AfreecaTV said, "Our former announcement was only about principle. We now realised that this issue is much more important for esports and game industry than our thought. Also, during consultation, we become understand KeSPA`s endeavor - that`s why we made a 'quick decision.' "
KeSPA responsed, "We admit that there was some sort of technicality issue. We should request stream platforms for cooperation before announcing manifesto. We considered it was urgent, which made some misunderstandings"
Besides, it is known that AfreecaTV even suggested more proactive solutions to KeSPA.
edit: This applies to BOTH BW and SC2 matchfixers.
On October 22 2015 14:29 BigFan wrote: wait, what? I thought they refused?
their explanation is that they heard about the demand through news articles, so Afreeca gave a general statement regarding their policy prematurely before receiving an official request from Kespa. Once they started exchanging words together, Afreeca realized how much impact the decision has on the eSports industry so they changed their stance.
It seems the matchfixers are banned from streaming only accredited games(SC1, SC2 and LoL) by KeSPA. So they can stream the other games or the other contents. I think it's OK.
On October 22 2015 15:47 Alucen-Will- wrote: Likely this was some sort of move pushed by someone outside Afreeca, considering the odd change of position
Korean fans reaction to Afreeca refusing to ban match fixers was pretty intense. TL users didn't see the backlash the Korean community had against Afreeca and when your customers riot against you a company will change their stance pretty quickly.
On October 22 2015 15:47 Alucen-Will- wrote: Likely this was some sort of move pushed by someone outside Afreeca, considering the odd change of position
Korean fans reaction to Afreeca refusing to ban match fixers was pretty intense. TL users didn't see the backlash the Korean community had against Afreeca and when your customers riot against you a company will change their stance pretty quickly.
Thank god they finally listened...
I guess DCStarcraftGall post was pretty small sample compared to the backlash you are talking about.
On October 22 2015 15:47 Alucen-Will- wrote: Likely this was some sort of move pushed by someone outside Afreeca, considering the odd change of position
Korean fans reaction to Afreeca refusing to ban match fixers was pretty intense. TL users didn't see the backlash the Korean community had against Afreeca and when your customers riot against you a company will change their stance pretty quickly.
Yeah. While I think they had the right to not get involved, this is the right move because they are host to the GSL tournament and now play a bigger role in the sc2 community.
How would you say korean reactions and responses to this are compared to last time when it happened in BW?
Most Korean esports fans were outrageous on afreeca's decision to let match fixers keep streaming on SC.
And the opinion was led by casters, ex-progamers, journalists. Even the current progamers were showing their fury by trying to boycott GSL.
Well, we Korean fans had a victory over afreeca this time. I'm sure afreeca underestimated what would happen if they refused, they made the right decision now, but too late. Their name is already tilted now. They should have accepted in the first place.
Many people say that money rules the Afreeca World and that they changed opinion after the outrage.
I want to point out however that kespa themselves admit to fault since they did not offically reach out to Afreeca but just posted a "manifesto". To be honet I think just posting something like that without first contacting Afreeca is very bad manners and I totally understand Afreecas initial reaction in that situation.
Thus the wrongdoing is at least 50% on kespa and there's no foundation at all for it being the money of the public outrage that made Afreeca change their minds. Maybe kespa making contact and talking with them about it was all that was needed.
Sounds like Afreeca said they didn't want kespa dictating things, then as soon as magnitude/full context/backlash became apparent changed. I agree with them on both counts.
I guess we couldn't really expect anything else since KeSPA doesn't lose very often. Still, it's sad.
One thing that continuously irritates me about being a SC2 fan is that everything gets decided in Korea, based on their incomprehensible "culture" (which seems to be the general excuse for any weird behaviour east of Istanbul). I am not really sure that it would be much better in today's US for that matter, but still. While I watch mostly only Korean SC2, because the games are just better, the out-of-the-game stuff there annoys me more and more.
If they are gonna continue with it, there may come a day when I will become a fan of WCS Welfare.
There should be clemency for the BW guys at this point imo. I don't watch any of their streams or even know if any of them do stream, but if they still do, it has been a long time since their crime. Forgive and forget.
I understand that banning the new match fixers and keeping the old is inconsistent though, so what can you do.
Bummer about the whole scandal and I'm glad Kespa and all parties involved are serious about shutting it out.
On October 22 2015 18:04 opisska wrote: I guess we couldn't really expect anything else since KeSPA doesn't lose very often. Still, it's sad.
One thing that continuously irritates me about being a SC2 fan is that everything gets decided in Korea, based on their incomprehensible "culture" (which seems to be the general excuse for any weird behaviour east of Istanbul). I am not really sure that it would be much better in today's US for that matter, but still. While I watch mostly only Korean SC2, because the games are just better, the out-of-the-game stuff there annoys me more and more.
If they are gonna continue with it, there may come a day when I will become a fan of WCS Welfare.
Stop bringing "culture" things to this issue. Both KeSPA and Afreeca did what they can do, not crossing their line.
You shouldn’t be biased against Asians, implying wrong stereotypes that Asians are just irrational.
Finally. It was about time they took the sound course of action. I don't even understand how they thought they could ignore the issue as if they are not part of it.
On October 22 2015 18:04 opisska wrote: I guess we couldn't really expect anything else since KeSPA doesn't lose very often. Still, it's sad.
One thing that continuously irritates me about being a SC2 fan is that everything gets decided in Korea, based on their incomprehensible "culture" (which seems to be the general excuse for any weird behaviour east of Istanbul). I am not really sure that it would be much better in today's US for that matter, but still. While I watch mostly only Korean SC2, because the games are just better, the out-of-the-game stuff there annoys me more and more.
If they are gonna continue with it, there may come a day when I will become a fan of WCS Welfare.
What is so incomprehensible? Your company hosts game competitions, you openly allow former/current criminals to operate and earn money on your service on these games whose scene they deeply damaged. Who would publicly support that? What sponsors in their right mind would go "it's ok, I'll help them anyway"? They made a huge miscalculation and public reaction/backlash showed how wrong they are. They yielded. That's all there is to it.
Well that was fast. I figured it'd take Afreeca a bit longer, but apparently the rumour about kespa players pulling out of GSL was enough. Or maybe Blizzard acted like a proper company for once and actually told Afreeca to ban them. Either way these are amazing news! Given what 2010's scandal did to eSports I really don't believe that any of them deserve to ever touch the game again.
On October 22 2015 18:04 opisska wrote: I guess we couldn't really expect anything else since KeSPA doesn't lose very often. Still, it's sad.
One thing that continuously irritates me about being a SC2 fan is that everything gets decided in Korea, based on their incomprehensible "culture" (which seems to be the general excuse for any weird behaviour east of Istanbul). I am not really sure that it would be much better in today's US for that matter, but still. While I watch mostly only Korean SC2, because the games are just better, the out-of-the-game stuff there annoys me more and more.
If they are gonna continue with it, there may come a day when I will become a fan of WCS Welfare.
Exactly my thoughts, well since I am watching at work it's time to stop watching S*L and Proleague for a while(when they start, obv.).
On October 22 2015 15:47 Alucen-Will- wrote: Likely this was some sort of move pushed by someone outside Afreeca, considering the odd change of position
Korean fans reaction to Afreeca refusing to ban match fixers was pretty intense. TL users didn't see the backlash the Korean community had against Afreeca and when your customers riot against you a company will change their stance pretty quickly.
I witnessed the reactions to a bullying case in K-pop group T-ARA. Intense indeed (completely ridiculous)
On October 22 2015 18:04 opisska wrote: I guess we couldn't really expect anything else since KeSPA doesn't lose very often. Still, it's sad.
One thing that continuously irritates me about being a SC2 fan is that everything gets decided in Korea, based on their incomprehensible "culture" (which seems to be the general excuse for any weird behaviour east of Istanbul). I am not really sure that it would be much better in today's US for that matter, but still. While I watch mostly only Korean SC2, because the games are just better, the out-of-the-game stuff there annoys me more and more.
If they are gonna continue with it, there may come a day when I will become a fan of WCS Welfare.
Exactly my thoughts, well since I am watching at work it's time to stop watching S*L and Proleague for a while(when they start, obv.).
why? do you want the company thats hosting GSL to allow matchfixers to stream on their site? meanwhile theyre banning people for using alternative streaming websites... Dont get any ideas about afreeca being this super liberal "everyone get to do whatever they want" streaming platform. Because they arent, and they never were.
On October 22 2015 18:04 opisska wrote: I guess we couldn't really expect anything else since KeSPA doesn't lose very often. Still, it's sad.
One thing that continuously irritates me about being a SC2 fan is that everything gets decided in Korea, based on their incomprehensible "culture" (which seems to be the general excuse for any weird behaviour east of Istanbul). I am not really sure that it would be much better in today's US for that matter, but still. While I watch mostly only Korean SC2, because the games are just better, the out-of-the-game stuff there annoys me more and more.
If they are gonna continue with it, there may come a day when I will become a fan of WCS Welfare.
Exactly my thoughts, well since I am watching at work it's time to stop watching S*L and Proleague for a while(when they start, obv.).
why? do you want the company thats hosting GSL to allow matchfixers to stream on their site? meanwhile theyre banning people for using alternative streaming websites... Dont get any ideas about afreeca being this super liberal "everyone get to do whatever they want" streaming platform. Because they arent, and they never were.
I am risking my job by having broadcast on my background and I won't do it for KeSPA anymore. Reasons are all over these threads, search for them.
On October 22 2015 17:17 kchany2 wrote: Most Korean esports fans were outrageous on afreeca's decision to let match fixers keep streaming on SC.
And the opinion was led by casters, ex-progamers, journalists. Even the current progamers were showing their fury by trying to boycott GSL.
Well, we Korean fans had a victory over afreeca this time. I'm sure afreeca underestimated what would happen if they refused, they made the right decision now, but too late. Their name is already tilted now. They should have accepted in the first place.
Are there any Korean fans who recognize the hand of KeSPA in this? Would there have been such an uproar if KeSPA never made the public request?
Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
On October 22 2015 18:52 DwD wrote: Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
Afreeca is not the venue for match fixers to relax and have a gay old time with their fans. Not now that it's responsible for the competitive integrity of the most competitive league in SC2.
On October 22 2015 18:52 DwD wrote: Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
People having a transgression (before the law) in a certain field precludes them from working in that field (for a loooong time). There are numerous examples for this in all industrialized nations. You arent allowed to make laws if you have a felony record, you arent allowed to practice law if u have been disbarred for misconduct or abuse of the legal system, you arent allowed to prescribe controlled substances (drugs) if you have been in conflict with laws covering them. Even traditional sports preclude you from earning money with your sport if you were found to have cheated.
Nobody is saying that match fixers shouldnt be able to move on after being punished. They just shouldnt be able to make a living with the thing they abused.
On October 22 2015 18:04 opisska wrote: One thing that continuously irritates me about being a SC2 fan is that everything gets decided in Korea, based on their incomprehensible "culture" (which seems to be the general excuse for any weird behaviour east of Istanbul)
Yeah, as a Korean I've never ever encountered any weird 'cultural' happenings in the west. [/SARCASM]
This has very little to do with culture and very much to do with corporate business.
On October 22 2015 18:52 DwD wrote: Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
People having a transgression (before the law) in a certain field precludes them from working in that field (for a loooong time). There are numerous examples for this in all industrialized nations. You arent allowed to make laws if you have a felony record, you arent allowed to practice law if u have been disbarred for misconduct or abuse of the legal system, you arent allowed to prescribe controlled substances (drugs) if you have been in conflict with laws covering them. Even traditional sports preclude you from earning money with your sport if you were found to have cheated.
Nobody is saying that match fixers shouldnt be able to move on after being punished. They just shouldnt be able to make a living with the thing they abused.
Exactly this. They're free to do what they want, hell, let them play the damn game if they paid for it, but don't let them make money from it ever again.
On October 22 2015 18:52 DwD wrote: Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
People having a transgression (before the law) in a certain field precludes them from working in that field (for a loooong time). There are numerous examples for this in all industrialized nations. You arent allowed to make laws if you have a felony record, you arent allowed to practice law if u have been disbarred for misconduct or abuse of the legal system, you arent allowed to prescribe controlled substances (drugs) if you have been in conflict with laws covering them. Even traditional sports preclude you from earning money with your sport if you were found to have cheated.
Nobody is saying that match fixers shouldnt be able to move on after being punished. They just shouldnt be able to make a living with the thing they abused.
Exactly this. They're free to do what they want, hell, let them play the damn game if they paid for it, but don't let them make money from it ever again.
Streaming and progaming is not the same thing. I think banning them from streaming platforms is just going overboard with social justice.
On October 22 2015 18:52 DwD wrote: Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
People having a transgression (before the law) in a certain field precludes them from working in that field (for a loooong time). There are numerous examples for this in all industrialized nations. You arent allowed to make laws if you have a felony record, you arent allowed to practice law if u have been disbarred for misconduct or abuse of the legal system, you arent allowed to prescribe controlled substances (drugs) if you have been in conflict with laws covering them. Even traditional sports preclude you from earning money with your sport if you were found to have cheated.
Nobody is saying that match fixers shouldnt be able to move on after being punished. They just shouldnt be able to make a living with the thing they abused.
Exactly this. They're free to do what they want, hell, let them play the damn game if they paid for it, but don't let them make money from it ever again.
Streaming and progaming is not the same thing. I think banning them from streaming platforms is just going overboard with social justice.
I wonder if they could challenge this in court
I don't know about the laws of South Korea, but I think in most European country it could be challenged, since it would be basically discrimination, right? (the reason they're banned is because they have a specific criminal record)
On October 22 2015 18:52 DwD wrote: Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
People having a transgression (before the law) in a certain field precludes them from working in that field (for a loooong time). There are numerous examples for this in all industrialized nations. You arent allowed to make laws if you have a felony record, you arent allowed to practice law if u have been disbarred for misconduct or abuse of the legal system, you arent allowed to prescribe controlled substances (drugs) if you have been in conflict with laws covering them. Even traditional sports preclude you from earning money with your sport if you were found to have cheated.
Nobody is saying that match fixers shouldnt be able to move on after being punished. They just shouldnt be able to make a living with the thing they abused.
Exactly this. They're free to do what they want, hell, let them play the damn game if they paid for it, but don't let them make money from it ever again.
Streaming and progaming is not the same thing. I think banning them from streaming platforms is just going overboard with social justice.
I wonder if they could challenge this in court
highly unlikely that anyone would go to court over this, honestly if they really wanted to stream that badly they could just go over to KOO and Longzhu because china don't give a fuck, considering how much they loved inviting savior to their tournaments.
also they are still allowed to stream everything but Starcraft and LoL.
On October 22 2015 18:52 DwD wrote: Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
People having a transgression (before the law) in a certain field precludes them from working in that field (for a loooong time). There are numerous examples for this in all industrialized nations. You arent allowed to make laws if you have a felony record, you arent allowed to practice law if u have been disbarred for misconduct or abuse of the legal system, you arent allowed to prescribe controlled substances (drugs) if you have been in conflict with laws covering them. Even traditional sports preclude you from earning money with your sport if you were found to have cheated.
Nobody is saying that match fixers shouldnt be able to move on after being punished. They just shouldnt be able to make a living with the thing they abused.
Exactly this. They're free to do what they want, hell, let them play the damn game if they paid for it, but don't let them make money from it ever again.
Streaming and progaming is not the same thing. I think banning them from streaming platforms is just going overboard with social justice.
I wonder if they could challenge this in court
highly unlikely that anyone would go to court over this, honestly if they really wanted to stream that badly they could just go over to KOO and Longzhu because china don't give a fuck, considering how much they loved inviting savior to their tournaments.
also they are still allowed to stream everything but Starcraft and LoL.
If someone would challange this infront of a court, he would win.
And yeah, but they stream SC Broodwar, a game kespa has given up...
On October 22 2015 18:52 DwD wrote: Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
People having a transgression (before the law) in a certain field precludes them from working in that field (for a loooong time). There are numerous examples for this in all industrialized nations. You arent allowed to make laws if you have a felony record, you arent allowed to practice law if u have been disbarred for misconduct or abuse of the legal system, you arent allowed to prescribe controlled substances (drugs) if you have been in conflict with laws covering them. Even traditional sports preclude you from earning money with your sport if you were found to have cheated.
Nobody is saying that match fixers shouldnt be able to move on after being punished. They just shouldnt be able to make a living with the thing they abused.
Exactly this. They're free to do what they want, hell, let them play the damn game if they paid for it, but don't let them make money from it ever again.
Streaming and progaming is not the same thing. I think banning them from streaming platforms is just going overboard with social justice.
I wonder if they could challenge this in court
highly unlikely that anyone would go to court over this, honestly if they really wanted to stream that badly they could just go over to KOO and Longzhu because china don't give a fuck, considering how much they loved inviting savior to their tournaments.
also they are still allowed to stream everything but Starcraft and LoL.
If someone would challange this infront of a court, he would win.
And yeah, but they stream SC Broodwar, a game kespa has given up...
I'm pretty sure every business is allowed to choose its own customers, even without giving a reason.
On October 22 2015 18:52 DwD wrote: Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
People having a transgression (before the law) in a certain field precludes them from working in that field (for a loooong time). There are numerous examples for this in all industrialized nations. You arent allowed to make laws if you have a felony record, you arent allowed to practice law if u have been disbarred for misconduct or abuse of the legal system, you arent allowed to prescribe controlled substances (drugs) if you have been in conflict with laws covering them. Even traditional sports preclude you from earning money with your sport if you were found to have cheated.
Nobody is saying that match fixers shouldnt be able to move on after being punished. They just shouldnt be able to make a living with the thing they abused.
Exactly this. They're free to do what they want, hell, let them play the damn game if they paid for it, but don't let them make money from it ever again.
Streaming and progaming is not the same thing. I think banning them from streaming platforms is just going overboard with social justice.
I wonder if they could challenge this in court
highly unlikely that anyone would go to court over this, honestly if they really wanted to stream that badly they could just go over to KOO and Longzhu because china don't give a fuck, considering how much they loved inviting savior to their tournaments.
also they are still allowed to stream everything but Starcraft and LoL.
If someone would challange this infront of a court, he would win.
And yeah, but they stream SC Broodwar, a game kespa has given up...
I'm pretty sure every business is allowed to choose its own customers, even without giving a reason.
You get the problem, when you give a reason. And they give a reason "5 year ago matchfix." And thats will definitly hurt you.
