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EvilsPresley
France132 Posts
On April 21 2015 15:52 magicallypuzzled wrote: except no one here is the police nor should they attempt to become the police for any reason what so ever. Exactly, so unless the Police gets involved, there is no point asking for proof. Because noone has any way of getting any proof. | ||
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On April 21 2015 16:07 North2 wrote: I need more elaboration on this, since I have no idea what the spawning pool and gas timing is supposed to mean. Again, I just don't see how the zerg can expect this to work if a simple scout on the MAIN BASE supposedly gives enough information to react to this shitty looking strategy. When Marineking scouts ByuL's main base, he sees how far the spawning pool and gas is done. By looking at this, he knows at what time they were started. This spawning pool timing he's scouting is very standard for a hatch first build. Thus he knows there is a hatchery building somewhere (or ByuL is floating 300 minerals in the most stupid and non-sensical mind game ever. It doesn't happen). Since he sees it's not at the natural, there's only two options - either the hatchery is at a gold base or it's proxied for offensive purposes. He scouts the gold bases and sees no hatchery. Since Marineking also knows when the gas was started, he knows the soonest possible moment ling speed can be finished. This means that until that moment, his reaper is free to roam the map. This is what makes reaper openings so good, the scouting! Any pro gamer would at this point scout around the edges of your own base and even around nearby bases to find the proxy hatchery, either using the reaper and/or your scouting SCV. There is no reason not to do it, unless you want to lose the game. Like Zephyr said - either he is the worst pro gamer in the history (like, worse than San blocking his own nexus with a pylon) or he is throwing the game. I'd add he could be drugged or some severe sickness, in which case it's even worse by MVP to field him again a couple of weeks later. There are no other explanations. Among these ones, I say matchfixing is by far the most likely, especially seeing the betting patterns (which are close to proof enough by themselves). | ||
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North2
134 Posts
On April 21 2015 16:15 IntoTheEmo wrote: I really like this post. People seem to forget that by assuming MKP is innocent, they are agreeing with the bolded statement as well. Most common argument I've seen: doing "MKP things" is hilarious. That shows that the people defending him have such little faith in his skill/abilities that it's "okay" to make such mind-numbingly bad decisions in-game, despite being paid to put in thousands of hours to excel at the game? Absolutely disgusting game by progamer standards. By Platinum standards... Why are you guys so salty about it lol. As I've said in my earlier posts, I find it absolutely hilarious that he either threw the game, or played so bad that everyone thought he threw the game. You can't really find games this bad too often, and I always had a good laugh when it happens. Unless you're a fan. | ||
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Disarmed
Austria721 Posts
To what extent was the community involved in unraveling the Savior-Scandal? How did it start? | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
It's not going to prove shit. Honestly it's like I said, if they were smart. The players would have told each other in person what build they were going to do and MKP is known for having derp-tastic games. If it's true about the odds of that website and they've been known for doing sketchy business before then you might want to find out their contact information and who they speak to and try to track a paper trail of the money because this he said she said bull crap will only get you so far. Speculation needs clear cut direction. | ||
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North2
134 Posts
On April 21 2015 16:27 DJHelium wrote: When Marineking scouts ByuL's main base, he sees how far the spawning pool and gas is done. By looking at this, he knows at what time they were started. This spawning pool timing he's scouting is very standard for a hatch first build. Thus he knows there is a hatchery building somewhere (or ByuL is floating 300 minerals in the most stupid and non-sensical mind game ever. It doesn't happen). Since he sees it's not at the natural, there's only two options - either the hatchery is at a gold base or it's proxied for offensive purposes. He scouts the gold bases and sees no hatchery. Since Marineking also knows when the gas was started, he knows the soonest possible moment ling speed can be finished. This means that until that moment, his reaper is free to roam the map. This is what makes reaper openings so good, the scouting! Any pro gamer would at this point scout around the edges of your own base and even around nearby bases to find the proxy hatchery, either using the reaper and/or your scouting SCV. There is no reason not to do it, unless you want to lose the game. Like Zephyr said - either he is the worst pro gamer in the history (like, worse than San blocking his own nexus with a pylon) or he is throwing the game. I'd add he could be drugged or some severe sickness, in which case it's even worse by MVP to field him again a couple of weeks later. There are no other explanations. Among these ones, I say matchfixing is by far the most likely, especially seeing the betting patterns (which are close to proof enough by themselves). What if...he forgot those destructible rocks can be destroyed by enemies? I've done that before. I'm so tunneled into one thing that I forget about several other important aspects of the game. That said, your explanation bumped my 8:2 odds up to 15:1 that he was probably throwing the game. