On December 19 2014 01:19 BaronVonOwn wrote: I think what protoss needs is something to help zealot/archon or twilight comps. Robotics is getting a new unit, stargate is getting huge upgrades, but nothing is being done with templar tech. Gateway armies are just going to look even worse in LOTV and they're already pretty bad.
While I would love to see a Dark Archon or just a new beefy gateway unit, I think a lot of the problems with protoss gateway units can be solved through small changes. BW style zealot leg speed for instance. If the zealots move as fast as stimmed bio does then they could be effectively split from widow mine shots and just have a much higher micro potential in general. Another idea which also comes from the best RTS, would be to remove the dark shrine, and allow dts to be built by having a templar archives. I think these two things alone would push protoss in the right direction without tweaking any stats to the current units.
For the new protoss unit, perhaps something similar to the hellion / hellbat, where you can constantly activate or deactivate something which makes the unit more powerful but slower? You can't really dynamically use the hellion phase change because of the animation delay, but for this new unit it could be instant. Or perhaps as an ability which activates for 10s with a 30s cooldown.
On December 19 2014 01:19 BaronVonOwn wrote: I think what protoss needs is something to help zealot/archon or twilight comps. Robotics is getting a new unit, stargate is getting huge upgrades, but nothing is being done with templar tech. Gateway armies are just going to look even worse in LOTV and they're already pretty bad.
While I would love to see a Dark Archon or just a new beefy gateway unit, I think a lot of the problems with protoss gateway units can be solved through small changes. BW style zealot leg speed for instance. If the zealots move as fast as stimmed bio does then they could be effectively split from widow mine shots and just have a much higher micro potential in general. Another idea which also comes from the best RTS, would be to remove the dark shrine, and allow dts to be built by having a templar archives. I think these two things alone would push protoss in the right direction without tweaking any stats to the current units.
I posted this in the Balance Discussion Thread yesterday, but it might also apply in this thread:
On December 18 2014 03:40 SC2Toastie wrote: SSL SPOILERS ! ! ! ! !
So, I have a minor complaint on how TvP lategame works out ^_^ This is a result of watching the series in SSL today.
The problem is with the Zealot. More specifically, the low amounts of attention the Zealot needs compared to the countermicro that is required from Terran, but also the lack of micro that can be spend on Zealots.
It is very visible in SSL Game 3 between Classic and Cure, where Classic made a ton of Zealots, Cure kills the collosi and kites the Zealots until they pretty much all die. There is nothing Classic can do in such a situation; either he retreats and loses units to Concussive Shells, or he moves on and tries to equalize the damage he takes by sniping Medivacs and Vikings with his Stalkers. Whilst he proceeds to win the game, I noticed this stupid situation in the game.
In Game 5 the exact opposite happens. Classic shows and excellent understanding of the matchup and abuses the excessive amounts of micro and attention Terran needs to spend on units to trade efficiently for 10 minutes. Charge Zealots have such a good AI, speed and strenght they trade really efficiently with Terran bio. As a rule of thumb, bio needs to be in about 1.5x the supply for Terran to only Stim and trade well. If Terran has less supply at location, he'll have to kite to ensure a decent trade. Now, this is a stupid situation as it's either... or .... Terran either loses a marauder for 4 Zealots, or he loses 3 marauders and 4 marines for 4 zealots. The only difference is whether the Terran player can spend the time on handling the engagement.
Now, Classic abuses this 'imbalance' in attention required. On King Sejong Station, he greatly abuses the AI on Zealots by repeating the same pattern over and over and over. A) he moves a force of approx. 6 Zealots to Cure's natural or fifth expansion. B) he moves his army towards Cures fifth base and C) he does some move with a pair of High Templar. The problem lies in the fact that each and every of these moves is a simple move command for Classic whilst looking at the High Templar to aim his storms and the minimap to retreat his main army. For Cure, however, this means extremely careful micro in 3 locations. Verse the Zealots, he needs to scramble an army at location, either position it in a tight choke (TIGHT!, thanks to Charge) or kite. He meanwhile needs to perfectly position his main army so his Ghost and Vikings zone out Classics main army, AND he has to be watching the minimap to respond within a second to minimize the damage the HT are going to do.
Classic won this game five after being behind by messing up an engagement and macro-ing like a silver leaguer only by repeating this pattern.
I have thought of two possible solutions for this. A: change Warpgate. Won't happen, so I'll ignore that. The second one is to change the Charge upgrade to increase movement speed and possibly decrease the effect of movement restricting spells like Concussive Shells, Fungal Growth and Time Warp (either by 100% or by a lower percentage) and remove the actual Charge. Note, this is not necessarily a nerf. Zealots move faster across the map and they will become substantially better when micro'd compared to the current situation in which micro usually decreases their effectiveness compared to a simple amove.
This change completely changes the Zealot verse kiting bio scenario. Currently, Zealots sort of 'shuffle' when being kited: the Zealots in the back Charge, get a free hit on the bio, and are now in front. Combined with Concussive Shells, this perfectly distributes damage across all Zealots that are following the Bio army, forcing Terran to kite continuously until most zealots are dead. This is because a 10 HP Zealot still deals the same amount of damage a 150 HP Zealot deals. Protoss, on the other hand, cannot really do anything. Retreating means just losing some Zealots. Good bio players will abuse this majorly. I think this interaction might be a part in why Protoss needs to have it's long range AOE: it covers the Zealots and removes the scenario of Terran continuously poking the Protoss army with impunity (See for an example of this Maru in Proleague earlier this year - his relentless pokes essentially force Protoss to take a late third because without a good number of Collosi, Maru kites the army back and forth until there is simply nothing left). Now, with this change in effect, Protoss first of all gets the flexibility to disengage from Terran without taking major losses. This decreases the snowballing effect where Protoss is really never allowed to disengage (one of the reasons we have Recall in it's current form). Protoss harassment will also cost more attention. Without Charge, Zealots won't get free hits in and Terran has an easier time abusing Terrain against Protoss.
As a first noteworthy side effect, this change may help the beloved Templar openings. The aforementioned problem of Terran poking and kiting until there is nothing left to shoot at is greatly reduced by this, because the reliance on long range damage (Psionic Storm) is reduced and can to some extend be compensated for by Photon Overcharge and Immortals when defending to get the Templar transition done. It also helps with suiciding Zealots into the Bio Ball to drag Mines, as Marauders won't stop them dead in their tracks.
For other matchups, in PvP I cannot estimate the effects. On one hand, Zealots will move faster through Time Warp, but they will usually be more clumped up against Archons, unless split up ahead of time. The initial clash of Zealots into army will occur a second later because the armies do not activate Charge. This may have as a result that heavy Zealot armies get somewhat less popular. On the other hand, in extended engagements and for flanking, Zealots will be better.
I don't expect big effects for PvZ. Charge Zealots are not a popular go-to for the main army. They may see a slight increase in utility as they are no longer pinned by Fungal Growth. They will also be faster when Protoss wants to dump Zealots into spread out Zerg bases and they may be stronger against a Swarm Host Zerg (when well microed). Zerg, on the other hand, should have an easier time defending against them as they no longer automatically shuffle the high health Zealots forwards.
I'm interesting in hearing other opinions on the matter. I want to emphasize again: Zealot Charge upgrade is changed to Zealot Leg Enhancement, which increases Movement Speed and gives a resistance to spells that effect movement. This is not a buff, nor a nerf, it's a change.
Have a good day, Toastie
TLDR: Zealot Charge changed to a new upgrade than increases movement speed and gives a resistance to movement reduction (Concussive Shells, Fungal etc). Pro: Zealots are more microable, Protoss army can disengage better, may be a buff to Templar Openers, faster attacking at distant locations. Con: Zealots require more attention because they no longer shuffle when kited, they autosurround slower.
don't understand where this myth that gateway units are weak comes from. actually they are much stronger than barrack units or hatch tech units.
-Mass chargelots are insane vs bio and an extremely strong harassment unit. -mass blinkstalker are probably the monocomposition that has won the most games by itself. -well placed forcefields by the sentry can make your army MUCH more cost effective. -DTs are maybe the best harrassment unit in the game. -HTs can evaporate an army in seconds with storms and can make other spellcasters completely useless with 1 click. -Archons are very cost-efficient melee monster that can tank an incredible amount of damage.
if you really think these units need a buff, then I'm really glad blizzard doesn't listen to people with such a lack of game knowledge. Of course you have to transition at one point to collossi but every race has to transition at one point. probably you just want play every game with pure gateway units and never build a robo or a stargate but that isn't how sc2 works. In sc2 there are different tech trees that have different uses and you can't just stay on one techtree the entire game. Even terran has to incorporate starport or factory units to support their core units (bio units) but we don't whine that barrack units suck.
Additional new Protoss unit We haven’t finalized design on a new Protoss unit, but it’s something we’re heavily focused on these days. We have general concepts and ideas we’re trying, but haven’t nailed down something solid yet. Generally speaking, we’re experimenting with allowing Protoss to play a more aggressive containment game in the early game by utilizing a new unit. We feel this will give some more variety to Protoss openings, since Protoss generally tends to play defensively. If you have good ideas or feedback in this area, it would be appreciated.
