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On March 26 2015 04:05 maGicc wrote:
Sometimes i really think you people are just trolling for the sake of it, pretending to see "nothing wrong" with the game.
And i dont even want to mention that the game itself is only a one piece in this corrupted matchfixing puzzle. At this point chances that Proleague is rigged is near 100%.
All the evidence is there, exept for the confessions from the guilty people. You just need to get rid of your fanboyism and "love for the esports" and you will see it.
Concerning the game itself :
1) MKP knows its 1 base zerg proxy hatch build
2) There is a spine crawler visible on the MKP's minimap for 50+ seconds.
3) MKP's reapers still afk, he is not moving them around, he KNOWS its 1 base zerg build and yet he never attemps to scout the rocks?
4) There is a zerg creep in a freaking MKP's base for a good 10 seconds before he starts to reacting
Not to mention that he goes 3 CC KNOWING its 1 base proxy hatch without getting a single bunker and then adds his horrible acting when its already too late.
There is a below 1% chance that the match was legit.
everyone sees something wrong with the game its if that's enough to prove match fixing or if it can be explained by stupidity that people are unsure of.
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I've watched this game for 5years now. I've seen people make the most retarted decisions. Under the assumption that MK really just missed the spine crawler outside of the rocks, I don't see why this should be considered any worse than any proplayer trying to make Mech work vs Protoss in a serious game. Brainfarts and overconfidence are going to happen. (from the gameplay perspective; the betting is a complete other topic)
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On March 26 2015 04:15 Big J wrote:
I've watched this game for 5years now. I've seen people make the most retarted decisions. Under the assumption that MK really just missed the spine crawler outside of the rocks, I don't see why this should be considered any worse than any proplayer trying to make Mech work vs Protoss in a serious game. Brainfarts and overconfidence are going to happen. (from the gameplay perspective; the betting is a complete other topic)
Don't you spread bullshit, San's blocking his own nexus, Moon failing his baneling detonations and [insert the name of any Zerg ever here] blowing banelings on his opponent's hatch while doing a 10p bane were obviously all dirty players who very obviously fixed their matches.
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To me, it's an obvious throw. What all in could he have possible held with what he did? He would die to a bane bust despite what people claim. Just because you keep your reapers in your base and are about to make hellions doesn't make it the "ideal" response to a baneling bust. A one base baneling bust would hit before his first 2 hellions got out. You need some kind of extra wall to buy time and to spot/distract/delay it with reapers as much as possible. It would be a sloppy hold at best. Any other all in ( roaches.. in this case, spines) he would essentially 100% lose to. He should have been checking the rocks anyway, not just for a proxy, but just for attacking units breaking the rocks. He avoided the rocks like the plague. Any player's thought process would eventually lead them to check the rocks after nothing showed at the front. He never did. Nothing he did made sense.
On another point, his face looks excessively strained and he is squinting in an overly analytic way at the screen the whole time as if he is playing some foreign game. As if he has no idea what's happening and he is racking his brain to figure it out. He never looks like this. It's terrible acting in my opinion. Then he doesn't even look disappointed or mad after he loses, which is so contrary to his normal self. He just looks chill and whatever about it, when it should have been one of the most embarrassing losses of his career. He just walks off emotionless like he just wanted to get out of there when he normally sits in the booth writhing in frustration after a loss.
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maGicc, One of us has worked in the legal system and been on the bar. The other hasn't (I presume?).
You might disagree with me, but to say I'm delusional is non-sense. Fact is, you still haven't provided a single hard piece of evidence to support MarineKing being involved in the betting scandal, outside circumstantial conjecture and opinion.
If you can't scroll up, I'll quote from a previous post of mine...
FYI: Just because people say there isn't enough proof to convict, does not mean they don't believe someone did something. Judges let go people all the time, who they believe likely caused an offence, but they cannot sufficiently prove it...
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On March 26 2015 04:17 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 04:15 Big J wrote:
I've watched this game for 5years now. I've seen people make the most retarted decisions. Under the assumption that MK really just missed the spine crawler outside of the rocks, I don't see why this should be considered any worse than any proplayer trying to make Mech work vs Protoss in a serious game. Brainfarts and overconfidence are going to happen. (from the gameplay perspective; the betting is a complete other topic) Don't you spread bullshit, San's blocking his own nexus, Moon failing his baneling detonations and [insert the name of any Zerg ever here] blowing banelings on his opponent's hatch while doing a 10p bane were obviously all dirty players who very obviously fixed their matches.
everyone is getting really worked up over analyzing the play. the play isn't relevant. if this game had been a perfect macro game where MKP had lost by a series of tiny mistakes, it wouldn't change the fact that someone knew he was going to lose, and he did.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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On March 26 2015 04:15 Big J wrote:
I've watched this game for 5years now. I've seen people make the most retarted decisions. Under the assumption that MK really just missed the spine crawler outside of the rocks, I don't see why this should be considered any worse than any proplayer trying to make Mech work vs Protoss in a serious game. Brainfarts and overconfidence are going to happen. (from the gameplay perspective; the betting is a complete other topic)
Cause mech vs protoss actually can work
A 3cc build without ANY scouting vs an obvious proxy hatch, not building bunkers or anything really will never ever work
Sry but i totally agree with magicc here, if you can't accept that this game is absolutely suspicious and almost not explainable you probably are too emotionally invested to really argue about it.
