicative of what Life thought of Lilbow. His actions after the game say even more. He just took his earphones off and got up like he just finished a ladder section on his smurf. The point remains. He studied Lilbow, he found a weakness thet can be exploited, and he won by doing just that. Lilbow didn't even bother to scout for ling aggression, something Life is famous for. He didn't prepare, he didn't practice, and he bragged about it later.
Thanks for your honesty.
I have no problem with stating that. But, It was a winning strategy, it was also a way to hide his actual builds in case he would beat Inno. His actions were disrespectful. Tha six pool itself was a thought out move.
Life has been eliminating people from high-key tournaments with 6pools and similar builds since 2012. It's nothing new or particular to Lilbow. It wasn't planned-out disrespect intended to embarrass the opponent - he has only set out to actually make the opponent look bad a single time in a tournament setting (and I think he felt bad about it afterwards) In all cases but that one, Life doesn't care who the opponent is when he's playing.
Well, he did 6 pool Stats a couple weeks ago, so I stand corrected in saying it's been years since the last 6 pool. Nevertheless, 6 pooling is iconically bad at this point. No one really does it on modern maps. In the KungFu cup it came off as just a total surprise wtf build, in BlizzCon, given the previous 2 games, it came off as a snub and almost logically followed from those games. But I relent, maybe it isn't as much of an obvious insult as I had previously implied.
And who was it Life did try to embarrass? Naniwa in IEM?
On November 04 2015 04:54 Sakat wrote: I do agree that the six pool was, apart from being a winnig strategy, somewhat indicative of what Life thought of Lilbow. His actions after the game say even more. He just took his earphones off and got up like he just finished a ladder section on his smurf. The point remains. He studied Lilbow, he found a weakness thet can be exploited, and he won by doing just that. Lilbow didn't even bother to scout for ling aggression, something Life is famous for. He didn't prepare, he didn't practice, and he bragged about it later.
Thanks for your honesty.
I have no problem with stating that. But, It was a winning strategy, it was also a way to hide his actual builds in case he would beat Inno. His actions were disrespectful. Tha six pool itself was a thought out move.
Life has been eliminating people from high-key tournaments with 6pools and similar builds since 2012. It's nothing new or particular to Lilbow. It wasn't planned-out disrespect intended to embarrass the opponent - he has only set out to actually make the opponent look bad a single time in a tournament setting (and I think he felt bad about it afterwards) In all cases but that one, Life doesn't care who the opponent is when he's playing.
Well, he did 6 pool Stats a couple weeks ago, so I stand corrected in saying it's been years since the last 6 pool. Nevertheless, 6 pooling is iconically bad at this point. No one really does it on modern maps. In the KungFu cup it came off as just a total surprise wtf build, in BlizzCon, given the previous 2 games, it came off as a snub and almost logically followed from those games. But I relent, maybe it isn't as much of an obvious insult as I had previously implied.
And who was it Life did try to embarrass? Naniwa in IEM?
It's grown to become increasingly uncommon in ZvP, granted, but it's still a tool in Life's toolbox that you need to take into consideration when facing him. It's hard to know which ling attack might be coming, of course, and players much better than Lilbow similarly struggle. It's just what Life does, really.
And yes, as I understand he went into the IEM NY series with the explicit intent of making Naniwa look like a fool. It could just as well be the result of something else than a dislike for Naniwa, but he clowned about very intently.
Immature young guy making regrettable statements. Should have never went down the, "Oh I did bad because I didn't try due to X and Y reasons" route. He was definitely hoping for some sympathy and to give his fans an excuse to hang on to, but in the end, it all backfired.
Should have just said, I'm sorry for my poor performance and I'll be back with a vengeance next year.
On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote: [quote] Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem
Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time?
Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking.
He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
Maybe Life actually wanted lilbow to block it and actually try to get a game off of him?
So basically, Korean player Life is nice enough to gift Lilbow games in the biggest tournament of the year. And this is totally fine. It doesn't sacrifice the "competitive integrity" of the tournament.
But foreign players don't understand what "programmer" means. They are all disgraces like Lilbow.
You seem incredibly biased towards Koreans.
I don't know how you're allowed to have 2 accounts on here (DCstarcraftgal). Are we supposed to believe those are the thoughts of the Korean community and not your own? From now on, I take everything you say with a huge pinch of salt.
@ddayzy just repeating stuff at this point. Agree to disagree.
I have 2 accounts to separate my opinions from the Gallery's. I run a public account where my opinions do not belong, and a private one where my opinions do. I don't know why you can't understand such a simple thing, and critique me for being biased in my representation of a community because of the very thing I use to stay unbiased.
And yeah, you probably should, at least SGall's, because the way Lilbow's name is bouncing around inven and PlayXP's as well as the one of the most prominent Korean wikipedia site.... DCStarcraftGall might as well have been defining the entire Korean community.
Might I need to remind you, that the Korean community was the most outspoken and called Life out on manhandling Lilbow so hard, that Life had no entertainer soul? Or maybe you just don't really read through posts.... because I strictly dissed lilbow for setting a bad image for other great players with brains, like Zanster, Snute, TLO(Now Dariojwa thanks to his tweets), Bunny, MaNa, all with the burning desire to show their fans all they had. Don't you see? Its not how lilbow lost, its about what he did afterwards.
The 6pool thought is just mine viewing Life as an entertainer, because so many of you guys seem to think a 6pool on a 1 player map is disrespect. To be honest, the 6 pool was such an easy hold for any player who would have gone forge first. I really think Life was doing lilbow a huge favor. Whether it was out of "block it lilbow and do your fans proud", or "lol noob can't block early lings" does not matter. Life gave lilbow a big chance and Lilbow threw it away. Its great that you are dreaming up conspiracy theories. One day you might even believe SGall is the illuminati!
On November 04 2015 08:10 Silvana wrote: I found Life's choices of builds fucking awesome, he is slowly turning me into a fan :D
Slowly?
You're not writing enough about him!
Truth is I'm on a trip so I haven't been able to catch up with Starcraft lately.. Couldn't even watch the few VODs my beloved KT boys gave us lately. But I plan on learning Zerg for LotV and I expect Life to be among the first players to do impressive things
I hear people doubting validity of posts as DCStarcraftGall, both here and in former posts.
So, I really didn't want to do this as some of the new nicknames given to Lilbow are very rude, but without the consent of SGall, I privately post this link.
This is from SGall user "Observer", the Daily Bonjwa and Shit votes, held after every major tourney. ctrl+f and copy paste these nicknames one at a time --> 릴보우 (lilbow), 릴찌질 (whinebow), 릴좆우 (Dickbow), 릴졸렬 (Cowardbow), 릴좌진 (Former Sgall nickname for lilbow named after Korean revolutionary), 릴자지 (lilpeen), 릴좆렬 (Cowardbow+ Dickbow), If the names are on the right, then that means the guy is Shit.
I try my best to keep as civil as possible, but I am pretty pissed by this whole issue, especially when people try to doubt something that many believe is necessary for the general direction of Starcraft especially with LOTV. Again, SGall does not know of this post and this is my private one. I take full blame for any warning and hate. This is my final post on this thread as RCCar, and probably even as DCStarcraftGall, since we have generally settled on the consensus that lilbow isn't worth talking about anymore.
Also, Some guy added subs to the movie 'Downfall' to parody this whole situation. I am not posting the link because the movie deals with a certain person that might anger Europeans in particular, and I don't want to translate entire subs.
If anyone so far had hopes that the Korean communities would be in any way lenient about Lilbow, go throw it out the window.
As a YellOw and FanTaSy fan who believes that giving it your all, no matter how dire the situation is, matters, this is an insult to my entire SC fan life of 10+ years. Thanks.
Even if Lilbow was in the wrong for doing this at Blizzcon, his net contribution is extremely positive owing to his performance in the prior 2 WCS seasons. As a matter of fact, all other foreigners should STFU in the face of Lilbow's accomplishments this year.
On November 04 2015 08:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i recall Testie as the "lone foriegn hope" getting absolutely rofl-copter pnwerized many times at Blizzcon.
based on Testie's approach to PR back then had twitter existed i'm pretty sure he would've said something similar to soothe his bruised ego.
same shit... different decade.
Playing Random in an invitational isn't really the same, is it?