We’re currently exploring a very different type of harassing unit. We don’t yet have the specific details yet but these are the things we’re thinking right now:
Early game unit Slow movement speed (to differentiate from other early game harassers) Phase shift ability. Unit goes completely invulnerable for X seconds on a short cooldown (to be able to move in and harass and to get out in a different way compared to say like Blink harass) Doesn’t counter core units for cost (idea of having a core unit that goes invulnerable just sounds like it would be too much. Plus with this effective ability, this unit could still be a great harasser even if it’s not effective for cost). But like we said, we’re still in the concept/discussion phase of this unit so additional feedback is welcome. It could even be suggestions on a completely different unit that the Protoss can use to make the game more exciting for everyone.
Mothership Core’s Photon Overcharge ability now hits both ground and air again. Because of the resource changes we’re currently testing, Protoss is most impacted as they’re the ones that struggle the most with taking additional bases. We felt this nerf was no longer needed because to this.
Immortal Barrier ability is an upgrade The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units. We’re currently testing having the ability as an upgrade. We may need to make tweaks to improve the ability if needed, but this is something we’ll look at going forward.
We're going backwards and/or in the wrong direction here. I don't understand what you're doing. LotV is your last chance to finally fix the massive mess that is Protoss since the first days of WoL. Last chance. After that it will be too late.
I read stuff about 300 gas (lol) Disruptors. I read stuff about PO still in the game, Warpgate still there, Colossi still there. I read stuff about a new "harass unit" when Oracles, Phoenixes, DTs, Prisms, Zealot raids and Blink Stalkers already exist. I read stuff about another Faerie Dragon Phase shift ability. I still witness that dangerous obsession about Protoss having a braindead dedicated anti-Tank unit. All of this needs to go. Protoss does not need any more weird, wonky niche units that eventually all end up revolving- around the same bad old deathball model. Protoss needs to be normalized.
Before thinking about new stuff, fix what already exists. You can't build anything on top of fragile foundations. Why not start by reworking those:
WARPGATE Removed as the standard Protoss production. The Warpgate upgrade can be moved anywhere. Pylons cannot receive warp-ins anymore; see below with Tempests.
MSC - Removed from the game; this unit is a disgrace to Starcraft. The HotS Mothership can stay for teamgames/lategame PvX.
Protoss should be able to operate without PO. PvT is much better without this, and with Warpgate gone PvP should be fine.
ZEALOT - "Charge" ability removed. - Passive boost to movement speed increased (final value would be anywhere from 3.5 to 4). - Damage point and attack backswing animation can be changed at will to balance the interaction between Zealots chasing bio or Roaches hitting & running.
Behold the birth of Zealot micro in large engagements.
SENTRY - Removed from the Gateway (still unlocked by Core though). - Each Nexus can now build one Sentry that remains attached to that Nexus. - Same abilities as before, except Guardian Shield is a targetted AoE spell.
This way, Protoss would have a compensation in defender's advantage, but not one that is abusable since it would remain around their bases—and around their bases alone. Cost (resources/supply) can be tweaked.
IMMORTAL - Removed from the Robotics. - Hardened Shields removed. - Added to the Gateway as a 80/100, 2 supply, 4 or 4.5 range unit dealing 20 damage to Armored targets. - 100/100 range upgrade at Core tech, increasing the final range to 6. Tweak search time accordingly.
STALKER Can now be further differentiated from the Immortal-Dragoon: cost, production time, damage point, attack, Blink, movement speed—everything can be tweaked to make it more like a mobile raider now that another unit fulfills the role of a stronger and sturdier medium-ranged shooter. Besides, the bad synergy with the MSC has been broken and the snowballing effect of Warpgate reinforcements are no longer there, so there is actually much more freedom to change the unit.
ARCHON - No more bonus damage against biological targets. - Damage changed to 30 + 3 against everything.
Maybe implement some kind of semi-gliding shot, i.e. the Archon doesn't fully decelerate before attacking (so an issued order at this time can make him keep better with retreating ranged units). Can also lower the damage point so it has better synergy with Prisms.
HIGH TEMPLAR - Storm damage changed from 80 damage over 4 seconds (20 dps) to 90 damage over 6 seconds (15 dps).
Reasoning: - Strong but slightly less devastative against light infantry; - Better zoning power; - Better against medium/large targets such as Roaches, Marauders, Protoss units overall; - Better Storm drops against workers; - Better against stationary targets such as Sieged Tanks or Lurkers.
DARK SHRINE Removed from the game. Dark Templars are unlocked by the Templar archives. Remember, they're no longer being warped in or near your base; no more low-skill fluke wins with random DT rushes. Besides, it would add clarity to the game: no one would proxy a building that important in a dark corner of the map. As a result, Dark Templars could probably be made slightly cheaper (cost and/or production). Also adds harassing options to the Templar tech.
COLOSSUS
On November 11 2014 21:19 TheDwf wrote: That's nice, but instead of nerfing they should completely remake it. The Colossus suffers from everything that is wrong in SC2: supply inflation, anticonceptual unit (= artillery without the weaknesses of an artillery), poor microability, horrible interactions, exponential growth of firepower leading to deathball play...
- Supply should be reduced from 6 to 4. - Cost should be decreased (e. g. 200/150); same for the range upgrade if it's kept (100/100 or 150/150). The range should be anywhere from 7-8 (native, depending on the existence of a range upgrade or not) to 9-10 (with the upgrade). - Decrease production time. - Decrease mobility (remove cliffwalking, decrease movement speed). This is a piece of artillery and in some situations it arrives faster than regular "infantry" ... Besides, it would promote Prism usage (which, by the way, should not get this weird distance lifting, there's a reason dropships have to be close to the target they pick...). - Decrease attack speed. - Change damage accordingly; of course it should still slaughter low hit points targets such as workers, Marines, Zerglings and keep a good efficiency against medium hit point targets such as Marauders, Roaches, etc. - Change the form of the splash. Instead of a line that naturally spouses the enemy concave, promoting a-move instead of focusing (micro), change it to a normal impact like the Siege Tank or the Reaver so that hitting clumps is rewarded. - Lose the vulnerability to anti-air. The shift focus contest between Corruptors/Vikings and Stalkers to determine how long Colossi are going to live is insanely bland. Not only this allows a much needed reworking of Corruptors and Vikings, but it also breaks the fact the same anti-air simultaneously deals with Prisms and Colossi and Carriers. - Thanks to this we can decrease hit points now that they're no longer vulnerable to medium or long distance anti-air. Artillery should be fragile. - Of course it would no longer hover over other units (end of the aesthetically horrible cluster of units) nor give air vision, since it's no longer consider an air unit.
WARP PRISM - Renamed War Prism. - Removed Phase Mode. No more possibilities to warp anything. - 80/80, 200 minerals, 40 seconds. - Increase acceleration (important). - Increase movespeed slightly, to 3 or 3.25.
No picking from the other side of the universe gimmick; just a basic, functional Shuttle. Remember that this Protoss is no longer heavily dependent on robo production time (and thus can afford more Observers and/or Prisms). Terrans or Zergs would also no longer build anti-air (Vikings, Corruptors) from the get-go because Colossi would no longer be an air unit. An accelerated energy regeneration upgrade for its cargo could also be tested for better synergy with Archon drops (?).
ORACLE Should decrease the cost (resources/supply), slightly increase range and free Terran from the 6 Marines constraint in early game PvT (should be down to 4-5); the effect of an Oracle on an unprotected mineral line should be weaker. Revelation is interesting but it should be mechanically more demanding (i.e. the spell should cost 25 mana and the effect should not last one minute to begin with). The Stasis stuff seems interesting and could be used to set tactical traps, but it should not last 3 years nor affect 50 units at the same time either.
CARRIER - Increase native armor by 1. - Decrease production time by 10-15 seconds. Interceptors need to be more robust. They should have a single attack and not a double one (e. g. 8x1 or 9x1 instead of 5x2 as of now). They should regenerate when coming back to the Carrier. I don't know if the leash micro has been properly implemented—didn't they put a half-arsed variant?
TEMPEST Now that the Carrier has finally reclaimed its capital ship role with a siege component, the Tempest can get a new identity and be the support of the "teleporting race" theme with Recall/Warpgate. There you can go with an actual 300 gas cost, because it fits the theme of a powerful lategame air unit! You could for instance implement:
- Recall: 125 energy, teleports 6 units beneath the Tempest. - Phase mode: 100 energy, the Tempest can warp gate units like the current Prism does.
Remove Medivac boost (no more PO or Warpgate, huge positive effect on TvT); Mines reworked as 1 supply zoning unit (support instead of core, Tanks would have to come back in TvZ); Hellbats removed/weakened (mech should not have an easy counter to Zealot; also would fix a bit the bio vs mech relationship in HotS); Remove muta regen (so there is a non-Phoenixes solution to mutas; positive effects on ZvT); Keep an eye on Roaches max and the impact of Speedlings on early game ZvP (since there are no more Sentries).
