EPT
On July 02 2015 03:22 [Phantom] wrote:
Im surprised you guys argueed so much about the definition of hard counter. It is so simple for me:
When talking about units:
A hard counter is a unit that no matter how the enemy plays theirs is always going to win,
Immortal tank is the best case. It doesn't matter if you got more tanks, it doesnt matter how well you play your tanks, you will always going to lose against immortals, and you'll need to transition out of them.
A soft counter unit would be marines and mutas, or thors and mutas. Marines and thors both counter mutas, yes, but they don't forc you out of doing mutas. When they get into the field you'll have a harder time with your mutas, but if you are good enough, you can still do tons of stuff with them, harrass, poke, pick off lonely units etc.
Phoenix vs mutas is another hard counter. Once the protoss got phoenix with range forget you even have mutas.
This is ofcourse talking about single units, but what about compositions?
Well a hard counter composition would be Colossus+Templar+gateway units against Hydra roach. At that point no matter how well you play you are going to lose, unless you transition or add other units like vipers and stuff.
A soft counter would be Colossus+templar vs MMM. While AoE counters bio, it doesn't force you out of it, you don't need to transition or lose. While bio is going to have a harder time, a MMM player can still win.
Basically, a soft counter doesn't force you out of a unit/comp inmediately, you still can do stuff with your units, in short they arent completely countered,
Im surprised you guys argueed so much about the definition of hard counter. It is so simple for me:
When talking about units:
A hard counter is a unit that no matter how the enemy plays theirs is always going to win,
Immortal tank is the best case. It doesn't matter if you got more tanks, it doesnt matter how well you play your tanks, you will always going to lose against immortals, and you'll need to transition out of them.
A soft counter unit would be marines and mutas, or thors and mutas. Marines and thors both counter mutas, yes, but they don't forc you out of doing mutas. When they get into the field you'll have a harder time with your mutas, but if you are good enough, you can still do tons of stuff with them, harrass, poke, pick off lonely units etc.
Phoenix vs mutas is another hard counter. Once the protoss got phoenix with range forget you even have mutas.
This is ofcourse talking about single units, but what about compositions?
Well a hard counter composition would be Colossus+Templar+gateway units against Hydra roach. At that point no matter how well you play you are going to lose, unless you transition or add other units like vipers and stuff.
A soft counter would be Colossus+templar vs MMM. While AoE counters bio, it doesn't force you out of it, you don't need to transition or lose. While bio is going to have a harder time, a MMM player can still win.
Basically, a soft counter doesn't force you out of a unit/comp inmediately, you still can do stuff with your units, in short they arent completely countered,
But no such unit exists, and context matters heavily. 10 tanks crush 1 immortal. If you're caught by the supposed 'hard counter', you can just delay to get other units out. Imagine if you've got 10 tanks vs 10 immortals, and you know your opponent is going to make more immortals, so you retreat while pumping out hellbats. The hellbats then shield your tanks and stop the immortals from walking up, and you do much better in the fight. There are so many possible moves, which is why discussing unit on unit in a vacuum is pointless.
That's why hard counters aren't a problem in terms of units, but they are a problem in terms of game design on a larger scale if designed poorly. One unit hard countering another is good in game design, because it prevents optimal strategies from becoming *Mass unit X*.
Thus, why in the discussion I pointed out that a hard counter is a strategical move which gives you a significant win rate over what your opponent is doing. Therefore, with that definition, the existence of hard counter strategies is only problematic if the notion exists within the Nash Equlibrium. Since that isn't the case, hard counters are not inherently problematic. Combined with the fog of war which allows players to attempt to break a Nash Equilbrium with a sub-optimal move for potential payout (which is a risky but potentially very rewarding move), hard counters allow for matchups to be more than just purely standard play.
The point is, there's more to a game like Starcraft than just the units, and any discussion which defines a hard counter in terms of units is limiting itself to a scope that ignores many important facets of the game.