On November 04 2015 04:52 Sadiv wrote: I must say that I've been playing and watching SC for over 15 years and I don't remember a series that was so fucking painful to watch. This french kid got so manhandled I can't even uderstand how he was allowed to play in such a big tournament. I saw diamond players defending better than he did.
That's a fact. So, here we have a interesting question that I saw already in this topic. Is Life's cheese the same than a diamond player can do it on ladder ? Is it defendable or not. Lilbow tried to defend cheese whithout play at 100% of his capacities, or he wasn't able to defend it at all ?
I think he began the serie as he lost it already. As I said before, I don't blame him to did'nt practice HOTS before the event, he has his reasons, but I would have liked to see him to tickle Life a little bit more.
Impressive that this Lil guy made it all the way to this tournament. Watching the series was quite painful though because he was no where in the same league as his opponent. But sometimes watching Goliath stomp David can also be fun.
On November 04 2015 04:52 Sadiv wrote: I must say that I've been playing and watching SC for over 15 years and I don't remember a series that was so fucking painful to watch. This french kid got so manhandled I can't even uderstand how he was allowed to play in such a big tournament. I saw diamond players defending better than he did.
That's a fact. So, here we have a interesting question that I saw already in this topic. Is Life's cheese the same than a diamond player can do it on ladder ? Is it defendable or not. Lilbow tried to defend cheese whithout play at 100% of his capacities, or he wasn't able to defend it at all ?
I think he began the serie as he lost it already. As I said before, I don't blame him to did'nt practice HOTS before the event, he has his reasons, but I would have liked to see him to tickle Life a little bit more.
The problem probably is that Lilbow doesn't meet this strategy too often so he doesn't know the proper response and he was playing LotV where is no 6 pool. IIRC he went 1 gate expand after he defended the 6 pool. He didn't scout Life therefore he didn't know if there's an expansion(wasn't). He saw many slow lings(too many vs 3 zealots without a choke). Taking natural is a big nono. Probably the best option if you want to go risky natural is to go a pylon near ramp, cannon touching your nexus and the nexus itself. This way you can protect you cannon and nexus with fewer units. Usually you go good old WoL 3 gate expand. He went "fuck it, I'm done" expansion... I was really shocked as a diamond Protoss player
Edit> Hm, I just realized that Lilbow had no forge therefore the only playable option was to go 3 gate expand.
Edit> Hm, I just realized that Lilbow had no forge therefore the only playable option was to go 3 gate expand.
Yep. I am Top Plat Terran and Mid Gold Zerg. I play Toss only vs IA, but I know well SC2 and the lack of forge shocked me too Especially vs Life the "Master of speedlings". Maybe Lilbow didn't watch replay from Life, and didn't know his playstyle
On November 04 2015 17:48 papaz wrote: Impressive that this Lil guy made it all the way to this tournament. Watching the series was quite painful though because he was no where in the same league as his opponent. But sometimes watching Goliath stomp David can also be fun.
It would've been even better if he brought his slingshot
Edit> Hm, I just realized that Lilbow had no forge therefore the only playable option was to go 3 gate expand.
Yep. I am Top Plat Terran and Mid Gold Zerg. I play Toss only vs IA, but I know well SC2 and the lack of forge shocked me too Especially vs Life the "Master of speedlings". Maybe Lilbow didn't watch replay from Life, and didn't know his playstyle
It is no surprise, that's how 6 pool works. But I thought he placed the forge in the main. i don't know why.
Wow that thread is still going on ? Can't we just say "Lilbow had a questionable and unprofessional attitude and should really have shut his twitter/facebook down, people who want to dislike him because of that are free to do so, people who think this is not really serious are free to do so" and move on ?
This is a big deal for many folks because Lilbow was our Foreign Hope. He left WCS S3 a Champion with a Champion's mentality. I talked to Dayshi a lot about Lilbow at Gfinity, and he said that Lilbow believed he could win Blizzcon and that he was gunning for a very high finish. What the fuck happened? That was on September 24th/25th. The WCS brackets were released October 6th. Did Lilbow see his opponent and think "Well, shit, never mind. I'll just go play Legacy." That's not how a champion approaches competition and that's not how a professional shows respect for his fans or his sport.
The mentality is definitely ass backwards to me as well. You will likely only get once chance to appear on a stage the Blizzcon in your life, if you're not top class Korean player, to throw that out the window for a game that is not even out of beta yet is short sighted. Making more excuses afterwards and insulting people who were cheering you on is childish, and not a helpful attitude for any competitive environment where focusing on the challenge in front of you is the only way to win.
On November 04 2015 04:52 Sadiv wrote: I must say that I've been playing and watching SC for over 15 years and I don't remember a series that was so fucking painful to watch. This french kid got so manhandled I can't even uderstand how he was allowed to play in such a big tournament. I saw diamond players defending better than he did.
That's a fact. So, here we have a interesting question that I saw already in this topic. Is Life's cheese the same than a diamond player can do it on ladder ? Is it defendable or not. Lilbow tried to defend cheese whithout play at 100% of his capacities, or he wasn't able to defend it at all ?
I think he began the serie as he lost it already. As I said before, I don't blame him to did'nt practice HOTS before the event, he has his reasons, but I would have liked to see him to tickle Life a little bit more.
The problem probably is that Lilbow doesn't meet this strategy too often so he doesn't know the proper response and he was playing LotV where is no 6 pool. IIRC he went 1 gate expand after he defended the 6 pool. He didn't scout Life therefore he didn't know if there's an expansion(wasn't). He saw many slow lings(too many vs 3 zealots without a choke). Taking natural is a big nono. Probably the best option if you want to go risky natural is to go a pylon near ramp, cannon touching your nexus and the nexus itself. This way you can protect you cannon and nexus with fewer units. Usually you go good old WoL 3 gate expand. He went "fuck it, I'm done" expansion... I was really shocked as a diamond Protoss player
Edit> Hm, I just realized that Lilbow had no forge therefore the only playable option was to go 3 gate expand.
he did standard gateway scout timing and saw the lings at the same time any pro player doing any normal build would ever see them... no one 9 scouts at pro level, he had plenty of time to react. the problem was he went for gate expand at the natural wall, which meant he had to try to build the forge IN the wall just so he could get cannons in his mineral line. it was greedy.
as for the "he didn't know how to defend it" argument, lol. the way you make it to masters, GM, pro level is exactly by knowing how to response to any weird build you can think of, otherwise you will die in diamond league to people who do the same strange cheese every single game and know how to execute it perfectly. if he doesn't know how to defend a 6 pool he doesn't belong in the booth
On November 04 2015 23:25 [PkF] Wire wrote: Wow that thread is still going on ? Can't we just say "Lilbow had a questionable and unprofessional attitude and should really have shut his twitter/facebook down, people who want to dislike him because of that are free to do so, people who think this is not really serious are free to do so" and move on ?
On November 04 2015 04:52 Sadiv wrote: I must say that I've been playing and watching SC for over 15 years and I don't remember a series that was so fucking painful to watch. This french kid got so manhandled I can't even uderstand how he was allowed to play in such a big tournament. I saw diamond players defending better than he did.
That's a fact. So, here we have a interesting question that I saw already in this topic. Is Life's cheese the same than a diamond player can do it on ladder ? Is it defendable or not. Lilbow tried to defend cheese whithout play at 100% of his capacities, or he wasn't able to defend it at all ?
I think he began the serie as he lost it already. As I said before, I don't blame him to did'nt practice HOTS before the event, he has his reasons, but I would have liked to see him to tickle Life a little bit more.