CONSEQUENCES: - A normalized race freed from the deathball syndrome; - Possibilities of a standard game play based around multitasking and harassment; - Much higher microability of all standard units; - Combined with the disparition of Warpgate timings and the increased complexity of positioning (no more warp-ins to salvage mistakes) and management rally, the skill floor of the race would be considerably increased; - There would be diversity in TvP!
Depth in simplicity please. Come on Blizzard, make Protoss the race of proud and fiery warriors it deserves to be!
On December 19 2014 01:40 Charoisaur wrote: don't understand where this myth that gateway units are weak comes from. actually they are much stronger than barrack units or hatch tech units.
-Mass chargelots are insane vs bio and an extremely strong harassment unit. -mass blinkstalker are probably the monocomposition that has won the most games by itself. -well placed forcefields by the sentry can make your army MUCH more cost effective. -DTs are maybe the best harrassment unit in the game. -HTs can evaporate an army in seconds with storms and can make other spellcasters completely useless with 1 click. -Archons are very cost-efficient melee monster that can tank an incredible amount of damage.
if you really think these units need a buff, then I'm really glad blizzard doesn't listen to people with such a lack of game knowledge. Of course you have to transition at one point to collossi but every race has to transition at one point. probably you just want play every game with pure gateway units and never build a robo or a stargate but that isn't how sc2 works. In sc2 there are different tech trees that have different uses and you can't just stay on one techtree the entire game. Even terran has to incorporate starport or factory units to support their core units (bio units) but we don't whine that barrack units suck.
You should look into a career in comedy... Please go play a game right now and just 4gate a zerg. Any decent zerg player will go 15 hatch and beat it with pure lings.
Terrans don't whine about bio being weak because bio is not weak... How can you possibly argue that bio is weak when terrans can fight almost every composition with MMMM?
On December 19 2014 01:39 SC2Toastie wrote: TLDR: Zealot Charge changed to a new upgrade than increases movement speed and gives a resistance to movement reduction (Concussive Shells, Fungal etc). Pro: Zealots are more microable, Protoss army can disengage better, may be a buff to Templar Openers, faster attacking at distant locations. Con: Zealots require more attention because they no longer shuffle when kited, they autosurround slower.
I don't think BW-style leg enhancements are going to solve all the problems zealots have in SC2. Firstly I think it's unfair to just make zealots completely immune to concussive shells for the rest of the game when it's pretty clear that concussive shells are targeted against zealots in the TvP matchup. You may as well remove concussive shells from the game. Beyond that, you also have widow mines, colossus, hellbats, and balling AI (which makes ranged units more DPS efficient than melee in large armies). Pure gateway/twilight comps just have no way of dealing with any of those things.
On December 19 2014 01:40 Charoisaur wrote: don't understand where this myth that gateway units are weak comes from. actually they are much stronger than barrack units or hatch tech units.
-Mass chargelots are insane vs bio and an extremely strong harassment unit. -mass blinkstalker are probably the monocomposition that has won the most games by itself. -well placed forcefields by the sentry can make your army MUCH more cost effective. -DTs are maybe the best harrassment unit in the game. -HTs can evaporate an army in seconds with storms and can make other spellcasters completely useless with 1 click. -Archons are very cost-efficient melee monster that can tank an incredible amount of damage.
if you really think these units need a buff, then I'm really glad blizzard doesn't listen to people with such a lack of game knowledge. Of course you have to transition at one point to collossi but every race has to transition at one point. probably you just want play every game with pure gateway units and never build a robo or a stargate but that isn't how sc2 works. In sc2 there are different tech trees that have different uses and you can't just stay on one techtree the entire game. Even terran has to incorporate starport or factory units to support their core units (bio units) but we don't whine that barrack units suck.
You should look into a career in comedy... Please go play a game right now and just 4gate a zerg. Any decent zerg player will go 15 hatch and beat it with pure lings.
Terrans don't whine about bio being weak because bio is not weak... How can you possibly argue that bio is weak when terrans can fight almost every composition with MMMM?
MMMM includes units from the factory and the starport (medivac and mine). terran techs to medivacs and mines and zerg techs to hydras or mutas; Only protoss seems to have a problem with teching to higher tier units;
Additional new Protoss unit We haven’t finalized design on a new Protoss unit, but it’s something we’re heavily focused on these days. We have general concepts and ideas we’re trying, but haven’t nailed down something solid yet. Generally speaking, we’re experimenting with allowing Protoss to play a more aggressive containment game in the early game by utilizing a new unit. We feel this will give some more variety to Protoss openings, since Protoss generally tends to play defensively. If you have good ideas or feedback in this area, it would be appreciated.
We’re currently exploring a very different type of harassing unit. We don’t yet have the specific details yet but these are the things we’re thinking right now:
Early game unit Slow movement speed (to differentiate from other early game harassers) Phase shift ability. Unit goes completely invulnerable for X seconds on a short cooldown (to be able to move in and harass and to get out in a different way compared to say like Blink harass) Doesn’t counter core units for cost (idea of having a core unit that goes invulnerable just sounds like it would be too much. Plus with this effective ability, this unit could still be a great harasser even if it’s not effective for cost). But like we said, we’re still in the concept/discussion phase of this unit so additional feedback is welcome. It could even be suggestions on a completely different unit that the Protoss can use to make the game more exciting for everyone.
Mothership Core’s Photon Overcharge ability now hits both ground and air again. Because of the resource changes we’re currently testing, Protoss is most impacted as they’re the ones that struggle the most with taking additional bases. We felt this nerf was no longer needed because to this.
Immortal Barrier ability is an upgrade The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units. We’re currently testing having the ability as an upgrade. We may need to make tweaks to improve the ability if needed, but this is something we’ll look at going forward.
We're going backwards and/or in the wrong direction here. I don't understand what you're doing. LotV is your last chance to finally fix the massive mess that is Protoss since the first days of WoL. Last chance. After that it will be too late.
I read stuff about 300 gas (lol) Disruptors. I read stuff about PO still in the game, Warpgate still there, Colossi still there. I read stuff about a new "harass unit" when Oracles, Phoenixes, DTs, Prisms, Zealot raids and Blink Stalkers already exist. I read stuff about another Faerie Dragon Phase shift ability. I still witness that dangerous obsession about Protoss having a braindead dedicated anti-Tank unit. All of this needs to go. Protoss does not need any more weird, wonky niche units that eventually all end up revolving- around the same bad old deathball model. Protoss needs to be normalized.
Before thinking about new stuff, fix what already exists. You can't build anything on top of fragile foundations. Why not start by reworking those:
WARPGATE Removed as the standard Protoss production. The Warpgate upgrade can be moved anywhere. Pylons cannot receive warp-ins anymore; see below with Tempests.
MSC - Removed from the game; this unit is a disgrace to Starcraft. The HotS Mothership can stay for teamgames/lategame PvX.
Protoss should be able to operate without PO. PvT is much better without this, and with Warpgate gone PvP should be fine.
ZEALOT - "Charge" ability removed. - Passive boost to movement speed increased (final value would be anywhere from 3.5 to 4). - Damage point and attack backswing animation can be changed at will to balance the interaction between Zealots chasing bio or Roaches hitting & running.
Behold the birth of Zealot micro in large engagements.
SENTRY - Removed from the Gateway (still unlocked by Core though). - Each Nexus can now build one Sentry that remains attached to that Nexus. - Same abilities as before, except Guardian Shield is a targetted AoE spell.
This way, Protoss would have a compensation in defender's advantage, but not one that is abusable since it would remain around their bases—and around their bases alone. Cost (resources/supply) can be tweaked.
IMMORTAL - Removed from the Robotics. - Hardened Shields removed. - Added to the Gateway as a 80/100, 2 supply, 4 or 4.5 range unit dealing 20 damage to Armored targets. - 100/100 range upgrade at Core tech, increasing the final range to 6. Tweak search time accordingly.
STALKER Can now be further differentiated from the Immortal-Dragoon: cost, production time, damage point, attack, Blink, movement speed—everything can be tweaked to make it more like a mobile raider now that another unit fulfills the role of a stronger and sturdier medium-ranged shooter. Besides, the bad synergy with the MSC has been broken and the snowballing effect of Warpgate reinforcements are no longer there, so there is actually much more freedom to change the unit.
ARCHON - No more bonus damage against biological targets. - Damage changed to 30 + 3 against everything.
Maybe implement some kind of semi-gliding shot, i.e. the Archon doesn't fully decelerate before attacking (so an issued order at this time can make him keep better with retreating ranged units). Can also lower the damage point so it has better synergy with Prisms.
HIGH TEMPLAR - Storm damage changed from 80 damage over 4 seconds (20 dps) to 90 damage over 6 seconds (15 dps).
Reasoning: - Strong but slightly less devastative against light infantry; - Better zoning power; - Better against medium/large targets such as Roaches, Marauders, Protoss units overall; - Better Storm drops against workers; - Better against stationary targets such as Sieged Tanks or Lurkers.
DARK SHRINE Removed from the game. Dark Templars are unlocked by the Templar archives. Remember, they're no longer being warped in or near your base; no more low-skill fluke wins with random DT rushes. Besides, it would add clarity to the game: no one would proxy a building that important in a dark corner of the map. As a result, Dark Templars could probably be made slightly cheaper (cost and/or production). Also adds harassing options to the Templar tech.