Also he is not just a customer, as he makes Afreeca earn money as also earn money from Afreeca, he is more kind of buisnespartner.
On October 22 2015 18:52 DwD wrote: Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
People having a transgression (before the law) in a certain field precludes them from working in that field (for a loooong time). There are numerous examples for this in all industrialized nations. You arent allowed to make laws if you have a felony record, you arent allowed to practice law if u have been disbarred for misconduct or abuse of the legal system, you arent allowed to prescribe controlled substances (drugs) if you have been in conflict with laws covering them. Even traditional sports preclude you from earning money with your sport if you were found to have cheated.
Nobody is saying that match fixers shouldnt be able to move on after being punished. They just shouldnt be able to make a living with the thing they abused.
Exactly this. They're free to do what they want, hell, let them play the damn game if they paid for it, but don't let them make money from it ever again.
Streaming and progaming is not the same thing. I think banning them from streaming platforms is just going overboard with social justice.
I wonder if they could challenge this in court
highly unlikely that anyone would go to court over this, honestly if they really wanted to stream that badly they could just go over to KOO and Longzhu because china don't give a fuck, considering how much they loved inviting savior to their tournaments.
also they are still allowed to stream everything but Starcraft and LoL.
If someone would challange this infront of a court, he would win.
And yeah, but they stream SC Broodwar, a game kespa has given up...
yeah they most likely will win, still think they won't do it though.
On October 22 2015 18:52 DwD wrote: Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
People having a transgression (before the law) in a certain field precludes them from working in that field (for a loooong time). There are numerous examples for this in all industrialized nations. You arent allowed to make laws if you have a felony record, you arent allowed to practice law if u have been disbarred for misconduct or abuse of the legal system, you arent allowed to prescribe controlled substances (drugs) if you have been in conflict with laws covering them. Even traditional sports preclude you from earning money with your sport if you were found to have cheated.
Nobody is saying that match fixers shouldnt be able to move on after being punished. They just shouldnt be able to make a living with the thing they abused.
Exactly this. They're free to do what they want, hell, let them play the damn game if they paid for it, but don't let them make money from it ever again.
Streaming and progaming is not the same thing. I think banning them from streaming platforms is just going overboard with social justice.
I wonder if they could challenge this in court
highly unlikely that anyone would go to court over this, honestly if they really wanted to stream that badly they could just go over to KOO and Longzhu because china don't give a fuck, considering how much they loved inviting savior to their tournaments.
also they are still allowed to stream everything but Starcraft and LoL.
If someone would challange this infront of a court, he would win.
And yeah, but they stream SC Broodwar, a game kespa has given up...
I'm pretty sure every business is allowed to choose its own customers, even without giving a reason.
You get the problem, when you give a reason. And they give a reason "5 year ago matchfix." And thats will definitly hurt you.
Also he is not just a customer, as he makes Afreeca earn money as also earn money from Afreeca, he is more kind of buisnespartner.
They can also freely choose their own business partners.
On October 22 2015 19:38 BLinD-RawR wrote: also they are still allowed to stream everything but Starcraft and LoL.
This is fine, I don't care if they stream their eating habits on Afreeca.
On October 22 2015 18:52 DwD wrote: Not a fan of this at all. People who have already been fined/banned/ostracized for matchfixing already had their punishment and dealt with it. People must be allowed to move on with their lives after a mistake. They aren't even streaming professional games but rather just playing for fun, which their fans appreciate a lot.
Afreeca caved to the pressure, very disappointing.
People having a transgression (before the law) in a certain field precludes them from working in that field (for a loooong time). There are numerous examples for this in all industrialized nations. You arent allowed to make laws if you have a felony record, you arent allowed to practice law if u have been disbarred for misconduct or abuse of the legal system, you arent allowed to prescribe controlled substances (drugs) if you have been in conflict with laws covering them. Even traditional sports preclude you from earning money with your sport if you were found to have cheated.
Nobody is saying that match fixers shouldnt be able to move on after being punished. They just shouldnt be able to make a living with the thing they abused.
Exactly this. They're free to do what they want, hell, let them play the damn game if they paid for it, but don't let them make money from it ever again.
Streaming and progaming is not the same thing. I think banning them from streaming platforms is just going overboard with social justice.
I wonder if they could challenge this in court
highly unlikely that anyone would go to court over this, honestly if they really wanted to stream that badly they could just go over to KOO and Longzhu because china don't give a fuck, considering how much they loved inviting savior to their tournaments.
also they are still allowed to stream everything but Starcraft and LoL.
If someone would challange this infront of a court, he would win.
And yeah, but they stream SC Broodwar, a game kespa has given up...
I'm pretty sure every business is allowed to choose its own customers, even without giving a reason.
You get the problem, when you give a reason. And they give a reason "5 year ago matchfix." And thats will definitly hurt you.
Also he is not just a customer, as he makes Afreeca earn money as also earn money from Afreeca, he is more kind of buisnespartner.
I'm pretty sure that the potential costumer being a criminal, in particular a criminal in a field related to yours, is a valid reason that no court is going to deny you. At least in most European countries.
This is getting way out of hand....soon Kespa dont want them to go to their local corner store to get milk because a progamer is also going to there....like wtf
How it works for people who commits a crime (not all of them)
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, life goes on.
How Kespa wants it to be
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, we will destroy your life.
On October 22 2015 21:09 OtherWorld wrote: Lame. Sad times we live in when PR is more important than reasoning.
I agree, but there is really nothing they can do. In fact, them publicly stating (originally) that they would not ban ex-matchfixers is pretty respectable, and it makes me like Afreeca more than I did before. But when there's such an outrage for that kind of response, and you are trying to maintain relations with various other organizations (Kespa), the only choice they had was to cave, and just ban the players.
It would be interesting to see where this falls in terms of "legality". Even if it was illegal for Afreeca/other streaming services to deny service (ban) them for their past actions, I doubt anyone would go to court over it though.
Also, one shouldn't be mad at Afreeca for this. They have no actual say in this. Kespa and the Korean community is way more to blame for causing this to happen.
On October 22 2015 21:09 OtherWorld wrote: Lame. Sad times we live in when PR is more important than reasoning.
I agree, but there is really nothing they can do. In fact, them publicly stating (originally) that they would not ban ex-matchfixers is pretty respectable, and it makes me like Afreeca more than I did before. But when there's such an outrage for that kind of response, and you are trying to maintain relations with various other organizations (Kespa), the only choice they had was to cave, and just ban the players.
It would be interesting to see where this falls in terms of "legality". Even if it was illegal for Afreeca/other streaming services to deny service (ban) them for their past actions, I doubt anyone would go to court over it though.
Also, one shouldn't be mad at Afreeca for this. They have no actual say in this. Kespa and the Korean community is way more to blame for causing this to happen.
They could say they would do that if the allegations are proven in court (and I guess in the meantime ban BW match fixers) because technically this people are still innocent.
On October 22 2015 21:14 Starecat wrote: Yay let celebrate revenge being done.
Points to KeSPA assholes as expected. People should kill the matchfixers as well living on Korea hurts eSports : ]
last I checked former match-fixers live completely normal lives in society but if you want to become a brutal murderer in the name of korean esports, thats upto you.
On October 22 2015 21:09 OtherWorld wrote: Lame. Sad times we live in when PR is more important than reasoning.
I agree, but there is really nothing they can do. In fact, them publicly stating (originally) that they would not ban ex-matchfixers is pretty respectable, and it makes me like Afreeca more than I did before. But when there's such an outrage for that kind of response, and you are trying to maintain relations with various other organizations (Kespa), the only choice they had was to cave, and just ban the players.
It would be interesting to see where this falls in terms of "legality". Even if it was illegal for Afreeca/other streaming services to deny service (ban) them for their past actions, I doubt anyone would go to court over it though.
Also, one shouldn't be mad at Afreeca for this. They have no actual say in this. Kespa and the Korean community is way more to blame for causing this to happen.
They could say they would do that if the allegations are proven in court (and I guess in the meantime ban BW match fixers) because technically this people are still innocent.
But why punish BW match fixers retrospectively? Are they still criminals for something they have done 5 years ago and while they already paid for it?
On October 22 2015 20:56 [Svall]Granis wrote: This is getting way out of hand....soon Kespa dont want them to go to their local corner store to get milk because a progamer is also going to there....like wtf
How it works for people who commits a crime (not all of them)
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, life goes on.
How Kespa wants it to be
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, we will destroy your life.
How you want it to be.
You commit a crime, nothing happens and you get a medal.
Yes it's easy to make silly statements like this. Match fixing and cheaters destroy games. No pity for them. If a pedophile isn't allowed to work with children anymore I wouldn't drop a tear. Same goes for these guys.
On October 22 2015 21:09 OtherWorld wrote: Lame. Sad times we live in when PR is more important than reasoning.
I agree, but there is really nothing they can do. In fact, them publicly stating (originally) that they would not ban ex-matchfixers is pretty respectable, and it makes me like Afreeca more than I did before. But when there's such an outrage for that kind of response, and you are trying to maintain relations with various other organizations (Kespa), the only choice they had was to cave, and just ban the players.
It would be interesting to see where this falls in terms of "legality". Even if it was illegal for Afreeca/other streaming services to deny service (ban) them for their past actions, I doubt anyone would go to court over it though.
Also, one shouldn't be mad at Afreeca for this. They have no actual say in this. Kespa and the Korean community is way more to blame for causing this to happen.
They could say they would do that if the allegations are proven in court (and I guess in the meantime ban BW match fixers) because technically this people are still innocent.
But why punish BW match fixers retrospectively? Are they still criminals for something they have done 5 years ago and while they already paid for it?
they are banned from streaming BW and I doubt its as much as a punishment to hwasin whos viewers are mostly female who just want to see him flex, he can continue to pander to them and he'll be fine, he can just go offline on his stream when he plays BW.
On October 22 2015 14:29 BigFan wrote: wait, what? I thought they refused?
their explanation is that they heard about the demand through news articles, so Afreeca gave a general statement regarding their policy prematurely before receiving an official request from Kespa. Once they started exchanging words together, Afreeca realized how much impact the decision has on the eSports industry so they changed their stance.
I can't tell if that's PR-friendly talk for 'They threatened a boycott of GSL' or not.
On October 22 2015 17:13 BisuDagger wrote: While I think they had the right to not get involved, this is the right move because they are host to the GSL tournament and now play a bigger role in the sc2 community.
Pretty much this. Whilst, legally, they could do whatever they wanted; their position was completely incompatible with hosting the GSL.
I`m really worried that people are being mistaken about the situation.
First, it was AfreecaTV that holds all the cards. KeSPA could do nothing if AfreecaTV refuses - KeSPA doesn't have much thing to do with boycotting. It was players and teams who said boycotting, not KeSPA.
Second, matchfixers cannot challenge this issue to the court, cause they`ll lose. AfreecaTV clearly states that they can ban anyone who could harm the company`s reputation, according to the terms 13-2. This is the reason why I said Afreeca was on the higher ground; they can choose either side, without taking any legal risk except public criticism.
And.. Voila! they chose money that comes from balloons.
please don`t mention about human rights - AfreecaTV do not give a shit about that. it`s just an excuse.
On October 22 2015 21:09 OtherWorld wrote: Lame. Sad times we live in when PR is more important than reasoning.
I agree, but there is really nothing they can do. In fact, them publicly stating (originally) that they would not ban ex-matchfixers is pretty respectable, and it makes me like Afreeca more than I did before. But when there's such an outrage for that kind of response, and you are trying to maintain relations with various other organizations (Kespa), the only choice they had was to cave, and just ban the players.
It would be interesting to see where this falls in terms of "legality". Even if it was illegal for Afreeca/other streaming services to deny service (ban) them for their past actions, I doubt anyone would go to court over it though.
Also, one shouldn't be mad at Afreeca for this. They have no actual say in this. Kespa and the Korean community is way more to blame for causing this to happen.
They could say they would do that if the allegations are proven in court (and I guess in the meantime ban BW match fixers) because technically this people are still innocent.
But why punish BW match fixers retrospectively? Are they still criminals for something they have done 5 years ago and while they already paid for it?
Were BW fixers were - in fact - sentenced so it makes more sense than to punish people before their trial even started.
On October 22 2015 17:13 BisuDagger wrote: While I think they had the right to not get involved, this is the right move because they are host to the GSL tournament and now play a bigger role in the sc2 community.
Pretty much this. Whilst, legally, they could do whatever they wanted; their position was completely incompatible with hosting the GSL.
Its the right thing to do.
I believe people are blowing this out of proportion. It's not the right thing to do before the trial. GSL and their personal streams are different Afreeca channels.
On October 22 2015 20:56 [Svall]Granis wrote: This is getting way out of hand....soon Kespa dont want them to go to their local corner store to get milk because a progamer is also going to there....like wtf
How it works for people who commits a crime (not all of them)
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, life goes on.
How Kespa wants it to be
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, we will destroy your life.
How you want it to be.
You commit a crime, nothing happens and you get a medal.
Yes it's easy to make silly statements like this. Match fixing and cheaters destroy games. No pity for them. If a pedophile isn't allowed to work with children anymore I wouldn't drop a tear. Same goes for these guys.
Lol you can't be serious. If a pedophile works with children there is a risk he does his crime again. If a matchfixer is allowed to stream there is no such risk because streaming games is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to his crime. He just gets discriminated from other parts of life because of a criminal past. This is not justice, it's revenge.
On October 22 2015 20:56 [Svall]Granis wrote: This is getting way out of hand....soon Kespa dont want them to go to their local corner store to get milk because a progamer is also going to there....like wtf
How it works for people who commits a crime (not all of them)
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, life goes on.
How Kespa wants it to be
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, we will destroy your life.
How you want it to be.
You commit a crime, nothing happens and you get a medal.
Yes it's easy to make silly statements like this. Match fixing and cheaters destroy games. No pity for them. If a pedophile isn't allowed to work with children anymore I wouldn't drop a tear. Same goes for these guys.
Lol you can't be serious. If a pedophile works with children there is a risk he does his crime again. If a matchfixer is allowed to stream there is no such risk because streaming games is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to his crime. He just gets discriminated from other parts of life because of a criminal past. This is not justice, it's revenge.
On October 22 2015 20:56 [Svall]Granis wrote: This is getting way out of hand....soon Kespa dont want them to go to their local corner store to get milk because a progamer is also going to there....like wtf
How it works for people who commits a crime (not all of them)
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, life goes on.
How Kespa wants it to be
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, we will destroy your life.
How you want it to be.
You commit a crime, nothing happens and you get a medal.
Yes it's easy to make silly statements like this. Match fixing and cheaters destroy games. No pity for them. If a pedophile isn't allowed to work with children anymore I wouldn't drop a tear. Same goes for these guys.
Lol you can't be serious. If a pedophile works with children there is a risk he does his crime again. If a matchfixer is allowed to stream there is no such risk because streaming games is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to his crime. He just gets discriminated from other parts of life because of a criminal past. This is not justice, it's revenge.
Well I guess for some people revenge is justice
I'd say comparing match fixing to pedophile is so stupid, it should have warn attached.
On October 22 2015 22:40 eviltomahawk wrote: It was for the greater good. All that friction felt unnecessary and wouldn't have been good in the long run anyways.
This was excuse of so many bad deeds in history... Therefore I am not surprised someone used it.
On October 22 2015 20:56 [Svall]Granis wrote: This is getting way out of hand....soon Kespa dont want them to go to their local corner store to get milk because a progamer is also going to there....like wtf
How it works for people who commits a crime (not all of them)
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, life goes on.
How Kespa wants it to be
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, we will destroy your life.
How you want it to be.
You commit a crime, nothing happens and you get a medal.
Yes it's easy to make silly statements like this. Match fixing and cheaters destroy games. No pity for them. If a pedophile isn't allowed to work with children anymore I wouldn't drop a tear. Same goes for these guys.
Lol you can't be serious. If a pedophile works with children there is a risk he does his crime again. If a matchfixer is allowed to stream there is no such risk because streaming games is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to his crime. He just gets discriminated from other parts of life because of a criminal past. This is not justice, it's revenge.
Well I guess for some people revenge is justice
The definition of justice is not something concrete. It's what people in the society you live in decide on. I don't see how this punishment is unreasonable at all. They are banned from making money from the game they abused and ruined. They are free to play the game whenever they want and move on to whatever they want with their lives. Some people are making it seem like these matchfixers's right are violated. That's ridiculous.
On October 22 2015 21:59 Thouhastmail wrote: And.. Voila! they chose money that comes from balloons.
No. They chose ethics, sportsmanship and common sense.
Who did? There's no ethics involved, it was far beyond sportsmanship and it was less common sense more PR & $$
Kinda expected from a company that is supposed to make money though, i don't really understand where the uproar comes from. For us westerners, eSport might be all candy and marshmallows and stuff - that's quite the different story in Korea.
Especially considering what hit they took when it happened the last time.
Well, I personally feel that matchfixers streaming was an issue best left to the court of public opinion (ie. those who feel that matchfixers don't deserve any attention, just boycott the stream), but Afreeca is certainly within their rights as a private company to ban whoever it wants to, and when you have pressure from both Kespa (especially important now that Afreeca is running a major league) and from your own users, it would be pretty hard to ignore those opinions.
In my opinion, all this hubbub over streaming is just a silly distraction from the REAL issues at stake - matchfixing in official matches. I am far more concerned over whether investigation of past games continues, and if additional safeguards are being put in place to deter/prevent additional matchfixing, than over whether the disgraced players get a couple balloons from misguided fans.
On October 22 2015 23:15 jubil wrote: Well, I personally feel that matchfixers streaming was an issue best left to the court of public opinion (ie. those who feel that matchfixers don't deserve any attention, just boycott the stream), but Afreeca is certainly within their rights as a private company to ban whoever it wants to, and when you have pressure from both Kespa (especially important now that Afreeca is running a major league) and from your own users, it would be pretty hard to ignore those opinions.
In my opinion, all this hubbub over streaming is just a silly distraction from the REAL issues at stake - matchfixing in official matches. I am far more concerned over whether investigation of past games continues, and if additional safeguards are being put in place to deter/prevent additional matchfixing, than over whether the disgraced players get a couple balloons from misguided fans.
If AfreecaTV simply didn't say anything, then they wouldn't have had this much negative attention and backlash and wouldn't be forced to ban matchfixers.
