On December 19 2014 04:51 Decendos wrote: ??? so they have their role, you just dont like it? i mean try fighting marines without 10000 banelings as Z...you cant...or fight MMM with roaches....again you cant (at least not once you reach 150+ supply of MMM). thats MMM being too strong, not gateway or roach ling being too weak. if you want to talk weak, lets talk about hydras....
imo they need to tone down MMM strenght in LotV while buffing other T stuff like BCs which they finally do.
Well that's like the same thing i'm saying... You think bio is too strong, which I agree with. I just think buffing gateway units would be a better option, because then protoss can become less reliant upon big splash damage. Where as you think that bio should just be nerfed ( which I wouldn't mind either ), in which case gateway units can stay as is.
For terran and zerg though, what I was trying to point out is that their core units are capable of fighting each other and trading. And this is true for PvZ as well. But PvT is really the only match up where those units cant fight each other and trade somewhat decent.
in PvT gateway units are also able to fight bio. chargelot blinkstalker sentry can do that. problem is that T can just doomdrop and P dies. in openfield chargelots alone with some blinkstalker sentry is able to fight MMM.
but no need to discuss single things like this. the game needs a lot of changes for all 3 races (although P and Z need the most changes while T is already in a decent state).
Sounds like they are still willing to try stuff that is a bit more out there. So happy :D Upgrade philosophy sounds right. Always loved crack lings in BW. I also really like the take on FRPB.
For Zerg AA spell maybe a Dota2 Lich Chain Frost like ability? Should work good against many, not against few, has to be microed against, not just shot down...
We've already gone from "we stick to new ideas because old ideas are bad because they're old" to "yeah Lurkers were great so they're back" so can Blizzard just pick the best unit designs from BW and bring them back already?
Now you can build Scarabs Disruptors instead of Reavers. You can even micro them Could work great with the increased pick up range on the Warp prism.
One thing I strongly disagree with you : warp-in is the mechanic that makes Protoss production interesting and different from T and Z, it should remain the standard way to produce. However, I agree offensive warp-ins should be weakened. Is it that hard to make it so that the further a unit is warped from the associated warpgate, the longer it takes for it to warp in (and optionally the more damage it takes) ? Defensive warp-ins remain as they are, and offensive warpgate timings don't exist anymore, with a now clear defender advantage.
Besides, sentry attached to the Nexus seems mostly nonsensical and I don't really get why you want to change the archon vs bio damage. Overall it looks like a bit of Starbow mixed with arbiters.
I like the idea of making gateway units the core of Protoss army, but I believe it can be achieved by modifying a lot less than what you suggest. I like the idea of moving immortals to gateway so that stalkers can have more of a raider role though.
One thing I strongly disagree with you : warp-in is the mechanic that makes Protoss production interesting and different from T and Z, it should remain the standard way to produce. However, I agree offensive warp-ins should be weakened. Is it that hard to make it so that the further a unit is warped from the associated warpgate, the longer it takes for it to warp in (and optionally the more damage it takes) ? Defensive warp-ins remain as they are, and offensive warpgate timings don't exist anymore, with a now clear defender advantage.
Besides, sentry attached to the Nexus seems mostly nonsensical and I don't really get why you want to change the archon vs bio damage. Overall it looks like a bit of Starbow mixed with arbiters.
I like the idea of making gateway units the core of Protoss army, but I believe it can be achieved by modifying a lot less than what you suggest. I like the idea of moving immortals to gateway so that stalkers can have more of a raider role though.
I would much much rather see Warpgate research reduce Gateway build times slightly, and have Warpgate cooldown be something like 33%-50% more than standard build time. It would really solidify Warpgate into the "offensive" role, while also not allowing for constant waves of units that poop all over defender's advantage and gives you a reason to keep using Gateways. The method you describe would change the effectiveness greatly based on spawn points...which is just weird and more complicated than it needs to be, imo.
I'm also sort of starting to agree with looking at moving Immortals to the Gateway, especially if the shielding thing is going to be an upgrade now. It gives Protoss an intermediary power unit to stand up to things like stimmed marauders and mass roach at the times when Protoss is really weakest (due to the damage bonus vs armored). Makes Photon Overcharge less absolutely necessary as well, so perhaps we can look at nerfing that further.
On December 19 2014 05:33 Grumbels wrote: High templar and archons are used in virtually every game? I don't think you can make a case that there is "an entire tech path [which is] effectively dead".
yeah they are tacked on to a colossus based army if it fails to do the job after the first couple fights. Are you purposefully not seeing the point?