On November 11 2014 21:19 TheDwf wrote: That's nice, but instead of nerfing they should completely remake it. The Colossus suffers from everything that is wrong in SC2: supply inflation, anticonceptual unit (= artillery without the weaknesses of an artillery), poor microability, horrible interactions, exponential growth of firepower leading to deathball play...
- Supply should be reduced from 6 to 4. - Cost should be decreased (e. g. 200/150); same for the range upgrade if it's kept (100/100 or 150/150). The range should be anywhere from 7-8 (native, depending on the existence of a range upgrade or not) to 9-10 (with the upgrade). - Decrease production time. - Decrease mobility (remove cliffwalking, decrease movement speed). This is a piece of artillery and in some situations it arrives faster than regular "infantry" ... Besides, it would promote Prism usage (which, by the way, should not get this weird distance lifting, there's a reason dropships have to be close to the target they pick...). - Decrease attack speed. - Change damage accordingly; of course it should still slaughter low hit points targets such as workers, Marines, Zerglings and keep a good efficiency against medium hit point targets such as Marauders, Roaches, etc. - Change the form of the splash. Instead of a line that naturally spouses the enemy concave, promoting a-move instead of focusing (micro), change it to a normal impact like the Siege Tank or the Reaver so that hitting clumps is rewarded. - Lose the vulnerability to anti-air. The shift focus contest between Corruptors/Vikings and Stalkers to determine how long Colossi are going to live is insanely bland. Not only this allows a much needed reworking of Corruptors and Vikings, but it also breaks the fact the same anti-air simultaneously deals with Prisms and Colossi and Carriers. - Thanks to this we can decrease hit points now that they're no longer vulnerable to medium or long distance anti-air. Artillery should be fragile. - Of course it would no longer hover over other units (end of the aesthetically horrible cluster of units) nor give air vision, since it's no longer consider an air unit.
WARP PRISM - Renamed War Prism. - Removed Phase Mode. No more possibilities to warp anything. - 80/80, 200 minerals, 40 seconds. - Increase acceleration (important). - Increase movespeed slightly, to 3 or 3.25.
No picking from the other side of the universe gimmick; just a basic, functional Shuttle. Remember that this Protoss is no longer heavily dependent on robo production time (and thus can afford more Observers and/or Prisms). Terrans or Zergs would also no longer build anti-air (Vikings, Corruptors) from the get-go because Colossi would no longer be an air unit. An accelerated energy regeneration upgrade for its cargo could also be tested for better synergy with Archon drops (?).
ORACLE Should decrease the cost (resources/supply), slightly increase range and free Terran from the 6 Marines constraint in early game PvT (should be down to 4-5); the effect of an Oracle on an unprotected mineral line should be weaker. Revelation is interesting but it should be mechanically more demanding (i.e. the spell should cost 25 mana and the effect should not last one minute to begin with). The Stasis stuff seems interesting and could be used to set tactical traps, but it should not last 3 years nor affect 50 units at the same time either.
CARRIER - Increase native armor by 1. - Decrease production time by 10-15 seconds. Interceptors need to be more robust. They should have a single attack and not a double one (e. g. 8x1 or 9x1 instead of 5x2 as of now). They should regenerate when coming back to the Carrier. I don't know if the leash micro has been properly implemented—didn't they put a half-arsed variant?
TEMPEST Now that the Carrier has finally reclaimed its capital ship role with a siege component, the Tempest can get a new identity and be the support of the "teleporting race" theme with Recall/Warpgate. There you can go with an actual 300 gas cost, because it fits the theme of a powerful lategame air unit! You could for instance implement:
- Recall: 125 energy, teleports 6 units beneath the Tempest. - Phase mode: 100 energy, the Tempest can warp gate units like the current Prism does.
Remove Medivac boost (no more PO or Warpgate, huge positive effect on TvT); Mines reworked as 1 supply zoning unit (support instead of core, Tanks would have to come back in TvZ); Hellbats removed/weakened (mech should not have an easy counter to Zealot; also would fix a bit the bio vs mech relationship in HotS); Remove muta regen (so there is a non-Phoenixes solution to mutas; positive effects on ZvT); Keep an eye on Roaches max and the impact of Speedlings on early game ZvP (since there are no more Sentries).
CONSEQUENCES: - A normalized race freed from the deathball syndrome; - Possibilities of a standard game play based around multitasking and harassment; - Much higher microability of all standard units; - Combined with the disparition of Warpgate timings and the increased complexity of positioning (no more warp-ins to salvage mistakes) and management rally, the skill floor of the race would be considerably increased; - There would be diversity in TvP!
Depth in simplicity please. Come on Blizzard, make Protoss the race of proud and fiery warriors it deserves to be!
This post is hilarious. The opening made it clear it would be full of ridiculous changes, but I was still surprised. Building Sentries from a Nexus that are forever tied to that one Nexus, really?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We’ve gone through lots of iterations on various units and abilities, and this is just a snapshot of where we are at right now.
Changes to the HERC The main things we didn’t like about the HERC were:
Too much overlap with Hellbats Grapple ability isn’t really needed for the unit to function well. Changes:
Tech level changed to Armory requirement No longer deals splash damage No longer effective for cost Grapple is to target ground When landing from grapple, knocks enemy units in that area back
One of our goals with the HERC is to help give Terran an advantage vs Zerglings and Banelings and encourage the Zerg player to tech switch. By adding a knockback to Grapple, the HERC can counter Banelings in a way that makes the ability more core. And while these changes clearly fixed the two main issues we had with the HERC, it also brings in new challenges with the unit. If Grapple is too spammable, it takes too much control away from the opponent. We’re seeing that it feels silly because players using HERCs can shut down the ability for micro on the opposing side by timing the knockbacks correctly. In general, what we want is the potential for micro on both sides, and this new HERC was going against that philosophy. Therefore, we’re currently not in a good place on the HERC, and we’re working towards a better solution.
Would be good if you tried to look at zergling/baneling/zealot here and try and imrpove those units so they can micro more? This way it could maybe work well with a pushback of herc.
On December 19 2014 02:06 Charoisaur wrote: MMMM includes units from the factory and the starport (medivac and mine). terran techs to medivacs and mines and zerg techs to hydras or mutas; Only protoss seems to have a problem with teching to higher tier units;
Well *my* suggestion wasn't to make mass tier 1 zealots unstoppable. I was proposing a new tier 3 templar tech unit to support zealots and stalkers. This would be the equivalent of starport tech. Just because it comes from a gateway doesn't mean you're not teching.
On December 19 2014 01:40 Charoisaur wrote: don't understand where this myth that gateway units are weak comes from. actually they are much stronger than barrack units or hatch tech units.
-Mass chargelots are insane vs bio and an extremely strong harassment unit. -mass blinkstalker are probably the monocomposition that has won the most games by itself. -well placed forcefields by the sentry can make your army MUCH more cost effective. -DTs are maybe the best harrassment unit in the game. -HTs can evaporate an army in seconds with storms and can make other spellcasters completely useless with 1 click. -Archons are very cost-efficient melee monster that can tank an incredible amount of damage.
if you really think these units need a buff, then I'm really glad blizzard doesn't listen to people with such a lack of game knowledge. Of course you have to transition at one point to collossi but every race has to transition at one point. probably you just want play every game with pure gateway units and never build a robo or a stargate but that isn't how sc2 works. In sc2 there are different tech trees that have different uses and you can't just stay on one techtree the entire game. Even terran has to incorporate starport or factory units to support their core units (bio units) but we don't whine that barrack units suck.
You should look into a career in comedy... Please go play a game right now and just 4gate a zerg. Any decent zerg player will go 15 hatch and beat it with pure lings.
Terrans don't whine about bio being weak because bio is not weak... How can you possibly argue that bio is weak when terrans can fight almost every composition with MMMM?
MMMM includes units from the factory and the starport (medivac and mine). terran techs to medivacs and mines and zerg techs to hydras or mutas; Only protoss seems to have a problem with teching to higher tier units;
I agree with your point about gateway units not being weak, but they aren't costefficient in equal cost battles. And the units Protoss needs to combat costefficiently all unlock quite later than mines/hydras/mutas/medivacs etc. Which makes for unfun playstyles in which the Protoss somehow needs to rush hightech and turtle until he gets such units on the battlefield. It's not really that gateway units are weak, but there is no real midtier unit for Protoss that can sustain in a macro game. Such a midtier unit could be gateway, stargate or robo, it's not a necessity to be gateway.
On December 19 2014 01:39 SC2Toastie wrote: TLDR: Zealot Charge changed to a new upgrade than increases movement speed and gives a resistance to movement reduction (Concussive Shells, Fungal etc). Pro: Zealots are more microable, Protoss army can disengage better, may be a buff to Templar Openers, faster attacking at distant locations. Con: Zealots require more attention because they no longer shuffle when kited, they autosurround slower.
