On January 03 2015 01:17 geokilla wrote: Does America have any good players to begin with? There are so little...
Huk, if we count him as American, is the best one. After that it's probably qxc and puck.
State...
What has State done if forever? He has no results to prove anything.
No but he trains in Korea, so that means he is better in some peoples minds even without having anything in competitive play to prove it. I don't know why exactly they think that, but whatever.
Good luck to Puck, hope he stays in the scene, good player.
On January 03 2015 01:17 geokilla wrote: Does America have any good players to begin with? There are so little...
Huk, if we count him as American, is the best one. After that it's probably qxc and puck.
State...
What has State done if forever? He has no results to prove anything.
No but he trains in Korea, so that means he is better in some peoples minds even without having anything in competitive play to prove it. I don't know why exactly they think that, but whatever.
Good luck to Puck, hope he stays in the scene, good player.
Don't really want to get into this too much, but if you ask any actual player in NA, even in korea too -- instead of arguing with forum posters -- they will tell you they have great respect for State as a player and dood. He is one of the few foreigners who genuinely wants to get good at the game instead of "winning all that he can" which is apparently your only basis for someone being good. State is without a doubt one of the best North Americans, and I'd easily say top 3 protoss. Imo it is kind of silly to argue who is "the best" as each player has their ups and downs over time.
That said, good luck to puck! I hope he gets a great new home and that he does well in WCS this season.
On January 03 2015 03:01 elfonse wrote: I have a feeling he will get picked up by flipsid3 tactics. They just said they are picking up some new players
This actually makes a fair degree of sense. F3 is stable and has an all-NA roster.
On January 03 2015 02:17 Pokebunny wrote: IvD is not disbanding but lost much of sponsorship and could no longer provide for players some things in their contracts (this was about two months ago). Hence the departure of intense, Phog, and puCK. Current active roster is me, Bones, Zan, NoRegreT, RuFF. We're hoping some of our players can get results in upcoming WCS season to regain sponsorship and maybe pick up a couple more upcoming talents.
Also, kind sad that probably one of the top 10 NA players gets people saying "who?" when he leaves a team. Just because some of you don't follow NA players doesn't mean nobody does, puCK has a pretty decent stream following even.
They are just being dicks. puCK is top US for sure, especially since it's US and not NA which would include a lot stronger canadian players.
On January 03 2015 01:17 geokilla wrote: Does America have any good players to begin with? There are so little...
Huk, if we count him as American, is the best one. After that it's probably qxc and puck.
State...
What has State done if forever? He has no results to prove anything.
No but he trains in Korea, so that means he is better in some peoples minds even without having anything in competitive play to prove it. I don't know why exactly they think that, but whatever.
Good luck to Puck, hope he stays in the scene, good player.
Don't really want to get into this too much, but if you ask any actual player in NA, even in korea too -- instead of arguing with forum posters -- they will tell you they have great respect for State as a player and dood. He is one of the few foreigners who genuinely wants to get good at the game instead of "winning all that he can" which is apparently your only basis for someone being good. State is without a doubt one of the best North Americans, and I'd easily say top 3 protoss. Imo it is kind of silly to argue who is "the best" as each player has their ups and downs over time.
That said, good luck to puck! I hope he gets a great new home and that he does well in WCS this season.
Too many silly strawman styled arguments in your post. You make it sound like I have an agenda against State when in fact I am just looking at results/facts. If competition is not a way to judge someone's level and ability in a given sport/event then what is exactly?
On January 03 2015 01:17 geokilla wrote: Does America have any good players to begin with? There are so little...
Huk, if we count him as American, is the best one. After that it's probably qxc and puck.
State...
What has State done if forever? He has no results to prove anything.
No but he trains in Korea, so that means he is better in some peoples minds even without having anything in competitive play to prove it. I don't know why exactly they think that, but whatever.
Good luck to Puck, hope he stays in the scene, good player.
Don't really want to get into this too much, but if you ask any actual player in NA, even in korea too -- instead of arguing with forum posters -- they will tell you they have great respect for State as a player and dood. He is one of the few foreigners who genuinely wants to get good at the game instead of "winning all that he can" which is apparently your only basis for someone being good. State is without a doubt one of the best North Americans, and I'd easily say top 3 protoss. Imo it is kind of silly to argue who is "the best" as each player has their ups and downs over time.
