Why did they reduce the quality, this isn't even allowed. a 1st place victory will give 2,000 WCS points to the victor. As shown in the image below it is a requirement to have a free 720p english stream, yet low quality on twitch.tv is 480p if i'm not mistaken ??? Am I missing something here, or are GSL doing something a little shifty??
Edit, I don't want to start fights or anything, and I am not the kinda guy to fight over not having high quality, but medium is that nice middle ground, I agree that subscribers should be rewarded with something nice but come on... This is a joke I can barely make anything out on the screen...
-mod edit: in case anyone is wondering if it's a mistake
On January 09 2015 19:59 Seeker wrote: Uhhh.... Bad news... Just heard back from GOM.
Med is no longer free. Only the first day was free.
So... Yeah... Sorry guys...
-mod edit 2:
On January 10 2015 03:13 Seeker wrote: Regarding GOM eXP's terrible VOD system:
Last October, I contacted GOM and explained to them that the majority of GOM eXP related feedback pertained to the terrible VOD system that exists right now. Here is the response that I received:
We are currently aware of the displeasure from our viewers regarding the bad VOD system. Unfortunately, due to our service coalition with twitch, what we have currently is the best we can do with VODs.
Back when we were GOMTV.net, we had our own webpage dedicated to VODs and we even had our own player. But as of right now, we have to use the twitch and YouTube systems so we cannot freely change our services as we'd like to. We are looking into securing a better and improved VOD viewing process for 2015. However, there is no announcement date for this yet.
I'm not sure if this is correct, but I thought some time last year, Blizzard decided to let GOM go back to their old GSL Code S ways, remember it was called "WCS Korea" then they went back to GSL Code S. Maybe Blizzard left them alone to do their own thing? I'm not sure.
I don't mind paying, but I think at least med quality would be great for free at least.
On January 09 2015 19:20 AxiomBlurr wrote: Group A had High Quality allowed for non subs...WTF??? Not sure what is happening here I think it is an error that will be fixed...
I sure hope so, I refuse to watch gsl atm, theres no way in hell I'll pay 13.99$ a month for starcraft on High quality.
Edit: people are telling me that its per season, however if you change quality you get the "Its currently only 13.99$usd per month." message.
On January 09 2015 19:20 AxiomBlurr wrote: Group A had High Quality allowed for non subs...WTF??? Not sure what is happening here I think it is an error that will be fixed...
Group A had free source and no sub button, so it was definitely an error then.
Now it's just GOM needing money and being greedy(ish).
On January 09 2015 19:20 AxiomBlurr wrote: Group A had High Quality allowed for non subs...WTF??? Not sure what is happening here I think it is an error that will be fixed...
I sure hope so, I refuse to watch gsl atm, theres no way in hell I'll pay 13.99$ a month for starcraft.
I will pay if I have to,,,but I highly doubt GOM would have introduced this restriction deliberately after the first round was streamed in High for free...
On January 09 2015 19:20 AxiomBlurr wrote: Group A had High Quality allowed for non subs...WTF??? Not sure what is happening here I think it is an error that will be fixed...
I sure hope so, I refuse to watch gsl atm, theres no way in hell I'll pay 13.99$ a month for starcraft.
Its not for month its for season so for 3 month still weird that not even medium is free...... And also u Get Max. High with this u need to pay 23$ for source quality thats even bigger bull....
On January 09 2015 19:20 AxiomBlurr wrote: Group A had High Quality allowed for non subs...WTF??? Not sure what is happening here I think it is an error that will be fixed...
I sure hope so, I refuse to watch gsl atm, theres no way in hell I'll pay 13.99$ a month for starcraft.
On January 09 2015 19:20 AxiomBlurr wrote: Group A had High Quality allowed for non subs...WTF??? Not sure what is happening here I think it is an error that will be fixed...
Group A had free source and no sub button, so it was definitely an error then.
Now it's just GOM needing money and being greedy(ish).
Source required subs, I thought...for Group A...
but if not,,,,you are correct and this is a travesty!!!
Maby it could be forgiven if there was an infocast informing viewers of this situation....but given there was none (that I am aware of??) I will be mad devo if this is now the norm for GSL.
On January 09 2015 19:20 AxiomBlurr wrote: Group A had High Quality allowed for non subs...WTF??? Not sure what is happening here I think it is an error that will be fixed...
Group A had free source and no sub button, so it was definitely an error then.
Now it's just GOM needing money and being greedy(ish).
Source required subs, I thought...for Group A...
but if not,,,,you are correct and this is a travesty!!!
Maby it could be forgiven if there was an infocast informing viewers of this situation....but given there was none (that I am aware of??) I will be mad devo if this is now the norm for GSL.
On January 09 2015 19:20 AxiomBlurr wrote: Group A had High Quality allowed for non subs...WTF??? Not sure what is happening here I think it is an error that will be fixed...
Group A had free source and no sub button, so it was definitely an error then.
Now it's just GOM needing money and being greedy(ish).
Source required subs, I thought...for Group A...
but if not,,,,you are correct and this is a travesty!!!
Maby it could be forgiven if there was an infocast informing viewers of this situation....but given there was none (that I am aware of??) I will be mad devo if this is now the norm for GSL.
Group A required a sub for source, High was free.
That was what I thought. Thank you for your clarification.
You can always watch the Youtube (Korean) video. If you get a region-block (as I do), there are browser extensions like Hola http://hola.org/ that allow you to proxy around the world (pretend that you're viewing from Korea).
On January 09 2015 19:45 RHoudini wrote: You can always watch the Youtube (Korean) video. If you get a region-block (as I do), there are browser extensions like Hola http://hola.org/ that allow you to proxy around the world (pretend that you're viewing from Korea).
the thing is people shouldn't have to go through the trouble just to get decent quality stream. This is just a pure money grab, EA style. Only the english stream has this quality paywall nonsense while the korean stream is full HD. And they call it Global Starleague? Truly global indeed.
Restricting quality is such an obnoxious trend. Taking your content and actively making it worse for 99% of your viewers just so you can tell the other 1% that they're getting something "extra".
On January 09 2015 20:04 rgbAndraxxus wrote: With that quality why not just make it a radio broadcast and be done with it? Plus think of all the money saved on cameras and everything else. ._.
Nah, radio is too hard to get. Battle reports for free, low stream should be gold package, med quality - platinum. Probably high quality can be named Koprulian
On January 09 2015 19:45 RHoudini wrote: You can always watch the Youtube (Korean) video. If you get a region-block (as I do), there are browser extensions like Hola http://hola.org/ that allow you to proxy around the world (pretend that you're viewing from Korea).
Note that the rules linked in the OP is only for what Blizzard calls "WCS Global Events", which are tournaments such as Dreamhack and IEM, and doesn't apply to the Premier Leagues. Whatever rules Blizzard has set for those leagues hasn't been made public (as far as I know). See here.
On January 09 2015 19:45 RHoudini wrote: You can always watch the Youtube (Korean) video. If you get a region-block (as I do), there are browser extensions like Hola http://hola.org/ that allow you to proxy around the world (pretend that you're viewing from Korea).
Thanks but it's says their server is down..
Edit: *Korean
I'm currently watching the Youtube stream, everything seems to work fine.
On January 09 2015 19:45 RHoudini wrote: You can always watch the Youtube (Korean) video. If you get a region-block (as I do), there are browser extensions like Hola http://hola.org/ that allow you to proxy around the world (pretend that you're viewing from Korea).
Thanks but it's says their server is down..
Edit: *Korean
I'm currently watching the Youtube stream, everything seems to work fine.
On January 09 2015 20:14 Chenz wrote: Note that the rules linked in the OP is only for what Blizzard calls "WCS Global Events", which are tournaments such as Dreamhack and IEM, and doesn't apply to the Premier Leagues. Whatever rules Blizzard has set for those leagues hasn't been made public (as far as I know). See here.
Hmm, would be weird if the most important partners (ESL, Gom etc.) didn't have to follow these rules..
On January 09 2015 19:45 RHoudini wrote: You can always watch the Youtube (Korean) video. If you get a region-block (as I do), there are browser extensions like Hola http://hola.org/ that allow you to proxy around the world (pretend that you're viewing from Korea).
Thanks but it's says their server is down..
Edit: *Korean
I'm currently watching the Youtube stream, everything seems to work fine.
I get this Sorry, our proxy server is currently down... Please try it again later.
Edit: Works now but it's quite laggy. Thanks anyway though
On January 09 2015 19:45 RHoudini wrote: You can always watch the Youtube (Korean) video. If you get a region-block (as I do), there are browser extensions like Hola http://hola.org/ that allow you to proxy around the world (pretend that you're viewing from Korea).
Thanks but it's says their server is down..
Edit: *Korean
I'm currently watching the Youtube stream, everything seems to work fine.
Hola to slow and other unbreakers dont use korean proxys. Maybe Europe to Korea is still such a bad connection.
So bye bye GSL. Maybe i watch the French Rebroadcasts, but thats it. SpoTV will take over for you, I dont need you anymore.
The_Templar does often a liveticker in the thread, but wouldnt it be cool if there would be official liveticker on the TL Mainpage, easy to acces, easy to read, because it is hard to follow The_Templars livereports during 100 pages of threads.
On January 09 2015 19:45 RHoudini wrote: You can always watch the Youtube (Korean) video. If you get a region-block (as I do), there are browser extensions like Hola http://hola.org/ that allow you to proxy around the world (pretend that you're viewing from Korea).
Thanks but it's says their server is down..
Edit: *Korean
I'm currently watching the Youtube stream, everything seems to work fine.
13.99$ a month and only low quality means they are losing more customer and are attempting to compensate by raising their prices.
This will result in further erosion of their customer base. I myself am used to spending 105$+ per year on GOMTV for the past 4 years. I will not be spending 150$+ a year. I will now not be sad when GOMTV closes its doors in a year or two.
EDIT: 13.99 per season? This is closer to last years, i'll think over the purchase.
On January 09 2015 21:00 Defessus wrote: 13.99$ a month and only low quality means they are losing more customer and are attempting to compensate by raising their prices.
This will result in further erosion of their customer base. I myself am used to spending 105$+ per year on GOMTV for the past 4 years. I will not be spending 150$+ a year. I will now not be sad when GOMTV closes its doors in a year or two.
But if the previous model wasn't viable then they'd close doors sooner than that. It seems a lot of people assume they were doing fine and did this just because they're greedy and want to fuck with you.
On January 09 2015 21:00 Defessus wrote: 13.99$ a month and only low quality means they are losing more customer and are attempting to compensate by raising their prices.
This will result in further erosion of their customer base. I myself am used to spending 105$+ per year on GOMTV for the past 4 years. I will not be spending 150$+ a year. I will now not be sad when GOMTV closes its doors in a year or two.
But if the previous model wasn't viable then they'd close doors sooner than that. It seems a lot of people assume they were doing fine and did this just because they're greedy and want to fuck with you.
If a company needs more money they have a lot of options. Raising prices on existing customers is only one of them. Not the best option in my opinion either.
On January 09 2015 21:00 Defessus wrote: 13.99$ a month and only low quality means they are losing more customer and are attempting to compensate by raising their prices.
This will result in further erosion of their customer base. I myself am used to spending 105$+ per year on GOMTV for the past 4 years. I will not be spending 150$+ a year. I will now not be sad when GOMTV closes its doors in a year or two.
But if the previous model wasn't viable then they'd close doors sooner than that. It seems a lot of people assume they were doing fine and did this just because they're greedy and want to fuck with you.
If a company needs more money they have a lot of options. Raising prices on existing customers is only one of them. Not the best option in my opinion either.
We've seen them struggle to land sponsorships in the past. I think they've exhausted other options.
On January 09 2015 21:00 Defessus wrote: 13.99$ a month and only low quality means they are losing more customer and are attempting to compensate by raising their prices.
This will result in further erosion of their customer base. I myself am used to spending 105$+ per year on GOMTV for the past 4 years. I will not be spending 150$+ a year. I will now not be sad when GOMTV closes its doors in a year or two.
But if the previous model wasn't viable then they'd close doors sooner than that. It seems a lot of people assume they were doing fine and did this just because they're greedy and want to fuck with you.
If a company needs more money they have a lot of options. Raising prices on existing customers is only one of them. Not the best option in my opinion either.
We've seen them struggle to land sponsorships in the past. I think they've exhausted other options.
the problem for me is more the lack of communication than anything else. Done like that it looks just like a dick move.
On January 09 2015 21:00 Defessus wrote: 13.99$ a month and only low quality means they are losing more customer and are attempting to compensate by raising their prices.
This will result in further erosion of their customer base. I myself am used to spending 105$+ per year on GOMTV for the past 4 years. I will not be spending 150$+ a year. I will now not be sad when GOMTV closes its doors in a year or two.
But if the previous model wasn't viable then they'd close doors sooner than that. It seems a lot of people assume they were doing fine and did this just because they're greedy and want to fuck with you.
If a company needs more money they have a lot of options. Raising prices on existing customers is only one of them. Not the best option in my opinion either.
We've seen them struggle to land sponsorships in the past. I think they've exhausted other options.
the problem for me is more the lack of communication than anything else. Done like that it looks just like a dick move.
On January 09 2015 21:00 Defessus wrote: 13.99$ a month and only low quality means they are losing more customer and are attempting to compensate by raising their prices.
This will result in further erosion of their customer base. I myself am used to spending 105$+ per year on GOMTV for the past 4 years. I will not be spending 150$+ a year. I will now not be sad when GOMTV closes its doors in a year or two.
But if the previous model wasn't viable then they'd close doors sooner than that. It seems a lot of people assume they were doing fine and did this just because they're greedy and want to fuck with you.
If a company needs more money they have a lot of options. Raising prices on existing customers is only one of them. Not the best option in my opinion either.
We've seen them struggle to land sponsorships in the past. I think they've exhausted other options.
the problem for me is more the lack of communication than anything else. Done like that it looks just like a dick move.
It doesn't just look like a dick move, it is a dick move.
On January 09 2015 21:00 Defessus wrote: 13.99$ a month and only low quality means they are losing more customer and are attempting to compensate by raising their prices.
This will result in further erosion of their customer base. I myself am used to spending 105$+ per year on GOMTV for the past 4 years. I will not be spending 150$+ a year. I will now not be sad when GOMTV closes its doors in a year or two.
But if the previous model wasn't viable then they'd close doors sooner than that. It seems a lot of people assume they were doing fine and did this just because they're greedy and want to fuck with you.
If a company needs more money they have a lot of options. Raising prices on existing customers is only one of them. Not the best option in my opinion either.
We've seen them struggle to land sponsorships in the past. I think they've exhausted other options.
the problem for me is more the lack of communication than anything else. Done like that it looks just like a dick move.
It doesn't just look like a dick move, it is a dick move.
It depends how badly things were working before, it can be seen as necessary but done like that...
What exactly did you want them to tell you? "Hey our business is not successful atm, we're gna take away something that was previously free. Enjoy." It would change nothing.
On January 09 2015 21:00 Defessus wrote: 13.99$ a month and only low quality means they are losing more customer and are attempting to compensate by raising their prices.
This will result in further erosion of their customer base. I myself am used to spending 105$+ per year on GOMTV for the past 4 years. I will not be spending 150$+ a year. I will now not be sad when GOMTV closes its doors in a year or two.
But if the previous model wasn't viable then they'd close doors sooner than that. It seems a lot of people assume they were doing fine and did this just because they're greedy and want to fuck with you.
If a company needs more money they have a lot of options. Raising prices on existing customers is only one of them. Not the best option in my opinion either.
We've seen them struggle to land sponsorships in the past. I think they've exhausted other options.
the problem for me is more the lack of communication than anything else. Done like that it looks just like a dick move.
It doesn't just look like a dick move, it is a dick move.
It depends how badly things were working before, it can be seen as necessary but done like that...
It doesn't matter, lack of communication is disgusting. Luckily we had Seeker who has asked GOM about it and we got confirmation that from now on low is for non-subs, if Seeker didn't do that, who knows when we would get the answer. They've made mistakes before and were giving us source quality for free sometimes, and a lot of people thought that this is a mistake...
On January 09 2015 21:17 nkr wrote: What exactly did you want them to tell you? "Hey our business is not successful atm, we're gna take away something that was previously free. Enjoy." It would change nothing.
On January 09 2015 21:17 nkr wrote: What exactly did you want them to tell you? "Hey our business is not successful atm, we're gna take away something that was previously free. Enjoy." It would change nothing.
just a standard PR statement that they were switching things up (because whatever). and not being like that: launching stream, oh it's on low, back to medium at least. What sub needed for medium and 13.99$/month that's fucking ridiculous.
+ twitch and GSL has been such a downgrad for vods so the live quality was pretty much the only reason to sub.
meh. i don't like to act entitled to free entertainment, so i'm not going to whine, but i agree it's totally awful. low only is basically saying "pay up or get out," and i'm not giving them money, so... i mean i guess low is acceptable to watch on mobile but not on any modern monitor.
guess for as long as the game stays active they just want to milk the hell out of the small niche of hardcore fans who will pay for SC2 content? kinda disappointing, but capitalism is what it is
On January 09 2015 21:17 nkr wrote: What exactly did you want them to tell you? "Hey our business is not successful atm, we're gna take away something that was previously free. Enjoy." It would change nothing.
so if your friend cancels lunch plans with you it doesn't matter whether he texts you first?
On January 09 2015 21:23 nkr wrote: that's not even remotely the same, but a funny scenario indeed!
i'm not sure what's different about it. the whole point is to give people notice of a change that will disappoint them as a basic courtesy so they're not taken off guard by it? it's actually almost identical
On January 09 2015 19:45 RHoudini wrote: You can always watch the Youtube (Korean) video. If you get a region-block (as I do), there are browser extensions like Hola http://hola.org/ that allow you to proxy around the world (pretend that you're viewing from Korea).
Thanks but it's says their server is down..
Edit: *Korean
I'm currently watching the Youtube stream, everything seems to work fine.
On January 09 2015 21:23 nkr wrote: that's not even remotely the same, but a funny scenario indeed!
i'm not sure what's different about it. the whole point is to give people notice of a change that will disappoint them as a basic courtesy so they're not taken off guard by it? it's actually almost identical
I guess if you're very emotional about your GSL, you could have a point. Personally I can't equate the two.
On January 09 2015 21:23 nkr wrote: that's not even remotely the same, but a funny scenario indeed!
i'm not sure what's different about it. the whole point is to give people notice of a change that will disappoint them as a basic courtesy so they're not taken off guard by it? it's actually almost identical
I guess if you're very emotional about your GSL, you could have a point. Personally I can't equate the two.
On January 09 2015 21:23 nkr wrote: that's not even remotely the same, but a funny scenario indeed!
i'm not sure what's different about it. the whole point is to give people notice of a change that will disappoint them as a basic courtesy so they're not taken off guard by it? it's actually almost identical
I guess if you're very emotional about your GSL, you could have a point. Personally I can't equate the two.
lol, appreciating basic courtesy is being "emotional"?? you're either trolling or have a very bizarre conception of what it is to be "emotional," but i'm not really invested at all in whether you agree with my analogy so i'm not going to pursue it
On January 09 2015 21:46 maartendq wrote: If GOM is run by people who think that this is even remotely a good business decision, I fear the worst for that company.
MLG has done this before aswell right? where they locked the remainder of the tournament behind a paywall, at least that is what i can remember.
I'm just happy SpotTV exists and GSL has no monopoly on Korean sc2 .
SPL and SSL prvoide a lot to watch and nobody is forced to pay Gom, if they want high quality content. A very poor decision by them imo and I hope it does not work out for them.
On January 09 2015 21:46 maartendq wrote: If GOM is run by people who think that this is even remotely a good business decision, I fear the worst for that company.
MLG has done this before aswell right? where they locked the remainder of the tournament behind a paywall, at least that is what i can remember.
They did one or two "online audience only" tournaments that required viewers to pay to watch. I don't think it was all that succesful.
As much as an increasing amount of people enjoy esports, it's clearly not gotten to the point where a majority of people are willing to pay for it.
This way they ruin the best tournament for thousands of people who are wandering between SC2 and many other competitive PC games. - Probably they want to push away their SC2 viewers for something else?
If they don't want to make people go away they should reconsider different payment options and additional features not only abusing the stream quality. We live in years when the ecommerce is so advanced and they stick to the 2010 realm.
When selling stuff online (especially a service like this one), they need to exceed expectations. They want us to pay $13.99 for something that others give for free (e.g. SSL), or that they used to give for free. Their customers aren't gonna be happy.
In addition, we would be paying for the quality of the stream and not much else. That's not exceeding expectations... Exceeding expectations is what they used to do: we can pay to ask questions to the players in post-match interviews, many people can't be in the studio, so subs could send their cheerfuls to an e-mail and they could be shown on stream, they could do lottery where x subs per GSL get to play/talk/get coached by a professional player/the champion/the runner-up, there's SO much monetisation potential there!
But no instead they decrease quality to 240p and I ain't watching that shit.
If you aren't subscribed, then you aren't really a customer. This affects people who weren't subscribers, people who they did not monetize at all. Judging by how many people subscribed today, it works. Yes, in terms of bringing in new viewers for sc2, it's a bad long term move. However, GOM as a company needs to survive short time.
On January 09 2015 22:31 nkr wrote: If you aren't subscribed, then you aren't really a customer. This affects people who weren't subscribers, people who they did not monetize at all. Judging by how many people subscribed today, it works. Yes, in terms of bringing in new viewers for sc2, it's a bad long term move. However, GOM as a company needs to survive short time.
I'll leave this bold here if they don't need to survive long
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
If they depend on twitch subs for financial stability it's already over. The english stream is only a bonus and it would be nice if it paid for itself I guess. But their source of income should be the korean viewership and sponsors. Also merchandise and those game ads etc, which are all also for the Korean viewers.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
But I imagine Blizzard only cares about viewer numbers. Kinda strange to fund a tournaments price pool with these quality settings while (all the!) others offer better, including the ones who arrange their own price pool..
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
But I imagine Blizzard only cares about viewer numbers. Kinda strange to fund a tournaments price pool with these quality settings while (all the!) others offer better, including the ones who arrange their own price pool..
What does Blizzard have to do with this? They have nothing to do with GOM.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
If they depend on twitch subs for financial stability it's already over. The english stream is only a bonus and it would be nice if it paid for itself I guess. But their source of income should be the korean viewership and sponsors. Also merchandise and those game ads etc, which are all also for the Korean viewers.
I was of the impression that the foreign audience was bigger than the Korean audience. Perhaps I'm wrong?
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
But I imagine Blizzard only cares about viewer numbers. Kinda strange to fund a tournaments price pool with these quality settings while (all the!) others offer better, including the ones who arrange their own price pool..
What does Blizzard have to do with this? They have nothing to do with GOM.
Like I said; They're funding their price pool. I'm just saying that I can't imagine them being happy about this. I'm adding a reason for this maybe being a stupid move by Gom.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
But I imagine Blizzard only cares about viewer numbers. Kinda strange to fund a tournaments price pool with these quality settings while (all the!) others offer better, including the ones who arrange their own price pool..
What does Blizzard have to do with this? They have nothing to do with GOM.
Like I said; They're funding their price pool. I'm just saying that I can't imagine them being happy about this. I'm adding a reason for this maybe being a stupid move by Gom.
Well it doesn't matter if Blizzard funds the prize pool. If they can't run GSL because it doesn't break even then what?
4am with low quality (welcome to 2015 GSL) is the main reason I don't watch tastosis as much. Also the fact that the replays are limited to low and 1 game of the first set. We'll see if that changes otherwise its the moonglade and wolf show from now on.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
But I imagine Blizzard only cares about viewer numbers. Kinda strange to fund a tournaments price pool with these quality settings while (all the!) others offer better, including the ones who arrange their own price pool..
What does Blizzard have to do with this? They have nothing to do with GOM.
Like I said; They're funding their price pool. I'm just saying that I can't imagine them being happy about this. I'm adding a reason for this maybe being a stupid move by Gom.
Well it doesn't matter if Blizzard funds the prize pool. If they can't run GSL because it doesn't break even then what?
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
But I imagine Blizzard only cares about viewer numbers. Kinda strange to fund a tournaments price pool with these quality settings while (all the!) others offer better, including the ones who arrange their own price pool..
What does Blizzard have to do with this? They have nothing to do with GOM.
Like I said; They're funding their price pool. I'm just saying that I can't imagine them being happy about this. I'm adding a reason for this maybe being a stupid move by Gom.
Well it doesn't matter if Blizzard funds the prize pool. If they can't run GSL because it doesn't break even then what?
Well, then the competition takes over.
Competition? It's about the fact that running a starcraft 2 league in korea isnt profitable if noone wants to pay for it. I feel like all we have here are butthurt people who used to have awesome content for free. These people are now sad because it turns out nothing is actually free.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
Just to clarify myself - they are alive because of starcraft - starcraft is alive because of the people who play starcraft
- if they want to acquire new customers they must consider how to involve more people in their broadcasts and probably attract people into their sales funnel if their service is worthy.
Instead they are tightening the sales funnel by pushing away some of their current viewers and taking the money from their hardcore followers. With such approach they can only reduce the people who will to pay... each time the viewers are getting less and less. Coincidence?
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
If they depend on twitch subs for financial stability it's already over. The english stream is only a bonus and it would be nice if it paid for itself I guess. But their source of income should be the korean viewership and sponsors. Also merchandise and those game ads etc, which are all also for the Korean viewers.
I was of the impression that the foreign audience was bigger than the Korean audience. Perhaps I'm wrong?
"it would be nice if it paid for itself I guess"
Yeah , that would be nice for a company
GSL is a Korean product for Koreans with an english stream on the side, so I'm fairly certain you are wrong.
Otherwise they should really change the ads they are playing, if they are targeting the foreign audience and see us as their main audience/source of income .
So I'm fine with them having a sub option so that they don't lose money through the english stream, but low quality is absurd and will turn away any casual viewer and many long time viewers. They are the only ones in all of esports that only provide 240p for free and nothing else afaik, not even vods. At least now SpotTV is here and they look especially dumb, with SpotTV providing free vods on youtube hours after the games,
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
But I imagine Blizzard only cares about viewer numbers. Kinda strange to fund a tournaments price pool with these quality settings while (all the!) others offer better, including the ones who arrange their own price pool..
What does Blizzard have to do with this? They have nothing to do with GOM.
Like I said; They're funding their price pool. I'm just saying that I can't imagine them being happy about this. I'm adding a reason for this maybe being a stupid move by Gom.
Well it doesn't matter if Blizzard funds the prize pool. If they can't run GSL because it doesn't break even then what?
Well, then the competition takes over.
Competition? It's about the fact that running a starcraft 2 league in korea isnt profitable if noone wants to pay for it. I feel like all we have here are butthurt people who used to have awesome content for free. These people are now sad because it turns out nothing is actually free.
You have heard of spot tv?
Anyway, there's no future in the subscriber model imo; If they can't stay afloat without it I'm afraid they're doomed.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
But I imagine Blizzard only cares about viewer numbers. Kinda strange to fund a tournaments price pool with these quality settings while (all the!) others offer better, including the ones who arrange their own price pool..
What does Blizzard have to do with this? They have nothing to do with GOM.
Like I said; They're funding their price pool. I'm just saying that I can't imagine them being happy about this. I'm adding a reason for this maybe being a stupid move by Gom.
Well it doesn't matter if Blizzard funds the prize pool. If they can't run GSL because it doesn't break even then what?
Well, then the competition takes over.
Competition? It's about the fact that running a starcraft 2 league in korea isnt profitable if noone wants to pay for it. I feel like all we have here are butthurt people who used to have awesome content for free. These people are now sad because it turns out nothing is actually free.
So when practically every single other SC2 broadcast provides 480p min, how exactly does this "nothing is free" argument make any sense? Even Kespa, of all the organizations in the world, is showing Gom up.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
Just to clarify myself - they are alive because of starcraft - starcraft is alive because of the people who play starcraft
- if they want to pitch new customers they must consider how to involve more people in their broadcasts and probably attract people into their sales funnel if their service is worthy.
Instead they are tightening the sales funnel by pushing away some of their current viewers and taking the money from their hardcore followers. With such approach they can only reduce the people who will to pay... each time the viewers are getting less and less. Coincidence?
The viewers are getting less overall. If you want to keep the same content but with a smaller scene, more people have to pay. It's quite simple.
I'm sure we could get a free HD stream for foreigners if it was casted by madals&pughy from their basements over skype.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
But I imagine Blizzard only cares about viewer numbers. Kinda strange to fund a tournaments price pool with these quality settings while (all the!) others offer better, including the ones who arrange their own price pool..
What does Blizzard have to do with this? They have nothing to do with GOM.
Like I said; They're funding their price pool. I'm just saying that I can't imagine them being happy about this. I'm adding a reason for this maybe being a stupid move by Gom.
Well it doesn't matter if Blizzard funds the prize pool. If they can't run GSL because it doesn't break even then what?
Well, then the competition takes over.
Competition? It's about the fact that running a starcraft 2 league in korea isnt profitable if noone wants to pay for it. I feel like all we have here are butthurt people who used to have awesome content for free. These people are now sad because it turns out nothing is actually free.
Every esports stream of every high quality tournament is actually free, except for GSL now. This is 2015 and they have to find other ways to get subs, a high quality stream for free is a prerequisite to stay competitive and have the chance for success in the future.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
Just to clarify myself - they are alive because of starcraft - starcraft is alive because of the people who play starcraft
- if they want to pitch new customers they must consider how to involve more people in their broadcasts and probably attract people into their sales funnel if their service is worthy.
Instead they are tightening the sales funnel by pushing away some of their current viewers and taking the money from their hardcore followers. With such approach they can only reduce the people who will to pay... each time the viewers are getting less and less. Coincidence?
The viewers are getting less overall. If you want to keep the same content but with a smaller scene, more people have to pay. It's quite simple.
I'm sure we could get a free HD stream for foreigners if it was casted by madals&pughy from their basements over skype.
But I don't have to. There's competition. See the risk they're taking with this now?
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
Just to clarify myself - they are alive because of starcraft - starcraft is alive because of the people who play starcraft
- if they want to pitch new customers they must consider how to involve more people in their broadcasts and probably attract people into their sales funnel if their service is worthy.
Instead they are tightening the sales funnel by pushing away some of their current viewers and taking the money from their hardcore followers. With such approach they can only reduce the people who will to pay... each time the viewers are getting less and less. Coincidence?
The viewers are getting less overall. If you want to keep the same content but with a smaller scene, more people have to pay. It's quite simple.
I'm sure we could get a free HD stream for foreigners if it was casted by madals&pughy from their basements over skype.
But I don't have to. There's competition. See the risk they're taking with this now?
What risk? If you weren't subscribed you weren't giving them any money anyway.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
Just to clarify myself - they are alive because of starcraft - starcraft is alive because of the people who play starcraft
- if they want to pitch new customers they must consider how to involve more people in their broadcasts and probably attract people into their sales funnel if their service is worthy.
Instead they are tightening the sales funnel by pushing away some of their current viewers and taking the money from their hardcore followers. With such approach they can only reduce the people who will to pay... each time the viewers are getting less and less. Coincidence?
The viewers are getting less overall. If you want to keep the same content but with a smaller scene, more people have to pay. It's quite simple.
I'm sure we could get a free HD stream for foreigners if it was casted by madals&pughy from their basements over skype.
But I don't have to. There's competition. See the risk they're taking with this now?
What risk? If you weren't subscribed you weren't giving them any money anyway.
- Losing viewers - Blizzard, an unmissable partner, maybe not being happy with this and pulling their support?
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
Just to clarify myself - they are alive because of starcraft - starcraft is alive because of the people who play starcraft
- if they want to pitch new customers they must consider how to involve more people in their broadcasts and probably attract people into their sales funnel if their service is worthy.
Instead they are tightening the sales funnel by pushing away some of their current viewers and taking the money from their hardcore followers. With such approach they can only reduce the people who will to pay... each time the viewers are getting less and less. Coincidence?
The viewers are getting less overall. If you want to keep the same content but with a smaller scene, more people have to pay. It's quite simple.
I'm sure we could get a free HD stream for foreigners if it was casted by madals&pughy from their basements over skype.
I'm sure you are into starcraft for not more then 4 years if your understanding is based on Artosis and Tasteless being gods. They were people just like 'madals and pughy' years ago who had the chance to prove and improve, living their dream, not stealing from your pocket.
As someone wrote there - if gom is alive because of the subscription payments they won't be so alive and expanding. If they can't count their money they can't be alive and expanding as well.
Today's business understanding is not based on stealing money from the people who keep you alive. Either their ecommerce team is stupid or using old approaches that are abandoned for a reason in nowadays prosperous companies. .
Its a normal practice in streaming events: First is full quality free, once you have enough viewers you ask for a payment. Its been like that for a few years now, dont know why people still are surprised about stuff like this.
nkr is still unable to account for the fact that Gom is literally the only SC2 broadcaster in the world to offer such a low quality stream option, including Kespa productions lol. Everyone needs an advocate, I suppose.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
Just to clarify myself - they are alive because of starcraft - starcraft is alive because of the people who play starcraft
- if they want to pitch new customers they must consider how to involve more people in their broadcasts and probably attract people into their sales funnel if their service is worthy.
Instead they are tightening the sales funnel by pushing away some of their current viewers and taking the money from their hardcore followers. With such approach they can only reduce the people who will to pay... each time the viewers are getting less and less. Coincidence?
The viewers are getting less overall. If you want to keep the same content but with a smaller scene, more people have to pay. It's quite simple.
I'm sure we could get a free HD stream for foreigners if it was casted by madals&pughy from their basements over skype.
I'm sure you are into starcraft for not more then 4 years if your understanding is based on Artosis and Tasteless being gods. They were people just like madals and pughy years ago who had the chance to prove and improve, living their dream, not stealing from your pocket.
As someone wrote there - if gom is alive because of the subscription payments they won't be so alive and expanding. If they can't count their money they can't be alive and expanding as well.
Today's business understanding is not based on stealing money from the people who keep you alive. Either their ecommerce team is stupid or using old approaches that are abandoned for a reason in nowadays prosperous companies. .
They aren't stealing from anyone. They never took anything you owned or paid for.
On January 09 2015 23:13 farvacola wrote: ^this is simply untrue lol
nkr is still unable to account for the fact that Gom is literally the only SC2 broadcaster in the world to offer such a low quality stream option, including Kespa productions lol. Everyone needs an advocate, I suppose.