If a reporter or KeSPA eventually asks them whether they will do something about the matchfixers, AfreecaTV could've simply used the standard business tactic that Blizzard always uses, which is to imply some sort of vague postponement on a decision with a statement like "We thank you for sharing your concerns, as it is an important issue to us, and we are currently discussing with the AfreecaTV(TM) staff and will make the most fair decision in the upcoming future." Then the masses will forget about it soon after, and AfreecaTV could continue postponing that decision whenever a reporter asks them about it.
It's sad that we live in a world where companies and social groups feel the need to punish people regardless of what the actual justice system of that country decides is a necessary punishment.
Why should one mistake ruin everything else you try and do online?
On October 22 2015 23:41 Lazare1969 wrote: AfreecaTV made a tactical mistake here.
If AfreecaTV simply didn't say anything, then they wouldn't have had this much negative attention and backlash and wouldn't be forced to ban matchfixers.
If a reporter or KeSPA eventually asks them whether they will do something about the matchfixers, AfreecaTV could've simply used the standard business tactic that Blizzard always uses, which is to imply some sort of vague postponement on a decision with a statement like "We thank you for sharing your concerns, as it is an important issue to us, and we are currently discussing with the AfreecaTV(TM) staff and will make the most fair decision in the upcoming future." Then the masses will forget about it soon after, and AfreecaTV could continue postponing that decision whenever a reporter asks them about it.
No that won't work. Afreeca is THE streaming platform in Korea and it is where the past culprits have been streaming and making money. They were already under fire in the past about this.
The moment Kespa made the announcement, it was all about whether or not Afreeca will comply and everyone's attention was on them.
They would have faced backlash even if Kespa didn't make the announcement. Them reacting prematurely just shot them in the foot.
It's disgusting that they are trying to control the lives of people who have already paid for or will pay for their crimes by the court.. Them not being able to stream other games is just wrong..
disappointing move from afreeca, i guess they have too much invested in gsl to really do anything else given the actions of kespa and the ridiculous sounding levels of backlash in korea, all the while the root causes of matchfixing go untouched, and most of the matchfixers are free to carry on doing whatever they like
On October 23 2015 00:06 tritonice wrote: Afreeca: "We bought GSL!"
Kespa: "OK! Great news."
Kespa: "Yoda, Gerrard, and ByoongByoong banned for matchfixing"
Afreeca: "We don't care about matchfixers streaming, punishment is not our problem"
Kespa: "No Kespa players in GSL."
Afreeca: "Our bad, matchfixers banned, all's good now, right?"
I think they reversed their decision because the fans pressure (all esports fans and media) in South Korea, GSL is not that important for Afrecca because it is SC2 what we are talking about, not LoL, or even BW. Kespa move was very bad, how could you make a public request before contacting the other company.
On October 22 2015 21:59 Thouhastmail wrote: And.. Voila! they chose money that comes from balloons.
No. They chose ethics, sportsmanship and common sense.
Ethics? Ethics? There's no ethics in this decision, it's a purely moral decision. Sportsmanship is not involved since streaming has nothing to do with matchfixing.
I feel I haven't translated all the feelings in Korean community that was expressed when Afreeca has refused. There were two reasons and 1. There were too many cuss words going around and I didn't want any flame wars starting 2. I felt a logical approach would have been better.
I guess I left out all the parts where many Starcraft was basically a national game until 2010, and people who dropped out of the fandom still have a reflexive repulse to matchfixing, which has shook their fond memories.
Ex) They changed back to normal now, but half my Katalk friend's status changed into cuss words after Afreeca's refusal news, and people sent me texts about if SC2 will close down now. Choya was so overflooded with texts that he had to quit streaming and went to get drunk.
I still haven't seen any explanation as to how this is any different from a lynch mob getting its way and just plain old dirty corporatism trampling over people. Feels like the 1800's, it really does.
Punishment for match fixing has too be strict, draconian even. Every player has to understand the risk associated with match fixing; their entire skill set *has* to be rendered completely useless, they shouldn't have any possibility of earning anything playing the game anymore once they go corrupt. This is basically the only real consequence of doing it (actual, long jail time is highly unlikely). The punishment has to be so ridiculously stupid and over the top that nobody will dare to dabble in match fixing anymore.
Afreeca was never going to be steadfast in their refusal, especially with a potential boycott, or a KeSPA player ban for their league as a possibility, after seeing the Korean fans response to their refusal they really didn't have a choice.
as an aside, I personally believe you after you've broken the rules like they did, you should have no place in the community whatsoever and should not be able to anything with the game. PERIOD.
On October 23 2015 01:32 True_Spike wrote: I think that's fine.
Punishment for match fixing has too be strict, draconian even. Every player has to understand the risk associated with match fixing; their entire skill set *has* to be rendered completely useless, they shouldn't have any possibility of earning anything playing the game anymore once they go corrupt. This is basically the only real consequence of doing it (actual, long jail time is highly unlikely). The punishment has to be so ridiculously stupid and over the top that nobody will dare to dabble in match fixing anymore.
Let's do that for all criminal offenses. Have a nice world.
On October 23 2015 01:32 True_Spike wrote: I think that's fine.
Punishment for match fixing has too be strict, draconian even. Every player has to understand the risk associated with match fixing; their entire skill set *has* to be rendered completely useless, they shouldn't have any possibility of earning anything playing the game anymore once they go corrupt. This is basically the only real consequence of doing it (actual, long jail time is highly unlikely). The punishment has to be so ridiculously stupid and over the top that nobody will dare to dabble in match fixing anymore.
Let's do that for all criminal offenses. Have a nice world.
Except it's not possible in the real world, so there's very little point debating that. In this case, however, it is, due to KeSPA having the strength and connections it does.
It's not the (criminal) act of illegal betting we care about, it's the impact this behaviour has on our gaming scene, it's very integrity. What's punishable by law should be punished within the scope of law, but it does not mean we can't go the extra mile to further protect what we hold dear (believe it or not, impacting the Starcraft scene in a negative fashion is not a criminal offence!). We don't break their legs and dump them in the ocean. I consider this ban nothing more than a healthy precaution (much like keeping convicted pedophiles away from children; it's just reasonable)
Seems like the Korean Starcraft community is rather united on the ban. Whilst the TL community is rather divided.
Somehow, many are saying or implying that the Korean community's united view is driven by an irrational mob mentality. I think that's uncalled for, culturally insensitive and irrelevant to the whole issue. Is unity a sign of irrationality? Of course not.
Please - agree or disagree with the ban as you may wish, but there is really nothing irrational about both sides of the argument.
On October 23 2015 01:32 True_Spike wrote: I think that's fine.
Punishment for match fixing has too be strict, draconian even. Every player has to understand the risk associated with match fixing; their entire skill set *has* to be rendered completely useless, they shouldn't have any possibility of earning anything playing the game anymore once they go corrupt. This is basically the only real consequence of doing it (actual, long jail time is highly unlikely). The punishment has to be so ridiculously stupid and over the top that nobody will dare to dabble in match fixing anymore.
Let's do that for all criminal offenses. Have a nice world.
Except it's not possible in the real world, so there's very little point debating that. In this case, however, it is, due to KeSPA having the strength and connections it does.
It's not the (criminal) act of illegal betting we care about, it's the impact this behaviour has on our gaming scene, it's very integrity. What's punishable by law should be punished within the scope of law, but it does not mean we can't go the extra mile to further protect what we hold dear (believe it or not, impacting the Starcraft scene in a negative fashion is not a criminal offence!). We don't break their legs and dump them in the ocean. I consider this ban nothing more than a healthy precaution (much like keeping convicted pedophiles away from children; it's just reasonable)
Yeah, it's so much better to hit on people without trying to understand why they did something criminal.
On October 23 2015 01:48 RKC wrote: Seems like the Korean Starcraft community is rather united on the ban. Whilst the TL community is rather divided.
Somehow, many are saying or implying that the Korean community's united view is driven by an irrational mob mentality. I think that's uncalled for, culturally insensitive and irrelevant to the whole issue. Is unity a sign of irrationality? Of course not.
Koreans are the ones watching and supporting them in the first place. Most international starcraft viewers didn't watch brood war or really care about the whole thing. The question isn't emotional at all to most non-Korean fans, it's just academic.
On October 23 2015 01:32 True_Spike wrote: I think that's fine.
Punishment for match fixing has too be strict, draconian even. Every player has to understand the risk associated with match fixing; their entire skill set *has* to be rendered completely useless, they shouldn't have any possibility of earning anything playing the game anymore once they go corrupt. This is basically the only real consequence of doing it (actual, long jail time is highly unlikely). The punishment has to be so ridiculously stupid and over the top that nobody will dare to dabble in match fixing anymore.
Let's do that for all criminal offenses. Have a nice world.
Except it's not possible in the real world, so there's very little point debating that. In this case, however, it is, due to KeSPA having the strength and connections it does.
It's not the (criminal) act of illegal betting we care about, it's the impact this behaviour has on our gaming scene, it's very integrity. What's punishable by law should be punished within the scope of law, but it does not mean we can't go the extra mile to further protect what we hold dear (believe it or not, impacting the Starcraft scene in a negative fashion is not a criminal offence!). We don't break their legs and dump them in the ocean. I consider this ban nothing more than a healthy precaution (much like keeping convicted pedophiles away from children; it's just reasonable)
Yeah, it's so much better to hit on people without trying to understand why they did something criminal.
I'm all for understanding, I really am. In the end, though, their reasons don't change anything. They did so because they earn little? Have tough living conditions? Little future prospects? I'm all for improving on these! Alas,*I* cannot effectively impact those unless I'm part of the value chain , a part of the e-sport business. I *do* hope the business will take the fact that these factors played a major role in their decision to go criminal. However, If they were not happy about being pro-gamers they could just leave and try to get a fucking job. Any job! I can accept that they were too stupid to realize what they were getting into in the first place; everybody makes mistakes, but they have to face the consequences of their poor choices, rather than try to destroy the very thing they were a part of because they are no longer satisfied). Whether or not we stop to think about their reasoning behind this silly decision (which we all should!), the end result is still the same. The damage has been done, had they not been caught they would have most likely continued forever and probably expanded their matchfixing circle, too. They tried to screw the system out of sheer greed and, unfortunately for them, they stepped on a land mine whilst doing so. Boo-hoo.
I've been a part of the SC community for well over a decade now and nothing has ever disturbed me as much as the match fixing scandals we've had. It wasn't getting any better, the issue was getting out of hand. It has to be stopped short and only something ridiculously radical will do the job.
On October 23 2015 01:48 RKC wrote: Seems like the Korean Starcraft community is rather united on the ban. Whilst the TL community is rather divided.
Somehow, many are saying or implying that the Korean community's united view is driven by an irrational mob mentality. I think that's uncalled for, culturally insensitive and irrelevant to the whole issue. Is unity a sign of irrationality? Of course not.
Koreans are the ones watching and supporting them in the first place. Most international starcraft viewers didn't watch brood war or really care about the whole thing. The question isn't emotional at all to most non-Korean fans, it's just academic.
And because Koreans are emotional, hence they are irrational?
Please - the discussions in TL has not been "just academic" by the tone of certain quarters. Some In TL are just as emotional as the Koreans.
(in any event, emotion is neither an absolute indicator of irrationality)
On October 23 2015 01:48 RKC wrote: Seems like the Korean Starcraft community is rather united on the ban. Whilst the TL community is rather divided.
Somehow, many are saying or implying that the Korean community's united view is driven by an irrational mob mentality. I think that's uncalled for, culturally insensitive and irrelevant to the whole issue. Is unity a sign of irrationality? Of course not.
Koreans are the ones watching and supporting them in the first place. Most international starcraft viewers didn't watch brood war or really care about the whole thing. The question isn't emotional at all to most non-Korean fans, it's just academic.
And because Koreans are emotional, hence they are irrational?
Please - the discussions in TL has not been "just academic" by the tone of certain quarters. Some In TL are just as emotional as the Koreans.
No, the international fan responses are academic in the sense that they're applying their ideologies and beliefs to a situation they're pretty much disconnected from. It's more like talking about a theoretical situation. By stating that I'm not making a value judgment about who's right and wrong. A baseball fan from the 80s is probably going to be more invested emotionally talking about Pete Rose than some 20 year old that doesn't really pay attention to baseball. Again, that wouldn't make one side inherently more right or wrong.
On October 22 2015 18:04 opisska wrote: One thing that continuously irritates me about being a SC2 fan is that everything gets decided in Korea, based on their incomprehensible "culture" (which seems to be the general excuse for any weird behaviour east of Istanbul).
Not only lack perspective but insults and generalizes pretty much a third of the world's population.
I guess this is the type of un-moderated Eastern bashing I can expect from TL.
Is it that hard to express opinions without espousing bigoted statements?
EDIT: expect this from younger forums like liquiddota but very disappointing from the long history of quality work from TL.
On October 23 2015 01:48 RKC wrote: Seems like the Korean Starcraft community is rather united on the ban. Whilst the TL community is rather divided.
Somehow, many are saying or implying that the Korean community's united view is driven by an irrational mob mentality. I think that's uncalled for, culturally insensitive and irrelevant to the whole issue. Is unity a sign of irrationality? Of course not.
Koreans are the ones watching and supporting them in the first place. Most international starcraft viewers didn't watch brood war or really care about the whole thing. The question isn't emotional at all to most non-Korean fans, it's just academic.
Woah buddy, explain yourself. Also, how can an international Starcraft viewer not watch Starcraft?
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable.
On October 23 2015 01:48 RKC wrote: Seems like the Korean Starcraft community is rather united on the ban. Whilst the TL community is rather divided.
Somehow, many are saying or implying that the Korean community's united view is driven by an irrational mob mentality. I think that's uncalled for, culturally insensitive and irrelevant to the whole issue. Is unity a sign of irrationality? Of course not.
Koreans are the ones watching and supporting them in the first place. Most international starcraft viewers didn't watch brood war or really care about the whole thing. The question isn't emotional at all to most non-Korean fans, it's just academic.
Woah buddy, explain yourself. Also, how can an international Starcraft viewer not watch Starcraft?
i think he's talking about the current Starcraft viewers. some of the posters definitely seemed like they had zero clue what happened 5 years ago.
On October 23 2015 01:32 True_Spike wrote: I think that's fine.
Punishment for match fixing has too be strict, draconian even. Every player has to understand the risk associated with match fixing; their entire skill set *has* to be rendered completely useless, they shouldn't have any possibility of earning anything playing the game anymore once they go corrupt. This is basically the only real consequence of doing it (actual, long jail time is highly unlikely). The punishment has to be so ridiculously stupid and over the top that nobody will dare to dabble in match fixing anymore.
Although I agree with the decision and some of what you say, if I recall correctly that high punishments do not correlate with low crime numbers.
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable.
i can see why they wouldn't want to be associated. but what exactly are kespa doing to prevent the match fixing happening in the first place? we've still got the absurdly top-heavy payout structures in individual leagues, leaving anything other than the absolute elite of the elite making next to nothing (to be fair, wcs finals are equally ridiculous). proleague's stagnant - skt's the main sponsor so it's not like kespa has been able to attract any new sponsorship interest given they own one of the teams already. i'd be surprised if they can replace prime next season. gstl's gone. there's little to nothing in terms of non-gsl/ssl tournaments that lower tier players can compete in. say for example soulkey was breaking through now instead of five years ago - what's there for him to play in?
sure, kespa can say what they like re: afreeca, but it's a bit two faced to bring down the banhammer re: players that have been stupid enough to get caught, and then ignore the landscape that's causing players to match fix in the first place, and also be happy to brush incredibly likely cases under the rug when they do occur.
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable.
i can see why they wouldn't want to be associated. but what exactly are kespa doing to prevent the match fixing happening in the first place? we've still got the absurdly top-heavy payout structures in individual leagues, leaving anything other than the absolute elite of the elite making next to nothing (to be fair, wcs finals are equally ridiculous). proleague's stagnant - skt's the main sponsor so it's not like kespa has been able to attract any new sponsorship interest given they own one of the teams already. i'd be surprised if they can replace prime next season. gstl's gone. there's little to nothing in terms of non-gsl/ssl tournaments that lower tier players can compete in. say for example soulkey was breaking through now instead of five years ago - what's there for him to play in?
sure, kespa can say what they like re: afreeca, but it's a bit two faced to bring down the banhammer re: players that have been stupid enough to get caught, and then ignore the landscape that's causing players to match fix in the first place, and also be happy to brush incredibly likely cases under the rug when they do occur.
The request to ban the streamers is directly in line with the movement to show that esports is clean of matchfixing and doesn't tolerate it at all. The BW matchfixing was directly responsible for destroying the reputation of the esports industry to the ground and driving away sponsors that didn't want to be associated with tainted image of the scene. It's very difficult to convince your sponsors that the scene is now clean of matchfixing if one of the main tournament organizers is also supporting a culprit streaming happily side-by-side to the very tournament he matchfixed in. The distinction between streaming and competitive gaming is very small for an outsider.
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable.
i can see why they wouldn't want to be associated. but what exactly are kespa doing to prevent the match fixing happening in the first place? we've still got the absurdly top-heavy payout structures in individual leagues, leaving anything other than the absolute elite of the elite making next to nothing (to be fair, wcs finals are equally ridiculous). proleague's stagnant - skt's the main sponsor so it's not like kespa has been able to attract any new sponsorship interest given they own one of the teams already. i'd be surprised if they can replace prime next season. gstl's gone. there's little to nothing in terms of non-gsl/ssl tournaments that lower tier players can compete in. say for example soulkey was breaking through now instead of five years ago - what's there for him to play in?
sure, kespa can say what they like re: afreeca, but it's a bit two faced to bring down the banhammer re: players that have been stupid enough to get caught, and then ignore the landscape that's causing players to match fix in the first place, and also be happy to brush incredibly likely cases under the rug when they do occur.
The request to ban the streamers is directly in line with the movement to show that esports is clean of matchfixing and doesn't tolerate it at all. The BW matchfixing was directly responsible for destroying the reputation of the esports industry to the ground and driving away sponsors that didn't want to be associated with tainted image of the scene. It's very difficult to convince your sponsors that the scene is now clean of matchfixing if one of the main tournament organizers is also supporting a culprit streaming happily side-by-side to the very tournament he matchfixed in. The distinction between streaming and competitive gaming is very small for an outsider.
