A bi-weekly streamed talk show featuring the Team Liquid Strategy Members talking (and occasionally ranting) about a wide variety of subjects. This will be fairly informal and will be treated as a discussion between the TL Strategy members. We will have occasional guests with us to discuss the various topics.
We will take questions near the end of the show. You can post questions you would like answered in the thread here, on the stream during the question period, or tweet them to us at TLStrategyChat.
First show: Saturday, Jun 27 9:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) Subject of Discussion : Hard Counters as it relates to unit and game design Stream: twitch.tv/johnsc2
Pilot Episode Featuring: Matteo "Teoita" Lucchini - Wok master and lord of the rant. Supreme Commander of the TL Strategy forums. Joel "Whitewing" Silverman - Game designer, strategy analyst, economist and teacher. Writer for TL Strategy and random player. Christopher "SC2John" Meek - Strategy analyst and writer for TL Strategy. Former Zerg and Protoss player, now playing mostly League of Legends.
Don't underestimate sc2john everyone. Search SC2 Notes in the forum, and browse the Zerg Help Me Strategy section. He's put in his time. If this gets him back to us, all the better.
What do you think of this style of presenting a strategy. What are the weakness's, strengths of this style of presenting as a concept? Is this something you enjoy, or is it a gimic?
Also what did you think of the strategy's and my approach to them contained in the vids?
On June 24 2015 13:20 Toudeleski wrote: Is there a proper Terran defender? If not maybe EJK or QXC?
We do have terran players in TL Strat, but they are at WCS or occupied this weekend. They will be available for future shows. This weekend's show is just a small pilot.
GL guys...a great ideea..there will be much wisdom in your show and hopefully a little bit of trolling to spice things up a bit...perhaps some crtiticism and BM?. Looking forward to your show.
Question: How do you believe the existence of hard counters (and/or counters that are meant to be hard) affects the thought process by a game's balance team in terms of what to patch and when? I mean this in a general sense, not in reference to anything in particular.
Wow, that might he the first SC2-talkshow I'm interested in. And lol at all the people throwing shit at SC2John for playing LoL, do you even know what he did here on TL before?
I'm worried that without good graphics, visualisations and interesting guests it might be too stale. Like a few critics discussing art live - you need Siskel, Ebert and good production value to pull it off and they had it easier, each movie is a very different story.
Nevertheless, good luck, I'm definitely going to give it a shot
On June 24 2015 18:06 Ragnarork wrote: Arg, I got something planned this evening, won't be able to watch that... I'll try to catch a glimpse of it if I can, otherwise, 'til next time.
Good luck with that, cool idea!
VoDs should be available in case you want to watch later! ^^
On June 24 2015 16:29 Pandemona wrote: I first hand know how much Teo can rant at a game design / balance issue.....hahahaha twitch chat will be so mad after this
I doubt that the first occupation of twitch chat will be about balance rants while a SC2 strategy talkshow is hosted by a lol player
On June 24 2015 18:06 Ragnarork wrote: Arg, I got something planned this evening, won't be able to watch that... I'll try to catch a glimpse of it if I can, otherwise, 'til next time.
Good luck with that, cool idea!
VoDs should be available in case you want to watch later! ^^
On June 24 2015 18:06 Ragnarork wrote: Arg, I got something planned this evening, won't be able to watch that... I'll try to catch a glimpse of it if I can, otherwise, 'til next time.
Good luck with that, cool idea!
VoDs should be available in case you want to watch later! ^^
Will this be about an iteration of SC2(LotV/HotS) or more generally about all RTS games or even all game genres? I mean, just hard counters in sc2 have been discussed ad nauseam.
On June 25 2015 02:14 KeksX wrote: Will this be about an iteration of SC2(LotV/HotS) or more generally about all RTS games or even all game genres? I mean, just hard counters in sc2 have been discussed ad nauseam.
We'll be discussing game design in general, but it is a Starcraft focused show, so there will be some of that as well. Expect something a little different than what you're used to :D.
I think Mutas are a bit weak in ZvP at the moment. I think a good buff would be to maybe double their speed and attack to encourage more muta play. What do you guys think about this?