That said, good luck to puck! I hope he gets a great new home and that he does well in WCS this season.
Too many silly strawman styled arguments in your post. You make it sound like I have an agenda against State when in fact I am just looking at results/facts. If competition is not a way to judge someone's level and ability in a given sport/event then what is exactly?
uh, throwing random philosophy words into a post and saying i somehow think you have an agenda in doesn't really change what i stated >.> ... my second sentence answered your last one @_@;; the "fact" is both him, puck, scarlett, qxc and many others are incredibly good, some of whom have "less tournament victories" than others.
On January 03 2015 01:17 geokilla wrote: Does America have any good players to begin with? There are so little...
Huk, if we count him as American, is the best one. After that it's probably qxc and puck.
State...
What has State done if forever? He has no results to prove anything.
No but he trains in Korea, so that means he is better in some peoples minds even without having anything in competitive play to prove it. I don't know why exactly they think that, but whatever.
Good luck to Puck, hope he stays in the scene, good player.
Don't really want to get into this too much, but if you ask any actual player in NA, even in korea too -- instead of arguing with forum posters -- they will tell you they have great respect for State as a player and dood. He is one of the few foreigners who genuinely wants to get good at the game instead of "winning all that he can" which is apparently your only basis for someone being good. State is without a doubt one of the best North Americans, and I'd easily say top 3 protoss. Imo it is kind of silly to argue who is "the best" as each player has their ups and downs over time.
That said, good luck to puck! I hope he gets a great new home and that he does well in WCS this season.
Too many silly strawman styled arguments in your post. You make it sound like I have an agenda against State when in fact I am just looking at results/facts. If competition is not a way to judge someone's level and ability in a given sport/event then what is exactly?
uh, throwing random philosophy words into a post and saying i somehow think you have an agenda in doesn't really change what i stated >.> ... my second sentence answered your last one @_@;; the "fact" is both him, puck, scarlett, qxc and many others are incredibly good, some of whom have "less tournament victories" than others.
Oh they are all good players for sure, but you misinterpret me again. Someone mentioned State as the best NA player and that was what I was replying to. You obviously do not rate achievements in tournaments as very important, which is just not the way any sport works at a professional level. Anyway I do not want to post about this again because I have nothing against the guy, only the people who have a boner over anything Korea and gaming related, like what happened with Sase, Last Shadow etc.
On January 03 2015 01:17 geokilla wrote: Does America have any good players to begin with? There are so little...
Huk, if we count him as American, is the best one. After that it's probably qxc and puck.
State...
What has State done if forever? He has no results to prove anything.
No but he trains in Korea, so that means he is better in some peoples minds even without having anything in competitive play to prove it. I don't know why exactly they think that, but whatever.
Good luck to Puck, hope he stays in the scene, good player.
Don't really want to get into this too much, but if you ask any actual player in NA, even in korea too -- instead of arguing with forum posters -- they will tell you they have great respect for State as a player and dood. He is one of the few foreigners who genuinely wants to get good at the game instead of "winning all that he can" which is apparently your only basis for someone being good. State is without a doubt one of the best North Americans, and I'd easily say top 3 protoss. Imo it is kind of silly to argue who is "the best" as each player has their ups and downs over time.
That said, good luck to puck! I hope he gets a great new home and that he does well in WCS this season.
Too many silly strawman styled arguments in your post. You make it sound like I have an agenda against State when in fact I am just looking at results/facts. If competition is not a way to judge someone's level and ability in a given sport/event then what is exactly?
uh, throwing random philosophy words into a post and saying i somehow think you have an agenda in doesn't really change what i stated >.> ... my second sentence answered your last one @_@;; the "fact" is both him, puck, scarlett, qxc and many others are incredibly good, some of whom have "less tournament victories" than others.