I don't think BW-style leg enhancements are going to solve all the problems zealots have in SC2. Firstly I think it's unfair to just make zealots completely immune to concussive shells for the rest of the game when it's pretty clear that concussive shells are targeted against zealots in the TvP matchup. You may as well remove concussive shells from the game. Beyond that, you also have widow mines, colossus, hellbats, and balling AI (which makes ranged units more DPS efficient than melee in large armies). Pure gateway/twilight comps just have no way of dealing with any of those things.
Yes, and there is also people that only think in hyperbole that get forum accounts. Firstly I think it's unfair to just make zealots completely immune to concussive shells for the rest of the game when it's pretty clear that concussive shells are targeted against zealots in the TvP matchup. The second statement is false and so the first statement is unexplained. You may as well remove concussive shells from the game. Concussive Shells affects more than just Zealots lol you also have widow mines Explained that in my post
colossus Mentioned
hellbats Common sense aka Archons?
balling AI (which makes ranged units more DPS efficient than melee in large armies). ?????????????
Pure gateway/twilight comps just have no way of dealing with any of those things. That's exactly why it was the preferred style in WOL AMIRITE??
The fact I included a TLDR doesn't mean you can respond like this without reading the rest.
Additional new Protoss unit We haven’t finalized design on a new Protoss unit, but it’s something we’re heavily focused on these days. We have general concepts and ideas we’re trying, but haven’t nailed down something solid yet. Generally speaking, we’re experimenting with allowing Protoss to play a more aggressive containment game in the early game by utilizing a new unit. We feel this will give some more variety to Protoss openings, since Protoss generally tends to play defensively. If you have good ideas or feedback in this area, it would be appreciated.
We’re currently exploring a very different type of harassing unit. We don’t yet have the specific details yet but these are the things we’re thinking right now:
Early game unit Slow movement speed (to differentiate from other early game harassers) Phase shift ability. Unit goes completely invulnerable for X seconds on a short cooldown (to be able to move in and harass and to get out in a different way compared to say like Blink harass) Doesn’t counter core units for cost (idea of having a core unit that goes invulnerable just sounds like it would be too much. Plus with this effective ability, this unit could still be a great harasser even if it’s not effective for cost). But like we said, we’re still in the concept/discussion phase of this unit so additional feedback is welcome. It could even be suggestions on a completely different unit that the Protoss can use to make the game more exciting for everyone.
Mothership Core’s Photon Overcharge ability now hits both ground and air again. Because of the resource changes we’re currently testing, Protoss is most impacted as they’re the ones that struggle the most with taking additional bases. We felt this nerf was no longer needed because to this.
Immortal Barrier ability is an upgrade The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units. We’re currently testing having the ability as an upgrade. We may need to make tweaks to improve the ability if needed, but this is something we’ll look at going forward.
We're going backwards and/or in the wrong direction here. I don't understand what you're doing. LotV is your last chance to finally fix the massive mess that is Protoss since the first days of WoL. Last chance. After that it will be too late.
I read stuff about 300 gas (lol) Disruptors. I read stuff about PO still in the game, Warpgate still there, Colossi still there. I read stuff about a new "harass unit" when Oracles, Phoenixes, DTs, Prisms, Zealot raids and Blink Stalkers already exist. I read stuff about another Faerie Dragon Phase shift ability. I still witness that dangerous obsession about Protoss having a braindead dedicated anti-Tank unit. All of this needs to go. Protoss does not need any more weird, wonky niche units that eventually all end up revolving- around the same bad old deathball model. Protoss needs to be normalized.
Before thinking about new stuff, fix what already exists. You can't build anything on top of fragile foundations. Why not start by reworking those:
WARPGATE Removed as the standard Protoss production. The Warpgate upgrade can be moved anywhere. Pylons cannot receive warp-ins anymore; see below with Tempests.
MSC - Removed from the game; this unit is a disgrace to Starcraft. The HotS Mothership can stay for teamgames/lategame PvX.
Protoss should be able to operate without PO. PvT is much better without this, and with Warpgate gone PvP should be fine.
ZEALOT - "Charge" ability removed. - Passive boost to movement speed increased (final value would be anywhere from 3.5 to 4). - Damage point and attack backswing animation can be changed at will to balance the interaction between Zealots chasing bio or Roaches hitting & running.
Behold the birth of Zealot micro in large engagements.
SENTRY - Removed from the Gateway (still unlocked by Core though). - Each Nexus can now build one Sentry that remains attached to that Nexus. - Same abilities as before, except Guardian Shield is a targetted AoE spell.
This way, Protoss would have a compensation in defender's advantage, but not one that is abusable since it would remain around their bases—and around their bases alone. Cost (resources/supply) can be tweaked.
IMMORTAL - Removed from the Robotics. - Hardened Shields removed. - Added to the Gateway as a 80/100, 2 supply, 4 or 4.5 range unit dealing 20 damage to Armored targets. - 100/100 range upgrade at Core tech, increasing the final range to 6. Tweak search time accordingly.
STALKER Can now be further differentiated from the Immortal-Dragoon: cost, production time, damage point, attack, Blink, movement speed—everything can be tweaked to make it more like a mobile raider now that another unit fulfills the role of a stronger and sturdier medium-ranged shooter. Besides, the bad synergy with the MSC has been broken and the snowballing effect of Warpgate reinforcements are no longer there, so there is actually much more freedom to change the unit.
ARCHON - No more bonus damage against biological targets. - Damage changed to 30 + 3 against everything.
Maybe implement some kind of semi-gliding shot, i.e. the Archon doesn't fully decelerate before attacking (so an issued order at this time can make him keep better with retreating ranged units). Can also lower the damage point so it has better synergy with Prisms.
HIGH TEMPLAR - Storm damage changed from 80 damage over 4 seconds (20 dps) to 90 damage over 6 seconds (15 dps).
Reasoning: - Strong but slightly less devastative against light infantry; - Better zoning power; - Better against medium/large targets such as Roaches, Marauders, Protoss units overall; - Better Storm drops against workers; - Better against stationary targets such as Sieged Tanks or Lurkers.
DARK SHRINE Removed from the game. Dark Templars are unlocked by the Templar archives. Remember, they're no longer being warped in or near your base; no more low-skill fluke wins with random DT rushes. Besides, it would add clarity to the game: no one would proxy a building that important in a dark corner of the map. As a result, Dark Templars could probably be made slightly cheaper (cost and/or production). Also adds harassing options to the Templar tech.
COLOSSUS
On November 11 2014 21:19 TheDwf wrote: That's nice, but instead of nerfing they should completely remake it. The Colossus suffers from everything that is wrong in SC2: supply inflation, anticonceptual unit (= artillery without the weaknesses of an artillery), poor microability, horrible interactions, exponential growth of firepower leading to deathball play...
- Supply should be reduced from 6 to 4. - Cost should be decreased (e. g. 200/150); same for the range upgrade if it's kept (100/100 or 150/150). The range should be anywhere from 7-8 (native, depending on the existence of a range upgrade or not) to 9-10 (with the upgrade). - Decrease production time. - Decrease mobility (remove cliffwalking, decrease movement speed). This is a piece of artillery and in some situations it arrives faster than regular "infantry" ... Besides, it would promote Prism usage (which, by the way, should not get this weird distance lifting, there's a reason dropships have to be close to the target they pick...). - Decrease attack speed. - Change damage accordingly; of course it should still slaughter low hit points targets such as workers, Marines, Zerglings and keep a good efficiency against medium hit point targets such as Marauders, Roaches, etc. - Change the form of the splash. Instead of a line that naturally spouses the enemy concave, promoting a-move instead of focusing (micro), change it to a normal impact like the Siege Tank or the Reaver so that hitting clumps is rewarded. - Lose the vulnerability to anti-air. The shift focus contest between Corruptors/Vikings and Stalkers to determine how long Colossi are going to live is insanely bland. Not only this allows a much needed reworking of Corruptors and Vikings, but it also breaks the fact the same anti-air simultaneously deals with Prisms and Colossi and Carriers. - Thanks to this we can decrease hit points now that they're no longer vulnerable to medium or long distance anti-air. Artillery should be fragile. - Of course it would no longer hover over other units (end of the aesthetically horrible cluster of units) nor give air vision, since it's no longer consider an air unit.
WARP PRISM - Renamed War Prism. - Removed Phase Mode. No more possibilities to warp anything. - 80/80, 200 minerals, 40 seconds. - Increase acceleration (important). - Increase movespeed slightly, to 3 or 3.25.
No picking from the other side of the universe gimmick; just a basic, functional Shuttle. Remember that this Protoss is no longer heavily dependent on robo production time (and thus can afford more Observers and/or Prisms). Terrans or Zergs would also no longer build anti-air (Vikings, Corruptors) from the get-go because Colossi would no longer be an air unit. An accelerated energy regeneration upgrade for its cargo could also be tested for better synergy with Archon drops (?).
ORACLE Should decrease the cost (resources/supply), slightly increase range and free Terran from the 6 Marines constraint in early game PvT (should be down to 4-5); the effect of an Oracle on an unprotected mineral line should be weaker. Revelation is interesting but it should be mechanically more demanding (i.e. the spell should cost 25 mana and the effect should not last one minute to begin with). The Stasis stuff seems interesting and could be used to set tactical traps, but it should not last 3 years nor affect 50 units at the same time either.
