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On January 15 2015 12:00 ilikeredheads wrote:
Sc2 is in a decline and having this restrictive barrier to their premiere tournament is just moronic.
And does it matter to you that this "restrictive barrier" wasn't around all of 2014 when the decline was occurring? Richard Lewis was certain GOM wouldn't even be around this year so arguments that this will just make the decline go faster shouldn't be that persuasive.
On January 15 2015 17:45 xM(Z wrote:
15$ is around 5% of a monthly paycheck ...
go pirates!
You are making $300 a month? Just $75 a week? Only $15 a day? How sad. On the bright side, the subscription covers roughly three months so that averages it down to under 2% each month.
On January 15 2015 18:39 KeksX wrote:
You hate "GREED"!?
....................... Yeah, thatss totally why GOM is doing it. That has been their plan all along. Get those MASSIVE 15k viewers and then force everyone to sub! Hahahaha!
I don't know about other gaming communities but I've always been stunned by the level of entitlement from some SC2 fans. Gimme, gimme, gimme. Just ask Sundance.
On January 15 2015 18:52 Lazare1969 wrote:
You do realize that I'm defending GOM's action as a standard business decision, right?
You know, I think you might actually believe that.
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On January 16 2015 00:25 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 18:39 KeksX wrote:
You hate "GREED"!?
....................... Yeah, thatss totally why GOM is doing it. That has been their plan all along. Get those MASSIVE 15k viewers and then force everyone to sub! Hahahaha!
I don't know about other gaming communities but I've always been stunned by the level of entitlement from some SC2 fans. Gimme, gimme, gimme. Just ask Sundance.
I'm not sure why you're quoting me on this, I was being sarcastic.
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On January 16 2015 00:25 dvorakftw wrote:
I don't know about other gaming communities but I've always been stunned by the level of entitlement from some SC2 fans. Gimme, gimme, gimme. Just ask Sundance.
Shure, other Gaming Communities are tortured by 360p. Oh wait, LoL, Dota II, CS:GO, the large Minecraft Community, MMO Community. Nobody there would ever think about enforcing low quality streams on their viewers. And hell, even in SC II nobody besides GOM would ever do it. Even the smallest Gaming Communities like Halo and Co stream in HD for all.
There is a standard for streaming and GOM was allways below it with its medium 30fps. But that was okay, because people were not only used to it, but acceptet it. With the change they broke the lines, that their customers where used to. And not only that, they also deliver besides HD (what is free in all other scenes and SC II streams ), there VOD System is TRASH since they started it and they do not care about it. When there is so much free content with the same or above standard, you will allways aks yourself, why pay it?
And yeah, why pay for a product, that its his flaws (VOD System), when they do not want to improve it. Normally a company tries to improve their product to gain more customers and hold the old ones, but GOM never improved. And now they became worse. You either have to pay more for 1080p or yo u pay the same and get less quality.
And you are allways right, when you say 15$ for normal or 23$ for 1080p, who cares in the US or western EU (when he is old enough for paypall and erns his own money). But people care, because even when you pay 15$, you do not want something, that becomes worse each year. And GOM became worse this year and it became seriously worse without any tries to improve since they started the twitch VOD System.
If you want to hide behind a paywall do it. But dont be suprised when the streamchat writes Medium or Riot, because he had 1 year medium qualitiy for free and acceptet it as a standard and after you block the chat, do not write "totally owned". It is not only bad communication. It is very arrogant behaviour, that makes the people mad.
