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On April 21 2015 15:51 North2 wrote:
I haven't played SC2 since WoL and I really couldn't care less, but I find all of this very entertaining. MKP either went full retard, or he matchfixed. What a shitty place for him to be in lol
As an outsider with no shits given altogether, I personally believe there's no concrete evidence to say he's guilty. There's a lot of really suspicious stuff, but all of that combined is still not enough for me to hate on the guy.
As a somewhat more convincing example of how he could have genuinely went full retard, he could have been practicing this map a lot and all of his zerg practice partners happen to always put an overlord over there. After 40 games of 'knowing' there's an overlord there, he might have just had a lapse of judgement and just automatically assumed the red dot was an overlord. I've done this kind of shit in FPS games all the time when there's much less things to think about, and I'm sure everyone who has played any FPS game can relate to it (why didn't I check that corner....). I have no idea why the reapers aren't scouting though, I just don't have enough game knowledge for that.
To put it into perspective, I would put my money 8:2 that he's guilty, but I wouldn't hate on him just for being 80% convinced. All you guys need way better evidence to rage at this whole thing, and to me this whole thread sounds like it's a matter of perspective. It sounds to me like the large majority of people defending MKP thinks he's probably guilty, but they're right to say that there is no hard evidence. It's really a bunch of misunderstanding and/or raging at other people over the internet because the opportunity presented itself.
On a different subject, I'm more curious though how a zerg player expects this to work more often than not. Is that corner usually not checked or what...? I feel like you're almost guaranteed to lose when it gets spotted and it seems stupidly easy to spot.
I also find it funny how shocking it is to some people that matchfixing could potentially be occurring. It's definitely occurring, and it's really not something to get overexcited about If you paid 50 dollars for a PPV boxing match and one of them threw the fight, then yea...you can get pissed off at that. For SC2, almost all of the games are genuine and you got cheated out of 1 game, whooptie. To me, SC2 (at least in WoL days) was a whole slew of mediocre to shitty games even at the pro level. Within the cesspool, the memorable games/series were very easily distinguished and you can be 100% certain that those games weren't fake.
The minimap awareness isn't the big issue with MarineKing's play, it's the fact that he scouted what was going on by seeing the spawning pool and gas timing and choose not to react to it.
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On April 21 2015 15:50 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 15:46 Volband wrote:
Do you think it would be a good marketing ploy for kespa to charge full force at matchfixing, and as first steps, destroy a few (guilty) players to show they are serious? Or is digging their head in the sand actually more beneficial? I'd say it's more beneficial for Kespa until it's revealed, after which is less beneficial. So if it's never uncovered, this strategy is better for them.
But what about battling matchfixing itself? Even if this game remains uncovered, there are still so many suspicious things (as I read through this thread), that viewers and sponsors are losing interest.
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On April 21 2015 15:52 magicallypuzzled wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 15:46 EvilsPresley wrote:
Real problem with "there is no proof, give proof of fixing" point of vue is that: how people are supposed to find any proof if no material is released to NEUTRAL investigation?
How can the police do its job if they have no mean to investigate a crime scene? It's like "We received a phone call of pinnacle saying they see their neighboor wife is being stabbed to death. Then walking by, we found some blood on the ground, but when we knocked the door, we met the neighboor husband who stated that nothing happened, so we did not push any investigation further, there was no murder."
Anyway, I assume no neutral source will ever be able to analyse the replay nor scan MKP personnal computer for messaging services history, so whatever, this case is closed, nothing else will happen. except no one here is the police nor should they attempt to become the police for any reason what so ever.
What he's saying is that it's hard to convince us when everything points towards matchfixing and the only thing saying it isn't is that we can't look at the evidence.
The ones that can look at the evidence are biased since it's better for them if there is no matchfixing going on. Having someone neutral check into it (in his example the police) would be a way to claim that the evidence is legitimate without releasing it to the public.
On April 21 2015 15:54 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 15:50 DJHelium wrote:On April 21 2015 15:46 Volband wrote:
Do you think it would be a good marketing ploy for kespa to charge full force at matchfixing, and as first steps, destroy a few (guilty) players to show they are serious? Or is digging their head in the sand actually more beneficial? I'd say it's more beneficial for Kespa until it's revealed, after which is less beneficial. So if it's never uncovered, this strategy is better for them. But what about battling matchfixing itself? Even if this game remains uncovered, there are still so many suspicious things (as I read through this thread), that viewers and sponsors are losing interest.
