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On December 18 2014 20:22 RHoudini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 04:06 EatThePath wrote:
Why do I get the impression whenever I read these that the sc2 design team has no idea what it's doing. Exactly. It feels like they're just doing some random stuff and hope that eventually something will work out.
its not random, its taking a strong turn towards a C&C style RTS.
the 1st 3 minutes of a game of RA2 is a lot more fun than the first 3 minutes of an SC2 game.
guess who was the lead designer or RA2? Dustin Browder.
tim morton, greg black, jason bender, dustin browder....
it seems like 1/2 the SC2 team is ex-C&C guys.
Rob Pardo is gone and now many of the fundamentals he based SC2 on are finally being abandoned.
That's what is going on and it is not random at all.
On December 18 2014 20:22 RHoudini wrote:
Then again, the lack of any other competitive RTS videogame suggests that this genre is really, really difficult.
good point. and i'd say impossible to gain mass appeal if "mass appeal" is someone's defintion of success that is.
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On December 18 2014 23:17 Flood1993 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 23:00 ZAiNs wrote:
They said before specifically that they are waiting for beta to be out before they go completely crazy with changes so that they can get proper feedback instead of speculation. Seeing what they did with HotS I don't have too much faith really...
Well HotS is amazing a lot better than WoL, and LotV will be amazing-er.
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On December 18 2014 23:26 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 23:17 Flood1993 wrote:On December 18 2014 23:00 ZAiNs wrote:
They said before specifically that they are waiting for beta to be out before they go completely crazy with changes so that they can get proper feedback instead of speculation. Seeing what they did with HotS I don't have too much faith really... Well HotS is amazing a lot better than WoL, and LotV will be amazing-er.
Meh, WoL felt like a finished game with issues. HotS feels like it was abbandoned half-way through it's development. Apart from balancing TvZ (which didn't need an expansion but a patch) and turning PvZ and PvP into better matchups, HotS hasn't done much good. TvT is slightly worse, TvP and ZvZ are just worse and feel like dumbed-down versions of their WoL-selves to me.
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On December 18 2014 09:32 H0i wrote:
Protoss doesn't need another "uncommon" unit - It needs a new gateway unit, a solid one that is versatile to make the protoss army more effective in small groups instead of just deathballs. A unit that deals well with big masses of units like MM balls and clumps of lings, without being some tier 3 very expensive very big very clunky unit. This would automatically reduce the deathball effect and improve the ability to defend spread out bases. Pretty much a win win. But how would such a unit look like? That's another story.
Can't help but feel that it's a linchpin to the entire deathball dynamic for SC2 since this is it. Must think hard I suppose.
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On December 18 2014 23:26 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 23:17 Flood1993 wrote:On December 18 2014 23:00 ZAiNs wrote:
They said before specifically that they are waiting for beta to be out before they go completely crazy with changes so that they can get proper feedback instead of speculation. Seeing what they did with HotS I don't have too much faith really... Well HotS is amazing a lot better than WoL, and LotV will be amazing-er.
WoL's balance was off 75% of the time but the core concepts were superior.
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On December 18 2014 04:06 EatThePath wrote:
Why do I get the impression whenever I read these that the sc2 design team has no idea what it's doing.
indeed
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On December 18 2014 23:45 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 23:26 ZAiNs wrote:On December 18 2014 23:17 Flood1993 wrote:On December 18 2014 23:00 ZAiNs wrote:
They said before specifically that they are waiting for beta to be out before they go completely crazy with changes so that they can get proper feedback instead of speculation. Seeing what they did with HotS I don't have too much faith really... Well HotS is amazing a lot better than WoL, and LotV will be amazing-er. WoL's balance was off 75% of the time but the core concepts were superior.
Why, I think the way the mine works is better than perfect!! It's so exciting to see whether the RNG decided Terran may win or Zerg may win! Siege Tanks were ugly and slow and stupid
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Russian Federation1613 Posts
On December 18 2014 23:49 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 23:45 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2014 23:26 ZAiNs wrote:On December 18 2014 23:17 Flood1993 wrote:On December 18 2014 23:00 ZAiNs wrote:
They said before specifically that they are waiting for beta to be out before they go completely crazy with changes so that they can get proper feedback instead of speculation. Seeing what they did with HotS I don't have too much faith really... Well HotS is amazing a lot better than WoL, and LotV will be amazing-er. WoL's balance was off 75% of the time but the core concepts were superior. Why, I think the way the mine works is better than perfect!! It's so exciting to see whether the RNG decided Terran may win or Zerg may win! Siege Tanks were ugly and slow and stupid
Widow Mine is the best thing that exists in SC2.