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On January 15 2015 23:52 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 23:03 Spektor wrote:On January 15 2015 18:28 KeksX wrote:On January 15 2015 11:49 Spektor wrote:On January 15 2015 11:17 dvorakftw wrote:On January 15 2015 10:33 Lazare1969 wrote:
As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money. Wow. I haven't bothered with these forums in months but that was such a massive level of stupidity I had to log in to mock it. You may have been told all your life that you're a very special snowflake but it's time to get over yourself. The law of economics isn't going to make an exception because you feel slighted. If you guys want GOM to join NASL and IPL, just keep right on. Why are you being so defensive when GOM was the one that broke one of the WCS rules of stream quality? How about having a discussion without belittling someone else? Because they did NOT BREAK ANY RULES. READ! Goddamnit, READ! If you want a serious discussion then let's discuss how TotalBiscuits pulls more viewers on his LotV tournament than GSL on a stacked day. Let's discuss how everyone here jumps the hate bandwagon even though they have no idea WHY GOM made that decision. Let's discuss how people say "X and Y are how GOM makes money, I know because I'm registered on TeamLiquid". Let's discuss how no one here realizes that what GOM does is not breaking any rule, but people make it look like GOM is an illegal drug ring now. Let's discuss how people say that eSports will never be legitimate even though this practice is perfectly normal on traditional sports. Let alone the fact that one SC2 league does not represent the entirety of eSports. Let's discuss how GOM has used money from other eSports titles to support SC2. Let's discuss, after all these things considered, how this should be more Blizzard's fault for letting this "loophole" kind of thing happening and giving room for someone, whoever that might have been for GOM, to decide to block off free 720p for global viewers. Because I've said all these things, but all I hear back is "They're breaking mah WCS rullz!!" Blizzard advertised free 720p, they stream at 360p. That is breaking the rules Blizzard set up. How about we turn down that anger. I was using logic, you are using anger. Trying to belittle my argument with exaggeration. It says WCS Global Events. WCS KR/GSL is NOT a global event. I quote myself. Also: Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 22:38 Growiel wrote:On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this? Because Koreans get Korean ads and also sponsorship money and TV subscription revenue, while we have to pay the only way we can: via Twitch. Hot6 is Korean only, I doubt that any of their money goes to the English crew. That is a very good point which I just thought of on my way home. GOM's main sponsors don't really target EU/NA viewers. Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 21:43 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On January 15 2015 20:42 KeksX wrote:On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this? Different pricings for different regions. you didnt explain anything you merely reworded my statement. Edit: Thank you KeksX for the post below this one  . Same reason why on steam you sometimes find that other regions pay way less than the average EU citizen. I was not aware of this, unrelated question do you happen to know how many korean viewers GSL average? About that: I sadly have no idea how many korean viewers they have. On twitch they have a bit that like to troll the chat, but I guess most watch via YT and I can't see those numbers.
How about you read:
Two global premier leagues in Korea: GSL by GOM eXP and SPOTV Games Individual League
http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/articles/2015-starcraft-ii-world-championship-series
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On January 16 2015 01:11 Spektor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 23:52 KeksX wrote:On January 15 2015 23:03 Spektor wrote:On January 15 2015 18:28 KeksX wrote:On January 15 2015 11:49 Spektor wrote:On January 15 2015 11:17 dvorakftw wrote:On January 15 2015 10:33 Lazare1969 wrote:
As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money. Wow. I haven't bothered with these forums in months but that was such a massive level of stupidity I had to log in to mock it. You may have been told all your life that you're a very special snowflake but it's time to get over yourself. The law of economics isn't going to make an exception because you feel slighted. If you guys want GOM to join NASL and IPL, just keep right on. Why are you being so defensive when GOM was the one that broke one of the WCS rules of stream quality? How about having a discussion without belittling someone else? Because they did NOT BREAK ANY RULES. READ! Goddamnit, READ! If you want a serious discussion then let's discuss how TotalBiscuits pulls more viewers on his LotV tournament than GSL on a stacked day. Let's discuss how everyone here jumps the hate bandwagon even though they have no idea WHY GOM made that decision. Let's discuss how people say "X and Y are how GOM makes money, I know because I'm registered on TeamLiquid". Let's discuss how no one here realizes that what GOM does is not breaking any rule, but people make it look like GOM is an illegal drug ring now. Let's discuss how people say that eSports will never be legitimate even though this practice is perfectly normal on traditional sports. Let alone the fact that one SC2 league does not represent the entirety of eSports. Let's discuss how GOM has used money from other eSports titles to support SC2. Let's discuss, after all these things considered, how this should be more Blizzard's fault for letting this "loophole" kind of thing happening and giving room for someone, whoever that might have been for GOM, to decide to block off free 720p for global viewers. Because I've