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On April 21 2015 16:32 North2 wrote: Why are you guys so salty about it lol. As I've said in my earlier posts, I find it absolutely hilarious that he either threw the game, or played so bad that everyone thought he threw the game. You can't really find games this bad too often, and I always had a good laugh when it happens. Unless you're a fan. I don't get it, you're agreeing with me? I do indeed find it funny that it's possible for people to say "hey, it's fine, MKP's just really really bad." And they're fans? On April 21 2015 16:40 North2 wrote: What if...he forgot those destructible rocks can be destroyed by enemies? I've done that before. I'm so tunneled into one thing that I forget about several other important aspects of the game. That said, your explanation bumped my 8:2 odds up to 15:1 that he was probably throwing the game. I apologize for being blunt but... that's the reason why you're not in a Proleague team playing a televised match :s | ||
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Penev
28440 Posts
On April 21 2015 11:01 Shellshock wrote: idk what people expected Exactly this, I did and most people in the other thread(s) as well probably. Hoped for something different but expected this. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On April 21 2015 16:37 Disarmed wrote: I didn't follow BW really. To what extent was the community involved in unraveling the Savior-Scandal? How did it start? I cannot find the exact threads I was looking for as there were so many on it. This might suffice: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/119403-korea-swept-in-illegal-starcraft-league-gambling well shit a lot of the links in it are dead and would be in Korean. I know TL had extensive coverage of the proceedings and how everything went down including how the manager first found out about it in the practice room and how SaviOr lied directly to his face (ofc he didn't want it to be revealed). It wasn't going to change anything considering how many people were involved or knew of it happening. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/125601-match-fixing-scandal-conclusion That is one of the wrap up posts with the players who got caught. Perhaps someone else's search engine skills is better than mine. | ||
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North2
134 Posts
On April 21 2015 16:41 IntoTheEmo wrote: I don't get it, you're agreeing with me? I do indeed find it funny that it's possible for people to say "hey, it's fine, MKP's just really really bad." And they're fans? Yes and no. Why put a negative tone on your post by saying 'absolutely disgusting game' instead of poking fun at it? Why get annoyed by MVP's statement instead of poking fun at it? I dunno, maybe you didn't intend it to be that way, but I read your post as a bit of laughter and a bit of angst. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On April 21 2015 16:27 DJHelium wrote: When Marineking scouts ByuL's main base, he sees how far the spawning pool and gas is done. By looking at this, he knows at what time they were started. This spawning pool timing he's scouting is very standard for a hatch first build. Thus he knows there is a hatchery building somewhere (or ByuL is floating 300 minerals in the most stupid and non-sensical mind game ever. It doesn't happen). Since he sees it's not at the natural, there's only two options - either the hatchery is at a gold base or it's proxied for offensive purposes. He scouts the gold bases and sees no hatchery. Since Marineking also knows when the gas was started, he knows the soonest possible moment ling speed can be finished. This means that until that moment, his reaper is free to roam the map. This is what makes reaper openings so good, the scouting! Any pro gamer would at this point scout around the edges of your own base and even around nearby bases to find the proxy hatchery, either using the reaper and/or your scouting SCV. There is no reason not to do it, unless you want to lose the game. Like Zephyr said - either he is the worst pro gamer in the history (like, worse than San blocking his own nexus with a pylon) or he is throwing the game. I'd add he could be drugged or some severe sickness, in which case it's even worse by MVP to field him again a couple of weeks later. There are no other explanations. Among these ones, I say matchfixing is by far the most likely, especially seeing the betting patterns (which are close to proof enough by themselves). This kind of answer would amaze me if I didn't know how many people were/are ready to believe 9/11 was US government plot or that men in black style alien story are real... We could debate forever about how letting your reapers in base is a perfectly fine defense (cause really you already tried to kill a hatch with 2 reapers? do you really think it's worth the risk of being surrounded by lings?) and about how