It's random and you must be so good to make it effective but anyway it can deal damage even if you are bad.
It's like Reaver in BW.
This game of Random and Skill makes the game beautiful.
Random is highly underrated by SC2 developers. But the funny thing that it makes the game even more random or just boring.
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Mines just aren't random... don't know who came up with it being random, when it is a 100% predictable behavior when you play them. Just for viewers and opponents it is not predictable, but that's the same for every unit. You never know which one of yours it is going to attack until it does.
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I can only voice my support that protoss needs some core unit to make to stand its ground against Roaches, and marauders. As it is now, the Zealot / immortal and to some extent the archon - feel like the only units that cant hold their ground without a lot of support or micro
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This post is great but also full of bullshit. They gave us feedback which is nice but for a lot of stuff it seems they have no clue of what they are doing !
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I just don't understand blizzard's design philosophy with Protoss (honestly, i don't think they even know).
Instead of all these funky gimmicks and bandaids, why don't they just admit the mistake, nuke the sentry and colossus from the game, and return the gateway back to it's former glory. Beefy zealots and deadly dragoons. The stalker, being a pretty cool unit w/ nice micro potential, could then be pushed more into a harass type of unit, with high mobility & blink, but be squishier.
With strong gateway units, protoss doesn't need the nexus overcharge to stay safe and they have a solid core to get to high tech units without hiding behind forcefields or other boring/gimmicky tricks. This also fits into the new LOTV theme of expanding quicker, because now they have a core set of units that can be effective without all being clumped up in a deathball. Seriously, sentries and colossus require you be clumped up because they all suck on their own, but because they are such powerful units, they would be imba if gateway units were strong on their own. Hence why we have crappy gateway units.
If mid-game splash is something that would still be needed they could always look at bringing in some reincarnation of the reaver. Or perhaps redesign the immortal to be a small-radius splashy unit (tho this may have too much overlap with archon).
With colossus and sentry gone, you could fix a lot of the lame bandaids on other races too
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i would remove the sentrie and redesign protoss.
u can do it, just make changes and give us the beta, then we test it six months if needed and u release the game on summer.
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On December 18 2014 23:42 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 09:32 H0i wrote:
Protoss doesn't need another "uncommon" unit - It needs a new gateway unit, a solid one that is versatile to make the protoss army more effective in small groups instead of just deathballs. A unit that deals well with big masses of units like MM balls and clumps of lings, without being some tier 3 very expensive very big very clunky unit. This would automatically reduce the deathball effect and improve the ability to defend spread out bases. Pretty much a win win. But how would such a unit look like? That's another story. Can't help but feel that it's a linchpin to the entire deathball dynamic for SC2 since this is it. Must think hard I suppose.
If only we could draw inspiration from an older RTS game of a tier 2 unit that was strong at harassment/small engagements, had efficient AoE damage, and rewarded player micro/control with the weakness of being maybe really slow and being easily picked off without appropriate support.
Hmm hmm HMM LET'S THINK GUYS
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On December 18 2014 20:06 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 11:05 Big J wrote:
Protoss Gateway unit idea, lorewise it is Nerazim
*insert Protoss name*
*some Ninja skin with some Psi-Shuriken or similar*
Cost 75/75/2
80HP/20Shield/0armor, light, biological
Attack: Damage 15(+2), Cooldown: 1.5
Attack range 5, ground only
speed: 3.0 (like a speed roach)
size: like a zealot
drop-size: 2
Auto-Cast ability, 6second cooldown: When attacking, the *Ninja Super Trooper* immidiately performs a second attack.
tech requirement: twilight council
Stats Analysis:
good damage output: 13.75 dps, good burst (due to the double attack at the beginning of a combat), good upgrading
can't take many hits, so it has bad tanking for the Colossus
mediocre range, so only zealots and archons can tank reasonably for it
quite mobile, so it can roam the map a lot
does not go well with usual deathball units like stalkers and Colossi due to standing in front of the stalkers
Strategically:
The unit does synergize very well with zealots and can kill enemy workers and stray units very fast. The high-burst damage (30 on the first shot) makes it very good in the midnumbers against Terran bio units, because the bio-units can get bursted down before the medivac-heal takes full effect.
From a cost-balance point of view, the unit cannot be massed on its own in early rushes, because of the high gas:mineral ratio. It's weakness are faster units such as zerglings or hellions that can close the distance and force it into combat, however, due to the high damage output they can still take a good amount of enemies with them into the grave.
