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On March 26 2015 05:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:On March 26 2015 05:08 jinorazi wrote:On March 26 2015 05:05 FFW_Rude wrote:On March 26 2015 04:53 jinorazi wrote:On March 26 2015 04:50 BronzeKnee wrote:
[quote]
The minimap saw it clearly.
Tumor, not crawler. Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD. Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression. i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built. Even if we ignore the visible crawler. I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever. You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought. If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions. It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose) Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking. Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway? No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that. Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing" Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea. However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there) As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game. Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran. You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit. Proxy hatches with spine crawlers are no new thing. I don't assume he should know it, HE SHOULD KNOW IT. He also should know that this map has a backdoor, these are no real assumptions, these are facts considering we talk about a progamer who plays and thinks about this game almost 24/7 Your game isn't really all that relevant, it is a different map, but hey just upload it and maybe that will lead to something
Proxy hatcheries with spine crawlers vs terran is NOT a thing ever on any map in any scenario. No good zerg will do it vs a good terran, which both byul and marineking are.
My game vs him is extremely relevant as it shows how he reacts with his scouting scv and reapers in an obviously not fixed matched.
How many terran players do you think have had a 1 base zerg break their rocks on that map? No zerg would ever go into a proleague match and 1base by going through the rocks instead of the depots, it would take too long to kill. If i was marineking and didnt see the creep I would never think hes 1 base rushing my rocks. Maybe byul played marineking on ladder and noticed the same thing I did when I played him in regards to his response to seeing no hatchery?
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On March 26 2015 05:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:On March 26 2015 05:08 jinorazi wrote:On March 26 2015 05:05 FFW_Rude wrote:On March 26 2015 04:53 jinorazi wrote:On March 26 2015 04:50 BronzeKnee wrote:
[quote]
The minimap saw it clearly.
Tumor, not crawler. Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD. Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression. i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built. Even if we ignore the visible crawler. I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever. You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought. If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions. It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose) Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking. Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway? No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that. Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing" Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea. However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there) As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game. Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran. You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit. Proxy hatches with spine crawlers are no new thing. I don't assume he should know it, HE SHOULD KNOW IT. He also should know that this map has a backdoor, these are no real assumptions, these are facts considering we talk about a progamer who plays and thinks about this game almost 24/7 Your game isn't really all that relevant, it is a different map, but hey just upload it and maybe that will lead to something
There was some TvP lately (I don't remember the players) on Expedition Lost with the Protoss building two immortals and the Terran building three bunkers at the front. Then panicking and building 3more bunkers at the back very late. That Protoss player also forgot about the backdoor rocks for quite some time.
Then I think I have watched some Terran's stream lately (Nathanias?) who also said on stream that he keeps on forgetting about the backdoor existing.
Here, what about this game? Fixed as well? Just because flash also can't count 1+1 together that the only thing that makes sense is an early bust? Of course a proplayer should know. But sometimes they don't, or they are too nervous and forget.
http://sc2casts.com/cast16110-Flash-vs-hydra-Best-of-3-2014-GSL-Season-2-Code-A-Group-Stage
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On March 26 2015 05:58 duckk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 05:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:On March 26 2015 05:08 jinorazi wrote:On March 26 2015 05:05 FFW_Rude wrote:On March 26 2015 04:53 jinorazi wrote:
[quote]
Tumor, not crawler. Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD. Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression. i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built. Even if we ignore the visible crawler. I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever. You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought. If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions. It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose) Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking. Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway? No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that. Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing" Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea. However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there) As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game. Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran. You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit. Proxy hatches with spine crawlers are no new thing. I don't assume he should know it, HE SHOULD KNOW IT. He also should know that this map has a backdoor, these are no real assumptions, these are facts considering we talk about a progamer who plays and thinks about this game almost 24/7 Your game isn't really all that relevant, it is a different map, but hey just upload it and maybe that will lead to something Proxy hatcheries with spine crawlers vs terran is NOT a thing ever on any map in any scenario. No good zerg will do it vs a good terran, which both byul and marineking are. My game vs him is extremely relevant as it shows how he reacts with his scouting scv and reapers in an obviously not fixed matched. How many terran players do you think have had a 1 base zerg break their rocks on that map? No zerg would ever go into a proleague match and 1base by going through the rocks instead of the depots, it would take too long to kill. If i was marineking and didnt see the creep I would never think hes 1 base rushing my rocks. Maybe byul played marineking on ladder and noticed the same thing I did when I played him in regards to his response to seeing no hatchery?
