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141 Posts
On October 23 2015 04:10 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 04:04 r_gg wrote:On October 23 2015 03:49 sixfour wrote:On October 23 2015 02:50 BisuDagger wrote:
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable. i can see why they wouldn't want to be associated. but what exactly are kespa doing to prevent the match fixing happening in the first place? we've still got the absurdly top-heavy payout structures in individual leagues, leaving anything other than the absolute elite of the elite making next to nothing (to be fair, wcs finals are equally ridiculous). proleague's stagnant - skt's the main sponsor so it's not like kespa has been able to attract any new sponsorship interest given they own one of the teams already. i'd be surprised if they can replace prime next season. gstl's gone. there's little to nothing in terms of non-gsl/ssl tournaments that lower tier players can compete in. say for example soulkey was breaking through now instead of five years ago - what's there for him to play in? sure, kespa can say what they like re: afreeca, but it's a bit two faced to bring down the banhammer re: players that have been stupid enough to get caught, and then ignore the landscape that's causing players to match fix in the first place, and also be happy to brush incredibly likely cases under the rug when they do occur. The request to ban the streamers is directly in line with the movement to show that esports is clean of matchfixing and doesn't tolerate it at all. The BW matchfixing was directly responsible for destroying the reputation of the esports industry to the ground and driving away sponsors that didn't want to be associated with tainted image of the scene. It's very difficult to convince your sponsors that the scene is now clean of matchfixing if one of the main tournament organizers is also supporting a culprit streaming happily side-by-side to the very tournament he matchfixed in. The distinction between streaming and competitive gaming is very small for an outsider. do u still believe this crap ? ... kespa vs blizzard killed bw
match-fixing had much direct impact to ruining the public perception of esports in Korea than Kespa vs Blizzard debacle. The match-fixing scandal was covered on all the prime-time channels and had direct impact on the public image. The main reason MBC Gaming closed down was the negative image towards gaming. No one outside of the gaming community cared about Kespa vs Blizzard.
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I really don't approve of this action. Match fixers or not, the internet is a place of freedom and no regulation. And this action has no place on the internet.
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On October 23 2015 02:50 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 01:52 TheWinks wrote:On October 23 2015 01:48 RKC wrote:
Seems like the Korean Starcraft community is rather united on the ban. Whilst the TL community is rather divided.
Somehow, many are saying or implying that the Korean community's united view is driven by an irrational mob mentality. I think that's uncalled for, culturally insensitive and irrelevant to the whole issue. Is unity a sign of irrationality? Of course not. Koreans are the ones watching and supporting them in the first place. Most international starcraft viewers didn't watch brood war or really care about the whole thing. The question isn't emotional at all to most non-Korean fans, it's just academic. Woah buddy, explain yourself. Also, how can an international Starcraft viewer not watch Starcraft?.
The current international audience for StarCraft as an esport grew mostly through SC2 2010 and onwards, not through brood war. Plenty of people are learning about the bw matchfixing for the first time right now.
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I guess the Blizzard card has been played on the backstage.
Both statements are so cute, though <3
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I totally support what they did here. Matchfixers continuing to stream on their platform while they run the biggest SC2 tournament is like Lance Armstrong being able to advertise biking lessons or training at the Tour de France and make money off of it which is patently ridiculous.
This would all be a moot point if they weren't running the GSL. To continue to even associate with such individuals in any way when they run the freakin GSL would really hurt their credibility.
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I guess serving your sentence isnt enough in korea, they've got to engage in vigilante justice and, on top of all the harassment and death threats and social ostracism already, lose basically your last source of income.
You know, completely and utterly crush anyone who makes a mistake. No mercy.
Fucking ridiculous.
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I've heard rumors that it may, in fact, be possible to earn a living in a way that has nothing to do with video games at all. Probably just hearsay, though.
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Poland3748 Posts
On October 22 2015 23:06 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 22:00 nimdil wrote:
GSL and their personal streams are different Afreeca channels. Yet its the same company giving them a platform. The Tour de France wouldn't allow advertisements for Lance Armstrong cycling lessons.
For starters TdF waited for court ruling, unlike KeSPA and Afreeca.
Second, that's not fair comparison.
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On October 23 2015 07:21 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 23:06 -Celestial- wrote:On October 22 2015 22:00 nimdil wrote:
GSL and their personal streams are different Afreeca channels. Yet its the same company giving them a platform. The Tour de France wouldn't allow advertisements for Lance Armstrong cycling lessons. For starters TdF waited for court ruling, unlike KeSPA and Afreeca. Second, that's not fair comparison.