That's a balance issue though. Colossi will be slightly weaker in lotv and after next patch will be less necessary anyway to stop mines. Maybe blizzard will rollback the ghost buff too.
One thing I strongly disagree with you : warp-in is the mechanic that makes Protoss production interesting and different from T and Z, it should remain the standard way to produce. However, I agree offensive warp-ins should be weakened. Is it that hard to make it so that the further a unit is warped from the associated warpgate, the longer it takes for it to warp in (and optionally the more damage it takes) ? Defensive warp-ins remain as they are, and offensive warpgate timings don't exist anymore, with a now clear defender advantage.
Besides, sentry attached to the Nexus seems mostly nonsensical and I don't really get why you want to change the archon vs bio damage. Overall it looks like a bit of Starbow mixed with arbiters.
I like the idea of making gateway units the core of Protoss army, but I believe it can be achieved by modifying a lot less than what you suggest. I like the idea of moving immortals to gateway so that stalkers can have more of a raider role though.
I would much much rather see Warpgate research reduce Gateway build times slightly, and have Warpgate cooldown be something like 33%-50% more than standard build time. It would really solidify Warpgate into the "offensive" role, while also not allowing for constant waves of units that poop all over defender's advantage and gives you a reason to keep using Gateways. The method you describe would change the effectiveness greatly based on spawn points...which is just weird and more complicated than it needs to be, imo.
I'm also sort of starting to agree with looking at moving Immortals to the Gateway, especially if the shielding thing is going to be an upgrade now. It gives Protoss an intermediary power unit to stand up to things like stimmed marauders and mass roach at the times when Protoss is really weakest (due to the damage bonus vs armored). Makes Photon Overcharge less absolutely necessary as well, so perhaps we can look at nerfing that further.
I don't know if that's weird... If we suppose the unit is teleported from the warpgate itself, it actually kind of makes sense. I honestly think this would be an elegant way to balance warpgate (though, admittedly, not giving any incentive to use gateways).
Additional new Protoss unit We haven’t finalized design on a new Protoss unit, but it’s something we’re heavily focused on these days. We have general concepts and ideas we’re trying, but haven’t nailed down something solid yet. Generally speaking, we’re experimenting with allowing Protoss to play a more aggressive containment game in the early game by utilizing a new unit. We feel this will give some more variety to Protoss openings, since Protoss generally tends to play defensively. If you have good ideas or feedback in this area, it would be appreciated.
We’re currently exploring a very different type of harassing unit. We don’t yet have the specific details yet but these are the things we’re thinking right now:
Early game unit Slow movement speed (to differentiate from other early game harassers) Phase shift ability. Unit goes completely invulnerable for X seconds on a short cooldown (to be able to move in and harass and to get out in a different way compared to say like Blink harass) Doesn’t counter core units for cost (idea of having a core unit that goes invulnerable just sounds like it would be too much. Plus with this effective ability, this unit could still be a great harasser even if it’s not effective for cost). But like we said, we’re still in the concept/discussion phase of this unit so additional feedback is welcome. It could even be suggestions on a completely different unit that the Protoss can use to make the game more exciting for everyone.
Mothership Core’s Photon Overcharge ability now hits both ground and air again. Because of the resource changes we’re currently testing, Protoss is most impacted as they’re the ones that struggle the most with taking additional bases. We felt this nerf was no longer needed because to this.
Immortal Barrier ability is an upgrade The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units. We’re currently testing having the ability as an upgrade. We may need to make tweaks to improve the ability if needed, but this is something we’ll look at going forward.
We're going backwards and/or in the wrong direction here. I don't understand what you're doing. LotV is your last chance to finally fix the massive mess that is Protoss since the first days of WoL. Last chance. After that it will be too late.
I read stuff about 300 gas (lol) Disruptors. I read stuff about PO still in the game, Warpgate still there, Colossi still there. I read stuff about a new "harass unit" when Oracles, Phoenixes, DTs, Prisms, Zealot raids and Blink Stalkers already exist. I read stuff about another Faerie Dragon Phase shift ability. I still witness that dangerous obsession about Protoss having a braindead dedicated anti-Tank unit. All of this needs to go. Protoss does not need any more weird, wonky niche units that eventually all end up revolving- around the same bad old deathball model. Protoss needs to be normalized.
