EPTLegacy of the Void: Multiplayer Development Update - Page 19
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On December 19 2014 02:22 Charoisaur wrote: Well, in pvz lately many players are going mass blinkstalkers in the midgame and tech to collossi later, so i don't think a buff to gateway units is really necessary. For Pvt i agree with you that protoss is forced to rush to collossi, but this is mainly caused by the absurd widow mine +shield damage that makes collossi absolutely necessary. If the +shield damage would be nerfed templar openings would be viable again, which would enable toss to compete with terran with mosly gateway units in the midgame. Completely, completely out of context. This works ONLY because the strategy you're describing constantly pressures zerg with recall and forcefields, making them stay on low tier units themselves. If you sit in your base and "go mass blink stalkers" without being in their face constantly, you die. In some ways, the build is a constant all in on the edge of falling apart. If zergs fends off your pressure cost effectively just once, you're massively behind. So gateway units here are still only an option in a niche type of scenario. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 19 2014 02:25 Secret. wrote: Those are some neat ideas. After 4 years of seeing the same problems with the Protoss race it is indeed time to remove warpgate (or make it lategame only) and get rid of the MSCore (bandaid to a problem which will no longer exist with good changes). The problem is Blizz hasn't done anything for 4 years despite many, many complaints from players and fans so I guess Protoss will remain the same. Warp gate will be nerfed but it will still be better than Gateways and the deathball effect will still exist. My hopes are high, but my expectations are low. On the other hand, they have never seemed as willing to make massive changes to their game as they currently appear to be, which is somewhat hopegiving  ? | ||
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SemperSC
Canada117 Posts
On December 19 2014 02:27 SC2Toastie wrote: That different way of producing units is a dumb gimmick. It causes a lot of problems, actually. It negates defenders advantage, which is stupid. Making it so you warp in within range from gateway or nexus only makes it clunkier. The solution as mentioned by TheDwf is to make Gateways basic again and Warpgate a lategame utility you can combine with Arbitempest. You use the words 'early-game consideradion', but the problem is, there is nothing to consider. WG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GW any day of the week. The sentry obviously has to be changed, but it comes down to forcefield being purely defensive now and possibly a Shield battery effect. Essentially, he made the sentry become what the MSC was initially supposed to be and named it sentry instead of Pre Alpha MSC In Blizzard's eyes, the sentry is no longer a problem in LotV because Ravagers exist. They are doing what they have been doing for the past few years, fixing a problem by adding a straight up counter instead of looking at the core of the issue. There's plenty of time left so I hope they at least try new things but I don't think they will be looking at making fundamental changes to the race. Edit: I was thinking about sentry having shield battery instead of forcefield as well (gateway units would have to be buffed to compensate though) | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 19 2014 02:29 Secret. wrote: In Blizzard's eyes, the sentry is no longer a problem in LotV because Ravagers exist. They are doing what they have been doing for the past few years, fixing a problem by adding a straight up counter instead of looking at the core of the issue. There's plenty of time left so I hope they at least try new things but I don't think they will be looking at making fundamental changes to the race. Edit: I was thinking about sentry having shield battery instead of forcefield as well (gateway units would have to be buffed to compensate though) Ravagers in their current form have enough problems of their own, to be honest. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On December 19 2014 02:10 ZAiNs wrote: This post is hilarious. The opening made it clear it would be full of ridiculous changes, but I was still surprised. Building Sentries from a Nexus that are forever tied to that one Nexus, really? I'm loving the visual. Snow globe sentry with reindeer horns instead of its weird head thing for christmas #$kinz | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On December 19 2014 02:29 Secret. wrote: In Blizzard's eyes, the sentry is no longer a problem in LotV because Ravagers exist. They are doing what they have been doing for the past few years, fixing a problem by adding a straight up counter instead of looking at the core of the issue. Yeah, but look at it from Blizzard's perspective: if they add a counter forcefield stops being problematic and is promoted to being merely a nuisance, but if they outright remove the sentry there are all sorts of issues with box art, player expectations and so on. The effect is similar, but one is safer and smaller in scope and also promises 'counterplay', whatever that is. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 19 2014 02:33 SatedSC2 wrote: It won't negate defender's advantage of it's tied to Warpgates/Nexus. Unless you think a proxy Warpgate is a realistic proposition in the early game... It wouldn't be clunky at all. You see the radius the same way you do with Pylons now. You click to warp-in like you do now. It would be fine, no more clunky than Warpgates currently are. Unlike Terran, Protoss doesn't want nor need to produce units constantly. They're produced semi-responsively. You don't want to have to queue up units constantly as Protoss. The way you get a unit first and then wait for a cool-down as opposed to the other way around (which is what Barracks do) is important for Protoss to work properly. In fact, don't bother talking to me about Warpgates: If you still hate Warpgates no matter whether or not they can be used offensively then it's pointless. So they should be. They're the key difference between Protoss and the other two races. The Nexus-bound MSC was stupid for the same reasons a Nexus-bound Sentry would be stupid. The casting range on Forcefields would need to be ridiculous for it to work. Same with Guardian Shield. It would be really fucking weird. It would put massive constraints on map-makers as well. If he wants a Shield Battery then just put in the Shield Battery. In fact, don't bother talking to me about Warpgates: If you still hate Warpgates no matter whether or not they can be used offensively then it's pointless. We differ in opinion in that you see it as a "race defining mechanic" and I see it as a "RTS unworthy mechanic". Warpgates are forgiving (lol caught out of position WARPWARP), unfair (hmm at this exact point in time I want to hit him right there lol WARPWARP), ignore basics of RTS like defenders advantage (in current state that is) and the importance of army positioning. (as a sidenote, Protoss was fine without warpgate in BW so 'racedefining' makes no sense as is) You talk about the functioning of Protoss that doesn't want to build gateway units until they need them. That is what TheDwf aims to change - Gateway units should be threatening and dangerous. You should be happy to have a standing army. We want to get rid of the turtletoss that plays the game like it's sim city and allow/force protoss to be on the map more. Lastly, warp in range from gate/nexus WOULD be super weird. Say you have 8 gates. 4 in main, 2 at your wall, 2 at your third (this is not unreasonable in PvZ). You decide to warp in. SC2 takes the closest spellcaster to location first, so you warp in at your third. Warpwarp 8 zealots. Now, oddness comes into play when you want to warp in at multiple or a distant location. Warpwarp 6 defensive zealots, SHIT, I don't have range on my last gateways to warp 2 HT in on location XYZ. You make an aggressive pylon but 2 gateways are just barely too far away, darn, you gotta move screen half a map for every single warp in. Now that I mention it, how do you see where to place pylons? Nexus range? That puts hefty limits on map design if we want to balance around that, you can never have bases of P and the opponent too close to each other as we balanced for Warpgate to be less powerful when used aggressively so no nexus can every be in XYZ distance of other bases. So many stupid and weird things you have to find a solution for and weird limitations you can to pay attention to. It's much easier to have one easy to follow rule (Warp In At Pylon, Warp In At Arbitempest) than have a 100 page guideline on how to use Warpgate. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15955 Posts
On December 19 2014 02:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: Completely, completely out of context. This works ONLY because the strategy you're describing constantly pressures zerg with recall and forcefields, making them stay on low tier units themselves. If you sit in your base and "go mass blink stalkers" without being in their face constantly, you die. In some ways, the build is a constant all in on the edge of falling apart. If zergs fends off your pressure cost effectively just once, you're massively behind. So gateway units here are still only an option in a niche type of scenario. isn't that basically the way terran is forced to play vs toss and zerg? constantly pressuring to keep them on low tier units. why is it then considered gimmicky when protoss does it but not when terran does? | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 19 2014 02:58 Survivor61316 wrote: Doesnt photon overcharge already hit both ground and air? It does, but they experimented with it going ground only (because quite frankly it's a stupid mechanic and destoys early game) | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On December 19 2014 02:58 Survivor61316 wrote: Doesnt photon overcharge already hit both ground and air? In the LotV Blizzcon build it didn't. | ||
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Ouija
United States129 Posts
On December 19 2014 02:06 Charoisaur wrote: MMMM includes units from the factory and the starport (medivac and mine). terran techs to medivacs and mines and zerg techs to hydras or mutas; Only protoss seems to have a problem with teching to higher tier units; You can't be serious... So all the pros/casters that have said that gateway units cant compete with bio for years have been full of shit and YOU are correct? Your widow mine support costs 75/25 while support for protoss is 300/200. And that is just the cost of the units. We can add building a robo, robo bay, and colossus range if you'd like. I don't think you would though because that's an extra 700 gas needed while the most gas heavy unit terran needs is 100...Hell, none of your buildings even cost more than 100 gas besides a fusion core. Everything terran uses vs protoss besides the ghost is ridiculously cheap for how well they shred through anything protoss. Cost should be somewhat of an indicator to the strength of a unit overall. When you look at bio that all goes out the window. | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On December 19 2014 01:39 SC2Toastie wrote: + Show Spoiler + I posted this in the Balance Discussion Thread yesterday, but it might also apply in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/255254-designated-balance-discussion-thread?page=1216#24317 