GOM is also the only non-major company to broadcast a weekly Sc2 league out of Korea. Comparing them to SpoTV is comparing apples to oranges.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
Just to clarify myself - they are alive because of starcraft - starcraft is alive because of the people who play starcraft
- if they want to pitch new customers they must consider how to involve more people in their broadcasts and probably attract people into their sales funnel if their service is worthy.
Instead they are tightening the sales funnel by pushing away some of their current viewers and taking the money from their hardcore followers. With such approach they can only reduce the people who will to pay... each time the viewers are getting less and less. Coincidence?
The viewers are getting less overall. If you want to keep the same content but with a smaller scene, more people have to pay. It's quite simple.
I'm sure we could get a free HD stream for foreigners if it was casted by madals&pughy from their basements over skype.
I'm sure you are into starcraft for not more then 4 years if your understanding is based on Artosis and Tasteless being gods. They were people just like madals and pughy years ago who had the chance to prove and improve, living their dream, not stealing from your pocket.
As someone wrote there - if gom is alive because of the subscription payments they won't be so alive and expanding. If they can't count their money they can't be alive and expanding as well.
Today's business understanding is not based on stealing money from the people who keep you alive. Either their ecommerce team is stupid or using old approaches that are abandoned for a reason in nowadays prosperous companies. .
They aren't stealing from anyone. They never took anything you owned or paid for.
I finished what i had to write. If you want to explain you each written word, better get on the books and start reading science. Metaphors are everywhere.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
Just to clarify myself - they are alive because of starcraft - starcraft is alive because of the people who play starcraft
- if they want to pitch new customers they must consider how to involve more people in their broadcasts and probably attract people into their sales funnel if their service is worthy.
Instead they are tightening the sales funnel by pushing away some of their current viewers and taking the money from their hardcore followers. With such approach they can only reduce the people who will to pay... each time the viewers are getting less and less. Coincidence?
The viewers are getting less overall. If you want to keep the same content but with a smaller scene, more people have to pay. It's quite simple.
I'm sure we could get a free HD stream for foreigners if it was casted by madals&pughy from their basements over skype.
I'm sure you are into starcraft for not more then 4 years if your understanding is based on Artosis and Tasteless being gods. They were people just like madals and pughy years ago who had the chance to prove and improve, living their dream, not stealing from your pocket.
As someone wrote there - if gom is alive because of the subscription payments they won't be so alive and expanding. If they can't count their money they can't be alive and expanding as well.
Today's business understanding is not based on stealing money from the people who keep you alive. Either their ecommerce team is stupid or using old approaches that are abandoned for a reason in nowadays prosperous companies. .
They aren't stealing from anyone. They never took anything you owned or paid for.
I finished what i had to write. If you want to explain you each written word, better get on the books and start reading science. Metaphors are everywhere.
Gom are doing bad.
I study physics, thank you very much. If all you had were insults, then responding to your posts was my mistake from the start. I'm sorry, won't happen again.
Is there a technical definition for "non-major company" or is that simply where you saw fit to draw the "please excuse Gom here" line? Furthermore, do you really think this decision will increase Gom's revenue? If the past is any indication, it won't and this will simply hurt viewership more, further justifying folks pissed at Gom's incompetence.
On January 09 2015 23:13 farvacola wrote: ^this is simply untrue lol
nkr is still unable to account for the fact that Gom is literally the only SC2 broadcaster in the world to offer such a low quality stream option, including Kespa productions lol. Everyone needs an advocate, I suppose.
GOM is also the only non-major company to broadcast a weekly Sc2 league out of Korea. Comparing them to SpoTV is comparing apples to oranges.
Because they're a small company? That just doesn't matter. If you can't offer a similar product for similar prices it's not going to work. They aren't the only Korean league any more. You could argue that GSL is (a lot) better but I don't think a lot of people would agree with that.
Edit: Come on guys, please keep the discussion civil
On January 09 2015 23:20 farvacola wrote: Is there a technical definition for "non-major company" or is that simply where you saw fit to draw the "please excuse Gom here" line? Furthermore, do you really think this decision will increase Gom's revenue? If the past is any indication, it won't and this will simply hurt viewership more, further justifying folks pissed at Gom's incompetence.
I suggest you look up who SpoTV are. It's easy to see they're not in the same league.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
Just to clarify myself - they are alive because of starcraft - starcraft is alive because of the people who play starcraft
- if they want to pitch new customers they must consider how to involve more people in their broadcasts and probably attract people into their sales funnel if their service is worthy.
Instead they are tightening the sales funnel by pushing away some of their current viewers and taking the money from their hardcore followers. With such approach they can only reduce the people who will to pay... each time the viewers are getting less and less. Coincidence?
The viewers are getting less overall. If you want to keep the same content but with a smaller scene, more people have to pay. It's quite simple.
I'm sure we could get a free HD stream for foreigners if it was casted by madals&pughy from their basements over skype.
I'm sure you are into starcraft for not more then 4 years if your understanding is based on Artosis and Tasteless being gods. They were people just like madals and pughy years ago who had the chance to prove and improve, living their dream, not stealing from your pocket.
As someone wrote there - if gom is alive because of the subscription payments they won't be so alive and expanding. If they can't count their money they can't be alive and expanding as well.
Today's business understanding is not based on stealing money from the people who keep you alive. Either their ecommerce team is stupid or using old approaches that are abandoned for a reason in nowadays prosperous companies. .
They aren't stealing from anyone. They never took anything you owned or paid for.
I finished what i had to write. If you want to explain you each written word, better get on the books and start reading science. Metaphors are everywhere.
Gom are doing bad.
I study physics, thank you very much. If all you had were insults, then responding to your posts was my mistake from the start. I'm sorry, won't happen again.
On January 09 2015 23:13 farvacola wrote: ^this is simply untrue lol
nkr is still unable to account for the fact that Gom is literally the only SC2 broadcaster in the world to offer such a low quality stream option, including Kespa productions lol. Everyone needs an advocate, I suppose.
GOM is also the only non-major company to broadcast a weekly Sc2 league out of Korea. Comparing them to SpoTV is comparing apples to oranges.
Because they're a small company? That just doesn't matter. If you can't offer a similar product for similar prices it's not going to work. They aren't the only Korean league any more. You could argue that GSL is (a lot) better but I don't think a lot of people would agree with that.
This is what I don't really get. The paid for product is actually on par with SpoTVs. It's the free product that no one pays for that is now inferior from GOM. What you get for your money is actually not worse because of this.
On January 09 2015 23:13 farvacola wrote: ^this is simply untrue lol
nkr is still unable to account for the fact that Gom is literally the only SC2 broadcaster in the world to offer such a low quality stream option, including Kespa productions lol. Everyone needs an advocate, I suppose.
GOM is also the only non-major company to broadcast a weekly Sc2 league out of Korea. Comparing them to SpoTV is comparing apples to oranges.
Because they're a small company? That just doesn't matter. If you can't offer a similar product for similar prices it's not going to work. They aren't the only Korean league any more. You could argue that GSL is (a lot) better but I don't think a lot of people would agree with that.
This is what I don't really get. The paid for product is actually on par with SpoTVs. It's the free product that no one pays for that is now inferior from GOM. What you get for your money is actually not worse because of this.
But it is. It got more expensive. And there's ad revenue. Losing viewers will mean losing that as well although I know that the ad revenue isn't great.
But yeah, I think enough is said about the topic. I'm curious to know what Blizzard thinks of this. Hopefully they'll make a statement about it.
On January 09 2015 23:13 farvacola wrote: ^this is simply untrue lol
nkr is still unable to account for the fact that Gom is literally the only SC2 broadcaster in the world to offer such a low quality stream option, including Kespa productions lol. Everyone needs an advocate, I suppose.
GOM is also the only non-major company to broadcast a weekly Sc2 league out of Korea. Comparing them to SpoTV is comparing apples to oranges.
Because they're a small company? That just doesn't matter. If you can't offer a similar product for similar prices it's not going to work. They aren't the only Korean league any more. You could argue that GSL is (a lot) better but I don't think a lot of people would agree with that.
This is what I don't really get. The paid for product is actually on par with SpoTVs. It's the free product that no one pays for that is now inferior from GOM. What you get for your money is actually not worse because of this.
It sounds like you are arguing that a viewer that did not sub is of no value.
On January 09 2015 23:13 farvacola wrote: ^this is simply untrue lol
nkr is still unable to account for the fact that Gom is literally the only SC2 broadcaster in the world to offer such a low quality stream option, including Kespa productions lol. Everyone needs an advocate, I suppose.
GOM is also the only non-major company to broadcast a weekly Sc2 league out of Korea. Comparing them to SpoTV is comparing apples to oranges.
Because they're a small company? That just doesn't matter. If you can't offer a similar product for similar prices it's not going to work. They aren't the only Korean league any more. You could argue that GSL is (a lot) better but I don't think a lot of people would agree with that.
This is what I don't really get. The paid for product is actually on par with SpoTVs. It's the free product that no one pays for that is now inferior from GOM. What you get for your money is actually not worse because of this.
It sounds like you are arguing that a viewer that did not sub is of no value.
On January 09 2015 23:13 farvacola wrote: ^this is simply untrue lol
nkr is still unable to account for the fact that Gom is literally the only SC2 broadcaster in the world to offer such a low quality stream option, including Kespa productions lol. Everyone needs an advocate, I suppose.
GOM is also the only non-major company to broadcast a weekly Sc2 league out of Korea. Comparing them to SpoTV is comparing apples to oranges.
Because they're a small company? That just doesn't matter. If you can't offer a similar product for similar prices it's not going to work. They aren't the only Korean league any more. You could argue that GSL is (a lot) better but I don't think a lot of people would agree with that.
This is what I don't really get. The paid for product is actually on par with SpoTVs. It's the free product that no one pays for that is now inferior from GOM. What you get for your money is actually not worse because of this.
It sounds like you are arguing that a viewer that did not sub is of no value.
On January 09 2015 23:13 farvacola wrote: ^this is simply untrue lol
nkr is still unable to account for the fact that Gom is literally the only SC2 broadcaster in the world to offer such a low quality stream option, including Kespa productions lol. Everyone needs an advocate, I suppose.
GOM is also the only non-major company to broadcast a weekly Sc2 league out of Korea. Comparing them to SpoTV is comparing apples to oranges.
Because they're a small company? That just doesn't matter. If you can't offer a similar product for similar prices it's not going to work. They aren't the only Korean league any more. You could argue that GSL is (a lot) better but I don't think a lot of people would agree with that.
This is what I don't really get. The paid for product is actually on par with SpoTVs. It's the free product that no one pays for that is now inferior from GOM. What you get for your money is actually not worse because of this.
It sounds like you are arguing that a viewer that did not sub is of no value.
Not of no value, but of less value.
But of higher potential value.
No, of potential equal value to be correct
I'm sure they thought about it. Are more people going to subscribe if we keep 480p free, or if we make it only 360? Judging by the numbers of subscribers, the first day was a success. Guess we'll have to wait and see how it works out for the rest of the season.
When Gom dies now, nobody will care anymore, SpoTV comes in.
240p is a joke. You need the basic viewers to generate the sub viewers you want to milk. But with 240p you will just get a one time effect of more people subbing for MEDIUM 480p! and then less and less basic viewers and less and less people who will sub. I subbed in the past, because S3 last year brought great games. But this is a joke. They did it without any notification just like a large fuck you to all the viewers, who maybe subbed or not. Many people like me subbed in the end of the season to give the money for something they have enjoyed the last 3 month, they pay for the finished product, not for the product, they will possible get. Now all these folks wount subb anymore after the season, but most of them will never sub again. Sub to thank for 240p high qualitiy starcraft? JOKE. I will sub this time SpoTV, either SSL or PL, i dont know yet.
The joke gets doubled, when you watch the korean youtube stream which has 1080p for koreans (and proxyusers like me) for free.
What they dont understand: They buisnessmodel with the englisch streams is to ask for money because the viewers like the product and are willing to support it. Nobody is willing to support someone, who gives you 240p and forces you to pay to watch something in watchable quality. Not in times, where you dont have to pay for all the streaming servers, because twitch/amazon gives you the infrastructure.
On January 09 2015 22:38 KeksX wrote: Much more surprising is that they still do anything for SC2 with 15k~ish viewers on twitch. Though I don't know if thats all viewers...
I guess monetizing so heavily is the only way they can make it profitable...?
Or add sponsors? Or involve community into sponsor relationship in order to get more money from the sponsors? Or 10239 different things that can anyone think about, not just showing the middle finger to the people because of whom you are alive...? :D Just imagine what is possible.
They've tried to get sponsors in the past but struggled, even when sc2 was bigger. Also they aren't alive because of people who watched for free on 480p. They are alive because of subscribers.
But I imagine Blizzard only cares about viewer numbers. Kinda strange to fund a tournaments price pool with these quality settings while (all the!) others offer better, including the ones who arrange their own price pool..
What does Blizzard have to do with this? They have nothing to do with GOM.
Like I said; They're funding their price pool. I'm just saying that I can't imagine them being happy about this. I'm adding a reason for this maybe being a stupid move by Gom.
Well it doesn't matter if Blizzard funds the prize pool. If they can't run GSL because it doesn't break even then what?
Well, then the competition takes over.
Competition? It's about the fact that running a starcraft 2 league in korea isnt profitable if noone wants to pay for it. I feel like all we have here are butthurt people who used to have awesome content for free. These people are now sad because it turns out nothing is actually free.
So when practically every single other SC2 broadcast provides 480p min, how exactly does this "nothing is free" argument make any sense? Even Kespa, of all the organizations in the world, is showing Gom up.
"Of all the organizations in the world" - you mean the only other company that broadcasts SC2 in Korea that happens to be bigger than GOM?
Yeah. Of course they're showing them.
Everyone saying "it doesn't matter if GOM dies, we have other broadcasts" is delusional. We have KeSPA/OGN and OlimoLeague and thats it. And if GOM is not profitable, how long do you think those guys are?
On January 09 2015 23:13 farvacola wrote: ^this is simply untrue lol
nkr is still unable to account for the fact that Gom is literally the only SC2 broadcaster in the world to offer such a low quality stream option, including Kespa productions lol. Everyone needs an advocate, I suppose.
GOM is also the only non-major company to broadcast a weekly Sc2 league out of Korea. Comparing them to SpoTV is comparing apples to oranges.
Because they're a small company? That just doesn't matter. If you can't offer a similar product for similar prices it's not going to work. They aren't the only Korean league any more. You could argue that GSL is (a lot) better but I don't think a lot of people would agree with that.
This is what I don't really get. The paid for product is actually on par with SpoTVs. It's the free product that no one pays for that is now inferior from GOM. What you get for your money is actually not worse because of this.
It sounds like you are arguing that a viewer that did not sub is of no value.
Not of no value, but of less value.
But of higher potential value.
No, of potential equal value to be correct
Correct. But the number of non subs will always be higher than of subs, so they value that isn't just money through subs, will drastically suffer if they shun non subs away with a low quality stream. It means less eyes on their ads, less people recommending GSL to their friends, less new players and no potential to grow in the future. The are milking the viewers they already have and are sacrificing their potential to grow I think. It's just no way to stay competitive, just a way to stay alive longer. Which the english stream should not be necessary for in the first place. But I see your point too and we'll just have to see what Gom will do in the future and how long they are able to keep the sub wall up.
Edit:
Yeah what you said!
On January 09 2015 23:40 nkr wrote: Guess we'll have to wait and see how it works out for the rest of the season.
I'm ok with locking high and above behind the paywall, they have to make money somewhere and it's completely justified but man, medium too? This is overblown and a huge step back.
On January 09 2015 23:56 vult wrote: Wasn't able to watch GSL since east coast USA, but this sounds like a mess :/
Personally if it was a bit more clear (maybe this is twitch.tv's fault) that the 13.99 isnt for a month, but for a season, there would be less complaints. I personally have paid 19.99 for seasons dating back to 2010, but the 13.99/month soured my usual habit of purchasing a ticket without hesitation.
I've always been fine with a paywall for highest quality but in an age where every single sport stream from a major organization is either free high quality or going free high quality or something like a $5 sub a month taking this much money for a product that has not proven itself to be better than the free products the past year is mind-boggling.
We do have to keep in mind that ultimately we are not the target audience anyway though, they really only care about Korean views and revenue.
On January 10 2015 00:05 Taronar wrote: I don't really understand that Koreans can just watch source on youtube for free. Basicly means that English stream has to pay for itself. New production costs which come up with English stream is just Tasteless and Artosis (and some material costs) so that can't be such a huge investment. Invest more in finding sponsors even in EU and AM should really fix that part up... Having low quality streams like that while begging for money in order to even continue to exist is just really bad business
Free Korean stream because that's the only viewer number they really care about.
I don't really understand that Koreans can just watch source on youtube for free. Basicly means that English stream has to pay for itself. New production costs which come up with English stream is just Tasteless and Artosis (and some material costs) so that can't be such a huge investment. Invest more in finding sponsors even in EU and AM should really fix that part up... Having low quality streams like that while begging for money in order to even continue to exist is just really bad business
On January 10 2015 00:05 Taronar wrote: I don't really understand that Koreans can just watch source on youtube for free. Basicly means that English stream has to pay for itself. New production costs which come up with English stream is just Tasteless and Artosis (and some material costs) so that can't be such a huge investment. Invest more in finding sponsors even in EU and AM should really fix that part up... Having low quality streams like that while begging for money in order to even continue to exist is just really bad business
I'd bet it has to do with the fact that the average EU/NA viewer has more money than the average KR viewer?
I only subbed to GSL like once or twice, since it was too early to watch when being in school. Last year PL came up and I subbed that (as a university student I can now watch that early). Now that there are only 2 days of PL a week I felt like I wanted to expand to either an SSL or a GSL sub as well to fill the hole. I just don´t like the feeling of being milked that GSL gave me with their step. So I decided to sub SSL. They feel more honest. Also: when I sub for 14 Dollars a season I don´t even get source? When I then read that Koreans get it for free I kinda feel as if I just was a big wallet to them. No thanks.
I bought premium, because I am not a hobo. Imo at some point every big organization will have to switch to a model that relies on subscriptions, because the free viewer numbers just aren't that great for SC2.
On January 09 2015 23:43 Clonester wrote: When Gom dies now, nobody will care anymore, SpoTV comes in.
240p is a joke. You need the basic viewers to generate the sub viewers you want to milk. But with 240p you will just get a one time effect of more people subbing for MEDIUM 480p! and then less and less basic viewers and less and less people who will sub. I subbed in the past, because S3 last year brought great games. But this is a joke. They did it without any notification just like a large fuck you to all the viewers, who maybe subbed or not. Many people like me subbed in the end of the season to give the money for something they have enjoyed the last 3 month, they pay for the finished product, not for the product, they will possible get. Now all these folks wount subb anymore after the season, but most of them will never sub again. Sub to thank for 240p high qualitiy starcraft? JOKE. I will sub this time SpoTV, either SSL or PL, i dont know yet.
The joke gets doubled, when you watch the korean youtube stream which has 1080p for koreans (and proxyusers like me) for free.
What they dont understand: They buisnessmodel with the englisch streams is to ask for money because the viewers like the product and are willing to support it. Nobody is willing to support someone, who gives you 240p and forces you to pay to watch something in watchable quality. Not in times, where you dont have to pay for all the streaming servers, because twitch/amazon gives you the infrastructure.
On January 09 2015 19:45 RHoudini wrote: You can always watch the Youtube (Korean) video. If you get a region-block (as I do), there are browser extensions like Hola http://hola.org/ that allow you to proxy around the world (pretend that you're viewing from Korea).
Thanks but it's says their server is down..
Edit: *Korean
I'm currently watching the Youtube stream, everything seems to work fine.
On January 10 2015 00:05 Taronar wrote: I don't really understand that Koreans can just watch source on youtube for free. Basicly means that English stream has to pay for itself. New production costs which come up with English stream is just Tasteless and Artosis (and some material costs) so that can't be such a huge investment. Invest more in finding sponsors even in EU and AM should really fix that part up... Having low quality streams like that while begging for money in order to even continue to exist is just really bad business
Well, though SC2 hasn't exactly been a huge hit with Korean fans, there are simply far more monetization options for GOM when it comes to those Korean fans. For example finals tickets, merchandise, and of course many of the sponsors GOM do manage to scrape up are often national brands, or international ones without the reach to really get anything from advertising to some German or Canadian viewer across the globe. Now yeah, this does mean that English content should account for a small part of their revenue if they want to succeed as a business, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't monetize it at all. And the most obvious -way they have to do so is through stream subscriptions. Obviously providing free decent quality streams has its own benefits and IMO is smarter, but them's the breaks.
I don't really see the point of paywall. Pretty much everyone uses torret/proxy/vpn/piratebay/restream/whatever is out there anyway. I guess a few subbed but is that even much (wasn't on twitch stream so wasn't sure how many did)? If they are counting on this to do something financially they should reconsider their options.
paying monthly multimedia stuff like TV canals or netflix or sky or whatever are going expensive from time to time. Never seen cheaper.
I remember paying 20€ for watching bundesliga + premier league + CL + Seria A + Premiera division ten years ago. Today only Bundesliga costs 15€ now. If you want CL (inclusive 2-3 premier league games weekly) costs another 10€ monthly. premiera div and seria A are nonexistent. If you want both in HD you have to pay another 10€.
On January 10 2015 00:31 Dingodile wrote: paying monthly multimedia stuff like TV canals or netflix or sky or whatever are going expensive from time to time. Never seen cheaper.
I remember paying 20€ for watching bundesliga + premier league + CL + Seria A + Premiera division ten years ago. Today only Bundesliga costs 15€ now. If you want CL (inclusive 2-3 premier league games weekly) costs another 10€ monthly. premiera div and seria A are nonexistent. If you want both in HD you have to pay another 10€.
^Agree
To me - if I want to watch CL - I watch the channel it's broadcasted on. If I want to watch bundes liga or other league - just I'm watching the different channel that is broadcasting it. - Different ways to provide the same service to different people, based on their economy model and aligning their needs.
In the end everyone gets his money and everyone gets their desired service.
Making people pay more for the same service, when there are new competitors who provide similar or even better service - this is complete nonsense. + blocking yourself to attract new potential viewers (potential customers) that is the top of the nonsense.
Gom are cool for bringing the korean pros in understandable (english) way. But they need to rethink their payment strategy. - Am still not sure if they just want to shift their viewers to another game instead of SC2, That could be pity.
+ If gom were smart enough they'd develop some sort of loyalty system through the years and provide value to their long term customers in alternate way by not making the wide audience suffer.
How is this even a thing in 2015 I can't understand.
You can't expect people to pay that much to watch one league, when all the others games on the market provide free HD streams. Putting stream quality behind paywalls isn't something that is a viable business practice in this day and age, the people at their marketing division need to wake the fuck up.
It's seriously absolutely silly that we're still dealing with GOM and there money-grubbing bullshit in 2015. In 2010 this wasn't considered acceptable, but we had no other alternatives. Now we do, S2SL and Proleague give us our Korean scene fix enough. I'm not a quality maniac, I can watch medium happily, but the fact that they have the audacity to make us pay $14 a month of medium quality is going to make me not watch GSL.
I can understand why they are doing it, they need the $$$ somehow. They don't get a lot of viewers compared to other games. Might as well milk the dedicated crowd. But as people said earlier this is 2015 and there are many alternatives for gsl. As much as i get nostalgic from watching tastosis cast marineking games in 360p(minus the orange borders) i will keep it this way and won't subscribe.
On January 10 2015 00:40 caznitch wrote: It's $13 people. $13 frickin' dollars. That's less than a beer in Denmark.
However it's about 13 beers in the Czech Republic. Honestly, it's not even that much (just beer is so cheap here), but with so much competiion out there, I don't really see myself having enough time to watch GSL (especially given the ever-unpleasant time slot for Europe) to pay even that much.
On January 09 2015 20:28 Clonester wrote: Hola to slow and other unbreakers dont use korean proxys. Maybe Europe to Korea is still such a bad connection.
So bye bye GSL. Maybe i watch the French Rebroadcasts, but thats it. SpoTV will take over for you, I dont need you anymore.
The_Templar does often a liveticker in the thread, but wouldnt it be cool if there would be official liveticker on the TL Mainpage, easy to acces, easy to read, because it is hard to follow The_Templars livereports during 100 pages of threads.
I won't frequently be able to Live Report GSL because I have an 8am class on those days.
On January 09 2015 20:28 Clonester wrote: Hola to slow and other unbreakers dont use korean proxys. Maybe Europe to Korea is still such a bad connection.
So bye bye GSL. Maybe i watch the French Rebroadcasts, but thats it. SpoTV will take over for you, I dont need you anymore.
The_Templar does often a liveticker in the thread, but wouldnt it be cool if there would be official liveticker on the TL Mainpage, easy to acces, easy to read, because it is hard to follow The_Templars livereports during 100 pages of threads.
I won't frequently be able to Live Report GSL because I have an 8am class on those days.
On January 10 2015 01:35 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: When TB get's fucking pissed at something, you know you fucked up. Or one of his players lost, but usually cause you fucked up.
On January 09 2015 20:28 Clonester wrote: Hola to slow and other unbreakers dont use korean proxys. Maybe Europe to Korea is still such a bad connection.
So bye bye GSL. Maybe i watch the French Rebroadcasts, but thats it. SpoTV will take over for you, I dont need you anymore.
The_Templar does often a liveticker in the thread, but wouldnt it be cool if there would be official liveticker on the TL Mainpage, easy to acces, easy to read, because it is hard to follow The_Templars livereports during 100 pages of threads.
I won't frequently be able to Live Report GSL because I have an 8am class on those days.
God, you really do have no passion anymore
That's what people told me four months ago. -.- I can't imagine that it would be profitable to run a lower quality stream since people will stop subscribing and fewer will watch.
This is my first time coming back to watching SC2 in better part of the past year and this was the first thing I saw. Not a great reintroduction to it. I get it's only $14 a season for high quality, not even source ($24).
Medium isn't free anymore? I've been busy and haven't been able to watch, but seriously? Low for non-subs? This isn't the way you do this. I'll go back to my "other" way of watching GSL then, it just takes a week or two.
On January 10 2015 01:54 TiberiusAk wrote: The vods on the GOM eXP official youtube channel are in English, and appear to go up to 1080p. (For group B even.)
On January 10 2015 01:54 TiberiusAk wrote: The vods on the GOM eXP official youtube channel are in English, and appear to go up to 1080p. (For group B even.)
On January 10 2015 01:54 TiberiusAk wrote: The vods on the GOM eXP official youtube channel are in English, and appear to go up to 1080p. (For group B even.)
Ouch, I remember GOM having so much content that paying and downloading a player was not a big deal. I can deal with shit tier quality, but looks like they can't compete with Spotv no more, which is sad.
It's a shame, I actually can easily afford to sub these days but...I just don't feel like there's enough content to justify $14 a season. GOM subs used to get a lot more value for the money, imo
The amount of content has greatly diverged from Tasteless and SDM casting every single game until their eyes bleed and the commentary devolves into monkey milk. That was worth paying for.
I feel like the live stream should be free in HD, but I have no problem paying per season. This is no more expensive than it has been in the past if I'm not wrong. I will gladly pay so I can see the VODs of some of the best SC2 action in the world.
Well cause I kept the stream open after it ended I saw that 125+ people subbed from the time that the games ended till now. I still think this is a bad idea and I just hate that you're forced to pay if you want to actually enjoy the matches. Such a shame the way they decided to do things.
Those TotalBiscuit posts are gold.
On January 10 2015 01:33 Noocta wrote: Here's TotalBiscuit opinion on it by the way
On January 10 2015 02:38 ChaseTheSun wrote: Well cause I kept the stream open after it ended I saw that 125+ people subbed from the time that the games ended till now. I still think this is a bad idea and I just hate that you're forced to pay if you want to actually enjoy the matches. Such a shame the way they decided to do things.
The post is kinda big, if mods thinks I should spoiler the tweets to make it more manageable, I'll do it.
My personal favorite.
I think that one is kind of wrong, because the Korean stream is free. Almost all the sponsors for those teams are Korean companies and don't really care about advertising to the foreign market.
They could offer something worthwhile for subs, instead of taking away something that creates no cost in additional infrastructure. In the long run this could hurt Korean players, if they fall back into faceless obscurity and nobody wants to see them in invitationals around the world.
On January 10 2015 01:54 TiberiusAk wrote: The vods on the GOM eXP official youtube channel are in English, and appear to go up to 1080p. (For group B even.)
On January 10 2015 02:38 ChaseTheSun wrote: Well cause I kept the stream open after it ended I saw that 125+ people subbed from the time that the games ended till now. I still think this is a bad idea and I just hate that you're forced to pay if you want to actually enjoy the matches. Such a shame the way they decided to do things.
Those TotalBiscuit posts are gold.
On January 10 2015 01:33 Noocta wrote: Here's TotalBiscuit opinion on it by the way
The post is kinda big, if mods thinks I should spoiler the tweets to make it more manageable, I'll do it.
My personal favorite.
I think that one is kind of wrong, because the Korean stream is free. Almost all the sponsors for those teams are Korean companies and don't really care about advertising to the foreign market.
Ahhh, you're right. Of course this makes it impossible to acquire international sponsors for a certainty now, not that they were to successful with that but still.
People complaining about free quality is so spoiled. Just pay for it if you wanna watch with nice quality. Being a parasite that contribute nothing but at the same time wants everything comes of like a pathetic douche.
On January 10 2015 02:38 ChaseTheSun wrote: Well cause I kept the stream open after it ended I saw that 125+ people subbed from the time that the games ended till now. I still think this is a bad idea and I just hate that you're forced to pay if you want to actually enjoy the matches. Such a shame the way they decided to do things.
Those TotalBiscuit posts are gold.
On January 10 2015 01:33 Noocta wrote: Here's TotalBiscuit opinion on it by the way
The post is kinda big, if mods thinks I should spoiler the tweets to make it more manageable, I'll do it.
My personal favorite.
I think that one is kind of wrong, because the Korean stream is free. Almost all the sponsors for those teams are Korean companies and don't really care about advertising to the foreign market.
Yes, but not all teams have Korean only sponsor's, including his team, Axiom.
On January 10 2015 02:38 ChaseTheSun wrote: Well cause I kept the stream open after it ended I saw that 125+ people subbed from the time that the games ended till now. I still think this is a bad idea and I just hate that you're forced to pay if you want to actually enjoy the matches. Such a shame the way they decided to do things.
Those TotalBiscuit posts are gold.
On January 10 2015 01:33 Noocta wrote: Here's TotalBiscuit opinion on it by the way
The post is kinda big, if mods thinks I should spoiler the tweets to make it more manageable, I'll do it.
My personal favorite.
I think that one is kind of wrong, because the Korean stream is free. Almost all the sponsors for those teams are Korean companies and don't really care about advertising to the foreign market.
Yes, but not all teams have Korean only sponsor's, including his team, Axiom.
Well, Axiom has only one player anyway. I don't think GOM is gonna bend over backwards for the sponsor of one guy who isn't even a favorite to go far
On January 10 2015 02:47 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: People complaining about free quality is so spoiled. Just pay for it if you wanna watch with nice quality. Being a parasite that contribute nothing but at the same time wants everything comes of like a pathetic douche.
The concept of being a parasite even though you are one of only maybe 15k foreigners bothering to watch the "best sc2 tournament in the world."
On January 10 2015 02:38 ChaseTheSun wrote: Well cause I kept the stream open after it ended I saw that 125+ people subbed from the time that the games ended till now. I still think this is a bad idea and I just hate that you're forced to pay if you want to actually enjoy the matches. Such a shame the way they decided to do things.
Those TotalBiscuit posts are gold.
On January 10 2015 01:33 Noocta wrote: Here's TotalBiscuit opinion on it by the way
The post is kinda big, if mods thinks I should spoiler the tweets to make it more manageable, I'll do it.
My personal favorite.
I think that one is kind of wrong, because the Korean stream is free. Almost all the sponsors for those teams are Korean companies and don't really care about advertising to the foreign market.
That is wrong: YoeFW, Dignitas, mYi, Inv, Samsung, RB, Acer, Axiom, DP, TL and TCM are in this GSL.
On January 10 2015 02:47 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: People complaining about free quality is so spoiled. Just pay for it if you wanna watch with nice quality. Being a parasite that contribute nothing but at the same time wants everything comes of like a pathetic douche.
When the competition is providing more for less, people are absolutely within their rights to be upset about this. Don't act so high and mighty.
meh, I used to subscribe to every season but they keep dropping the amount of games being broadcast and reduce the frequency of matches so I haven't bothered in a while. Was happy when tuned in the other day to actually be able to see the game but i guess I won't tune in anymore this season. SpoTV S2SL is just as good and SPL is superior so I have plenty to watch as is.
On January 10 2015 03:07 ReMinD_ wrote: Where do you guys even find low quality VODs? I watched game 1 of each set on Youtube and want to see the rest.
Last October, I contacted GOM and explained to them that the majority of GOM eXP related feedback pertained to the terrible VOD system that exists right now. Here is the response that I received:
We are currently aware of the displeasure from our viewers regarding the bad VOD system. Unfortunately, due to our service coalition with twitch, what we have currently is the best we can do with VODs.
Back when we were GOMTV.net, we had our own webpage dedicated to VODs and we even had our own player. But as of right now, we have to use the twitch and YouTube systems so we cannot freely change our services as we'd like to. We are looking into securing a better and improved VOD viewing process for 2015. However, there is no announcement date for this yet.
Speaking of sponsor relations, MANY organizations have criticized GOM for not releasing overall stream numbers to the organizations. FXO for one. Those stream numbers are important to the organizations so that they can pass on to their sponsors how many viewers they got their brands out to.
Do they still not release Stream numbers, other than the Twitch numbers?
To anyone who thinks people are just being spoiled, almost all other sc2 tournaments offer HD quality for free and don't have a shitty VOD system. Even OGN's LOL champions series can now be streamed in HD for free when they used to be behind a paywall.
What GOM is doing is complete backwards and an insult to the foreign community. Only the English stream is limited by a paywall, while the Korean stream is intentionally region blocked. This is a pure money grab, a la EA style. In the short term, they might have increased revenue from hardcore fans who subscribe, but in the long run this only hurts the sc2 scene from growing. The low quality stream does help
The sad thing about all of this is that I highly doubt Blizzard is going to do anything about it, despite having specific rules stating that WCS events must provide free english stream in at least 720p.
I've spent $200+ on gomtv.net but have yet to spend a single penny on gomexp. It's a shame, I really loved GOMTV.net and I still love the GSL because of all the memories. I used to pay for the quality when I was a college student and could stay up early in the morning.