This gameplay isn't just "bad", it's a lot worse than that.
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People, please remember this particular sentence from the OP:
As usual: Post with respect. Don't bash other posters.
And let's just repeat this AGAIN. Besides the voiding of the bet, in MK's play, by far the most suspicious thing is NOT that he missed the spine, it's the not scouting for the proxy after he scouted the late pool and no natural. People, Big J, that's just ABSURD. I think this can only mean 2 things:
1. MK was sick
2. He threw.
The second seems a whole lot more probable considering he said nothing of not feeling wel in his facebook rant and, you know,
THE VERY SUSPICIOUS LINE MOVEMENT ON THE BET.
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Lets not forget the fact that game itself is never a good enough proof of the matchfix.
But lets be real, we have
1) Ridiculously shady line movement, Pinnacle voiding the bet
2) The game itself is a textbook example of a throw. Its hard to imagine the more "throwy" match. I've explained before why the game became like that - its because MKP scouted the spine behind rocks and had no choice but to pretend he did not see it. Nothing in this game adds up if you break it down with logic.
3) We already had a history of shady line movements in the Proleague
4) Rekrul confirms that matchfixing is rampant in the Proleague, espessialy amongs players who cant win $ legitly in the individual leagues (MKP fits the description perfectly)
And yet people are still "waiting for the evidence". Holy fucking dayum.
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It's sad to see people trying to defend MK. This is so obvious. Maybe it's the idea of trying to be loyal to the game or something like that, but you're not being loyal by defending or trying to look for ways it isn't 100% true. You're encouraging this kind of stuff and you are letting the game be corrupted. MK has a long history with the western community and he has a lot of fans, but no one is perfect. People will make big mistakes throughout their lives and it does indeed look like this was one of his big mistakes.
Being his fans, as I am, I don't feel obligated to forgive him. He disrespected all of us by doing what he did. You shouldn't feel a sense of loyalty to someone who betrays your trust.
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By MK. Better to lose with Prime than lose for $
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I think at this point, it's not so much as considering whether or not the evidence is sufficiently substantial; it's a matter of whether a verdict will be made. We can posit whether the evidence is sufficient that MarineKing was matchfixing all the live long day, and frankly, the evidence heavily points against MK, but the fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, this thread, until proven otherwise, doesn't mean much. A verdict should be had.
...
So...
...Yeah.
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On March 26 2015 02:48 hZCube wrote:Cant really believe there are still "special" people who don't fully understand what the word certain, proof or convinced actually mean. FYI: Just because people say there isn't enough proof to convict, does not mean they don't believe someone did something. Judges let go people all the time, who they believe likely caused an offence, but they cannot sufficiently prove it... If, in this case, you genuinely believe you have satisfied a reasonable burden of proof to be completely certain (clue: completely means 100%..) of what happened, and you believe you have done that to a level sufficient to ruin a previously good players career. Well, then I guess we just live in a different world. I'm glad you're not a Judge.
The burden of proof for a speeding ticket is a lot lower than murder, and for good reason. No one is going to jail here, the burden of proof doesn't need to be that high.
The facts:
1)The betting line was outrageously skewed.
2) MKP's mini map revealed the all-in long before it actually hit his base.
3) He did not react to a non-standard build after SCV scouting.
4) Knowing his opponent did not expand normally, he drops a third CC.
Those are the only facts we have. We don't know if he really saw it, we don't know if he was pretending to be surprised or actually surprised, we don't know any of that.
But do I really have to be Sherlock Holmes to put 1 and 1 together? Occam's razor says he threw the match based on what we know, because that requires the fewest assumptions. And that is more than enough for this scenario.
You guys are making up some really ridiculous stories trying to explain away those facts. The simplest explanation here, which happens to be the best, is that he threw the match.
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People who say that it's not proven are missing the point. You can't prove anything.
Even if MKP comes out and publically admits it there's still a chance that he's innocent. Maybe a crime syndicate is holding his girlfriend hostage and blackmailing him to admit to something he didn't do. Or Kespa convinced him to say it so that the fans see that they are actively fighting matchfixing. Or he got kidnapped by aliens and had his memories altered.
All evidence is circumstantial and potentially inconclusive. Which is why if you start from the position that you're 100% sure MKP would never cheat you'll end up with the conclusion that he's innocent. After all all these seemingly suspicious events have alternative explanations, which, however unlikely, are still more likely than MKP cheating (which has a probability of 0%).