said all these things, but all I hear back is "They're breaking mah WCS rullz!!" Blizzard advertised free 720p, they stream at 360p. That is breaking the rules Blizzard set up. How about we turn down that anger. I was using logic, you are using anger. Trying to belittle my argument with exaggeration. It says WCS Global Events. WCS KR/GSL is NOT a global event. I quote myself. READ! Goddamnit, READ! Also: On January 15 2015 22:38 Growiel wrote:On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this? Because Koreans get Korean ads and also sponsorship money and TV subscription revenue, while we have to pay the only way we can: via Twitch. Hot6 is Korean only, I doubt that any of their money goes to the English crew. That is a very good point which I just thought of on my way home. GOM's main sponsors don't really target EU/NA viewers. On January 15 2015 21:43 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On January 15 2015 20:42 KeksX wrote:On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this? Different pricings for different regions. you didnt explain anything you merely reworded my statement. Edit: Thank you KeksX for the post below this one . Same reason why on steam you sometimes find that other regions pay way less than the average EU citizen. I was not aware of this, unrelated question do you happen to know how many korean viewers GSL average? About that: I sadly have no idea how many korean viewers they have. On twitch they have a bit that like to troll the chat, but I guess most watch via YT and I can't see those numbers. How about you read: Show nested quote +Two global premier leagues in Korea: GSL by GOM eXP and SPOTV Games Individual League http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/articles/2015-starcraft-ii-world-championship-series
WCS partner events were successful last year at tying in tournaments outside the WCS league structure into the overall WCS umbrella. The WCS Points System will be adjusted to balance the points between GSL, SPOTV Games Individual League, and WCS Premier League. The points distribution for the partner WCS Global Events will remain the same (7000, 4000, 1800), but the requirements for WCS Global Events have been updated and more defined.
They make a clear distinction between Global Leagues and Global "Partner" Events.
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On January 15 2015 23:52 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 23:03 Spektor wrote:On January 15 2015 18:28 KeksX wrote:On January 15 2015 11:49 Spektor wrote:On January 15 2015 11:17 dvorakftw wrote:On January 15 2015 10:33 Lazare1969 wrote:
As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money. Wow. I haven't bothered with these forums in months but that was such a massive level of stupidity I had to log in to mock it. You may have been told all your life that you're a very special snowflake but it's time to get over yourself. The law of economics isn't going to make an exception because you feel slighted. If you guys want GOM to join NASL and IPL, just keep right on. Why are you being so defensive when GOM was the one that broke one of the WCS rules of stream quality? How about having a discussion without belittling someone else? Because they did NOT BREAK ANY RULES. READ! Goddamnit, READ! If you want a serious discussion then let's discuss how TotalBiscuits pulls more viewers on his LotV tournament than GSL on a stacked day. Let's discuss how everyone here jumps the hate bandwagon even though they have no idea WHY GOM made that decision. Let's discuss how people say "X and Y are how GOM makes money, I know because I'm registered on TeamLiquid". Let's discuss how no one here realizes that what GOM does is not breaking any rule, but people make it look like GOM is an illegal drug ring now. Let's discuss how people say that eSports will never be legitimate even though this practice is perfectly normal on traditional sports. Let alone the fact that one SC2 league does not represent the entirety of eSports. Let's discuss how GOM has used money from other eSports titles to support SC2. Let's discuss, after all these things considered, how this should be more Blizzard's fault for letting this "loophole" kind of thing happening and giving room for someone, whoever that might have been for GOM, to decide to block off free 720p for global viewers. Because I've said all these things, but all I hear back is "They're breaking mah WCS rullz!!" Blizzard advertised free 720p, they stream at 360p. That is breaking the rules Blizzard set up. How about we turn down that anger. I was using logic, you are using anger. Trying to belittle my argument with exaggeration. It says WCS Global Events. WCS KR/GSL is NOT a global event. I quote myself. Also: Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 22:38 Growiel wrote:On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this? Because Koreans get Korean ads and also sponsorship money and TV subscription revenue, while we have to pay the only way we can: via Twitch. Hot6 is Korean only, I doubt that any of their money goes to the English crew. That is a very good point which I just thought of on my way home. GOM's main sponsors don't really target EU/NA viewers. Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 21:43 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On January 15 2015 20:42 KeksX wrote:On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this? Different pricings for different regions. you didnt explain anything you merely reworded my statement. Edit: Thank you KeksX for the post below this one . Same reason why on steam you sometimes find that other regions pay way less than the average EU citizen. I was not aware of this, unrelated question do you happen to know how many korean viewers GSL average? About that: I sadly have no idea how many korean viewers they have. On twitch they have a bit that like to troll the chat, but I guess most watch via YT and I can't see those numbers.