The problem probably is that Lilbow doesn't meet this strategy too often so he doesn't know the proper response and he was playing LotV where is no 6 pool. IIRC he went 1 gate expand after he defended the 6 pool. He didn't scout Life therefore he didn't know if there's an expansion(wasn't). He saw many slow lings(too many vs 3 zealots without a choke). Taking natural is a big nono. Probably the best option if you want to go risky natural is to go a pylon near ramp, cannon touching your nexus and the nexus itself. This way you can protect you cannon and nexus with fewer units. Usually you go good old WoL 3 gate expand. He went "fuck it, I'm done" expansion... I was really shocked as a diamond Protoss player
Edit> Hm, I just realized that Lilbow had no forge therefore the only playable option was to go 3 gate expand.
he did standard gateway scout timing and saw the lings at the same time any pro player doing any normal build would ever see them... no one 9 scouts at pro level, he had plenty of time to react. the problem was he went for gate expand at the natural wall, which meant he had to try to build the forge IN the wall just so he could get cannons in his mineral line. it was greedy.
as for the "he didn't know how to defend it" argument, lol. the way you make it to masters, GM, pro level is exactly by knowing how to response to any weird build you can think of, otherwise you will die in diamond league to people who do the same strange cheese every single game and know how to execute it perfectly. if he doesn't know how to defend a 6 pool he doesn't belong in the booth
He went for a gate expand after he "defended" 6 pool. Without any scouting. That's the wrong thing I am discussing. You cannot do that. The protecting ball(MSC) doesn't help you, you need units. 2 gate expand after you defended the 1st wave is considered greedy if you don't know whether the Zerg is droning & expanding or making lings.
I didn't even know that Lilbow guy really as I don't follow the foreign scene at all. After visiting his Facebook page though I feel pure disgust about his reaction to this whole topic. Really a little boy which should have never been a name on a global stage. As I'm sure that he will get attacked from all sides that is maybe the last time he entered a big stage as it probably has a huge impact on his mentality and self-confidence. I would have liked to see someone there who actually gives a fuck.
I'm more a lurker on this forum but I'm watching SC2 and cheering for players since the second GSL season. I saw Jinro fighting there, Naniwa competing with the best, Stephano storming the scene, hype around Idra, etc. All those memories and if you like those guys or not it was interesting to see them face the korean pros. Miss those old times.
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
On November 05 2015 01:40 Cazimirbzh wrote: so i hope we all agree that once again blizzard and DK are to blame right ?
Of course we do! Goes without saying
To be fair, Lilbow was put in a very awkward position with Blizzard launching LotV during Blizzcon. And I also want to point out that since Robert Ohlen left (!), Dreamhack decided to make things even worse by organizing a LotV tourney so short after!
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
On November 04 2015 23:25 [PkF] Wire wrote: Wow that thread is still going on ? Can't we just say "Lilbow had a questionable and unprofessional attitude and should really have shut his twitter/facebook down, people who want to dislike him because of that are free to do so, people who think this is not really serious are free to do so" and move on ?
Because of the gap between Ro16 and Ro8, we have nothing else to talk about, even though every possible argument was already argued and counter-argued within the first 3 hours. Thanks, Blizzard!
On November 03 2015 01:15 NonY wrote: I was surprised because Lilbow struck me as a player who entered tournaments with some plans and specific builds in mind. The mechanics between LotV and HotS are not that different. As long as he's playing a lot of one or the other and has some good builds to bring to the match, builds which he already knows or can tweak a little bit without needing a live opponent, he should do pretty well. He wouldn't have to put in that much effort to pick the builds and he'd only have to go through each one a few times vs AI the day before to freshen up on them. It wouldn't be ideal because it'd be unlikely that he innovates and without many hours of practice against a worthy opponent he couldn't hammer out all the details, but still I think he'd get 90% of the way with minimal effort and have a better showing than what he did. Maybe I'm misjudging the whole situation and misjudging him but I think he has the talent and already attained enough skill to do as I've said and the best explanation for when the results prove otherwise is that he gave up before he started.
edit: I'm guessing that it didn't occur to him that a little bit of effort could have carried him 90% of the way and preserved his dignity and given him a shot at actually advancing a round. But to comment on the gist of the OP: It is a bit disappointing that our best players don't see something like this Blizzcon finals, which is the most important tournament in SC2 and is the last HotS tournament ever and the last chance to show all the knowledge and skill you have in HotS, that they don't see it as a challenge and the very reason they got into progaming in the first place. There are several players that have a decent shot at beating top Koreans, and they do it in tournaments here and there, but it's only at a tournament like at Blizzcon where foreigners can make history by advancing a few rounds. Pretty hard to imagine passing that opportunity up out of fear that the off-season won't be enough time to prep for LotV. And if his performance declines in LotV anyway, he's gonna get eaten up by the community.
THIS ^^ NonY you are spot on bro! I hope to see you play some LoTV and get some good results
Don't worry guys he'll be at next blizzcon. He just got cheesed out as hell . It has nothing to do with "skill". Come on we all know that if the game had advanced to midgame life would have had many problems to counter Lilbow, even if it's one of the best Zerg in the world. Look at Hydra winning over dream who is considered as probably top 3 terran in the world.
Is it the fault of Lilbow if 0 foreign zerg had ever think about these strategy during the whole year ? I just admire life's intelligence on this one but it has nothing to do with the skill but the brain. GG champion.
On November 05 2015 01:40 Cazimirbzh wrote: so i hope we all agree that once again blizzard and DK are to blame right ?
Of course we do! Goes without saying
To be fair, Lilbow was put in a very awkward position with Blizzard launching LotV during Blizzcon. And I also want to point out that since Robert Ohlen left (!), Dreamhack decided to make things even worse by organizing a LotV tourney so short after!
Next week end Blizzcon, hots And the week end after Sandisk II, lotv with Zest, Bomber, Solar, PartinG, TY, Rogue, ByuN and 2 still missing(flash???!!???)
On November 05 2015 01:40 Cazimirbzh wrote: so i hope we all agree that once again blizzard and DK are to blame right ?
Of course we do! Goes without saying
To be fair, Lilbow was put in a very awkward position with Blizzard launching LotV during Blizzcon. And I also want to point out that since Robert Ohlen left (!), Dreamhack decided to make things even worse by organizing a LotV tourney so short after!
Next week end Blizzcon, hots And the week end after Sandisk II, lotv with Zest, Bomber, Solar, PartinG, TY, Rogue, ByuN and 2 still missing(flash???!!???)
On November 05 2015 02:35 Hughgrant wrote: Come on we all know that if the game had advanced to midgame life would have had many problems to counter Lilbow, even if it's one of the best Zerg in the world.
no, we do not all know that. in fact you are making it up and you are wrong and/or trolling, lol
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
aside from that, both swimmer do know before that they suck at swimming. Bahrain guy was a realist and the guinean guy went with passion. aside from that again, there is a reason why black people (like most guinean) sucks hard at swimming but very good at sprints.+ Show Spoiler +
black people do have ~1,5% greater abdominal muscles by default
"by default" is not the term you were looking for in your spoiler.
It's not a great analogy in any case, Lilbow clearly thinks of himself as the Guinean and is dumbfounded that he didn't bring the house down just by showing up.
On November 05 2015 04:22 Dingodile wrote: aside from that, both swimmer do know before that they suck at swimming. Bahrain guy was a realist and the guinean guy went with passion. aside from that again, there is a reason why black people (like most guinean) sucks hard at swimming but very good at sprints.+ Show Spoiler +
black people do have ~1,5% greater abdominal muscles by default
Sociological reason are way more relevant that your genetical explanation which is most probably BS anyway. And maybe you should know that Mehdi Metella world champion in 4x100 and french recordman on 100m (both freestyle and butterfly) is black (his sister got medals both in world championships and olympics btw)
On November 05 2015 04:22 Dingodile wrote: aside from that, both swimmer do know before that they suck at swimming. Bahrain guy was a realist and the guinean guy went with passion. aside from that again, there is a reason why black people (like most guinean) sucks hard at swimming but very good at sprints.+ Show Spoiler +
black people do have ~1,5% greater abdominal muscles by default
Sociological reason are way more relevant that your genetical explanation which is most probably BS anyway. And maybe you should know that Mehdi Metella world champion in 4x100 and french recordman on 100m (both freestyle and butterfly) is black (his sister got medals both in world championships and olympics btw)
I looked on wiki, no details about his ancestry. Maybe Mehdy is really a true french boy then his body belongs to white people. If you watch football then you know that black people are superior in some areas to white people, namely acceleration, duells, stamina and speed. Raheem Sterling (jamaica), Yaya Toure, Michael Essien etc or former players like Patrick Vieira and Makelele (both are from Senegal and played for France).