I don't know, over 99% of Starcraft viewers will continue to watch even knowing this, maybe make some sarcastic comments regarding MarineKings map awareness.
Obviously I hope they deal with it properly, but I have my doubts :D
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I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
Btw I always disliked MKP, that tiny, weak boy with those hipster glasses.
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On April 21 2015 15:51 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 15:31 magicallypuzzled wrote:
actually no my position from the very beginning has been it seems highly likely to be match fixing [...] I get the impression that the discussion in this thread is mostly about whether the probability that MKP match fixed is 90%, 99%, 99.9% or 99.999999%, and exactly how much you are allowed to dust off your pitchforks at these probabilities. I think very few think that fixing is unlikely, say below 10%, or that the probability is a mathematical exact 100% (lolz) when they really think about it and understand the evidence, even though it may seem that way when the discussion get a bit heated. People that come in with an opinion before understanding evidence should probably be politely directed to a post explaining the betting evidence in a bit more detail, rather than flamed. So I guess a few more relevant question are 1) How should we treat MKP? Cheer for him as if nothing happened? Shun him like the plague? Something in between? 2) Can we encourage parties in power (KESPA, korean police, more? blizzard?) to take action in any way? Such as launching investigations for example. Do we even want action to be taken? 3) What options do we, as the community of watchers, have to take action if nothing happens, and these suspicious events continue? Stop watching? Spam sponsors? Pretend nothing happens? Accept the situation and add liquibets on which games will get canceled by pinnacle?
this is a good post I like it and I am not sure how to answer the questions for sure I am still undecided.
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I'm torn on this one. On one hand I appreciate that MVP made a statement and at least tried to address matters in the whole MK matter, at the same time it just seems like a very generic PR statement with a defence of "MK says he didn't matchfix. So he didn't matchfix. So shut up". It doesn't address ANYTHING and it's easy to say the burden of proof on the accusers but to me that's akin to putting your fingers in your ears and going "LA LA LA LA! I AM NOT LISTENING TO YOU!"
This statement does nothing to address any questions about the game, it does nothing to temper the rampant speculation of what happened. It does nothing to answer how a former top level Korean Progamer can either mistake a spine for an overlord or not react to a spine on the edge of his base for close to a minute and a half. It does nothing other than say "He says no. Therefore it's no"
If THIS is their statement they would've been better off NOT releasing a statement at all. I mean I'm not saying they can't say "We don't believe MK is matchfixing based on the evidence" but at least give us something that says you addressed the concerns of your fans and your viewers. This, this is just PR bullshit and it just adds to the whole "coverup" conspiracy theory.
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On April 21 2015 11:58 StarGalaxy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 11:52 StarStruck wrote:On April 21 2015 11:42 StarGalaxy wrote:On April 21 2015 11:37 Swoopae wrote:On April 21 2015 10:58 NovemberstOrm wrote:On April 21 2015 10:56 Swoopae wrote:
Would mvp be willing to release the replay for examination by the public? Proleague replays aren't released as it is, so i doubt it Mvp have access to the replay. They claim that it exonerates their player. Perhaps they could privately show it to a panel of trustworthy experts say totalbiscuit huk welmu kane rekrul and lichter or something if the replay cant be released publicly? Kespa could also just make an exception to their rule and release it. That's not what they want. They clearly don't want to draw any attention to it. If kespa cared thay would have made a statement by now. Their strategy is to sweep it under the rug and hope that it will go away. I suspect it will grow however and at some point it will be difficult to ignore. Let's hope that this happens before the scene is too damaged to recover. Edit: clarified they=kespa you do realize what happened with BW and how they punished the players who were caught right? So I see a tweet from a rep from MVP on the first page where they said he did and in the first post they say he didn't. What's happening? I also see no updates on the investigation. If anyone should be doing a proper investigation like before it would be the police. Not some journalist. The MVP coach says he is innocent. I have no idea what happened in bw. That was before my time here. I only heard that the betting scandal was obvious for a while and when they finally did something the damage was already done. But correct me if i am wrong. that's just what i read in the recent threads here. For the police to be involved there has to be a complaint. I am not a Korean citizen. I am not sure if someone even formed an offical complaint.
Um not even close with regards to the BW fiasco. It wasn't blatantly obvious. Some of us surely thought something was a miss when we see some stupid mistakes. They had to track the money as well as do a thorough investigation. you should have seen and heard how many people were devastated by it and there were many, many threads over several hundred pages long on this website alone. Heck, wax and others provided ample coverage of the proceedings.