INnovation scouted the same build 2 weeks later (except he know what byul does) tried to react but lost anyway cause the build is hella strong on this map, about plenty of other things that have been pointed out on other threads (esp regarding Pinnacle's role in this story)... But it's not even worth it, cause like anyone caught into a consipracy theory, you're being blind to simple evidence and tied in your own reasonning fallacies (if you have the time you should read THIS and question all the post your made about this MK affair) In the end, you've being bitching about the delay of this statement every 2 days on these forums, and when it finally comes - and is much more detailed than one could have expected, tbh - you give us you're already made conclusion "Match fixing is by far the most likely". Actually you just can't hear anything else and maybe in your wetdreams your thought that MVP would say "MK is guilty, thx @DJHelium, here, take that Pulitzer price" It's also likely you won't stop posting about this until eveybody on TL says you're right, and as this will not happen, you will keep on posting, until everyone is just too bored to even read what you post and nobody will answer. At this point, maybe, when nobody but you and a few other consiprationist will still keep posting, you might think that we re all conviced and the MK's matchfixing case has been proven. In your little world MK will be in the hall of infame right next to Savior, and you will think, with a sigh of relief, "luckily I was there, else nobody would have known". | ||
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magicallypuzzled
United States588 Posts
On April 21 2015 16:14 Volband wrote: I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake. my apologies some of what I said was out of line and it is true that at the very least mkp is showing that he sucks enough to make such a terrible mistake even if the worst isn't true. | ||
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On April 21 2015 16:55 Gwavajuice wrote: This kind of answer would amaze me if I didn't know how many people were/are ready to believe 9/11 was US government plot or that men in black style alien story are real... We could debate forever about how letting your reapers in base is a perfectly fine defense (cause really you already tried to kill a hatch with 2 reapers? do you really think it's worth the risk of being surrounded by lings?) and about how INnovation scouted the same build 2 weeks later (except he know what byul does) tried to react but lost anyway cause the build is hella strong on this map, about plenty of other things that have been pointed out on other threads (esp regarding Pinnacle's role in this story)... But it's not even worth it, cause like anyone caught into a consipracy theory, you're being blind to simple evidence and tied in your own reasonning fallacies (if you have the time you should read THIS and question all the post your made about this MK affair) In the end, you've being bitching about the delay of this statement every 2 days on these forums, and when it finally comes - and is much more detailed than one could have expected, tbh - you give us you're already made conclusion "Match fixing is by far the most likely". Actually you just can't hear anything else and maybe in your wetdreams your thought that MVP would say "MK is guilty, thx @DJHelium, here, take that Pulitzer price" It's also likely you won't stop posting about this until eveybody on TL says you're right, and as this will not happen, you will keep on posting, until everyone is just too bored to even read what you post and nobody will answer. At this point, maybe, when nobody but you and a few other consiprationist will still keep posting, you might think that we re all conviced and the MK's matchfixing case has been proven. In your little world MK will be in the hall of infame right next to Savior, and you will think, with a sigh of relief, "luckily I was there, else nobody would have known". Oh wow :D What is the simple evidence I'm being blind towards? I'm happy to be proven wrong here! I'm trying to stay reasonable in all my posts, explaining my thought process. What I'm saying is that there's almost no risk of being surrounded by lings since there is no ling speed. I'd even go so far to say that it's worth to sacrifice the reaper just to know what's coming, but that's just my subjective opinion. The reason I'm so invested in this is because I love to watch Starcraft and I don't want one of my favourite hobbies to suck just because some people matchfix. I think the solution is to have TOs/Blizz investigate. It's not being done afaik so I try to bring attention to the issue. edit: And I don't feel I've been "bitching" about the statement here on the forums, I try to keep that to MVP's twitter. What posts are you refering to? | ||
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Ingvar
Russian Federation421 Posts
1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing. A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points? Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter. | ||