But with a full-time job now, the vods are far more important to me and the shitty vod service just doesn't warrant it me paying.
At least with proleague, there're free videos up on esportstv.
On January 10 2015 03:48 ilikeredheads wrote: To anyone who thinks people are just being spoiled, almost all other sc2 tournaments offer HD quality for free and don't have a shitty VOD system. Even OGN's LOL champions series can now be streamed in HD for free when they used to be behind a paywall.
What GOM is doing is complete backwards and an insult to the foreign community. Only the English stream is limited by a paywall, while the Korean stream is intentionally region blocked. This is a pure money grab, a la EA style. In the short term, they might have increased revenue from hardcore fans who subscribe, but in the long run this only hurts the sc2 scene from growing. The low quality stream does help
The sad thing about all of this is that I highly doubt Blizzard is going to do anything about it, despite having specific rules stating that WCS events must provide free english stream in at least 720p.
It's not about being spoiled imo, it's ridiculous to expect people to pay for stream quality in 2015. We're supposed to be past that.
I wish I could watch some VODs (in English), even in low quality, without having to subscribe. Wednesday was a treat, and I knew it was too good to be true. I was able to sleep and then watch the games I missed the next day in whatever quality. Thanks GSL for the one day. I am debating whether or not I actually give a shit about GSL this season. Bought yearly subscriptions on gomtv.net back in the day, knowing that I was getting a good product. This twitch nonsense is just stupid. I don't want shitty little emotes, or to pay an additional $10 for a slightly higher quality stream than high. Has the winter made the staff at GomEXP daft?
On January 10 2015 03:48 ilikeredheads wrote: To anyone who thinks people are just being spoiled, almost all other sc2 tournaments offer HD quality for free and don't have a shitty VOD system. Even OGN's LOL champions series can now be streamed in HD for free when they used to be behind a paywall.
What GOM is doing is complete backwards and an insult to the foreign community. Only the English stream is limited by a paywall, while the Korean stream is intentionally region blocked. This is a pure money grab, a la EA style. In the short term, they might have increased revenue from hardcore fans who subscribe, but in the long run this only hurts the sc2 scene from growing. The low quality stream does help
The sad thing about all of this is that I highly doubt Blizzard is going to do anything about it, despite having specific rules stating that WCS events must provide free english stream in at least 720p.
Yeah I cannot see Blizz stepping up to the plate and doing something about it...
God I want them to though!!!
This is just a terrible state of affairs hurting an already fragile scene...
I usually suggest to people on the other games I play (Quakelive, Hearthstone, poker) to check out the GSL...there is totally no point in me doing so now...NO ONE, NO ONE can watch 360p in this day and age.
On January 10 2015 03:48 ilikeredheads wrote: To anyone who thinks people are just being spoiled, almost all other sc2 tournaments offer HD quality for free and don't have a shitty VOD system. Even OGN's LOL champions series can now be streamed in HD for free when they used to be behind a paywall.
What GOM is doing is complete backwards and an insult to the foreign community. Only the English stream is limited by a paywall, while the Korean stream is intentionally region blocked. This is a pure money grab, a la EA style. In the short term, they might have increased revenue from hardcore fans who subscribe, but in the long run this only hurts the sc2 scene from growing. The low quality stream does help
The sad thing about all of this is that I highly doubt Blizzard is going to do anything about it, despite having specific rules stating that WCS events must provide free english stream in at least 720p.
I feel very upset at this, will probably buy in that case. Which I have done before but I still think this is a very underhanden measure. I sure hope Blizzard lays down the law, or no wcs points =D
On January 10 2015 04:23 Shuffleblade wrote: I feel very upset at this, will probably buy in that case. Which I have done before but I still think this is a very underhanden measure. I sure hope Blizzard lays down the law, or no wcs points =D
If you're upset, don't buy. That's the biggest statement you can send to a company when you aren't appreciative of what they're selling.
On January 10 2015 04:23 Shuffleblade wrote: I feel very upset at this, will probably buy in that case. Which I have done before but I still think this is a very underhanden measure. I sure hope Blizzard lays down the law, or no wcs points =D
That would be wonderful!!~~
The fact that Korean viewers can watch on youtube in HD for free is a stick in the face too!~~
On January 10 2015 00:47 Lorning wrote: GOM is fucking pathetic these days.
You really are the new Shellbot
I've been hating on GOM for a while now, and not without reason
Oh, thought you were just stirring shit up. What else did they do wrong? I guess I missed some drama :o
My biggest problem with them is their decision to get rid of the GOMTV.net for this
I also ranted about their VOD system being shit, which it is
RIP single best Vod system in the entirety of esports
It was so good! It worked well, was easy to use, and was reliable.
On January 10 2015 03:25 tenklavir wrote: I loved GOMTV.net and its VOD system, and was a dedicated yearly ticket holder. Haven't watched a match since they went to Youtube/Twitch/whatever...
Yup, basically the same. Part of the reason I was willing to pay for it was because of how well the system worked. I could set up series, and work out without having to pause my exercise session to fix stupid VOD issues or player issues. It was a sad day when they took down their entire old site. I gave the new system a go but it just didn't work well, and the Youtube VOD stuff almost never worked as well as their site did.
On January 10 2015 03:25 tenklavir wrote: I loved GOMTV.net and its VOD system, and was a dedicated yearly ticket holder. Haven't watched a match since they went to Youtube/Twitch/whatever...
Yup, basically the same. Part of the reason I was willing to pay for it was because of how well the system worked. I could set up series, and work out without having to pause my exercise session to fix stupid VOD issues or player issues. It was a sad day when they took down their entire old site. I gave the new system a go but it just didn't work well, and the Youtube VOD stuff almost never worked as well as their site did.
Yup, I've been there and paid for watching GSL vods myself. Twitch is so horrible in comparison and the stream quality is horrible. Wont pay.
On January 10 2015 04:51 las91 wrote: I used to pay for every season without thinking back when they had the gom player.
Pretty obvious they only care about the KR viewerbase, just dont buy/sub and instead watch S2SL/Proleague.
Yes, S2SL and SPL actually have better production. And free vods. And casters that don't laugh at their own jokes more than half the broadcast.
Watching the french GSL stream actually isn't that bad. I don't understand it, but I don't understand Korean streams either.
On January 10 2015 04:34 afreecaTV.Char wrote: Everyone underestimates the autonomy the Korean region has. Even Blizzard Korea has a certain amount of freedom from HQ. This will not easily change.
I believe GOM is hurting more than people realize, but only time will tell. You wouldn't believe their license fee.
They'll feel super-hurting when their foreign fan-base evaporates. If the Koreans are getting the content for free, they're obviously not making much money off of them. That's not an excuse to gouge your only paying customers. There's a certain amount of shit you have to give away for free to get customers "in the door" (for lack of a better expression).
Considering we all have access to Youtube, and the same content the Koreans get for free, it makes zero sense to paywall something as trivial as a 720p English live stream. Locking the VODs makes sense, because that's the way it used to work, but it makes less sense when the VODs are still available as long as you're willing to watch them in Korean.
They're treating their foreign customers like shit. We're not talking about a charitable organization here, we're talking about a business. I don't care if they're hurting. They're giving shit away for free to Koreans. If they were hurting so badly, they would charge Koreans the same way they do everybody else.
On January 10 2015 04:34 afreecaTV.Char wrote: Everyone underestimates the autonomy the Korean region has. Even Blizzard Korea has a certain amount of freedom from HQ. This will not easily change.
I believe GOM is hurting more than people realize, but only time will tell. You wouldn't believe their license fee.
They'll feel super-hurting when their foreign fan-base evaporates. If the Koreans are getting the content for free, they're obviously not making much money off of them. That's not an excuse to gouge your only paying customers. There's a certain amount of shit you have to give away for free to get customers "in the door" (for lack of a better expression).
Considering we all have access to Youtube, and the same content the Koreans get for free, it makes zero sense to paywall something as trivial as a 720p English live stream. Locking the VODs makes sense, because that's the way it used to work, but it makes less sense when the VODs are still available as long as you're willing to watch them in Korean.
They're treating their foreign customers like shit. We're not talking about a charitable organization here, we're talking about a business. I don't care if they're hurting. They're giving shit away for free to Koreans. If they were hurting so badly, they would charge Koreans the same way they do everybody else.
They even blocked the YT stream today.. I'm so disappointed
On January 10 2015 05:07 Penev wrote: They even blocked the YT stream today.. I'm so disappointed
They blocked the live stream, but the Korean VODs are all here, in HD. No reason to subscribe unless you absolutely need to watch an English cast. Thankfully, Starcraft is like a universal language and viewers can surely determine what's going on without the legendary banter of Tastosis.
This complaining is rediculous. GSL is a Buisness which provides entertainment. When you own a buisness there's a lot of expenses, in this case, Casters prize money etc. The subscription cost is 13.99$ which is almost the same as going to see 1 movie where I live at least. Stop being cheap and pay the $13.99 and then you don't have to worry about it the whole season. I know a lot of people here don't have a lot of money but seriously people $13.99..... SUPPORT GSL for all the other seasons they gave you free entertainment and then you get all the vods too. None of you have any idea of their financial situation so please pay up or quit whining about 14bux.
The problem is that they are trying to earn peanuts in a shrinking niche market. I think this strategy can never ever be profitable and is outright stupid.
They need ways to entice global sponsors and earn money solely based on advertising deals with said global sponsors which could be a good match for their global audience. However i suspect that the eyeballs are just not there to land any of the sponsors they would need to path the way to a healthy sustainable growing business.
In my opinion Tasteless and Artosis will be out of a job soon since i don't see a viable way to continue justifying the english stream, unless of course Blizzards opens their chequebook.
Of course this strategy can be profitable. $13.99 is nothing to people with jobs that don't smoke weed all day. Plenty of people will pay as they have in the past. Just by you not watching the stream anymore GSL doesn't doesn't lose anything. You really think they're making money off ad revenue from the 2-4k average foreign viewiers LOL idiots on this thread seriously. The problem with all these other leagues is that none of these casters are as good as Tasteless, and Artosis and you all know that.
I've been thinking about this all day and have come to the conclusion that you're all ridiculous. Five bucks a month for the best SC2 tournament on the planet is a great fucking deal, if you don't like it then you shouldn't buy it. All the people posting that they think GSL is crap anyway should shut up double hard, why would it bother you that you can't see content you don't enjoy?
On January 09 2015 20:03 ilikeredheads wrote: Blizzard should be notified about this. If they really care about the game and their own rules, they should stop this nonsense.
funny thing is that this only happens in starcraft. all the dota tournaments are free to watch in hd and to watch the vods.
It's not about being cheap and not wanting to pay the 14 bucks. It's the fact that this system is bad for the scene, especially when the sc2's market is shrinking and you have competitions (within and outside sc2) that offer HD streams and VODs for free. It's a farce that in one hand you have Blizzard stating they want to have high standards for all WCS events while on the other hand, there's GSL, their supposedly most premiere tournament, completely ignores those requirements. This double standard only alienates viewers.
Starcraft as an eSport isn't in a great spot right now. Not where it was a couple years ago for sure. That should be obvious to everyone.
Pulling a stunt like this is ridiculous, and does nothing to pull in viewers from other eSports. I sincerely hope this isn't their future business model, GSL is an integral part of what made Starcraft 2 a successful eSport three years ago.
I don't think Starcraft is going to pull any more viewers in at the moment so probably makes sense from GOM's perspective to rinse what they can from the fans they have.
On January 10 2015 05:46 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've been thinking about this all day and have come to the conclusion that you're all ridiculous. Five bucks a month for the best SC2 tournament on the planet is a great fucking deal, if you don't like it then you shouldn't buy it. All the people posting that they think GSL is crap anyway should shut up double hard, why would it bother you that you can't see content you don't enjoy?
Did you forget to think about the part where there is a huge picture in the OP that says for any tournament that has WCS points on the line there is a required stream quality set by blizzard so that the event hosts a certain level of professionalism accessible to everyone?
I think that is the real issue everyone is kind of getting mad about here. It is supposed to be free. It isn't. It would be nice to have a real response from GOM or Blizzard/Starcraft on this.
It's not about being cheap and not wanting to pay the 14 bucks. It's the fact that this system is bad for the scene, especially when the sc2's market is shrinking and you have competitions (within and outside sc2) that offer HD streams and VODs for free. It's a farce that in one hand you have Blizzard stating they want to have high standards for all WCS events while on the other hand, there's GSL, their supposedly most premiere tournament, completely ignores those requirements. This double standard only alienates viewers.
On January 10 2015 05:45 Psycho777 wrote: Of course this strategy can be profitable. $13.99 is nothing to people with jobs that don't smoke weed all day. Plenty of people will pay as they have in the past. Just by you not watching the stream anymore GSL doesn't doesn't lose anything. You really think they're making money off ad revenue from the 2-4k average foreign viewiers LOL idiots on this thread seriously. The problem with all these other leagues is that none of these casters are as good as Tasteless, and Artosis and you all know that.
Saw this post in reddit, but yeah. There are definitely casters who are better than Tasteless atm. You are pretty delusional if you think Tasteless is one of the best still. Apollo, Nathanias, Artosis, Tod, Rotterdam, Kaelaris all are better imo.
(a bit rude title on the youtube clip, but wasn't anything I could control sorry). + Show Spoiler +
Also, with Starleague and Proleague I am not even so sure GSL is the best sc2 tournament anymore either.
Considering that the viewer numbers are at a low level (even though stable I believe? I'm also guilty of not watching much anymore, dunno why) this is a very dangerous move. I can see though that they have to finance their English cast somehow, but I do not think this is the right move. Ah well, will be the first GSL season since GSL open one I won't sub to, though mainly due to my diminished interest.
On January 10 2015 05:46 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've been thinking about this all day and have come to the conclusion that you're all ridiculous. Five bucks a month for the best SC2 tournament on the planet is a great fucking deal, if you don't like it then you shouldn't buy it. All the people posting that they think GSL is crap anyway should shut up double hard, why would it bother you that you can't see content you don't enjoy?
Did you forget to think about the part where there is a huge picture in the OP that says for any tournament that has WCS points on the line there is a required stream quality set by blizzard so that the event hosts a certain level of professionalism accessible to everyone?
Could you maybe link to the rule that says that "any tournament that has WCS points on the line" has to have high quality streaming? Because if such a rule exists then obviously you're right and Blizzard should step in and enforce their licensing contract, but as far as I can tell there is no such rule and you people who keep declaring that they're entitled to free high-quality SC2 streams are just interpreting a rule that doesn't apply to the GSL in a way that lets you engage in the community's favorite pasttime: Being angry on the Internet. Meanwhile I've dropped the cost of two paperbacks and will spend the next three months listening to my favorite casters cast my favorite tournament.
This thread is full of people who love the SC2 scene but aren't willing to sacrifice a beer a month to support it and are just desperate to watch their two least favorite shitty casters for free. And mixed in with all the rage is a deep sadness that the scene isn't just thriving and growing, I wonder why that might be?
On January 10 2015 05:46 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've been thinking about this all day and have come to the conclusion that you're all ridiculous. Five bucks a month for the best SC2 tournament on the planet is a great fucking deal, if you don't like it then you shouldn't buy it. All the people posting that they think GSL is crap anyway should shut up double hard, why would it bother you that you can't see content you don't enjoy?
Did you forget to think about the part where there is a huge picture in the OP that says for any tournament that has WCS points on the line there is a required stream quality set by blizzard so that the event hosts a certain level of professionalism accessible to everyone?
Could you maybe link to the rule that says that "any tournament that has WCS points on the line" has to have high quality streaming? Because if such a rule exists then obviously you're right and Blizzard should step in and enforce their licensing contract, but as far as I can tell there is no such rule and you people who keep declaring that they're entitled to free high-quality SC2 streams are just interpreting a rule that doesn't apply to the GSL in a way that lets you engage in the community's favorite pasttime: Being angry on the Internet. Meanwhile I've dropped the cost of two paperbacks and will spend the next three months listening to my favorite casters cast my favorite tournament.
This thread is full of people who love the SC2 scene but aren't willing to sacrifice a beer a month to support it and are just desperate to watch their two least favorite shitty casters for free. And mixed in with all the rage is a deep sadness that the scene isn't just thriving and growing, I wonder why that might be?
reading the OP would be a good start to answer your first question.
Yeah there's two problems with this. 1) Like many others have posted its supposed to be free, its part of the deal with blizzard if they want to hand out world championship points (WCS). This requirement from blizzard is to keep tournaments professional, GSL is not acting professional and is basically going back what they have agreed on. The points should be retracted unless GSL fix this, this is no different than any other breach of contract. Do X get Y, then you don't do X.
This is NOT about not wanting to pay the money or not understanding "what running a business means" or their "economical situation". They have agreed on supplying a certain service, if they don't they flat out fail everyone, both their fanbase and Blizzard.
2) Korea gets it for free, why should we have to pay for something that they get for free. This aggravates people for a good reason, its not a good business model and it does serve to turn people off. GSL agree to supply English stream 720p for free, they then give that service to the viewers they have not promised it and screws over the ones they made a deal with.
Its just not acceptable, even if you do understand their situation and want to support them you still have to agree that this is playing dirty.
On January 10 2015 05:46 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've been thinking about this all day and have come to the conclusion that you're all ridiculous. Five bucks a month for the best SC2 tournament on the planet is a great fucking deal, if you don't like it then you shouldn't buy it. All the people posting that they think GSL is crap anyway should shut up double hard, why would it bother you that you can't see content you don't enjoy?
Did you forget to think about the part where there is a huge picture in the OP that says for any tournament that has WCS points on the line there is a required stream quality set by blizzard so that the event hosts a certain level of professionalism accessible to everyone?
Could you maybe link to the rule that says that "any tournament that has WCS points on the line" has to have high quality streaming? Because if such a rule exists then obviously you're right and Blizzard should step in and enforce their licensing contract, but as far as I can tell there is no such rule and you people who keep declaring that they're entitled to free high-quality SC2 streams are just interpreting a rule that doesn't apply to the GSL in a way that lets you engage in the community's favorite pasttime: Being angry on the Internet. Meanwhile I've dropped the cost of two paperbacks and will spend the next three months listening to my favorite casters cast my favorite tournament.
This thread is full of people who love the SC2 scene but aren't willing to sacrifice a beer a month to support it and are just desperate to watch their two least favorite shitty casters for free. And mixed in with all the rage is a deep sadness that the scene isn't just thriving and growing, I wonder why that might be?
reading the OP would be a good start to answer your first question.
Well, apparently, those rules don't apply to GSL, ESL and now also SpotTV (those rules are for non premier league like tournaments like Dreamhack etc) which is absurd in itself; The most important tournaments do not have to have the free 720p stream. Luckily only Gom has chosen not to do so..
On January 10 2015 05:46 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've been thinking about this all day and have come to the conclusion that you're all ridiculous. Five bucks a month for the best SC2 tournament on the planet is a great fucking deal, if you don't like it then you shouldn't buy it. All the people posting that they think GSL is crap anyway should shut up double hard, why would it bother you that you can't see content you don't enjoy?
Did you forget to think about the part where there is a huge picture in the OP that says for any tournament that has WCS points on the line there is a required stream quality set by blizzard so that the event hosts a certain level of professionalism accessible to everyone?
Could you maybe link to the rule that says that "any tournament that has WCS points on the line" has to have high quality streaming? Because if such a rule exists then obviously you're right and Blizzard should step in and enforce their licensing contract, but as far as I can tell there is no such rule and you people who keep declaring that they're entitled to free high-quality SC2 streams are just interpreting a rule that doesn't apply to the GSL in a way that lets you engage in the community's favorite pasttime: Being angry on the Internet. Meanwhile I've dropped the cost of two paperbacks and will spend the next three months listening to my favorite casters cast my favorite tournament.
This thread is full of people who love the SC2 scene but aren't willing to sacrifice a beer a month to support it and are just desperate to watch their two least favorite shitty casters for free. And mixed in with all the rage is a deep sadness that the scene isn't just thriving and growing, I wonder why that might be?
reading the OP would be a good start to answer your first question.
Well, apparently, those rules don't apply to GSL, ESL and now also SpotTV (those rules are for non premier league like tournaments like Dreamhack etc) which is absurd in itself; The most important tournaments do not have to have the free 720p stream. Luckily only Gom has chosen not to do so..
lol so theses rules don't apply to 90% of the top lvl sc2 broadcasted ?
On January 10 2015 05:46 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've been thinking about this all day and have come to the conclusion that you're all ridiculous. Five bucks a month for the best SC2 tournament on the planet is a great fucking deal, if you don't like it then you shouldn't buy it. All the people posting that they think GSL is crap anyway should shut up double hard, why would it bother you that you can't see content you don't enjoy?
Did you forget to think about the part where there is a huge picture in the OP that says for any tournament that has WCS points on the line there is a required stream quality set by blizzard so that the event hosts a certain level of professionalism accessible to everyone?
Could you maybe link to the rule that says that "any tournament that has WCS points on the line" has to have high quality streaming? Because if such a rule exists then obviously you're right and Blizzard should step in and enforce their licensing contract, but as far as I can tell there is no such rule and you people who keep declaring that they're entitled to free high-quality SC2 streams are just interpreting a rule that doesn't apply to the GSL in a way that lets you engage in the community's favorite pasttime: Being angry on the Internet. Meanwhile I've dropped the cost of two paperbacks and will spend the next three months listening to my favorite casters cast my favorite tournament.
This thread is full of people who love the SC2 scene but aren't willing to sacrifice a beer a month to support it and are just desperate to watch their two least favorite shitty casters for free. And mixed in with all the rage is a deep sadness that the scene isn't just thriving and growing, I wonder why that might be?
reading the OP would be a good start to answer your first question.
Well, apparently, those rules don't apply to GSL, ESL and now also SpotTV (those rules are for non premier league like tournaments like Dreamhack etc) which is absurd in itself; The most important tournaments do not have to have the free 720p stream. Luckily only Gom has chosen not to do so..
lol so theses rules don't apply to 90% of the top lvl sc2 broadcasted ?
On January 10 2015 05:46 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've been thinking about this all day and have come to the conclusion that you're all ridiculous. Five bucks a month for the best SC2 tournament on the planet is a great fucking deal, if you don't like it then you shouldn't buy it. All the people posting that they think GSL is crap anyway should shut up double hard, why would it bother you that you can't see content you don't enjoy?
On January 10 2015 05:45 Psycho777 wrote: Of course this strategy can be profitable. $13.99 is nothing to people with jobs that don't smoke weed all day. Plenty of people will pay as they have in the past. Just by you not watching the stream anymore GSL doesn't doesn't lose anything. You really think they're making money off ad revenue from the 2-4k average foreign viewiers LOL idiots on this thread seriously. The problem with all these other leagues is that none of these casters are as good as Tasteless, and Artosis and you all know that.
Saw this post in reddit, but yeah. There are definitely casters who are better than Tasteless atm. You are pretty delusional if you think Tasteless is one of the best still. Apollo, Nathanias, Artosis, Tod, Rotterdam, Kaelaris all are better imo.
(a bit rude title on the youtube clip, but wasn't anything I could control sorry). + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSghAePk1Aw
Also, with Starleague and Proleague I am not even so sure GSL is the best sc2 tournament anymore either.
Christ on a bike the stronger colors looks HIDEOUS.
On January 10 2015 06:21 KelsierSC wrote: I don't think Starcraft is going to pull any more viewers in at the moment so probably makes sense from GOM's perspective to rinse what they can from the fans they have.
Seriously, I could not care less. I did not even watch ProLeague, I barely watch any SC2 anymore and I bet a lot of people are the same. So I don't think they are making a lot of bank. SC2 is just no fun anymore, not even to watch, thats why the community has become so small.
#1. stop ragging on Tasteless he's starcraft fucking royalty. The whole scene would not exist without trail blazers like him so just keep that in mind while your bashing someone who - in my opinion is one of the few colonists who deserve a MBE.
#2. stop acting like self entitled brats complaining about a free version of a premium service, don't like it... pay for it. Buy less alcohol you student bums. Work it out, the amount of hours worth of content you get for the price of one meal.... it's value for money. The fact that you get other regions for free doesn't even come into it, GSL is the fucking premier league of starcraft. The other regions don't produce blizzcon winners for a reason - they are inferior.
maybe sponsors can start caring more about other leagues like ssl.
The sponsor/advertising problem is a great point! Thats an issue that needs to be addressed asap before the teams start losing money and our pro scene starts to disappear..
On January 10 2015 08:56 SharkStarcraft wrote: i miss gomtv.net, the gom player, all that good stuff...
Me too. The old VOD system was definitely worth paying for, and honestly? Their production and stuff was a lot more worth it back when they were still GOMTV imo
On January 10 2015 09:19 Fionn wrote: I remember when everyone shit on the old GOM TV Player.
I loved it. God bless you, you orange blob player.
I actually loved it, even though sometimes it wasn't working for me.
Ah nostalgia...
Yea the GOM TV Player was amazing. I really miss GSL from those days it was the best thing ever in SC2
I still use it for most my media...
also
I wanted to ask Psione about the whole thing but I had a feeling that he wouldn't respond as they probably don't want anything to go public. Nice thing that they are trying to do something but will they manage to change anything is the real question.
On January 10 2015 06:21 KelsierSC wrote: I don't think Starcraft is going to pull any more viewers in at the moment so probably makes sense from GOM's perspective to rinse what they can from the fans they have.
That is a terrible business model.
I'm 99% sure that isn't what they are doing. But if it is, then E-Sports is a joke, and we're getting taken for a ride. And we'll see the clowns running the GSL again in some other here today gone tomorrow endeavor.
On January 10 2015 08:27 TerranHwaiting wrote:
I barely watch any SC2 anymore and I bet a lot of people are the same. So I don't think they are making a lot of bank. SC2 is just no fun anymore, not even to watch, thats why the community has become so small.
I imagine that I am not alone when I wish we could go back to 2011. Just revert the game back to that point, the maps too. And instead of waiting for the maps to balance the game, let's actually fix the 4 Gate without giving Protoss a skilless F button that stops all early attacks, fix the 1-1-1 without making rush distances so huge, not add the Widow Mine into the game to replace the awesome and iconic Siege Tank, fix Vortex by making the Carrier useful instead of adding another redundant long range capital ship, not add Swarm Hosts into the game, ect...
I've been wanting to come back and play SC2, and if I do, it will probably be on the WOL ladder.
I don't see what the fuss is all about really. Last year I paid ~$100 for the entire year, and this year it's $14x4 seasons which is $56... almost half price, unless I miscalculated somewhere. Cmon guys, they have to make their money somehow.
I do detest the current twitch vod system though. The old gomtv.net was much better.
On January 10 2015 16:11 Antisocialmunky wrote: I don't know to how comprehend the irony that you can watch Brood War free at higher quality that this... What even.
Has nothing to do with money for me. I bought the yearly ticket for GOMTV every year, but the Twitch/Youtube VOD structure is unusable compared to GOMTV.net and especially their mobile site which I used to love watching on my tablet. Since the move, I have not subscribed...just hoping they go back some day.
I'll resume paying GOM when they restore a reasonable VOD service. Moving to twitch is no excuse for the 0 effort management. But then everything else they do these days is 0 effort.
This is what happens when you whiners complain about downloading a streaming client... it takes away GOM's freedom and forces everyone to rely on twitch's service; giving them absolutely dominance over the way everything functions.
so, i had proleague charge me for my sub, and i haven't been given any of the sub features. i messaged them twice and now have opened a paypal dispute.
i normally pay GSL for a whole year, but now they don't even offer it. i bought my sub though, because the low quality only is ridiculous. kids out of their parents houses are pushin 1080p 60fps without a hitch...
this makes me extremely disappointed with the state of starcraft right now. both have literally NO VOD organization. both of them have NO SUPPORT if you have an issue with a payment or anything else like regular feedback.
THESE ARE THE TWO GREATEST STARCRAFT ORGANIZATIONS...
so, how does http://www.gomexp.com/en/index.gom exist, but we can't have anything at all like the old gomtv.net... this just all makes no sense and is very frustrating... i only want to give them my money and watch the best starcraft in the world.
On January 10 2015 18:46 Advantageous wrote: This is what happens when you whiners complain about downloading a streaming client... it takes away GOM's freedom and forces everyone to rely on twitch's service; giving them absolutely dominance over the way everything functions.
No, this is what happens when old businessmen don't understand the media they are dealing with.
I think it is all Tasteless and Artosis fault, now hear me out first: You are right that GSL never wanted to use twitch, the infrastructure does not cost them anything, but they don't understand how twitch works. They still want to controll everything. What they need are people like Forsen or CohCarrnage, though they don't care about sc2 or need a job, but they get how to make money on twitch. Maybe livibee and Winter, though they are way inferior casters to Tastosis, could stand up to the executives and tell them what needs to be done. This missuse of twitch is throwing away growth, player exposure, reputation and in the end, lots of money.
If Tasteless and Artosis hadn't lost all their passion, they would keep developing, their casting is top notch, but they need to become more, they need to learn how to handle the businessside of things. With the tons of memes they create on a daily basis they could be a twitch-goldmine. Instead of filling up time with random chatter they could interact with the twitch chat - by reading out donation message of 2 dollars and above like forsen does. If they don't step the fuck up, I think they won't have a secure job for much longer, which would really suck .
On January 10 2015 17:31 BathTubNZ wrote: I'll resume paying GOM when they restore a reasonable VOD service. Moving to twitch is no excuse for the 0 effort management. But then everything else they do these days is 0 effort.
On January 10 2015 21:25 Dingodile wrote: didnt gom said in 2010 that they needed "foreigner money" to pay artosis&tasteless? Maybe they need it again.
Sounds legit. Those 2 making the big money these days and all.
Tbh I'm very disappointed to see GOM doing this, I've bought several seasonal tickets throughout SC2's history to support them, but if this isn't reverted, I won't watch GSL anymore.
It's 2015, after all, I think you can expect a little more than that (given the fact GOM quality has always been kinda off/behind)!
i have been disappointed by GOM for a while now, feels like a decline just going down hill first the new site is much worse than the previous one then they completely mess up the VOD system which was awesome before they cant even take proper care of the VODS on twitch- just look at it. To watch for instance group B from the GSL there's like 6 different videos, all cut at different times. there's a 2 min video with just waiting screen, there's one vod of 3 hours that just cuts randomly in- then there's 3 more VODS that just cut as the games are going. even personal streamers on twitch have much more organized VOD system, it's a terrible mess and painful to browse through
and now.. the last drop- the live quality for non subs it's 360p.. at the very best. felt like watching 240p.. a step backwards - look at the other esports all offering great quality for free. between the fact that the viewership numbers of GSL are already patheticly low and this terrible set up i can only foresee them going even lower. i know i won't be watching anymore GSL for a while, probably just catch up proleague when it's on and that's about it
On January 10 2015 18:46 Advantageous wrote: This is what happens when you whiners complain about downloading a streaming client... it takes away GOM's freedom and forces everyone to rely on twitch's service; giving them absolutely dominance over the way everything functions.
Imagine if this website had GOM.tv/vods/ as its url. This is what we'd like.
On January 10 2015 16:11 Antisocialmunky wrote: I don't know to how comprehend the irony that you can watch Brood War free at higher quality that this... What even.
About the Low stream, it would be okay if you would be able to follow the game, but Zerg creep on high graphics doesn't work for a 240p stream, so it feels like putting stuff behind a paywall and not only switch to a lower quality. Since I assume people test out how changes will look like beforehand, I guess they were aware about this animated ground > 240p problem and did it on purpose.
And I miss the Gom player too. I wonder if people thought it would end up like this when they were complaining about it. And that Korea is starting to only focus on Korea is not something that happened overnight.
I actually enjoy both the S2SL and SSL more than GSL recently. Spotv has cleaner layouts, smoother streams, better casters, free vods etc and Sonic/the staff on OGN is/are driven by pure passion it seems... If only + Show Spoiler +
On January 10 2015 21:25 Dingodile wrote: didnt gom said in 2010 that they needed "foreigner money" to pay artosis&tasteless? Maybe they need it again.
Not going to get out any sort of pitchfork and rage at them for this, because I get that a business is a business and I'll be watching it either way (even though I don't have the money to sub for HQ at the moment), but is this really a good decision? Almost every other esport, and pretty much every tournament in SC2 has free HQ for the most part. There's a couple of exceptions, but their lowest quality is medium, which is still much better than low. Is this going to actually make gom more money? Or is it just going to turn people off the product?
BUMP! Really hope something is done about this. I have been an avid gsl fan for a couple years. I cannot afford the price to sub. I will have to stop watching, as I cannot support GSL after seeing how unfair and greedy they have become. There is no way to successfully argue/rationalize this decision. #0fuck0buck for you GSL
People were spamming “༼ ᕤºل͟º ༽ᕤ MEDIUM OR RIOT ༼ ᕤºل͟º ༽ᕤ” in chat so they put it in subscriber only mode then the gsl channel typed “totally owned” in chat. This is very unprofessional of them.
On January 10 2015 20:40 Haruhi wrote: If Tasteless and Artosis hadn't Lost all their passion, they would keep developing, their casting is Top notch, but they need to become more, they need to learn How to handle the businessside of things. With the tons of memes they create on a daily basis they could be a twitch-goldmine. Instead of filling up time with random chatter they could interact with the twitch chat - by reading out donation message of 2 dollars and above like Forsen does. If they don't step the fuck up, I think they won't have a secure job for much longer, Which would really suck .
It's a tournament, not their personal stream. It also is not their job to handle the business side of things. They are casters, hired to cast games.
I also wouldn't call "reading out donation message of 2 dollars" and reading twitch chat the business side of things. This is an issue with GOM; Artosis and Tasteless have nothing to do with it.
On January 11 2015 00:51 neptunusfisk wrote: I actually enjoy both the S2SL and SSL more than GSL recently. Spotv has cleaner layouts, smoother streams, better casters, free vods etc and Sonic/the staff on OGN is/are driven by pure passion it seems... If only + Show Spoiler +
On January 11 2015 07:18 alphaboss wrote: BUMP! Really hope something is done about this. I have been an avid gsl fan for a couple years. I cannot afford the price to sub. I will have to stop watching, as I cannot support GSL after seeing how unfair and greedy they have become. There is no way to successfully argue/rationalize this decision. #0fuck0buck for you GSL
People were spamming “༼ ᕤºل͟º ༽ᕤ MEDIUM OR RIOT ༼ ᕤºل͟º ༽ᕤ” in chat so they put it in subscriber only mode then the gsl channel typed “totally owned” in chat. This is very unprofessional of them.
