On March 26 2015 04:15 Big J wrote: I've watched this game for 5years now. I've seen people make the most retarted decisions. Under the assumption that MK really just missed the spine crawler outside of the rocks, I don't see why this should be considered any worse than any proplayer trying to make Mech work vs Protoss in a serious game. Brainfarts and overconfidence are going to happen. (from the gameplay perspective; the betting is a complete other topic)
No just no. Think for a second about what Marineking DID see. People defending him with the oh well he didn't see the proxy are IDIOTS. No natural base. No gold bases. Severely delayed spawning pool. Yet throws down a third CC. Your game knowledge is literally nil.
It's a fucking build order designed to work on one fucking map. There's a huge possibility that MK played against this BO for the first time. There are not many BOs besides this backdoor spine crawler rush that his 3CC build didn't somewhat cover, assuming he really recognized the gas/pool timings. Which he just might have not thought about. If he didn't recognize the gas/pool timings, he was kind of in blind flight mode anyways.
Either way, it is pure speculation. If it wasn't for the betting thing, I'm pretty sure noone would have even brought the gameplay up as an indicator for match fixing. But after the suspicious bets somehow everyone remembers that they knew all along from the gameplay. The gameplay is not what's important. What's important is everything else around this match.
For anyone interested, there is a LateGame show on twitch/lycangtv right now with Rechard Lewis/RedEye etc, they will be touching this subject sometime soon.
On March 26 2015 05:23 Swoopae wrote: Otherworld one thing worth noting is we're not all demanding Marineking be thrown out of progaming forever or be thrown in jail or whatever. What we're demanding is a proper investigation, because the circumstantial evidence says he is likely to be guilty. Nobody on TL has the resources to conduct a proper investigation on the ground in Korea. Pinnacle has previously agreed to be cooperative with Kespa and share their data, i'm assuming on betting patterns, IP addresses etc. Kespa have access to the replay at very least and potentially access to the players in questions computers/bank accounts to clear them or gather more evidence etc. i'm sure they could investigate properly if they wanted to, after all, the Savior scandal was exposed through a proper investigation.
If this goes unresolved and uninvestigated, opinions will vary on each implicated player's guilt or innocence, but it's obviously awful for the SC2 scene in general especially if matches continue to get cancelled after ridiculous bets are made and players heavily bet against go on to lose in suspicious fashion.
I do totally agree with you on that, and something should be done to force KeSPA to react at this point. But as you said, scandals are exposed through proper investigations, not through people spreading assumptions as if they were accepted truth. That will only bring bad things for everyone, and that's what some people are doing in this thread.
Yes, people who defend this play and the "coincidence" that there was a voided bet use many assumptions, i agree completely
On March 26 2015 04:15 Big J wrote: I've watched this game for 5years now. I've seen people make the most retarted decisions. Under the assumption that MK really just missed the spine crawler outside of the rocks, I don't see why this should be considered any worse than any proplayer trying to make Mech work vs Protoss in a serious game. Brainfarts and overconfidence are going to happen. (from the gameplay perspective; the betting is a complete other topic)
No just no. Think for a second about what Marineking DID see. People defending him with the oh well he didn't see the proxy are IDIOTS. No natural base. No gold bases. Severely delayed spawning pool. Yet throws down a third CC. Your game knowledge is literally nil.
It's a fucking build order designed to work on one fucking map. There's a huge possibility that MK played against this BO for the first time. There are not many BOs besides this backdoor spine crawler rush that his 3CC build didn't somewhat cover, assuming he really recognized the gas/pool timings. Which he just might have not thought about. If he didn't recognize the gas/pool timings, he was kind of in blind flight mode anyways.
Either way, it is pure speculation. If it wasn't for the betting thing, I'm pretty sure noone would have even brought the gameplay up as an indicator for match fixing. But after the suspicious bets somehow everyone remembers that they knew all along from the gameplay. The gameplay is not what's important. What's important is everything else around this match.
Watch the cast again, it's not a one-off cheese. It's a cheese that Symbol tried on the same map in a televised game. That's now going to be on the radar of any pro who's preparing to play a Bo1 on this map basically until the map is out of the pool.