I think even more watch on TV than YT and/or Twitch. And I'm pretty sure they also have (or at least had, not sure if it's still a thing) an Afreeca.tv stream, which is the most popular streaming site here in Korea.
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Well I dunno, I do find it weird that hardly any event is 1080p for free in SC2, as every single event as far as I can tell in Dota 2 is free.
I just feel like SC2 viewers as a whole refuse to give money to a tournament, which has been shown in the past when it can to the number of monthly subscriptions, etc. Compared to Dota (it's where I'm now), people are much more likely to throw money at a wall. Especially when the scene is arguably on a slight decline, it's even harder for tournaments to finance each other, and hence foregoing this 240p rule.
I think it's absurd, and fully believe that there is not a more idiotic way to monetize a tournament (charging for higher quality). I'd much rather see people receive a portrait, new decals, or new skins for subscribing. Also having a few raffles or something for subscribers would be a good idea.
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I'm tempted to sub just so I can watch all of Life games.
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This is a pathetic move by GOM...Guess I'll go support SSL instead.
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Dont do it. Dont support GOM if they pull stuff like that. In 2015 we have to watch 360p (which is low on twitch) or pay money for 720p? Gom was always bad (quality wise) but this puts it over the top. I Hope they get something good from Blizzard for this sh**.
Free 720p quality shouldnt even have to be mentioned. Every other game has it and had it for A WHILE. But a declining/dying game tries to milk ppl who are watching.. yeah, sure... f*** off, GOM
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On January 16 2015 02:00 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Well I dunno, I do find it weird that hardly any event is 1080p for free in SC2, as every single event as far as I can tell in Dota 2 is free.
I just feel like SC2 viewers as a whole refuse to give money to a tournament, which has been shown in the past when it can to the number of monthly subscriptions, etc. Compared to Dota (it's where I'm now), people are much more likely to throw money at a wall. Especially when the scene is arguably on a slight decline, it's even harder for tournaments to finance each other, and hence foregoing this 240p rule.
I think it's absurd, and fully believe that there is not a more idiotic way to monetize a tournament (charging for higher quality). I'd much rather see people receive a portrait, new decals, or new skins for subscribing. Also having a few raffles or something for subscribers would be a good idea.
that's a really big issue for sc2 compared to other games. there's no hats, no in game tickets, not any one thing that makes a ton of money for other games. the game client itself doesn't allow for any of this so organizations have to resort to something else. if dota didn't have tickets, compendiums, tournament couriers, bundles and 10000 other things that viewers can buy and support tournaments through, maybe we'd have to pay for 720p Bruno and LD as well. i agree that what gom's doing is a terrible way to monetize the broadcast, but blizzard isn't giving them a ton of other options either. it could just be that they're not idiots/assholes but rather in a pretty desperate position.
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its really simple, don't watch or pay for it if you don't want to. In 2015, it really should be 1080p for subs with vods and 720p live.
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On January 16 2015 00:25 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 18:39 KeksX wrote:
You hate "GREED"!?
....................... Yeah, thatss totally why GOM is doing it. That has been their plan all along. Get those MASSIVE 15k viewers and then force everyone to sub! Hahahaha!
I don't know about other gaming communities but I've always been stunned by the level of entitlement from some SC2 fans. Gimme, gimme, gimme. Just ask Sundance.
Is it too much to be asked that foreigner viewers demand to be treated equally to the Korean viewers? At least make the Korean stream watchable without proxy shenanigans... 
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On January 16 2015 02:00 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Well I dunno, I do find it weird that hardly any event is 1080p for free in SC2, as every single event as far as I can tell in Dota 2 is free.
I just feel like SC2 viewers as a whole refuse to give money to a tournament, which has been shown in the past when it can to the number of monthly subscriptions, etc. Compared to Dota (it's where I'm now), people are much more likely to throw money at a wall. Especially when the scene is arguably on a slight decline, it's even harder for tournaments to finance each other, and hence foregoing this 240p rule.