That's way out of the line.
On January 11 2015 01:24 goiflin wrote: Not going to get out any sort of pitchfork and rage at them for this, because I get that a business is a business and I'll be watching it either way (even though I don't have the money to sub for HQ at the moment), but is this really a good decision? Almost every other esport, and pretty much every tournament in SC2 has free HQ for the most part. There's a couple of exceptions, but their lowest quality is medium, which is still much better than low. Is this going to actually make gom more money? Or is it just going to turn people off the product?
The current esports business model revolves around attracting as many viewers as possible and giving them incentives to pay for things sometimes are actually not the stream/video content itself, Valve's Dota 2 is currently the pinnacle of this model. In the streaming business this reflects as subscriber benefits and donations, which also relies on massive numbers of viewer base to begin with, see what GOM is doing? They are doing exactly the opposite by giving its viewers unpleasant experience, and charge for what is widely considered as baseline free service, it doesn't help either that its competitions offer better service and similarily good content for way less or even free as well.
Proxy, Korean HD Youtube Stream for free with better casters (even you understand GG and that is, they still better ) and shit on this shit. Gom must have serious problems, the last stream there had maybe a ration of 1 green thumbs to 3 red thumbs. On Kr_Stream. Normally on Youtube you have 90 green to 10 red or better.
On January 11 2015 07:18 alphaboss wrote: BUMP! Really hope something is done about this. I have been an avid gsl fan for a couple years. I cannot afford the price to sub. I will have to stop watching, as I cannot support GSL after seeing how unfair and greedy they have become. There is no way to successfully argue/rationalize this decision. #0fuck0buck for you GSL
People were spamming “༼ ᕤºل͟º ༽ᕤ MEDIUM OR RIOT ༼ ᕤºل͟º ༽ᕤ” in chat so they put it in subscriber only mode then the gsl channel typed “totally owned” in chat. This is very unprofessional of them.
I was actually neutral with the gsl doing something like this, but this is really really unprofessional. Now I'm extremely disappointed with how gsl is doing things.
GOM would be better off dumping tastosis and letting more involved community broadcasters stream/cast the matches such as basetrade or even khaldor from his apartment. The fact that nobody in the community with clout besides TB is speaking up is atrocious. Sad state this game is in right now.
Well next GSL round I am certainly tuning in to SPAM SPAM SPAM ༼ ᕤºل͟º ༽ᕤ MEDIUM OR RIOT ༼ ᕤºل͟º ༽ᕤ ... they will turn sub mode on again of course. But as a humble non sub what choice do I have??? What power do I have??? They want me to bend over and swallow 360p...Fuck no!
I support SC2 by playing it..advertising it on other forums and games...I sub when I choose to and not when a company tries to cannive me into it. Hell I even try and get all my friends into sc2...GSL aint getting any recommendations until this is changed.
On January 11 2015 11:19 johnbongham wrote: GOM would be better off dumping tastosis and letting more involved community broadcasters stream/cast the matches such as basetrade or even khaldor from his apartment. The fact that nobody in the community with clout besides TB is speaking up is atrocious. Sad state this game is in right now.
Ya thank goodness TB is making some noise about this. Have not heard squat from any other casters...Some Team Liquid people have been vocal though..Which is GREAT!~~
On January 11 2015 01:17 xTJx wrote: Looks like Gom took the same aproach Blizzard does to promote SC2, and it is to not care about us at all.
Bit drunk so I'm going to be blunt, I respect your opinion.
This is the same exact thing GOM did pre-WCS. WCS spoiled us but also hurt GOM's income.
You still get to watch GOM, and it really is not that bad quality. Worst thing is sometimes you squint to see supply numbers.
I think people are heavily overreacting to a business that clearly cares for SC2 esports in regards to a business decision by them.
Honestly, the biggest problem of that decision of that it puts a barrier to entry to the best SC2 play for people that are not sc2 fans to begin with.
If someone come and ask where can he watch the best starcraft, and you telel him it's this shitty blurry stream unless he pays 15 bucks, when all the others games provide free HD, they're not going to hesitate long what to watch and support ...
On January 11 2015 01:17 xTJx wrote: Looks like Gom took the same aproach Blizzard does to promote SC2, and it is to not care about us at all.
This is the same exact thing GOM did pre-WCS. WCS spoiled us but also hurt GOM's income.
except pre WCS GOM had their own site and their own servers that they controlled and paid for, and they had a functioning VOD system. now they don't have those things.
and even if they had everything they had in 2011, esports has changed. there's a lot more SC2 content, and there are other games. and every official sanctioned event is competing with high profile streamers for every game on top of that. why am I going to sit and watch shit quality GSL, or pay 15 bucks a month for ok quality GSL, when I can click a button and watch something else with all the amenities for free?
If someone come and ask where can he watch the best starcraft, and you telel him it's this shitty blurry stream unless he pays 15 bucks, when all the others games provide free HD, they're not going to hesitate long what to watch and support ...
On January 11 2015 15:44 anessie wrote: 3 seasons = 21 euro x 3 = 63 euro (72$) this year for source quality, last year it was 61 euro for the entire year (79.99$)
The difference is actually in the dollar/euro conversion, so it did not become more expensive.
For >45 hours of decent Starcraft 2 it's <50 eurocent an hour, I'm okay with that.
I actually got no issue with twitch vods, it's lagfree, amazing quality, functional and spoiler free.
Maybe some of you should be happy those Koreans are still broadcasting an English stream.
Welcome to 2015, welcome to reality sc2.
This is beside the point...it was the manner in which it was done (no infocast or warning)...and the fact that Korean people get Free HD.
On January 11 2015 15:44 anessie wrote: 3 seasons = 21 euro x 3 = 63 euro (72$) this year for source quality, last year it was 61 euro for the entire year (79.99$)
The difference is actually in the dollar/euro conversion, so it did not become more expensive.
For >45 hours of decent Starcraft 2 it's <50 eurocent an hour, I'm okay with that.
I actually got no issue with twitch vods, it's lagfree, amazing quality, functional and spoiler free.
Maybe some of you should be happy those Koreans are still broadcasting an English stream.
Welcome to 2015, welcome to reality sc2.
They are really causing grief! There has got to be a better way to do this. There is no justification in the fact that GSL has been limiting stream quality to subscribers for an extended period of time. They are going overboard by lowering the resolution even further(not the mention the bitrate ffs). Someday I might be able to afford to sub, but until then... Every time I watch the GSL, I am struggling to make up what is happening..
I don't know gom exp well, but if it was a dedicated corporation with a viewer friendly attitude, it would only do this if it's having a major problem.
Plus, we don't get to judge Gom exp's actions on whether or not this will be the most profitable approach. Assuming Gom has a team of decent economists on marketing, it knows better than us on what's the best method. It sucks but it all comes down to that Gom has to make profit and they see this as the best approach.
On January 11 2015 16:26 Gamegene wrote: i just want to know if they treat their domestic audience the same way.
and if they do this for all games broadcasted domestically and internationally on top of SC2.
wtf mr chae?
Don't worry.. You can always come and watch for free! Don't forget to bring a fucking sign, maybe we will be able to make out what it says if you write big enough.. "MEDIUM OR RIOT!"
On January 11 2015 15:44 anessie wrote: Maybe some of you should be happy those Koreans are still broadcasting an English stream. Welcome to 2015, welcome to reality sc2.
Good thing in 2015 we have more than only GSL in korea, so for me its goodbye GSL.
Will check results on liquipedia but not gonna bother watching it.
if blizzard wants to throw the few spectators that still watch sc2 to other games like cs:go, dota or lol, then blizzard must stay silent and let gom scrap the bottom of the barrel.
We have to stop tell dangerous half-knowlegde publicly. There were a lot of it in the last 2 weeks. "Demuslim lost to a cheater" while he won against him (example).
This thread here too. That picture and source from OP says nothing about the requirements for WCS Unified and GSL/SSL. WCS Unified & GSL & SSL are neither tier1 nor tier2 nor tier3 tournaments.
Ofc I am not happy that I cant watch in medium at GSL games, but if there is no requirements from Blizzard about it, we can do nothing.
On January 11 2015 20:27 Penev wrote: For people who want to watch the YT stream with synced English commentary use the following (free) programs: - Hola (VPN) - Livestreamer - VLC
haha^^ I was doing this....however i could not for the life of me get the audio to sync... there is a way~~ this guy doesnt explain it properly...RIGHT???? or am I nonce?
On January 11 2015 20:42 Dingodile wrote: We have to stop tell dangerous half-knowlegde publicly. There were a lot of it in the last 2 weeks. "Demuslim lost to a cheater" while he won against him (example).
This thread here too. That picture and source from OP says nothing about the requirements for WCS Unified and GSL/SSL. WCS Unified & GSL & SSL are neither tier1 nor tier2 nor tier3 tournaments.
Ofc I am not happy that I cant watch in medium at GSL games, but if there is no requirements from Blizzard about it, we can do nothing.
I am not convinced... that we can do nothing... The livestreamer + VLC + Hola + Syncing Tech = fixed issue...(not hard I just havnt got the syncing worked out yet)
But it is still a massively silly move on their behalf.
BUT BUT : you are right Blizz will not step in,,,they have no reason to do so...
# Would love to get some opinions from the TEAM LIQUID STAFF...if it comes in they think they should close this thread...then its ended...
It's safe to say that GSL won't gain any new viewers with this and they will lose viewers that typically watch Twitch stuff but not necessarily SC2 stuff. Not sure if Twitch wants to put GSL onto their frontpage as they might think that the blurry stream will reflect badly on their service.
Teamless GSL players like MC will sign with a KeSPA team or ST sooner or later, or retire. International sponsors will not go into any of this.
Sure, people are willing to subscribe this season and maybe the next season. But once the masses vanish and GSL is no longer the talk of the town, they will perceive the product for which they pay for worse and worse. See: MLG Arena. It's not as if Proleague isn't already many people's favorite Korean tournament already and can claim superiority in high-level skill. So the "I gladly pay for high-level skill and ESPORTS blabla" crowd won't be united to stand for GSL this time.
Not sure why GOM is doing this. Do they have other contracts besides GSL still? Maybe they are gambling on Blizzard to intervene once again and give them more money to improve stream quality. Otherwise, GSL is navigating into a dead-end. Proleague/KeSPA stuff will gain more power and there is a chance that GSL will be sidelined in the long run, for example if KeSPA pulls out players again from the GSL.
On January 11 2015 20:27 Penev wrote: For people who want to watch the YT stream with synced English commentary use the following (free) programs: - Hola (VPN) - Livestreamer - VLC
haha^^ I was doing this....however i could not for the life of me get the audio to sync... there is a way~~ this guy doesnt explain it properly...RIGHT???? or am I nonce?
He's overcomplicating things a bit, for instance, the bat file only needs to look like this:
livestreamer twitch.tv/gsl low
Vlc will play the stream already delayed and you can further adjust the audio in tools/ track synchronization/ audio track synchronization.
BUT BUT : you are right Blizz will not step in,,,they have no reason to do so...
Well, they are funding the price pool and this isn't exactly great publicity/ exposure for Blizz so who knows; Maybe they have something to say about this. They don't really need Gom anymore either with SpotTV coming in.
On January 11 2015 22:40 SixStrings wrote: I'm surprised so many people are bothered by this. I didn't even notice it, 480p is perfectly fine for me.
Have you considered getting your eyes tested? Make sure to start by asking them if you actually have eyes.
I'm not saying I couldn't tell 1080p from 480p, but as long as I can comfortably read supply numbers, I don't really care. Might have something to do with my 13" monitor, which is usually half a meter away from my face.
That's not to say I don't think you guys have fair concerns if you are in fact bothered by it. Especially if you're used to watching (or in your case creating) videos in 1080p.
On January 11 2015 22:40 SixStrings wrote: I'm surprised so many people are bothered by this. I didn't even notice it, 480p is perfectly fine for me.
Have you considered getting your eyes tested? Make sure to start by asking them if you actually have eyes.
I'm not saying I couldn't tell 1080p from 480p, but as long as I can comfortably read supply numbers, I don't really care. Might have something to do with my 13" monitor, which is usually half a meter away from my face.
That's not to say I don't think you guys have fair concerns if you are in fact bothered by it. Especially if you're used to watching (or in your case creating) videos in 1080p.
You shouldt really test your eyes. It is 360p and looks like 240p youtube quality.
monitorsize and generation are the key. A game with terrible graphic (like Diablo 2), it looks much better with a 10 yrs old monitor. If you watch it with a blue ray movie, you dont see the difference between HD and SD, but on an new monitor.
On January 11 2015 20:27 Penev wrote: For people who want to watch the YT stream with synced English commentary use the following (free) programs: - Hola (VPN) - Livestreamer - VLC
haha^^ I was doing this....however i could not for the life of me get the audio to sync... there is a way~~ this guy doesnt explain it properly...RIGHT???? or am I nonce?
He's overcomplicating things a bit, for instance, the bat file only needs to look like this:
livestreamer twitch.tv/gsl low
Vlc will play the stream already delayed and you can further adjust the audio in tools/ track synchronization/ audio track synchronization.
BUT BUT : you are right Blizz will not step in,,,they have no reason to do so...
Well, they are funding the price pool and this isn't exactly great publicity/ exposure for Blizz so who knows; Maybe they have something to say about this. They don't really need Gom anymore either with SpotTV coming in.
People in the community who insist on defending this make me want to quit playing/watching sc2 completely. Enjoy your favorite game's shrinking fanbase. I still think tasteless and artosis have to go before any of this can be fixed. They aren't doing anything for the game at this point.
On January 12 2015 00:40 johnbongham wrote: People in the community who insist on defending this make me want to quit playing/watching sc2 completely. Enjoy your favorite game's shrinking fanbase. I still think tasteless and artosis have to go before any of this can be fixed. They aren't doing anything for the game at this point.
I have a feeling their salaries are one of the largest expenses that is forcing GOMTV to wish to aggressively monetize their english stream audience.
On January 12 2015 00:40 johnbongham wrote: People in the community who insist on defending this make me want to quit playing/watching sc2 completely. Enjoy your favorite game's shrinking fanbase. I still think tasteless and artosis have to go before any of this can be fixed. They aren't doing anything for the game at this point.
I have a feeling their salaries are one of the largest expenses that is forcing GOMTV to wish to aggressively monetize their english stream audience.
Well they better be.
Tastosis are a large part of the reason we're even still talking about this game. They kept it interesting when the game was shit, they brought the game to tens of thousands of Western viewers and they've been loyal to the game for five years.
Now that the game is at its dying breath, you can bet that they deserved being paid every penny GOM can spare.
I'm really annoyed by people shitting all over Tasteless' face, to be honest. Just because he doesn't play Starcraft, doesn't mean he isn't a brilliant broadcaster and half of the best casting duo we have had in five years of SC2.
On January 12 2015 00:40 johnbongham wrote: People in the community who insist on defending this make me want to quit playing/watching sc2 completely. Enjoy your favorite game's shrinking fanbase. I still think tasteless and artosis have to go before any of this can be fixed. They aren't doing anything for the game at this point.
I have a feeling their salaries are one of the largest expenses that is forcing GOMTV to wish to aggressively monetize their english stream audience.
Well they better be.
Tastosis are a large part of the reason we're even still talking about this game. They kept it interesting when the game was shit, they brought the game to tens of thousands of Western viewers and they've been loyal to the game for five years.
Now that the game is at its dying breath, you can bet that they deserved being paid every penny GOM can spare.
I'm really annoyed by people shitting all over Tasteless' face, to be honest. Just because he doesn't play Starcraft, doesn't mean he isn't a brilliant broadcaster and half of the best casting duo we have had in five years of SC2.
I agree. Tasteless is easily the most veteran and best caster in the scene. The fact that he sticks to casting Starcraft instead of moving to the more popular games such as League of Legends or Dota2 shows that he actually still cares about the game, I think. Back in the day he casted Brood War for a lot less viewers than he is getting now.
How many sports commentators actively practice the sports they are casting? Relatively few, as far as I know.
On January 12 2015 00:40 johnbongham wrote: People in the community who insist on defending this make me want to quit playing/watching sc2 completely. Enjoy your favorite game's shrinking fanbase. I still think tasteless and artosis have to go before any of this can be fixed. They aren't doing anything for the game at this point.
I have a feeling their salaries are one of the largest expenses that is forcing GOMTV to wish to aggressively monetize their english stream audience.
Well they better be.
Tastosis are a large part of the reason we're even still talking about this game. They kept it interesting when the game was shit, they brought the game to tens of thousands of Western viewers and they've been loyal to the game for five years.
Now that the game is at its dying breath, you can bet that they deserved being paid every penny GOM can spare.
I'm really annoyed by people shitting all over Tasteless' face, to be honest. Just because he doesn't play Starcraft, doesn't mean he isn't a brilliant broadcaster and half of the best casting duo we have had in five years of SC2.
I agree. Tasteless is easily the most veteran and best caster in the scene. The fact that he sticks to casting Starcraft instead of moving to the more popular games such as League of Legends or Dota2 shows that he actually still cares about the game, I think. Back in the day he casted Brood War for a lot less viewers than he is getting now.
How many sports commentators actively practice the sports they are casting? Relatively few, as far as I know.
Yeah, most are ex-amateur at most, sometimes ex-players. In esports it's more or less expected that you play the game, so it's a bit different.
On January 12 2015 00:40 johnbongham wrote: People in the community who insist on defending this make me want to quit playing/watching sc2 completely. Enjoy your favorite game's shrinking fanbase. I still think tasteless and artosis have to go before any of this can be fixed. They aren't doing anything for the game at this point.
I have a feeling their salaries are one of the largest expenses that is forcing GOMTV to wish to aggressively monetize their english stream audience.
Well they better be.
Tastosis are a large part of the reason we're even still talking about this game. They kept it interesting when the game was shit, they brought the game to tens of thousands of Western viewers and they've been loyal to the game for five years.
Now that the game is at its dying breath, you can bet that they deserved being paid every penny GOM can spare.
I'm really annoyed by people shitting all over Tasteless' face, to be honest. Just because he doesn't play Starcraft, doesn't mean he isn't a brilliant broadcaster and half of the best casting duo we have had in five years of SC2.
We're going to pay you x amount of salary until our company dies. over We're going have to change some things because our budget is not working atm. ?
On January 12 2015 00:40 johnbongham wrote: People in the community who insist on defending this make me want to quit playing/watching sc2 completely. Enjoy your favorite game's shrinking fanbase. I still think tasteless and artosis have to go before any of this can be fixed. They aren't doing anything for the game at this point.
I have a feeling their salaries are one of the largest expenses that is forcing GOMTV to wish to aggressively monetize their english stream audience.
Well they better be.
Tastosis are a large part of the reason we're even still talking about this game. They kept it interesting when the game was shit, they brought the game to tens of thousands of Western viewers and they've been loyal to the game for five years.
Now that the game is at its dying breath, you can bet that they deserved being paid every penny GOM can spare.
I'm really annoyed by people shitting all over Tasteless' face, to be honest. Just because he doesn't play Starcraft, doesn't mean he isn't a brilliant broadcaster and half of the best casting duo we have had in five years of SC2.
the following is assuming, hypothetically, that tastosis' labor costs are significantly high relative to the english GOMTV budget as the other poster said:
the show has to go on at the end of the day. whether GOM finds newer cheaper casters, cuts labor costs / misc costs, or offer tastosis a lesser salary relative to their tenure the show comes first.
unfortunately, the game is in the shit in terms of viewers and if its a choice between screwing the viewers and displeasing your employees, you have to make the right one.
the most basic element for the starcraft show is players playing and viewers being able to follow the competition. i doubt its tastosis or their contracts fault for this (hypothetical remember?), but regardless theyre fucking with their audience hard here and thats not ok for them or us. theyre making potential customers flee, and hurting their brands reputation. if its tastosis then fuck them let em loose, viewers players have to come first or there won't be a GSL in the future.
note im pretty sure tastosis are valuable to keep around and appeased if theyre able to successfully cast other popular games GOM broadcasts (but personally i think they would suck at it)
Honestly I can count on one hand the amount of times I've either watched/enjoyed tastosis casting in 2014. Most of what I watched was rotterdam/nathanias, basetrade, and even wcs EU despite not liking either apollo or kalearis.
Seriously, there a lot more passionate casters out there and tastosis of today is nothing like what they were in 2012. Tasteless is obviously preparing for life after sc2 casting in Korea and Artosis is more into a card game right now. If their salaries are in any way contributing to this ridiculous paywall then they need to be cut IMO.
BUMP!!! Was really hoping to have some TL staff weigh in their opinions on this...
TB has been super vocal and critical of this move by GSL - the Axiom LotV competition maxed over 20,000 viewers mid game 2 - that is a large audience that heard his opinions...
On January 12 2015 05:09 AxiomBlurr wrote: BUMP!!! Was really hoping to have some TL staff weigh in their opinions on this...
TB has been super vocal and critical of this move by GSL - the Axiom LotV competition maxed over 20,000 viewers mid game 2 - that is a large audience that heard his opinions...
Please TL people share your thoughts...
For me it showed it got close to 31.000 viewers during some of the games, 30.7xx to be a bit more accurate was the highest I saw it get to. Plus the quality was great, GOM should really, really go with a 720p free stream and a 1080p paid stream with more benefits that the paying customers can enjoy, but at the same time something that shouldn't cost GOM too much.
Maybe like in the old days questions for the players/casters/GOM team in general, from the subscribers or something to get everyone excited, I really liked the Baneling show. ^_^
The biggest issue in my opinion is the new viewer aspect. Nobody is going to watch that blurry mess unless they're deeply interested in the game already; nobody is going to pay $14 for a league stream they aren't already familiar with.
I've succesfully introduced friends to SC by simply watching games with them when they are visiting, advertising tournament streams online and making "best games" vod lists. One of them complained about the stream quality in the gomtv.net era and he opted for other content then. Luckily there has been lots of good quality free tournaments to compensate so I could spread the joy that is StarCraft. I doubt any of them would've even considered watching the game if all the streams were like the current GSL travesty.
As this seems to be a no brainer, I have to assume they have given up on the game already. Meaning they don't except any more viewers and are just trying to squeeze money from their current viewer base. And that's just sad...
The stream quality + bitrate is so low, you are forced to estimate army size and composition by the colored pixel-blobs on the screen. It does not appear as 360p (welcome back to 2010)
Low quality is unbearable and incredibly frustrating to watch. It literally causes a headache! :'[
On January 12 2015 05:44 sagi wrote: The biggest issue in my opinion is the new viewer aspect. Nobody is going to watch that blurry mess unless they're deeply interested in the game already; nobody is going to pay $14 for a league stream they aren't already familiar with.
I've succesfully introduced friends to SC by simply watching games with them when they are visiting, advertising tournament streams online and making "best games" vod lists. One of them complained about the stream quality in the gomtv.net era and he opted for other content then...
Well I'm actually happy tasteless isn't like explaining shit about "see guys & girls they control units and have bases and they build armies and they need economy". Cause in more open events casters have done stuff like that, the complete basics is not what I want to hear after watching years of esports games. It's better to discover sc2 by watching youtube content.
Screw that introduction to the game crap, it's the GSL, it's where you come when all that other free stuff isn't enough!
Remember you decide yourself to watch it HQ or LQ or ..not at all.
It's clear gomexp only looks at the Asian/S-Korean market for the new viewer aspect while milking the rest of the world for some cash to keep a dying expansion on air.
I'm sure they will launch some free to watch (beta) Legacy of the Void startup tournament at some point.
Well GOM doesn't have monopoly in Korea anymore either. Now there is Starleague and Proleague.
Proleague has quite a lot of live audience tbh. I am also liking their matches because it is at most 5 games so it isn't massively time consuming either.
So I am either going to watch SPL SSL in good quality or GSL in low? Wonder what I will pick.
On January 12 2015 05:44 sagi wrote: The biggest issue in my opinion is the new viewer aspect. Nobody is going to watch that blurry mess unless they're deeply interested in the game already; nobody is going to pay $14 for a league stream they aren't already familiar with.
I've succesfully introduced friends to SC by simply watching games with them when they are visiting, advertising tournament streams online and making "best games" vod lists. One of them complained about the stream quality in the gomtv.net era and he opted for other content then...
Well I'm actually happy tasteless isn't like explaining shit about "see guys & girls they control units and have bases and they build armies and they need economy". Cause in more open events casters have done stuff like that, the complete basics is not what I want to hear after watching years of esports games. It's better to discover sc2 by watching youtube content.
Screw that introduction to the game crap, it's the GSL, it's where you come when all that other free stuff isn't enough!
Remember you decide yourself to watch it HQ or LQ or ..not at all.
It's clear gomexp only looks at the Asian/S-Korean market for the new viewer aspect while milking the rest of the world for some cash to keep a dying expansion on air.
I'm sure they will launch some free to watch (beta) Legacy of the Void startup tournament at some point.
Well he never said he wasn't happy about exactly that.
All he said was that in his experience players that are not part of the SC2 world already are put off by not wanting to watch low resolution streams. How you interpreted that as saying that he wishes that every cast was actually a beginners guuide to SC2 is beyond me.
On January 12 2015 05:45 alphaboss wrote: The stream quality + bitrate is so low, you are forced to estimate army size and composition by the colored pixel-blobs on the screen. It does not appear as 360p (welcome back to 2010)
Low quality is unbearable and incredibly frustrating to watch. It literally causes a headache! :'[
Thats right!!! and forget reading supply or mins or gas...
Infact I would have preferred it if they made all qualities sub only...
having low free to view only is a massive SMACK IN THE MOUTH!!!! Even b4 when medium was non sub...I used to feel like..."Gom come on,,,really???" What is the point of low fps 360p?? Mobile devices only...
On January 12 2015 05:44 sagi wrote: The biggest issue in my opinion is the new viewer aspect. Nobody is going to watch that blurry mess unless they're deeply interested in the game already; nobody is going to pay $14 for a league stream they aren't already familiar with.
I've succesfully introduced friends to SC by simply watching games with them when they are visiting, advertising tournament streams online and making "best games" vod lists. One of them complained about the stream quality in the gomtv.net era and he opted for other content then...
Well I'm actually happy tasteless isn't like explaining shit about "see guys & girls they control units and have bases and they build armies and they need economy". Cause in more open events casters have done stuff like that, the complete basics is not what I want to hear after watching years of esports games. It's better to discover sc2 by watching youtube content.
Screw that introduction to the game crap, it's the GSL, it's where you come when all that other free stuff isn't enough!
Remember you decide yourself to watch it HQ or LQ or ..not at all.
It's clear gomexp only looks at the Asian/S-Korean market for the new viewer aspect while milking the rest of the world for some cash to keep a dying expansion on air.
I'm sure they will launch some free to watch (beta) Legacy of the Void startup tournament at some point.
Well he never said he wasn't happy about exactly that.
All he said was that in his experience players that are not part of the SC2 world already are put off by not wanting to watch low resolution streams. How you interpreted that as saying that he wishes that every cast was actually a beginners guuide to SC2 is beyond me.
Stop shoving words down the guys throat.
Thank you for saving me the effort to say exactly this. But just in case this dude still doesn't get it: I have no idea where you got the idea I somehow ment that people new to the game need patronizing casting. That has never been the problem. If there has been a need for special introduction I've covered it myself (which is completely fine).
Watch it on your iphone or mini android device (like sony/galaxy)! That way, even if it was med or high quality, it wouldnt make a difference!!.... :-/
On January 12 2015 11:27 worosei wrote: i've worked out the trick!
Watch it on your iphone or mini android device (like sony/galaxy)! That way, even if it was med or high quality, it wouldnt make a difference!!.... :-/
Will prepare my old nokia 3310 for tomorrow.
Just as general thought - Gom may not be so bad, they may be just hungry for more money before LotV comes out. After that many people will get to SC2 over again... right now they may just want to milk the hardcore audience.
On January 12 2015 17:53 BlueStar wrote: Just as general thought - Gom may not be so bad, they may be just hungry for more money before LotV comes out. After that many people will get to SC2 over again... right now they may just want to milk the hardcore audience.
Pathetic situation.
I am sure they said 4 yrs ago that they need foreigner money to pay tastosis monthly salaries (this is the only one reason). Without it -> no tastosis (maybe even no foreigner stream). Korean stream/scene has no influence about it, koreanHD is free as usual.
On January 10 2015 03:13 Seeker wrote: Regarding GOM eXP's terrible VOD system:
Last October, I contacted GOM and explained to them that the majority of GOM eXP related feedback pertained to the terrible VOD system that exists right now. Here is the response that I received:
We are currently aware of the displeasure from our viewers regarding the bad VOD system. Unfortunately, due to our service coalition with twitch, what we have currently is the best we can do with VODs.
Back when we were GOMTV.net, we had our own webpage dedicated to VODs and we even had our own player. But as of right now, we have to use the twitch and YouTube systems so we cannot freely change our services as we'd like to. We are looking into securing a better and improved VOD viewing process for 2015. However, there is no announcement date for this yet.
On January 10 2015 03:57 kc2siq wrote: I've spent $200+ on gomtv.net but have yet to spend a single penny on gomexp. It's a shame, I really loved GOMTV.net and I still love the GSL because of all the memories. I used to pay for the quality when I was a college student and could stay up early in the morning.
But with a full-time job now, the vods are far more important to me and the shitty vod service just doesn't warrant it me paying.
At least with proleague, there're free videos up on esportstv.
On January 10 2015 08:51 AzBozz wrote: ill never forget the vods on the gom page. it was just perfect. i never understood why they changed it
On January 10 2015 16:29 tenklavir wrote: Has nothing to do with money for me. I bought the yearly ticket for GOMTV every year, but the Twitch/Youtube VOD structure is unusable compared to GOMTV.net and especially their mobile site which I used to love watching on my tablet. Since the move, I have not subscribed...just hoping they go back some day.
All these posts and more. I subbed on gomtv.net for years and the money isn't/wasn't an issue. Then they moved over to twitch and I subscribed for 1-2 seasons max before giving up in frustration at the atrocious VOD system. I don't really get how I'm expected to pay a similar amount as before for an infinitely worse product. And worse, they seem to understand it's a worse product, and yet...
I'd love to subscribe to GSL but I'm just not going to pay a similar amount of money for a significantly worse service than I got 3 years ago.
I'm sure I'm part of a fairly sizeable group of people who would happily pay the subscription if only it were worth paying for, like in the past.
Not much by way of optimism going on here (regarding growth of SC2), considering the fact that LotV hasn't even been released yet. Anybody who's stoically convinced that SC2 won't grow anymore and GOM needs to rape eyeballs to gouge money out of the fan-base is wrong, IMO.
I don't think Broodwar's player-base reached its peak during it's development, but later. Its status as an eSport didn't even exist until years after it was finished.
SC2's player-base will see a large rejuvenation when LotV comes out. People who haven't played in ages will be playing again, and a small percentage will be wanting to watch some eSports. There still exists some potential growth to this very niche market - growth which should be facilitated, not hindered.
I still stand by what I said. If GOM is struggling, they are struggling because they don't treat all their customers the same. If we're self-entitled for wanting GOM to adhere to the WCS guidelines for what a free stream should be then Korean fans must be many times more self-entitled because they get everything for free (including pizza if they come to the studio). GOM is not managed very well and their business strategy is both flawed and unethical.
On January 12 2015 21:37 dUTtrOACh wrote: Not much by way of optimism going on here (regarding growth of SC2), considering the fact that LotV hasn't even been released yet. Anybody who's stoically convinced that SC2 won't grow anymore and GOM needs to rape eyeballs to gouge money out of the fan-base is wrong, IMO.
I don't think Broodwar's player-base reached its peak during it's development, but later. Its status as an eSport didn't even exist until years after it was finished.
SC2's player-base will see a large rejuvenation when LotV comes out. People who haven't played in ages will be playing again, and a small percentage will be wanting to watch some eSports. There still exists some potential growth to this very niche market - growth which should be facilitated, not hindered.
I still stand by what I said. If GOM is struggling, they are struggling because they don't treat all their customers the same. If we're self-entitled for wanting GOM to adhere to the WCS guidelines for what a free stream should be then Korean fans must be many times more self-entitled because they get everything for free (including pizza if they come to the studio). GOM is not managed very well and their business strategy is both flawed and unethical.
Well said. How unethical could you be to charge people depending on what region they live in. Gom should be called Greedxp. Viewers certainly should not be forced into paying for MEDIUM quality streams, to fund Tastosis (or whatever sad excuse they have). Something needs to change.
I actually never understood the believe that quality content (maybe gsl doesn't have enough quality for some?) has to be free. Sure, it might be better for the numbers, but if the price is rather low i don't see why you can't just pay for it if you enjoy the content...
On January 13 2015 00:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I actually never understood the believe that quality content (maybe gsl doesn't have enough quality for some?) has to be free. Sure, it might be better for the numbers, but if the price is rather low i don't see why you can't just pay for it if you enjoy the content...
Because we have years and years of esport experiences to prove otherwise mostly...
On January 13 2015 00:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I actually never understood the believe that quality content (maybe gsl doesn't have enough quality for some?) has to be free. Sure, it might be better for the numbers, but if the price is rather low i don't see why you can't just pay for it if you enjoy the content...
Because we have years and years of esport experiences to prove otherwise mostly...
If people don't wanna pay for watching esports i doubt it will get anywhere, simple as that tbh.
On January 13 2015 00:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I actually never understood the believe that quality content (maybe gsl doesn't have enough quality for some?) has to be free. Sure, it might be better for the numbers, but if the price is rather low i don't see why you can't just pay for it if you enjoy the content...
Because we have years and years of esport experiences to prove otherwise mostly...
If people don't wanna pay for watching esports i doubt it will get anywhere, simple as that tbh.
It's about a company stating one thing and another company, part working in unison with main company, not abiding by that. That's false advertisement and favoritism; it will look poorly to outside parties, such as newcomers, returners, and/or sponsors.
On January 13 2015 00:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I actually never understood the believe that quality content (maybe gsl doesn't have enough quality for some?) has to be free. Sure, it might be better for the numbers, but if the price is rather low i don't see why you can't just pay for it if you enjoy the content...
Because we have years and years of esport experiences to prove otherwise mostly...
If people don't wanna pay for watching esports i doubt it will get anywhere, simple as that tbh.