Why isn't it a fair comparison? Seems fair to me.
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On October 23 2015 07:21 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 23:06 -Celestial- wrote:On October 22 2015 22:00 nimdil wrote:
GSL and their personal streams are different Afreeca channels. Yet its the same company giving them a platform. The Tour de France wouldn't allow advertisements for Lance Armstrong cycling lessons. For starters TdF waited for court ruling, unlike KeSPA and Afreeca. Second, that's not fair comparison.
Comparisons to TdF aside, at the very least as the new owners and showrunners of the GSL, you know the largest and supposedly most prestigious SC2 tournament around, they shouldn't be associated with matchfixers at all, at least if they want to maintain any degree of credibility at all.
Like I said, if they weren't the new owners of the GSL this would all be a moot point and I'd agree that they shouldn't be banned.
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On October 23 2015 06:44 Circumstance wrote:
I've heard rumors that it may, in fact, be possible to earn a living in a way that has nothing to do with video games at all. Probably just hearsay, though. You clearly dont know a thing about korean society if you think these guys, who have forgone education and military service in order to play video games, and then fucked it all up, have much to look forward to in their lives. Savior apparently didnt leave his house for the better part of a year. There going to be destitute losers either way, but this just grounds them down into nothing, all the more.
And why? Punishments should fit the crime.
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Bisutopia19231 Posts
On October 23 2015 05:24 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 02:50 BisuDagger wrote:On October 23 2015 01:52 TheWinks wrote:On October 23 2015 01:48 RKC wrote:
Seems like the Korean Starcraft community is rather united on the ban. Whilst the TL community is rather divided.
Somehow, many are saying or implying that the Korean community's united view is driven by an irrational mob mentality. I think that's uncalled for, culturally insensitive and irrelevant to the whole issue. Is unity a sign of irrationality? Of course not. Koreans are the ones watching and supporting them in the first place. Most international starcraft viewers didn't watch brood war or really care about the whole thing. The question isn't emotional at all to most non-Korean fans, it's just academic. Woah buddy, explain yourself. Also, how can an international Starcraft viewer not watch Starcraft?. The current international audience for StarCraft as an esport grew mostly through SC2 2010 and onwards, not through brood war. Plenty of people are learning about the bw matchfixing for the first time right now.
Ty for the reply. I'm always willing to admit when I've read something wrong. :D
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On October 23 2015 08:12 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 06:44 Circumstance wrote:
I've heard rumors that it may, in fact, be possible to earn a living in a way that has nothing to do with video games at all. Probably just hearsay, though. You clearly dont know a thing about korean society if you think these guys, who have forgone education and military service in order to play video games, and then fucked it all up, have much to look forward to in their lives. Savior apparently didnt leave his house for the better part of a year. There going to be destitute losers either way, but this just grounds them down into nothing, all the more. And why? Punishments should fit the crime.
shame culture coupled with modern social media... :/
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Yes, there is a violation of personal right here - no one is saying there isn't. The only issue is whether it's justified and proportional to protect the greater good of society.
On proportionality - how deep is the violation anyway? A person being deprived to stream a particular computer game online? Is it the same as being deprived from livelihood absolutely? Some people make it seem like Korean pro-gamers can only play games as their source of livelihood, and are good at nothing else in life. That, to me, is ridiculous. Are they going to play and live on Starcraft for the rest of their lifetime? No. Now is as good of a start as any for the match-fixers to move on to an entirely different game or try something other than computer games. It's called growing up.
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On October 23 2015 04:31 BingbingBOPOMOFO wrote:
I really don't approve of this action. Match fixers or not, the internet is a place of freedom and no regulation. And this action has no place on the internet.
By this logic, we shouldn't ban cheaters either. They are playing on the internet.
GG no RE matchfixers. Though, this won't solve the core of the problem which could be income inequality between teams competing in the same league.
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On October 22 2015 22:00 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 21:44 Strela wrote:On October 22 2015 20:56 [Svall]Granis wrote:
This is getting way out of hand....soon Kespa dont want them to go to their local corner store to get milk because a progamer is also going to there....like wtf
How it works for people who commits a crime (not all of them)
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, life goes on.
How Kespa wants it to be
You commit a crime, you get caught, you go to jail, you payed for your crime, we will destroy your life. How you want it to be. You commit a crime, nothing happens and you get a medal. Yes it's easy to make silly statements like this. Match fixing and cheaters destroy games. No pity for them. If a pedophile isn't allowed to work with children anymore I wouldn't drop a tear. Same goes for these guys. Lol you can't be serious. If a pedophile works with children there is a risk he does his crime again. If a matchfixer is allowed to stream there is no such risk because streaming games is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to his crime. He just gets discriminated from other parts of life because of a criminal past. This is not justice, it's revenge.