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
There's even more to that story than you just described. And also relevant to the Lilbow discussion
The guy's name was Eric Moussambani. He'd been a swimmer only training in lakes for 9 months. And he didn't even have to swim had he chosen not to, the other two swimmers in his heat were disqualified for false starts so he won by default, but he came out there to swim. So he did, and the crowd fell in love with him for him actually trying
The relevance to Lilbow is this, Eric only got into the Olympic event via a Wildcard , while more talented and deserving swimmers than him stayed at home because they didn't come top 2 in their much tougher selection trials or didn't swim to the qualifying mark the major nations faced and weren't handed a spot on a silver platter by the organisers. And it started a whole controversy about "building the global scene" versus "Having the best people at the biggest event"
Just like a certain French SC2 player got handed a spot at the biggest tournment of the year thanks to a region locked event, while more talented players than him stayed at home because they didn't gain enough points from their much tougher tournaments and they weren't handed a spot on a silver platter by the organisers. Which started a whole debate about "building the global scene" versus "Having the best people at the biggest event".
The difference between the two of course is Moussambani TRIED, he knew he wasn't up to the standard of the more talented swimmers, he wasn't even in the same league as the worse guy but he still went out there and gave it his best, and as such when you mention his name in Sydney, or mention "Eric the Eel" everyone remembers that.
Lilbow basically did what every person who criticized the system wanted Eric to do after the two false starts, left the stage as fast as he could. Then he went on social media and basically said that as well as "LOL thank you for free money". And the worst thing about it is if he performs well at Dreamhack some people will think that he was justified.
On November 05 2015 04:22 Dingodile wrote: aside from that, both swimmer do know before that they suck at swimming. Bahrain guy was a realist and the guinean guy went with passion. aside from that again, there is a reason why black people (like most guinean) sucks hard at swimming but very good at sprints.+ Show Spoiler +
black people do have ~1,5% greater abdominal muscles by default
People from western Africa are genetically more likely to have a greater than average quantity of white muscle fibers. White muscle fibers are specialized in providing great but short bursts of energy. That is one of the reasons you see a lot of "black people" originating from this region participate in sprinting contests. This does not mean people from other regions (Europe, Eastern Africa, Asia) aren't able to be born with a lot of these fibers as well but it's just a bit more likely in before mentioned region because the gene(s) causing this are more prevalent there. As far as I know there aren't many features certain peoples "default" to beside some small differences in appearance.
Honest to goodness, I think it just shows how boring HOTS is right now. Are there really still HOTS tournaments? With all the LOTV that has been going HOTS already feels like a distant memory (I am saying this to make a point, I've read some of the awesome content that the TL Writers have put out for the players this year).
I think there's a bit of a problem when people throw all their "hopes and dreams" onto one player who is under no circumstances required nor accountable to live up to what is, frankly, an impossible desire (foreign hope, yeah right)!
And finally, it says a lot about the state of the game when players are just WAITING to move on to LOTV. I think this highlights fault with Blizzard's tournament structure more than anything else. There should not be a HOTS major series happening when the beta for LOTV is out and rolling. That's the biggest travesty of all.
This would not be a problem if we were given an extended off season that ended a few weeks after LOTV was released. If this had happened no pro would have had to commit to HOTS when they did not want to, and HOTS could just disappear naturally as everyone hopped on to the LOTV train, rather than die the long, unnatural death that it is now.
The only reason HOTS is alive at all is because of this final RO16, and frankly it just feels like everyone involved is just waiting for it to end.
On November 05 2015 02:35 Hughgrant wrote: Don't worry guys he'll be at next blizzcon. He just got cheesed out as hell . It has nothing to do with "skill". Come on we all know that if the game had advanced to midgame life would have had many problems to counter Lilbow, even if it's one of the best Zerg in the world.
What?
I'm trying to see the mental gymnastics you must have gone through to reach that conclusion, but I'm failing spectacularly. Are you serious?
On November 05 2015 02:35 Hughgrant wrote: Don't worry guys he'll be at next blizzcon. He just got cheesed out as hell . It has nothing to do with "skill". Come on we all know that if the game had advanced to midgame life would have had many problems to counter Lilbow, even if it's one of the best Zerg in the world.
What?
I'm trying to see the mental gymnastics you must have gone through to reach that conclusion, but I'm failing spectacularly. Are you serious?
On November 05 2015 04:22 Dingodile wrote: aside from that, both swimmer do know before that they suck at swimming. Bahrain guy was a realist and the guinean guy went with passion. aside from that again, there is a reason why black people (like most guinean) sucks hard at swimming but very good at sprints.+ Show Spoiler +
black people do have ~1,5% greater abdominal muscles by default
Sociological reason are way more relevant that your genetical explanation which is most probably BS anyway. And maybe you should know that Mehdi Metella world champion in 4x100 and french recordman on 100m (both freestyle and butterfly) is black (his sister got medals both in world championships and olympics btw)
Bernard holds the record in 100m freestyle, not Metella. Metella is the French record holder in 100 fly (51.1 or 51.2) but has never - to my knowledge - grazed the world record in freestyle, which Bernard has held on four separate occasions. I think the question of genetic vs sociological in the context is pretty ridiculous, particularly as it relates to Starcraft, but still.
Edit: but I shouldn't derail this thread, and perhaps it has run its course already
On November 05 2015 02:35 Hughgrant wrote: Don't worry guys he'll be at next blizzcon. He just got cheesed out as hell . It has nothing to do with "skill". Come on we all know that if the game had advanced to midgame life would have had many problems to counter Lilbow, even if it's one of the best Zerg in the world.
What?
I'm trying to see the mental gymnastics you must have gone through to reach that conclusion, but I'm failing spectacularly. Are you serious?
You know what they say: love is blind.
Did you just quote the Room? So Lilbow= Tommy Wiseau?
On November 05 2015 02:35 Hughgrant wrote: Don't worry guys he'll be at next blizzcon. He just got cheesed out as hell . It has nothing to do with "skill". Come on we all know that if the game had advanced to midgame life would have had many problems to counter Lilbow, even if it's one of the best Zerg in the world.
What?
I'm trying to see the mental gymnastics you must have gone through to reach that conclusion, but I'm failing spectacularly. Are you serious?
You know what they say: love is blind.
Did you just quote the Room? So Lilbow= Tommy Wiseau?
On November 05 2015 02:35 Hughgrant wrote: Don't worry guys he'll be at next blizzcon. He just got cheesed out as hell . It has nothing to do with "skill". Come on we all know that if the game had advanced to midgame life would have had many problems to counter Lilbow, even if it's one of the best Zerg in the world.
What?
I'm trying to see the mental gymnastics you must have gone through to reach that conclusion, but I'm failing spectacularly. Are you serious?
You know what they say: love is blind.
Did you just quote the Room? So Lilbow= Tommy Wiseau?
Sorry to disappoint, but that's a common English expression. A quick google search tells me the first time it was used was by Chaucer =O.
Why do people care so much? He earned the spot; he spent the time and opportunity cost to get to play in the finals. He is a 20 year old with different motivations. It is his own business. If people have this much vested interest in drawing inspiration from a person playing video games, I think they might need to re-evaluate their role models. But that is my own opinion. I get that it is a "let down" but don't make it personal...
On November 05 2015 09:54 SirPinky wrote: Why do people care so much? He earned the spot; he spent the time and opportunity cost to get to play in the finals. He is a 20 year old with different motivations. It is his own business. If people have this much vested interest in drawing inspiration from a person playing video games, I think they might need to re-evaluate their role models. But that is my own opinion. I get that it is a "let down" but don't make it personal...
Ok, last post in this thread for me:
Literally the only reason progamers exist as a thing is that there are "people with vested interest in drawing inspiration from a person playing video games." Without them there would be no sponsors, no streams, no ad revenue, no competitions, no prize money, no career. When you are a progamer, every penny of the money you receive ultimately comes from the pockets of fans of you and the sport. All sponsorship, all ad revenue, everything - it's contingent upon on those investments being recouped from the fans.
Selfishly disregarding the very people who make your lifestyle possible is not, by any stretch, 'your own business'. You are quite simply not doing the thing that you are being paid to do.
On November 05 2015 02:35 Hughgrant wrote: Don't worry guys he'll be at next blizzcon. He just got cheesed out as hell . It has nothing to do with "skill". Come on we all know that if the game had advanced to midgame life would have had many problems to counter Lilbow, even if it's one of the best Zerg in the world.
What?
I'm trying to see the mental gymnastics you must have gone through to reach that conclusion, but I'm failing spectacularly. Are you serious?
You know what they say: love is blind.