TBH you don't know what you are talking about. The last time a popular esport went behind a giant paywall that I can remember because it was a 'quality' production was when the Championship Gaming Series consolidated all the best CS players/teams into a single televised tournament that you could only watch if your parents subscribed to Direct TV. This was nearly a decade ago. Suffice to say, that was when I and many others stopped following cs completely, and when that league folded, pretty much the entire North American pro playerbase folded with it. Look it up, do some research, this is NOT how you grow your viewer base or grow the game. Don't be surprised if tastosis get canned or the free stream disappears completely. Don't be surprised of GOM disappears completely.
On January 13 2015 00:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I actually never understood the believe that quality content (maybe gsl doesn't have enough quality for some?) has to be free. Sure, it might be better for the numbers, but if the price is rather low i don't see why you can't just pay for it if you enjoy the content...
Because we have years and years of esport experiences to prove otherwise mostly...
If people don't wanna pay for watching esports i doubt it will get anywhere, simple as that tbh.
TBH you don't know what you are talking about. The last time a popular esport went behind a giant paywall that I can remember because it was a 'quality' production was when the Championship Gaming Series consolidated all the best CS players/teams into a single televised tournament that you could only watch if your parents subscribed to Direct TV. This was nearly a decade ago. Suffice to say, that was when I and many others stopped following cs completely, and when that league folded, pretty much the entire North American pro playerbase folded with it. Look it up, do some research, this is NOT how you grow your viewer base or grow the game. Don't be surprised if tastosis get canned or the free stream disappears completely. Don't be surprised of GOM disappears completely.
I say if people in esports are not ok with paying for any content i am not sure how it ever will be "legit". If you wanna consume any medium you should pay for it, it IS as easy as that. I didn't reference any historical events here, it is more about the general idea. Most people are completely ok with paying for books/movies/whatever (obviously there are others as well, but duh), i don't see any difference here. Gomtv produces content, if you wanna watch it you should pay for it. Obviously this incident is weird/bad cause the rules say gomtv needs to have one for free (which makes sense if you wanna have the highest viewer numbers obviously).
This is really a shame. Paywalling is inexcusable and incredibly damaging for the scene and gom itself. Maybe they will reap some short term profits, but it's very short sighted. I always supported gom, but now, they're going to need to basically go the proleague way with free 1080p vods and stream to bring back my confidence.
How is interest in their tournament ever going to grow if people tune in to a crappy 240p stream with a lower bitrate than that mp3 file you extracted from a youtube video?
Why can proleague offer 1080p vod and stream for free, but not gom? And why do they think that in an oversaturated population of quality starcraft tournaments, being the only one to paywall is going to do any good?
On this whole "you need to pay because they produce content" story. No. Simply no. Complete bullshit. Money is just an abstraction of energy. There are other ways to support, like watching and thus raising the viewer number.
Wolf said during last week's proleague broadcast that the best way to support proleague is not to subscribe or pay, but by watching and telling your friends, raising the viewer numbers.
How is gom ever going to get more viewers if you have to go through time wasting money costing payment activities? If you found a new website or show you had never heard of, and wanted to get a general impression, the first thing you do once you see you have to pay to get anything, is forget about it. At least, 99% of the time for 99% of the people.
On January 13 2015 00:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I actually never understood the believe that quality content (maybe gsl doesn't have enough quality for some?) has to be free. Sure, it might be better for the numbers, but if the price is rather low i don't see why you can't just pay for it if you enjoy the content...
Because we have years and years of esport experiences to prove otherwise mostly...
If people don't wanna pay for watching esports i doubt it will get anywhere, simple as that tbh.
TBH you don't know what you are talking about. The last time a popular esport went behind a giant paywall that I can remember because it was a 'quality' production was when the Championship Gaming Series consolidated all the best CS players/teams into a single televised tournament that you could only watch if your parents subscribed to Direct TV. This was nearly a decade ago. Suffice to say, that was when I and many others stopped following cs completely, and when that league folded, pretty much the entire North American pro playerbase folded with it. Look it up, do some research, this is NOT how you grow your viewer base or grow the game. Don't be surprised if tastosis get canned or the free stream disappears completely. Don't be surprised of GOM disappears completely.
I didn't reference any historical events here, it is more about the general idea.
Yeah, and your general idea isn't backed up with any evidence, historical or otherwise, as far as esports is concerned while my 'general idea' is. You seem to have a sever lack of understanding about how the economy of esports works. Getting a couple thousand subscriptions for a premium pass is nothing in terms of revenue compared to getting good corporate sponsorship and a large viewer base that you can then turn around and sell to advertisers. Look at how many people are making a living off of their youtube channels these days yet they aren't 'selling' their content to the viewers, they are selling the viewers to their sponsors. I was a gom subscriber back in the entire year of 2012 when there was LOADS of games both code S and A and an excellent vod system. It was cheaper then, and better. See, the problem is that gom isn't even offering anything good for the subscription, they are just taking away from people what should be free. Its a bogus tactic and they deserve all the criticism they receive. I and others will refuse to watch gsl this year.
On January 13 2015 00:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I actually never understood the believe that quality content (maybe gsl doesn't have enough quality for some?) has to be free. Sure, it might be better for the numbers, but if the price is rather low i don't see why you can't just pay for it if you enjoy the content...
Because we have years and years of esport experiences to prove otherwise mostly...
If people don't wanna pay for watching esports i doubt it will get anywhere, simple as that tbh.
TBH you don't know what you are talking about. The last time a popular esport went behind a giant paywall that I can remember because it was a 'quality' production was when the Championship Gaming Series consolidated all the best CS players/teams into a single televised tournament that you could only watch if your parents subscribed to Direct TV. This was nearly a decade ago. Suffice to say, that was when I and many others stopped following cs completely, and when that league folded, pretty much the entire North American pro playerbase folded with it. Look it up, do some research, this is NOT how you grow your viewer base or grow the game. Don't be surprised if tastosis get canned or the free stream disappears completely. Don't be surprised of GOM disappears completely.
I didn't reference any historical events here, it is more about the general idea.
Yeah, and your general idea isn't backed up with any evidence, historical or otherwise, as far as esports is concerned while my 'general idea' is. You seem to have a sever lack of understanding about how the economy of esports works. Getting a couple thousand subscriptions for a premium pass is nothing in terms of revenue compared to getting good corporate sponsorship and a large viewer base that you can then turn around and sell to advertisers. Look at how many people are making a living off of their youtube channels these days yet they aren't 'selling' their content to the viewers, they are selling the viewers to their sponsors. I was a gom subscriber back in the entire year of 2012 when there was LOADS of games both code S and A and an excellent vod system. It was cheaper then, and better. See, the problem is that gom isn't even offering anything good for the subscription, they are just taking away from people what should be free. Its a bogus tactic and they deserve all the criticism they receive. I and others will refuse to watch gsl this year.
While I'm on your side regarding the stream quality of GSL, he has a valid point, but you just don't seem to get it. He refers to the 'old-school' trading model, where people exchange money in order to receive some kind of product/service.
Like going into a store and telling the owner you want that game over there and he charges you amount X for it, I know, it's kinda dated nowadays, but please don't be so condescending when trying to back up your point of view in the future.
We are just people from the past not used to digital marketing, yet.
On January 13 2015 00:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I actually never understood the believe that quality content (maybe gsl doesn't have enough quality for some?) has to be free. Sure, it might be better for the numbers, but if the price is rather low i don't see why you can't just pay for it if you enjoy the content...
Well, it USED to be top quality content, with access to an amazing VOD system. But now? Other organizations have just as good, if not better produced content, and their VOD system is almost non-existent. They also did this with no heads up, and essentially pulled the rug out from under a lot of people, which is just not very smart no matter what side of this debate you're on.
This is the problem most reasonable people are having. We're being asked to continue to pay a premium price for content that is no longer premium. That's the bottom line for me. I would happily pay (and have done so in the past) money for eSports, but I'm not going to just throw money at random events/tournaments "for eSports". That's a pretty terrible way to go about growing your scene, as it doesn't lead to anything substantial or lasting. It's why I have such an issue with kickstarters popping up everywhere for various eSports related things as well.
i am always amazed by how much "esports" fans feel entitled to free stuff. i dont support this gom decision by any means, nor will it force my hand to subscribe, and no i am not trying to make apologies for an obvious dick move (they could've at least left us with medium), however, i just cant understand ppl who protest because they have to pay for a premium quality service...
i bet most of us spend more on drinking in a month than we do on esports in a year, yet only one of those activities we enjoy on daily basis... i guess its even worse for other games, sc2 supposedly has more senior following than games like dota/lol... still...
On January 13 2015 04:09 snailz wrote: i am always amazed by how much "esports" fans feel entitled to free stuff. i dont support this gom decision by any means, nor will it force my hand to subscribe, and no i am not trying to make apologies for an obvious dick move (they could've at least left us with medium), however, i just cant understand ppl who protest because they have to pay for a premium quality service...
i bet most of us spend more on drinking in a month than we do on esports in a year, yet only one of those activities we enjoy on daily basis... i guess its even worse for other games, sc2 supposedly has more senior following than games like dota/lol... still...
There are a hundred ways to monetize esports and restricting something as simple as viewership is possibly the worst way to go about it. But hey, its only us entitled and spoiled "esports" fans complaining so who cares?
Also, you are very funny. 'Premium quality service' - do you mean a watchable stream? Point me in the direction of another major esport title or organization with such a policy. Please, it shouldn't take long I imagine considering there are plenty of 'premium quality services' out there in esports.
On January 13 2015 04:09 snailz wrote: i am always amazed by how much "esports" fans feel entitled to free stuff. i dont support this gom decision by any means, nor will it force my hand to subscribe, and no i am not trying to make apologies for an obvious dick move (they could've at least left us with medium), however, i just cant understand ppl who protest because they have to pay for a premium quality service...
i bet most of us spend more on drinking in a month than we do on esports in a year, yet only one of those activities we enjoy on daily basis... i guess its even worse for other games, sc2 supposedly has more senior following than games like dota/lol... still...
Why do some people keep saying entitled? I was one of the people against pirate bay in the one thread (pay for Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, Twitch, and Crunchyroll; I only obtain items legally). Again, a company says one thing and does another is bad business and actually illegal in many countries as false advertisement, fraud. It's not about entitlement, at least for me. I can afford it, but refuse do to the circumstances.
I doubt this move will make more people subscribe but if it does I am fine with it. I only really want to watch the semis and final anyway so I will watch that in low quality. Proleague is enough for me right now.
guys, relax, my point was very clear, and it wasn't about calling anyone out... all i am saying is that to organize high-exposure event such as GSL (premium tournament by anyone's standards, i hope) while keeping it sustainable long-term, requires healthy finances... just because we see a lot of similar quality products out there right now due to "esports" growth and rise of popularity globally, does not mean we will see it in a year, or so...
people keep forgetting about other "giants" that went under, and act as if GSL being here today is a given. my point was it is not. while i do agree there are other ways to monetize the industry, i would never just expect it. it's a business, if it will be run like one, it will have its own model. i dont have to like that model, and neither should you, and we can express that dissatisfaction by not subscribing. however, it gets weird when you go on the internet and demand xy from people who provided us with free entertainment for years, in my opinion. this demanding tone is also why others use word entitled i guess.
anyways, just look at how some ppl are reacting in this thread and you will hopefully see what i mean... if not, that's all right too
On January 13 2015 04:09 snailz wrote: i am always amazed by how much "esports" fans feel entitled to free stuff. i dont support this gom decision by any means, nor will it force my hand to subscribe, and no i am not trying to make apologies for an obvious dick move (they could've at least left us with medium), however, i just cant understand ppl who protest because they have to pay for a premium quality service...
i bet most of us spend more on drinking in a month than we do on esports in a year, yet only one of those activities we enjoy on daily basis... i guess its even worse for other games, sc2 supposedly has more senior following than games like dota/lol... still...
Why do some people keep saying entitled? I was one of the people against pirate bay in the one thread (pay for Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, Twitch, and Crunchyroll; I only obtain items legally). Again, a company says one thing and does another is bad business and actually illegal in many countries as false advertisement, fraud. It's not about entitlement, at least for me. I can afford it, but refuse do to the circumstances.
Because anyone who can read couldn't possibly say that GOM/Blizzard promised that.
On January 12 2015 21:37 dUTtrOACh wrote: Not much by way of optimism going on here (regarding growth of SC2), considering the fact that LotV hasn't even been released yet. Anybody who's stoically convinced that SC2 won't grow anymore and GOM needs to rape eyeballs to gouge money out of the fan-base is wrong, IMO.
I don't think Broodwar's player-base reached its peak during it's development, but later. Its status as an eSport didn't even exist until years after it was finished.
SC2's player-base will see a large rejuvenation when LotV comes out. People who haven't played in ages will be playing again, and a small percentage will be wanting to watch some eSports. There still exists some potential growth to this very niche market - growth which should be facilitated, not hindered.
I still stand by what I said. If GOM is struggling, they are struggling because they don't treat all their customers the same. If we're self-entitled for wanting GOM to adhere to the WCS guidelines for what a free stream should be then Korean fans must be many times more self-entitled because they get everything for free (including pizza if they come to the studio). GOM is not managed very well and their business strategy is both flawed and unethical.
Unethical just because of price discrimination? I rather call this standard capitalistic profit optimization.
In Korea, Gom has to fight BW popularity and is not in position to charge money for SC2. Outside Korea, they have to offer the highest level of SC2 play. (And they need to produce an English cast.)
On January 13 2015 04:09 snailz wrote: i am always amazed by how much "esports" fans feel entitled to free stuff. i dont support this gom decision by any means, nor will it force my hand to subscribe, and no i am not trying to make apologies for an obvious dick move (they could've at least left us with medium), however, i just cant understand ppl who protest because they have to pay for a premium quality service...
i bet most of us spend more on drinking in a month than we do on esports in a year, yet only one of those activities we enjoy on daily basis... i guess its even worse for other games, sc2 supposedly has more senior following than games like dota/lol... still...
I'm happy to pay, and did for years (despite GOM always having slightly lower quality video than everyone else) because they had a perfect VOD system for those of us who couldn't watch live. Now they are offering lower quality subscriptions so I'm going to stop paying. Doing stuff like not giving the casters an observer PC, and now this just make me even less inclined to bother watching them at all.
On January 13 2015 00:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I actually never understood the believe that quality content (maybe gsl doesn't have enough quality for some?) has to be free. Sure, it might be better for the numbers, but if the price is rather low i don't see why you can't just pay for it if you enjoy the content...
Because we have years and years of esport experiences to prove otherwise mostly...
If people don't wanna pay for watching esports i doubt it will get anywhere, simple as that tbh.
TBH you don't know what you are talking about. The last time a popular esport went behind a giant paywall that I can remember because it was a 'quality' production was when the Championship Gaming Series consolidated all the best CS players/teams into a single televised tournament that you could only watch if your parents subscribed to Direct TV. This was nearly a decade ago. Suffice to say, that was when I and many others stopped following cs completely, and when that league folded, pretty much the entire North American pro playerbase folded with it. Look it up, do some research, this is NOT how you grow your viewer base or grow the game. Don't be surprised if tastosis get canned or the free stream disappears completely. Don't be surprised of GOM disappears completely.
I say if people in esports are not ok with paying for any content i am not sure how it ever will be "legit". If you wanna consume any medium you should pay for it, it IS as easy as that. I didn't reference any historical events here, it is more about the general idea. Most people are completely ok with paying for books/movies/whatever (obviously there are others as well, but duh), i don't see any difference here. Gomtv produces content, if you wanna watch it you should pay for it. Obviously this incident is weird/bad cause the rules say gomtv needs to have one for free (which makes sense if you wanna have the highest viewer numbers obviously).
You just dont understand something. How can a Sport be "legit", when it starts to become completly behind a paywall. And thats this crappy resolution of GomExp atm, you can take it as a real bad radio cast or pixelcrap doing pixelcrap. Most Sports dont sit behind paywalls, I can watch World Cup, ChampionsLeague, Super Bowl, Formula 1, everything for free completly financed with ads. We see a whole new branch devolping on youtube, showing how people live from generating free content for their viewers, and they do not live bad from it. And they got a natural enemy with SpoTV and its products and all other esport products on OGN and Co. All these products are delivered in 720p or 1080p, a good vod system and much more. And Gom? Starts making former free contet behind a paywall. This is the start of the end. In Germany, many Newspapers tried to hied their content behind paywalls, the conclusion was, that they lost so many viewers, that they lost far more add money then they gained by the payments.
I supported Gom Exp last year with Subs the whole year, shared the HOT6 Cup Trailers with friends, told em watch the vods, how cool it is and so on. And now they ask me if this is "the best product of SCII", when they accidently watch a war of pixel, while even Sonics SSL looks better and it has a 16 year old game!
This situation gets worse, when you can watch the korean stream for free (undergoing the region block via proxy) and then see how the stream gets downvoted harsh and has maybe 700 viewers.
I'm gonna miss you GSL... I can't afford to sub, and I can't afford to dedicate myself to cruel 240p Paywalling moneygrabbers known as Greedxp! I am running out of options, and I can't really think of much else to say.
They are the only esports league to make such a move nowadays.. Why don't they learn from proleague/OGN/SSL/ESEA/(BW LEAGUES WITH HD)? :'(
To be honest, the quality of the video doesn't even seem that bad. Reading this thread made me think it was way worse. I haven't watched a game in it yet, though.
Edit: Watching my first game, figuring out the exact supplies is not easy, but you can still easily figure out what is happening on the screen. I guess counting the exact number of zerglings is difficult.
Sponsor must question themselves if this tournament is worth for them, players have the possibility of money and wcs points but the sponsor exposure is lame.
I think GSL are shooting themselves in the foot here. Would be interesting to see if there is a notable difference in viewer numbers related to the quality change for free viewers.
On January 14 2015 19:16 Bojas wrote: I think GSL are shooting themselves in the foot here. Would be interesting to see if there is a notable difference in viewer numbers related to the quality change for free viewers.
As far as I can tell they already have lower numbers today than on average (~15-20k). Don't know if it's just a coincidence or not, though.
On January 14 2015 19:16 Bojas wrote: I think GSL are shooting themselves in the foot here. Would be interesting to see if there is a notable difference in viewer numbers related to the quality change for free viewers.
As far as I can tell they already have lower numbers today than on average (~15-20k). Don't know if it's just a coincidence or not, though.
(The korean stream linked in this thread earlier) doesnt work for me even though I use Hola, any suggestions?
don't use Hola, like ever... unless you like being an exit node
Exit node? I dont get it. Also what would you recommend?
Hola uses its users as its proxies for other people...so its possible that someone on the other side of the planet cld be using Hola and Hola uses your computer to view material that is illegal and or fucked up...and the finger would be pointed at u...
it is unlikely....but possible....
I suggest subbing...GSL have really fucked us over...
This is clearly an attempt to force money out of avarage EU/NA viewer. I have decided to stop watching GSL compleatly until they give at least medium quality back.
(The korean stream linked in this thread earlier) doesnt work for me even though I use Hola, any suggestions?
don't use Hola, like ever... unless you like being an exit node
Exit node? I dont get it. Also what would you recommend?
Hola uses its users as its proxies for other people...so its possible that someone on the other side of the planet cld be using Hola and Hola uses your computer to view material that is illegal and or fucked up...and the finger would be pointed at u...
it is unlikely....but possible....
I suggest subbing...GSL have really fucked us over...
(The korean stream linked in this thread earlier) doesnt work for me even though I use Hola, any suggestions?
don't use Hola, like ever... unless you like being an exit node
Exit node? I dont get it. Also what would you recommend?
Hola uses its users as its proxies for other people...so its possible that someone on the other side of the planet cld be using Hola and Hola uses your computer to view material that is illegal and or fucked up...and the finger would be pointed at u...
it is unlikely....but possible....
I suggest subbing...GSL have really fucked us over...
Alright thank you. What Penev linked is really nice. I really dont want to support their decision to keep the foreign stream behind a paywall but make the kr stream free. No sub from me this year.
(The korean stream linked in this thread earlier) doesnt work for me even though I use Hola, any suggestions?
don't use Hola, like ever... unless you like being an exit node
Exit node? I dont get it. Also what would you recommend?
I suggest subbing...GSL have really fucked us over...
"GSL have really fucked us over" and "You should sub" really don't mesh well, with me. If you think they've really fucked you over, the last thing in the world you should do is give them money.
According to this site, if I get it right, 720p is only required free for "global events", i.e. not for things like GSL and SPOTV but for somehing like IEMs that want to distribute WCS points. Is that correct?
On January 14 2015 21:09 KeksX wrote: According to this site, if I get it right, 720p is only required free for "global events", i.e. not for things like GSL and SPOTV but for somehing like IEMs that want to distribute WCS points. Is that correct?
On January 14 2015 21:09 KeksX wrote: According to this site, if I get it right, 720p is only required free for "global events", i.e. not for things like GSL and SPOTV but for somehing like IEMs that want to distribute WCS points. Is that correct?
Well it's silly from Blizzard's part, but it seems like we can not blame the GSL here. We have no idea what their sponsors require them to do. Maybe it's not their decision at all?
I just wanted to point out that there are, unfortunately, no rules broken by anyone here.
Well maybe no rules are broken by anyone here, which I initially thought. That doesn't make this much better though. I would probaby have subbed GSL but at the moment I refuse, GSL is starting to risk its place as the most prestigious tournament and this move does NOT help them one bit.
On January 14 2015 21:26 Shuffleblade wrote: Well maybe no rules are broken by anyone here, which I initially thought. That doesn't make this much better though. I would probaby have subbed GSL but at the moment I refuse, GSL is starting to risk its place as the most prestigious tournament and this move does NOT help them one bit.
Indeed. Plus the way they went about it was really douchebaggy. But we're circle jerking now; This was already posted several times (not that I mind but yeah).
The only reason why they even have low quality is that Twitch does not have a subscriber-only stream option.
They want to get rid of everyone who doesn't pay up. One time or another GSL will have to realize how archaic their monetization is. There are many, much more expensive events with much bigger prize pools that are being paid entirely out of sponsorships, non-subscriber advertisements and other non-intrusive forms of monetization.
On January 14 2015 21:41 CyberRage wrote: The only reason why they even have low quality is that Twitch does not have a subscriber-only stream option.
They want to get rid of everyone who doesn't pay up. One time or another GSL will have to realize how archaic their monetization is. There are many, much more expensive events with much bigger prize pools that are being paid entirely out of sponsorships, non-subscriber advertisements and other non-intrusive forms of monetization.
The question is: Would these events be profitable if they'd only host SC2?
Unfollowed them on Twitch. I used to watch GSL a lot in their gom player in 226p or whatever crap quality they had there, but in the past 2 years I moved beyond that and cannot watch something looking this bad anymore.
They could at least edit the UI to have bigger supply numbers, this is a complete scumbag way to go about esports.
Wolf is now trying to guilt people into subscribing:
It's such a stupid move by Gom. Any new potential viewers they have will be so turned off by the potato quality that in the long run they for sure lose money by doing this. It's like they know they're going bankrupt and just want as much money as possible while they can
It's such a stupid move by Gom. Any new potential viewers they have will be so turned off by the potato quality that in the long run they for sure lose money by doing this. It's like they know they're going bankrupt and just want as much money as possible while they can
Man you gotta face the reality, there aren't that many new viewers coming into SC2.
Has nothing to do with guilt tripping, but if you truly love Starcraft it should not be a problem for you to pay for the most hardcore SC2 content out there. You also gotta admit that there comes a time for corporations to make a decision: Changing the monetization theme, or downsizing/closing down.
I'm not saying that I think GSL is poor a-f, but as far as I know they've been always loyal to SC2 and even used other games (WoT) to support it. The fact that the community is so hostile to them now is quite shocking to me.
Also people making the point about legitimacy: Traditional sports almost always have exclusive deals for pay-to-view content, especially in soccer. Only the biggest events are free(just like in SC2!) most of the time.
EDIT: Missed half a sentence there in the second paragraph.
It's such a stupid move by Gom. Any new potential viewers they have will be so turned off by the potato quality that in the long run they for sure lose money by doing this. It's like they know they're going bankrupt and just want as much money as possible while they can
Man you gotta face the reality, there aren't that many new viewers coming into SC2.
Has nothing to do with guilt tripping, but if you truly love Starcraft it should not be a problem for you to pay for the most hardcore SC2 content out there. You also gotta admit that there comes a time for corporations to make a decision: Changing the monetization theme, or downsizing/closing down.
I'm not saying that I think GSL is poor a-f, but as far as I know they've been always loyal to SC2 and even used other games (WoT) to support it. The fact that the community is so hostile to them now is quite shocking to me.
Also people making the point about legitimacy: Traditional sports almost always have exclusive deals for pay-to-view content, especially in soccer. Only the biggest events are free(just like in SC2!) most of the time.
EDIT: Missed half a sentence there in the second paragraph.
Would be cool to see numbers on amount of new viewers, I have no idea how the growth is for SC2. Obviously not as much as it used to be, but I bet there are still some.
I'm really thankful for Gom and what they've done for Starcraft, I just think this is a stupid move to make - both for us and themselves. Imo the only way this makes sense is if they believe they wont be able to produce content soon.
As for pay-per-view content, you have to look at your competition. I'm not sure how all the other e-sports does it, but I haven't encountered it since MLG days. No other Starcraft 2 content has a stream quality this low.
I think wolf forgets before he went to korea gom had an awesome vod system which people were willing to pay for, the vod system was the reason so many people subscribed, gom just seems to ignore this fact.
I sometimes watch the games live, but if i was to sub it would mainly be to watch vods, but i cant without seeing spoilers, so I don't want to sub. Wolf and gom need to learn the world doesn't run off love and fairy dust you got to give people what they want if you want their money.
So now it's not worth it to me to take time out of my week to dedicate myself to watching a season of gsl games on low quality, they lose a veiwer and a customer, I will easily find something else to do with my time, if they just found a way to make a vod system work that eliminated spoilers instead of trying to force everyone to sub, they would do better.
just give the customer what they want instead of trying to shovel and guilt a shit vod system down our throats, it just reaks of desperation wouldn't be surprised if they are not doing that well financially.
It's such a stupid move by Gom. Any new potential viewers they have will be so turned off by the potato quality that in the long run they for sure lose money by doing this. It's like they know they're going bankrupt and just want as much money as possible while they can
Man you gotta face the reality, there aren't that many new viewers coming into SC2.
And thats why people are upset that Gom puts an hold to this. If you belief that surviving on the new media is only possible due to constant growth, then this move is a death sentence. So it would be silly to subscribe if you love the game and have that standpoint.
But they aren't stopping growth, they just decide to go with Korea mostly, since that things growing like crazy since people put effort in there. Just like others put effort into the international scene and its growing there too.
I don't believe that things can only exist if they are growing. I believe thats an archaic point of view and quite frankly it's the reason many things fail in the first place. Thats a broader topic for another day however.
The whole "sponsoring/marketing" bubble is a thing of its own.
But if you're interested in that FeyFey, since you are from Germany, look up RocketbeansTV. Especially interesting on the topic of "surviving on new media".
@thunder54:
GOM has put up a statement about that as well- their new website/system is bound to contracts and they unfortunately can not do what they would like to do with VODs. Thats how businness works sadly... If they are bound by contract to (not) do specific things, they have no choice.
@DJHelium: I do agree that it is not beneficial for us or them, but that might just be the result of the alternatives being even worse.
On January 14 2015 23:54 KeksX wrote: I don't believe that things can only exist if they are growing. I believe thats an archaic point of view and quite frankly it's the reason many things fail in the first place. Thats a broader topic for another day however.
The whole "sponsoring/marketing" bubble is a thing of its own.
But if you're interested in that FeyFey, since you are from Germany, look up RocketbeansTV. Especially interesting on the topic of "surviving on new media".
@thunder54:
GOM has put up a statement about that as well- their new website/system is bound to contracts and they unfortunately can not do what they would like to do with VODs. Thats how businness works sadly... If they are bound by contract to (not) do specific things, they have no choice.
@DJHelium: I do agree that it is not beneficial for us or them, but that might just be the result of the alternatives being even worse.
then they shouldn't be surprised when people refuse to pay for a product that is infinitely worse than before, should they?
On January 14 2015 23:54 KeksX wrote: I don't believe that things can only exist if they are growing. I believe thats an archaic point of view and quite frankly it's the reason many things fail in the first place. Thats a broader topic for another day however.
The whole "sponsoring/marketing" bubble is a thing of its own.
But if you're interested in that FeyFey, since you are from Germany, look up RocketbeansTV. Especially interesting on the topic of "surviving on new media".
@thunder54:
GOM has put up a statement about that as well- their new website/system is bound to contracts and they unfortunately can not do what they would like to do with VODs. Thats how businness works sadly... If they are bound by contract to (not) do specific things, they have no choice.
@DJHelium: I do agree that it is not beneficial for us or them, but that might just be the result of the alternatives being even worse.
then they shouldn't be surprised when people refuse to pay for a product that is infinitely worse than before, should they?
On January 14 2015 23:54 KeksX wrote: I don't believe that things can only exist if they are growing. I believe thats an archaic point of view and quite frankly it's the reason many things fail in the first place. Thats a broader topic for another day however.
The whole "sponsoring/marketing" bubble is a thing of its own.
But if you're interested in that FeyFey, since you are from Germany, look up RocketbeansTV. Especially interesting on the topic of "surviving on new media".
@thunder54:
GOM has put up a statement about that as well- their new website/system is bound to contracts and they unfortunately can not do what they would like to do with VODs. Thats how businness works sadly... If they are bound by contract to (not) do specific things, they have no choice.
@DJHelium: I do agree that it is not beneficial for us or them, but that might just be the result of the alternatives being even worse.
then they shouldn't be surprised when people refuse to pay for a product that is infinitely worse than before, should they?
I mean... I don't see them complaining, so...
The thing is...
On January 14 2015 23:05 KeksX wrote: Has nothing to do with guilt tripping, but if you truly love Starcraft it should not be a problem for you to pay for the most hardcore SC2 content out there. You also gotta admit that there comes a time for corporations to make a decision: Changing the monetization theme, or downsizing/closing down.
I'd love to subscribe to GSL, but I just can't justify it given the product I used to have.
It's just the sense of basic value for money.
If a chocolate bar that I loved halved in size but the cost stayed the same, I'd just stop buying it.
On January 14 2015 23:54 KeksX wrote: I don't believe that things can only exist if they are growing. I believe thats an archaic point of view and quite frankly it's the reason many things fail in the first place. Thats a broader topic for another day however.
The whole "sponsoring/marketing" bubble is a thing of its own.
But if you're interested in that FeyFey, since you are from Germany, look up RocketbeansTV. Especially interesting on the topic of "surviving on new media".
@thunder54:
GOM has put up a statement about that as well- their new website/system is bound to contracts and they unfortunately can not do what they would like to do with VODs. Thats how businness works sadly... If they are bound by contract to (not) do specific things, they have no choice.
@DJHelium: I do agree that it is not beneficial for us or them, but that might just be the result of the alternatives being even worse.
then they shouldn't be surprised when people refuse to pay for a product that is infinitely worse than before, should they?
On January 14 2015 23:05 KeksX wrote: Has nothing to do with guilt tripping, but if you truly love Starcraft it should not be a problem for you to pay for the most hardcore SC2 content out there. You also gotta admit that there comes a time for corporations to make a decision: Changing the monetization theme, or downsizing/closing down.
I'd love to subscribe to GSL, but I just can't justify it given the product I used to have.
It's just the sense of basic value for money.
If a chocolate bar that I loved halved in size but the cost stayed the same, I'd just stop buying it.
Probably alread happened somewhat, they just didn't tell you. Common practice. Look at the weight of the stuff(especially sweets) you buy.
Anyway, I for one have no problem paying 15$ for a season. Hell I paid third of that for HSC and that was like 4 days.
My only thing is that you shouldnt need to pay for medium. I mean medium already looks bad for some people, at least make more than low free :/ Thats all. I could care less about 15$
I would love to have discounted all year deals back though
On January 14 2015 23:54 KeksX wrote: I don't believe that things can only exist if they are growing. I believe thats an archaic point of view and quite frankly it's the reason many things fail in the first place. Thats a broader topic for another day however.
The whole "sponsoring/marketing" bubble is a thing of its own.
But if you're interested in that FeyFey, since you are from Germany, look up RocketbeansTV. Especially interesting on the topic of "surviving on new media".
@thunder54:
GOM has put up a statement about that as well- their new website/system is bound to contracts and they unfortunately can not do what they would like to do with VODs. Thats how businness works sadly... If they are bound by contract to (not) do specific things, they have no choice.
@DJHelium: I do agree that it is not beneficial for us or them, but that might just be the result of the alternatives being even worse.
then they shouldn't be surprised when people refuse to pay for a product that is infinitely worse than before, should they?
I mean... I don't see them complaining, so...
The thing is...
On January 14 2015 23:05 KeksX wrote: Has nothing to do with guilt tripping, but if you truly love Starcraft it should not be a problem for you to pay for the most hardcore SC2 content out there. You also gotta admit that there comes a time for corporations to make a decision: Changing the monetization theme, or downsizing/closing down.
I'd love to subscribe to GSL, but I just can't justify it given the product I used to have.
It's just the sense of basic value for money.
If a chocolate bar that I loved halved in size but the cost stayed the same, I'd just stop buying it.
Probably alread happened somewhat, they just didn't tell you. Common practice. Look at the weight of the stuff(especially sweets) you buy.
Anyway, I for one have no problem paying 15$ for a season. Hell I paid third of that for HSC and that was like 4 days.
I'm not talking about inflation and company's gradual sneaky practices. It would just be halfing the size of the bar on the spot.
And then people would come into a thread telling me I don't love this chocolate bar enough because I refuse to buy something that's half as good as it was before.
I have no problem paying $15 a season either, or even a bit more, if I was actually getting a decent product out of it. Which I'm not.
On January 14 2015 23:54 KeksX wrote: I don't believe that things can only exist if they are growing. I believe thats an archaic point of view and quite frankly it's the reason many things fail in the first place. Thats a broader topic for another day however.
The whole "sponsoring/marketing" bubble is a thing of its own.
But if you're interested in that FeyFey, since you are from Germany, look up RocketbeansTV. Especially interesting on the topic of "surviving on new media".
@thunder54:
GOM has put up a statement about that as well- their new website/system is bound to contracts and they unfortunately can not do what they would like to do with VODs. Thats how businness works sadly... If they are bound by contract to (not) do specific things, they have no choice.
@DJHelium: I do agree that it is not beneficial for us or them, but that might just be the result of the alternatives being even worse.
then they shouldn't be surprised when people refuse to pay for a product that is infinitely worse than before, should they?