CARRIER - Increase native armor by 1. - Decrease production time by 10-15 seconds. Interceptors need to be more robust. They should have a single attack and not a double one (e. g. 8x1 or 9x1 instead of 5x2 as of now). They should regenerate when coming back to the Carrier. I don't know if the leash micro has been properly implemented—didn't they put a half-arsed variant?
TEMPEST Now that the Carrier has finally reclaimed its capital ship role with a siege component, the Tempest can get a new identity and be the support of the "teleporting race" theme with Recall/Warpgate. There you can go with an actual 300 gas cost, because it fits the theme of a powerful lategame air unit! You could for instance implement:
- Recall: 125 energy, teleports 6 units beneath the Tempest. - Phase mode: 100 energy, the Tempest can warp gate units like the current Prism does.
Remove Medivac boost (no more PO or Warpgate, huge positive effect on TvT); Mines reworked as 1 supply zoning unit (support instead of core, Tanks would have to come back in TvZ); Hellbats removed/weakened (mech should not have an easy counter to Zealot; also would fix a bit the bio vs mech relationship in HotS); Remove muta regen (so there is a non-Phoenixes solution to mutas; positive effects on ZvT); Keep an eye on Roaches max and the impact of Speedlings on early game ZvP (since there are no more Sentries).
CONSEQUENCES: - A normalized race freed from the deathball syndrome; - Possibilities of a standard game play based around multitasking and harassment; - Much higher microability of all standard units; - Combined with the disparition of Warpgate timings and the increased complexity of positioning (no more warp-ins to salvage mistakes) and management rally, the skill floor of the race would be considerably increased; - There would be diversity in TvP!
Depth in simplicity please. Come on Blizzard, make Protoss the race of proud and fiery warriors it deserves to be!
This post is hilarious. The opening made it clear it would be full of ridiculous changes, but I was still surprised. Building Sentries from a Nexus that are forever tied to that one Nexus, really?
This post is hilarious. The fact is it so tiny and short means it must be full of thoughtless ramble, but I was still surprised. Replying to a FUCKING MOUNTAIN OF A POST with 2 silly sentences, really?
Additional new Protoss unit We haven’t finalized design on a new Protoss unit, but it’s something we’re heavily focused on these days. We have general concepts and ideas we’re trying, but haven’t nailed down something solid yet. Generally speaking, we’re experimenting with allowing Protoss to play a more aggressive containment game in the early game by utilizing a new unit. We feel this will give some more variety to Protoss openings, since Protoss generally tends to play defensively. If you have good ideas or feedback in this area, it would be appreciated.
We’re currently exploring a very different type of harassing unit. We don’t yet have the specific details yet but these are the things we’re thinking right now:
Early game unit Slow movement speed (to differentiate from other early game harassers) Phase shift ability. Unit goes completely invulnerable for X seconds on a short cooldown (to be able to move in and harass and to get out in a different way compared to say like Blink harass) Doesn’t counter core units for cost (idea of having a core unit that goes invulnerable just sounds like it would be too much. Plus with this effective ability, this unit could still be a great harasser even if it’s not effective for cost). But like we said, we’re still in the concept/discussion phase of this unit so additional feedback is welcome. It could even be suggestions on a completely different unit that the Protoss can use to make the game more exciting for everyone.
Mothership Core’s Photon Overcharge ability now hits both ground and air again. Because of the resource changes we’re currently testing, Protoss is most impacted as they’re the ones that struggle the most with taking additional bases. We felt this nerf was no longer needed because to this.
Immortal Barrier ability is an upgrade The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units. We’re currently testing having the ability as an upgrade. We may need to make tweaks to improve the ability if needed, but this is something we’ll look at going forward.
We're going backwards and/or in the wrong direction here. I don't understand what you're doing. LotV is your last chance to finally fix the massive mess that is Protoss since the first days of WoL. Last chance. After that it will be too late.
I read stuff about 300 gas (lol) Disruptors. I read stuff about PO still in the game, Warpgate still there, Colossi still there. I read stuff about a new "harass unit" when Oracles, Phoenixes, DTs, Prisms, Zealot raids and Blink Stalkers already exist. I read stuff about another Faerie Dragon Phase shift ability. I still witness that dangerous obsession about Protoss having a braindead dedicated anti-Tank unit. All of this needs to go. Protoss does not need any more weird, wonky niche units that eventually all end up revolving- around the same bad old deathball model. Protoss needs to be normalized.
Before thinking about new stuff, fix what already exists. You can't build anything on top of fragile foundations. Why not start by reworking those:
WARPGATE Removed as the standard Protoss production. The Warpgate upgrade can be moved anywhere. Pylons cannot receive warp-ins anymore; see below with Tempests.
MSC - Removed from the game; this unit is a disgrace to Starcraft. The HotS Mothership can stay for teamgames/lategame PvX.
Protoss should be able to operate without PO. PvT is much better without this, and with Warpgate gone PvP should be fine.
ZEALOT - "Charge" ability removed. - Passive boost to movement speed increased (final value would be anywhere from 3.5 to 4). - Damage point and attack backswing animation can be changed at will to balance the interaction between Zealots chasing bio or Roaches hitting & running.
Behold the birth of Zealot micro in large engagements.
SENTRY - Removed from the Gateway (still unlocked by Core though). - Each Nexus can now build one Sentry that remains attached to that Nexus. - Same abilities as before, except Guardian Shield is a targetted AoE spell.
This way, Protoss would have a compensation in defender's advantage, but not one that is abusable since it would remain around their bases—and around their bases alone. Cost (resources/supply) can be tweaked.
IMMORTAL - Removed from the Robotics. - Hardened Shields removed. - Added to the Gateway as a 80/100, 2 supply, 4 or 4.5 range unit dealing 20 damage to Armored targets. - 100/100 range upgrade at Core tech, increasing the final range to 6. Tweak search time accordingly.
STALKER Can now be further differentiated from the Immortal-Dragoon: cost, production time, damage point, attack, Blink, movement speed—everything can be tweaked to make it more like a mobile raider now that another unit fulfills the role of a stronger and sturdier medium-ranged shooter. Besides, the bad synergy with the MSC has been broken and the snowballing effect of Warpgate reinforcements are no longer there, so there is actually much more freedom to change the unit.
ARCHON - No more bonus damage against biological targets. - Damage changed to 30 + 3 against everything.
Maybe implement some kind of semi-gliding shot, i.e. the Archon doesn't fully decelerate before attacking (so an issued order at this time can make him keep better with retreating ranged units). Can also lower the damage point so it has better synergy with Prisms.
HIGH TEMPLAR - Storm damage changed from 80 damage over 4 seconds (20 dps) to 90 damage over 6 seconds (15 dps).
Reasoning: - Strong but slightly less devastative against light infantry; - Better zoning power; - Better against medium/large targets such as Roaches, Marauders, Protoss units overall; - Better Storm drops against workers; - Better against stationary targets such as Sieged Tanks or Lurkers.
DARK SHRINE Removed from the game. Dark Templars are unlocked by the Templar archives. Remember, they're no longer being warped in or near your base; no more low-skill fluke wins with random DT rushes. Besides, it would add clarity to the game: no one would proxy a building that important in a dark corner of the map. As a result, Dark Templars could probably be made slightly cheaper (cost and/or production). Also adds harassing options to the Templar tech.
COLOSSUS
On November 11 2014 21:19 TheDwf wrote: That's nice, but instead of nerfing they should completely remake it. The Colossus suffers from everything that is wrong in SC2: supply inflation, anticonceptual unit (= artillery without the weaknesses of an artillery), poor microability, horrible interactions, exponential growth of firepower leading to deathball play...
- Supply should be reduced from 6 to 4. - Cost should be decreased (e. g. 200/150); same for the range upgrade if it's kept (100/100 or 150/150). The range should be anywhere from 7-8 (native, depending on the existence of a range upgrade or not) to 9-10 (with the upgrade). - Decrease production time. - Decrease mobility (remove cliffwalking, decrease movement speed). This is a piece of artillery and in some situations it arrives faster than regular "infantry" ... Besides, it would promote Prism usage (which, by the way, should not get this weird distance lifting, there's a reason dropships have to be close to the target they pick...). - Decrease attack speed. - Change damage accordingly; of course it should still slaughter low hit points targets such as workers, Marines, Zerglings and keep a good efficiency against medium hit point targets such as Marauders, Roaches, etc. - Change the form of the splash. Instead of a line that naturally spouses the enemy concave, promoting a-move instead of focusing (micro), change it to a normal impact like the Siege Tank or the Reaver so that hitting clumps is rewarded. - Lose the vulnerability to anti-air. The shift focus contest between Corruptors/Vikings and Stalkers to determine how long Colossi are going to live is insanely bland. Not only this allows a much needed reworking of Corruptors and Vikings, but it also breaks the fact the same anti-air simultaneously deals with Prisms and Colossi and Carriers. - Thanks to this we can decrease hit points now that they're no longer vulnerable to medium or long distance anti-air. Artillery should be fragile. - Of course it would no longer hover over other units (end of the aesthetically horrible cluster of units) nor give air vision, since it's no longer consider an air unit.