On March 26 2015 04:53 Penev wrote: Guys, it's not (just) about the spine. Watch the game, try to explain his actions after he scouted what he did.
Try? Okay. He missed the dot on his minimap, nothing to be seen at his own natural or the golds. He then projects his own greedy playstyle on to ByuL, thinking that instead of playing an all-in, the man just expanded to one of his possible 3rd bases first (yes, sometimes players do that) and is going to play a standard game from that point on. He continues to not realise that there is an enemy building on the minimap and completely ignores that there might still be an all-in, going into full MarineKing mode, adding the 3rd CC.
There. I tried. And you know what? Even if that was the legit thought process and exactly what happened, which is a .0001% chance, who would believe that story? Approximately nobody. If he's guilty, that's horrible, but if MK is actually somehow innocent, this whole debacle is also horrible, and he might end up leaving the scene either way.
Nice try Elentos, I'll give you that. But what exactly is your stance in this? The ridiculously "bad" play plus the line movements?
Well, obviously it's far more likely that the match was fixed and MarineKing was supposed to lose all along, because that's the only explanation to the line movements we can reasonably come up with (the other being CJ herO betting all his money on ByuL <.<). The bad play makes it look worse, obviously, although MarineKing has looked far less than stellar this season so far, so there might be some... honesty (?) to the way he reacted. I mean, it's not like he would know before the game that he was gonna get proxy hatched. At least, I hope they don't have the audacity to go that far before the match.
Well, think about it this way: You are going to throw the game but, of course, you want to try and hide that fact. But then, because karma is a bitch, you scout your opponent on a very all in proxy play, what to do now? I personally think that the reason why it appears to be this silly and well, obvious match-fixing-like, is because this is exactly what happened. He was nervous (because he was deliberately going to lose the match), was surprised about Byuls play and ballsed up the hiding part..
And it sucks but I can't make anything else of it :/
On March 26 2015 04:15 Big J wrote: I've watched this game for 5years now. I've seen people make the most retarted decisions. Under the assumption that MK really just missed the spine crawler outside of the rocks, I don't see why this should be considered any worse than any proplayer trying to make Mech work vs Protoss in a serious game. Brainfarts and overconfidence are going to happen. (from the gameplay perspective; the betting is a complete other topic)
Don't you spread bullshit, San's blocking his own nexus, Moon failing his baneling detonations and [insert the name of any Zerg ever here] blowing banelings on his opponent's hatch while doing a 10p bane were obviously all dirty players who very obviously fixed their matches.
All the self baneling explosions. Zergs not building roaches vs Slayers Terran at IPL3 in order to let a foreigner win the tournament.
Maru with the fail wall on Inferno pool vs Life in a freaking game 7 is a mistake almost as big as MKP one :o
On March 26 2015 05:23 Swoopae wrote: Otherworld one thing worth noting is we're not all demanding Marineking be thrown out of progaming forever or be thrown in jail or whatever. What we're demanding is a proper investigation, because the circumstantial evidence says he is likely to be guilty. Nobody on TL has the resources to conduct a proper investigation on the ground in Korea. Pinnacle has previously agreed to be cooperative with Kespa and share their data, i'm assuming on betting patterns, IP addresses etc. Kespa have access to the replay at very least and potentially access to the players in questions computers/bank accounts to clear them or gather more evidence etc. i'm sure they could investigate properly if they wanted to, after all, the Savior scandal was exposed through a proper investigation.
If this goes unresolved and uninvestigated, opinions will vary on each implicated player's guilt or innocence, but it's obviously awful for the SC2 scene in general especially if matches continue to get cancelled after ridiculous bets are made and players heavily bet against go on to lose in suspicious fashion.
I do totally agree with you on that, and something should be done to force KeSPA to react at this point. But as you said, scandals are exposed through proper investigations, not through people spreading assumptions as if they were accepted truth. That will only bring bad things for everyone, and that's what some people are doing in this thread.