On January 14 2015 23:05 KeksX wrote: Has nothing to do with guilt tripping, but if you truly love Starcraft it should not be a problem for you to pay for the most hardcore SC2 content out there. You also gotta admit that there comes a time for corporations to make a decision: Changing the monetization theme, or downsizing/closing down.
I'd love to subscribe to GSL, but I just can't justify it given the product I used to have.
It's just the sense of basic value for money.
If a chocolate bar that I loved halved in size but the cost stayed the same, I'd just stop buying it.
+ now there is Starleague + Proleague to compete with. GOM doesnt have monopoly on the korean market anymore either, And Proleague > All imo. I don't have time to sit through 5 bo3s as often as GSL is. One (at most) bo5 with a lot of different matchups are so much more interesting to me.
it's true that the free stream quality is piss poor. it doesn't lag tho and to be fair i can easily tell what's going on most of the time... on one hand, you have to admit that paying for high quality code s games isn't an absurd demand on gom's part.. on the other hand, it's a terrible experience for anyone who isn't paying, most importantly new viewers. personally i don't mind it that much, although the 480 proleague is providing for free seems much more reasonable..
On January 15 2015 00:24 Kabras wrote: it's true that the free stream quality is piss poor. it doesn't lag tho and to be fair i can easily tell what's going on most of the time... on one hand, you have to admit that paying for high quality code s games isn't an absurd demand on gom's part.. on the other hand, it's a terrible experience for anyone who isn't paying, most importantly new viewers. personally i don't mind it that much, although the 480 proleague is providing for free seems much more reasonable..
You can get High on Twitch, and Source on Azubu for proleague. More than 480.
On January 15 2015 00:24 Kabras wrote: it's true that the free stream quality is piss poor. it doesn't lag tho and to be fair i can easily tell what's going on most of the time... on one hand, you have to admit that paying for high quality code s games isn't an absurd demand on gom's part.. on the other hand, it's a terrible experience for anyone who isn't paying, most importantly new viewers. personally i don't mind it that much, although the 480 proleague is providing for free seems much more reasonable..
Yeah, I don't think this debate is about the general idea of a paywall or that people are pissed to pay for a subscription...
I've paid for several GSL subscriptions throughout the years (mostly when it still was gomtv) and have always been fine with it, but this isn't about "giving back" like Wolf stated in his tweet, it's about GOM taking away even the mediocre quality from non-subscribers just outside of Korea without communicating nor reacting/explaining properly.
I personally have no problem with paying for Code S/Code A, I think $15 is a really sweet deal. However I can see that people don't like it that the non-subscribers are this worse off. It would be nice to have a simple solution soon. Maybe they can up the quality and make normal accessible or upload/stream also on Youtube/Azubu or something.
Still, Wolf is making a fair point: the way the world works is that if you like an idea, you should be prepared to at least throw some money at it when you're an adult. I feel bad for people who can't pay for twitch subscriptions because of different reasons, but the past three matchdays I see a lot of people subscribing to the stream and everytime it happens I feel a little better for the future of SC2.
On January 15 2015 01:12 EngrishTeacher wrote: You can watch all GSL vods on youku and sometimes on youtube, but it will either be in Chinese or Vietnamese.
I know the language so it isn't a problem for me, but you can always mute and play music or something.
The GOM eXP Korea youtube channel has always been free. I still prefer having the games cast in an understandable language.
Nah Korean Casters are totally fine. With the aaaah and oooohs and GEEEGEEE you understand 70% of what they talk about.
I watch GSL in korean atm because there is no alternative. Shure, I subbed last season, before the semis, because the whole season was great. I could have done it this season, but not when I have to watch in low for so long. And I dont pay for products that will get maybe in the future. Maybe they cancel medium for subs too, who knows.
SSL and SPL are much more viewer friendly, both to subs and frees and thus they are my main part of Starcraft II experience. Mabye I watch some games of WCS when Hydra, Polt and FORGG play out the semis. And weekenders. That will it be for now, because GOM is just giving its viewers a high five. In the Face. With a crowbar.
On January 15 2015 01:12 EngrishTeacher wrote: You can watch all GSL vods on youku and sometimes on youtube, but it will either be in Chinese or Vietnamese.
I know the language so it isn't a problem for me, but you can always mute and play music or something.
The GOM eXP Korea youtube channel has always been free. I still prefer having the games cast in an understandable language.
Oh nice, just checked out the channel, I actually prefer Korean over English, Korean casters are just so much more passionate.
A bit difficult to find the games you want though, everything is in Korean with no spoilers.
On January 15 2015 01:12 EngrishTeacher wrote: You can watch all GSL vods on youku and sometimes on youtube, but it will either be in Chinese or Vietnamese.
I know the language so it isn't a problem for me, but you can always mute and play music or something.
The GOM eXP Korea youtube channel has always been free. I still prefer having the games cast in an understandable language.
Oh nice, just checked out the channel, I actually prefer Korean over English, Korean casters are just so much more passionate.
A bit difficult to find the games you want though, everything is in Korean with no spoilers.
You can readt he round, the group letter, then the first number is the game number in a match, and the last number in the name of the video is the match number.
32-----B------3----1
--- are korean nonsense ( ^o^), so it would be round of 32, group B, third game of the first match. So you want to watch 1----1 , then 2---1, then 3---1 and then 1----2, 2----2 etc.
I tried tuning in Hurt my eyes on low quality. Tried to go to medium and it said I needed to subscribe. I finished watching that match and then left and havent been back. Won't be going back to low quality streams either.
Side note: i've tried to watch 2 dingit showmatches. Both skipped audio and video the whole time no matter what quality i tried to use.
It's sad that stream quality and VOD systems were BETTER, and are now getting worse instead of progressing.
I've paid for access to GOM since Tasteless was casting Brood War, and I'm happy to continue to do so. It's worth it just to get VOD access, and to support Tasteless and Artosis (and Baby Tosis!)
Having said that, live streams should be free and at least Medium quality.
I had the opportunity to watch the GSL today, and I thought the 480p quality was just fine, especially considered that it is FREE. Then again, if Blizzard prescribes that they should be offering 720p for free then there is no excuse for them to not do so. All the other complaints I see in this thread ("couldn't see shit", "eyes 'r hurt") make no sense to me. Either these people are incredibly spoiled, or they have terrible (or super amazing?) eyesight.
On January 15 2015 04:04 Siphyo wrote: I had the opportunity to watch the GSL today, and I thought the 480p quality was just fine, especially considered that it is FREE. Then again, if Blizzard prescribes that they should be offering 720p for free then there is no excuse for them to not do so. All the other complaints I see in this thread ("couldn't see shit", "eyes 'r hurt") make no sense to me. Either these people are incredibly spoiled, or they have terrible (or super amazing?) eyesight.
Man I haven't stayed awake to watch the live stream. Usually I'm super pumped to stay awake (especially for GSL since their vods have sucked for awhile now). But I'm not so excited to watch 360p at 3am... So I fall asleep. Watch the first game of each set off of their youtube page. Check results. It sucks, but it's what I've found to be the most pleasing.
It's such a stupid move by Gom. Any new potential viewers they have will be so turned off by the potato quality that in the long run they for sure lose money by doing this. It's like they know they're going bankrupt and just want as much money as possible while they can
Man you gotta face the reality, there aren't that many new viewers coming into SC2.
Has nothing to do with guilt tripping, but if you truly love Starcraft it should not be a problem for you to pay for the most hardcore SC2 content out there. You also gotta admit that there comes a time for corporations to make a decision: Changing the monetization theme, or downsizing/closing down.
I'm not saying that I think GSL is poor a-f, but as far as I know they've been always loyal to SC2 and even used other games (WoT) to support it. The fact that the community is so hostile to them now is quite shocking to me.
Also people making the point about legitimacy: Traditional sports almost always have exclusive deals for pay-to-view content, especially in soccer. Only the biggest events are free(just like in SC2!) most of the time.
EDIT: Missed half a sentence there in the second paragraph.
Really? I know NBA is on local channels until you hit the playoffs, then it goes exclusive (just cable based), and I know basketball isn't the only sport that does so. That's way off topic though. I'm not someone who watched GSL everyday, but I would subscribe to watch their vods during study breaks and late at night (bebefore 3 because I have a big boy schedule). It doesn't matter how poor I am, how I work 2 jobs, send money to my family, pay for university and depend on financial aid to make ends meet. I work my ass off to get what I WANT. Fact of the matter is, GSL, out of everyone the eSports world has to offer, has allowed themselves to fall to be subpar. Their shows are no longer entertaining enough ffor me to prioritize them during my off time, but during the rare times where I'm up at 3am (I got off my second job at 2:30am this morning and got home at 3), I turned on the TV and laughed at the quality before changing the channel to a different stream while I fell asleep.
You talk about $15 being nothing, but my $15 bucks and plenty more are going to people who are earning it. You're talking about business, this is just that. People aren't flocking to SC2 streams, guess what, LoL shows are more entertaining these days. I went to Korea, watched OSL and GSTL, said hi to Trap after he won his match, shook hands with Genius after the Azubu match. I was a constant subscriber to Gom, but the decisions they have made since then til now have led them to suffer, and that's not my fault.
And it is guilt tripping when you try to force poor kids to throw money away on failing organizations in a ditch effort to bring them back (not saying GOM is dead, I hope they come back with a bang and are successful, I mean they are failing right now with a subpar program). Kids and adults alike will dedicate towards eSports what they can and what they see fit... Having an awesome program is what l bring the viewers back, not an uncalled for "its only $15, don't be a bitch" sort of attitude.
Edit: Damn that was an unnecessarily long tangent... sorry, I arrived early to a meeting and just went off >_<
Boo hoo, free to watch quality isn't high enough. Unless you're in high school or jobless you should have no excuse supporting the things you love.
People bitching about this are the people who have never and will never subscribe in the first place. Free to watch is supposed to attract new viewers to join the scene not cater to the people who will never earn them the $$ to stay alive in the first place. Be a man and pay up instead of whining about having to give $15 to a company has given you free content (and still does) for YEARS.
On January 15 2015 05:37 Figgy wrote: Boo hoo, free to watch quality isn't high enough. Unless you're in high school or jobless you should have no excuse supporting the things you love.
People bitching about this are the people who have never and will never subscribe in the first place. Free to watch is supposed to attract new viewers to join the scene not cater to the people who will never earn them the $$ to stay alive in the first place. Be a man and pay up instead of whining about having to give $15 to a company has given you free content (and still does) for YEARS.
I subscribed to GomTV throughout 2011 - 2012(?). Now I'm in the middle of an MLitt with previous student loans to pay. I'd be more inclined to shell out $24* if GOM made the effort to offer 'Medium'. As it is, that's not an expense I can justify for the glory of the SC2 scene! Especially when I suspect that I'd be paying for something I really wouldn't get, if memory serves...
*Because that's how much Twitch is telling me I need to pay for 'Source'.
On January 15 2015 05:37 Figgy wrote: Boo hoo, free to watch quality isn't high enough. Unless you're in high school or jobless you should have no excuse supporting the things you love.
People bitching about this are the people who have never and will never subscribe in the first place. Free to watch is supposed to attract new viewers to join the scene not cater to the people who will never earn them the $$ to stay alive in the first place. Be a man and pay up instead of whining about having to give $15 to a company has given you free content (and still does) for YEARS.
How the hell do they attract new viewers with probably the worst stream quality out of all the SC2 tournaments? Plus there's BW being streamed at higher quality and the game was supposed to be replaced by SC2 (good thing it's still alive :3). -.-"
Even if someone new would want to watch SC2 what do you think they'd do watch crap videos on GOM or go watch the other SC2 tournaments that offer a higher quality stream? >.>
Oh, and one more thing, it might be obvious to someone that knows the game what those things on the screen are, units and numbers, but no new person is going to sit in front of a low quality stream trying to figure out what's going on, they'll either just go to another SC2 tournament or go play/watch another game that's on par stream wise with the year we're living in. -.-"
Worse is the korean stream is 1080 for free. You can literally mute it and play the crappy "free english" in the background if you really want to listen the commentators talking about anything but starcraft.
On January 15 2015 05:37 Figgy wrote: Boo hoo, free to watch quality isn't high enough. Unless you're in high school or jobless you should have no excuse supporting the things you love.
People bitching about this are the people who have never and will never subscribe in the first place. Free to watch is supposed to attract new viewers to join the scene not cater to the people who will never earn them the $$ to stay alive in the first place. Be a man and pay up instead of whining about having to give $15 to a company has given you free content (and still does) for YEARS.
Ironically hilarious this post is. Ignorance is bliss.
Firstly I would like to say, I love Blizzard all the way from Diablo ii, and sc2 is no exception. I was brought up playing and supporting video games and I'm so glad to see it's turned into an industry all of it's own. I very rarely play Sc2 anymore but I still watch religiously, and GSL was certainly a highlight of that. I mainly watch pro league, GSL, WCS EU as that's where i'm from, IEM's and community stuff like Basetrade and Dragon's output.
E-sports is now in a state where it can make money from adverts, sponsors and even backing from big satellite stations such as ESPN showing the last Blizzcon. This is a fact, many other games and organisations make a lot of money without asking for money from the supporters, many of whom are young and do not have that kind of income. Wolf mentioned when he was a student, well that is surely 18+ in America or wherever he went to study. I ask you.... How many competitors in GSL are sub 18???? LOT's, do they or their peers have this kind of money to spend? I think not.
As much as I love Sc2 and want to see it thrive, I do worry because many other games are going in a FTP direction where kids can join at a young age ans then start donating to the financial model when they are older and have the cash. I talk about buying in game add'ons or cosmetics. Such as LoL etc.
I really think GOM should think about how they are going to attract young members to our community, they have a very important role to play and Blizzard should help guide them as to how to do this. As I'm sure they where trying to when stating the requirements for holding/broadcasting WCS point accredited tournaments. Somewhere communication has broken down, people have gotten greedy and who suffers? Fan's of what some say is a dying game, certainly the young fan's who we need to attract to 'OUR' game in order for it to continue to thrive.
Sc2 is not dead, but please GOM it doesn't need another kicking...
Totally unimpressed by all of the dudes out there who just can't wait to show everyone how much more cool and less whiney they are as they dispense with the 'tough love' on an internet forum. When a brand you've been loyal to and supported through your free watching (if this makes you laugh, you're intensely ignorant, just fyi) decides to take a dump on you, you have every right to be upset about it. This is horseshit. Other games/esports aren't like this. People point out how this relates to our game struggling, that we still have to deal with archaic, impotent ideas like this. How the high quality is free for people watching the korean stream. Or how their sub model simultaneously changed to become the worst value ever. And.. you decide to just stop in and 'tell it like it is', like some internet forum cowboy who is in a perpetual state of riding off into the sunset without a need for a girlfriend. Real cool. Now go away.
Not everyone has disposable income. $14 is a weeks worth of food. Can't really afford to not eat. It's funny how people say things like "anyone can spare $14!" Yeah, not in the real world. Some people are poor. Like, actually poor. Not "so poor I order off the dollar menu at McDonalds."
The low quality stream is alright, you can still tell what's going on, which is good enough for me. But to say things like "anyone can afford the subscription" is just completely false.
On January 15 2015 06:56 Lumi wrote: Totally unimpressed by all of the dudes out there who just can't wait to show everyone how much more cool and less whiney they are as they dispense with the 'tough love' on an internet forum. When a brand you've been loyal to and supported through your free watching (if this makes you laugh, you're intensely ignorant, just fyi) decides to take a dump on you, you have every right to be upset about it. This is horseshit. Other games/esports aren't like this. People point out how this relates to our game struggling, that we still have to deal with archaic, impotent ideas like this. How the high quality is free for people watching the korean stream. Or how their sub model simultaneously changed to become the worst value ever. And.. you decide to just stop in and 'tell it like it is', like some internet forum cowboy who is in a perpetual state of riding off into the sunset without a need for a girlfriend. Real cool. Now go away.
Just because you happen to have said more stuff on a forum than someone else in the past doesn't make your points more valid. You seem to try to want to make a personal thing out of my previous post, quite sad. Most of what you say is nonsense imo and I do sub to a few channels, but when I was a young kid wouldn't have been able to and wouldn't have wanted to be watching some of the best quality games in the world in a lesser quality. I sub now because I can, I would have not been able to when I was a young kid, same as some of those pro's we watch now, I wouldn't want good talent avoiding Sc2 in the future because some companies have a backward looking business model, just my 2 cents, far too long since we have had regular foreigners doing 'really' well in Sc2. Let's encourage more. This is my point.
And don't worry about the gf issue, she has a younger sister, if u pay my GSL sub I'll introduce you ;P
On January 15 2015 05:37 Figgy wrote: Boo hoo, free to watch quality isn't high enough. Unless you're in high school or jobless you should have no excuse supporting the things you love.
The things I love?
Ok just going to sub to things I truly love and watch a lot. (probably more than I should) Dota Sing_Sing BTS Blitzdota
SC2: Proleague (subbed here too) Starleague (actually not loving GSL now because Leenock doesn't play there but rather in SSL and SPL but let's say he qualifies)
Speedrunners Demoon9
$83/month
Oh well, this didn't become expensive at all. I'm currently studying at a university so not employed either. And I filtered my streams a lot too, I just choose the ones I watch a ton.
On January 15 2015 06:56 Lumi wrote: Totally unimpressed by all of the dudes out there who just can't wait to show everyone how much more cool and less whiney they are as they dispense with the 'tough love' on an internet forum. When a brand you've been loyal to and supported through your free watching (if this makes you laugh, you're intensely ignorant, just fyi) decides to take a dump on you, you have every right to be upset about it. This is horseshit. Other games/esports aren't like this. People point out how this relates to our game struggling, that we still have to deal with archaic, impotent ideas like this. How the high quality is free for people watching the korean stream. Or how their sub model simultaneously changed to become the worst value ever. And.. you decide to just stop in and 'tell it like it is', like some internet forum cowboy who is in a perpetual state of riding off into the sunset without a need for a girlfriend. Real cool. Now go away.
Just because you happen to have said more stuff on a forum than someone else in the past doesn't make your points more valid. You seem to try to want to make a personal thing out of my previous post, quite sad. Most of what you say is nonsense imo and I do sub to a few channels, but when I was a young kid wouldn't have been able to and wouldn't have wanted to be watching some of the best quality games in the world in a lesser quality. I sub now because I can, I would have not been able to when I was a young kid, same as some of those pro's we watch now, I wouldn't want good talent avoiding Sc2 in the future because some companies have a backward looking business model, just my 2 cents, far too long since we have had regular foreigners doing 'really' well in Sc2. Let's encourage more. This is my point
I literally have no idea who you are or what you have /ever/ said on this forum before now. And I have not been reading comments in the most recent pages. Also, the first sentence you issued is based on the purest non-sense. Really confused that you actually find that psychologically plausible at large, let alone in this instance where I have nothing to do with whatever you previously said. The second sentence pushes the envelope by embarrassing you further. The irony of it is a beautiful thing, though. As for you saying that most of what I said is "non sense" - This statement is useless to me and everyone else. You haven't clarified anything that you actually disagree with, so I can't actually respond to you over anything to do with that. You basically just showed up and said some really stupid things and then moved on to talk about yourself as if you weren't a jerk and anyone cared to listen to you still. Hint: If you wouldn't act that way in real life, it's probably a bad idea to do it online. Maybe it's just the post count talking, though. -flexes and pretends to be the hulk while staring wildly at you-
I'm just kidding. I'd like to welcome you to TL and I do sincerely hope that you'll stick around and join the conversations I'm harsh, that's me, we don't have to be besties, but welcome.
Thanks for the edits It reads much nicer now. I'm far from new, just never really felt the need to comment.
Just to reiterate the one point I wanted to get across in case it was unclear. I think their is a business model that allows companies to succeed when putting on tournaments without relying on subscription money. I think they should adopt this model and be thankful of the subs from older members of the community or those that can better afford it and be thankful that as a company GOM could be proud of showing some of the best games in the world to anyone who wants to see them, whether they can afford it or not. Soon enough those games will inspire the next legends of Sc2 LotV.
It's such a stupid move by Gom. Any new potential viewers they have will be so turned off by the potato quality that in the long run they for sure lose money by doing this. It's like they know they're going bankrupt and just want as much money as possible while they can
what a tool. straight up if you're a poor college kid you shouldn't be wasting your cash on this shit.
Well. I will just no longer watch it with this quality, probably many more as well. It's just as easy as that. No bad feelings, it is GSL's right to do as they like.
That's just the law of the market. If there's equally good content with much better quality, people will watch this and not GSL.
On a side note, pay models have proven to be a failure in recent times, whether this be apps, content, games or online newspapers. Free and "freemium" models are much more successful in all areas. Free users only generate small direct income by ads but they generate much more income by additional publicity, more viewers and so on. Also there are small pay-advantages, be this twitch-chat or just visibility stuff (see LoL). I would recommend GSL to watch the big picture in markets. But as I said, it's their freedom to do as they please.
On January 15 2015 05:37 Figgy wrote: Boo hoo, free to watch quality isn't high enough. Unless you're in high school or jobless you should have no excuse supporting the things you love.
People bitching about this are the people who have never and will never subscribe in the first place. Free to watch is supposed to attract new viewers to join the scene not cater to the people who will never earn them the $$ to stay alive in the first place. Be a man and pay up instead of whining about having to give $15 to a company has given you free content (and still does) for YEARS.
GOM eXP is kept alive mostly through sponsors and advertising, which then allows the company to sell shares. This decision they made with reducing the stream quality for non-subscribers may possibly have their funding reduced by their sponsors. Or maybe it won't. It is quite clear that GOM's intention is to reduce costs while gambling on how their sponsors will react.
As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money.
On January 15 2015 10:33 Lazare1969 wrote: As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money.
Wow.
I haven't bothered with these forums in months but that was such a massive level of stupidity I had to log in to mock it.
You may have been told all your life that you're a very special snowflake but it's time to get over yourself. The law of economics isn't going to make an exception because you feel slighted. If you guys want GOM to join NASL and IPL, just keep right on.
On January 15 2015 10:33 Lazare1969 wrote: As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money.
Wow.
I haven't bothered with these forums in months but that was such a massive level of stupidity I had to log in to mock it.
You may have been told all your life that you're a very special snowflake but it's time to get over yourself. The law of economics isn't going to make an exception because you feel slighted. If you guys want GOM to join NASL and IPL, just keep right on.
Why are you being so defensive when GOM was the one that broke one of the WCS rules of stream quality? How about having a discussion without belittling someone else?
This has nothing to do with being cheap and not wanting to pay. If you think this kind of bullshit is good for attracting viewers to their "highest level tournament' or the sc2 scene in general, then wake up and stop drinking the kool-aid. This also completely contradicts Blizzard's stated goal of improving the quality of WCS tournaments. Futhermore, the fact that Blizzard hasn't done anything or made any statement about this pretty much tells you they don't really care about their own game.
This ain't 2011 anymore where they could get away this shit when sc2 was at its peak. Times have changed and pretty much all of their competition offer HD quality streams for free now. Sc2 is in a decline and having this restrictive barrier to their premiere tournament is just moronic.
This has nothing to do with being cheap and not wanting to pay. If you think this kind of bullshit is good for attracting viewers to their "highest level tournament' or the sc2 scene in general, then wake up and stop drinking the kool-aid. This also completely contradicts Blizzard's stated goal of improving the quality of WCS tournaments. Futhermore, the fact that Blizzard hasn't done anything or made any statement about this pretty much tells you they don't really care about their own game.
This ain't 2011 anymore where they could get away this shit when sc2 was at its peak. Times have changed and pretty much all of their competition offer HD quality streams for free now. Sc2 is in a decline and having this restrictive barrier to their premiere tournament is just moronic.
Pretty much my thoughts. What will new/random person do when open that terrible blurry stream? My guess is that 99% will just instantly close it, instead of thinking "hey, it's a great game and tournament, I don't mind paying to watch it properly". I guess some hardcore fans don't mind paying, but SC2 is on decline and it won't change until LoTV beta (and even that will be just a temporary boost, just as HoTS was, but that's another story) and with that move GOM pretty much eliminates any chances to get new paying customers.
P.S. I bet if it was somehow possible, they'd provide super low quality sound for free too. They probably think that only paying customers deserve to hear Tastosis properly.
Low quality SC2 streams eliminate the argument that SC2 graphics are better then BW. How can this sequel be more enjoyable to watch if we can't even see them game without feeling like our eyeballs have a permanent smudge while watching them play. This is definitely a case in where the provider is hurting the game.
On January 15 2015 14:17 Cheeseling wrote: I'm pretty sure that pirate streamers gonna be really happy about this change Last time I ended up watching it on some russian site in HD.
On January 15 2015 05:37 Figgy wrote: Boo hoo, free to watch quality isn't high enough. Unless you're in high school or jobless you should have no excuse supporting the things you love.
The things I love?
Ok just going to sub to things I truly love and watch a lot. (probably more than I should) Dota Sing_Sing BTS Blitzdota
SC2: Proleague (subbed here too) Starleague (actually not loving GSL now because Leenock doesn't play there but rather in SSL and SPL but let's say he qualifies)
Speedrunners Demoon9
$83/month
Oh well, this didn't become expensive at all. I'm currently studying at a university so not employed either. And I filtered my streams a lot too, I just choose the ones I watch a ton.
No man, you only TRULY LOVE GSL.... This isn't the bigger picture that those trying to guilt trip are hoping you forget about...
It's such a stupid move by Gom. Any new potential viewers they have will be so turned off by the potato quality that in the long run they for sure lose money by doing this. It's like they know they're going bankrupt and just want as much money as possible while they can
what a tool. straight up if you're a poor college kid you shouldn't be wasting your cash on this shit.
Absolutely. But you shouldn't be whinging about not being able to watch it for free either. That's life.
At the end of the day, vote with your wallet. If you don't feel its worth it to subscribe or watch in low then don't. Time will tell if this is good for the GSL in the long run. There's no need to disguise your personal dissatisfaction by white-knighting the 'community'.
I still care enough to keep up with game which is in steady decline since 2011. Hardcore paying fan boys you have to realize that if you loose us, price money, production value and skill pool will decrease in most tournaments. They need view numbers to show their sponsors. We wont be replaced since there is almost no new blood coming into this game.
What really makes me sick is silence of figures like Artosis, Tasteless or even big entities like Blizzard. I understand point of view of casting archon, they are invested too much and they never been famous for standing up for community.
On the other hand I really respect Totalbiscuit and Apollo. Even Wolf deserve some recognition, he at least try to make his argument instead of total silence from GOM.
If somebody argues "support what you love" .. well frankly I don't love this game anymore. I feel greed ruined something possibly great. All I can give you is increased view counter on your streams if I am too tired to do something productive and spread info about tournaments to my friends. Why should I suddenly have to pay for medium quality ? Game is tactically stagnating, there is low change I will be excited in any match, time for Europe is horrendous and there is no foreign hope in the horizon.
Arnold Schwarzenegger in his tips for success says "Give something back". That's my main problem with both archon and GOM stance. They got sponsorship money from Blizzard, they got foreign community inviting Korean champions to tournaments to take whole price pools they even have fan boys supporting them for several years.
What they give back ? They decrease stream quality.
On January 15 2015 10:33 Lazare1969 wrote: As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money.
Wow.
I haven't bothered with these forums in months but that was such a massive level of stupidity I had to log in to mock it.
You may have been told all your life that you're a very special snowflake but it's time to get over yourself. The law of economics isn't going to make an exception because you feel slighted. If you guys want GOM to join NASL and IPL, just keep right on.
Why are you being so defensive when GOM was the one that broke one of the WCS rules of stream quality? How about having a discussion without belittling someone else?
Because they did NOT BREAK ANY RULES. READ! Goddamnit, READ!
If you want a serious discussion then let's discuss how TotalBiscuits pulls more viewers on his LotV tournament than GSL on a stacked day. Let's discuss how everyone here jumps the hate bandwagon even though they have no idea WHY GOM made that decision.
Let's discuss how people say "X and Y are how GOM makes money, I know because I'm registered on TeamLiquid". Let's discuss how no one here realizes that what GOM does is not breaking any rule, but people make it look like GOM is an illegal drug ring now.
Let's discuss how people say that eSports will never be legitimate even though this practice is perfectly normal on traditional sports. Let alone the fact that one SC2 league does not represent the entirety of eSports. Let's discuss how GOM has used money from other eSports titles to support SC2.
Let's discuss, after all these things considered, how this should be more Blizzard's fault for letting this "loophole" kind of thing happening and giving room for someone, whoever that might have been for GOM, to decide to block off free 720p for global viewers.
Because I've said all these things, but all I hear back is "They're breaking mah WCS rullz!!"
I like starcraft but I hate greed. So Gom can happily milk 14 bucks for 1000 users, but I'll never open this stream until it's watchable. So they can have their - 5000 subscribers right away.
Gom may want to partner up with Gunnar after this week...
On January 15 2015 18:33 BlueStar wrote: I like starcraft but I hate greed. So Gom can happily milk 14 bucks for 1000 users, but I'll never open this stream until it's watchable. So they can have their - 5000 subscribers right away.
Gom may want to partner up with Gunnar after this week...
You hate "GREED"!? ....................... Yeah, thatss totally why GOM is doing it. That has been their plan all along. Get those MASSIVE 15k viewers and then force everyone to sub! Hahahaha!
Damn, when did we abandon GOM exactly? Was it before or after they've done everything for the korean SC2 scene?
Or was it before or after they've done much to both scenes by including foreigners in their league, supporting them with housing and all that? Without asking for anything back from the community? Or was it when they arranged their whole league around foreign tournaments so that WE could watch foreigners get rekt by Koreans and enjoy the shit out of it because they're right in front of us?
This is one of the biggest temper tantrums the starcraft community has thrown in a while. People don't know anything and yet make the wildest assumptions...
On January 15 2015 10:33 Lazare1969 wrote: As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money.
Wow.
I haven't bothered with these forums in months but that was such a massive level of stupidity I had to log in to mock it.
You may have been told all your life that you're a very special snowflake but it's time to get over yourself. The law of economics isn't going to make an exception because you feel slighted. If you guys want GOM to join NASL and IPL, just keep right on.
What exactly are you trying to argue? You do realize that I'm defending GOM's action as a standard business decision, right?
If GOM can't figure out how to make a profitable business, it's not my problem. Only a complete nut would blame the customers for the failure of a company.
So for you young guys out there, when anyone tells you to "be a man and pay up", grab your wallet and run in the opposite direction, because that approximately translates to they want to fuck you over.
On January 15 2015 18:33 BlueStar wrote: I like starcraft but I hate greed. So Gom can happily milk 14 bucks for 1000 users, but I'll never open this stream until it's watchable. So they can have their - 5000 subscribers right away.
Gom may want to partner up with Gunnar after this week...
You hate "GREED"!? ....................... Yeah, thatss totally why GOM is doing it. That has been their plan all along. Get those MASSIVE 15k viewers and then force everyone to sub! Hahahaha!
Damn, when did we abandon GOM exactly? Was it before or after they've done everything for the korean SC2 scene?
Or was it before or after they've done much to both scenes by including foreigners in their league, supporting them with housing and all that? Without asking for anything back from the community? Or was it when they arranged their whole league around foreign tournaments so that WE could watch foreigners get rekt by Koreans and enjoy the shit out of it because they're right in front of us?
This is one of the biggest temper tantrums the starcraft community has thrown in a while. People don't know anything and yet make the wildest assumptions...
If it's not GOM it'd be another organization. The profit isn't a thing that will be missed by everyone else than gom.
I'm marketing guy and it is insulting to me as professional to see how they mug their customers. Have you heard of customer centric marketing?
They are more like service oriented marketing - so they can feel like being Mercedes in esports, but mercedes can't compare with many other automotive producers nowadays because of their marketing model. And Gom are doomed with such approach in the web.
Their actions are HUGE insult to all the sc2 fans around the world (except Korea obviously).
I don't know what you are trying to say. You adressed none of my points.
If it's not GOM it'd be another organization.
But it is...?
Whether or not P2V is a viable model on the web remains to be seen, GOM is not doing it. They are in fact doing customer centric marketing though, because they deem no-subbing, adblocking customers to be useless and instead focus on the paying ones.
On January 15 2015 19:26 DoK_- wrote: It's fine, BW is back on OGN , just continue like this GOM and we will all be back to the awesome BW in some times :D
Dear god no. As much as I loved BW, my eyes are so much happier with SC2.
Whether or not P2V is a viable model on the web remains to be seen, GOM is not doing it. They are in fact doing customer centric marketing though, because they deem no-subbing, adblocking customers to be useless and instead focus on the paying ones.
Creating a positive consumer experience at the point of sale and post-sale.
Positive consumer experience at the point of sale - my experience is that I'm thinking when I'll need to see the doctor (if I can still see with my eyes) and post-sale - killing their VOD system and doing nothing for this over an year?
Let's be honest. Gom has been doing bad and they are even doing it worse this year.
If they don't care about the user experience and are happy with the people who protect them... these people will be less and less.
Have fun watching GOM for the sake of GOM, but I'm watching GOM for the sake of SC2. And there isn't SC2 via Gom for me any more.
.
P.S. You are talking about content marketing which is just a piece from the whole mix.
Customer centric marketing implies that you are focusing on the "profitable" customers, though. And people using adblock that don't sub aren't very profitable. People say "well then get sponsors" but how are you gonna justify 15k viewers on average to sponsors? Single streamers get more than that.
About your other posts: We have no idea about contracts behind the scenes. I wouldn't be so quick to say that GOM did all this to screw us over because they hate us so much.
I for one am enjoying GSL. You have fun watching what you want, but then don't come in here and call out greed to the organization that played a major role in building the SC2 scene.
On January 15 2015 19:45 KeksX wrote: Single streamers get more than that.
You are right on this one.
It may be sorcery but if you are a huge, well respected, and doing good things organization and if there is just one person who can attract more attention - you are doing really bad and it's a 100% prove that you don't know what your audience needs.
On January 15 2015 19:45 KeksX wrote: Single streamers get more than that.
You are right on this one.
It may be sorcery but if you are a huge, well respected, and doing good things organization and if there is just one person who can attract more attention - you are doing really bad and it's a 100% prove that you don't know what your audience needs.
This post is pure, unadulterated ignorance.
First, you're contradicting yourself.
One person can attract more attention and knowing what your audience needs? The GSL audience is not the one that those single streamers attract.