Now, if you start with the assumption that there's a 0.1% chance MKP would participate in match-fixing during his career you'll end up with the conclusion that he's not unlikely to have done so in this game.
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On March 26 2015 04:18 hZCube wrote:
Fact is, you still haven't provided a single hard piece of evidence to support MarineKing being involved in the betting scandal..
Would that be a MKP's bank statement with a note "for the matchfixing"? What exactly qualifies as the "hard" evidence in your mind?
We have everything that we possible CAN have, except the confession or the confirmation from Kespa. Chances are, we are never going to get either. So we should just ignore everything else while chanting the "innocent till proven guilty" mantra?
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On March 26 2015 04:17 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 04:15 Big J wrote:
I've watched this game for 5years now. I've seen people make the most retarted decisions. Under the assumption that MK really just missed the spine crawler outside of the rocks, I don't see why this should be considered any worse than any proplayer trying to make Mech work vs Protoss in a serious game. Brainfarts and overconfidence are going to happen. (from the gameplay perspective; the betting is a complete other topic) Don't you spread bullshit, San's blocking his own nexus, Moon failing his baneling detonations and [insert the name of any Zerg ever here] blowing banelings on his opponent's hatch while doing a 10p bane were obviously all dirty players who very obviously fixed their matches.
That made me feel sad about Rogue e...
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On March 26 2015 04:23 maGicc wrote:
Lets not forget the fact that game itself is never a good enough proof of the matchfix.
But lets be real, we have
1) Ridiculously shady line movement, Pinnacle voiding the bet
2) The game itself is a textbook example of a throw. Its hard to imagine the more "throwy" match. I've explained before why the game became like that - its because MKP scouted the spine behind rocks and had no choice but to pretend he did not see it. Nothing in this game adds up if you break it down with logic.
3) We already had a history of shady line movements in the Prolegue
4) Rekrul confirms that matchfixing is rampant in the Prolegue, espessialy amongs players who cant win $ legitly in the individual leagues (MKP fits the description perfectly)
And yet people are still "waiting for the evidence". Holy fucking dayum.
Sure, your four points are true (although #2 can be discussed, I wouldn't call this a "textbook" example because a textbook example of a throw would be a player throwing without anyone noticing it ; the game, or at least part of it, can also be explained otherwise), but you lack something : the link between them.
Let me do a quick analogy : (1)a medical doctor prescribes medication for a patient that is not adapted to the patient's state, and (2)after taking the medication, said patient suffers from nausea, stomach ache, etc etc. It totally looks like the unadapted medication is the cause of the patient's nausea. But as long as you can't prove that it is factually the cause of, that is directly linked with, the patient's issues (ie was this medication known for causing such effects in some patients? etc), then we can't say for sure that there was a medical fault and condemn the doctor. The whole thing is in the link between the two events.
Here, we have (1)strange bets that indicates that the bets, the bets, not the game, are not placed on a fair basis, and (2)a strange game, that displays terrible and hardly explainable play from MK. But we lack the link that would allow us to say for sure, or at least with a very high probability, that there is a link, a correlation between the shady bets and the shady game. That's why people are 'waiting for evidence'. Because we have to. You can be suspicious, there is no problem with that ; looking at the game and the bets, it's highly understable that one would be suspicious. But there's a difference between being suspecting and accusing, and there's another difference between accusing and pitchforking/condemning/banning/whatever. What we see is enough to ask for further explanation and inquiry. It isn't enough to straight-up witch-burn MarineKing.
edit :
On March 26 2015 04:30 Spect8rCraft wrote:
I think at this point, it's not so much as considering whether or not the evidence is sufficiently substantial; it's a matter of whether a verdict will be made. We can posit whether the evidence is sufficient that MarineKing was matchfixing all the live long day, and frankly, the evidence heavily points against MK, but the fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, this thread, until proven otherwise, doesn't mean much. A verdict should be had.
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So...
...Yeah.
That's true as well. I think that we have reached a point where we really need some explanations by KeSPA and such.
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^ Ever heard of the Bayesian probability?
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Italy12246 Posts
On March 26 2015 04:15 Big J wrote:
I've watched this game for 5years now. I've seen people make the most retarted decisions. Under the assumption that MK really just missed the spine crawler outside of the rocks, I don't see why this should be considered any worse than any proplayer trying to make Mech work vs Protoss in a serious game. Brainfarts and overconfidence are going to happen. (from the gameplay perspective; the betting is a complete other topic)
Going 3cc, maybe, i can see that, especially since MK is a moron. Doing nothing with the reapers is just not reasonable in any way shape or form. At least he coudl have countered and "accidentally" gotten surrounded or something.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Chill/DSC00020_640x480.jpg)