On June 25 2015 04:59 KelsierSC wrote: I don't really find much value in non-pro players discussing strategy.
But I hope you all have fun on the show.
I find this odd... Non-pro players designed pretty much every game in existence. You have to assume that when they were making these games they discussed strategy. Your argument means that those conversations were not worth listening to.
On June 25 2015 04:59 KelsierSC wrote: I don't really find much value in non-pro players discussing strategy.
But I hope you all have fun on the show.
I find this odd... Non-pro players designed pretty much every game in existence. You have to assume that when they were making these games they discussed strategy. Your argument means that those conversations were not worth listening to.
I think he means that, generally speaking, pro players would be able to discuss gameplay at a higher level, making it easier for him to learn. I mean, imagine a bunch of bronze-diamond players discussing the game, the amount of useful insights you get from listening to them will be quite limited.
Personally, I don't think this is at a low level, considering the level of the articles from TL strategy. I do hope they get plenty of progamer input.
Edit: I didn't realise it was about general game design than strategy talk :D
On June 25 2015 02:14 KeksX wrote: Will this be about an iteration of SC2(LotV/HotS) or more generally about all RTS games or even all game genres? I mean, just hard counters in sc2 have been discussed ad nauseam.
We'll be discussing game design in general, but it is a Starcraft focused show, so there will be some of that as well. Expect something a little different than what you're used to :D.
On June 25 2015 04:59 KelsierSC wrote: I don't really find much value in non-pro players discussing strategy.
But I hope you all have fun on the show.
I find this odd... Non-pro players designed pretty much every game in existence. You have to assume that when they were making these games they discussed strategy. Your argument means that those conversations were not worth listening to.
I think he means that, generally speaking, pro players would be able to discuss gameplay at a higher level, making it easier for him to learn. I mean, imagine a bunch of bronze-diamond players discussing the game, the amount of useful insights you get from listening to them will be quite limited.
Personally, I don't think this is at a low level, considering the level of the articles from TL strategy. I do hope they get plenty of progamer input.
Edit: I didn't realise it was about general game design than strategy talk :D
It will depend on the topic of discussion. This first show is more about game design than strategy, at least.
Reminder once again that the show starts at 5:00pm EDT today on www.twitch.tv/JohnSC2 !
We will be taking some questions at the end of the show from Twitter (@TLStrategyChat), the Twitch chat, and also questions from this thread (in case you can't make the show). If you can't make it today, we understand . VoDs and audio recordings will be posted so that you can enjoy it in your spare time ^^.
P.S. Shiroiusagi made us an absolutely incredible overlay in a single day. Everyone should send a thank you note to her for being TL's graphics wizard :D.
Nice show today. I'm looking forward to the vods in the op.
I have some ideas and questions I would like to hear feedback on. So I guess the two new ideas to implement for fun I'm throwing around that not too many people seem to notice are having a clan ladder system and a casual ladder with more game options. I proposed a way to implement more game options by having additional tech items, Tech and ability vetoes. This way there is a bit more strategy going into the matches. My thread is here.
While my thread is one specific way to implement these key ideas. (I'm still making the pictures for the thread.) I'm wondering what your thoughts are on having a Casual ladder with more options. A clan ladder, where you can challenge other clans? Clan Observer modes? Daily tournaments? maps with additional constraints? purchaseable items in the game? Purchasable tournament replays? More committed tech tree options? Tech vetoes? ability vetoes? More abilities per units with added cost?
On June 29 2015 10:59 Bodzilla wrote: Wheres the vods?
We're having a few technical difficulties, and it's taking longer than expected to upload them to Youtube. However! they should be up by tomorrow evening at the latest ^^.
EDIT: We'll be making an official archive thread as well, so no need to worry about checking back here over and over again.
missed it because of kantu, watched the vod though, enjoyed it and seems to have potential. if you guys ever want to talk about map specific strategies I'd love to be part of it.
Am the only one that things Whitewing sounds a tiny bit like Peter griffin? Good even if you guys do the typical TL thing and argue over the definition of a word before talking about fixing a problem.