Yes, people who defend this play and the "coincidence" that there was a voided bet use many assumptions, i agree completely
I'm left speechless at such sick arguing skills.
It's a fact though, the only people with huge assumptions are the people defending his play considering we had a voided bet also. You may not like it, but that's how it is
edit: and yes, all i have to add to this is to make fun of it, cause that's the only thing these assumptions deserve
On March 26 2015 04:53 Penev wrote: Guys, it's not (just) about the spine. Watch the game, try to explain his actions after he scouted what he did.
Try? Okay. He missed the dot on his minimap, nothing to be seen at his own natural or the golds. He then projects his own greedy playstyle on to ByuL, thinking that instead of playing an all-in, the man just expanded to one of his possible 3rd bases first (yes, sometimes players do that) and is going to play a standard game from that point on. He continues to not realise that there is an enemy building on the minimap and completely ignores that there might still be an all-in, going into full MarineKing mode, adding the 3rd CC.
There. I tried. And you know what? Even if that was the legit thought process and exactly what happened, which is a .0001% chance, who would believe that story? Approximately nobody. If he's guilty, that's horrible, but if MK is actually somehow innocent, this whole debacle is also horrible, and he might end up leaving the scene either way.
Nice try Elentos, I'll give you that. But what exactly is your stance in this? The ridiculously "bad" play plus the line movements?
Well, obviously it's far more likely that the match was fixed and MarineKing was supposed to lose all along, because that's the only explanation to the line movements we can reasonably come up with (the other being CJ herO betting all his money on ByuL <.<). The bad play makes it look worse, obviously, although MarineKing has looked far less than stellar this season so far, so there might be some... honesty (?) to the way he reacted. I mean, it's not like he would know before the game that he was gonna get proxy hatched. At least, I hope they don't have the audacity to go that far before the match.
Well, think about it this way: You are going to throw the game but, of course, you want to try and hide that fact. But then, because karma is a bitch, you scout your opponent on a very all in proxy play, what to do now? I personally think that the reason why it appears to be this silly and well, obvious match-fixing-like, is because this is exactly what happened. He was nervous (because he was deliberately going to lose the match), was surprised about Byuls play and ballsed up the hiding part..
And it sucks but I can't make anything else of it :/
Yeah he looks fucking nervous even before the game begins.
On March 26 2015 04:50 jinorazi wrote: Crawler was not scouted from what I saw as some claim.
The minimap saw it clearly.
Tumor, not crawler.
Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD.
Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression.
i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built.
Even if we ignore the visible crawler.
I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever.
You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought.
If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions.
It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose)
Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking.
Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway?
No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that.
Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing"
Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea.
However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there)
As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game.
Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran.
You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit.
On March 26 2015 05:34 Big J wrote: The gameplay is not what's important. What's important is everything else around this match.
If MKP won the match, then we wouldn't really be talking about match fixing regardless, so it isn't just the betting. And that is why the gameplay matters too, because he lost.
And in the way he lost, with the betting lines being what they were, it points to one thing.
If we are going into his facial expressions/body language territory i cant not mention how fake his facial expressions already look before he even "sees" the creep. (Check the vod @4:50-5:30 gametime)
On March 26 2015 04:15 Big J wrote: I've watched this game for 5years now. I've seen people make the most retarted decisions. Under the assumption that MK really just missed the spine crawler outside of the rocks, I don't see why this should be considered any worse than any proplayer trying to make Mech work vs Protoss in a serious game. Brainfarts and overconfidence are going to happen. (from the gameplay perspective; the betting is a complete other topic)
Don't you spread bullshit, San's blocking his own nexus, Moon failing his baneling detonations and [insert the name of any Zerg ever here] blowing banelings on his opponent's hatch while doing a 10p bane were obviously all dirty players who very obviously fixed their matches.
All the self baneling explosions. Zergs not building roaches vs Slayers Terran at IPL3 in order to let a foreigner win the tournament.