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable.
i can see why they wouldn't want to be associated. but what exactly are kespa doing to prevent the match fixing happening in the first place? we've still got the absurdly top-heavy payout structures in individual leagues, leaving anything other than the absolute elite of the elite making next to nothing (to be fair, wcs finals are equally ridiculous). proleague's stagnant - skt's the main sponsor so it's not like kespa has been able to attract any new sponsorship interest given they own one of the teams already. i'd be surprised if they can replace prime next season. gstl's gone. there's little to nothing in terms of non-gsl/ssl tournaments that lower tier players can compete in. say for example soulkey was breaking through now instead of five years ago - what's there for him to play in?
sure, kespa can say what they like re: afreeca, but it's a bit two faced to bring down the banhammer re: players that have been stupid enough to get caught, and then ignore the landscape that's causing players to match fix in the first place, and also be happy to brush incredibly likely cases under the rug when they do occur.
The request to ban the streamers is directly in line with the movement to show that esports is clean of matchfixing and doesn't tolerate it at all. The BW matchfixing was directly responsible for destroying the reputation of the esports industry to the ground and driving away sponsors that didn't want to be associated with tainted image of the scene. It's very difficult to convince your sponsors that the scene is now clean of matchfixing if one of the main tournament organizers is also supporting a culprit streaming happily side-by-side to the very tournament he matchfixed in. The distinction between streaming and competitive gaming is very small for an outsider.
do u still believe this crap ? ...
kespa vs blizzard killed bw
match-fixing had much direct impact to ruining the public perception of esports in Korea than Kespa vs Blizzard debacle. The match-fixing scandal was covered on all the prime-time channels and had direct impact on the public image. The main reason MBC Gaming closed down was the negative image towards gaming. No one outside of the gaming community cared about Kespa vs Blizzard.
I really don't approve of this action. Match fixers or not, the internet is a place of freedom and no regulation. And this action has no place on the internet.
On October 23 2015 01:48 RKC wrote: Seems like the Korean Starcraft community is rather united on the ban. Whilst the TL community is rather divided.
Somehow, many are saying or implying that the Korean community's united view is driven by an irrational mob mentality. I think that's uncalled for, culturally insensitive and irrelevant to the whole issue. Is unity a sign of irrationality? Of course not.
Koreans are the ones watching and supporting them in the first place. Most international starcraft viewers didn't watch brood war or really care about the whole thing. The question isn't emotional at all to most non-Korean fans, it's just academic.
Woah buddy, explain yourself. Also, how can an international Starcraft viewer not watch Starcraft?.
The current international audience for StarCraft as an esport grew mostly through SC2 2010 and onwards, not through brood war. Plenty of people are learning about the bw matchfixing for the first time right now.
I totally support what they did here. Matchfixers continuing to stream on their platform while they run the biggest SC2 tournament is like Lance Armstrong being able to advertise biking lessons or training at the Tour de France and make money off of it which is patently ridiculous.
This would all be a moot point if they weren't running the GSL. To continue to even associate with such individuals in any way when they run the freakin GSL would really hurt their credibility.
I guess serving your sentence isnt enough in korea, they've got to engage in vigilante justice and, on top of all the harassment and death threats and social ostracism already, lose basically your last source of income.
You know, completely and utterly crush anyone who makes a mistake. No mercy.
I've heard rumors that it may, in fact, be possible to earn a living in a way that has nothing to do with video games at all. Probably just hearsay, though.
On October 22 2015 22:00 nimdil wrote: GSL and their personal streams are different Afreeca channels.
Yet its the same company giving them a platform.
The Tour de France wouldn't allow advertisements for Lance Armstrong cycling lessons.
For starters TdF waited for court ruling, unlike KeSPA and Afreeca. Second, that's not fair comparison.
Comparisons to TdF aside, at the very least as the new owners and showrunners of the GSL, you know the largest and supposedly most prestigious SC2 tournament around, they shouldn't be associated with matchfixers at all, at least if they want to maintain any degree of credibility at all.
Like I said, if they weren't the new owners of the GSL this would all be a moot point and I'd agree that they shouldn't be banned.
On October 23 2015 06:44 Circumstance wrote: I've heard rumors that it may, in fact, be possible to earn a living in a way that has nothing to do with video games at all. Probably just hearsay, though.
You clearly dont know a thing about korean society if you think these guys, who have forgone education and military service in order to play video games, and then fucked it all up, have much to look forward to in their lives. Savior apparently didnt leave his house for the better part of a year. There going to be destitute losers either way, but this just grounds them down into nothing, all the more.
On October 23 2015 01:48 RKC wrote: Seems like the Korean Starcraft community is rather united on the ban. Whilst the TL community is rather divided.
Somehow, many are saying or implying that the Korean community's united view is driven by an irrational mob mentality. I think that's uncalled for, culturally insensitive and irrelevant to the whole issue. Is unity a sign of irrationality? Of course not.
Koreans are the ones watching and supporting them in the first place. Most international starcraft viewers didn't watch brood war or really care about the whole thing. The question isn't emotional at all to most non-Korean fans, it's just academic.
Woah buddy, explain yourself. Also, how can an international Starcraft viewer not watch Starcraft?.
The current international audience for StarCraft as an esport grew mostly through SC2 2010 and onwards, not through brood war. Plenty of people are learning about the bw matchfixing for the first time right now.
Ty for the reply. I'm always willing to admit when I've read something wrong. :D
On October 23 2015 06:44 Circumstance wrote: I've heard rumors that it may, in fact, be possible to earn a living in a way that has nothing to do with video games at all. Probably just hearsay, though.
You clearly dont know a thing about korean society if you think these guys, who have forgone education and military service in order to play video games, and then fucked it all up, have much to look forward to in their lives. Savior apparently didnt leave his house for the better part of a year. There going to be destitute losers either way, but this just grounds them down into nothing, all the more.
And why? Punishments should fit the crime.
shame culture coupled with modern social media... :/
Yes, there is a violation of personal right here - no one is saying there isn't. The only issue is whether it's justified and proportional to protect the greater good of society.
On proportionality - how deep is the violation anyway? A person being deprived to stream a particular computer game online? Is it the same as being deprived from livelihood absolutely? Some people make it seem like Korean pro-gamers can only play games as their source of livelihood, and are good at nothing else in life. That, to me, is ridiculous. Are they going to play and live on Starcraft for the rest of their lifetime? No. Now is as good of a start as any for the match-fixers to move on to an entirely different game or try something other than computer games. It's called growing up.
On October 23 2015 04:31 BingbingBOPOMOFO wrote: I really don't approve of this action. Match fixers or not, the internet is a place of freedom and no regulation. And this action has no place on the internet.
By this logic, we shouldn't ban cheaters either. They are playing on the internet.
GG no RE matchfixers. Though, this won't solve the core of the problem which could be income inequality between teams competing in the same league.
On October 22 2015 20:56 [Svall]Granis wrote: This is getting way out of hand....soon Kespa dont want them to go to their local corner store to get milk because a progamer is also going to there....like wtf
How it works for people who commits a crime (not all of them)
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, life goes on.
How Kespa wants it to be
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, we will destroy your life.
How you want it to be.
You commit a crime, nothing happens and you get a medal.
Yes it's easy to make silly statements like this. Match fixing and cheaters destroy games. No pity for them. If a pedophile isn't allowed to work with children anymore I wouldn't drop a tear. Same goes for these guys.
Lol you can't be serious. If a pedophile works with children there is a risk he does his crime again. If a matchfixer is allowed to stream there is no such risk because streaming games is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to his crime. He just gets discriminated from other parts of life because of a criminal past. This is not justice, it's revenge.
Well said.
I disagree with this decision.
Especially retroactively punished bw streamers. And no forgiveness for a match-fix that happened 5 years ago, says something. Punishing someone is easy, forgiving them is quite an accomplishment.
Sounds like the are making a policy, but I think it is going too far. Sounds like caving to pressure.
I find myself asking the question, "At what point does the punishment fit the crime?"
On October 23 2015 09:31 ShambhalaWar wrote: I find myself asking the question, "At what point does the punishment fit the crime?"
Jail and a lifetime ban is more than enough.
Lifetime ban from... what?
I posed this question in the other thread and never received a response.
B4 never match-fixed in individual leagues. So... should he only be banned from team leagues? B4 and Yoda never match-fixed outside of Korea. Should they only be banned from Korean events, and not from WCS EU/NA? B4 and Yoda only match-fixed in events that grant WCS points. Should they be allowed to participate in major tournaments? Minor tournaments? Weekly tournaments like Olimoleague? How about streams of LotV's daily tournaments? Any one of those can be match fixed. Any one of those can be cheated in in some other way.
Whenever someone brings up ethics or morality, I wonder if they understand that the line must be drawn somewhere, and no matter where you draw it, that decision will always be arbitrary. There is no ethically "correct" solution.
Some people believe that the justice system exists to punish criminals, other people believe that the justice system exists to rehabilitate criminals. That alone should tell you that we'll never get anywhere useful by prioritizing minute ethical distinctions, when there are other very important considerations on the table. We might as well argue should a criminal receive 9 years in prison, or 10, or 11?
What is useful? Answering the question "should the company that owns GSL actively promote the content of SC2 cheaters, hackers, and match fixers?"
Curiously, I haven't seen a single person saying "yeah, there's nothing wrong with that."
On October 23 2015 06:09 Fliparoni wrote: I totally support what they did here. Matchfixers continuing to stream on their platform while they run the biggest SC2 tournament is like Lance Armstrong being able to advertise biking lessons or training at the Tour de France and make money off of it which is patently ridiculous.
Hey Fliparoni.
Lance Armstrong could do that. It would be patently ridiculous.
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable.
i can see why they wouldn't want to be associated. but what exactly are kespa doing to prevent the match fixing happening in the first place? we've still got the absurdly top-heavy payout structures in individual leagues, leaving anything other than the absolute elite of the elite making next to nothing (to be fair, wcs finals are equally ridiculous). proleague's stagnant - skt's the main sponsor so it's not like kespa has been able to attract any new sponsorship interest given they own one of the teams already. i'd be surprised if they can replace prime next season. gstl's gone. there's little to nothing in terms of non-gsl/ssl tournaments that lower tier players can compete in. say for example soulkey was breaking through now instead of five years ago - what's there for him to play in?
sure, kespa can say what they like re: afreeca, but it's a bit two faced to bring down the banhammer re: players that have been stupid enough to get caught, and then ignore the landscape that's causing players to match fix in the first place, and also be happy to brush incredibly likely cases under the rug when they do occur.
The request to ban the streamers is directly in line with the movement to show that esports is clean of matchfixing and doesn't tolerate it at all. The BW matchfixing was directly responsible for destroying the reputation of the esports industry to the ground and driving away sponsors that didn't want to be associated with tainted image of the scene. It's very difficult to convince your sponsors that the scene is now clean of matchfixing if one of the main tournament organizers is also supporting a culprit streaming happily side-by-side to the very tournament he matchfixed in. The distinction between streaming and competitive gaming is very small for an outsider.
do u still believe this crap ? ...
kespa vs blizzard killed bw
After everything I've seen and learned of in the last week (not just in Korea, but again in my own back yard), I am 100% certain Blizzard only cares about the money and doesn't give a shit about merit. In many ways, it reminds me of what Richard Lewis was talking about when he said, "The good days of eSports will be gone soon." In his interview with Lycan on TLG a few months ago.
On October 23 2015 08:37 RKC wrote: Yes, there is a violation of personal right here - no one is saying there isn't. The only issue is whether it's justified and proportional to protect the greater good of society.
On proportionality - how deep is the violation anyway? A person being deprived to stream a particular computer game online? Is it the same as being deprived from livelihood absolutely? Some people make it seem like Korean pro-gamers can only play games as their source of livelihood, and are good at nothing else in life. That, to me, is ridiculous. Are they going to play and live on Starcraft for the rest of their lifetime? No. Now is as good of a start as any for the match-fixers to move on to an entirely different game or try something other than computer games. It's called growing up.
How is it a violation of personal rights? I'll use the same argument I've seen from those who were rejoicing when they thought Afreeca wasn't going to listen to Kespa. "It is their service, and it is their right to ban or not ban anyone for any reason"
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable.
i can see why they wouldn't want to be associated. but what exactly are kespa doing to prevent the match fixing happening in the first place? we've still got the absurdly top-heavy payout structures in individual leagues, leaving anything other than the absolute elite of the elite making next to nothing (to be fair, wcs finals are equally ridiculous). proleague's stagnant - skt's the main sponsor so it's not like kespa has been able to attract any new sponsorship interest given they own one of the teams already. i'd be surprised if they can replace prime next season. gstl's gone. there's little to nothing in terms of non-gsl/ssl tournaments that lower tier players can compete in. say for example soulkey was breaking through now instead of five years ago - what's there for him to play in?
sure, kespa can say what they like re: afreeca, but it's a bit two faced to bring down the banhammer re: players that have been stupid enough to get caught, and then ignore the landscape that's causing players to match fix in the first place, and also be happy to brush incredibly likely cases under the rug when they do occur.
The request to ban the streamers is directly in line with the movement to show that esports is clean of matchfixing and doesn't tolerate it at all. The BW matchfixing was directly responsible for destroying the reputation of the esports industry to the ground and driving away sponsors that didn't want to be associated with tainted image of the scene. It's very difficult to convince your sponsors that the scene is now clean of matchfixing if one of the main tournament organizers is also supporting a culprit streaming happily side-by-side to the very tournament he matchfixed in. The distinction between streaming and competitive gaming is very small for an outsider.
do u still believe this crap ? ...
kespa vs blizzard killed bw
After everything I've seen and learned of in the last week (not just in Korea, but again in my own back yard), I am 100% certain Blizzard only cares about the money and doesn't give a shit about merit. In many ways, it reminds me of what Richard Lewis was talking about when he said, "The good days of eSports will be gone soon." In his interview with Lycan on TLG a few months ago.
Richard Lewis is great but the guy's the eternal pessimist. How often has he "threatened" to quit, he just did recently, and a while ago he wrote an article that made a bunch of dumb gamers lose their shit and he said he considered quitting. More recently he was completely shaken by a death threat or something, and said something about how the gaming scene is toxic and he should leave it. Richard Lewis is the embodiment of mood swings, and when he's feeling bad, you'll get doomsday predictions from him.
eSports are very clearly trending up with games like LoL (sigh) and CSGO reaching levels never seen before, and Blizzard missed the train.
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable.
i can see why they wouldn't want to be associated. but what exactly are kespa doing to prevent the match fixing happening in the first place? we've still got the absurdly top-heavy payout structures in individual leagues, leaving anything other than the absolute elite of the elite making next to nothing (to be fair, wcs finals are equally ridiculous). proleague's stagnant - skt's the main sponsor so it's not like kespa has been able to attract any new sponsorship interest given they own one of the teams already. i'd be surprised if they can replace prime next season. gstl's gone. there's little to nothing in terms of non-gsl/ssl tournaments that lower tier players can compete in. say for example soulkey was breaking through now instead of five years ago - what's there for him to play in?
sure, kespa can say what they like re: afreeca, but it's a bit two faced to bring down the banhammer re: players that have been stupid enough to get caught, and then ignore the landscape that's causing players to match fix in the first place, and also be happy to brush incredibly likely cases under the rug when they do occur.
The request to ban the streamers is directly in line with the movement to show that esports is clean of matchfixing and doesn't tolerate it at all. The BW matchfixing was directly responsible for destroying the reputation of the esports industry to the ground and driving away sponsors that didn't want to be associated with tainted image of the scene. It's very difficult to convince your sponsors that the scene is now clean of matchfixing if one of the main tournament organizers is also supporting a culprit streaming happily side-by-side to the very tournament he matchfixed in. The distinction between streaming and competitive gaming is very small for an outsider.
do u still believe this crap ? ...
kespa vs blizzard killed bw
After everything I've seen and learned of in the last week (not just in Korea, but again in my own back yard), I am 100% certain Blizzard only cares about the money and doesn't give a shit about merit. In many ways, it reminds me of what Richard Lewis was talking about when he said, "The good days of eSports will be gone soon." In his interview with Lycan on TLG a few months ago.
Richard Lewis is great but the guy's the eternal pessimist. How often has he "threatened" to quit, he just did recently, and a while ago he wrote an article that made a bunch of dumb gamers lose their shit and he said he considered quitting. More recently he was completely shaken by a death threat or something, and said something about how the gaming scene is toxic and he should leave it. Richard Lewis is the embodiment of mood swings, and when he's feeling bad, you'll get doomsday predictions from him.
eSports are very clearly trending up with games like LoL (sigh) and CSGO reaching levels never seen before, and Blizzard missed the train.
There's another part I left out. He said the direction of where eSports is going, like big org who are in charge of tournaments are going to start charging for premium content.
What I'm telling you now is that they are starting to charge for premium content before it is even created with what I heard the other day.
Both organisations are high-profile businesses that have the responsibility of hosting incredibly prestigious tournaments for a specific discipline (SC2 and cycling in these cases). People who have undermined the integrity of the competition have been banned from said tournaments.
One of these two was prepared to willingly allow said people to continue plying the trade in the discipline after being caught. And, indeed, with the potential to profit off it through them. I argue that this is patently ridiculous and completely inappropriate both morally and from the perspective of a healthy scene for the competition in question.
Seems like a perfectly good analogy to me.
On October 23 2015 10:28 pure.Wasted wrote: What is useful? Answering the question "should the company that owns GSL actively promote the content of SC2 cheaters, hackers, and match fixers?"
Curiously, I haven't seen a single person saying "yeah, there's nothing wrong with that."
I'd like to see some people actually start saying that before posting from now on to be honest. None of this slippery slope nonsense like "should they be banned from buying broccoli then?!?!?". A simple statement that they find no problem with cheaters being actively promoted alongside the GSL.
On October 23 2015 09:31 ShambhalaWar wrote: I find myself asking the question, "At what point does the punishment fit the crime?"
Jail and a lifetime ban is more than enough.
Lifetime ban from... what?
I posed this question in the other thread and never received a response.
B4 never match-fixed in individual leagues. So... should he only be banned from team leagues? B4 and Yoda never match-fixed outside of Korea. Should they only be banned from Korean events, and not from WCS EU/NA? B4 and Yoda only match-fixed in events that grant WCS points. Should they be allowed to participate in major tournaments? Minor tournaments? Weekly tournaments like Olimoleague? How about streams of LotV's daily tournaments? Any one of those can be match fixed. Any one of those can be cheated in in some other way.
Whenever someone brings up ethics or morality, I wonder if they understand that the line must be drawn somewhere, and no matter where you draw it, that decision will always be arbitrary. There is no ethically "correct" solution.