WARP PRISM - Renamed War Prism. - Removed Phase Mode. No more possibilities to warp anything. - 80/80, 200 minerals, 40 seconds. - Increase acceleration (important). - Increase movespeed slightly, to 3 or 3.25.
No picking from the other side of the universe gimmick; just a basic, functional Shuttle. Remember that this Protoss is no longer heavily dependent on robo production time (and thus can afford more Observers and/or Prisms). Terrans or Zergs would also no longer build anti-air (Vikings, Corruptors) from the get-go because Colossi would no longer be an air unit. An accelerated energy regeneration upgrade for its cargo could also be tested for better synergy with Archon drops (?).
ORACLE Should decrease the cost (resources/supply), slightly increase range and free Terran from the 6 Marines constraint in early game PvT (should be down to 4-5); the effect of an Oracle on an unprotected mineral line should be weaker. Revelation is interesting but it should be mechanically more demanding (i.e. the spell should cost 25 mana and the effect should not last one minute to begin with). The Stasis stuff seems interesting and could be used to set tactical traps, but it should not last 3 years nor affect 50 units at the same time either.
CARRIER - Increase native armor by 1. - Decrease production time by 10-15 seconds. Interceptors need to be more robust. They should have a single attack and not a double one (e. g. 8x1 or 9x1 instead of 5x2 as of now). They should regenerate when coming back to the Carrier. I don't know if the leash micro has been properly implemented—didn't they put a half-arsed variant?
TEMPEST Now that the Carrier has finally reclaimed its capital ship role with a siege component, the Tempest can get a new identity and be the support of the "teleporting race" theme with Recall/Warpgate. There you can go with an actual 300 gas cost, because it fits the theme of a powerful lategame air unit! You could for instance implement:
- Recall: 125 energy, teleports 6 units beneath the Tempest. - Phase mode: 100 energy, the Tempest can warp gate units like the current Prism does.
Remove Medivac boost (no more PO or Warpgate, huge positive effect on TvT); Mines reworked as 1 supply zoning unit (support instead of core, Tanks would have to come back in TvZ); Hellbats removed/weakened (mech should not have an easy counter to Zealot; also would fix a bit the bio vs mech relationship in HotS); Remove muta regen (so there is a non-Phoenixes solution to mutas; positive effects on ZvT); Keep an eye on Roaches max and the impact of Speedlings on early game ZvP (since there are no more Sentries).
CONSEQUENCES: - A normalized race freed from the deathball syndrome; - Possibilities of a standard game play based around multitasking and harassment; - Much higher microability of all standard units; - Combined with the disparition of Warpgate timings and the increased complexity of positioning (no more warp-ins to salvage mistakes) and management rally, the skill floor of the race would be considerably increased; - There would be diversity in TvP!
Depth in simplicity please. Come on Blizzard, make Protoss the race of proud and fiery warriors it deserves to be!
This post is hilarious. The opening made it clear it would be full of ridiculous changes, but I was still surprised. Building Sentries from a Nexus that are forever tied to that one Nexus, really?
IIRC in some of the Alpha/Beta HotS builds the MSC was tied to a Nexus, but it could warp between Nexi
On December 19 2014 01:40 Charoisaur wrote: don't understand where this myth that gateway units are weak comes from. actually they are much stronger than barrack units or hatch tech units.
-Mass chargelots are insane vs bio and an extremely strong harassment unit. -mass blinkstalker are probably the monocomposition that has won the most games by itself. -well placed forcefields by the sentry can make your army MUCH more cost effective. -DTs are maybe the best harrassment unit in the game. -HTs can evaporate an army in seconds with storms and can make other spellcasters completely useless with 1 click. -Archons are very cost-efficient melee monster that can tank an incredible amount of damage.
if you really think these units need a buff, then I'm really glad blizzard doesn't listen to people with such a lack of game knowledge. Of course you have to transition at one point to collossi but every race has to transition at one point. probably you just want play every game with pure gateway units and never build a robo or a stargate but that isn't how sc2 works. In sc2 there are different tech trees that have different uses and you can't just stay on one techtree the entire game. Even terran has to incorporate starport or factory units to support their core units (bio units) but we don't whine that barrack units suck.
You should look into a career in comedy... Please go play a game right now and just 4gate a zerg. Any decent zerg player will go 15 hatch and beat it with pure lings.
Terrans don't whine about bio being weak because bio is not weak... How can you possibly argue that bio is weak when terrans can fight almost every composition with MMMM?
MMMM includes units from the factory and the starport (medivac and mine). terran techs to medivacs and mines and zerg techs to hydras or mutas; Only protoss seems to have a problem with teching to higher tier units;
I agree with your point about gateway units not being weak, but they aren't costefficient in equal cost battles. And the units Protoss needs to combat costefficiently all unlock quite later than mines/hydras/mutas/medivacs etc. Which makes for unfun playstyles in which the Protoss somehow needs to rush hightech and turtle until he gets such units on the battlefield. It's not really that gateway units are weak, but there is no real midtier unit for Protoss that can sustain in a macro game. Such a midtier unit could be gateway, stargate or robo, it's not a necessity to be gateway.
Well, in pvz lately many players are going mass blinkstalkers in the midgame and tech to collossi later, so i don't think a buff to gateway units is really necessary. For Pvt i agree with you that protoss is forced to rush to collossi, but this is mainly caused by the absurd widow mine +shield damage that makes collossi absolutely necessary. If the +shield damage would be nerfed templar openings would be viable again, which would enable toss to compete with terran with mosly gateway units in the midgame.
Additional new Protoss unit We haven’t finalized design on a new Protoss unit, but it’s something we’re heavily focused on these days. We have general concepts and ideas we’re trying, but haven’t nailed down something solid yet. Generally speaking, we’re experimenting with allowing Protoss to play a more aggressive containment game in the early game by utilizing a new unit. We feel this will give some more variety to Protoss openings, since Protoss generally tends to play defensively. If you have good ideas or feedback in this area, it would be appreciated.
We’re currently exploring a very different type of harassing unit. We don’t yet have the specific details yet but these are the things we’re thinking right now:
Early game unit Slow movement speed (to differentiate from other early game harassers) Phase shift ability. Unit goes completely invulnerable for X seconds on a short cooldown (to be able to move in and harass and to get out in a different way compared to say like Blink harass) Doesn’t counter core units for cost (idea of having a core unit that goes invulnerable just sounds like it would be too much. Plus with this effective ability, this unit could still be a great harasser even if it’s not effective for cost). But like we said, we’re still in the concept/discussion phase of this unit so additional feedback is welcome. It could even be suggestions on a completely different unit that the Protoss can use to make the game more exciting for everyone.
Mothership Core’s Photon Overcharge ability now hits both ground and air again. Because of the resource changes we’re currently testing, Protoss is most impacted as they’re the ones that struggle the most with taking additional bases. We felt this nerf was no longer needed because to this.
Immortal Barrier ability is an upgrade The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units. We’re currently testing having the ability as an upgrade. We may need to make tweaks to improve the ability if needed, but this is something we’ll look at going forward.
We're going backwards and/or in the wrong direction here. I don't understand what you're doing. LotV is your last chance to finally fix the massive mess that is Protoss since the first days of WoL. Last chance. After that it will be too late.
I read stuff about 300 gas (lol) Disruptors. I read stuff about PO still in the game, Warpgate still there, Colossi still there. I read stuff about a new "harass unit" when Oracles, Phoenixes, DTs, Prisms, Zealot raids and Blink Stalkers already exist. I read stuff about another Faerie Dragon Phase shift ability. I still witness that dangerous obsession about Protoss having a braindead dedicated anti-Tank unit. All of this needs to go. Protoss does not need any more weird, wonky niche units that eventually all end up revolving- around the same bad old deathball model. Protoss needs to be normalized.
Before thinking about new stuff, fix what already exists. You can't build anything on top of fragile foundations. Why not start by reworking those:
WARPGATE Removed as the standard Protoss production. The Warpgate upgrade can be moved anywhere. Pylons cannot receive warp-ins anymore; see below with Tempests.
MSC - Removed from the game; this unit is a disgrace to Starcraft. The HotS Mothership can stay for teamgames/lategame PvX.
Protoss should be able to operate without PO. PvT is much better without this, and with Warpgate gone PvP should be fine.
ZEALOT - "Charge" ability removed. - Passive boost to movement speed increased (final value would be anywhere from 3.5 to 4). - Damage point and attack backswing animation can be changed at will to balance the interaction between Zealots chasing bio or Roaches hitting & running.
Behold the birth of Zealot micro in large engagements.
SENTRY - Removed from the Gateway (still unlocked by Core though). - Each Nexus can now build one Sentry that remains attached to that Nexus. - Same abilities as before, except Guardian Shield is a targetted AoE spell.
This way, Protoss would have a compensation in defender's advantage, but not one that is abusable since it would remain around their bases—and around their bases alone. Cost (resources/supply) can be tweaked.