On December 18 2014 03:40 SC2Toastie wrote: SSL SPOILERS ! ! ! ! ! So, I have a minor complaint on how TvP lategame works out ^_^ This is a result of watching the series in SSL today. The problem is with the Zealot. More specifically, the low amounts of attention the Zealot needs compared to the countermicro that is required from Terran, but also the lack of micro that can be spend on Zealots. It is very visible in SSL Game 3 between Classic and Cure, where Classic made a ton of Zealots, Cure kills the collosi and kites the Zealots until they pretty much all die. There is nothing Classic can do in such a situation; either he retreats and loses units to Concussive Shells, or he moves on and tries to equalize the damage he takes by sniping Medivacs and Vikings with his Stalkers. Whilst he proceeds to win the game, I noticed this stupid situation in the game. In Game 5 the exact opposite happens. Classic shows and excellent understanding of the matchup and abuses the excessive amounts of micro and attention Terran needs to spend on units to trade efficiently for 10 minutes. Charge Zealots have such a good AI, speed and strenght they trade really efficiently with Terran bio. As a rule of thumb, bio needs to be in about 1.5x the supply for Terran to only Stim and trade well. If Terran has less supply at location, he'll have to kite to ensure a decent trade. Now, this is a stupid situation as it's either... or .... Terran either loses a marauder for 4 Zealots, or he loses 3 marauders and 4 marines for 4 zealots. The only difference is whether the Terran player can spend the time on handling the engagement. Now, Classic abuses this 'imbalance' in attention required. On King Sejong Station, he greatly abuses the AI on Zealots by repeating the same pattern over and over and over. A) he moves a force of approx. 6 Zealots to Cure's natural or fifth expansion. B) he moves his army towards Cures fifth base and C) he does some move with a pair of High Templar. The problem lies in the fact that each and every of these moves is a simple move command for Classic whilst looking at the High Templar to aim his storms and the minimap to retreat his main army. For Cure, however, this means extremely careful micro in 3 locations. Verse the Zealots, he needs to scramble an army at location, either position it in a tight choke (TIGHT!, thanks to Charge) or kite. He meanwhile needs to perfectly position his main army so his Ghost and Vikings zone out Classics main army, AND he has to be watching the minimap to respond within a second to minimize the damage the HT are going to do. Classic won this game five after being behind by messing up an engagement and macro-ing like a silver leaguer only by repeating this pattern. I have thought of two possible solutions for this. A: change Warpgate. Won't happen, so I'll ignore that. The second one is to change the Charge upgrade to increase movement speed and possibly decrease the effect of movement restricting spells like Concussive Shells, Fungal Growth and Time Warp (either by 100% or by a lower percentage) and remove the actual Charge. Note, this is not necessarily a nerf. Zealots move faster across the map and they will become substantially better when micro'd compared to the current situation in which micro usually decreases their effectiveness compared to a simple amove. This change completely changes the Zealot verse kiting bio scenario. Currently, Zealots sort of 'shuffle' when being kited: the Zealots in the back Charge, get a free hit on the bio, and are now in front. Combined with Concussive Shells, this perfectly distributes damage across all Zealots that are following the Bio army, forcing Terran to kite continuously until most zealots are dead. This is because a 10 HP Zealot still deals the same amount of damage a 150 HP Zealot deals. Protoss, on the other hand, cannot really do anything. Retreating means just losing some Zealots. Good bio players will abuse this majorly. I think this interaction might be a part in why Protoss needs to have it's long range AOE: it covers the Zealots and removes the scenario of Terran continuously poking the Protoss army with impunity (See for an example of this Maru in Proleague earlier this year - his relentless pokes essentially force Protoss to take a late third because without a good number of Collosi, Maru kites the army back and forth until there is simply nothing left). Now, with this change in effect, Protoss first of all gets the flexibility to disengage from Terran without taking major losses. This decreases the snowballing effect where Protoss is really never allowed to disengage (one of the reasons we have Recall in it's current form). Protoss harassment will also cost more attention. Without Charge, Zealots won't get free hits in and Terran has an easier time abusing Terrain against Protoss. As a first noteworthy side effect, this change may help the beloved Templar openings. The aforementioned problem of Terran poking and kiting until there is nothing left to shoot at is greatly reduced by this, because the reliance on long range damage (Psionic Storm) is reduced and can to some extend be compensated for by Photon Overcharge and Immortals when defending to get the Templar transition done. It also helps with suiciding Zealots into the Bio Ball to drag Mines, as Marauders won't stop them dead in their tracks. For other matchups, in PvP I cannot estimate the effects. On one hand, Zealots will move faster through Time Warp, but they will usually be more clumped up against Archons, unless split up ahead of time. The initial clash of Zealots into army will occur a second later because the armies do not activate Charge. This may have as a result that heavy Zealot armies get somewhat