Some people believe that the justice system exists to punish criminals, other people believe that the justice system exists to rehabilitate criminals. That alone should tell you that we'll never get anywhere useful by prioritizing minute ethical distinctions, when there are other very important considerations on the table. We might as well argue should a criminal receive 9 years in prison, or 10, or 11?
What is useful? Answering the question "should the company that owns GSL actively promote the content of SC2 cheaters, hackers, and match fixers?"
Curiously, I haven't seen a single person saying "yeah, there's nothing wrong with that."
The received a lifetime ban from competitive play, and jail time. I assume sentencing will happen eventually, keep in mind the ban occurred before anyone was actually convicted, I think that's also pretty fucked up.
My comment was that the justice system in Korea will punish them, kespa taking away streaming rights is in excess of the punishment of lifetime ban from competition. Like banning the bw streamer now, I think its uncalled for.
On a side note, the department of "corrections" is a misnomer. There is nothing corrective about it, it's purely punishment (that is changing in a small way). Jail traumatizes everyone involved and therefore increases their chance of committing more crimes upon release.
But we do have punishments for crime and hopefully we can agree some are excessive. I've state my point plenty on this subject, ima try and step away now lol. See if I have the strength.
On October 23 2015 08:37 RKC wrote: Yes, there is a violation of personal right here - no one is saying there isn't. The only issue is whether it's justified and proportional to protect the greater good of society.
On proportionality - how deep is the violation anyway? A person being deprived to stream a particular computer game online? Is it the same as being deprived from livelihood absolutely? Some people make it seem like Korean pro-gamers can only play games as their source of livelihood, and are good at nothing else in life. That, to me, is ridiculous. Are they going to play and live on Starcraft for the rest of their lifetime? No. Now is as good of a start as any for the match-fixers to move on to an entirely different game or try something other than computer games. It's called growing up.
How is it a violation of personal rights? I'll use the same argument I've seen from those who were rejoicing when they thought Afreeca wasn't going to listen to Kespa. "It is their service, and it is their right to ban or not ban anyone for any reason"
I don't mean 'personal right' as in 'fundamental right', of course. I'm just saying that for a private enterprise which offers public or quasi-public service i.e. a service that is available to the public at large (e.g. booking an airline ticket, uploading videos on Youtube, signing up for Facebook), an individual usually feels a sense of legitimate entitlement and expectation to use the service freely and the private enterprise would want individuals to feel that way too. It is wholly within the right of such private enterprises to ban anyone without reason, of course - but they usually set down policies and rules, and are expected to follow them out of commercial good sense, if not ethics.
I'm just saying that the issue is whether Afreeca, a private enterprise, was justified and acting proportionally in banning match-fixers to stream Starcraft to protect the greater good of the StarCraft professional gaming community.
This is not a constitutional or fundamental liberties debate (although there may be some room to make it one, as in governments should not allow private enterprise to blatantly discriminate people - e.g. ultra-Conservative bakers in US refusing to serve gay couples - but let's not go there).
(Maybe I should just shut up here. Sometimes, I wonder whether it's worth the effort trying to drift to the centre to pull both sides together. I just end up getting attacked from left and right. No wonder in US and EU politics these days, it doesn't pay to stay at the centre )
So basically South Koreans take their discipline and sense of honor and morality to extreme levels, and Afreeca caved to that. Remind me never to move to South Korea.
On October 23 2015 12:56 Doodsmack wrote: So basically South Koreans take their discipline and sense of honor and morality to extreme levels, and Afreeca caved to that. Remind me never to move to South Korea.
Thanks
Did you know that if you commit a felony in the US, you can never ever become a police officer?
Did you know that if a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, s/he can never ever work as a government employee in any capacity?
Just a friendly reminder that you may need to move out of the United States.
edit: to be perfectly clear, I'm not bashing America, I'm bashing your shoddy nationalistic "argument."
i am pretty pleases to see so many people being strictly against cheaters etc, back in the day especially with foreigners who cheated it was always sad to see that they still got a lot going for them on tl..
On October 23 2015 08:37 RKC wrote: Yes, there is a violation of personal right here - no one is saying there isn't. The only issue is whether it's justified and proportional to protect the greater good of society.
On proportionality - how deep is the violation anyway? A person being deprived to stream a particular computer game online? Is it the same as being deprived from livelihood absolutely? Some people make it seem like Korean pro-gamers can only play games as their source of livelihood, and are good at nothing else in life. That, to me, is ridiculous. Are they going to play and live on Starcraft for the rest of their lifetime? No. Now is as good of a start as any for the match-fixers to move on to an entirely different game or try something other than computer games. It's called growing up.
How is it a violation of personal rights? I'll use the same argument I've seen from those who were rejoicing when they thought Afreeca wasn't going to listen to Kespa. "It is their service, and it is their right to ban or not ban anyone for any reason"
I don't mean 'personal right' as in 'fundamental right', of course. I'm just saying that for a private enterprise which offers public or quasi-public service i.e. a service that is available to the public at large (e.g. booking an airline ticket, uploading videos on Youtube, signing up for Facebook), an individual usually feels a sense of legitimate entitlement and expectation to use the service freely and the private enterprise would want individuals to feel that way too. It is wholly within the right of such private enterprises to ban anyone without reason, of course - but they usually set down policies and rules, and are expected to follow them out of commercial good sense, if not ethics.
I'm just saying that the issue is whether Afreeca, a private enterprise, was justified and acting proportionally in banning match-fixers to stream Starcraft to protect the greater good of the StarCraft professional gaming community.
This is not a constitutional or fundamental liberties debate (although there may be some room to make it one, as in governments should not allow private enterprise to blatantly discriminate people - e.g. ultra-Conservative bakers in US refusing to serve gay couples - but let's not go there).
This is pretty much the case, yes.
I don't see it personally as a big bone to pick with Afreeca as an organization; it's understandable that as an organization you wouldn't want to be associate with match fixing, particularly those using your platform for revenue or promotion in the general sense.
Granted of course, it should go no further than this and the legal penalties they pay. I think the notion that the individuals should be banned by blizzard in playing the game is absurd
Nobody is owed the ability to make money from a game. It isn't a right. If these cheaters didn't want to deal with the consequences of being cheaters, they shouldn't have cheated. There's a reason nobody will offer Pete Rose a job as a baseball analyst or anything else of that nature. He got involved with gambling, he broke the ethics code, and he is therefore forced to be at arms length from anything related to professional baseball. Period.
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable.
i can see why they wouldn't want to be associated. but what exactly are kespa doing to prevent the match fixing happening in the first place? we've still got the absurdly top-heavy payout structures in individual leagues, leaving anything other than the absolute elite of the elite making next to nothing (to be fair, wcs finals are equally ridiculous). proleague's stagnant - skt's the main sponsor so it's not like kespa has been able to attract any new sponsorship interest given they own one of the teams already. i'd be surprised if they can replace prime next season. gstl's gone. there's little to nothing in terms of non-gsl/ssl tournaments that lower tier players can compete in. say for example soulkey was breaking through now instead of five years ago - what's there for him to play in?
sure, kespa can say what they like re: afreeca, but it's a bit two faced to bring down the banhammer re: players that have been stupid enough to get caught, and then ignore the landscape that's causing players to match fix in the first place, and also be happy to brush incredibly likely cases under the rug when they do occur.
The request to ban the streamers is directly in line with the movement to show that esports is clean of matchfixing and doesn't tolerate it at all. The BW matchfixing was directly responsible for destroying the reputation of the esports industry to the ground and driving away sponsors that didn't want to be associated with tainted image of the scene. It's very difficult to convince your sponsors that the scene is now clean of matchfixing if one of the main tournament organizers is also supporting a culprit streaming happily side-by-side to the very tournament he matchfixed in. The distinction between streaming and competitive gaming is very small for an outsider.
do u still believe this crap ? ...
kespa vs blizzard killed bw
After everything I've seen and learned of in the last week (not just in Korea, but again in my own back yard), I am 100% certain Blizzard only cares about the money and doesn't give a shit about merit. In many ways, it reminds me of what Richard Lewis was talking about when he said, "The good days of eSports will be gone soon." In his interview with Lycan on TLG a few months ago.
Richard Lewis is great but the guy's the eternal pessimist. How often has he "threatened" to quit, he just did recently, and a while ago he wrote an article that made a bunch of dumb gamers lose their shit and he said he considered quitting. More recently he was completely shaken by a death threat or something, and said something about how the gaming scene is toxic and he should leave it. Richard Lewis is the embodiment of mood swings, and when he's feeling bad, you'll get doomsday predictions from him.
eSports are very clearly trending up with games like LoL (sigh) and CSGO reaching levels never seen before, and Blizzard missed the train.
I don't know what Richard Lewis said, but for me personally the good days of eSports are going to be over soon. After SC2 is out of the picture (hopefully at least another 5-6 years) I'm not sure if we'll ever get a big hardcore 1v1 eSport again. Big publishers are going to want to greenlight eSports that are team games and have mass appeal. Future eSports are going to have their gameplay designed around skins, microtransactions and frequent content updates.
This is stupid. Why was such a huge deal made about match fixing in the first place. I know gambling is illegal in Korea, but this is ridicullous. You'd be hard pressed to find a sport that isn't plagued with match fixing even now. It's just a part of professional sports. Is it right? Probably not. Is it the armageddon when it happens? No.
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable.
i can see why they wouldn't want to be associated. but what exactly are kespa doing to prevent the match fixing happening in the first place? we've still got the absurdly top-heavy payout structures in individual leagues, leaving anything other than the absolute elite of the elite making next to nothing (to be fair, wcs finals are equally ridiculous). proleague's stagnant - skt's the main sponsor so it's not like kespa has been able to attract any new sponsorship interest given they own one of the teams already. i'd be surprised if they can replace prime next season. gstl's gone. there's little to nothing in terms of non-gsl/ssl tournaments that lower tier players can compete in. say for example soulkey was breaking through now instead of five years ago - what's there for him to play in?
sure, kespa can say what they like re: afreeca, but it's a bit two faced to bring down the banhammer re: players that have been stupid enough to get caught, and then ignore the landscape that's causing players to match fix in the first place, and also be happy to brush incredibly likely cases under the rug when they do occur.
The request to ban the streamers is directly in line with the movement to show that esports is clean of matchfixing and doesn't tolerate it at all. The BW matchfixing was directly responsible for destroying the reputation of the esports industry to the ground and driving away sponsors that didn't want to be associated with tainted image of the scene. It's very difficult to convince your sponsors that the scene is now clean of matchfixing if one of the main tournament organizers is also supporting a culprit streaming happily side-by-side to the very tournament he matchfixed in. The distinction between streaming and competitive gaming is very small for an outsider.
do u still believe this crap ? ...
kespa vs blizzard killed bw
After everything I've seen and learned of in the last week (not just in Korea, but again in my own back yard), I am 100% certain Blizzard only cares about the money and doesn't give a shit about merit. In many ways, it reminds me of what Richard Lewis was talking about when he said, "The good days of eSports will be gone soon." In his interview with Lycan on TLG a few months ago.
Richard Lewis is great but the guy's the eternal pessimist. How often has he "threatened" to quit, he just did recently, and a while ago he wrote an article that made a bunch of dumb gamers lose their shit and he said he considered quitting. More recently he was completely shaken by a death threat or something, and said something about how the gaming scene is toxic and he should leave it. Richard Lewis is the embodiment of mood swings, and when he's feeling bad, you'll get doomsday predictions from him.
eSports are very clearly trending up with games like LoL (sigh) and CSGO reaching levels never seen before, and Blizzard missed the train.
I don't know what Richard Lewis said, but for me personally the good days of eSports are going to be over soon. After SC2 is out of the picture (hopefully at least another 5-6 years) I'm not sure if we'll ever get a big hardcore 1v1 eSport again. Big publishers are going to want to greenlight eSports that are team games and have mass appeal. Future eSports are going to have their gameplay designed around skins, microtransactions and frequent content updates.
For me too I'm afraid. I can watch some Street Fighter and maybe some Hearthstone sometimes but nothing compares to StarCraft/ RTS as an esport. Let's hope it ends soon™ rather than soon.
On October 22 2015 22:00 nimdil wrote: GSL and their personal streams are different Afreeca channels.
Yet its the same company giving them a platform.
The Tour de France wouldn't allow advertisements for Lance Armstrong cycling lessons.
For starters TdF waited for court ruling, unlike KeSPA and Afreeca. Second, that's not fair comparison.
Comparisons to TdF aside, at the very least as the new owners and showrunners of the GSL, you know the largest and supposedly most prestigious SC2 tournament around, they shouldn't be associated with matchfixers at all, at least if they want to maintain any degree of credibility at all.
Like I said, if they weren't the new owners of the GSL this would all be a moot point and I'd agree that they shouldn't be banned.
People are referencing this quote so:
1) The accussed match fixers are NOT match fixers yet. There' no court ruling, the trial apparently didn't start yet. They were arrested but that doesn't mean they are all guilty. There was a report indicating their fellony and KeSPA immediately banned them without any hearing. That's just wrong.
2) Lance Armstrong advertising on TdF and match fixers streaming on Afreeca which also streams GSL are 2 different things. If match fixers streams were broadcasted in the same channel as GSL during GSL downtime, it would be comparable. Explanation TdF is run by Amaury Sport Organisation which in turn is owned by Amaury Group. They also own le Parisien, a newspaper. This newspaper has internet edition (not surprising) with their own video content not surprising) and look: here is interview with Lance Armstrong http://videos.leparisien.fr/video/lance-armstrong-jalabert-est-la-hinault-est-la-pourquoi-pas-moi-16-07-2015-x2y9fc6 on a bike, cycling an all in sports channel.
This is perfect comparison. Lance Armstrong cycling is streamed on a platform owned by owners of the most prestigious cycling event in the world which he fucked up hard.
On October 22 2015 22:00 nimdil wrote: GSL and their personal streams are different Afreeca channels.
Yet its the same company giving them a platform.
The Tour de France wouldn't allow advertisements for Lance Armstrong cycling lessons.
For starters TdF waited for court ruling, unlike KeSPA and Afreeca. Second, that's not fair comparison.
Comparisons to TdF aside, at the very least as the new owners and showrunners of the GSL, you know the largest and supposedly most prestigious SC2 tournament around, they shouldn't be associated with matchfixers at all, at least if they want to maintain any degree of credibility at all.
Like I said, if they weren't the new owners of the GSL this would all be a moot point and I'd agree that they shouldn't be banned.
People are referencing this quote so:
1) The accussed match fixers are NOT match fixers yet. There' no court ruling, the trial apparently didn't start yet. They were arrested but that doesn't mean they are all guilty. There was a report indicating their fellony and KeSPA immediately banned them without any hearing. That's just wrong.
2) Lance Armstrong advertising on TdF and match fixers streaming on Afreeca which also streams GSL are 2 different things. If match fixers streams were broadcasted in the same channel as GSL during GSL downtime, it would be comparable. Explanation TdF is run by Amaury Sport Organisation which in turn is owned by Amaury Group. They also own le Parisien, a newspaper. This newspaper has internet edition (not surprising) with their own video content not surprising) and look: here is interview with Lance Armstrong http://videos.leparisien.fr/video/lance-armstrong-jalabert-est-la-hinault-est-la-pourquoi-pas-moi-16-07-2015-x2y9fc6 on a bike, cycling an all in sports channel.
This is perfect comparison. Lance Armstrong cycling is streamed on a platform owned by owners of the most prestigious cycling event in the world which he fucked up hard.
That doesn't make it right (do i need to bold now ?). I don't understand why this guy can talk about cyclism anymore.
On October 23 2015 13:34 Heyoka wrote: can we not make this a nationalistic thing
I know right? That's what I've been trying to say - disagree with the ban as you will, but please don't insinuate that the Korean Starcraft community (or worse, its citizens as a whole) is a mindless mob blinded by emotions and driven by irrationality.
This Lance Armstrong comparison is ridiculous. What Afreeca have done is the equivalent of Armstrong not being able to sell magic beans on QVC because that channel happens to be in the same TV package that I get Eurosport from.
On October 22 2015 22:00 nimdil wrote: GSL and their personal streams are different Afreeca channels.
Yet its the same company giving them a platform.
The Tour de France wouldn't allow advertisements for Lance Armstrong cycling lessons.
For starters TdF waited for court ruling, unlike KeSPA and Afreeca. Second, that's not fair comparison.
Comparisons to TdF aside, at the very least as the new owners and showrunners of the GSL, you know the largest and supposedly most prestigious SC2 tournament around, they shouldn't be associated with matchfixers at all, at least if they want to maintain any degree of credibility at all.
Like I said, if they weren't the new owners of the GSL this would all be a moot point and I'd agree that they shouldn't be banned.
People are referencing this quote so:
1) The accussed match fixers are NOT match fixers yet. There' no court ruling, the trial apparently didn't start yet. They were arrested but that doesn't mean they are all guilty. There was a report indicating their fellony and KeSPA immediately banned them without any hearing. That's just wrong.
2) Lance Armstrong advertising on TdF and match fixers streaming on Afreeca which also streams GSL are 2 different things. If match fixers streams were broadcasted in the same channel as GSL during GSL downtime, it would be comparable. Explanation TdF is run by Amaury Sport Organisation which in turn is owned by Amaury Group. They also own le Parisien, a newspaper. This newspaper has internet edition (not surprising) with their own video content not surprising) and look: here is interview with Lance Armstrong http://videos.leparisien.fr/video/lance-armstrong-jalabert-est-la-hinault-est-la-pourquoi-pas-moi-16-07-2015-x2y9fc6 on a bike, cycling an all in sports channel.
This is perfect comparison. Lance Armstrong cycling is streamed on a platform owned by owners of the most prestigious cycling event in the world which he fucked up hard.
That doesn't make it right (do i need to bold now ?). I don't understand why this guy can talk about cyclism anymore.
To be fair I don't think he should be invited to the press at all for any reason (with possible exception to "how is it to live on transfusions and EPO"), much like people shouldn't want to watch Yoda's (assuming he will be find guilty) or sAviOr's streams. That doesn't really justify them being banned for ability to try to be watched/seen/cycling outside professional fedearations.