They are literally a thing on that exact same map. Listen to Wolf when Byul plants the hatch. He specifically talks about how Symbol messed up the exact same cheese on the exact same map.
In your game you snuck a gold expo against MK, in this game MK scouts the gold expo after spotting no natural and late pool/gas. It's already a completely different situation than the game you're telling us about.
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On March 26 2015 05:58 duckk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 05:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:On March 26 2015 05:08 jinorazi wrote:On March 26 2015 05:05 FFW_Rude wrote:On March 26 2015 04:53 jinorazi wrote:
[quote]
Tumor, not crawler. Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD. Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression. i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built. Even if we ignore the visible crawler. I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever. You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought. If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions. It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose) Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking. Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway? No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that. Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing" Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea. However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there) As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game. Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran. You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit. Proxy hatches with spine crawlers are no new thing. I don't assume he should know it, HE SHOULD KNOW IT. He also should know that this map has a backdoor, these are no real assumptions, these are facts considering we talk about a progamer who plays and thinks about this game almost 24/7 Your game isn't really all that relevant, it is a different map, but hey just upload it and maybe that will lead to something Proxy hatcheries with spine crawlers vs terran is NOT a thing ever on any map in any scenario. No good zerg will do it vs a good terran, which both byul and marineking are. My game vs him is extremely relevant as it shows how he reacts with his scouting scv and reapers in an obviously not fixed matched. How many terran players do you think have had a 1 base zerg break their rocks on that map? No zerg would ever go into a proleague match and 1base by going through the rocks instead of the depots, it would take too long to kill. If i was marineking and didnt see the creep I would never think hes 1 base rushing my rocks. Maybe byul played marineking on ladder and noticed the same thing I did when I played him in regards to his response to seeing no hatchery?
I guess Life and Taeja are horrible players, sry i am out, people simply don't want to believe that "their heroes" could matchfix
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On March 26 2015 06:03 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 05:58 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:On March 26 2015 05:08 jinorazi wrote:On March 26 2015 05:05 FFW_Rude wrote:
[quote]
Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD.
Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression. i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built. Even if we ignore the visible crawler. I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever. You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought. If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions. It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose) Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking. Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway? No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that. Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing" Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea. However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there) As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game. Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran. You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit. Proxy hatches with spine crawlers are no new thing. I don't assume he should know it, HE SHOULD KNOW IT. He also should know that this map has a backdoor, these are no real assumptions, these are facts considering we talk about a progamer who plays and thinks about this game almost 24/7 Your game isn't really all that relevant, it is a different map, but hey just upload it and maybe that will lead to something Proxy hatcheries with spine crawlers vs terran is NOT a thing ever on any map in any scenario. No good zerg will do it vs a good terran, which both byul and marineking are. My game vs him is extremely relevant as it shows how he reacts with his scouting scv and reapers in an obviously not fixed matched. How many terran players do you think have had a 1 base zerg break their rocks on that map? No zerg would ever go into a proleague match and 1base by going through the rocks instead of the depots, it would take too long to kill. If i was marineking and didnt see the creep I would never think hes 1 base rushing my rocks. Maybe byul played marineking on ladder and noticed the same thing I did when I played him in regards to his response to seeing no hatchery? They are literally a thing on that exact same map. Listen to Wolf when Byul plants the hatch. He specifically talks about how Symbol messed up the exact same cheese on the exact same map. In your game you snuck a gold expo against MK, in this game MK scouts the gold expo after spotting no natural and late pool/gas. It's already a completely different situation than the game you're telling us about.
Not a purposeful scout against ByuL. On Expedition Lost it just so happens that the default path for a worker from one base to the other leads past the gold, which doesn't happen on Overgrowth. MarineKing apparently goes for the 360-no-scout approach.
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On March 26 2015 06:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 05:58 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:On March 26 2015 05:08 jinorazi wrote:On March 26 2015 05:05 FFW_Rude wrote:
[quote]
Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD.
Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression. i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built. Even if we ignore the visible crawler. I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever. You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought. If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions. It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose) Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking. Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway? No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that. Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing" Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea. However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there) As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game. Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran. You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit. Proxy hatches with spine crawlers are no new thing. I don't assume he should know it, HE SHOULD KNOW IT. He also should know that this map has a backdoor, these are no real assumptions, these are facts considering we talk about a progamer who plays and thinks about this game almost 24/7 Your game isn't really all that relevant, it is a different map, but hey just upload it and maybe that will lead to something Proxy hatcheries with spine crawlers vs terran is NOT a thing ever on any map in any scenario. No good zerg will do it vs a good terran, which both byul and marineking are. My game vs him is extremely relevant as it shows how he reacts with his scouting scv and reapers in an obviously not fixed matched. How many terran players do you think have had a 1 base zerg break their rocks on that map? No zerg would ever go into a proleague match and 1base by going through the rocks instead of the depots, it would take too long to kill. If i was marineking and didnt see the creep I would never think hes 1 base rushing my rocks. Maybe byul played marineking on ladder and noticed the same thing I did when I played him in regards to his response to seeing no hatchery? I guess Life and Taeja are horrible players, sry i am out, people simply don't want to believe that "their heroes" could matchfix
The thing is, you do it at the front usually. And MK checked for that, twice. There was no creep/hatch/spine in or towards his natural. The backdoor rush is a completely different type of build in that regard.
What duckk says is that he has seen a typical pattern in which way MK deals with situations in which he isn't sure what his opponent is doing. And then played exactly like that in proleague.
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On March 26 2015 06:07 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 06:03 Wuster wrote:On March 26 2015 05:58 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:On March 26 2015 05:08 jinorazi wrote:
[quote]
i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built. Even if we ignore the visible crawler. I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever. You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought. If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions. It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose) Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking. Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway? No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that. Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing" Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea. However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there) As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game. Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran. You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit. Proxy hatches with spine crawlers are no new thing. I don't assume he should know it, HE SHOULD KNOW IT. He also should know that this map has a backdoor, these are no real assumptions, these are facts considering we talk about a progamer who plays and thinks about this game almost 24/7 Your game isn't really all that relevant, it is a different map, but hey just upload it and maybe that will lead to something Proxy hatcheries with spine crawlers vs terran is NOT a thing ever on any map in any scenario. No good zerg will do it vs a good terran, which both byul and marineking are. My game vs him is extremely relevant as it shows how he reacts with his scouting scv and reapers in an obviously not fixed matched. How many terran players do you think have had a 1 base zerg break their rocks on that map? No zerg would ever go into a proleague match and 1base by going through the rocks instead of the depots, it would take too long to kill. If i was marineking and didnt see the creep I would never think hes 1 base rushing my rocks. Maybe byul played marineking on ladder and noticed the same thing I did when I played him in regards to his response to seeing no hatchery? They are literally a thing on that exact same map. Listen to Wolf when Byul plants the hatch. He specifically talks about how Symbol messed up the exact same cheese on the exact same map. In your game you snuck a gold expo against MK, in this game MK scouts the gold expo after spotting no natural and late pool/gas. It's already a completely different situation than the game you're telling us about. Not a purposeful scout against ByuL. On Expedition Lost it just so happens that the default path for a worker from one base to the other leads past the gold, which doesn't happen on Overgrowth. MarineKing apparently goes for the 360-no-scout approach.
But he saw them regardless, that's enough to change his response.
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On March 26 2015 05:51 travis wrote:
holy shit this is blatant
mathematically the betting lines are enough to say there is some sort of fixing
then you have one of the most suspicious games ever to go with it
wow what are the chances
edit: ]honestly the game is hilarious. how is he supposed to explain what he was doing. why are those reapers just sitting there LOL
This is the main thing I noticed as well. Everyone is harping on the yellow dot but it really looks like he's trying to avoid going near the rocks after he scouts . He just scouted the pool/gas timing, so there's no reason to be keeping the reapers at the front wall. Like, the pool isn't even done when the first reaper is out...
He even briefly scouts his natural, yet he still doesn't check the rocks (the only other obvious route of attack) before throwing down the 3rd CC..
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On March 26 2015 06:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 06:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:58 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:On March 26 2015 05:08 jinorazi wrote:
[quote]
i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built. Even if we ignore the visible crawler. I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever. You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought. If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions. It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose) Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking. Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway? No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that. Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing" Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea. However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there) As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game. Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran. You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit. Proxy hatches with spine crawlers are no new thing. I don't assume he should know it, HE SHOULD KNOW IT. He also should know that this map has a backdoor, these are no real assumptions, these are facts considering we talk about a progamer who plays and thinks about this game almost 24/7 Your game isn't really all that relevant, it is a different map, but hey just upload it and maybe that will lead to something Proxy hatcheries with spine crawlers vs terran is NOT a thing ever on any map in any scenario. No good zerg will do it vs a good terran, which both byul and marineking are. My game vs him is extremely relevant as it shows how he reacts with his scouting scv and reapers in an obviously not fixed matched. How many terran players do you think have had a 1 base zerg break their rocks on that map? No zerg would ever go into a proleague match and 1base by going through the rocks instead of the depots, it would take too long to kill. If i was marineking and didnt see the creep I would never think hes 1 base rushing my rocks. Maybe byul played marineking on ladder and noticed the same thing I did when I played him in regards to his response to seeing no hatchery? I guess Life and Taeja are horrible players, sry i am out, people simply don't want to believe that "their heroes" could matchfix The thing is, you do it at the front usually. And MK checked for that, twice. There was no creep/hatch/spine in or towards his natural. The backdoor rush is a completely different type of build in that regard. What duckk says is that he has seen a typical pattern in which way MK deals with situations in which he isn't sure what his opponent is doing. And then played exactly like that in proleague.