The GSL's targeted audience can be divided into two groups:
1.) Viewers that grant them additional sponsorship revenue
2.) Viewers that grant them subscription revenue
The GSL has only secured domestic sponsors, meaning that Twitch.tv does not have the target audience (Twitch.tv does not future a large domestic Korean demographic)
International subscription-revenue-granting viewers are worth many times more than any other viewer. Starcraft 2 had the audience with the largest conversion rate of viewer to subscriber/monetization in 2011 (I don't have up-to-date information, and I suspect Dota 2 has surpassed it on this front with the in-game ticketing and vanity items.) with a large number of them being GSL subscribers. This is their strategy, targeting that same audience that has kept them going.
I'm sure the alternative is to stop English production, cut the English casters, and focus solely on the Korean market, where sponsorship can grant greater revenues. If people remember, in 2010/2011, we had the even lower quality free English stream while Korea maintained their free high quality, for the same reasons. Historical data supports Gom's approach, meaning they know their audience.
As for single streamers generating bigger numbers... that is ridiculous. People watch the English Twitch.TV GSL cast for the highest level of Starcraft competition with English commentary and production. Who is the single streamer offering the same product with more viewers?
If you say the product is entertainment with the objective being attention, then... both 'single streamers' and Gom are blown out by ANY mainstream celebrity or Twitter engagement.
On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this?
On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this?
Different pricings for different regions.
you didnt explain anything you merely reworded my statement.
Edit: Thank you KeksX for the post below this one .
Same reason why on steam you sometimes find that other regions pay way less than the average EU citizen.
I was not aware of this, unrelated question do you happen to know how many korean viewers GSL average?
On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this?
Different pricings for different regions.
you didnt explain anything you merely reworded my my statement.
The average korean viewer has far less money to spend than the average EU/NA viewer would be the most plausible explanation.
Same reason why on steam you sometimes find that other regions pay way less than the average EU citizen.
Could also be contract issues yet again or something with Twitch/YT in general.
On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this?
Because Koreans get Korean ads and also sponsorship money and TV subscription revenue, while we have to pay the only way we can: via Twitch.
Hot6 is Korean only, I doubt that any of their money goes to the English crew.
On January 15 2015 10:33 Lazare1969 wrote: As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money.
Wow.
I haven't bothered with these forums in months but that was such a massive level of stupidity I had to log in to mock it.
You may have been told all your life that you're a very special snowflake but it's time to get over yourself. The law of economics isn't going to make an exception because you feel slighted. If you guys want GOM to join NASL and IPL, just keep right on.
Why are you being so defensive when GOM was the one that broke one of the WCS rules of stream quality? How about having a discussion without belittling someone else?
Because they did NOT BREAK ANY RULES. READ! Goddamnit, READ!
If you want a serious discussion then let's discuss how TotalBiscuits pulls more viewers on his LotV tournament than GSL on a stacked day. Let's discuss how everyone here jumps the hate bandwagon even though they have no idea WHY GOM made that decision.
Let's discuss how people say "X and Y are how GOM makes money, I know because I'm registered on TeamLiquid". Let's discuss how no one here realizes that what GOM does is not breaking any rule, but people make it look like GOM is an illegal drug ring now.
Let's discuss how people say that eSports will never be legitimate even though this practice is perfectly normal on traditional sports. Let alone the fact that one SC2 league does not represent the entirety of eSports. Let's discuss how GOM has used money from other eSports titles to support SC2.
Let's discuss, after all these things considered, how this should be more Blizzard's fault for letting this "loophole" kind of thing happening and giving room for someone, whoever that might have been for GOM, to decide to block off free 720p for global viewers.
Because I've said all these things, but all I hear back is "They're breaking mah WCS rullz!!"
Blizzard advertised free 720p, they stream at 360p. That is breaking the rules Blizzard set up. How about we turn down that anger. I was using logic, you are using anger. Trying to belittle my argument with exaggeration.
On January 15 2015 10:33 Lazare1969 wrote: As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money.
Wow.
I haven't bothered with these forums in months but that was such a massive level of stupidity I had to log in to mock it.
You may have been told all your life that you're a very special snowflake but it's time to get over yourself. The law of economics isn't going to make an exception because you feel slighted. If you guys want GOM to join NASL and IPL, just keep right on.
Why are you being so defensive when GOM was the one that broke one of the WCS rules of stream quality? How about having a discussion without belittling someone else?
Because they did NOT BREAK ANY RULES. READ! Goddamnit, READ!
If you want a serious discussion then let's discuss how TotalBiscuits pulls more viewers on his LotV tournament than GSL on a stacked day. Let's discuss how everyone here jumps the hate bandwagon even though they have no idea WHY GOM made that decision.
Let's discuss how people say "X and Y are how GOM makes money, I know because I'm registered on TeamLiquid". Let's discuss how no one here realizes that what GOM does is not breaking any rule, but people make it look like GOM is an illegal drug ring now.
Let's discuss how people say that eSports will never be legitimate even though this practice is perfectly normal on traditional sports. Let alone the fact that one SC2 league does not represent the entirety of eSports. Let's discuss how GOM has used money from other eSports titles to support SC2.
Let's discuss, after all these things considered, how this should be more Blizzard's fault for letting this "loophole" kind of thing happening and giving room for someone, whoever that might have been for GOM, to decide to block off free 720p for global viewers.
Because I've said all these things, but all I hear back is "They're breaking mah WCS rullz!!"
Blizzard advertised free 720p, they stream at 360p. That is breaking the rules Blizzard set up. How about we turn down that anger. I was using logic, you are using anger. Trying to belittle my argument with exaggeration.
It says WCS Global Events. WCS KR/GSL is NOT a global event.
On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this?
Because Koreans get Korean ads and also sponsorship money and TV subscription revenue, while we have to pay the only way we can: via Twitch.
Hot6 is Korean only, I doubt that any of their money goes to the English crew.
That is a very good point which I just thought of on my way home. GOM's main sponsors don't really target EU/NA viewers.
On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this?
Different pricings for different regions.
you didnt explain anything you merely reworded my statement.
Edit: Thank you KeksX for the post below this one .
Same reason why on steam you sometimes find that other regions pay way less than the average EU citizen.
I was not aware of this, unrelated question do you happen to know how many korean viewers GSL average?
About that: I sadly have no idea how many korean viewers they have. On twitch they have a bit that like to troll the chat, but I guess most watch via YT and I can't see those numbers.
Elementary economics - vote with your money. GOM also prepares its policies with respect to profits.
Price higher than your maximum willingness to pay? Then don't pay and don't watch. Seek other sources of entertainment. Enjoying lesser utility from now on is a fact of life.
Emotion has little to do with what a rational consumer is to choose.
On January 15 2015 23:53 var username wrote: Emotion has little to do with what a rational consumer is to choose.
Weird point because the sole reason to pay for any eSports thing is emotionally. There's no rational justification for watching 2 people play a video games against each other.
On January 15 2015 12:00 ilikeredheads wrote: Sc2 is in a decline and having this restrictive barrier to their premiere tournament is just moronic.
And does it matter to you that this "restrictive barrier" wasn't around all of 2014 when the decline was occurring? Richard Lewis was certain GOM wouldn't even be around this year so arguments that this will just make the decline go faster shouldn't be that persuasive.
On January 15 2015 17:45 xM(Z wrote: 15$ is around 5% of a monthly paycheck ... go pirates!
You are making $300 a month? Just $75 a week? Only $15 a day? How sad. On the bright side, the subscription covers roughly three months so that averages it down to under 2% each month.
On January 15 2015 18:39 KeksX wrote: You hate "GREED"!? ....................... Yeah, thatss totally why GOM is doing it. That has been their plan all along. Get those MASSIVE 15k viewers and then force everyone to sub! Hahahaha!
I don't know about other gaming communities but I've always been stunned by the level of entitlement from some SC2 fans. Gimme, gimme, gimme. Just ask Sundance.
On January 15 2015 18:52 Lazare1969 wrote: You do realize that I'm defending GOM's action as a standard business decision, right?
You know, I think you might actually believe that.
On January 15 2015 18:39 KeksX wrote: You hate "GREED"!? ....................... Yeah, thatss totally why GOM is doing it. That has been their plan all along. Get those MASSIVE 15k viewers and then force everyone to sub! Hahahaha!
I don't know about other gaming communities but I've always been stunned by the level of entitlement from some SC2 fans. Gimme, gimme, gimme. Just ask Sundance.
I'm not sure why you're quoting me on this, I was being sarcastic.
I don't know about other gaming communities but I've always been stunned by the level of entitlement from some SC2 fans. Gimme, gimme, gimme. Just ask Sundance.
Shure, other Gaming Communities are tortured by 360p. Oh wait, LoL, Dota II, CS:GO, the large Minecraft Community, MMO Community. Nobody there would ever think about enforcing low quality streams on their viewers. And hell, even in SC II nobody besides GOM would ever do it. Even the smallest Gaming Communities like Halo and Co stream in HD for all. There is a standard for streaming and GOM was allways below it with its medium 30fps. But that was okay, because people were not only used to it, but acceptet it. With the change they broke the lines, that their customers where used to. And not only that, they also deliver besides HD (what is free in all other scenes and SC II streams ), there VOD System is TRASH since they started it and they do not care about it. When there is so much free content with the same or above standard, you will allways aks yourself, why pay it? And yeah, why pay for a product, that its his flaws (VOD System), when they do not want to improve it. Normally a company tries to improve their product to gain more customers and hold the old ones, but GOM never improved. And now they became worse. You either have to pay more for 1080p or yo u pay the same and get less quality. And you are allways right, when you say 15$ for normal or 23$ for 1080p, who cares in the US or western EU (when he is old enough for paypall and erns his own money). But people care, because even when you pay 15$, you do not want something, that becomes worse each year. And GOM became worse this year and it became seriously worse without any tries to improve since they started the twitch VOD System.
If you want to hide behind a paywall do it. But dont be suprised when the streamchat writes Medium or Riot, because he had 1 year medium qualitiy for free and acceptet it as a standard and after you block the chat, do not write "totally owned". It is not only bad communication. It is very arrogant behaviour, that makes the people mad.
On January 15 2015 10:33 Lazare1969 wrote: As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money.
Wow.
I haven't bothered with these forums in months but that was such a massive level of stupidity I had to log in to mock it.
You may have been told all your life that you're a very special snowflake but it's time to get over yourself. The law of economics isn't going to make an exception because you feel slighted. If you guys want GOM to join NASL and IPL, just keep right on.
Why are you being so defensive when GOM was the one that broke one of the WCS rules of stream quality? How about having a discussion without belittling someone else?
Because they did NOT BREAK ANY RULES. READ! Goddamnit, READ!
If you want a serious discussion then let's discuss how TotalBiscuits pulls more viewers on his LotV tournament than GSL on a stacked day. Let's discuss how everyone here jumps the hate bandwagon even though they have no idea WHY GOM made that decision.
Let's discuss how people say "X and Y are how GOM makes money, I know because I'm registered on TeamLiquid". Let's discuss how no one here realizes that what GOM does is not breaking any rule, but people make it look like GOM is an illegal drug ring now.
Let's discuss how people say that eSports will never be legitimate even though this practice is perfectly normal on traditional sports. Let alone the fact that one SC2 league does not represent the entirety of eSports. Let's discuss how GOM has used money from other eSports titles to support SC2.
Let's discuss, after all these things considered, how this should be more Blizzard's fault for letting this "loophole" kind of thing happening and giving room for someone, whoever that might have been for GOM, to decide to block off free 720p for global viewers.
Because I've said all these things, but all I hear back is "They're breaking mah WCS rullz!!"
Blizzard advertised free 720p, they stream at 360p. That is breaking the rules Blizzard set up. How about we turn down that anger. I was using logic, you are using anger. Trying to belittle my argument with exaggeration.
It says WCS Global Events. WCS KR/GSL is NOT a global event.
On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this?
Because Koreans get Korean ads and also sponsorship money and TV subscription revenue, while we have to pay the only way we can: via Twitch.
Hot6 is Korean only, I doubt that any of their money goes to the English crew.
That is a very good point which I just thought of on my way home. GOM's main sponsors don't really target EU/NA viewers.
On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this?
Different pricings for different regions.
you didnt explain anything you merely reworded my statement.
Edit: Thank you KeksX for the post below this one .
Same reason why on steam you sometimes find that other regions pay way less than the average EU citizen.
I was not aware of this, unrelated question do you happen to know how many korean viewers GSL average?
About that: I sadly have no idea how many korean viewers they have. On twitch they have a bit that like to troll the chat, but I guess most watch via YT and I can't see those numbers.
How about you read:
Two global premier leagues in Korea: GSL by GOM eXP and SPOTV Games Individual League
On January 15 2015 10:33 Lazare1969 wrote: As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money.
Wow.
I haven't bothered with these forums in months but that was such a massive level of stupidity I had to log in to mock it.
You may have been told all your life that you're a very special snowflake but it's time to get over yourself. The law of economics isn't going to make an exception because you feel slighted. If you guys want GOM to join NASL and IPL, just keep right on.
Why are you being so defensive when GOM was the one that broke one of the WCS rules of stream quality? How about having a discussion without belittling someone else?
Because they did NOT BREAK ANY RULES. READ! Goddamnit, READ!
If you want a serious discussion then let's discuss how TotalBiscuits pulls more viewers on his LotV tournament than GSL on a stacked day. Let's discuss how everyone here jumps the hate bandwagon even though they have no idea WHY GOM made that decision.
Let's discuss how people say "X and Y are how GOM makes money, I know because I'm registered on TeamLiquid". Let's discuss how no one here realizes that what GOM does is not breaking any rule, but people make it look like GOM is an illegal drug ring now.
Let's discuss how people say that eSports will never be legitimate even though this practice is perfectly normal on traditional sports. Let alone the fact that one SC2 league does not represent the entirety of eSports. Let's discuss how GOM has used money from other eSports titles to support SC2.
Let's discuss, after all these things considered, how this should be more Blizzard's fault for letting this "loophole" kind of thing happening and giving room for someone, whoever that might have been for GOM, to decide to block off free 720p for global viewers.
Because I've said all these things, but all I hear back is "They're breaking mah WCS rullz!!"
Blizzard advertised free 720p, they stream at 360p. That is breaking the rules Blizzard set up. How about we turn down that anger. I was using logic, you are using anger. Trying to belittle my argument with exaggeration.
It says WCS Global Events. WCS KR/GSL is NOT a global event.
I quote myself.
READ! Goddamnit, READ!
Also:
On January 15 2015 22:38 Growiel wrote:
On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this?
Because Koreans get Korean ads and also sponsorship money and TV subscription revenue, while we have to pay the only way we can: via Twitch.
Hot6 is Korean only, I doubt that any of their money goes to the English crew.
That is a very good point which I just thought of on my way home. GOM's main sponsors don't really target EU/NA viewers.
On January 15 2015 21:43 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
On January 15 2015 20:42 KeksX wrote:
On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this?
Different pricings for different regions.
you didnt explain anything you merely reworded my statement.
Edit: Thank you KeksX for the post below this one .
Same reason why on steam you sometimes find that other regions pay way less than the average EU citizen.
I was not aware of this, unrelated question do you happen to know how many korean viewers GSL average?
About that: I sadly have no idea how many korean viewers they have. On twitch they have a bit that like to troll the chat, but I guess most watch via YT and I can't see those numbers.
WCS partner events were successful last year at tying in tournaments outside the WCS league structure into the overall WCS umbrella. The WCS Points System will be adjusted to balance the points between GSL, SPOTV Games Individual League, and WCS Premier League. The points distribution for the partner WCS Global Events will remain the same (7000, 4000, 1800), but the requirements for WCS Global Events have been updated and more defined.
They make a clear distinction between Global Leagues and Global "Partner" Events.
On January 15 2015 10:33 Lazare1969 wrote: As for the "be a man and pay up" comment, too many people make that kind of comment without realizing how self-deluding it is to command strangers on how to live their lives and spend their money.
Wow.
I haven't bothered with these forums in months but that was such a massive level of stupidity I had to log in to mock it.
You may have been told all your life that you're a very special snowflake but it's time to get over yourself. The law of economics isn't going to make an exception because you feel slighted. If you guys want GOM to join NASL and IPL, just keep right on.
Why are you being so defensive when GOM was the one that broke one of the WCS rules of stream quality? How about having a discussion without belittling someone else?
Because they did NOT BREAK ANY RULES. READ! Goddamnit, READ!
If you want a serious discussion then let's discuss how TotalBiscuits pulls more viewers on his LotV tournament than GSL on a stacked day. Let's discuss how everyone here jumps the hate bandwagon even though they have no idea WHY GOM made that decision.
Let's discuss how people say "X and Y are how GOM makes money, I know because I'm registered on TeamLiquid". Let's discuss how no one here realizes that what GOM does is not breaking any rule, but people make it look like GOM is an illegal drug ring now.
Let's discuss how people say that eSports will never be legitimate even though this practice is perfectly normal on traditional sports. Let alone the fact that one SC2 league does not represent the entirety of eSports. Let's discuss how GOM has used money from other eSports titles to support SC2.
Let's discuss, after all these things considered, how this should be more Blizzard's fault for letting this "loophole" kind of thing happening and giving room for someone, whoever that might have been for GOM, to decide to block off free 720p for global viewers.
Because I've said all these things, but all I hear back is "They're breaking mah WCS rullz!!"
Blizzard advertised free 720p, they stream at 360p. That is breaking the rules Blizzard set up. How about we turn down that anger. I was using logic, you are using anger. Trying to belittle my argument with exaggeration.
It says WCS Global Events. WCS KR/GSL is NOT a global event.
On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this?
Because Koreans get Korean ads and also sponsorship money and TV subscription revenue, while we have to pay the only way we can: via Twitch.
Hot6 is Korean only, I doubt that any of their money goes to the English crew.
That is a very good point which I just thought of on my way home. GOM's main sponsors don't really target EU/NA viewers.
On January 15 2015 20:11 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I find it odd that source is free for koreans yet foreigners have to stick to low. Wheres the logic behind this?
Different pricings for different regions.
you didnt explain anything you merely reworded my statement.
Edit: Thank you KeksX for the post below this one .
Same reason why on steam you sometimes find that other regions pay way less than the average EU citizen.
I was not aware of this, unrelated question do you happen to know how many korean viewers GSL average?
About that: I sadly have no idea how many korean viewers they have. On twitch they have a bit that like to troll the chat, but I guess most watch via YT and I can't see those numbers.
I think even more watch on TV than YT and/or Twitch. And I'm pretty sure they also have (or at least had, not sure if it's still a thing) an Afreeca.tv stream, which is the most popular streaming site here in Korea.
Well I dunno, I do find it weird that hardly any event is 1080p for free in SC2, as every single event as far as I can tell in Dota 2 is free.
I just feel like SC2 viewers as a whole refuse to give money to a tournament, which has been shown in the past when it can to the number of monthly subscriptions, etc. Compared to Dota (it's where I'm now), people are much more likely to throw money at a wall. Especially when the scene is arguably on a slight decline, it's even harder for tournaments to finance each other, and hence foregoing this 240p rule.
I think it's absurd, and fully believe that there is not a more idiotic way to monetize a tournament (charging for higher quality). I'd much rather see people receive a portrait, new decals, or new skins for subscribing. Also having a few raffles or something for subscribers would be a good idea.
Dont do it. Dont support GOM if they pull stuff like that. In 2015 we have to watch 360p (which is low on twitch) or pay money for 720p? Gom was always bad (quality wise) but this puts it over the top. I Hope they get something good from Blizzard for this sh**. Free 720p quality shouldnt even have to be mentioned. Every other game has it and had it for A WHILE. But a declining/dying game tries to milk ppl who are watching.. yeah, sure... f*** off, GOM
On January 16 2015 02:00 FiWiFaKi wrote: Well I dunno, I do find it weird that hardly any event is 1080p for free in SC2, as every single event as far as I can tell in Dota 2 is free.
I just feel like SC2 viewers as a whole refuse to give money to a tournament, which has been shown in the past when it can to the number of monthly subscriptions, etc. Compared to Dota (it's where I'm now), people are much more likely to throw money at a wall. Especially when the scene is arguably on a slight decline, it's even harder for tournaments to finance each other, and hence foregoing this 240p rule.
I think it's absurd, and fully believe that there is not a more idiotic way to monetize a tournament (charging for higher quality). I'd much rather see people receive a portrait, new decals, or new skins for subscribing. Also having a few raffles or something for subscribers would be a good idea.
that's a really big issue for sc2 compared to other games. there's no hats, no in game tickets, not any one thing that makes a ton of money for other games. the game client itself doesn't allow for any of this so organizations have to resort to something else. if dota didn't have tickets, compendiums, tournament couriers, bundles and 10000 other things that viewers can buy and support tournaments through, maybe we'd have to pay for 720p Bruno and LD as well. i agree that what gom's doing is a terrible way to monetize the broadcast, but blizzard isn't giving them a ton of other options either. it could just be that they're not idiots/assholes but rather in a pretty desperate position.
On January 15 2015 18:39 KeksX wrote: You hate "GREED"!? ....................... Yeah, thatss totally why GOM is doing it. That has been their plan all along. Get those MASSIVE 15k viewers and then force everyone to sub! Hahahaha!
I don't know about other gaming communities but I've always been stunned by the level of entitlement from some SC2 fans. Gimme, gimme, gimme. Just ask Sundance.
Is it too much to be asked that foreigner viewers demand to be treated equally to the Korean viewers? At least make the Korean stream watchable without proxy shenanigans...
On January 16 2015 02:00 FiWiFaKi wrote: Well I dunno, I do find it weird that hardly any event is 1080p for free in SC2, as every single event as far as I can tell in Dota 2 is free.
I just feel like SC2 viewers as a whole refuse to give money to a tournament, which has been shown in the past when it can to the number of monthly subscriptions, etc. Compared to Dota (it's where I'm now), people are much more likely to throw money at a wall. Especially when the scene is arguably on a slight decline, it's even harder for tournaments to finance each other, and hence foregoing this 240p rule.
I think it's absurd, and fully believe that there is not a more idiotic way to monetize a tournament (charging for higher quality). I'd much rather see people receive a portrait, new decals, or new skins for subscribing. Also having a few raffles or something for subscribers would be a good idea.
Do you see the issue? DotA2 has full-blown support from Valve towards eSports, whereas SC2 has a very small development team. Sooo... due to the missing engineering power, tournaments have to go back to stuff like that.
And really, the starcraft community shows itself from its worst side again. Just read this little piece on reddit:
the thing is people used to love gomtv, how they aimed at foreign audience in past. Now it seems they dont give a fuck, so people feel betrayed. basicaly we got dumped and thats why we cry .)
GomTV dumped us guys! .... these guys annoy me so much.
On January 15 2015 17:45 xM(Z wrote: 15$ is around 5% of a monthly paycheck ... go pirates!
You are making $300 a month? Just $75 a week? Only $15 a day? How sad. On the bright side, the subscription covers roughly three months so that averages it down to under 2% each month.
but, but, my kids ... be left with no bread'n shit.
so now, let me help you. what you should've taken from that post is that the fee doesn't have the same weight for all people; acknowledge it and move the fuck on. don't rag on the little people. moving on now - practically, it's not 2% per month, per 30 days, but 2% for about 4 - 5 days but w/e.
On January 16 2015 19:14 WonnaPlay wrote: Is it a bird?
Is it a plane?
Is it a oracle?
No.. it's just a probe
be a man pay the bucks and you will see it's a tree :D
hahaha :D
I have paid for the GSL consecutively from 2011 to 2013, but currently I'm not that interested in VODs / viewing it all the time, since I don't play Sc2 myself atm. Also I can only watch fragments of the games, due to me being at work (haha). Once LotV comes, I will gladly pay again for VODs, but the fact that I can't even watch the difference between a probe and a tree is absurd.
I have had 3x 1 year subscription and am now back to this. It's really bad costumer service and eventhough I understand the predicament they're in. It influences my choice to not pay anything for GSL anymore. I pay for the VODs, not for the high quality. Now I need to pay for the high quality if i want to watch anything at all.
I wonder how succesfull Spotify would be, if the non-paying members would get 64k quality of music....
Having the quality on 'medium' is low enough. High end users (like me) can't even watch movies if its less than 1080p. So if i want to watch high quality I would buy it anyways, since 420p already hurts my eyes. but this.. this is just unwatchable....
On January 15 2015 23:53 var username wrote: Emotion has little to do with what a rational consumer is to choose.
Weird point because the sole reason to pay for any eSports thing is emotionally. There's no rational justification for watching 2 people play a video games against each other.
I shall rephrase that sentence, because English is not your first language. It simply means that when making decisions, a rational consumer is not to rely on emotion. Utility derived from watching eSports can be argued to be based on the emotional connection to the players and the game, but when making judgement calls, only the quantified utility counts.
An example: a game played between two players where one is given a principal sum of money, say $500, and can choose to split any amount with the opponent. The opponent can choose to accept the split or reject, in which case both players will not get any money.
Rationally, the receiving player should accept any amount, even $0, because his utility in that case remains the same as in the case where he had never played this game at all - he is thus indifferent to the two outcomes.
But we know that there is pride and emotion involved, and as such the receiving player will reject a low split just to spite the player who decides the split.
For more details, please refer to any crash course in consumer theory. I believe my prose is long enough.
Lastly, don't you find arguing on semantics alone deeply boring and non-constructive? There was no value added to the discussion at all.
On January 15 2015 17:45 xM(Z wrote: 15$ is around 5% of a monthly paycheck ... go pirates!
You are making $300 a month? Just $75 a week? Only $15 a day? How sad. On the bright side, the subscription covers roughly three months so that averages it down to under 2% each month.
but, but, my kids ... be left with no bread'n shit.
so now, let me help you. what you should've taken from that post is that the fee doesn't have the same weight for all people; acknowledge it and move the fuck on. don't rag on the little people. moving on now - practically, it's not 2% per month, per 30 days, but 2% for about 4 - 5 days but w/e.
Sure, don't rag on them, but at the end of the day, this isn't a communist enterprise. It doesn't have to be made free to them. The vast majority of people can't have everything they want. That's life.
On January 16 2015 02:00 FiWiFaKi wrote: Well I dunno, I do find it weird that hardly any event is 1080p for free in SC2, as every single event as far as I can tell in Dota 2 is free.
You kind of answered your own question when you suggested alternative methods to monetise. The other major issue is a pure numbers comparison. There's just shitloads more eyeballs on dota and lol. It makes the free w/ ads model much more viable.
On January 15 2015 12:00 ilikeredheads wrote: Sc2 is in a decline and having this restrictive barrier to their premiere tournament is just moronic.
And does it matter to you that this "restrictive barrier" wasn't around all of 2014 when the decline was occurring? Richard Lewis was certain GOM wouldn't even be around this year so arguments that this will just make the decline go faster shouldn't be that persuasive.
Yeah, I think people are in a little bit of denial when it comes to a) the state of the game in reality vs what they'd like it to be, and b) the real causes for the decline in the game's popularity.
Hot tip guys: one low quality stream is not the reason the viewer base has dropped away so much. Changing GOM's position also wont 'save' Starcraft!
I haven't subbed btw (twitch sucks donkey dick and the vod system is shit, so I'll watch low qual for free until they make it worth the money I'd be willing to spend), I just think the whining is completely disproportionate.
On January 15 2015 17:45 xM(Z wrote: 15$ is around 5% of a monthly paycheck ... go pirates!
You are making $300 a month? Just $75 a week? Only $15 a day? How sad. On the bright side, the subscription covers roughly three months so that averages it down to under 2% each month.
but, but, my kids ... be left with no bread'n shit.
so now, let me help you. what you should've taken from that post is that the fee doesn't have the same weight for all people; acknowledge it and move the fuck on. don't rag on the little people. moving on now - practically, it's not 2% per month, per 30 days, but 2% for about 4 - 5 days but w/e.
this is exactly why high Gini coefficients are the fact of life. the reproachable, condescending attitude on the low-income on full display here is sufficient evidence.
then again, it's perfectly acceptable since the low-income shouldn't even be here on the Internet in the first place, right? /s
EDIT: no, I'm not advocating for GOM to make stuff free. go read my first post in this thread. exhibiting superiority over the poor is just uncalled for.
On January 15 2015 17:45 xM(Z wrote: 15$ is around 5% of a monthly paycheck ... go pirates!
You are making $300 a month? Just $75 a week? Only $15 a day? How sad. On the bright side, the subscription covers roughly three months so that averages it down to under 2% each month.
but, but, my kids ... be left with no bread'n shit.
so now, let me help you. what you should've taken from that post is that the fee doesn't have the same weight for all people; acknowledge it and move the fuck on. don't rag on the little people. moving on now - practically, it's not 2% per month, per 30 days, but 2% for about 4 - 5 days but w/e.
this is exactly why high Gini coefficients are the fact of life. the reproachable, condescending attitude on the low-income on full display here is sufficient evidence.
then again, it's perfectly acceptable since the low-income shouldn't even be here on the Internet in the first place, right? /s
I don't think people missing out on the ability to watch one SC2 stream in high quality for free is the appropriate vehicle for the argument you're making, bud.
Re: your edit, it doesn't matter. You can't divorce your comment from the rest of the thread where the 'poor' people are indeed asking for the stream to be free.
Like I said above, sure don't rag on them for their financial position, but they can be called out for unreasonable expectations. We're not talking about necessities here.
OK so I was going to get the subscription because vods on source are how I'm probably going to get to watch half the games anyway. Then I see that to "unlock" source quality costs $24 not $14. What the hell? I feel like I've been mislead here and out of principle I won't spend anything now. It seems so arrogant on their behalf.
complaining about a free stream that costs a ton of money to produce being low quality is like complaining about the size of a sample spoon at an ice cream shop
I'll watch it on my phone whatever, but fix your vods GOM. SSL and SPL have ALL MATCHES vods fast for free. As a past gom subscriber, why would I choose to go with you again? Oh right Tastetosis....Bah
Its ok though, moonglade has the best hair in esports, all is well
On January 09 2015 19:08 Bojas wrote: Pretty sure it's below 480p. It's like the old days before WCS, where perhaps a game could have been going on behind all the blur.
The videostream is:
640x360 (=360p) 550kbps bitrate.
So indeed, lower than 480p.
On January 16 2015 20:28 Brett wrote:
Hot tip guys: one low quality stream is not the reason the viewer base has dropped away so much.
2014 had more average viewers and more total prize money, than any previous years had. I'm not sure what you're on about but I'd love for you to back-up your doomsaying claims. Or are you just trolling? :o
On January 15 2015 06:11 varsovie wrote: Worse is the korean stream is 1080 for free. You can literally mute it and play the crappy "free english" in the background if you really want to listen the commentators talking about anything but starcraft.
Do you think Gom and Tastosis are rolling around in money?
The reason the Korean stream is free is because every single add they run on their program is Korean and only caters to a Korean audience and it's those sponsors that keep them alive.
They make almost nil profit off non-paying foreign viewers and that's the primary reason they need people to actually pay for their content. They need to run a business and the people who've been leeching for years just don't seem to care for some reason.
On January 16 2015 23:53 LordSubtle wrote: I'll watch it on my phone whatever, but fix your vods GOM. SSL and SPL have ALL MATCHES vods fast for free. As a past gom subscriber, why would I choose to go with you again? Oh right Tastetosis....Bah
Its ok though, moonglade has the best hair in esports, all is well
Actually Tastosis are the only reason I still watch Starcraft 2. The months of PvP and PvP again and then PvP... oh yeah sometimes there was PvZ or ZvZ... well it made the game so uninteresting to watch and still it is way too versatile when Protoss is in it. Either they win with cheese or allin or just have that one lucky engagement. The few games you see a TvP or PvZ go back and forth and back again... are just not there anymore. I just tune in because I like to listen to the extremely stupid but funny comments of the 2.
On January 16 2015 23:53 LordSubtle wrote: I'll watch it on my phone whatever, but fix your vods GOM. SSL and SPL have ALL MATCHES vods fast for free. As a past gom subscriber, why would I choose to go with you again? Oh right Tastetosis....Bah
Its ok though, moonglade has the best hair in esports, all is well
Actually Tastosis are the only reason I still watch Starcraft 2. The months of PvP and PvP again and then PvP... oh yeah sometimes there was PvZ or ZvZ... well it made the game so uninteresting to watch and still it is way too versatile when Protoss is in it. Either they win with cheese or allin or just have that one lucky engagement. The few games you see a TvP or PvZ go back and forth and back again... are just not there anymore. I just tune in because I like to listen to the extremely stupid but funny comments of the 2.
On January 15 2015 17:45 xM(Z wrote: 15$ is around 5% of a monthly paycheck ... go pirates!
You are making $300 a month? Just $75 a week? Only $15 a day? How sad. On the bright side, the subscription covers roughly three months so that averages it down to under 2% each month.
but, but, my kids ... be left with no bread'n shit.
so now, let me help you. what you should've taken from that post is that the fee doesn't have the same weight for all people; acknowledge it and move the fuck on. don't rag on the little people. moving on now - practically, it's not 2% per month, per 30 days, but 2% for about 4 - 5 days but w/e.
this is exactly why high Gini coefficients are the fact of life. the reproachable, condescending attitude on the low-income on full display here is sufficient evidence.
then again, it's perfectly acceptable since the low-income shouldn't even be here on the Internet in the first place, right? /s
I don't think people missing out on the ability to watch one SC2 stream in high quality for free is the appropriate vehicle for the argument you're making, bud.
Re: your edit, it doesn't matter. You can't divorce your comment from the rest of the thread where the 'poor' people are indeed asking for the stream to be free.
Like I said above, sure don't rag on them for their financial position, but they can be called out for unreasonable expectations. We're not talking about necessities here.
you're just trying to be politically correct while giving the middle finger to the poor guy+ Show Spoiler +
WE SEE YOU DUDE!, be afraid, be very afraid.
. there is no objective reasoning/logic that allows you to demand a non-bitching attitude from anyone because it was GOM that changed things. you could maybe get away with a 'no demands' policy(from the plebs) because ... capitalism ... democracy ...free market or whatever, but that's all you can have here. Ex: + Show Spoiler +
it's like this: you give a lollypop to a kid, let him suck it for a while then take it away. now, for him, it doesn't even matter if you stole it, if you only payed for half of it or if you want to pass it on to your other kids. he did nothing wrong but is one lollypop short; of course he is gonna bitch. he would've been better if you didn't gave him that lpop to begin with so there, it's GOMs fault anyway for creating the demand in the first place.
Edit:to make (more)clear(er): you just don't bring someone out of his ignorance for free then charge him for no longer being an ignorant...
I used to pay for GOMTV when they had their own website with a good video player and a good non-spoiler VOD system. I paid the max amount to get high quality and no ads. Then they switched to Twitch and as you all know, they don't have a non-spoiler VOD system. Hell, you're lucky to even figure out what VOD has what game. Luckily some third party sites have shown up to help with that but now there is a paywall.