On October 23 2015 15:44 Qikz wrote: This is stupid. Why was such a huge deal made about match fixing in the first place. I know gambling is illegal in Korea, but this is ridicullous. You'd be hard pressed to find a sport that isn't plagued with match fixing even now. It's just a part of professional sports. Is it right? Probably not. Is it the armageddon when it happens? No.
yeh I agree. Even in football, the biggest sport in the world, a lot of match fixing goes on. In the football thread on TL Stealthblue posted an article about match fixing in El Classico. That is one of the biggest matches there is.
On October 23 2015 18:56 sixfour wrote: This Lance Armstrong comparison is ridiculous. What Afreeca have done is the equivalent of Armstrong not being able to sell magic beans on QVC because that channel happens to be in the same TV package that I get Eurosport from.
Yes, because selling magic beans on QVC is completely equal to using the audience that remained from the hard work of people left in the scene after almost causing the end of it. Completely the same.
Seriously you guys need to start making better comparisons, because almost none of them makes sense whatsoever.
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable.
i can see why they wouldn't want to be associated. but what exactly are kespa doing to prevent the match fixing happening in the first place? we've still got the absurdly top-heavy payout structures in individual leagues, leaving anything other than the absolute elite of the elite making next to nothing (to be fair, wcs finals are equally ridiculous). proleague's stagnant - skt's the main sponsor so it's not like kespa has been able to attract any new sponsorship interest given they own one of the teams already. i'd be surprised if they can replace prime next season. gstl's gone. there's little to nothing in terms of non-gsl/ssl tournaments that lower tier players can compete in. say for example soulkey was breaking through now instead of five years ago - what's there for him to play in?
sure, kespa can say what they like re: afreeca, but it's a bit two faced to bring down the banhammer re: players that have been stupid enough to get caught, and then ignore the landscape that's causing players to match fix in the first place, and also be happy to brush incredibly likely cases under the rug when they do occur.
The request to ban the streamers is directly in line with the movement to show that esports is clean of matchfixing and doesn't tolerate it at all. The BW matchfixing was directly responsible for destroying the reputation of the esports industry to the ground and driving away sponsors that didn't want to be associated with tainted image of the scene. It's very difficult to convince your sponsors that the scene is now clean of matchfixing if one of the main tournament organizers is also supporting a culprit streaming happily side-by-side to the very tournament he matchfixed in. The distinction between streaming and competitive gaming is very small for an outsider.
do u still believe this crap ? ...
kespa vs blizzard killed bw
After everything I've seen and learned of in the last week (not just in Korea, but again in my own back yard), I am 100% certain Blizzard only cares about the money and doesn't give a shit about merit. In many ways, it reminds me of what Richard Lewis was talking about when he said, "The good days of eSports will be gone soon." In his interview with Lycan on TLG a few months ago.
Richard Lewis is great but the guy's the eternal pessimist. How often has he "threatened" to quit, he just did recently, and a while ago he wrote an article that made a bunch of dumb gamers lose their shit and he said he considered quitting. More recently he was completely shaken by a death threat or something, and said something about how the gaming scene is toxic and he should leave it. Richard Lewis is the embodiment of mood swings, and when he's feeling bad, you'll get doomsday predictions from him.
eSports are very clearly trending up with games like LoL (sigh) and CSGO reaching levels never seen before, and Blizzard missed the train.
I don't know what Richard Lewis said, but for me personally the good days of eSports are going to be over soon. After SC2 is out of the picture (hopefully at least another 5-6 years) I'm not sure if we'll ever get a big hardcore 1v1 eSport again. Big publishers are going to want to greenlight eSports that are team games and have mass appeal. Future eSports are going to have their gameplay designed around skins, microtransactions and frequent content updates.
I mean, it doesn't matter what eSports are "for you". I couldn't care less about LoL, I even loathe it a little, same for DOTA2, but it's still a sign that eSports are doing great internationally. Barring some huge crash, money is here.
Korea had a stable scene, now the entire world does, with more money, better production than ever before. Hell, tournaments are generally able to pay players now. As sad as it may be to lose SC2, gotta realize that the scene in general is thriving. Granted, there are shortcomings and problems, but nothing that would indicate imminent doom to me.
On October 23 2015 12:56 Doodsmack wrote: So basically South Koreans take their discipline and sense of honor and morality to extreme levels, and Afreeca caved to that. Remind me never to move to South Korea.
Thanks
LMFAO Highly doubt South Korea will want anything to do with you. Seriously, what makes you think that South Korea wants you in anyway?
These children think that South Korea owes them something because they watch eSports. SMH
On October 23 2015 15:44 Qikz wrote: This is stupid. Why was such a huge deal made about match fixing in the first place. I know gambling is illegal in Korea, but this is ridicullous. You'd be hard pressed to find a sport that isn't plagued with match fixing even now. It's just a part of professional sports. Is it right? Probably not. Is it the armageddon when it happens? No.
Probably because this sport is actually relies on good will of the sponsors in the country it's most popular in to stay afloat? A matchfixing scandal in the NBA wouldn't cause half the teams to suddenly drop out of existence with in the year because of how much popularity and money is already in the sport.
On October 23 2015 11:21 mishimaBeef wrote: we should boycott kespa because they suck
who else would disqualify a player for typing "pp" instead of "ppp" before pausing...
Guys can we give this the attention it deserves?
You can get disqualified in Golf for making a mistake writing the score yourself (even though there are professional score keepers watching everybody) even if you immediately realize the mistake. There's plenty of stupid DQ rules in sports.
esports and streaming go hand in hand. Would we have the esports scene we have if not for the explosion of twitch? And would we have twitch if not for the esports? + Show Spoiler +
and by "twitch" I mean "streaming" and by "esports" I mean "competitive gaming" - yes, both existed prior to 2010 but both saw major (comparatively linear) growth since
Match-fixing FUNDAMENTALLY corrupts the efforts of those trying to arrange competition. The whole point of sport ('e' or otherwise) is to compete.
If Lance Armstrong had a show on ESPN prior to getting caught as a cheater he would have been fired / taken off the air and ESPN would have been apologizing and probably suing him!
If the legal system in SK finds these people innocent we can all throw flaming pitchforks at KeSPA until they're unbanned (unless we're talking about O.J. "innocent").
On October 23 2015 11:21 mishimaBeef wrote: we should boycott kespa because they suck
who else would disqualify a player for typing "pp" instead of "ppp" before pausing...
Guys can we give this the attention it deserves?
You can get disqualified in Golf for making a mistake writing the score yourself (even though there are professional score keepers watching everybody) even if you immediately realize the mistake. There's plenty of stupid DQ rules in sports.
On October 23 2015 11:21 mishimaBeef wrote: we should boycott kespa because they suck
who else would disqualify a player for typing "pp" instead of "ppp" before pausing...
Guys can we give this the attention it deserves?
You can get disqualified in Golf for making a mistake writing the score yourself (even though there are professional score keepers watching everybody) even if you immediately realize the mistake. There's plenty of stupid DQ rules in sports.
In golf you aren't pressed for milliseconds.
So you are a progamer who can press thousands upon thousands of keys every minute with precision and accuracy and can't press 4 keys in a sequence with in a relatively lenient time frame? What's the excuse there then?
On October 23 2015 11:21 mishimaBeef wrote: we should boycott kespa because they suck
who else would disqualify a player for typing "pp" instead of "ppp" before pausing...
Guys can we give this the attention it deserves?
You can get disqualified in Golf for making a mistake writing the score yourself (even though there are professional score keepers watching everybody) even if you immediately realize the mistake. There's plenty of stupid DQ rules in sports.
In golf you aren't pressed for milliseconds.
Kespa is the only organization that has managed to keep a team league together for Starcraft for 15 years. You don't have to agree with everything they do, but the hate really is unwarranted. But sure, boycott the one group that is actually successful and profitable at providing the best SC content in the world.
The pp ruling was harsh but it's the rules. I mean remember RuBy vs FlaSh where FlaSh won the game because RuBy accidentally exited before the game started. And it's not like it was revised to recognize the times when keyboards go haywire.
On October 23 2015 11:21 mishimaBeef wrote: we should boycott kespa because they suck
who else would disqualify a player for typing "pp" instead of "ppp" before pausing...
Guys can we give this the attention it deserves?
You can get disqualified in Golf for making a mistake writing the score yourself (even though there are professional score keepers watching everybody) even if you immediately realize the mistake. There's plenty of stupid DQ rules in sports.
In golf you aren't pressed for milliseconds.
Kespa is the only organization that has managed to keep a team league together for Starcraft for 15 years. You don't have to agree with everything they do, but the hate really is unwarranted. But sure, boycott the one group that is actually successful and profitable at providing the best SC content in the world.
Proleague is excellent product but KeSPA's specific rulings frequently is on a different level and in sad way.
Of course there's the fact that international fans are at best secondary for them so will rule based on Korean market and community.
On October 23 2015 11:21 mishimaBeef wrote: we should boycott kespa because they suck
who else would disqualify a player for typing "pp" instead of "ppp" before pausing...
Guys can we give this the attention it deserves?
You can get disqualified in Golf for making a mistake writing the score yourself (even though there are professional score keepers watching everybody) even if you immediately realize the mistake. There's plenty of stupid DQ rules in sports.
I like that argument. It should have some sort of latin logical fallacy name specific to it. "Something is worse therefore it is acceptable."
On October 23 2015 11:21 mishimaBeef wrote: we should boycott kespa because they suck
who else would disqualify a player for typing "pp" instead of "ppp" before pausing...
Guys can we give this the attention it deserves?
You can get disqualified in Golf for making a mistake writing the score yourself (even though there are professional score keepers watching everybody) even if you immediately realize the mistake. There's plenty of stupid DQ rules in sports.
I like that argument. It should have some sort of latin logical fallacy name specific to it. "Something is worse therefore it is acceptable."
The question was "who else". The answer is a shit tonne of other professional sports organizations. Or am I just supposed to sarcastically snark and shit over the one organization holding the korean scene together in a circle jerk?
On October 23 2015 11:21 mishimaBeef wrote: we should boycott kespa because they suck
who else would disqualify a player for typing "pp" instead of "ppp" before pausing...
Guys can we give this the attention it deserves?
You can get disqualified in Golf for making a mistake writing the score yourself (even though there are professional score keepers watching everybody) even if you immediately realize the mistake. There's plenty of stupid DQ rules in sports.
I like that argument. It should have some sort of latin logical fallacy name specific to it. "Something is worse therefore it is acceptable."
The question was "who else". The answer is a shit tonne of other professional sports organizations. Or am I just supposed to sarcastically snark and shit over the one organization holding the korean scene together in a circle jerk?
Well it was a rhetorical question. He was not really asking who else does it, because no one else does anything remotely close to dq'ing people for "ppp", and you have to go quite far away from eSports to find something as crazy, and even then it's an absolutely stupid rule which at least has some basis in rationality, it's to prevent people from cheating. Only KESPA is nuts enough to dq a player for a typo. That shit is insane.
And no you're not supposed to join the alleged circlejerk, but wow golf? Nice try...
On October 24 2015 04:30 mishimaBeef wrote: is Kespa keeping the scene together or do they strive to monopolize the scene that they already have a strangle hold on?
i may not be the most informed... but i get the impression Kespa needs a large dose of Don't be Evil.
What was all that fuss about kespa players can't play in GSL until we allow them to. Oh kespa thanks for allowing!
Perhaps the sole reason KeSPA kept the scene together was because they kind of monopolized it. And to be fair - is it more of a monopoly than i.e. NHL?
It seems many people here think Kespa tried to boycott GSl, but that's wrong. Kespa never said they were going to boycott . There was only one article that boycotting GSL was discussed as far as I know, and it only said that some of players and coaches were considering boycotting GSL. You may say that Kespa manipulated them to express such idea from behind, but ever since Savior started his first streaming, a lot of players, ex-players, and coaches expressed how unpleasant they felt that the person who ruined the gaming scene making money with gaming.
You may not agree with those people, but that't majority of progaming scene, and regardless that's right or wrong, I think it's enough to show that boycotting was not forced by kespa like years ago when they boycotted gsl, but it was rather voluntary actions from many players. So it's not really Kespa being evil, but the players expressing their opinion, and trying to achieving what they wanted. Although I think it was their just right, but if you think that's wrong, then the evil ones are not Kespa, but the players and the coaches.
Also, In my opinion, Afreeca had to choose either Savior, Hwasin, and etc or so many other players and teams as their business partner, and they just chose the bigger one with greater profit for them.
On October 24 2015 05:07 egernya wrote: It seems many people here think Kespa tried to boycott GSl, but that's wrong. Kespa never said they were going to boycott . There was only one article that boycotting GSL was discussed as far as I know, and it only said that some of players and coaches were considering boycotting GSL. You may say that Kespa manipulated them to express such idea from behind, but ever since Savior started his first streaming, a lot of players, ex-players, and coaches expressed how unpleasant they felt that the person who ruined the gaming scene making money with gaming.
You may not agree with those people, but that't majority of progaming scene, and regardless that's right or wrong, I think it's enough to show that boycotting was not forced by kespa like years ago when they boycotted gsl, but it was rather voluntary actions from many players. So it's not really Kespa being evil, but the players expressing their opinion, and trying to achieving what they wanted. Although I think it was their just right, but if you think that's wrong, then the evil ones are not Kespa, but the players and the coaches.
Also, In my opinion, Afreeca had to choose either Savior, Hwasin, and etc or so many other players and teams as their business partner, and they just chose the bigger one with greater profit for them.
are you referring to "KESPA Players Allowed to play in GSL Season 4" ?
On October 24 2015 05:07 egernya wrote: It seems many people here think Kespa tried to boycott GSl, but that's wrong. Kespa never said they were going to boycott . There was only one article that boycotting GSL was discussed as far as I know, and it only said that some of players and coaches were considering boycotting GSL. You may say that Kespa manipulated them to express such idea from behind, but ever since Savior started his first streaming, a lot of players, ex-players, and coaches expressed how unpleasant they felt that the person who ruined the gaming scene making money with gaming.
You may not agree with those people, but that't majority of progaming scene, and regardless that's right or wrong, I think it's enough to show that boycotting was not forced by kespa like years ago when they boycotted gsl, but it was rather voluntary actions from many players. So it's not really Kespa being evil, but the players expressing their opinion, and trying to achieving what they wanted. Although I think it was their just right, but if you think that's wrong, then the evil ones are not Kespa, but the players and the coaches.
Also, In my opinion, Afreeca had to choose either Savior, Hwasin, and etc or so many other players and teams as their business partner, and they just chose the bigger one with greater profit for them.
are you referring to "KESPA Players Allowed to play in GSL Season 4" ?
I don't remember which GSL it was, but if you meant when Kespa and ESF fought, yes. I've seen lots of people saying like "OMG the evil Kespa is back, and they are now even worse monopolizing the scene."
On October 24 2015 05:08 mishimaBeef wrote: well... a few things
1. we are on a digital medium not a physical one 2. just because NHL does it ... are we going with the 'it's always been done that way' argument?
seems to me korean players are happy to get out of kespa and join foreign teams... what is that about the 'rigorous practice' regime they enforce?
I'm saying the associations behave that way frequently. Look - you generally have one federation for each sport per country. AS for the professional it's a bit more different - you have ATP and WTA for tennis, only FIFA for football on global level, Box is a mess but but FIVB - again - is a monpoly.
If you look at i.e. Kennel Clubs it's kind of similar. In some countries you have one (i.e. Germany AFAIK), in some there's only one really strong and the rest are just pseudo kennel clubs (i.e. Poland). You can't be in more than one kennel club.
On October 23 2015 11:21 mishimaBeef wrote: we should boycott kespa because they suck
who else would disqualify a player for typing "pp" instead of "ppp" before pausing...
Guys can we give this the attention it deserves?
You can get disqualified in Golf for making a mistake writing the score yourself (even though there are professional score keepers watching everybody) even if you immediately realize the mistake. There's plenty of stupid DQ rules in sports.
I like that argument. It should have some sort of latin logical fallacy name specific to it. "Something is worse therefore it is acceptable."
The question was "who else". The answer is a shit tonne of other professional sports organizations. Or am I just supposed to sarcastically snark and shit over the one organization holding the korean scene together in a circle jerk?
Well it was a rhetorical question. He was not really asking who else does it, because no one else does anything remotely close to dq'ing people for "ppp", and you have to go quite far away from eSports to find something as crazy, and even then it's an absolutely stupid rule which at least has some basis in rationality, it's to prevent people from cheating. Only KESPA is nuts enough to dq a player for a typo.
And no you're not supposed to join the alleged circlejerk, but wow gold? Nice try...
Right... there's never been people DQ-ed in the esports arena for tweets, random comments, user names and barcodes, draconian region locks and sign up restrictions (fucking over Chinese players), tournament organizers themselves fucking up and not informing players of rescheduling...... Do I even need to refer to shit that happens out side of SC2? MLG/WCS/ other reputable organizations would never do anything like that, only Kespa.
On October 23 2015 11:21 mishimaBeef wrote: we should boycott kespa because they suck
who else would disqualify a player for typing "pp" instead of "ppp" before pausing...
Guys can we give this the attention it deserves?
You can get disqualified in Golf for making a mistake writing the score yourself (even though there are professional score keepers watching everybody) even if you immediately realize the mistake. There's plenty of stupid DQ rules in sports.
I like that argument. It should have some sort of latin logical fallacy name specific to it. "Something is worse therefore it is acceptable."
The question was "who else". The answer is a shit tonne of other professional sports organizations. Or am I just supposed to sarcastically snark and shit over the one organization holding the korean scene together in a circle jerk?
Well it was a rhetorical question. He was not really asking who else does it, because no one else does anything remotely close to dq'ing people for "ppp", and you have to go quite far away from eSports to find something as crazy, and even then it's an absolutely stupid rule which at least has some basis in rationality, it's to prevent people from cheating. Only KESPA is nuts enough to dq a player for a typo.
And no you're not supposed to join the alleged circlejerk, but wow gold? Nice try...
Right... there's never been people DQ-ed in the esports arena for tweets, random comments, user names and barcodes, draconian region locks and sign up restrictions (fucking over Chinese players), tournament organizers themselves fucking up and not informing players of rescheduling...... Do I even need to refer to shit that happens out side of SC2? MLG/WCS/ other reputable organizations would never do anything like that, only Kespa.
I haven't heard of anything as bad as ppp but I guess I haven't been paying attention to all the shit you people have been putting up with while CSGO has been healthy... Still that brings me back to my first point, just because shit is the norm doesn't mean you should put up with it.