This, players like life and taeja play on such a high level where sometimes doing stupid builds that would get laughed at in mid korean gm are perfect for countering specific players and play styles. Spine crawler rushes may have certain places for these scenarios, but never to 1 base rush rocks which have 2000 hp and then you have to unburrow them and run up a ramp. Nestea's fast lair spine crawler rush on that flat two colored map is a pretty good example of this.
Look at when the scv scout enters the base of byul, marineking literally leans in next to his monitor to look. That alone (to me) shows that there is a legitimate chance that his vision is weak enough to mistake a spine crawler for an overlord on a minimap and to not notice the tile change of creep.
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On March 26 2015 06:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 06:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:58 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:On March 26 2015 05:08 jinorazi wrote:
[quote]
i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built. Even if we ignore the visible crawler. I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever. You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought. If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions. It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose) Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking. Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway? No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that. Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing" Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea. However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there) As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game. Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran. You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit. Proxy hatches with spine crawlers are no new thing. I don't assume he should know it, HE SHOULD KNOW IT. He also should know that this map has a backdoor, these are no real assumptions, these are facts considering we talk about a progamer who plays and thinks about this game almost 24/7 Your game isn't really all that relevant, it is a different map, but hey just upload it and maybe that will lead to something Proxy hatcheries with spine crawlers vs terran is NOT a thing ever on any map in any scenario. No good zerg will do it vs a good terran, which both byul and marineking are. My game vs him is extremely relevant as it shows how he reacts with his scouting scv and reapers in an obviously not fixed matched. How many terran players do you think have had a 1 base zerg break their rocks on that map? No zerg would ever go into a proleague match and 1base by going through the rocks instead of the depots, it would take too long to kill. If i was marineking and didnt see the creep I would never think hes 1 base rushing my rocks. Maybe byul played marineking on ladder and noticed the same thing I did when I played him in regards to his response to seeing no hatchery? I guess Life and Taeja are horrible players, sry i am out, people simply don't want to believe that "their heroes" could matchfix The thing is, you do it at the front usually. And MK checked for that, twice. There was no creep/hatch/spine in or towards his natural. The backdoor rush is a completely different type of build in that regard. What duckk says is that he has seen a typical pattern in which way MK deals with situations in which he isn't sure what his opponent is doing. And then played exactly like that in proleague.
Sure, you usually do it at the front. But when he doesn't scout it there, why wouldn't he scout around more?
He knows there is a hatch somewhere, and pls don't tell me he maybe didn't understand the pool timing.
Maybe he should post that replay then, i doubt it would add anything, but why should we trust this statement?
I also agree that the gameplay itself is not the most important part, but if you add the betting line to it (which is actually way more important) the gameplay gets important too.
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He scouts he has to be proxy hatching, doesn't scout for the hatch, then he sees the spine and creep without any response for the longest time. He also inexplicable doesn't do anything with his reapers. Why would any player open with reapers and keep them unmoving in his base, especially cause he scouted the pool timing and knew 100% speedlings could not be out, thereby making it so there was no possible way zerg could kill them.
Either he threw the game or he played at silver league level. Given how much MK has played, I know which one is more likely, though of course there's no absolute proof of anything currently
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On March 26 2015 06:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 06:07 Big J wrote:On March 26 2015 06:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:58 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:
[quote]
Even if we ignore the visible crawler.
I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever.
You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought.