It's not neccesarily about tournament victories. It's about in results in general. Take a look at his match history: In the last 3 months the only notable player, he defeated is Arthur (twice). The other guys are people, you see in the early rounds of qualifiers sometime, but not really near pro level. Now take a look at his losses: I can't blame him for losing against the koreans or GungufuBanda, because in the context we are talking about (best US player), there is noone, who would be favored against any of those guys. But losing to Drunkenboi, Schnitzel, Trace and Bails without getting a few wins against notable NA players inbetween is a bit worrying and thus it is a valid argument to just see QXC, puck and maybe even Bails a bit ahead of him, because they have the factual results, he currently does not have. That doesn't mean, he can't get them: MajOr spend a lot of time in korea and didn't achieve anything for a while, getting overhyped before every tourney and then getting eliminated by JazBas in the first round of the LB. Eventually though, he finally improved and is currently one of the best terrans outside of korea and the undisputed best terrans in the americas (Excluding koreans). Maybe State can do the same in the future, but he isn't doing it at this moment.
We could have said "Boxer and Yellow are both incredibly good, one of them has just less tournament victories than the other" in the beginning of bw. That didn't happen. People established Boxer as the best player of that era. I think, that we should be honest with ourselves here as well and give puck and QXC the title of "current best US-americans, who are not canadian as well" instead of including more and more people and just say, that they are all great.
On January 03 2015 01:17 geokilla wrote: Does America have any good players to begin with? There are so little...
Huk, if we count him as American, is the best one. After that it's probably qxc and puck.
State...
What has State done if forever? He has no results to prove anything.
No but he trains in Korea, so that means he is better in some peoples minds even without having anything in competitive play to prove it. I don't know why exactly they think that, but whatever.
Good luck to Puck, hope he stays in the scene, good player.
Don't really want to get into this too much, but if you ask any actual player in NA, even in korea too -- instead of arguing with forum posters -- they will tell you they have great respect for State as a player and dood. He is one of the few foreigners who genuinely wants to get good at the game instead of "winning all that he can" which is apparently your only basis for someone being good. State is without a doubt one of the best North Americans, and I'd easily say top 3 protoss. Imo it is kind of silly to argue who is "the best" as each player has their ups and downs over time.
That said, good luck to puck! I hope he gets a great new home and that he does well in WCS this season.
Too many silly strawman styled arguments in your post. You make it sound like I have an agenda against State when in fact I am just looking at results/facts. If competition is not a way to judge someone's level and ability in a given sport/event then what is exactly?
uh, throwing random philosophy words into a post and saying i somehow think you have an agenda in doesn't really change what i stated >.> ... my second sentence answered your last one @_@;; the "fact" is both him, puck, scarlett, qxc and many others are incredibly good, some of whom have "less tournament victories" than others.
It's not neccesarily about tournament victories. It's about in results in general. Take a look at his match history: In the last 3 months the only notable player, he defeated is Arthur (twice). The other guys are people, you see in the early rounds of qualifiers sometime, but not really near pro level. Now take a look at his losses: I can't blame him for losing against the koreans or GungufuBanda, because in the context we are talking about (best US player), there is noone, who would be favored against any of those guys. But losing to Drunkenboi, Schnitzel, Trace and Bails without getting a few wins against notable NA players inbetween is a bit worrying and thus it is a valid argument to just see QXC, puck and maybe even Bails a bit ahead of him, because they have the factual results, he currently does not have. That doesn't mean, he can't get them: MajOr spend a lot of time in korea and didn't achieve anything for a while, getting overhyped before every tourney and then getting eliminated by JazBas in the first round of the LB. Eventually though, he finally improved and is currently one of the best terrans outside of korea and the undisputed best terrans in the americas (Excluding koreans). Maybe State can do the same in the future, but he isn't doing it at this moment.
We could have said "Boxer and Yellow are both incredibly good, one of them has just less tournament victories than the other" in the beginning of bw. That didn't happen. People established Boxer as the best player of that era. I think, that we should be honest with ourselves here as well and give puck and QXC the title of "current best US-americans, who are not canadian as well" instead of including more and more people and just say, that they are all great.
Boxer is the most overrated player in the history of anything. I think Boxer is a reason for why people should be more reluctant to call anyone " the best." As for State, I looked at his matchup stats the other day, and he has been atrocious versus Terran. Unfortunately or rightly so, even if you're vastly superior to others in a broad sense, as long as you have a matchup that lags behind, you're boned in tournaments, without bracket luck.