Why anyone would cheer for KESPA when it's responsible for some of the filthiest behaviors is akin to the stockholm syndrome.
Simply because the people making the ruling have had a questionable past, it doesn't change the fact that this decision, in this situation, happens to be right.
On October 23 2015 12:56 Doodsmack wrote: So basically South Koreans take their discipline and sense of honor and morality to extreme levels, and Afreeca caved to that. Remind me never to move to South Korea.
Thanks
Did you know that if you commit a felony in the US, you can never ever become a police officer?
Did you know that if a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, s/he can never ever work as a government employee in any capacity?
Just a friendly reminder that you may need to move out of the United States.
edit: to be perfectly clear, I'm not bashing America, I'm bashing your shoddy nationalistic "argument."
Police officers and army soldiers are pretty narrow examples. I'm fine with both of those things. Korean netizens actually felt so strongly that they boycotted Afreeca. That's the citizenry, and their beliefs, rather than government rules about what some government occupations can do.
On October 23 2015 12:56 Doodsmack wrote: So basically South Koreans take their discipline and sense of honor and morality to extreme levels, and Afreeca caved to that. Remind me never to move to South Korea.
Thanks
Did you know that if you commit a felony in the US, you can never ever become a police officer?
Did you know that if a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, s/he can never ever work as a government employee in any capacity?
Just a friendly reminder that you may need to move out of the United States.
edit: to be perfectly clear, I'm not bashing America, I'm bashing your shoddy nationalistic "argument."
Police officers and army soldiers are pretty narrow examples. I'm fine with both of those things. Korean netizens actually felt so strongly that they boycotted Afreeca. That's the citizenry, and their beliefs, rather than government rules about what some government occupations can do.
So is Kespa a part of the government? I believed at the very least they were formed by the government, right?
On October 23 2015 12:56 Doodsmack wrote: So basically South Koreans take their discipline and sense of honor and morality to extreme levels, and Afreeca caved to that. Remind me never to move to South Korea.
Thanks
Did you know that if you commit a felony in the US, you can never ever become a police officer?
Did you know that if a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, s/he can never ever work as a government employee in any capacity?
Just a friendly reminder that you may need to move out of the United States.
edit: to be perfectly clear, I'm not bashing America, I'm bashing your shoddy nationalistic "argument."
Police officers and army soldiers are pretty narrow examples. I'm fine with both of those things. Korean netizens actually felt so strongly that they boycotted Afreeca. That's the citizenry, and their beliefs, rather than government rules about what some government occupations can do.
That's why they can't participate in progaming events anymore, streaming is different. Banning from streaming would be justified if they i.e. embedded subliminal ads in their stream.
Also uniformed services are generally special cases in many aspects.
On October 23 2015 12:56 Doodsmack wrote: So basically South Koreans take their discipline and sense of honor and morality to extreme levels, and Afreeca caved to that. Remind me never to move to South Korea.
Thanks
Did you know that if you commit a felony in the US, you can never ever become a police officer?
Did you know that if a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, s/he can never ever work as a government employee in any capacity?
Just a friendly reminder that you may need to move out of the United States.
edit: to be perfectly clear, I'm not bashing America, I'm bashing your shoddy nationalistic "argument."
Police officers and army soldiers are pretty narrow examples. I'm fine with both of those things. Korean netizens actually felt so strongly that they boycotted Afreeca. That's the citizenry, and their beliefs, rather than government rules about what some government occupations can do.
So is Kespa a part of the government? I believed at the very least they were formed by the government, right?
I don't actually know for sure.
No it has nothing to do with government except that the government allows it to act as a regulatory organ, it's otherwise completely privately owned and it's a sort of union/management body that regulates e-sports with a iron fist. It regulates some of the institutions like tournaments managers, players and various organizations that are involved in e-sports, and to my knowledge, while it's technically possible NOT to adhere to KESPA as a player/organization of any kind, it's essentially suicide because KESPA is massively authoritarian and corporatist, as unions with a lot of power tend to be. And so they get to bully the fuck out of everyone who doesn't want to play by their rules, and they smother the competition. So even the orgs that are not part of KESPA have to adhere to their rules because if they don't, they'll get boycotted, the KESPA players won't be allowed to deal with that org, or they'll be blown the fuck out one way or the other. If you want to function in korean esports, you have to get in line.
The reason why you thought it was government is that it's powerful enough to coerce people like government can.
On October 24 2015 06:56 mishimaBeef wrote: hey BW guys, remember when you stole from us and we punished you? well more people stole from us so we're gonna punish you again
can someone justify this? cuz it seems like total kespa bs
On October 24 2015 06:56 mishimaBeef wrote: hey BW guys, remember when you stole from us and we punished you? well more people stole from us so we're gonna punish you again
can someone justify this? cuz it seems like total kespa bs
Wow what has TL become? Let me quote myself so I can continually hate on KeSPA. LMFAO
This bash fest is hilarious. Were you a big Hwasin stream watcher? Angry about all the balloons you bought on Afreeca?
What kind of ego lets you think you have the "proper, academic" position compared to the Koreans that have bled and funded eSports since its inception? SMH
On October 24 2015 06:56 mishimaBeef wrote: hey BW guys, remember when you stole from us and we punished you? well more people stole from us so we're gonna punish you again
can someone justify this? cuz it seems like total kespa bs
Wow what has TL become? Let me quote myself so I can continually hate on KeSPA. LMFAO
This bash fest is hilarious. Were you a big Hwasin stream watcher? Angry about all the balloons you bought on Afreeca?
What kind of ego lets you think you have the "proper, academic" position compared to the Koreans that have bled and funded eSports since its inception? SMH
a couple of things
first, you need to relax man its really hard to communicate if you're going to be aggressive, of course this goes both ways and the other person is also not cooperative to discussion that is not in line with his beliefs.
second, do not take the opinion of one person be reflective of the entire community, just because he said something that you don't agree with does not mean you get to take it out on TL.
regardless maybe you can answer my question from my previous post.
On October 25 2015 01:05 mishimaBeef wrote: it's a simple question. i don't claim to have the "proper, academic" anything. just an opinion that kespa sucks.
I think you've made that clear. You have the right to have that opinion and not saying it is without reason. However, I question why you would have such motivation against KeSPA's ruling and how you believe that your "boycott" decision could possibly effect or not effect the match fixers?
Pretty much none of these "KeSPA boycott" guys were watching match-fixers streams or had money invested in Afreeca's method of compensation. Yet feel like they were wronged somehow.
i just think it's stupid. this and a lot of other stuff kespa did in the past.
i read a lot of 'real world analogies' in this controversy and i'm just wondering how people interpret the justification or application of 'real world analogy' to the BW guys getting re-punished for someone else's actions.
I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
On October 25 2015 01:26 mishimaBeef wrote: i just think it's stupid. this and a lot of other stuff kespa did in the past.
i read a lot of 'real world analogies' in this controversy and i'm just wondering how people interpret the justification or application of 'real world analogy' to the BW guys getting re-punished for someone else's actions.
i think you're ignorant and jumping on a bad bandwagon. Please with all due respect lets see how much you know about KeSPA and what they did in the past (at least this way he actually might do some research) and let's see how much stuff we can actually squash versus the stuff yeah, you very well have reason to be upset about.
The fact of the matter in this case, KeSPA wasn't forcing afreeca to do anything. They saw a conflict in interest in the fact that afreeca was letting BJs who were convicted of match fixing in the past were profiting from those games while afreeca was sponsoring competitive leagues in which those games were played. Those players could always stream elsewhere. It's fair to ask. They weren't forcing their hand at doing anything.
if this sc2 incident didn't surface, would they still have tried to ban the bw streamers at this time?
yeah consumers united in boycotting don't force a company's hand. the company has the option of going broke.
it can't be known what tactics kespa used (if any). their reputation of being "evil" may be melodramatic, but it exists for a reason.
also, if the "pp" incident was "the rules" then whoever made the rules needs to seriously reconsider what it's like to be in a pro match of starcraft... while they're at it maybe they can reconsider the forced regime of insane practice hours imposed on the players, maybe then they won't be so enticed to fix matches - it's no wonder players seek foreign teams
On October 25 2015 01:26 mishimaBeef wrote: i just think it's stupid. this and a lot of other stuff kespa did in the past.
i read a lot of 'real world analogies' in this controversy and i'm just wondering how people interpret the justification or application of 'real world analogy' to the BW guys getting re-punished for someone else's actions.
i think you're ignorant and jumping on a bad bandwagon. Please with all due respect lets see how much you know about KeSPA and what they did in the past (at least this way he actually might do some research) and let's see how much stuff we can actually squash versus the stuff yeah, you very well have reason to be upset about.
The fact of the matter in this case, KeSPA wasn't forcing afreeca to do anything. They saw a conflict in interest in the fact that afreeca was letting BJs who were convicted of match fixing in the past were profiting from those games while afreeca was sponsoring competitive leagues in which those games were played. Those players could always stream elsewhere. It's fair to ask. They weren't forcing their hand at doing anything.
Devil's advocate.
Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue. When I first posted about how I thought it was dumb (before Afreeca folded), there was no outrage yet. It's just silly.
As for KeSPA not "forcing" Afreeca to do anything, well I think that has been answered correctly by a guy above me. If you don't have KeSPA's blessing, you die - or you suffer greatly. And Afreeca is publicly traded, which means that it will always fold under significant pressure because the shareholders won't let morality stand in the way of their profit. Any CEO which refused KeSPA's demand would get fired because of the sheer weight of that organization.
And where else can those players play? Azubu, Twitch KR? Who's left, really, that wouldn't get bullied by KeSPA if it allowed those players to stream?
But yeah to say that KeSPA didn't force anyone's hand is to completely misunderstand the very nature of KeSPA and it's coercive force. "Gonna let those players stream... alright, KeSPA players are no longer allowed to use your service". And then we'd watch the stock crash and burn.
On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote: Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue.
And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society?
I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue.
On October 23 2015 12:56 Doodsmack wrote: So basically South Koreans take their discipline and sense of honor and morality to extreme levels, and Afreeca caved to that. Remind me never to move to South Korea.
Thanks
Did you know that if you commit a felony in the US, you can never ever become a police officer?
Did you know that if a US soldier is dishonorably discharged, s/he can never ever work as a government employee in any capacity?
Just a friendly reminder that you may need to move out of the United States.
edit: to be perfectly clear, I'm not bashing America, I'm bashing your shoddy nationalistic "argument."
Police officers and army soldiers are pretty narrow examples. I'm fine with both of those things. Korean netizens actually felt so strongly that they boycotted Afreeca. That's the citizenry, and their beliefs, rather than government rules about what some government occupations can do.
So is Kespa a part of the government? I believed at the very least they were formed by the government, right?
I don't actually know for sure.
No it has nothing to do with government except that the government allows it to act as a regulatory organ, it's otherwise completely privately owned and it's a sort of union/management body that regulates e-sports with a iron fist.
Don't forget that the head of KeSPA used to be a congressman and assembly leader from SK's Democratic Party.
On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote: Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue.
And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society?
It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare?
As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue."
I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue.
I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality.
Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit.
Don't forget that the head of KeSPA used to be a congressman and assembly leader from SK's Democratic Party.
So if he worked at McDonalds would McDonalds suddenly become the right arm of government?
On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote: Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue.
And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society?
It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare?
As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue."
I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue.
I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality.
Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit.
What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you?
Have you been watching Hwasin stream? Buying balloons on Afreeca? Actually care about any of the match-fixers' lives? No, you're using this platform to KeSPA bash and make subtle comments on the "superior morality" of "the west".
On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote: Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue.
And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society?
It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare?
As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue."
I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue.
I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality.
Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit.
What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you?
Have you been watching Hwasin stream? Buying balloons on Afreeca? Actually care about any of the match-fixers' lives? No, you're using this platform to KeSPA bash and make subtle comments on the "superior morality" of "the west".
I'm not certified, I'm giving my opinion like anyone else here. And to act like government officials with more experience know better than I do is ridiculous. I've criticized my own country and many others, and people from all over the world have criticized Canada. They may not understand all there is to know about Canada but they can criticize some of the things that we do. And when I criticize my government, I'm not told "oh you don't get a say about this because you're this 26 year old dude and there's a 70 year old government official with more experience than you at this".
If you didn't understand, I don't know what punishment those people should get. When I mentioned jail and fines, I was just saying that whatever the judicial system decides to do. However, KeSPA is overreaching. And I would say this about any regulatory body in any country that would behave like this.
My notion of justice is not completely irrelevant in Korea or in other country. What kind of shoddy reasoning is that... If you don't like something X country does, you don't need to be a government official to have a word. I won't even give an example because that'd get distorted too... But yeah I criticize stuff that happens in other countries. All the time. So do you, presumably. Most of the time, people argue against me, or they agree with me. And if I'm missing some contextual info, they help me to understand. They don't just tell me "you can't say that you're not from there, and even if you were from here you're not government so you don't know".
As for "bashing KeSPA", I haven't talked about KeSPA in years. I don't care about KeSPA. I don't bash KeSPA ever. I think this one specific decision is ridiculous. And "moral superiority" of "the west"? Stop acting oppressed, I made no such statement. I even said something about how we do it too in my country, for fuck's sake. This is childish behavior if I've ever seen any.
On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote: Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue.
And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society?
It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare?
As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue."
I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue.
I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality.
Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit.
What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you?
Have you been watching Hwasin stream? Buying balloons on Afreeca? Actually care about any of the match-fixers' lives? No, you're using this platform to KeSPA bash and make subtle comments on the "superior morality" of "the west".
I'm not certified, I'm giving my opinion like anyone else here. And to act like government officials with more experience know better than I do is ridiculous. I've criticized my own country and many others, and people from all over the world have criticized Canada. They may not understand all there is to know about Canada but they can criticize some of the things that we do. And when I criticize my government, I'm not told "oh you don't get a say about this because you're this 26 year old dude and there's a 70 year old government official with more experience than you at this".
If you didn't understand, I don't know what punishment those people should get. When I mentioned jail and fines, I was just saying that whatever the judicial system decides to do. However, KeSPA is overreaching. And I would say this about any regulatory body in any country that would behave like this.
My notion of justice is not completely irrelevant in Korea or in other country. What kind of shoddy reasoning is that... If you don't like something X country does, you don't need to be a government official to have a word. I won't even give an example because that'd get distorted too... But yeah I criticize stuff that happens in other countries. All the time. So do you, presumably. Most of the time, people argue against me, or they agree with me. And if I'm missing some contextual info, they help me to understand. They don't just tell me "you can't say that you're not from there, and even if you were from here you're not government so you don't know".
As for "bashing KeSPA", I haven't talked about KeSPA in years. I don't care about KeSPA. I don't bash KeSPA ever. I think this one specific decision is ridiculous. And "moral superiority" of "the west"? Stop acting oppressed, I made no such statement. I even said something about how we do it too in my country, for fuck's sake. This is childish behavior if I've ever seen any.
To think that you understand the event better than the Koreans that are actually gave decades for the scene and pressed for the ban to happen is absurd. Calling me childish doesn't change that.
You still haven't answered. Do you actually care about the well being of Hwasin and other match fixers?
On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote: Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue.
And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society?
It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare?
As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue."
I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue.
I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality.
Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit.
What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you?
Have you been watching Hwasin stream? Buying balloons on Afreeca? Actually care about any of the match-fixers' lives? No, you're using this platform to KeSPA bash and make subtle comments on the "superior morality" of "the west".
I'm not certified, I'm giving my opinion like anyone else here. And to act like government officials with more experience know better than I do is ridiculous. I've criticized my own country and many others, and people from all over the world have criticized Canada. They may not understand all there is to know about Canada but they can criticize some of the things that we do. And when I criticize my government, I'm not told "oh you don't get a say about this because you're this 26 year old dude and there's a 70 year old government official with more experience than you at this".
If you didn't understand, I don't know what punishment those people should get. When I mentioned jail and fines, I was just saying that whatever the judicial system decides to do. However, KeSPA is overreaching. And I would say this about any regulatory body in any country that would behave like this.
My notion of justice is not completely irrelevant in Korea or in other country. What kind of shoddy reasoning is that... If you don't like something X country does, you don't need to be a government official to have a word. I won't even give an example because that'd get distorted too... But yeah I criticize stuff that happens in other countries. All the time. So do you, presumably. Most of the time, people argue against me, or they agree with me. And if I'm missing some contextual info, they help me to understand. They don't just tell me "you can't say that you're not from there, and even if you were from here you're not government so you don't know".
As for "bashing KeSPA", I haven't talked about KeSPA in years. I don't care about KeSPA. I don't bash KeSPA ever. I think this one specific decision is ridiculous. And "moral superiority" of "the west"? Stop acting oppressed, I made no such statement. I even said something about how we do it too in my country, for fuck's sake. This is childish behavior if I've ever seen any.
To think that you understand the event better than the Koreans that are actually gave decades for the scene and pressed for the ban to happen is absurd. Calling me childish doesn't change that.
You still haven't answered. Do you actually care about the well being of Hwasin and other match fixers?
I don't "know" better, it's not about knowledge. This question cannot possibly be about knowledge... do I know more about than any law in the world than the judges in those countries? No. Nor about the culture and the local preferences. I might have a case for ethics and morality though. Not that I'm right. But I have a case.
And do I actually care about the individuals? These individuals in particular, maybe just a little bit, but frankly not really, I've never been a fan of any of them except Hwasin back in the day, and I lost any respect I had for him when he fixed matches. It's the injustice in general that I'm concerned with, disregarding national preferences. This, to me, regardless of where it happens, is unjust.
And furthermore, the idea that the locals automatically "know better" than others because they've been working at something for a long time is an maddeningly ridiculous notion. Especially when it comes to these questions where there's not one definite obvious answer.
On that note I've said all I had to say on this topic, I'll answer to PMs should there be any, but twisting this into a national thing and martyrdom, eh. It's getting out of hand. Cheers and best luck to everyone involved.
On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote: Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue.
And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society?
It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare?
As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue."
I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue.
I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality.
Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit.
What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you?
Have you been watching Hwasin stream? Buying balloons on Afreeca? Actually care about any of the match-fixers' lives? No, you're using this platform to KeSPA bash and make subtle comments on the "superior morality" of "the west".