I think it's absurd, and fully believe that there is not a more idiotic way to monetize a tournament (charging for higher quality). I'd much rather see people receive a portrait, new decals, or new skins for subscribing. Also having a few raffles or something for subscribers would be a good idea.
Do you see the issue? DotA2 has full-blown support from Valve towards eSports, whereas SC2 has a very small development team. Sooo... due to the missing engineering power, tournaments have to go back to stuff like that.
And really, the starcraft community shows itself from its worst side again. Just read this little piece on reddit:
the thing is people used to love gomtv, how they aimed at foreign audience in past. Now it seems they dont give a fuck, so people feel betrayed. basicaly we got dumped and thats why we cry .)
GomTV dumped us guys! .... these guys annoy me so much.
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On January 16 2015 00:25 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 17:45 xM(Z wrote:
15$ is around 5% of a monthly paycheck ...
go pirates! You are making $300 a month? Just $75 a week? Only $15 a day? How sad. On the bright side, the subscription covers roughly three months so that averages it down to under 2% each month.
but, but, my kids ... be left with no bread'n shit.
so now, let me help you. what you should've taken from that post is that the fee doesn't have the same weight for all people; acknowledge it and move the fuck on. don't rag on the little people.
moving on now - practically, it's not 2% per month, per 30 days, but 2% for about 4 - 5 days but w/e.
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Low qual + 14 for high and 24 for Source is just ridiculous... Just make it 15 for source.. Last year wasnt it $18 a season for source?
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Is it a bird?
Is it a plane?
Is it a oracle?
No.. it's just a probe
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On January 16 2015 19:14 WonnaPlay wrote:
Is it a bird?
Is it a plane?
Is it a oracle?
No.. it's just a probe
be a man
pay the bucks
and you will see
it's a tree
:D
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On January 16 2015 19:30 BlueStar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2015 19:14 WonnaPlay wrote:
Is it a bird?
Is it a plane?
Is it a oracle?
No.. it's just a probe be a man pay the bucks and you will see it's a tree :D
hahaha :D
I have paid for the GSL consecutively from 2011 to 2013, but currently I'm not that interested in VODs / viewing it all the time, since I don't play Sc2 myself atm. Also I can only watch fragments of the games, due to me being at work (haha).
Once LotV comes, I will gladly pay again for VODs, but the fact that I can't even watch the difference between a probe and a tree is absurd.
I have had 3x 1 year subscription and am now back to this.
It's really bad costumer service and eventhough I understand the predicament they're in. It influences my choice to not pay anything for GSL anymore. I pay for the VODs, not for the high quality. Now I need to pay for the high quality if i want to watch anything at all.
I wonder how succesfull Spotify would be, if the non-paying members would get 64k quality of music....
Having the quality on 'medium' is low enough. High end users (like me) can't even watch movies if its less than 1080p. So if i want to watch high quality I would buy it anyways, since 420p already hurts my eyes. but this.. this is just unwatchable....
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On January 15 2015 23:57 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 23:53 var username wrote:
Emotion has little to do with what a rational consumer is to choose. Weird point because the sole reason to pay for any eSports thing is emotionally. There's no rational justification for watching 2 people play a video games against each other.
I shall rephrase that sentence, because English is not your first language. It simply means that when making decisions, a rational consumer is not to rely on emotion. Utility derived from watching eSports can be argued to be based on the emotional connection to the players and the game, but when making judgement calls, only the quantified utility counts.
An example: a game played between two players where one is given a principal sum of money, say $500, and can choose to split any amount with the opponent. The opponent can choose to accept the split or reject, in which case both players will not get any money.
Rationally, the receiving player should accept any amount, even $0, because his utility in that case remains the same as in the case where he had never played this game at all - he is thus indifferent to the two outcomes.
But we know that there is pride and emotion involved, and as such the receiving player will reject a low split just to spite the player who decides the split.
For more details, please refer to any crash course in consumer theory. I believe my prose is long enough.
Lastly, don't you find arguing on semantics alone deeply boring and non-constructive? There was no value added to the discussion at all.
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EPT