Did you just quote the Room? So Lilbow= Tommy Wiseau?
On November 05 2015 09:54 SirPinky wrote: Why do people care so much? He earned the spot; he spent the time and opportunity cost to get to play in the finals. He is a 20 year old with different motivations. It is his own business. If people have this much vested interest in drawing inspiration from a person playing video games, I think they might need to re-evaluate their role models. But that is my own opinion. I get that it is a "let down" but don't make it personal...
Ok, last post in this thread for me:
Literally the only reason progamers exist as a thing is that there are "people with vested interest in drawing inspiration from a person playing video games." Without them there would be no sponsors, no streams, no ad revenue, no competitions, no prize money, no career. When you are a progamer, every penny of the money you receive ultimately comes from the pockets of fans of you and the sport. All sponsorship, all ad revenue, everything - it's contingent upon on those investments being recouped from the fans.
Selfishly disregarding the very people who make your lifestyle possible is not, by any stretch, 'your own business'. You are quite simply not doing the thing that you are being paid to do.
And without those people from which "people with vested interest in draw inspiration from a person playing video games," there would be no fans. It is true that as a pro gamer, the rules that you follow are essentially to respect those who give you that money and status by playing your hardest and not being a jerk.
However, I think that it starts with the players becoming good at a game. People do not want to watch people who are bad at a video game; they want to watch people do really cool things that most people can't do.
So yes, the money comes from the sponsors who recoup it from the fans, but the reason that there are fans in the first place is because of the progamers. It's a circle. The progamers inspire the fans who inspire the sponsors who then pay for the progamers, but without the pros, there are no fans (of watching it) and there are no sponsors.
Let's face it; we would not be fans of multiplayer Starcraft if there were no good players worth watching.
I am not going to read 33 pages, but I got a few comments on this:
1# He won his place and ticket there. 2# Who cares what reason he lost. Being angry that he didn't practice to your standards is not fair. 3# Id he really did not practice, and ended up lied about practicing you would not be as angry with him.
On November 05 2015 09:54 SirPinky wrote: Why do people care so much? He earned the spot; he spent the time and opportunity cost to get to play in the finals. He is a 20 year old with different motivations. It is his own business. If people have this much vested interest in drawing inspiration from a person playing video games, I think they might need to re-evaluate their role models. But that is my own opinion. I get that it is a "let down" but don't make it personal...
Ok, last post in this thread for me:
Literally the only reason progamers exist as a thing is that there are "people with vested interest in drawing inspiration from a person playing video games." Without them there would be no sponsors, no streams, no ad revenue, no competitions, no prize money, no career. When you are a progamer, every penny of the money you receive ultimately comes from the pockets of fans of you and the sport. All sponsorship, all ad revenue, everything - it's contingent upon on those investments being recouped from the fans.
Selfishly disregarding the very people who make your lifestyle possible is not, by any stretch, 'your own business'. You are quite simply not doing the thing that you are being paid to do.
And without those people from which "people with vested interest in draw inspiration from a person playing video games," there would be no fans. It is true that as a pro gamer, the rules that you follow are essentially to respect those who give you that money and status by playing your hardest and not being a jerk.
However, I think that it starts with the players becoming good at a game. People do not want to watch people who are bad at a video game; they want to watch people do really cool things that most people can't do.
So yes, the money comes from the sponsors who recoup it from the fans, but the reason that there are fans in the first place is because of the progamers. It's a circle. The progamers inspire the fans who inspire the sponsors who then pay for the progamers, but without the pros, there are no fans (of watching it) and there are no sponsors.
Let's face it; we would not be fans of multiplayer Starcraft if there were no good players worth watching.
Thanks for both of the replies:
Don't get me wrong, I like to watch streams and competitions like anyone else. But I could care less what these people do on their own time - practice or not. The main objective is to see entertaining games and perhaps new strategies (which no longer exists in HOTS since it's been "figured out"). But the word in my original quote "inspiration" is a strong word. This is a word assigned to a role model or something you aspire "to become". I see this as entertainment: No single progamer leaving the scene has caused massive sponsorships to drop or crippled the industry. There is always someone next in line to take his/her place. So, again, I don't get worked up about some 20 year old guy being apathetic about a gaming event. There are many more people ready to take his place.
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
Correct, he was better than Lilbow because he didn't quit before the event even started
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
There's even more to that story than you just described. And also relevant to the Lilbow discussion
The guy's name was Eric Moussambani. He'd been a swimmer only training in lakes for 9 months. And he didn't even have to swim had he chosen not to, the other two swimmers in his heat were disqualified for false starts so he won by default, but he came out there to swim. So he did, and the crowd fell in love with him for him actually trying
The relevance to Lilbow is this, Eric only got into the Olympic event via a Wildcard , while more talented and deserving swimmers than him stayed at home because they didn't come top 2 in their much tougher selection trials or didn't swim to the qualifying mark the major nations faced and weren't handed a spot on a silver platter by the organisers. And it started a whole controversy about "building the global scene" versus "Having the best people at the biggest event"
Just like a certain French SC2 player got handed a spot at the biggest tournment of the year thanks to a region locked event, while more talented players than him stayed at home because they didn't gain enough points from their much tougher tournaments and they weren't handed a spot on a silver platter by the organisers. Which started a whole debate about "building the global scene" versus "Having the best people at the biggest event".
The difference between the two of course is Moussambani TRIED, he knew he wasn't up to the standard of the more talented swimmers, he wasn't even in the same league as the worse guy but he still went out there and gave it his best, and as such when you mention his name in Sydney, or mention "Eric the Eel" everyone remembers that.
Lilbow basically did what every person who criticized the system wanted Eric to do after the two false starts, left the stage as fast as he could. Then he went on social media and basically said that as well as "LOL thank you for free money". And the worst thing about it is if he performs well at Dreamhack some people will think that he was justified.
Give me a fucking break.
This really sums it up for me. Respect for the game, respect for the fans, respect for the profession. We remember MVP not only cause he won the most championships, but he did it when his body was working against him. That's a true professional.
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
no there isnt to you maybe, but he is behaving like an asshat which is embarrassing to some people
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
no there isnt to you maybe, but he is behaving like an asshat which is embarrassing to some people
And that is his behavior, not his performance. See the analogy is used in a specific conversation. It aims to display that my idea - that "embarrassing games by a foreigner" and "foreigner community being embarrassed" are connected to each other - is wrong. It says, look, this guy produced an embarrassing performance and was applauded for it, therefore you're wrong. Well, no, because none of these guys did embarrassing performances, so there is no equivalency there.
I didn't even bring up that there is no comparison between the two communities in question, as there is no way in hell someone would say "I can't wait to see that guinean guy get raped!" before the competition began, which may be an even stronger counter-argument.
If you choose to be interested in more aspects of SC2 than the games, such as getting to know the personalities and thoughts of the players so that you can judge them according to whatever system of values you have, then you may want to reconsider how productive it is to tell people about it. If you get your jollies from patting each other on the back for all liking a guy for the same reasons, I guess that's fine because at least it's positive, even if it's not productive. But shitting on a guy because he made a different decision than you would, when he's not even in a situation where there's an obvious optimal path that he failed to follow, is not productive and it's not conducive to an enjoyable atmosphere. Analyze the situation, say what you would have done, say why, that's all fine. But at no point has anyone justified saying Lilbow lacks respect, has failed to fulfill his duty, etc, so I don't see why people are saying that shit. Maybe ask yourself if you've really proven it or if you're just projecting your own personal values and not some universal values.
All I could think about when I heard this was...it's fine he wants to get more experience at LotV. But one experience he's never going to get is practicing diligently for one of the best players of all time on the biggest stage of the year. Win or lose that is a learning moment that you need to get better at this game.
How many times has some hot upshot Korean gotten into a tourney only to get trounced by the older player who's been there many times before? The new player without the big huge tournament experience usually loses because just being there is a mind game in itself that they are not prepared for.
The fact that someone who is supposed to be so good at a strategy game can't understand this is mind boggling to me. It's as if some players think all that matters is how good they are at manipulating the game itself and forget that half the game psychological, which includes getting up for fucking Blizzcon. It doesn't matter how many hours of the next expansion you put in, if you don't make the most of your tourney experiences, you will be exploited when it matters most by someone who has.