If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions. It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose) Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking. Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway? No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that. Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing" Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea. However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there) As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game. Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran. You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit. Proxy hatches with spine crawlers are no new thing. I don't assume he should know it, HE SHOULD KNOW IT. He also should know that this map has a backdoor, these are no real assumptions, these are facts considering we talk about a progamer who plays and thinks about this game almost 24/7 Your game isn't really all that relevant, it is a different map, but hey just upload it and maybe that will lead to something Proxy hatcheries with spine crawlers vs terran is NOT a thing ever on any map in any scenario. No good zerg will do it vs a good terran, which both byul and marineking are. My game vs him is extremely relevant as it shows how he reacts with his scouting scv and reapers in an obviously not fixed matched. How many terran players do you think have had a 1 base zerg break their rocks on that map? No zerg would ever go into a proleague match and 1base by going through the rocks instead of the depots, it would take too long to kill. If i was marineking and didnt see the creep I would never think hes 1 base rushing my rocks. Maybe byul played marineking on ladder and noticed the same thing I did when I played him in regards to his response to seeing no hatchery? I guess Life and Taeja are horrible players, sry i am out, people simply don't want to believe that "their heroes" could matchfix The thing is, you do it at the front usually. And MK checked for that, twice. There was no creep/hatch/spine in or towards his natural. The backdoor rush is a completely different type of build in that regard. What duckk says is that he has seen a typical pattern in which way MK deals with situations in which he isn't sure what his opponent is doing. And then played exactly like that in proleague. Sure, you usually do it at the front. But when he doesn't scout it there, why wouldn't he scout around more? He knows there is a hatch somewhere, and pls don't tell me he maybe didn't understand the pool timing. Maybe he should post that replay then, i doubt it would add anything, but why should we trust this statement? I also agree that the gameplay itself is not the most important part, but if you add the betting line to it (which is actually way more important) the gameplay gets important too.
I think that the replay can be legit useful. If it turns out that going 3CC off of a reaper expo against 1-base Zerg is a normal reaction for MarineKing then it adds a new perspective.
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By the way Richard Lewis basically said that we were probably facing a "less glamorous", in his own words, version of the sAviOr scandal, but that the elements given to him by tournaments organizers and olimoley weren't enough to publish his article.
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I'm under the impression the Olimoley league scandal is totally seperate to any match fixing going on in korean major leagues as one is players throwing games and the other is bettors using delayed streams on minor tournaments to bet after results are known if thats wrong someone correct me
Just tuned in late to the Lycan stream anyone care to summarise anything relevant said so far?
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On March 26 2015 06:26 Swoopae wrote:
I'm under the impression the Olimoley league scandal is totally seperate to any match fixing going on in korean major leagues as one is players throwing games and the other is bettors using delayed streams on minor tournaments to bet after results are known if thats wrong someone correct me
Just tuned in late to the Lycan stream anyone care to summarise anything relevant said so far?
Not much, that basically went like a more concise, polite and elaborate version of what posters said on TL until Richard Lewis talked.
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On March 26 2015 06:26 Swoopae wrote:
I'm under the impression the Olimoley league scandal is totally seperate to any match fixing going on in korean major leagues as one is players throwing games and the other is bettors using delayed streams on minor tournaments to bet after results are known if thats wrong someone correct me
Just tuned in late to the Lycan stream anyone care to summarise anything relevant said so far?
Nothing conclusive unfortunately, actually less informative than this thread.
Edit: Richard Lewis said that it surely looks bad.
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On March 26 2015 06:29 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 06:26 Swoopae wrote:
I'm under the impression the Olimoley league scandal is totally seperate to any match fixing going on in korean major leagues as one is players throwing games and the other is bettors using delayed streams on minor tournaments to bet after results are known if thats wrong someone correct me
Just tuned in late to the Lycan stream anyone care to summarise anything relevant said so far? Nothing conclusive unfortunately, actually less informative than this thread. Edit: Richard Lewis said that it surely looks bad.
Lewis was talking about the betting and matchfixing in general, not restricted to the MKP thing.
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On March 26 2015 06:32 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 06:29 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 06:26 Swoopae wrote:
I'm under the impression the Olimoley league scandal is totally seperate to any match fixing going on in korean major leagues as one is players throwing games and the other is bettors using delayed streams on minor tournaments to bet after results are known if thats wrong someone correct me
Just tuned in late to the Lycan stream anyone care to summarise anything relevant said so far? Nothing conclusive unfortunately, actually less informative than this thread. Edit: Richard Lewis said that it surely looks bad. Lewis was talking about the betting and matchfixing in general, not restricted to the MKP thing.
Yes he did, he also said that that looked bad as well. Before the match fixing in general part.
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Yeah ok. I hope they talk more about it. Match fixing is an infinitely bigger deal than viewbotting
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EPT