There have been many times throughout history. Whether it be us foreigners, or the Koreans, or the league. Whether it be match fixing, using revised maps for an advantage, players playing for other players, mercenaries not supposed to be playing for certain teams, win trading which even happened on the TL BW tournaments - they caught them, etc.
I'm still never going to forgive the Red Sniper for what he did with his teammate in that Asia tournament which they never owned up to-- I know you guys did it. At least they caught him on the other bull crap. Not that final though.
There was no real complaint in how that unfolded. The team coach for CJ went up to Savior after overhearing him being swept up in a gambling ring and the guy swore he didn't know anything about it. He looks into it more and the cops get involved. I'm not saying grab your pitchforks or anything on the matter. If they keep tight lipped so be it. You need to be able to see a money trail. SaviOr was always decked out in Rolex's and other high end designer wear. They found the loose ends and there were too many players involved and some who chose not to get involved. They still knew what was happening. If it's wide spread. It's going to get leaked one way or another. It's just a question of time.
If there is no financial gain then it's going to be very hard to prove what happened. It's going to be a matter of he said, she said. It would be a lot easier if they were using a hack or something like having another player play for you (hello hotkeys and key strokes-- yeah we caught a few dandies that way). Or other players playing from another IP or masking it and then there are those people who cannot keep quiet about it. It can come out in other ways.
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On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote:
I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
We (at least I) don't want to destroy his reputation, we want tournament organizers and Blizzard to investigate the matchfixing that is going on and hopefully stop it.
On the contrary, if he's innocent then I bet marineking would love it if Kespa found the real matchfixers!
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On April 21 2015 15:37 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 15:36 Swoopae wrote:
A lot of naievete in the thread but im glad we are having this discussion.
To mvp: if you truly want to exonerate your player you need to at a minimum do the following
Release the replay
Interview w marineking with him explaining his thought process at key moments of the replay
Ideally a formal investigation into his chatlogs and finances but without police involvement thats impossible so at the very least id like to see the replay and mkp explaining his thought process to even consider the possibility this is some huge coincidence and hes somehow innocent What are we trying to find in the replay?
Spine or creep on his player cam screen would be conclusive. Other than that its just an easy point of investigation. Bnet chat and skype chatlogs plus bank acct etc would be where the final conclusive evidence is but we cant get that without police investigation unless mk and/or other suspects
Id also look for any financial link between the 5 suspected players w voided bets and also look for links between the ips of the accts that made the suspicious bets and anyone linked to the relevant players
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On April 21 2015 15:41 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 15:37 magicallypuzzled wrote:
I love how multiple people have said mvp isn't allowed to release the replay yet people are still yelling at them to do it. I think this thread would look very different if MVP's statement had "we would really like to show you the replay, which proves our player's innocence, but sadly, so far we could not convince kespa to release it. We will try everything we can to convince them the importance of this, so we can clean MKP's name once and for all!" in it, no?
Kespa is probably aware that matchfixing is going on by now, and is refusing to acknowledge it, let alone deal with it, most likely for fear of destroying their product. So I can't conceive that they would allow a team to release a replay, even if there is nothing to be seen on it.
We all know that this community will be able to "find" something suspicious on the replay if it's released, we're very proficient at that (see Avilo posting super-detailed yet probably circumstantial evidence about every guy he thinks maphacks against him).
The only thing that is missing for me in MVP's post is the acknowledgment that some betting sites have registered weird behavior then voided the bets as a consequence, but I think that this stems from betting being illegal in Korea. It's probably awkward for them to talk about weird patterns in an illegal activity legally going on overseas hahaha.
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On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote:
I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief.
I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case.
Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
edit: i don't hate him or anything though, loved his games and storyline in the early GSLs and I won't ever forget that. Sad it came to this.
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On April 21 2015 15:53 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 15:51 North2 wrote:
I haven't played SC2 since WoL and I really couldn't care less, but I find all of this very entertaining. MKP either went full retard, or he matchfixed. What a shitty place for him to be in lol
As an outsider with no shits given altogether, I personally believe there's no concrete evidence to say he's guilty. There's a lot of really suspicious stuff, but all of that combined is still not enough for me to hate on the guy.
As a somewhat more convincing example of how he could have genuinely went full retard, he could have been practicing this map a lot and all of his zerg practice partners happen to always put an overlord over there. After 40 games of 'knowing' there's an overlord there, he might have just had a lapse of judgement and just automatically assumed the red dot was an overlord. I've done this kind of shit in FPS games all the time when there's much less things to think about, and I'm sure everyone who has played any FPS game can relate to it (why didn't I check that corner....). I have no idea why the reapers aren't scouting though, I just don't have enough game knowledge for that.