Maru with the fail wall on Inferno pool vs Life in a freaking game 7 is a mistake almost as big as MKP one :o
On March 26 2015 04:15 Big J wrote: I've watched this game for 5years now. I've seen people make the most retarted decisions. Under the assumption that MK really just missed the spine crawler outside of the rocks, I don't see why this should be considered any worse than any proplayer trying to make Mech work vs Protoss in a serious game. Brainfarts and overconfidence are going to happen. (from the gameplay perspective; the betting is a complete other topic)
Don't you spread bullshit, San's blocking his own nexus, Moon failing his baneling detonations and [insert the name of any Zerg ever here] blowing banelings on his opponent's hatch while doing a 10p bane were obviously all dirty players who very obviously fixed their matches.
All the self baneling explosions. Zergs not building roaches vs Slayers Terran at IPL3 in order to let a foreigner win the tournament.
Maru with the fail wall on Inferno pool vs Life in a freaking game 7 is a mistake almost as big as MKP one :o
On March 26 2015 05:23 Swoopae wrote: Otherworld one thing worth noting is we're not all demanding Marineking be thrown out of progaming forever or be thrown in jail or whatever. What we're demanding is a proper investigation, because the circumstantial evidence says he is likely to be guilty. Nobody on TL has the resources to conduct a proper investigation on the ground in Korea. Pinnacle has previously agreed to be cooperative with Kespa and share their data, i'm assuming on betting patterns, IP addresses etc. Kespa have access to the replay at very least and potentially access to the players in questions computers/bank accounts to clear them or gather more evidence etc. i'm sure they could investigate properly if they wanted to, after all, the Savior scandal was exposed through a proper investigation.
If this goes unresolved and uninvestigated, opinions will vary on each implicated player's guilt or innocence, but it's obviously awful for the SC2 scene in general especially if matches continue to get cancelled after ridiculous bets are made and players heavily bet against go on to lose in suspicious fashion.
I do totally agree with you on that, and something should be done to force KeSPA to react at this point. But as you said, scandals are exposed through proper investigations, not through people spreading assumptions as if they were accepted truth. That will only bring bad things for everyone, and that's what some people are doing in this thread.
Yes, people who defend this play and the "coincidence" that there was a voided bet use many assumptions, i agree completely
I'm left speechless at such sick arguing skills.
It's a fact though, the only people with huge assumptions are the people defending his play considering we had a voided bet also. You may not like it, but that's how it is
My standard for human morals is probably be way off, but I think that assuming that a player is ready to risk his career and is ready to risk a real jail sentence (and remember it's fucking MK, he knows for sure that he's a nervous wreck), that is, assuming that a person has no notion of ethics whatsoever, is not that far in terms of assumption size from assuming that a player was ill enough (or just bad) to play like straight-up shit in a Bo1 against a cheesy build. Now obviously all the "he thought he was playing against 1-base bane bust", etc are far-fetched, I agree on that.
Look at the PL VODs of R1 when they show his POV, he's playing with default colors. Like Maru actually, which to me could explain why he didn't see the blue nydus square on the minimap on the blue part of Overgrowth.
On March 26 2015 04:50 jinorazi wrote: Crawler was not scouted from what I saw as some claim.
The minimap saw it clearly.
Tumor, not crawler.
Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD.
Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression.
i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built.
Even if we ignore the visible crawler.
I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever.
You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought.
If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions.
It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose)
Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking.
Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway?
No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that.
Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing"
Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea.
However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there)
As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game.
Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran.
You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit.
Proxy hatches with spine crawlers are no new thing. I don't assume he should know it, HE SHOULD KNOW IT. He also should know that this map has a backdoor, these are no real assumptions, these are facts considering we talk about a progamer who plays and thinks about this game almost 24/7 Your game isn't really all that relevant, it is a different map, but hey just upload it and maybe that will lead to something
On March 26 2015 05:51 travis wrote: holy shit this is blatant
mathematically the betting lines are enough to say there is some sort of fixing then you have one of the most suspicious games ever to go with it
wow what are the chances
I think we are really lucky that Byul decided to go for that build and made the game look so blatanly weird. If this was just another voided bet with the "normal" gameplay it would most likely be ignored by most of the community.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b7btkwr.png)