Why should I pay for a shitty VOD system? Yes, these are some of the best games anywhere in the world. Yes, Tastosis is a great casting duo. But now you have S2SL and PL which are free to watch. You didn't have those back when GOMTV ruled the world. It was worth paying for because nothing came close to it. Now it just doesn't make any sense to pay for it. It's sad because a lot of people will never get to see the great games they'll have this season and the seasons to come.
Do you think Gom and Tastosis are rolling around in money?
The reason the Korean stream is free is because every single add they run on their program is Korean and only caters to a Korean audience and it's those sponsors that keep them alive.
They make almost nil profit off non-paying foreign viewers and that's the primary reason they need people to actually pay for their content. They need to run a business and the people who've been leeching for years just don't seem to care for some reason.
How do you know how much money they make? What if they break even by only showing ads on Twitch and the $14/season or $24/season is all profit? Do they really need to charge that much? Those of us who want to watch GSL but can't justify paying that much are conflicted. It's not entitlement. I could afford to pay for it. But I'm choosing not to because I think it's too much. That is a decision each of us have to make. But that doesn't mean we can't come here and give our opinions on the matter. Maybe GOM is reading this, maybe they aren't. I've also sent my thoughts to them via their website and Twitch account. No response.
Do you think Gom and Tastosis are rolling around in money?
The reason the Korean stream is free is because every single add they run on their program is Korean and only caters to a Korean audience and it's those sponsors that keep them alive.
They make almost nil profit off non-paying foreign viewers and that's the primary reason they need people to actually pay for their content. They need to run a business and the people who've been leeching for years just don't seem to care for some reason.
How do you know how much money they make? What if they break even by only showing ads on Twitch and the $14/season or $24/season is all profit? Do they really need to charge that much? Those of us who want to watch GSL but can't justify paying that much are conflicted. It's not entitlement. I could afford to pay for it. But I'm choosing not to because I think it's too much. That is a decision each of us have to make. But that doesn't mean we can't come here and give our opinions on the matter. Maybe GOM is reading this, maybe they aren't. I've also sent my thoughts to them via their website and Twitch account. No response.
You think they can cover their cost from ad revenue they get from twitch? Seriously?
The thing is, youtube and twitch are not their infrastructure. The main cost for the english stream are the casters. I would be totally fine if they vanish behind a paywall forever and, without any additional costs for gom, I'd like the korean feed.
On January 17 2015 04:22 HaRuHi wrote: The thing is, youtube and twitch are not their infrastructure. The main cost for the english stream are the casters. I would be totally fine if they vanish behind a paywall forever and, without any additional costs for gom, I'd like the korean feed.
Agreed, what I don't like is that we cannot watch the Korean stream without some trickery.
To be fair, there is so much starcraft 2 being broadcasted these days I can barely keep up watching proleague, ssl, spl, wcs eu/na and random tournaments.
Consider gsl a bonus, either you don't watch it or you pay the 14/24 dollar per season for it (2015 has 3 gsl seasons).
What is even the purpose of this (flame) thread? Nobody cares someone rather watches his free dota, cs:go shit.
On January 17 2015 07:13 anessie wrote: What is even the purpose of this (flame) thread? Nobody cares someone rather watches his free dota, cs:go shit.
"Nobody cares" that I'll be watching SSL instead of Code S? And you speak for GSL's sponsors when you say this, do you?
On January 17 2015 07:58 pure.Wasted wrote: "Nobody cares" that I'll be watching SSL instead of Code S? And you speak for GSL's sponsors when you say this, do you?
Seemed to me people here established that gsl management doesn't really care about exposure of the sponsors for the English broadcast. I wouldn't even know who these sponsors are. In the "breaks" it's still the aged Asus & Corsair clips which date back to 2013.
f you want a serious discussion then let's discuss how TotalBiscuits pulls more viewers on his LotV tournament than GSL on a stacked day.
because I offer free 720p, prompt spoiler-free vods and dont air in an awful timeslot for foreign viewers?
And how do you make money?
He likely doesn't off the tournament. If he does I can't imagine it's a lot. I think for TB in some cases it's more-so just about supporting the Scene and getting some extra exposure.
Of course that's just speculation. I imagine he'll answer himself
f you want a serious discussion then let's discuss how TotalBiscuits pulls more viewers on his LotV tournament than GSL on a stacked day.
because I offer free 720p, prompt spoiler-free vods and dont air in an awful timeslot for foreign viewers?
Basically I agree with the last point, I'm not exactly sure how VODs influence live viewers but you are the expert. If anything I'd say that a horrible VOD system encourages live viewers, does it not? Since people have the mentality of "Oh hey, I need to catch this live, otherwise I'll never be able to watch it!" - that would be my assumption at least.
But yeah, the fact that GSL streams at noon for EU and early in the morning for US timezones does a lot for their viewernumbers, and not in a positive way.
The point I was trying to bring across asking this particular question is: GSL is a team of many people, with a rented/built studio and everything. Their english production consists of Tasteless, Artosis other casters(that all have living expenses!) and a view other staff members,a view extra cameras and all that. So it's not exactly free either.
Yet, in the english stream, to finance that, they have around 15k viewers a view hours every week and that does not seem that much.
Just to make that clear: I think that it's silly from Blizzard to have rules for WCS Global Events, but not Leagues, and I still think it sucks for both, the viewers and GSL itself, to have medium behind a paywall. But this feels to me like a decision someone in a suit made saying "There's not enough money. Get more money!" and thats practically their only way instead of increasing season prices.
f you want a serious discussion then let's discuss how TotalBiscuits pulls more viewers on his LotV tournament than GSL on a stacked day.
because I offer free 720p, prompt spoiler-free vods and dont air in an awful timeslot for foreign viewers?
Basically I agree with the last point, I'm not exactly sure how VODs influence live viewers but you are the expert. If anything I'd say that a horrible VOD system encourages live viewers, does it not? Since people have the mentality of "Oh hey, I need to catch this live, otherwise I'll never be able to watch it!" - that would be my assumption at least.
But yeah, the fact that GSL streams at noon for EU and early in the morning for US timezones does a lot for their viewernumbers, and not in a positive way.
The point I was trying to bring across asking this particular question is: GSL is a team of many people, with a rented/built studio and everything. Their english production consists of Tasteless, Artosis other casters(that all have living expenses!) and a view other staff members,a view extra cameras and all that. So it's not exactly free either.
Yet, in the english stream, to finance that, they have around 15k viewers a view hours every week and that does not seem that much.
Just to make that clear: I think that it's silly from Blizzard to have rules for WCS Global Events, but not Leagues, and I still think it sucks for both, the viewers and GSL itself, to have medium behind a paywall. But this feels to me like a decision someone in a suit made saying "There's not enough money. Get more money!" and thats practically their only way instead of increasing season prices.
The problem with GSL is they have burned most of their goodwill from the early days and have lost their position as the only place to watch top Korean talent. Back in 2010-11, you had the same shitty stream, but you had a subscription that got you SICK quality, a great VoD system and an awesome website. Not only that but it was the only place to watch the best of the best and the only place to watch an actual instudio event with real production behind it. Outside of that, you got to watch mostly foreigners fighting in online events with terribad production or in the occasional live event. The instudio experience for GOM was completely different, it was a premium product worth paying for.
Now it's not unique. It's competing with Proleague and Starleague and that's just on the Korean side. Instudio stuff for WCS has become very common and groups like ESL have got very good at it, better than GSL in some ways. They took away the website and replaced it with Twitch, which just flat out isnt as good (especially for VoDs oh lord). Worse still, while in the old days this was the only place to watch top Korean talent, now even people like me can do tournaments which successfully invite the best. Koreans have gone global and GSL has been left behind. They've cut their production value in the meantime, leaving us with a product which is just not as desirable anymore.
What's the solution? I don't know. I think without further Blizzard help GSL is probably doomed, unless LOTV explodes in Korea. Its possible they could add enough value to get people to sub again but lost confidence is very hard to rebuild and there are other tournaments which are as good as GSL now and dont charge you through the nose to be able to watch it without burning your eyes out in glorious cinematic 240p or whatever the hell blurfest they stream in now. They'd have to offer something premium.
What I would do if I were GSL
1) Offer a 1080p60 stream for season pass holders 2) Offer FP-views for both players 3) Set up your site to allow people to watch all 3 at once. 4) Run a small number of premium only showmatchs or events such as 2v2s. 5) Offer subscription holders entries to giveaways, featuring signed merch from players 6) A subscriber only pre-show, featuring interviews with players, coachs and casters. 7) Fantasy GSL for subscribers, complete with prizes for the winners. 8) Translated Korean cast highlights of the most hype moments 9) Move VoDs back to the site and make absolutely 100% sure they are promptly uploaded and spoiler free. 10) "GSL Offtime" - A lighthearted show where players take part in silly events such as a Zoozoobubble tournament.
Just a few ideas. If GSL is to survive with this business model they must present a premium product. Currently they do not. The kind of people willing to pay that sort of money for GSL are the kind of people who are enthusiasts. Give them enthusiast-level content and they will come. In the meantime however, don't punish people for not subscribing. That level of quality is unwatchable. Even 480p should look better than that.
1) Offer a 1080p60 stream for season pass holders 2) Offer FP-views for both players 3) Set up your site to allow people to watch all 3 at once. 4) Run a small number of premium only showmatchs or events such as 2v2s. 5) Offer subscription holders entries to giveaways, featuring signed merch from players 6) A subscriber only pre-show, featuring interviews with players, coachs and casters. 7) Fantasy GSL for subscribers, complete with prizes for the winners. 8) Translated Korean cast highlights of the most hype moments 9) Move VoDs back to the site and make absolutely 100% sure they are promptly uploaded and spoiler free.
Just a few ideas. If GSL is to survive with this business model they must present a premium product. Currently they do not. The kind of people willing to pay that sort of money for GSL are the kind of people who are enthusiasts. Give them enthusiast-level content and they will come. In the meantime however, don't punish people for not subscribing. That level of quality is unwatchable. Even 480p should look better than that.
(Sorry that I quote only that part now, I think the rest what you wrote is pretty clear cut and nothing to argue about it. I agree on most points, although I personally still trust GSL more than PL/OGN on SC2.)
Would you say that moving to Twitch was a bad move for them? It seems like they don't do most things like that because it requires a lot of work on Twitch's side that they necessarily can't do anything about. Setting up 3 streams on Twitch is easy, but linking them so that 1 subscription enables all 3 in high quality is something else and they'd have to rely on Twitch for that.
Just in general I think that the stuff they have done without Twitch was much better than Twitch itself. Even the horrible GOM player was running once you have managed to install it properly.
I also think that a lot of what you suggested is great, but an investment. And they might not be able to justify that to those with the money.
On January 09 2015 19:08 Bojas wrote: Pretty sure it's below 480p. It's like the old days before WCS, where perhaps a game could have been going on behind all the blur.
Hot tip guys: one low quality stream is not the reason the viewer base has dropped away so much.
2014 had more average viewers and more total prize money, than any previous years had. I'm not sure what you're on about but I'd love for you to back-up your doomsaying claims. Or are you just trolling? :o
2014 did not have more viewers than sc2's heyday. 2010-2 were pretty huge years. This isn't a controversial claim lol...
There may have been more prize money last year, I've not done any sort of comparison.
I wish TotalBiscuit was running the GSL , hell the entire universe in fact. Until that happens I feel somewhat guilty for subscribing to GSL again. The production is not where it should be for the money - mostly thinking about the sh1tty VOD system that Twitch uses - and maybe subscribing does not encourage them to fix things but the nostalgia for the old Code S days is still strong in me.
TBH my subscriptions are mostly to show my support for SC2. Being so busy with other things I may not even get to watch any of the games I have subscribed to.
I feel like GSL is spending its street cred way too fast... I feel like if they had someone who wasn't an uninspired bean-counter making these decisions, they'd figure out how to get the revenue they want while getting fans excited. One problem at this point is that it feels like going back to lower quality is fans being punished, and subscribing is not an exciting thing to do. This is part of the real issue, and TotalBiscuit's suggestions above really seem to highlight that. It is just not exciting to subscribe to the GSL. It feels like giving in to demands, not doing something fun. I feel bad for GOM: they really have no idea how to get this stuff right for English-speaking viewers and never have, and now that NSSL is going, everyone can see (more or less) the same players in basically the same format playing the same quality games, with a much better quality streaming service.
FP views for both players would really hurt the players, I think. that's the only thing I would watch but that would be way too detrimental to the players themselves.
Best thing to do for GSL, in my opinion, is give Tastosis a PC to observe the game directly.
Have the English stream have foreigner-oriented sponsors (as an overlay or something), the GSL is strong enough to attract those kinds of sponsors, I believe.
Back to a proper VOD system. Reduce cost of subscription.
Increasing stream quality for "free" viewers.
They basically need to give the foreigner viewers a bit more attention.
On January 09 2015 19:08 Bojas wrote: Pretty sure it's below 480p. It's like the old days before WCS, where perhaps a game could have been going on behind all the blur.
The videostream is:
640x360 (=360p) 550kbps bitrate.
So indeed, lower than 480p.
On January 16 2015 20:28 Brett wrote:
Hot tip guys: one low quality stream is not the reason the viewer base has dropped away so much.
2014 had more average viewers and more total prize money, than any previous years had. I'm not sure what you're on about but I'd love for you to back-up your doomsaying claims. Or are you just trolling? :o
2014 did not have more viewers than sc2's heyday. 2010-2 were pretty huge years. This isn't a controversial claim lol...
There may have been more prize money last year, I've not done any sort of comparison.
Maybe GSL didn't have more viewers, but overall, with the first person streams and all the other tournaments every week I would say that there are more viewers than ever. I don't think that any player had 2000 viewers on his stream almost every day in 2012. And a small channel like BaseTradeTV with 5000 viewers+ for all their casts didn't exist too. There was only GSL. Because that's not the case anymore, but they are the only ones with such horrific stream conditions if you're no subscriber, everyone is complaining. With every right to, imo. Why watch something for $15 when you get it for free almost any other week...
It amazes me the number of people defending GOM with the "stop being cheap and pay up" argument when they are doing is basically screwing foreign viewers. GOM has competition that offers a product that is just as good if not, better. and yet they still continue to cling to their draconian model.
The saddest part of all this is Blizzard's continuous silence on this matter. It pretty shows they just don't care. But then, if they did say something, it'll probably be the same PR bullshit along the lines of "we continue to listen to your feedback and they will be brought into our internal discusssions..blah blah blah.."
On January 09 2015 19:08 Bojas wrote: Pretty sure it's below 480p. It's like the old days before WCS, where perhaps a game could have been going on behind all the blur.
The videostream is:
640x360 (=360p) 550kbps bitrate.
So indeed, lower than 480p.
On January 16 2015 20:28 Brett wrote:
Hot tip guys: one low quality stream is not the reason the viewer base has dropped away so much.
2014 had more average viewers and more total prize money, than any previous years had. I'm not sure what you're on about but I'd love for you to back-up your doomsaying claims. Or are you just trolling? :o
2014 did not have more viewers than sc2's heyday. 2010-2 were pretty huge years. This isn't a controversial claim lol...
There may have been more prize money last year, I've not done any sort of comparison.
Maybe GSL didn't have more viewers, but overall, with the first person streams and all the other tournaments every week I would say that there are more viewers than ever. I don't think that any player had 2000 viewers on his stream almost every day in 2012. And a small channel like BaseTradeTV with 5000 viewers+ for all their casts didn't exist too. There was only GSL. Because that's not the case anymore, but they are the only ones with such horrific stream conditions if you're no subscriber, everyone is complaining. With every right to, imo. Why watch something for $15 when you get it for free almost any other week...
I'm not 'doom saying' at all, but let's get real here... There has been a decline.
These are the first two examples I found via searching/googling. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if I checked other tournaments they'd mostly show a similar downward trend on the whole.
Plus articles by prominent community members speaking about the decline and what can be done. It's not a massive issue tbh. The only reason I made the original comment about viewership is that some people are saying in this thread that the decline is because of GOM's decision re: subs, which is just ridiculous.
On January 15 2015 17:45 xM(Z wrote: 15$ is around 5% of a monthly paycheck ... go pirates!
You are making $300 a month? Just $75 a week? Only $15 a day? How sad. On the bright side, the subscription covers roughly three months so that averages it down to under 2% each month.
but, but, my kids ... be left with no bread'n shit.
so now, let me help you. what you should've taken from that post is that the fee doesn't have the same weight for all people; acknowledge it and move the fuck on. don't rag on the little people. moving on now - practically, it's not 2% per month, per 30 days, but 2% for about 4 - 5 days but w/e.
this is exactly why high Gini coefficients are the fact of life. the reproachable, condescending attitude on the low-income on full display here is sufficient evidence.
then again, it's perfectly acceptable since the low-income shouldn't even be here on the Internet in the first place, right? /s
I don't think people missing out on the ability to watch one SC2 stream in high quality for free is the appropriate vehicle for the argument you're making, bud.
Re: your edit, it doesn't matter. You can't divorce your comment from the rest of the thread where the 'poor' people are indeed asking for the stream to be free.
Like I said above, sure don't rag on them for their financial position, but they can be called out for unreasonable expectations. We're not talking about necessities here.
you're just trying to be politically correct while giving the middle finger to the poor guy+ Show Spoiler +
WE SEE YOU DUDE!, be afraid, be very afraid.
. there is no objective reasoning/logic that allows you to demand a non-bitching attitude from anyone because it was GOM that changed things. you could maybe get away with a 'no demands' policy(from the plebs) because ... capitalism ... democracy ...free market or whatever, but that's all you can have here. Ex: + Show Spoiler +
it's like this: you give a lollypop to a kid, let him suck it for a while then take it away. now, for him, it doesn't even matter if you stole it, if you only payed for half of it or if you want to pass it on to your other kids. he did nothing wrong but is one lollypop short; of course he is gonna bitch. he would've been better if you didn't gave him that lpop to begin with so there, it's GOMs fault anyway for creating the demand in the first place.
Edit:to make (more)clear(er): you just don't bring someone out of his ignorance for free then charge him for no longer being an ignorant...
Which is it? There's no reasoning for my position or I could maybe get away with 'capitalism... free market...' ? That's exactly my point. It is a free market. Welcome to the real world. Make your choices and get on with it. The lollipop example is pretty useless to be honest, e.g. *in the real world, the 'Kid' was lucky to have 'sucked on the lollipop' at all, *most viewers of SC2 are not 5 year olds and shouldn't act as such, *you could argue the kid finished his lollipop and is now demanding another one for free etc etc etc.
I don't see an issue with calling out such behaviour whilst choosing not to be a mean fuck about their (lack of) financial means?
On January 15 2015 17:45 xM(Z wrote: 15$ is around 5% of a monthly paycheck ... go pirates!
You are making $300 a month? Just $75 a week? Only $15 a day? How sad. On the bright side, the subscription covers roughly three months so that averages it down to under 2% each month.
but, but, my kids ... be left with no bread'n shit.
so now, let me help you. what you should've taken from that post is that the fee doesn't have the same weight for all people; acknowledge it and move the fuck on. don't rag on the little people. moving on now - practically, it's not 2% per month, per 30 days, but 2% for about 4 - 5 days but w/e.
this is exactly why high Gini coefficients are the fact of life. the reproachable, condescending attitude on the low-income on full display here is sufficient evidence.
then again, it's perfectly acceptable since the low-income shouldn't even be here on the Internet in the first place, right? /s
I don't think people missing out on the ability to watch one SC2 stream in high quality for free is the appropriate vehicle for the argument you're making, bud.
Re: your edit, it doesn't matter. You can't divorce your comment from the rest of the thread where the 'poor' people are indeed asking for the stream to be free.
Like I said above, sure don't rag on them for their financial position, but they can be called out for unreasonable expectations. We're not talking about necessities here.
you're just trying to be politically correct while giving the middle finger to the poor guy+ Show Spoiler +
WE SEE YOU DUDE!, be afraid, be very afraid.
. there is no objective reasoning/logic that allows you to demand a non-bitching attitude from anyone because it was GOM that changed things. you could maybe get away with a 'no demands' policy(from the plebs) because ... capitalism ... democracy ...free market or whatever, but that's all you can have here. Ex: + Show Spoiler +
it's like this: you give a lollypop to a kid, let him suck it for a while then take it away. now, for him, it doesn't even matter if you stole it, if you only payed for half of it or if you want to pass it on to your other kids. he did nothing wrong but is one lollypop short; of course he is gonna bitch. he would've been better if you didn't gave him that lpop to begin with so there, it's GOMs fault anyway for creating the demand in the first place.
Edit:to make (more)clear(er): you just don't bring someone out of his ignorance for free then charge him for no longer being an ignorant...
Which is it? There's no reasoning for my position or I could maybe get away with 'capitalism... free market...' ? That's exactly my point. It is a free market. Welcome to the real world. Make your choices and get on with it. The lollipop example is pretty useless to be honest, e.g. *in the real world, the 'Kid' was lucky to have 'sucked on the lollipop' at all, *most viewers of SC2 are not 5 year olds and shouldn't act as such, *you could argue the kid finished his lollipop and is now demanding another one for free etc etc etc.
I don't see an issue with calling out such behaviour whilst choosing not to be a mean fuck about their (lack of) financial means?
You guys are arguing about pointless topics. The main reason people are having issues with Gom's decision, is that every other Esport organization on twitch is providing free med to high quality, while having around 10x the viewership than Starcraft 2.
Has nothing to do with people unable to pay or not wanting to, it's just bad business to do what Gom is doing in the long run. Gom no longer provides premium content since they came to twitch. GOM is making money off a quick cash grab with quick subs.
Gom's payment system is pretty bad, they charge for "high" separate from "source" quality. With Starcraft 2 viewership going down, this is not a good paywall system to increase viewership.
We want starcraft 2 to gain viewership and be successful, Gom's model is a terrible way to achieve that goal IMO.
On January 18 2015 10:00 LingBlingBling wrote: We want starcraft 2 to gain viewership and be successful, Gom's model is a terrible way to achieve that goal IMO.
Did anyone disagree on that the previous 31 pages?
On January 18 2015 10:00 LingBlingBling wrote: We want starcraft 2 to gain viewership and be successful, Gom's model is a terrible way to achieve that goal IMO.
Did anyone disagree on that the previous 31 pages?
On January 18 2015 10:00 LingBlingBling wrote: We want starcraft 2 to gain viewership and be successful, Gom's model is a terrible way to achieve that goal IMO.
Did anyone disagree on that the previous 31 pages?
A lot of people in fact. - not me
Those who have accepted that SC2 isn't going to gain any viewers just because GOM offers free HD. "Hey, get off work, watch this Swarm Host vs Mech game with me! What do you mean it's boring? BUT THEY HAVE FREE HD!!!"
Sorry to be cynical about it, but if you are really just worried about SC2 viewership, I've got bad news for you:
GOM is the problem, I agree. If I want to introduce a friend I'll show him the highest level of play - this happens in every sport. What will he say when you can barely understand what is going on? I think he would ask 'how comes LOL proleague is free at source quality?'
On January 19 2015 17:21 y0su wrote: my main issue is that wcs events require 720p or better. gsl is giving out wcs points and should not be permitted by blizzard to loophole this rule.
WHERE is the textbook that WCS NA/EU and GSL/SSL requires 720p for free? OP textbook isn't.
On January 18 2015 10:00 LingBlingBling wrote: We want starcraft 2 to gain viewership and be successful, Gom's model is a terrible way to achieve that goal IMO.
Did anyone disagree on that the previous 31 pages?
On January 18 2015 10:00 LingBlingBling wrote: We want starcraft 2 to gain viewership and be successful, Gom's model is a terrible way to achieve that goal IMO.
Did anyone disagree on that the previous 31 pages?
A lot of people in fact. - not me
and by a lot of people he mean keksx.
To be fair: He posted in this thread A LOT
On January 23 2015 20:23 Lumi wrote: I vote to rename low quality evil quality.
On January 23 2015 19:54 SoSexy wrote: GOM is the problem, I agree. If I want to introduce a friend I'll show him the highest level of play - this happens in every sport. What will he say when you can barely understand what is going on? I think he would ask 'how comes LOL proleague is free at source quality?'
Proleague is free at high on twitch and source on azubu. It's just gom that is low
On January 19 2015 17:21 y0su wrote: my main issue is that wcs events require 720p or better. gsl is giving out wcs points and should not be permitted by blizzard to loophole this rule.
Blizzard allows GSL to have a paywall since 2014. GSL has free 720p in 2013 iirc, I imagine gom pushed Blizzard to allow them having a different business model.
On January 23 2015 19:54 SoSexy wrote: GOM is the problem, I agree. If I want to introduce a friend I'll show him the highest level of play - this happens in every sport. What will he say when you can barely understand what is going on? I think he would ask 'how comes LOL proleague is free at source quality?'
Proleague is free at high on twitch and source on azubu. It's just gom that is low
On January 23 2015 19:54 SoSexy wrote: GOM is the problem, I agree. If I want to introduce a friend I'll show him the highest level of play - this happens in every sport. What will he say when you can barely understand what is going on? I think he would ask 'how comes LOL proleague is free at source quality?'
Precisely. It is Blizzard's product GOM is presenting. As of now, that product looks like complete shit. It hurts the SC2 brand, so it is difficult to understand why Blizzard would allow it.
On January 23 2015 19:54 SoSexy wrote: GOM is the problem, I agree. If I want to introduce a friend I'll show him the highest level of play - this happens in every sport. What will he say when you can barely understand what is going on? I think he would ask 'how comes LOL proleague is free at source quality?'
Proleague is free at high on twitch and source on azubu. It's just gom that is low
I was making a comparison between two high quality tournaments, I'm sure you got my point.
On January 23 2015 19:54 SoSexy wrote: GOM is the problem, I agree. If I want to introduce a friend I'll show him the highest level of play - this happens in every sport. What will he say when you can barely understand what is going on? I think he would ask 'how comes LOL proleague is free at source quality?'
Proleague is free at high on twitch and source on azubu. It's just gom that is low
I was making a comparison between two high quality tournaments, I'm sure you got my point.
I'm just saying that you could instead just show them Proleague or Starleague as in introduction instead of GSL. That's what I would do if I had any friends
On January 23 2015 19:54 SoSexy wrote: GOM is the problem, I agree. If I want to introduce a friend I'll show him the highest level of play - this happens in every sport. What will he say when you can barely understand what is going on? I think he would ask 'how comes LOL proleague is free at source quality?'
Proleague is free at high on twitch and source on azubu. It's just gom that is low
I was making a comparison between two high quality tournaments, I'm sure you got my point.
I'm just saying that you could instead just show them Proleague or Starleague as in introduction instead of GSL. That's what I would do if I had any friends
Good choice. If you show them GSL and passionately talk about how good it is. I doubt you'll have friends any more. Nobody likes mad people.
On January 23 2015 19:40 alphaboss wrote: GOM is definitely the problem.
You think GOM is the reason for low SC2 viewership? Seriously?
On January 18 2015 10:00 LingBlingBling wrote: You guys are arguing about pointless topics. The main reason people are having issues with Gom's decision, is that every other Esport organization on twitch is providing free med to high quality, while having around 10x the viewership than Starcraft 2.
The fact that they have 10x the viewership is EXACTLY the reason why they have free HD!
It's much more easier to find sponsors that pay for your shit when you have 100k people on average watching your stream. GOM is barely scratching 20k sometimes on their high production stream. You think thats comparable?
On January 18 2015 10:00 LingBlingBling wrote: We want starcraft 2 to gain viewership and be successful, Gom's model is a terrible way to achieve that goal IMO.
Did anyone disagree on that the previous 31 pages?
A lot of people in fact. - not me
and by a lot of people he mean keksx.
I'm as annoyed about non-free high quality stream as you are, I'm just realizing that things aren't as sweet as they were before. I'm realizing that in SC2 there's not going to be a huge growth of viewership anymore except for LotV maybe. I don't care about being the "big boy" in eSports. I just want to watch good SC2 and if for some leagues that means they have to have an annoying paywall, then so be it.
And finally, I realize that GOM is not the reason that SC2 viewership is dropping(if you honestly think that, then man I got no hope for you).
Its too bad GSL is on at such shitty times for NA. I wonder what kind of viewership GSL would have if it was on at like 8pm EST. Maybe enough extra viewers that HD gets free again?
On January 23 2015 22:04 Orcasgt24 wrote: Its too bad GSL is on at such shitty times for NA. I wonder what kind of viewership GSL would have if it was on at like 8pm EST. Maybe enough extra viewers that HD gets free again?
I think between 40k and 60k would be average if it was on peak USA times, there was around 25k peak last night.
On January 23 2015 22:04 Orcasgt24 wrote: Its too bad GSL is on at such shitty times for NA. I wonder what kind of viewership GSL would have if it was on at like 8pm EST. Maybe enough extra viewers that HD gets free again?
I think between 40k and 60k would be average if it was on peak USA times, there was around 25k peak last night.
So do you think 15k to 35k people would watch a migraine-inducing stream of would they mostly pay to have at least the level of amateur streaming from a few years ago?
There would be more US viewers, but somehow I doubt it would more than double the current viewership Also remember that even for EU, streaming in the middle of the work day isn't that great either. Nor is "peak USA time" for that matter. There's just no perfect time slot that's good for everyone. That's where the good VOD system enters the scene and *may* justify paying a premium price.
But paying just to be able to watch a stream at an acceptable quality (as in better than a low-end amateur streamer from 2011)? No thanks.
I used to buy every GSL season ticket back in the day, but now there's just no way. I tried to watch the free stream, in case it would at least make me want to watch it in a better quality, but all I got was a mess of pixels over which I could hear Tastosis talking about anything but the game for the first five minutes. I can't even remember about what. So you can't see the game and you don't hear anything about it for the longest time. Great. Maybe it's because nothing even happens for the first few minutes in SC2 (which is arguable), but that's another issue. The starting worker count for LotV is probably not random. Until then, either you can see what's happening, or the casters are so good that they keep you interested all game long, start to finish, and compensate for the crappy video quality. GSL has neither.
Just what is the selling point of GSL right now, based on what's freely available? The highest level of play? Even if it was still true, how do you hook up someone new when they can't see what's happening? The best casters? Even if it was still true, how do you hook up someone new when they can't see what's happening and they have to wait half the game before the best casters, who may or may not be the reason for the paywall, start talking about the game that you can barely see?
Remove the Tastosis fanboys, remove the nostalgics from 2012/2013, who's left? More importantly, who's new?
I wrote a huge-ass response, but then I realized I just don't care anymore. You guys believe what you want to believe, you guys stay the the way you want to be. If you don't want to see the real issue, then fine. Live and let live.
I'm just gonna say this: GSL is not the league you show your friends when introducing them to SC2 anyway. Why? They can't tell the difference between a EU/NA pro and a KR pro anyway. You can explain anything you want, unless they know about the game they will just not see it.
So why not show them WCS instead of GSL? High production value, faces they might know from previous games, and for a newb, the same quality of games. Also much better times than GSL so they might actually, you know, be able to watch it.
On January 24 2015 14:44 Maniak_ wrote:
Remove the Tastosis fanboys, remove the nostalgics from 2012/2013, who's left? More importantly, who's new?
Ask that question for every league, please. Then you've got your answer.
It made me mad, at first--but then it all made sense. The stream quality matches the quality of analysis that Artosis gives: blurry and misguided. What you see in the blur is what you get from his commentary. After figuring that out, I'm not mad anymore because I don't waste my time watching GSL.
I am watching SPL atm on 360p on Azubu, becaue the internet here is very slow.
This 360p looks so much better then GSL on my 1080p monitor. I can read all numbers like supply and minerals, i can cout units and see what unit is what.
I dont even understand how GSL 360p can look so bad. I still think it is lower quality then 360ü, maybe 240
On January 27 2015 22:04 Clonester wrote: I am watching SPL atm on 360p on Azubu, becaue the internet here is very slow.
This 360p looks so much better then GSL on my 1080p monitor. I can read all numbers like supply and minerals, i can cout units and see what unit is what.
I dont even understand how GSL 360p can look so bad. I still think it is lower quality then 360ü, maybe 240
On 360p and 480p is Azubu much much better than twitch. 720p and upwards are not really noticeable anymore.
On January 26 2015 11:03 neptunusfisk wrote: What the actual.... now even the KR vods on youtube are only the first game of every set (edit: game 2 and 3 seem to be uploaded but KR only)
Looking at the number of views the VODs are getting since they did that, I'd have to say they shot themselves in the foot with that move.
On January 26 2015 11:03 neptunusfisk wrote: What the actual.... now even the KR vods on youtube are only the first game of every set (edit: game 2 and 3 seem to be uploaded but KR only)
In one corner we have GOM who is a dinsoaur still stuck in the stone age and in the other we have Blizzard who just doesn't give a fuck about it.
Has Blizzard said anything about this? No, not even a lame PR statement. It's like GOM has some dirty secrets on Blizzard or something.
Meanwhile, Spotv is offering a better product with better production values overall. Then you have OGN who previously only the free stream at 480p, now offers full HD stream for free in League Champions.
On January 27 2015 22:04 Clonester wrote: I am watching SPL atm on 360p on Azubu, becaue the internet here is very slow.
This 360p looks so much better then GSL on my 1080p monitor. I can read all numbers like supply and minerals, i can cout units and see what unit is what.
I dont even understand how GSL 360p can look so bad. I still think it is lower quality then 360ü, maybe 240
On 360p and 480p is Azubu much much better than twitch. 720p and upwards are not really noticeable anymore.
I suspect the real bitrate for 360p on Azubu is higher than Twitch's 360p bitrate.
I'm not a video editing expert (yet), but I do understand enough that video bitrate is just as important as, if not more so than, the resolution.
Also, it is possible to re-encode and increase the original bitrate to a fake bitrate. For example the original source could be 500 kbps and you could re-encode it to 1 mbps.
As a funny example, there's this really stubborn guy on the BW forums who re-encodes 640x480 @ 900kbps live streams, upscales them to 1440x1080, jacks up the bitrate to 4.2 mbps, and advertises them as 1080p HD videos on YouTube. It probably takes his computer a few hours, while sounding like a lawn mower, to re-encode them when he could've just left them as 480p @ 900kbps and still end up with better quality. People have thanked him for his EffOrt while commenting that it's not necessary (and actually worse) to re-encode them like this, but he continues doing it.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/czbU31V.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6Mjs4VS.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ih2Ykg6.png)