To put it into perspective, I would put my money 8:2 that he's guilty, but I wouldn't hate on him just for being 80% convinced. All you guys need way better evidence to rage at this whole thing, and to me this whole thread sounds like it's a matter of perspective. It sounds to me like the large majority of people defending MKP thinks he's probably guilty, but they're right to say that there is no hard evidence. It's really a bunch of misunderstanding and/or raging at other people over the internet because the opportunity presented itself.
On a different subject, I'm more curious though how a zerg player expects this to work more often than not. Is that corner usually not checked or what...? I feel like you're almost guaranteed to lose when it gets spotted and it seems stupidly easy to spot.
I also find it funny how shocking it is to some people that matchfixing could potentially be occurring. It's definitely occurring, and it's really not something to get overexcited about If you paid 50 dollars for a PPV boxing match and one of them threw the fight, then yea...you can get pissed off at that. For SC2, almost all of the games are genuine and you got cheated out of 1 game, whooptie. To me, SC2 (at least in WoL days) was a whole slew of mediocre to shitty games even at the pro level. Within the cesspool, the memorable games/series were very easily distinguished and you can be 100% certain that those games weren't fake. The minimap awareness isn't the big issue with MarineKing's play, it's the fact that he scouted what was going on by seeing the spawning pool and gas timing and choose not to react to it.
I need more elaboration on this, since I have no idea what the spawning pool and gas timing is supposed to mean. Again, I just don't see how the zerg can expect this to work if a simple scout on the MAIN BASE supposedly gives enough information to react to this shitty looking strategy.
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On April 21 2015 16:02 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote:
I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief. I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case. Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness.
assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it.
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On April 21 2015 16:07 North2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 15:53 DJHelium wrote:On April 21 2015 15:51 North2 wrote:
I haven't played SC2 since WoL and I really couldn't care less, but I find all of this very entertaining. MKP either went full retard, or he matchfixed. What a shitty place for him to be in lol
As an outsider with no shits given altogether, I personally believe there's no concrete evidence to say he's guilty. There's a lot of really suspicious stuff, but all of that combined is still not enough for me to hate on the guy.
As a somewhat more convincing example of how he could have genuinely went full retard, he could have been practicing this map a lot and all of his zerg practice partners happen to always put an overlord over there. After 40 games of 'knowing' there's an overlord there, he might have just had a lapse of judgement and just automatically assumed the red dot was an overlord. I've done this kind of shit in FPS games all the time when there's much less things to think about, and I'm sure everyone who has played any FPS game can relate to it (why didn't I check that corner....). I have no idea why the reapers aren't scouting though, I just don't have enough game knowledge for that.
To put it into perspective, I would put my money 8:2 that he's guilty, but I wouldn't hate on him just for being 80% convinced. All you guys need way better evidence to rage at this whole thing, and to me this whole thread sounds like it's a matter of perspective. It sounds to me like the large majority of people defending MKP thinks he's probably guilty, but they're right to say that there is no hard evidence. It's really a bunch of misunderstanding and/or raging at other people over the internet because the opportunity presented itself.
On a different subject, I'm more curious though how a zerg player expects this to work more often than not. Is that corner usually not checked or what...? I feel like you're almost guaranteed to lose when it gets spotted and it seems stupidly easy to spot.
I also find it funny how shocking it is to some people that matchfixing could potentially be occurring. It's definitely occurring, and it's really not something to get overexcited about If you paid 50 dollars for a PPV boxing match and one of them threw the fight, then yea...you can get pissed off at that. For SC2, almost all of the games are genuine and you got cheated out of 1 game, whooptie. To me, SC2 (at least in WoL days) was a whole slew of mediocre to shitty games even at the pro level. Within the cesspool, the memorable games/series were very easily distinguished and you can be 100% certain that those games weren't fake. The minimap awareness isn't the big issue with MarineKing's play, it's the fact that he scouted what was going on by seeing the spawning pool and gas timing and choose not to react to it. I need more elaboration on this, since I have no idea what the spawning pool and gas timing is supposed to mean. Again, I just don't see how the zerg can expect this to work if a simple scout on the MAIN BASE supposedly gives enough information to react to this shitty looking strategy.
Watch ByuL vs INnoVation, NSSL Season 2 Challenger, Game 5. You'll see that's it's supposed to work even when scouted.