Hitman is ahead of Puck, atm, on ladder. Who talks about Hitman? A guy who plays like maxblack, but with slightly different strats, is doing the best on NA ladder. People already know what the guy is going to do... NA players are obviously deeply flawed and there can't be a big enough difference between players to even suggest that one player is the best. Saying who the best in the NA is little more than saying "hey, this is my favorite player between players at an indistinguishable level."
On January 03 2015 01:17 geokilla wrote: Does America have any good players to begin with? There are so little...
Huk, if we count him as American, is the best one. After that it's probably qxc and puck.
State...
What has State done if forever? He has no results to prove anything.
No but he trains in Korea, so that means he is better in some peoples minds even without having anything in competitive play to prove it. I don't know why exactly they think that, but whatever.
Good luck to Puck, hope he stays in the scene, good player.
Don't really want to get into this too much, but if you ask any actual player in NA, even in korea too -- instead of arguing with forum posters -- they will tell you they have great respect for State as a player and dood. He is one of the few foreigners who genuinely wants to get good at the game instead of "winning all that he can" which is apparently your only basis for someone being good. State is without a doubt one of the best North Americans, and I'd easily say top 3 protoss. Imo it is kind of silly to argue who is "the best" as each player has their ups and downs over time.
That said, good luck to puck! I hope he gets a great new home and that he does well in WCS this season.
Too many silly strawman styled arguments in your post. You make it sound like I have an agenda against State when in fact I am just looking at results/facts. If competition is not a way to judge someone's level and ability in a given sport/event then what is exactly?
uh, throwing random philosophy words into a post and saying i somehow think you have an agenda in doesn't really change what i stated >.> ... my second sentence answered your last one @_@;; the "fact" is both him, puck, scarlett, qxc and many others are incredibly good, some of whom have "less tournament victories" than others.
It's not neccesarily about tournament victories. It's about in results in general. Take a look at his match history: In the last 3 months the only notable player, he defeated is Arthur (twice). The other guys are people, you see in the early rounds of qualifiers sometime, but not really near pro level. Now take a look at his losses: I can't blame him for losing against the koreans or GungufuBanda, because in the context we are talking about (best US player), there is noone, who would be favored against any of those guys. But losing to Drunkenboi, Schnitzel, Trace and Bails without getting a few wins against notable NA players inbetween is a bit worrying and thus it is a valid argument to just see QXC, puck and maybe even Bails a bit ahead of him, because they have the factual results, he currently does not have. That doesn't mean, he can't get them: MajOr spend a lot of time in korea and didn't achieve anything for a while, getting overhyped before every tourney and then getting eliminated by JazBas in the first round of the LB. Eventually though, he finally improved and is currently one of the best terrans outside of korea and the undisputed best terrans in the americas (Excluding koreans). Maybe State can do the same in the future, but he isn't doing it at this moment.
We could have said "Boxer and Yellow are both incredibly good, one of them has just less tournament victories than the other" in the beginning of bw. That didn't happen. People established Boxer as the best player of that era. I think, that we should be honest with ourselves here as well and give puck and QXC the title of "current best US-americans, who are not canadian as well" instead of including more and more people and just say, that they are all great.
Boxer is the most overrated player in the history of anything. I think Boxer is a reason for why people should be more reluctant to call anyone " the best." As for State, I looked at his matchup stats the other day, and he has been atrocious versus Terran. Unfortunately or rightly so, even if you're vastly superior to others in a broad sense, as long as you have a matchup that lags behind, you're boned in tournaments, without bracket luck.
Hitman is ahead of Puck, atm, on ladder. Who talks about Hitman? A guy who plays like maxblack, but with slightly different strats, is doing the best on NA ladder. People already know what the guy is going to do... NA players are obviously deeply flawed and there can't be a big enough difference between players to even suggest that one player is the best. Saying who the best in the NA is little more than saying "hey, this is my favorite player between players at an indistinguishable level."
Hitman can be talked about as well, I just forgot about him while writing the post. Yes, you're right about US players being hard to judge, because of the relatively small sample size. But trying to analyze data with a small sample size is probably still better than having none at all.