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On April 21 2015 17:02 Ingvar wrote: Ok, this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Let me just state what we know: 1) Pinnacle has voided >5 matches in different Korean tournaments. Every time the person supposed to win the match won it. 2) Korean illegal betting scene is huge. Olimoley (and others) tweeted about tournaments funded only for purpose of betting knowing the result, some people who want to stay anonymous but are vouched for by TL admins also told about it. 3) MK played the worst game in the history of pro SC2. Knowing the timings and lack of hatch in natural and gold bases, he didn't scout with reaper backdoor rocks of his base and didn't see either spine or creep for >1 minute. 4) Every pro who spoke about the issue (like Liquid.Snute in this very thread) doubted that such mistake can be done unintentionally. 5) ~5 years ago we already had the similar story and the coach also told that they asked Savior, he denied it and they saw no evidence that he did it. Later it was proved that there was matchfixing. A hypothesis that MK fixed that match ties all these things neatly. Since nothing we can tell can change the attitude "this is not a proof", could the people defending MK give at least another plausible explanation to all these points? Please note, this is not pitchforking, nobody asks for MK to get banned, only for investigation on this matter. Nice summary. Also several pro gamers (MMA, Solar, HuK's korean friends, Axiom players) have said they've been approached by matchfixers, further indicating that there's matchfixing going on. | ||
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2208 Posts
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
Either way MK is done. What we're seeing is the world's longest death animation. If he did fix the match it will eventually come out, just as it did with Savior. If he didn't, then his skills are degenerating to being so inept and so blind he's making Bronze League errors. Either way I just don't see a way he comes back from this. I'm not saying MVP should cut him loose and not at least try and get him back, but man I don't see how he can. | ||
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HornyHerring
Papua New Guinea1058 Posts
On April 21 2015 07:26 Hider wrote: TLDR: MarineKing says he didn't matchfix, so he definitely didn't matchfix. ahha, that sums it up pretty well :D | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
MVP decided to indeed release a statement regarding this affair. Once they found out that MarineKing is innocent, they had two ways to go: a) do a "we did research and he's innocent" statement. That's what they did. Or, b) do a "we did the following things: 1. .... 2. .... 3. ..., and came to the conclusion that ..." Well, b) would've been the road of transparency. They could've explained exactly what they did to ensure that this was no obvious throw (including pressuring KeSPA to release the replay!). Apparently they tried to go down that road but seemingly stopped midway: "we asked MKP" (well, awkward but I get the idea) and "he was clearly in making his position" I read that as "We asked him and he did not show any signs of a guilt consciousness or remorse". My personal opinion: given that MarineKing tends to show his nervousness, that's actually a good indicator that he's not lying. "We took charge of the game and tried to understand exactly the circumstance, not only by checking the replay again" I read that as "We analyzed heavily what happened in game and could not find obvious fixing blunders such as MarineKing's camera pointing on the spine crawler building". If that is true, why not release the replay for everyone to check? I hope they're not afraid of pitchforks, because every second post in this thread contains a torch already. But okay, for whatever reasons they don't publish it (Totalbiscuit said "KeSPA"), it feels like they're shooting their own legs. "We also kinda grilled MarineKing several times, that's why he didn't play in Proleague for a while" I read that as "MarineKing said he didn't fix, and we really put pressure on him so maybe he'd crumble. We're taking this very seriously and don't want to raise the thought that our decision is solely based on MarineKing admitting his guilt or denying his guilt." TheDwf asked on page 1 already: On April 21 2015 07:14 TheDwf wrote: I have no idea what kind of “magic” people were expecting about that statement, but clearly they won't get it. Well I can give an idea about what kind of "magic" I expected: I expected a thorough, clean, solid and understandable argumentation behind whatever decision/conclusion Team MVP has come to. The outcome of that decision is actually irrelevant. At this point, who really cares if MarineKing is guilty or not? I think it has all come down to a trust issue (at least for me, it has). So the most important thing currently is regaining trust. How can you do that? By transparently explaining your thought process on your decision. He's innocent? Well, hopefully you did some more than repeatedly asking him. He's guilty? Hopefully you did some more than just comparing the replay with other replays. I don't want to judge. I just want to see that organizations are actually honest. Being honest as an organization can not always be a good thing, I know, especially in hard-fought markets. But at this point, the only way to heal the damage that has been done is IMHO transparency and honesty. Let us not only know what you think, but let us know why you think so. Let us reproduce your thought process, give us the chance to agree (or disagree) with your argumentation. | ||
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