On June 30 2015 00:43 Ovid wrote: Am the only one that things Whitewing sounds a tiny bit like Peter griffin? Good even if you guys do the typical TL thing and argue over the definition of a word before talking about fixing a problem.
You gotta make sure everyone's on the right page before you can get down to business.
Im surprised you guys argueed so much about the definition of hard counter. It is so simple for me: When talking about units: A hard counter is a unit that no matter how the enemy plays theirs is always going to win,
Immortal tank is the best case. It doesn't matter if you got more tanks, it doesnt matter how well you play your tanks, you will always going to lose against immortals, and you'll need to transition out of them.
A soft counter unit would be marines and mutas, or thors and mutas. Marines and thors both counter mutas, yes, but they don't forc you out of doing mutas. When they get into the field you'll have a harder time with your mutas, but if you are good enough, you can still do tons of stuff with them, harrass, poke, pick off lonely units etc.
Phoenix vs mutas is another hard counter. Once the protoss got phoenix with range forget you even have mutas.
This is ofcourse talking about single units, but what about compositions?
Well a hard counter composition would be Colossus+Templar+gateway units against Hydra roach. At that point no matter how well you play you are going to lose, unless you transition or add other units like vipers and stuff.
A soft counter would be Colossus+templar vs MMM. While AoE counters bio, it doesn't force you out of it, you don't need to transition or lose. While bio is going to have a harder time, a MMM player can still win.
Basically, a soft counter doesn't force you out of a unit/comp inmediately, you still can do stuff with your units, in short they arent completely countered,
On July 02 2015 03:22 [Phantom] wrote: Im surprised you guys argueed so much about the definition of hard counter. It is so simple for me: When talking about units: A hard counter is a unit that no matter how the enemy plays theirs is always going to win,
Immortal tank is the best case. It doesn't matter if you got more tanks, it doesnt matter how well you play your tanks, you will always going to lose against immortals, and you'll need to transition out of them.
A soft counter unit would be marines and mutas, or thors and mutas. Marines and thors both counter mutas, yes, but they don't forc you out of doing mutas. When they get into the field you'll have a harder time with your mutas, but if you are good enough, you can still do tons of stuff with them, harrass, poke, pick off lonely units etc.
Phoenix vs mutas is another hard counter. Once the protoss got phoenix with range forget you even have mutas.
This is ofcourse talking about single units, but what about compositions?
Well a hard counter composition would be Colossus+Templar+gateway units against Hydra roach. At that point no matter how well you play you are going to lose, unless you transition or add other units like vipers and stuff.
A soft counter would be Colossus+templar vs MMM. While AoE counters bio, it doesn't force you out of it, you don't need to transition or lose. While bio is going to have a harder time, a MMM player can still win.
Basically, a soft counter doesn't force you out of a unit/comp inmediately, you still can do stuff with your units, in short they arent completely countered,
But no such unit exists, and context matters heavily. 10 tanks crush 1 immortal. If you're caught by the supposed 'hard counter', you can just delay to get other units out. Imagine if you've got 10 tanks vs 10 immortals, and you know your opponent is going to make more immortals, so you retreat while pumping out hellbats. The hellbats then shield your tanks and stop the immortals from walking up, and you do much better in the fight. There are so many possible moves, which is why discussing unit on unit in a vacuum is pointless.
That's why hard counters aren't a problem in terms of units, but they are a problem in terms of game design on a larger scale if designed poorly. One unit hard countering another is good in game design, because it prevents optimal strategies from becoming *Mass unit X*.
Thus, why in the discussion I pointed out that a hard counter is a strategical move which gives you a significant win rate over what your opponent is doing. Therefore, with that definition, the existence of hard counter strategies is only problematic if the notion exists within the Nash Equlibrium. Since that isn't the case, hard counters are not inherently problematic. Combined with the fog of war which allows players to attempt to break a Nash Equilbrium with a sub-optimal move for potential payout (which is a risky but potentially very rewarding move), hard counters allow for matchups to be more than just purely standard play.
The point is, there's more to a game like Starcraft than just the units, and any discussion which defines a hard counter in terms of units is limiting itself to a scope that ignores many important facets of the game.
EPT
Horrible time, will there be VoDs?