IMMORTAL - Removed from the Robotics. - Hardened Shields removed. - Added to the Gateway as a 80/100, 2 supply, 4 or 4.5 range unit dealing 20 damage to Armored targets. - 100/100 range upgrade at Core tech, increasing the final range to 6. Tweak search time accordingly.
STALKER Can now be further differentiated from the Immortal-Dragoon: cost, production time, damage point, attack, Blink, movement speed—everything can be tweaked to make it more like a mobile raider now that another unit fulfills the role of a stronger and sturdier medium-ranged shooter. Besides, the bad synergy with the MSC has been broken and the snowballing effect of Warpgate reinforcements are no longer there, so there is actually much more freedom to change the unit.
ARCHON - No more bonus damage against biological targets. - Damage changed to 30 + 3 against everything.
Maybe implement some kind of semi-gliding shot, i.e. the Archon doesn't fully decelerate before attacking (so an issued order at this time can make him keep better with retreating ranged units). Can also lower the damage point so it has better synergy with Prisms.
HIGH TEMPLAR - Storm damage changed from 80 damage over 4 seconds (20 dps) to 90 damage over 6 seconds (15 dps).
Reasoning: - Strong but slightly less devastative against light infantry; - Better zoning power; - Better against medium/large targets such as Roaches, Marauders, Protoss units overall; - Better Storm drops against workers; - Better against stationary targets such as Sieged Tanks or Lurkers.
DARK SHRINE Removed from the game. Dark Templars are unlocked by the Templar archives. Remember, they're no longer being warped in or near your base; no more low-skill fluke wins with random DT rushes. Besides, it would add clarity to the game: no one would proxy a building that important in a dark corner of the map. As a result, Dark Templars could probably be made slightly cheaper (cost and/or production). Also adds harassing options to the Templar tech.
On November 11 2014 21:19 TheDwf wrote: That's nice, but instead of nerfing they should completely remake it. The Colossus suffers from everything that is wrong in SC2: supply inflation, anticonceptual unit (= artillery without the weaknesses of an artillery), poor microability, horrible interactions, exponential growth of firepower leading to deathball play...
- Supply should be reduced from 6 to 4. - Cost should be decreased (e. g. 200/150); same for the range upgrade if it's kept (100/100 or 150/150). The range should be anywhere from 7-8 (native, depending on the existence of a range upgrade or not) to 9-10 (with the upgrade). - Decrease production time. - Decrease mobility (remove cliffwalking, decrease movement speed). This is a piece of artillery and in some situations it arrives faster than regular "infantry" ... Besides, it would promote Prism usage (which, by the way, should not get this weird distance lifting, there's a reason dropships have to be close to the target they pick...). - Decrease attack speed. - Change damage accordingly; of course it should still slaughter low hit points targets such as workers, Marines, Zerglings and keep a good efficiency against medium hit point targets such as Marauders, Roaches, etc. - Change the form of the splash. Instead of a line that naturally spouses the enemy concave, promoting a-move instead of focusing (micro), change it to a normal impact like the Siege Tank or the Reaver so that hitting clumps is rewarded. - Lose the vulnerability to anti-air. The shift focus contest between Corruptors/Vikings and Stalkers to determine how long Colossi are going to live is insanely bland. Not only this allows a much needed reworking of Corruptors and Vikings, but it also breaks the fact the same anti-air simultaneously deals with Prisms and Colossi and Carriers. - Thanks to this we can decrease hit points now that they're no longer vulnerable to medium or long distance anti-air. Artillery should be fragile. - Of course it would no longer hover over other units (end of the aesthetically horrible cluster of units) nor give air vision, since it's no longer consider an air unit.
WARP PRISM - Renamed War Prism. - Removed Phase Mode. No more possibilities to warp anything. - 80/80, 200 minerals, 40 seconds. - Increase acceleration (important). - Increase movespeed slightly, to 3 or 3.25.
No picking from the other side of the universe gimmick; just a basic, functional Shuttle. Remember that this Protoss is no longer heavily dependent on robo production time (and thus can afford more Observers and/or Prisms). Terrans or Zergs would also no longer build anti-air (Vikings, Corruptors) from the get-go because Colossi would no longer be an air unit. An accelerated energy regeneration upgrade for its cargo could also be tested for better synergy with Archon drops (?).
ORACLE Should decrease the cost (resources/supply), slightly increase range and free Terran from the 6 Marines constraint in early game PvT (should be down to 4-5); the effect of an Oracle on an unprotected mineral line should be weaker. Revelation is interesting but it should be mechanically more demanding (i.e. the spell should cost 25 mana and the effect should not last one minute to begin with). The Stasis stuff seems interesting and could be used to set tactical traps, but it should not last 3 years nor affect 50 units at the same time either.
CARRIER - Increase native armor by 1. - Decrease production time by 10-15 seconds. Interceptors need to be more robust. They should have a single attack and not a double one (e. g. 8x1 or 9x1 instead of 5x2 as of now). They should regenerate when coming back to the Carrier. I don't know if the leash micro has been properly implemented—didn't they put a half-arsed variant?
TEMPEST Now that the Carrier has finally reclaimed its capital ship role with a siege component, the Tempest can get a new identity and be the support of the "teleporting race" theme with Recall/Warpgate. There you can go with an actual 300 gas cost, because it fits the theme of a powerful lategame air unit! You could for instance implement:
- Recall: 125 energy, teleports 6 units beneath the Tempest. - Phase mode: 100 energy, the Tempest can warp gate units like the current Prism does.
Remove Medivac boost (no more PO or Warpgate, huge positive effect on TvT); Mines reworked as 1 supply zoning unit (support instead of core, Tanks would have to come back in TvZ); Hellbats removed/weakened (mech should not have an easy counter to Zealot; also would fix a bit the bio vs mech relationship in HotS); Remove muta regen (so there is a non-Phoenixes solution to mutas; positive effects on ZvT); Keep an eye on Roaches max and the impact of Speedlings on early game ZvP (since there are no more Sentries).
CONSEQUENCES: - A normalized race freed from the deathball syndrome; - Possibilities of a standard game play based around multitasking and harassment; - Much higher microability of all standard units; - Combined with the disparition of Warpgate timings and the increased complexity of positioning (no more warp-ins to salvage mistakes) and management rally, the skill floor of the race would be considerably increased; - There would be diversity in TvP!
Depth in simplicity please. Come on Blizzard, make Protoss the race of proud and fiery warriors it deserves to be!
Those are some neat ideas. After 4 years of seeing the same problems with the Protoss race it is indeed time to remove warpgate (or make it lategame only) and get rid of the MSCore (bandaid to a problem which will no longer exist with good changes). The problem is Blizz hasn't done anything for 4 years despite many, many complaints from players and fans so I guess Protoss will remain the same. Warp gate will be nerfed but it will still be better than Gateways and the deathball effect will still exist. My hopes are high, but my expectations are low.
On December 19 2014 02:23 SatedSC2 wrote: Considering it's TheDwf, it's not as completely anti-Protoss as you might expect. I agree with a lot of it. I disagree with:
WARPGATE Removed as the standard Protoss production. The Warpgate upgrade can be moved anywhere. Pylons cannot receive warp-ins anymore; see below with Tempests.
I like that Protoss produces units differently to other races. It promotes the idea that we have three very different races. Also, I believe that Warpgate is the reason a lot of people choose to play Protoss and so don't feel it should be removed from being an early-game consideration. I do however feel that offensive warp-ins can be too strong and make it difficult to balance Gateway units properly; the best solution would be to make it so that you can only warp-in within a specific radius of a Gateway or a Nexus.
SENTRY - Removed from the Gateway (still unlocked by Core though). - Each Nexus can now build one Sentry that remains attached to that Nexus. - Same abilities as before, except Guardian Shield is a targetted AoE spell.
This is a really dumb suggestion. Tying the Sentry to a Nexus? That's just gimmicky and I thought you didn't want gimmicks. What is the casting range of Guardian Shield going to be if they're tied to a Nexus? How does Forcefield work if they're tied to a Nexus?
It would be better to just keep Sentries as a Gateway unit. Remove Forcefield and replace it with Time Warp so that they're still a space-control unit, but make Time Warp cost so much that you can't cast it twice using the same Sentry. Keep Guardian Shield as it is.
TEMPEST Now that the Carrier has finally reclaimed its capital ship role with a siege component, the Tempest can get a new identity and be the support of the "teleporting race" theme with Recall/Warpgate. There you can go with an actual 300 gas cost, because it fits the theme of a powerful lategame air unit! You could for instance implement:
I don't so much disagree with this - I just think that ARBITTERZZZZZ should replace them.
That different way of producing units is a dumb gimmick. It causes a lot of problems, actually. It negates defenders advantage, which is stupid. Making it so you warp in within range from gateway or nexus only makes it clunkier. The solution as mentioned by TheDwf is to make Gateways basic again and Warpgate a lategame utility you can combine with Arbitempest. You use the words 'early-game consideradion', but the problem is, there is nothing to consider. WG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GW any day of the week.
The sentry obviously has to be changed, but it comes down to forcefield being purely defensive now and possibly a Shield battery effect. Essentially, he made the sentry become what the MSC was initially supposed to be and named it sentry instead of Pre Alpha MSC
EPT