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On April 21 2015 15:59 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 15:41 Volband wrote:On April 21 2015 15:37 magicallypuzzled wrote:
I love how multiple people have said mvp isn't allowed to release the replay yet people are still yelling at them to do it. I think this thread would look very different if MVP's statement had "we would really like to show you the replay, which proves our player's innocence, but sadly, so far we could not convince kespa to release it. We will try everything we can to convince them the importance of this, so we can clean MKP's name once and for all!" in it, no? Kespa is probably aware that matchfixing is going on by now, and is refusing to acknowledge it, let alone deal with it, most likely for fear of destroying their product. So I can't conceive that they would allow a team to release a replay, even if there is nothing to be seen on it. We all know that this community will be able to "find" something suspicious on the replay if it's released, we're very proficient at that (see Avilo posting super-detailed yet probably circumstantial evidence about every guy he thinks maphacks against him). The only thing that is missing for me in MVP's post is the acknowledgment that some betting sites have registered weird behavior then voided the bets as a consequence, but I think that this stems from betting being illegal in Korea. It's probably awkward for them to talk about weird patterns in an illegal activity legally going on overseas hahaha.
so you're saying because it happened before they don't want to deal with another black eye so they rather sweep it under the rug again? Well their WC3 scene did get hit pretty hard too. Considering the amount of humiliation they bestowed upon the BW cohort I don't know about that.
I'll just say there is a reason why TL had a team of guys who knew their shit when it came to looking at key stroke charts and hotkeys let alone checking IPs during their BW tournament a while back. Quite a few people got caught. Didn't have to release the replays. There are people who exist who are good at dissecting these things.
Betting on games should be illegal. The funny thing is I do actually place bets on a lot of these games but not through some frigging websites. I do this with people I'm personable and we have absolutely no stakes in the SC2 scene or have been involved in the scene for a very long time. Considering the demographic and the idea of governing these guys who are just trying to make a living-- back then it wasn't much of a living. That's just not going to happen. My recommendation don't use betting sites. Bet with people you know and hopefully aren't involved in the scene very much. It's like turning a blind eye meh.
On April 21 2015 16:02 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote:
I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief. I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case. Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness. edit: i don't hate him or anything though, loved his games and storyline in the early GSLs and I won't ever forget that. Sad it came to this.
To be fair. I've seen quite a few games from MKP where he is just blatantly awful. Like really bad.
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This guy only ever gave a shit about winning. Did you ever read that article on CNN focusing on him? The dude has SUCH emotion invested in the game and winning. He's still never REALLY achieved greatness, he's only done "really really well." That slot is only open for a select few, and he's touched it with the tips of his fingers, but never really grabbed it.
Sorry but even if he did fix, it's so subtle that you can't really find out, so might as well not chastise him.
You can't just sit here and be like AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NAHHHHHHHH, MAAAAAAAAAAYBE MAN, and just fuck this guy over. Do you have hard evidence of a deal he match fixed? What was his motive? Oh, you have neither? Then GG punks, give it a rest.
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On April 21 2015 16:07 magicallypuzzled wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 16:02 Volband wrote:On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote:
I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief. I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case. Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness. assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it.
I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake.
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On April 21 2015 09:46 Liquid`Zephyr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 09:29 Goibon wrote:On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up. I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion. Proof has to go beyond a reasonable doubt. To me, a way to prove match-fixing beyond a reasonable doubt, specifically using the game played, would be to see if MKP ever saw the spine or the creep in his base before the time he looked surprised seconds before the lings break in. We know two things: MKP is a progamer with many many thousands of games played. MKP looks surprised at 5:50 in game time. If, using the replay, we can see that his main screen (not the minimap) looks over to the spine/creep earlier, then knowing the two aforementioned facts, only two conclusions can be drawn. The first (and the much more unlikely of the two), MKP is the worst progamer in not only SC2, but in ESPORTS history. After scouting no expo from Z, and a proxy spine (and therefore hatch) at his backdoor, he was surprised that he was getting cheesed when the lings busted in? MVP would do well to let him go as soon as they could. The second, much more plausible explanation, is that he threw the game. Given how unlikely the first explanation is, I would feel like the explanation of match-fixing would easily remove all reasonable doubt and it would do the same for the majority of fans alike. This feels like it is obviously the salient point and that's why I'm annoyed it wasn't specifically addressed in the response from MVP.
I really like this post. People seem to forget that by assuming MKP is innocent, they are agreeing with the bolded statement as well.