less popular. On the other hand, in extended engagements and for flanking, Zealots will be better. I don't expect big effects for PvZ. Charge Zealots are not a popular go-to for the main army. They may see a slight increase in utility as they are no longer pinned by Fungal Growth. They will also be faster when Protoss wants to dump Zealots into spread out Zerg bases and they may be stronger against a Swarm Host Zerg (when well microed). Zerg, on the other hand, should have an easier time defending against them as they no longer automatically shuffle the high health Zealots forwards. I'm interesting in hearing other opinions on the matter. I want to emphasize again: Zealot Charge upgrade is changed to Zealot Leg Enhancement, which increases Movement Speed and gives a resistance to spells that effect movement. This is not a buff, nor a nerf, it's a change. Have a good day, Toastie TLDR: Zealot Charge changed to a new upgrade than increases movement speed and gives a resistance to movement reduction (Concussive Shells, Fungal etc). Pro: Zealots are more microable, Protoss army can disengage better, may be a buff to Templar Openers, faster attacking at distant locations. Con: Zealots require more attention because they no longer shuffle when kited, they autosurround slower. I, for one, really prefer speedlots to chargelots. The specifics about concshell need hashing out, but there's a lot more micro potential for both players. | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On December 19 2014 03:12 Ouija wrote: You can't be serious... So all the pros/casters that have said that gateway units cant compete with bio for years have been full of shit and YOU are correct? Your widow mine support costs 75/25 while support for protoss is 300/200. And that is just the cost of the units. We can add building a robo, robo bay, and colossus range if you'd like. I don't think you would though because that's an extra 700 gas needed while the most gas heavy unit terran needs is 100...Hell, none of your buildings even cost more than 100 gas besides a fusion core. Everything terran uses vs protoss besides the ghost is ridiculously cheap for how well they shred through anything protoss. Cost should be somewhat of an indicator to the strength of a unit overall. When you look at bio that all goes out the window. I think he's just blinded by protoss hate, I wouldn't bother. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 19 2014 02:23 SatedSC2 wrote: This is a really dumb suggestion. Tying the Sentry to a Nexus and only allowing one each? That's just gimmicky and I thought you didn't want gimmicks. What is the casting range of Guardian Shield going to be if they're tied to a Nexus? How does Forcefield work if they're tied to a Nexus? Blech. It would be better to just keep Sentries as a Gateway unit. Remove Forcefield and replace it with Time Warp so that they're still a space-control unit, but make Time Warp cost so much that you can't cast it twice using the same Sentry. Keep Guardian Shield as it is. Don't see what's so gimmicky in that, think of that "Sentry Nexus" as an upgrade like Orbitals or PFs are for CCs. Casting range for Forcefield: same as now, 9. Don't see any map where you couldn't Forcefield the main ramp from that distance. It would work just like now, you select the area and the Forcefield appears. Guardian Shield could have a similar range as well, unchanged AoE. The Hallucination would spawn on top of the Sentry (unchanged). I don't so much disagree with this, I just think that you might as well replace them with Arbiters. Only problem: How does Protoss deal with Brood Lord/Infestor without Tempests? It's incredibly difficult to do so at the moment. Carriers would be able to properly deal with that. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15955 Posts
On December 19 2014 03:12 Ouija wrote: You can't be serious... So all the pros/casters that have said that gateway units cant compete with bio for years have been full of shit and YOU are correct? Your widow mine support costs 75/25 while support for protoss is 300/200. And that is just the cost of the units. We can add building a robo, robo bay, and colossus range if you'd like. I don't think you would though because that's an extra 700 gas needed while the most gas heavy unit terran needs is 100...Hell, none of your buildings even cost more than 100 gas besides a fusion core. Everything terran uses vs protoss besides the ghost is ridiculously cheap for how well they shred through anything protoss. Cost should be somewhat of an indicator to the strength of a unit overall. When you look at bio that all goes out the window. zealots sentrys and stalkers CAN compete with pure bio; once medivacs are added they have to tech out of pure zealot sentry stalker. I already admitted that i think it's bad that protoss has to tech to collossi that early, but this is mainly caused by the stupid +shield damage on widow mines, otherwise templar openings would be viable and toss could compete in the midgame with pure gateway units again. (high templar are a gateway unit). | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
imo P needs a antilight small AoE radius gateway unit that protects the small numbers of preblink/charge/critical number gateway units from mass marines/scvs or lings with roach support. the unit would need to be designed so it gets useless as the game goes on (see reaper) to not buff deathball play. also you need to really look at comparing P, T and Z in these scenarios. the marine is just a bit too strong in all game stages. a slight nerf to marines (5 less hp?) especially with the coming early game buffs to T in LotV might be really good to make T transition out of bio. | ||
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