Well said.
I disagree with this decision.
Especially retroactively punished bw streamers. And no forgiveness for a match-fix that happened 5 years ago, says something. Punishing someone is easy, forgiving them is quite an accomplishment.
Sounds like the are making a policy, but I think it is going too far. Sounds like caving to pressure.
I find myself asking the question, "At what point does the punishment fit the crime?"
Jail and a lifetime ban is more than enough.
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On October 23 2015 09:31 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I find myself asking the question, "At what point does the punishment fit the crime?"
Jail and a lifetime ban is more than enough.
Lifetime ban from... what?
I posed this question in the other thread and never received a response.
B4 never match-fixed in individual leagues. So... should he only be banned from team leagues? B4 and Yoda never match-fixed outside of Korea. Should they only be banned from Korean events, and not from WCS EU/NA? B4 and Yoda only match-fixed in events that grant WCS points. Should they be allowed to participate in major tournaments? Minor tournaments? Weekly tournaments like Olimoleague? How about streams of LotV's daily tournaments? Any one of those can be match fixed. Any one of those can be cheated in in some other way.
Whenever someone brings up ethics or morality, I wonder if they understand that the line must be drawn somewhere, and no matter where you draw it, that decision will always be arbitrary. There is no ethically "correct" solution.
Some people believe that the justice system exists to punish criminals, other people believe that the justice system exists to rehabilitate criminals. That alone should tell you that we'll never get anywhere useful by prioritizing minute ethical distinctions, when there are other very important considerations on the table. We might as well argue should a criminal receive 9 years in prison, or 10, or 11?
What is useful? Answering the question "should the company that owns GSL actively promote the content of SC2 cheaters, hackers, and match fixers?"
Curiously, I haven't seen a single person saying "yeah, there's nothing wrong with that."
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On October 23 2015 06:09 Fliparoni wrote:
I totally support what they did here. Matchfixers continuing to stream on their platform while they run the biggest SC2 tournament is like Lance Armstrong being able to advertise biking lessons or training at the Tour de France and make money off of it which is patently ridiculous.
Hey Fliparoni.
Lance Armstrong could do that. It would be patently ridiculous.
Regards.
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On October 23 2015 04:10 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2015 04:04 r_gg wrote:On October 23 2015 03:49 sixfour wrote:On October 23 2015 02:50 BisuDagger wrote:
@Anyone angry at Kespa, they are doing what it takes to protect their product based on first hand experiences from this happening five years ago. You can't blame them for their demands as they are absolutely understandable. i can see why they wouldn't want to be associated. but what exactly are kespa doing to prevent the match fixing happening in the first place? we've still got the absurdly top-heavy payout structures in individual leagues, leaving anything other than the absolute elite of the elite making next to nothing (to be fair, wcs finals are equally ridiculous). proleague's stagnant - skt's the main sponsor so it's not like kespa has been able to attract any new sponsorship interest given they own one of the teams already. i'd be surprised if they can replace prime next season. gstl's gone. there's little to nothing in terms of non-gsl/ssl tournaments that lower tier players can compete in. say for example soulkey was breaking through now instead of five years ago - what's there for him to play in? sure, kespa can say what they like re: afreeca, but it's a bit two faced to bring down the banhammer re: players that have been stupid enough to get caught, and then ignore the landscape that's causing players to match fix in the first place, and also be happy to brush incredibly likely cases under the rug when they do occur. The request to ban the streamers is directly in line with the movement to show that esports is clean of matchfixing and doesn't tolerate it at all. The BW matchfixing was directly responsible for destroying the reputation of the esports industry to the ground and driving away sponsors that didn't want to be associated with tainted image of the scene. It's very difficult to convince your sponsors that the scene is now clean of matchfixing if one of the main tournament organizers is also supporting a culprit streaming happily side-by-side to the very tournament he matchfixed in. The distinction between streaming and competitive gaming is very small for an outsider. do u still believe this crap ? ... kespa vs blizzard killed bw
After everything I've seen and learned of in the last week (not just in Korea, but again in my own back yard), I am 100% certain Blizzard only cares about the money and doesn't give a shit about merit. In many ways, it reminds me of what Richard Lewis was talking about when he said, "The good days of eSports will be gone soon." In his interview with Lycan on TLG a few months ago.
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EPT