It should offer Protoss players an alternative ranged combat and harassment unit to the stalker, with a very contrasting approach in gameplay.
Tactically:
The unit can be microed against very well due to the 5range and sniped very fast. However, with a reasonable zealot buffer the unit can dish out its high burst damage and then use its high speed to fall back until more zealots arrive.
While it doesn't quite bring the same longterm damage output onto the battlefield as marines or hydralisks, the high burst damage allows it to quickly overwhelm enemy forces to fight another day.
Thumbs up!
Exactly this. Since the HotS beta I feel Protoss needs a new core unit that actually helps battle speedlings/roaches/bio in the early to mid game, cost by cost. A mobile one too, because Protoss moves fucking slow right now.
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Please remove the HERC... How are you to ever achieve balance when you clearly want to give 1 race an advantage over another?
As far as i'm concerned, Terran already has an advantage over ling/bane...
The viper change is another that I also disagree with. I think the best thing to do is what quite a few people have already said, and just add the Scourge! Or they could always just tweak the stats on the corruptor. I guess it all depends on how well the viper ability will work in game, but from what I have just read it seems like a bad idea.
I really hope they decide to add a new gateway unit to the game. Protoss doesn't need another trash unit that gets smashed by every other races tier 1. I way always under the assumption that protoss was supposed to be the race with the strongest units, which is why they are expensive.
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I don't understand the point of that protoss unit. ANOTHER harass unit? Right now the problem with gateway armies is that they are easily kited (zealots) and/or don't deal enough damage (stalkers, and zealots don't scale well).
I think what protoss needs is something to help zealot/archon or twilight comps. Robotics is getting a new unit, stargate is getting huge upgrades, but nothing is being done with templar tech. Gateway armies are just going to look even worse in LOTV and they're already pretty bad.
There's no other way to say it: protoss needs the dark archon. A nerfed maelstrom that functions as an AOE movement and attack speed slow would be a huge help to zealots, and it would put the hurt on those cheesy/infuriating muta floods. Twilight armies also need some way to deal with hellbats and widow mines. To round out its abilities, the dark archon ought to have some form of detection, and a nuke like yamato cannon to snipe key units. I imagine that would make zealot/archon more viable in PvP as well if you could take out a colossus with a couple dark archon spells (200 damage each maybe?). Besides, an archon with a kamehameha spell just seems fucking awesome.
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On December 19 2014 01:19 BaronVonOwn wrote:
I don't understand the point of that protoss unit. ANOTHER harass unit? Right now the problem with gateway armies is that they are easily kited (zealots) and/or don't deal enough damage (stalkers, and zealots don't scale well).
I think what protoss needs is something to help zealot/archon or twilight comps. Robotics is getting a new unit, stargate is getting huge upgrades, but nothing is being done with templar tech. Gateway armies are just going to look even worse in LOTV and they're already pretty bad.
There's no other way to say it: protoss needs the dark archon. A nerfed maelstrom that functions as an AOE movement and attack speed slow would be a huge help to zealots, and it would put the hurt on those cheesy/infuriating muta floods. Twilight armies also need some way to deal with hellbats and widow mines. To round out its abilities, the dark archon ought to have some form of detection, and a nuke like yamato cannon to snipe key units. I imagine that would make zealot/archon more viable in PvP as well if you could take out a colossus with a couple dark archon spells (200 damage each maybe?). Besides, an archon with a kamehameha spell just seems fucking awesome.
I like this idea alot
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I've wanted my Brood War cracklings back for so long. That upgrade used to have devastating consequences, and in its current form I don't even notice it. I really hope they choose to increase zergling attack speed as a late-game upgrade rather than add a new infestor ability to accomplish the same goal.
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What protoss needs is not another spellcaster but a core unit with micro potential. Thats why i would love to see existing units tweaked for all races to fix the micro vs micro overall. The depth would increase alot by doing that.
I liked big J unit idea. A core unit that is good in combat mostly, functions well with zealots and other units.
The burst it has is good vs medivac healing and roach regenerate. Perfect opportunity to improve the micro potential for the roach with this kind of burst unit.
When i make my units i wanna feel that iam in control of what i do. Should give me a good feel and those units should be able to do stuff.
If its necessary to build Vikings to deal with warpprism harass->Its lame and boring.
I would like it to be available to deal with prism harass with my ground units, the core units.
The new mech unit for example needs to be atleast decent with harass and good in combat. There is no way it would be fun if a unit all can do is harass and not fight.
When i look at stalker against terran i see this unit that doesnt rly fight the bio force but purely attacks medivacs or vikings. It becomes dull quite fast.
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EPT