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
no there isnt to you maybe, but he is behaving like an asshat which is embarrassing to some people
And that is his behavior, not his performance. See the analogy is used in a specific conversation. It aims to display that my idea - that "embarrassing games by a foreigner" and "foreigner community being embarrassed" are connected to each other - is wrong. It says, look, this guy produced an embarrassing performance and was applauded for it, therefore you're wrong. Well, no, because none of these guys did embarrassing performances, so there is no equivalency there.
I didn't even bring up that there is no comparison between the two communities in question, as there is no way in hell someone would say "I can't wait to see that guinean guy get raped!" before the competition began, which may be an even stronger counter-argument.
Like I said the difference between the two things is the Bahrainian swimmer and Eric Moussambani showed up and competed. Lilbow didn't even bother to try and then basically laughed about it.. That's why he's getting hate. The fact people still defend Lilbow's bullshit is why this community is fucked NOT the fact Lilbow is getting attacked over it
Whilst Lilbow may be out of his depth compared to the top Kespa players, that Eric guy is about on the same level as mediocre 50+ casual club swimmers where I am.
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
no there isnt to you maybe, but he is behaving like an asshat which is embarrassing to some people
And that is his behavior, not his performance. See the analogy is used in a specific conversation. It aims to display that my idea - that "embarrassing games by a foreigner" and "foreigner community being embarrassed" are connected to each other - is wrong. It says, look, this guy produced an embarrassing performance and was applauded for it, therefore you're wrong. Well, no, because none of these guys did embarrassing performances, so there is no equivalency there.
I didn't even bring up that there is no comparison between the two communities in question, as there is no way in hell someone would say "I can't wait to see that guinean guy get raped!" before the competition began, which may be an even stronger counter-argument.
Like I said the difference between the two things is the Bahrainian swimmer and Eric Moussambani showed up and competed. Lilbow didn't even bother to try and then basically laughed about it.. That's why he's getting hate. The fact people still defend Lilbow's bullshit is why this community is fucked NOT the fact Lilbow is getting attacked over it
First, thanks for telling me what I should think and what I should be angry about, I had trouble doing it by myself and needed an overmind like yours.
Second, let's say Lilbow says absolutely nothing and then loses exactly in the way he did: 1. The crowd gives a stand-up ovation chanting "Lilbow! Lilbow! Lilbow!". All of TL praise him for his achievement and casual watchers who just tuned in for Blizzcon look up to him as the hero of foreignlands. 2. He is criticized and mocked for his performance, people reflect on what the level of foreigners is if that's their best representant, questions are raised regarding whether he should be allowed at Blizzcon over more "deserving" players.
I can't wait to see how people will justify saying 1 :D
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
no there isnt to you maybe, but he is behaving like an asshat which is embarrassing to some people
And that is his behavior, not his performance. See the analogy is used in a specific conversation. It aims to display that my idea - that "embarrassing games by a foreigner" and "foreigner community being embarrassed" are connected to each other - is wrong. It says, look, this guy produced an embarrassing performance and was applauded for it, therefore you're wrong. Well, no, because none of these guys did embarrassing performances, so there is no equivalency there.
I didn't even bring up that there is no comparison between the two communities in question, as there is no way in hell someone would say "I can't wait to see that guinean guy get raped!" before the competition began, which may be an even stronger counter-argument.
Like I said the difference between the two things is the Bahrainian swimmer and Eric Moussambani showed up and competed. Lilbow didn't even bother to try and then basically laughed about it.. That's why he's getting hate. The fact people still defend Lilbow's bullshit is why this community is fucked NOT the fact Lilbow is getting attacked over it
First, thanks for telling me what I should think and what I should be angry about, I had trouble doing it by myself and needed an overmind like yours.
Second, let's say Lilbow says absolutely nothing and then loses exactly in the way he did: 1. The crowds gives a stand-up ovation chanting "Lilbow! Lilbow! Lilbow!". All of TL praise him for his achievement and casual watchers who just tuned in for Blizzcon look up to him as the hero of foreignlands. 2. He is criticized and mocked for his performance, people reflect on what the level of foreigners is if that's their best representant, questions are raised regarding whether he should be allowed at Blizzcon over more "deserving" players.
I can't wait to see how people will justify saying 1 :D
3. Life is praised as a strategic genius in the same vein as Boxer for cheesing three times in a row.
On November 05 2015 13:30 NonY wrote: If you choose to be interested in more aspects of SC2 than the games, such as getting to know the personalities and thoughts of the players so that you can judge them according to whatever system of values you have, then you may want to reconsider how productive it is to tell people about it. If you get your jollies from patting each other on the back for all liking a guy for the same reasons, I guess that's fine because at least it's positive, even if it's not productive. But shitting on a guy because he made a different decision than you would, when he's not even in a situation where there's an obvious optimal path that he failed to follow, is not productive and it's not conducive to an enjoyable atmosphere. Analyze the situation, say what you would have done, say why, that's all fine. But at no point has anyone justified saying Lilbow lacks respect, has failed to fulfill his duty, etc, so I don't see why people are saying that shit. Maybe ask yourself if you've really proven it or if you're just projecting your own personal values and not some universal values.
there is an obvious "optimal" path. spoilers: silence
On November 05 2015 13:30 NonY wrote: If you choose to be interested in more aspects of SC2 than the games, such as getting to know the personalities and thoughts of the players so that you can judge them according to whatever system of values you have, then you may want to reconsider how productive it is to tell people about it. If you get your jollies from patting each other on the back for all liking a guy for the same reasons, I guess that's fine because at least it's positive, even if it's not productive. But shitting on a guy because he made a different decision than you would, when he's not even in a situation where there's an obvious optimal path that he failed to follow, is not productive and it's not conducive to an enjoyable atmosphere. Analyze the situation, say what you would have done, say why, that's all fine. But at no point has anyone justified saying Lilbow lacks respect, has failed to fulfill his duty, etc, so I don't see why people are saying that shit. Maybe ask yourself if you've really proven it or if you're just projecting your own personal values and not some universal values.
there is an obvious "optimal" path. spoilers: silence
Or if Lilbow still wanted to vent his frustration, and a less optimal path : rage about being cheesed Would have generated less shitstorm than this PR-screw up.
On November 05 2015 13:30 NonY wrote: If you choose to be interested in more aspects of SC2 than the games, such as getting to know the personalities and thoughts of the players so that you can judge them according to whatever system of values you have, then you may want to reconsider how productive it is to tell people about it. If you get your jollies from patting each other on the back for all liking a guy for the same reasons, I guess that's fine because at least it's positive, even if it's not productive. But shitting on a guy because he made a different decision than you would, when he's not even in a situation where there's an obvious optimal path that he failed to follow, is not productive and it's not conducive to an enjoyable atmosphere. Analyze the situation, say what you would have done, say why, that's all fine. But at no point has anyone justified saying Lilbow lacks respect, has failed to fulfill his duty, etc, so I don't see why people are saying that shit. Maybe ask yourself if you've really proven it or if you're just projecting your own personal values and not some universal values.
You seem to be saying that everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, and in fact no one is allowed to question that opinion because the opinion was legitimate because it was how they felt at the time . Of course a person can question and criticise an opinion, that's how we learn.
On November 03 2015 07:11 Specialist wrote: progamer is a joke to begin with gaming should never be considered more than a hobby he's a lazy slob who tries to get by with life by playing games most normal people see gaming as a hobby, to think you are a professional at something so stupid is absurd
lilbow can do whatever he wants at something that has 0 meaningful impact in the world
This has to get an award boyzz ~~~
That's the most stupid thing I've ever read on the Internet during my entire life. (and that's saying smthg actually)
On November 05 2015 13:30 NonY wrote: If you choose to be interested in more aspects of SC2 than the games, such as getting to know the personalities and thoughts of the players so that you can judge them according to whatever system of values you have, then you may want to reconsider how productive it is to tell people about it. If you get your jollies from patting each other on the back for all liking a guy for the same reasons, I guess that's fine because at least it's positive, even if it's not productive. But shitting on a guy because he made a different decision than you would, when he's not even in a situation where there's an obvious optimal path that he failed to follow, is not productive and it's not conducive to an enjoyable atmosphere. Analyze the situation, say what you would have done, say why, that's all fine. But at no point has anyone justified saying Lilbow lacks respect, has failed to fulfill his duty, etc, so I don't see why people are saying that shit. Maybe ask yourself if you've really proven it or if you're just projecting your own personal values and not some universal values.