I'm not certified, I'm giving my opinion like anyone else here. And to act like government officials with more experience know better than I do is ridiculous. I've criticized my own country and many others, and people from all over the world have criticized Canada. They may not understand all there is to know about Canada but they can criticize some of the things that we do. And when I criticize my government, I'm not told "oh you don't get a say about this because you're this 26 year old dude and there's a 70 year old government official with more experience than you at this".
If you didn't understand, I don't know what punishment those people should get. When I mentioned jail and fines, I was just saying that whatever the judicial system decides to do. However, KeSPA is overreaching. And I would say this about any regulatory body in any country that would behave like this.
My notion of justice is not completely irrelevant in Korea or in other country. What kind of shoddy reasoning is that... If you don't like something X country does, you don't need to be a government official to have a word. I won't even give an example because that'd get distorted too... But yeah I criticize stuff that happens in other countries. All the time. So do you, presumably. Most of the time, people argue against me, or they agree with me. And if I'm missing some contextual info, they help me to understand. They don't just tell me "you can't say that you're not from there, and even if you were from here you're not government so you don't know".
As for "bashing KeSPA", I haven't talked about KeSPA in years. I don't care about KeSPA. I don't bash KeSPA ever. I think this one specific decision is ridiculous. And "moral superiority" of "the west"? Stop acting oppressed, I made no such statement. I even said something about how we do it too in my country, for fuck's sake. This is childish behavior if I've ever seen any.
To think that you understand the event better than the Koreans that are actually gave decades for the scene and pressed for the ban to happen is absurd. Calling me childish doesn't change that.
You still haven't answered. Do you actually care about the well being of Hwasin and other match fixers?
Soooo if someone puts effort into a scene, they suddenly have a better understanding of justice and morality? Your bringing up the west and all this random ancillary shit and yet you cant even string together a sentence that follows basic rules of logic.
On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote: Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue.
And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society?
It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare?
As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue."
I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue.
I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality.
Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit.
What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you?
Have you been watching Hwasin stream? Buying balloons on Afreeca? Actually care about any of the match-fixers' lives? No, you're using this platform to KeSPA bash and make subtle comments on the "superior morality" of "the west".
I'm not certified, I'm giving my opinion like anyone else here. And to act like government officials with more experience know better than I do is ridiculous. I've criticized my own country and many others, and people from all over the world have criticized Canada. They may not understand all there is to know about Canada but they can criticize some of the things that we do. And when I criticize my government, I'm not told "oh you don't get a say about this because you're this 26 year old dude and there's a 70 year old government official with more experience than you at this".
If you didn't understand, I don't know what punishment those people should get. When I mentioned jail and fines, I was just saying that whatever the judicial system decides to do. However, KeSPA is overreaching. And I would say this about any regulatory body in any country that would behave like this.
My notion of justice is not completely irrelevant in Korea or in other country. What kind of shoddy reasoning is that... If you don't like something X country does, you don't need to be a government official to have a word. I won't even give an example because that'd get distorted too... But yeah I criticize stuff that happens in other countries. All the time. So do you, presumably. Most of the time, people argue against me, or they agree with me. And if I'm missing some contextual info, they help me to understand. They don't just tell me "you can't say that you're not from there, and even if you were from here you're not government so you don't know".
As for "bashing KeSPA", I haven't talked about KeSPA in years. I don't care about KeSPA. I don't bash KeSPA ever. I think this one specific decision is ridiculous. And "moral superiority" of "the west"? Stop acting oppressed, I made no such statement. I even said something about how we do it too in my country, for fuck's sake. This is childish behavior if I've ever seen any.
To think that you understand the event better than the Koreans that are actually gave decades for the scene and pressed for the ban to happen is absurd. Calling me childish doesn't change that.
You still haven't answered. Do you actually care about the well being of Hwasin and other match fixers?
Soooo if someone puts effort into a scene, they suddenly have a better understanding of justice and morality? Your bringing up the west and all this random ancillary shit and yet you cant even string together a sentence that follows basic rules of logic.
You a funny guy.
I hope you eventually let go of the hate and find peace.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
On October 25 2015 07:07 Djzapz wrote: Calling it a bandwagon is very self serving though, I've been adamant about this because I think those people are suffering quite the injustice at the hands of the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue.
And calling the Koreans' outcry "mob mentality" isn't self-serving? And condescending? To an entire society?
It's self serving and true, whereas calling the response a bandwagon is much less believable considering that unlike the korean side of the debate, there's a few of us, making a point on a forum and nothing happens. Meanwhile they actively worked to get unfair punishment to people like BW ex-matchfixers. Seriously does it even compare?
As for the idea that it might be condescending to an entire society, I did specifically phrase it so that it couldn't be interpreted that way: "the mob mentality that seems to be going on in Korea around this issue."
I don't know if you've looked at this thread we're in lately, but it seems like the vast majority are pleased with Afreeca's decision. You're trying to make this out to be a "Korea vs the West" issue, God knows why, but it's a "Afreeca shouldn't host match-fixers vs protect the match-fixers' civil liberties" issue.
I don't see how I raised "The West" or anything geographical here. I agree with your definition of what this issue is. To an extend you might say it's only people from "the west" saying that the civil liberties of matchfixers should be protected. I'm fine with them doing jail time, paying fines, if that's what the justice system has for them. I'm fine with them being banned for life from competing because it makes sense. But the vitriol and the streaming ban by a united mass of people to fuck with a few individuals? I say it's mob mentality.
Not a criticism of Korea. It happens here. People get emotional and they want punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". I think it's bullshit.
What makes you so certified to understand the extent of their "crime"? How can you possibly have a better understanding of the correct punishment than the former government officials with so much more credentials and experience than you?
If those government officials are in a law making capacity, they have the ability to make the laws that govern this behavior. If they are not, and in this case they are not, then they are using their position of authority to stir up people to support what they think should be the law throughpublic pressure to 'force' a company to abide by it.
Convicted hackers are frequently prohibited from using computers by law. There's no reason you can't make the same sort of law for matchfixers and streaming. The point is that there isn't one.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post:
1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post:
1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post:
1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
OK, I misunderstood your post then
Np. I agree with you btw, it's sad when people skip this important right. This behavior might be worse in Korea (than in the west) but it's not exclusive to Koreans at all, unfortunately..
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Oh, I see.
Perhaps the gun was jumped then, but I'm sure that if in reality the match-fixers didn't really match-fix, they'll be able to continue streaming, no?
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post:
1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post:
1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
On October 26 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:
On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:
On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:
On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:
On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:
On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote:
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post:
1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
On October 26 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:
On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:
On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:
On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:
On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote:
On October 25 2015 04:05 nimdil wrote: [quote] Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post:
1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
Okay so... Who is right ?
Both of them?
Sorry i don't get it
Penev is right because South Korea legally respects presumption of innonence, and Chuddinater is right because the South Korean culture has a tendency not to respect presumption of innocence. Although I would say that it is not just the case of the SK culture but of literally any culture.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Oh, I see.
Perhaps the gun was jumped then, but I'm sure that if in reality the match-fixers didn't really match-fix, they'll be able to continue streaming, no?
You mean after they proved their innocence? (; What they should have done probably is to have them suspended from streaming while the investigation/ trial runs.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
On October 26 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:
On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:
On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:
On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:
On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote: [quote]
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post:
1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
Okay so... Who is right ?
Both of them?
Sorry i don't get it
Penev is right because South Korea legally respects presumption of innonence, and Chuddinater is right because the South Korean culture has a tendency not to respect presumption of innocence. Although I would say that it is not just the case of the SK culture but of literally any culture.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
On October 26 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:
On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:
On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:
On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:
On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote: [quote]
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post:
1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
Okay so... Who is right ?
Both of them?
Sorry i don't get it
Penev is right because South Korea legally respects presumption of innonence, and Chuddinater is right because the South Korean culture has a tendency not to respect presumption of innocence. Although I would say that it is not just the case of the SK culture but of literally any culture.
It'd be hilarious if it'd turn out i.e. Yoda is innocent and he'd sue the crap out of Afreeca and KeSPA. Not gonna happen and I believe there is slim chance Yoda is in fact innocent.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
On October 26 2015 20:14 Penev wrote:
On October 26 2015 19:58 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 26 2015 19:45 Penev wrote:
On October 26 2015 10:22 Chuddinater wrote:
On October 26 2015 07:32 nimdil wrote:
On October 25 2015 15:51 Incognoto wrote: [quote]
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies#, is the principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty. In many nations, presumption of innocence is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, and it is also regarded as an international human right under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted. Under Justinian Codes and English Common law, the accused is presumed innocent in criminal proceedings, and in civil proceedings #like breach of contract) both sides must issue proof. Under Anglo-American Common Law, the accused is always presumed innocent in all types of proceedings; proof is always the burden of the accuser. Under Islamic Law, a tradition had not been solidified but doubtful evidence should be rejected upon moral principles.
The majority of the defendants’ rights are protected in the Constitution of the Republic of Korea. The Constitution states that all individuals have the right to dignity, proclaims that human rights are inviolable, prohibits unlawful arrests, detentions, and seizures, forbids the use of torture, guarantees the immediate right to legal counsel, and awards the right to a fair and speedy trial.
The presumption of innocence is not an American invention btw
I think you are taking it wrong. The guilty thing comes from the culture of Korea not from the system. The community in Korea sees them as guilty and that's what counts. And that's what wrong I am more and more sad that the biggest stars are in Korea the more I read about the country.
I'm not, I intended 2 things with my post:
1: Make sure at least people know that South Korea in fact has presumption of innocence in their legal system. 2: To point out presumption of innocence is, in fact, an international human right.
Okay so... Who is right ?
Both of them?
Sorry i don't get it
Penev is right because South Korea legally respects presumption of innonence, and Chuddinater is right because the South Korean culture has a tendency not to respect presumption of innocence. Although I would say that it is not just the case of the SK culture but of literally any culture.
Oh ok. That makes sense now. Thank you for explaining.
I would argue the presumption of innocence should be a human right, and we are right to criticize countries for certain aspects of their moral code. Just like Saudi Arabia should be criticized for treating women like dirt, Korea should be criticized for bandwagoning against the accused. Some societies have progressed beyond others in their values.
Oh and how is it unique to Korea? Gosh, just look in any western country, bandwagoning against perceived guilty is pretty much standard in all societies, no matter if it is about yellow press, politics, justice or whatever.
Well apparently it's institutionalized in Korea. KeSPA (a government affiliated organization) comes right out and says "anyone who is named regardless of whether they are convicted will be banned for life". Not just banned from competing, but blacklisted from the industry. LOL
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
To put it really succinctly, thats retarded. Its absolutely ridiculous to ask people to respect someones beliefs, just because. I'm no more going to respect a muslim fundamentalists notion of justice than someone who rejects the very basic concept of innocent until proven guilty. And no, them being 'a different culture', nation, country, etc, has little to nothing to do with it. You dont get magic rights to cock up your society and make a mockery of justice just because you aint from the same place as me. That isnt how morality works.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
To put it really succinctly, thats retarded. Its absolutely ridiculous to ask people to respect someones beliefs, just because. I'm no more going to respect a muslim fundamentalists notion of justice than someone who rejects the very basic concept of innocent until proven guilty. And no, them being 'a different culture', nation, country, etc, has little to nothing to do with it. You dont get magic rights to cock up your society and make a mockery of justice just because you aint from the same place as me. That isnt how morality works.
Justice is relative. Your definition of justice may not be relevant to mine or another individual living in elsewhere, just like there are many forms of governance which we, as a member of society, collectively, participate in (willing or unwilling). You still have much to learn, grasshopper.
On October 22 2015 17:25 Shuffleblade wrote: Many people say that money rules the Afreeca World and that they changed opinion after the outrage.
I want to point out however that kespa themselves admit to fault since they did not offically reach out to Afreeca but just posted a "manifesto". To be honet I think just posting something like that without first contacting Afreeca is very bad manners and I totally understand Afreecas initial reaction in that situation.
Thus the wrongdoing is at least 50% on kespa and there's no foundation at all for it being the money of the public outrage that made Afreeca change their minds. Maybe kespa making contact and talking with them about it was all that was needed.
My point is that we don't know.
Rude maybe, but reacting self defensive and kid-like is not a proper reaction to an organization issuing an ultimatum that would in turn affect you. A proper reaction would be to look at the situation and then make a decision, rather than to outburst in a fit.
On October 27 2015 10:14 mahrgell wrote: Oh and how is it unique to Korea? Gosh, just look in any western country, bandwagoning against perceived guilty is pretty much standard in all societies, no matter if it is about yellow press, politics, justice or whatever.
Yes, but in Western countries the government at least tries to not act as a fuel into the lynching process of the crowd. In this example KeSPA is acting as the fuel. And it is a government company, isn't it?
This reminds me 50s in the last century in Czechoslovakia and that's a period of time most people here(CZE) would like to forget.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
To put it really succinctly, thats retarded. Its absolutely ridiculous to ask people to respect someones beliefs, just because. I'm no more going to respect a muslim fundamentalists notion of justice than someone who rejects the very basic concept of innocent until proven guilty. And no, them being 'a different culture', nation, country, etc, has little to nothing to do with it. You dont get magic rights to cock up your society and make a mockery of justice just because you aint from the same place as me. That isnt how morality works.
All your posts are pretty much a 9 year old throwing a temper tantrum, can you write a thought without swearing and insulting as you go? Get some help man.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
To put it really succinctly, thats retarded. Its absolutely ridiculous to ask people to respect someones beliefs, just because. I'm no more going to respect a muslim fundamentalists notion of justice than someone who rejects the very basic concept of innocent until proven guilty. And no, them being 'a different culture', nation, country, etc, has little to nothing to do with it. You dont get magic rights to cock up your society and make a mockery of justice just because you aint from the same place as me. That isnt how morality works.
Justice is relative. Your definition of justice may not be relevant to mine or another individual living in elsewhere, just like there are many forms of governance which we, as a member of society, collectively, participate in (willing or unwilling). You still have much to learn, grasshopper.
This sounds a little too much like moral relativism to me. Moral relativism is intellectually lazy. Your fluid definition of justice allows for public stoning of rape victims to be considered just.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is neither a moral principle nor a statement of fact. It's a legal principle of a system that intentionally lets people walk free rather than risk false convictions. One can be guilty without being legally proven so. Kespa and Afreeca are only responsible for acting in the best interest of their bottom line within the law. We can debate their strategy, but moral outrage is unwarranted here.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
To put it really succinctly, thats retarded. Its absolutely ridiculous to ask people to respect someones beliefs, just because. I'm no more going to respect a muslim fundamentalists notion of justice than someone who rejects the very basic concept of innocent until proven guilty. And no, them being 'a different culture', nation, country, etc, has little to nothing to do with it. You dont get magic rights to cock up your society and make a mockery of justice just because you aint from the same place as me. That isnt how morality works.
Justice is relative. Your definition of justice may not be relevant to mine or another individual living in elsewhere, just like there are many forms of governance which we, as a member of society, collectively, participate in (willing or unwilling). You still have much to learn, grasshopper.
The understanding of justice is relative, it is not in fact, relative.
On October 28 2015 03:57 Savant wrote: "Innocent until proven guilty" is neither a moral principle nor a statement of fact. It's a legal principle of a system that intentionally lets people walk free rather than risk false convictions. One can be guilty without being legally proven so. Kespa and Afreeca are only responsible for acting in the best interest of their bottom line within the law. We can debate their strategy, but moral outrage is unwarranted here.
It is a moral principle as it is a necessary preconditon for a just legal system.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
To put it really succinctly, thats retarded. Its absolutely ridiculous to ask people to respect someones beliefs, just because. I'm no more going to respect a muslim fundamentalists notion of justice than someone who rejects the very basic concept of innocent until proven guilty. And no, them being 'a different culture', nation, country, etc, has little to nothing to do with it. You dont get magic rights to cock up your society and make a mockery of justice just because you aint from the same place as me. That isnt how morality works.
All your posts are pretty much a 9 year old throwing a temper tantrum, can you write a thought without swearing and insulting as you go? Get some help man.
Coming from the guy who claims anyone who criticizes kespa/afreecas behaviour is a racist, thats pretty funny.
Oh right: Let go of the hate and find peace, my brother.
In Russia you're guilty until proven innocent. Isn't that the reason why people are throwing themselves in front of cars and everybody installing dashcams?
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
It's confusing. You're KeSPA representative (I assume based on icon), american, you explain s.t. about korean legal system which as far as I can tell is not true. Just because part of the korean community is pitchforks and torches doesn't mean its' how law works there.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
It's confusing. You're KeSPA representative (I assume based on icon), american, you explain s.t. about korean legal system which as far as I can tell is not true. Just because part of the korean community is pitchforks and torches doesn't mean its' how law works there.
Strictly speaking, he never said it was the law. He talked about culture and a unique moral code. The post was ambigious given the mention of countries' ability to govern themselves, but I interpreted it as the Korean community being quicker to judge, not the law saying this or that.
On October 25 2015 03:01 Incognoto wrote: I don't see why this is a problem. It's their platform, they can do what they want with their platform. If they're going to host the GSL, then it makes sense that match-fixers aren't also hosted. :/
Are you serious?
Sure, I can't see a reasonable counter-argument. What's the other side of the coin?
First, did they admit it? Becuase the trial hasn't started yet so technically they are innocent. How would you like to be thrown out of grocery store based on unproven accusations?
Just FYI in Korea it is not innocent until proven guilty. As an American that is a difficult concept for me to accept, but that is just how it is in Korea so I accept it and move on. As an outsider I find it difficult to tell a culture that they are wrong and should conform to what we do in America. Korea has their own unique culture and their own unique moral code that as a citizen of the world we should all respect a countries ability to govern themselves.
It's confusing. You're KeSPA representative (I assume based on icon), american, you explain s.t. about korean legal system which as far as I can tell is not true. Just because part of the korean community is pitchforks and torches doesn't mean its' how law works there.
I was confused as well. Read Otherworld post on last page.
On October 28 2015 03:57 Savant wrote: "Innocent until proven guilty" is neither a moral principle nor a statement of fact. It's a legal principle of a system that intentionally lets people walk free rather than risk false convictions. One can be guilty without being legally proven so. Kespa and Afreeca are only responsible for acting in the best interest of their bottom line within the law. We can debate their strategy, but moral outrage is unwarranted here.
I'm not sure Kespa's actions can be explained only by their bottom line. I think they are imposing their opinion of what's right. And I don't think what you said is mutually exclusive with that principle being a moral principle.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PigLwLz.jpg)
)