On January 03 2015 01:19 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: [quote] Huk, if we count him as American, is the best one. After that it's probably qxc and puck.
State...
What has State done if forever? He has no results to prove anything.
No but he trains in Korea, so that means he is better in some peoples minds even without having anything in competitive play to prove it. I don't know why exactly they think that, but whatever.
Good luck to Puck, hope he stays in the scene, good player.
Don't really want to get into this too much, but if you ask any actual player in NA, even in korea too -- instead of arguing with forum posters -- they will tell you they have great respect for State as a player and dood. He is one of the few foreigners who genuinely wants to get good at the game instead of "winning all that he can" which is apparently your only basis for someone being good. State is without a doubt one of the best North Americans, and I'd easily say top 3 protoss. Imo it is kind of silly to argue who is "the best" as each player has their ups and downs over time.
That said, good luck to puck! I hope he gets a great new home and that he does well in WCS this season.
Too many silly strawman styled arguments in your post. You make it sound like I have an agenda against State when in fact I am just looking at results/facts. If competition is not a way to judge someone's level and ability in a given sport/event then what is exactly?
uh, throwing random philosophy words into a post and saying i somehow think you have an agenda in doesn't really change what i stated >.> ... my second sentence answered your last one @_@;; the "fact" is both him, puck, scarlett, qxc and many others are incredibly good, some of whom have "less tournament victories" than others.
It's not neccesarily about tournament victories. It's about in results in general. Take a look at his match history: In the last 3 months the only notable player, he defeated is Arthur (twice). The other guys are people, you see in the early rounds of qualifiers sometime, but not really near pro level. Now take a look at his losses: I can't blame him for losing against the koreans or GungufuBanda, because in the context we are talking about (best US player), there is noone, who would be favored against any of those guys. But losing to Drunkenboi, Schnitzel, Trace and Bails without getting a few wins against notable NA players inbetween is a bit worrying and thus it is a valid argument to just see QXC, puck and maybe even Bails a bit ahead of him, because they have the factual results, he currently does not have. That doesn't mean, he can't get them: MajOr spend a lot of time in korea and didn't achieve anything for a while, getting overhyped before every tourney and then getting eliminated by JazBas in the first round of the LB. Eventually though, he finally improved and is currently one of the best terrans outside of korea and the undisputed best terrans in the americas (Excluding koreans). Maybe State can do the same in the future, but he isn't doing it at this moment.
We could have said "Boxer and Yellow are both incredibly good, one of them has just less tournament victories than the other" in the beginning of bw. That didn't happen. People established Boxer as the best player of that era. I think, that we should be honest with ourselves here as well and give puck and QXC the title of "current best US-americans, who are not canadian as well" instead of including more and more people and just say, that they are all great.
Boxer is the most overrated player in the history of anything. I think Boxer is a reason for why people should be more reluctant to call anyone " the best." As for State, I looked at his matchup stats the other day, and he has been atrocious versus Terran. Unfortunately or rightly so, even if you're vastly superior to others in a broad sense, as long as you have a matchup that lags behind, you're boned in tournaments, without bracket luck.
Hitman is ahead of Puck, atm, on ladder. Who talks about Hitman? A guy who plays like maxblack, but with slightly different strats, is doing the best on NA ladder. People already know what the guy is going to do... NA players are obviously deeply flawed and there can't be a big enough difference between players to even suggest that one player is the best. Saying who the best in the NA is little more than saying "hey, this is my favorite player between players at an indistinguishable level."
Hitman can be talked about as well, I just forgot about him while writing the post. Yes, you're right about US players being hard to judge, because of the relatively small sample size. But trying to analyze data with a small sample size is probably still better than having none at all.
I think you have to quantify things by saying "best tournament player." State could be top 50 GM on Korea, but he wouldn't win any NA tournaments unless he improved his P vs T. Meanwhile, Puck could be 110th on the ladder, yet win all of them. Would that necessarily make Puck the better player? I don't think so. Even if did, there's so many players who play at such a similar level that who is to say someone else wouldn't become better tomorrow? Until there is a big discrepancy/gap, it's just not a meaningful title even if accurate.
EPT