I don't get it. who has the authority to say we aren't justified to say what we meant?
some sort of logic that goes if we don't know that person well enough, we cannot make judgement of his actions and his reasoning provided by him himself?
On November 05 2015 11:53 Hotshot wrote: I am not going to read 33 pages, but I got a few comments on this:
1# He won his place and ticket there. 2# Who cares what reason he lost. Being angry that he didn't practice to your standards is not fair. 3# Id he really did not practice, and ended up lied about practicing you would not be as angry with him.
On November 05 2015 11:53 Hotshot wrote: I am not going to read 33 pages, but I got a few comments on this:
1# He won his place and ticket there. 2# Who cares what reason he lost. Being angry that he didn't practice to your standards is not fair. 3# Id he really did not practice, and ended up lied about practicing you would not be as angry with him.
IMHO preparing hard against Life wasn't worth a try. Life won last year and for the ones who don't remember well, few were the ones trusting in him at blizzcon last year. Add the fact he became a real monster in ZvP match up.
The bilan is : Lilbow sacrified a 20% chance to go to blizzcon, get extra 2500$ and the chance to encounter INnoVation.
As a french people i'm not upset at all. I knew it was going to be this way and that was the right decision. And keep in mind that skipping the LOTV beta would have stomp any chance for him to get a descent rank in WCS next year. Lilbow is the kind who needs to train hard to take it over, and he decided to not kill his career at the begin of LOTV. I find it wise.
The scenario where he trains hard is basically that : he loose 2-3 against Life, then the game switch to LOTV, he is not even ready and loose the 3 firsts underdogs and you don't see him after RO8 in the firsts go4 because he is 3 months late practicing LOTV.
oh and he won a go4 2 weeks ago beating Hydra 2-0 the guy who beat Dream 3-2 , so don't mind if i call fools the one who think Lilbow had a bad plan.
I think if one loses 0-3, it is okay when you played versus Life. Even for a pro, this is nothing to be really ashamed of.
The attitude however to barely practice Hots appalled me. Since it seems to be a casual statement, I would not put too much weight in it, but I felt not been taken seriously by that statement.
On November 05 2015 11:53 Hotshot wrote: I am not going to read 33 pages, but I got a few comments on this:
1# He won his place and ticket there. 2# Who cares what reason he lost. Being angry that he didn't practice to your standards is not fair. 3# Id he really did not practice, and ended up lied about practicing you would not be as angry with him.
Read the thread, that's not why people are angry.
give a tl;dr to lazy people seeker plz
You mean for the people who have better things to do than bath in the community's rage and uninformed opinions on twitter bullshit?
On November 05 2015 11:53 Hotshot wrote: I am not going to read 33 pages, but I got a few comments on this:
1# He won his place and ticket there. 2# Who cares what reason he lost. Being angry that he didn't practice to your standards is not fair. 3# Id he really did not practice, and ended up lied about practicing you would not be as angry with him.
Read the thread, that's not why people are angry.
give a tl;dr to lazy people seeker plz
You mean for the people who have better things to do than bath in the community's rage and uninformed opinions on twitter bullshit?
Ye, sign me up for the tl;dr as well
TL;DR Lilbow could not handle what Life threw at him.
On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say.
That's not true, though.
A few years back a guy from Equatorial Guinea entered the Olympic 100m Freestyle swimming. He had never in his life seen a 50m pool, and had trained in a lake. He took over twice as long to complete the distance as anyone else, and when he finished he brought the fucking house down. He had the guts to try his best in front of thousands of spectators, knowing that he was going to finish dead last.
Now imagine for a moment the guy from Bahrain who finished second to last - still almost a minute quicker - had said "Eh; I didn't bother training because I had more important things going on."
Which of those guys would look like an asshat? Which country would feel embarrassed by the person who represented them? Who would be remembered as insulting the spirit of the Olympics, and who as exemplifying it?
In your example, I don't see anything embarrassing about the performance from the guinean guy, so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.
........
Lilbow was the Bahrain guy... not guinean guy... Lilbow was supposed to behave like the guinean
...There's nothing embarrassing about the Bahrain guy's performance either...
no there isnt to you maybe, but he is behaving like an asshat which is embarrassing to some people
And that is his behavior, not his performance. See the analogy is used in a specific conversation. It aims to display that my idea - that "embarrassing games by a foreigner" and "foreigner community being embarrassed" are connected to each other - is wrong. It says, look, this guy produced an embarrassing performance and was applauded for it, therefore you're wrong. Well, no, because none of these guys did embarrassing performances, so there is no equivalency there.
I didn't even bring up that there is no comparison between the two communities in question, as there is no way in hell someone would say "I can't wait to see that guinean guy get raped!" before the competition began, which may be an even stronger counter-argument.
Like I said the difference between the two things is the Bahrainian swimmer and Eric Moussambani showed up and competed. Lilbow didn't even bother to try and then basically laughed about it.. That's why he's getting hate. The fact people still defend Lilbow's bullshit is why this community is fucked NOT the fact Lilbow is getting attacked over it
First, thanks for telling me what I should think and what I should be angry about, I had trouble doing it by myself and needed an overmind like yours.
Second, let's say Lilbow says absolutely nothing and then loses exactly in the way he did: 1. The crowd gives a stand-up ovation chanting "Lilbow! Lilbow! Lilbow!". All of TL praise him for his achievement and casual watchers who just tuned in for Blizzcon look up to him as the hero of foreignlands. 2. He is criticized and mocked for his performance, people reflect on what the level of foreigners is if that's their best representant, questions are raised regarding whether he should be allowed at Blizzcon over more "deserving" players.
I can't wait to see how people will justify saying 1 :D
If anyone had gone with #1 in your scenario they'd be as stupid as the people defending him now.
As for your sarcasm, I stand by my statement. The people defending Lilbow's bullshit are the example of what's wrong with this community, not the people scorning him.
On November 05 2015 11:53 Hotshot wrote: I am not going to read 33 pages, but I got a few comments on this:
1# He won his place and ticket there. 2# Who cares what reason he lost. Being angry that he didn't practice to your standards is not fair. 3# Id he really did not practice, and ended up lied about practicing you would not be as angry with him.
Read the thread, that's not why people are angry.
give a tl;dr to lazy people seeker plz
You mean for the people who have better things to do than bath in the community's rage and uninformed opinions on twitter bullshit?
Ye, sign me up for the tl;dr as well
TL;DR Lilbow could not handle what Life threw at him.
are you implying that lilbow is the inferior player in direct comparison to Life?
On November 06 2015 01:11 Penev wrote: All these wrong opinions in this thread. Good thing I, at least, am in possession of the right one.
There
Now let's watch some more Bob
I declare Penev as the official "Lilbow and his Approach to WCS Finals 2015" Thread Champion 2015 for holding the correct opinion ! Thanks to all the others participants though, the competition was fierce.
On November 05 2015 23:13 Erugua wrote: IMHO preparing hard against Life wasn't worth a try. Life won last year and for the ones who don't remember well, few were the ones trusting in him at blizzcon last year. Add the fact he became a real monster in ZvP match up.
The bilan is : Lilbow sacrified a 20% chance to go to blizzcon, get extra 2500$ and the chance to encounter INnoVation.
As a french people i'm not upset at all. I knew it was going to be this way and that was the right decision. And keep in mind that skipping the LOTV beta would have stomp any chance for him to get a descent rank in WCS next year. Lilbow is the kind who needs to train hard to take it over, and he decided to not kill his career at the begin of LOTV. I find it wise.
The scenario where he trains hard is basically that : he loose 2-3 against Life, then the game switch to LOTV, he is not even ready and loose the 3 firsts underdogs and you don't see him after RO8 in the firsts go4 because he is 3 months late practicing LOTV.
oh and he won a go4 2 weeks ago beating Hydra 2-0 the guy who beat Dream 3-2 , so don't mind if i call fools the one who think Lilbow had a bad plan.
Well that's not why people were so angry they created 30+ pages
They are angry because he showed low PR skills and stated "I give no fuck about Blizzcon" attitude
Almost no one expected Lilbow to win that match. Had he stated some PR bullshit like "Life is life, I did everything I could even though I had some troubles with finding training partners" no one would be mad. IMO.