Most common argument I've seen: doing "MKP things" is hilarious. That shows that the people defending him have such little faith in his skill/abilities that it's "okay" to make such mind-numbingly bad decisions in-game, despite being paid to put in thousands of hours to excel at the game? Absolutely disgusting game by progamer standards. By Platinum standards...
Edit: Even if he didn't see the spine, he scouted the pool timing. It's obvious that his reapers have free reign to check around his base because speedlings were an impossibility at that point in the game, which he should have, seeing as there is no hatch in the natural. So why didn't he? Again, terrible decision making, if that is the case.
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On April 21 2015 16:14 Gruntt wrote:
This guy only ever gave a shit about winning. Did you ever read that article on CNN focusing on him? The dude has SUCH emotion invested in the game and winning. He's still never REALLY achieved greatness, he's only done "really really well." That slot is only open for a select few, and he's touched it with the tips of his fingers, but never really grabbed it.
Sorry but even if he did fix, it's so subtle that you can't really find out, so might as well not chastise him.
You can't just sit here and be like AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NAHHHHHHHH, MAAAAAAAAAAYBE MAN, and just fuck this guy over. Do you have hard evidence of a deal he match fixed? What was his motive? Oh, you have neither? Then GG punks, give it a rest.
So did SaviOr/IPXZerg. In either case, all this banter is frivolous. Find out where the money is going and who has been talking to who. If those websites have any connection to players then you have a starting point otherwise there's no point continuing this conversation.
On April 21 2015 16:15 IntoTheEmo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 09:46 Liquid`Zephyr wrote:On April 21 2015 09:29 Goibon wrote:On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up. I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion. Proof has to go beyond a reasonable doubt. To me, a way to prove match-fixing beyond a reasonable doubt, specifically using the game played, would be to see if MKP ever saw the spine or the creep in his base before the time he looked surprised seconds before the lings break in. We know two things: MKP is a progamer with many many thousands of games played. MKP looks surprised at 5:50 in game time. If, using the replay, we can see that his main screen (not the minimap) looks over to the spine/creep earlier, then knowing the two aforementioned facts, only two conclusions can be drawn. The first (and the much more unlikely of the two), MKP is the worst progamer in not only SC2, but in ESPORTS history. After scouting no expo from Z, and a proxy spine (and therefore hatch) at his backdoor, he was surprised that he was getting cheesed when the lings busted in? MVP would do well to let him go as soon as they could. The second, much more plausible explanation, is that he threw the game. Given how unlikely the first explanation is, I would feel like the explanation of match-fixing would easily remove all reasonable doubt and it would do the same for the majority of fans alike. This feels like it is obviously the salient point and that's why I'm annoyed it wasn't specifically addressed in the response from MVP. I really like this post. People seem to forget that by assuming MKP is innocent, they are agreeing with the bolded statement as well. Most common argument I've seen: doing "MKP things" is hilarious. That shows that the people defending him have such little faith in his skill/abilities that it's "okay" to make such mind-numbingly bad decisions in-game, despite being paid to put in thousands of hours to excel at the game? Absolutely disgusting game by progamer standards. By Platinum standards...
Like I said before, I have seen him make quite a few boneheaded plays that are IdrA worthy or out of pure stubbornness. As in.. 'I'm going to do this build no matter what if it works great. If it doesn't, well I'm kind of boned.' Are we to say those games were fixed too and MKP is a consistent genius but throws more games? I doubt it. His play style doesn't allow him to be a consistent player. It helps having a little lady luck sometimes. There is a lot more luck in SC2 than there was in BW and it would be a lot easier to throw something. Sure, the BW guys spoke about what they were going to do beforehand to give the other player a leg up when it came to fixing. However, when we were doing clan wars or ladder tournaments we would still be able to catch people pretty swiftly and we ended up with a lot of cheaters. Many of which you already know. That's thanks to a lot of third party programs like BWChart, people on top of shit and then dumb young people trying to get away with such things because they want a quick buck or just to win. Many cases back then it was just to win because our scene had no money. A lot of the Korean pro's were making very little too so you can imagine when people flaunt a few dollars in their face and them knowing they would have to settle for mediocrity. It's kind of a shitty situation for them but you got to have pride.
I can understand their situation. It's still a bad move just to make a quick buck because you soil your reputation forever. At that age I don't think they even think about it though. I guess their tune is 'boys will be boys.'
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On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote:
So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing.
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative.
Release the replay.
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EPT