On November 06 2015 01:11 Penev wrote: All these wrong opinions in this thread. Good thing I, at least, am in possession of the right one.
There
Now let's watch some more Bob
I declare Penev as the official "Lilbow and his Approach to WCS Finals 2015" Thread Champion 2015 for holding the correct opinion ! Thanks to all the others participants though, the competition was fierce.
On November 05 2015 11:53 Hotshot wrote: I am not going to read 33 pages, but I got a few comments on this:
1# He won his place and ticket there. 2# Who cares what reason he lost. Being angry that he didn't practice to your standards is not fair. 3# Id he really did not practice, and ended up lied about practicing you would not be as angry with him.
Read the thread, that's not why people are angry.
I did read more comments after my post, and my comments stand.
Seems you guys are trying to bully this guy because you are not happy about his attitude. Because he does not think the way you want him to think he is in the wrong.
On November 05 2015 11:53 Hotshot wrote: I am not going to read 33 pages, but I got a few comments on this:
1# He won his place and ticket there. 2# Who cares what reason he lost. Being angry that he didn't practice to your standards is not fair. 3# Id he really did not practice, and ended up lied about practicing you would not be as angry with him.
Read the thread, that's not why people are angry.
give a tl;dr to lazy people seeker plz
You mean for the people who have better things to do than bath in the community's rage and uninformed opinions on twitter bullshit?
Ye, sign me up for the tl;dr as well
TL;DR Lilbow could not handle what Life threw at him.
On November 06 2015 01:11 Penev wrote: All these wrong opinions in this thread. Good thing I, at least, am in possession of the right one.
There
Now let's watch some more Bob
I declare Penev as the official "Lilbow and his Approach to WCS Finals 2015" Thread Champion 2015 for holding the correct opinion ! Thanks to all the others participants though, the competition was fierce.
On November 05 2015 11:53 Hotshot wrote: I am not going to read 33 pages, but I got a few comments on this:
1# He won his place and ticket there. 2# Who cares what reason he lost. Being angry that he didn't practice to your standards is not fair. 3# Id he really did not practice, and ended up lied about practicing you would not be as angry with him.
Read the thread, that's not why people are angry.
I did read more comments after my post, and my comments stand.
Seems you guys are trying to bully this guy because you are not happy about his attitude. Because he does not think the way you want him to think he is in the wrong.
My thoughts too. Pro players should never be criticized. After all, they never asked for this level of scrutiny.
They never asked people to watch them roflstomp n00bs on Twitch. How did those streams show up there anyway? That is kind of creepy when you think about it. Thousands of internet stalkers victimizing these poor guys by surreptitiously eavesdropping on their otherwise private competitions. I admit, out of curiosity I watched a couple of these "streams" and I noticed not only a bunch of rude chatters making face-palm emotes, but there were even so-called "casters", hacking into the games and providing uncalled for commentary. Just rude. On top of it all, someone or some group apparently tricked these unsuspecting Starcraft players into agreeing to possibly win money if they beat up some other players. I heard the makers of Starcraft were even promoting this bs in some kind of "World Championship Series". I mean, it's really not much different from cock-fighting, ethically speaking, and should probably be made illegal or something.
On November 05 2015 11:53 Hotshot wrote: I am not going to read 33 pages, but I got a few comments on this:
1# He won his place and ticket there. 2# Who cares what reason he lost. Being angry that he didn't practice to your standards is not fair. 3# Id he really did not practice, and ended up lied about practicing you would not be as angry with him.
Read the thread, that's not why people are angry.
I did read more comments after my post, and my comments stand.
Seems you guys are trying to bully this guy because you are not happy about his attitude. Because he does not think the way you want him to think he is in the wrong.
My thoughts too. Pro players should never be criticized. After all, they never asked for this level of scrutiny.
They never asked people to watch them roflstomp n00bs on Twitch. How did those streams show up there anyway? That is kind of creepy when you think about it. Thousands of internet stalkers victimizing these poor guys by surreptitiously eavesdropping on their otherwise private competitions. I admit, out of curiosity I watched a couple of these "streams" and I noticed not only a bunch of rude chatters making face-palm emotes, but there were even so-called "casters", hacking into the games and providing uncalled for commentary. Just rude. On top of it all, someone or some group apparently tricked these unsuspecting Starcraft players into agreeing to possibly win money if they beat up some other players. I heard the makers of Starcraft were even promoting this bs in some kind of "World Championship Series". I mean, it's really not much different from cock-fighting, ethically speaking, and should probably be made illegal or something.
On November 03 2015 07:11 Specialist wrote: progamer is a joke to begin with gaming should never be considered more than a hobby he's a lazy slob who tries to get by with life by playing games most normal people see gaming as a hobby, to think you are a professional at something so stupid is absurd
lilbow can do whatever he wants at something that has 0 meaningful impact in the world
On November 06 2015 01:11 Penev wrote: All these wrong opinions in this thread. Good thing I, at least, am in possession of the right one.
There
Now let's watch some more Bob
I declare Penev as the official "Lilbow and his Approach to WCS Finals 2015" Thread Champion 2015 for holding the correct opinion ! Thanks to all the others participants though, the competition was fierce.
God bless my friend <3
It's only ROACHES solidarity don't be mistaken
All I can say to that is: All hail the Roachmasters!
On November 06 2015 01:11 Penev wrote: All these wrong opinions in this thread. Good thing I, at least, am in possession of the right one.
There
Now let's watch some more Bob
I declare Penev as the official "Lilbow and his Approach to WCS Finals 2015" Thread Champion 2015 for holding the correct opinion ! Thanks to all the others participants though, the competition was fierce.
God bless my friend <3
It's only ROACHES solidarity don't be mistaken
All I can say to that is: All hail the Roachmasters!
If you build a Nexus and a gateway before a forge you're going to have a bad time. You can get away with this in legacy because of pylon overcharge but not in Heart. He opened all 3 games with a fantastically greedy opening against the best Zerg in the world. Come on guys this is what people get coached on in Platinum league.
I know better. You guys know better. He should know better. What a waste of a seat.
Let's just say that from now on I'm already practicing to cheer for Lilbow in SC3 and I can't be bothered to cheer for him in LotV in the meantime. (Yes I only just finished watching the entire Ro16)
why are you even discussing this? its completely irrelevant. even if lilbow practised every day for a year and life didnt play a single game that same year because of 2 broken arms, lilbow would still get massacred by life.
On November 06 2015 23:48 evolsiefil wrote: why are you even discussing this? its completely irrelevant. even if lilbow practised every day for a year and life didnt play a single game that same year because of 2 broken arms, lilbow would still get massacred by life.
It seems you are clueless about the problem itself, even TLO explained it, and lot of people agree about the "excuse" he put to show how "good and serious" are foreigners compared to koreans.
Anyway, like others said, Lilbow is gonna be eaten alive if he fails to succed on LotV now after his attitude and statements. That will be the funny part, not now that destroyed the image of foreigners compared to koreans, not because the skill level, but because the responsability and hard work.
I think lot of people here are forgeting what is a cheese in sc2. What would have been the difference to practice hard 1 month ? Counter a 6 pool when you gate exp and you're dead already? What the fuck are happening to all of you ? Life just played it smarter.
Life got beaten by sjow on stage and on a fucking MACRO GAME , it doesn't mean sjow was better than life. The bad thing here is that we will never see how life would have reacted in case of midgame play against lilbow , which would have been really cool to watch.
On November 06 2015 08:28 GDI wrote: These are my thoughts.
If you build a Nexus and a gateway before a forge you're going to have a bad time. You can get away with this in legacy because of pylon overcharge but not in Heart. He opened all 3 games with a fantastically greedy opening against the best Zerg in the world. Come on guys this is what people get coached on in Platinum league.
I know better. You guys know better. He should know better. What a waste of a seat.
That is simply not true. His openings on Coda and Terraform weren't very greedy.
EPT
. Exactly. He's not getting hate for losing to Life, he's not getting hate for playing poorly, he's getting hate for embarrassing himself and embarrassing any other foreigner who'd kill for that spot at the BIGGEST TOURNAMENT OF THE YEAR and then doubling down by going on social media and basically saying "I knew I'd lose so fuck it, i didn't even try".