Before thinking about new stuff, fix what already exists. You can't build anything on top of fragile foundations. Why not start by reworking those:
WARPGATE Removed as the standard Protoss production. The Warpgate upgrade can be moved anywhere. Pylons cannot receive warp-ins anymore; see below with Tempests.
MSC - Removed from the game; this unit is a disgrace to Starcraft. The HotS Mothership can stay for teamgames/lategame PvX.
Protoss should be able to operate without PO. PvT is much better without this, and with Warpgate gone PvP should be fine.
ZEALOT - "Charge" ability removed. - Passive boost to movement speed increased (final value would be anywhere from 3.5 to 4). - Damage point and attack backswing animation can be changed at will to balance the interaction between Zealots chasing bio or Roaches hitting & running.
Behold the birth of Zealot micro in large engagements.
SENTRY - Removed from the Gateway (still unlocked by Core though). - Each Nexus can now build one Sentry that remains attached to that Nexus. - Same abilities as before, except Guardian Shield is a targetted AoE spell.
This way, Protoss would have a compensation in defender's advantage, but not one that is abusable since it would remain around their bases—and around their bases alone. Cost (resources/supply) can be tweaked.
IMMORTAL - Removed from the Robotics. - Hardened Shields removed. - Added to the Gateway as a 80/100, 2 supply, 4 or 4.5 range unit dealing 20 damage to Armored targets. - 100/100 range upgrade at Core tech, increasing the final range to 6. Tweak search time accordingly.
STALKER Can now be further differentiated from the Immortal-Dragoon: cost, production time, damage point, attack, Blink, movement speed—everything can be tweaked to make it more like a mobile raider now that another unit fulfills the role of a stronger and sturdier medium-ranged shooter. Besides, the bad synergy with the MSC has been broken and the snowballing effect of Warpgate reinforcements are no longer there, so there is actually much more freedom to change the unit.
ARCHON - No more bonus damage against biological targets. - Damage changed to 30 + 3 against everything.
Maybe implement some kind of semi-gliding shot, i.e. the Archon doesn't fully decelerate before attacking (so an issued order at this time can make him keep better with retreating ranged units). Can also lower the damage point so it has better synergy with Prisms.
HIGH TEMPLAR - Storm damage changed from 80 damage over 4 seconds (20 dps) to 90 damage over 6 seconds (15 dps).
Reasoning: - Strong but slightly less devastative against light infantry; - Better zoning power; - Better against medium/large targets such as Roaches, Marauders, Protoss units overall; - Better Storm drops against workers; - Better against stationary targets such as Sieged Tanks or Lurkers.
DARK SHRINE Removed from the game. Dark Templars are unlocked by the Templar archives. Remember, they're no longer being warped in or near your base; no more low-skill fluke wins with random DT rushes. Besides, it would add clarity to the game: no one would proxy a building that important in a dark corner of the map. As a result, Dark Templars could probably be made slightly cheaper (cost and/or production). Also adds harassing options to the Templar tech.
COLOSSUS
On November 11 2014 21:19 TheDwf wrote: That's nice, but instead of nerfing they should completely remake it. The Colossus suffers from everything that is wrong in SC2: supply inflation, anticonceptual unit (= artillery without the weaknesses of an artillery), poor microability, horrible interactions, exponential growth of firepower leading to deathball play...
- Supply should be reduced from 6 to 4. - Cost should be decreased (e. g. 200/150); same for the range upgrade if it's kept (100/100 or 150/150). The range should be anywhere from 7-8 (native, depending on the existence of a range upgrade or not) to 9-10 (with the upgrade). - Decrease production time. - Decrease mobility (remove cliffwalking, decrease movement speed). This is a piece of artillery and in some situations it arrives faster than regular "infantry" ... Besides, it would promote Prism usage (which, by the way, should not get this weird distance lifting, there's a reason dropships have to be close to the target they pick...). - Decrease attack speed. - Change damage accordingly; of course it should still slaughter low hit points targets such as workers, Marines, Zerglings and keep a good efficiency against medium hit point targets such as Marauders, Roaches, etc. - Change the form of the splash. Instead of a line that naturally spouses the enemy concave, promoting a-move instead of focusing (micro), change it to a normal impact like the Siege Tank or the Reaver so that hitting clumps is rewarded. - Lose the vulnerability to anti-air. The shift focus contest between Corruptors/Vikings and Stalkers to determine how long Colossi are going to live is insanely bland. Not only this allows a much needed reworking of Corruptors and Vikings, but it also breaks the fact the same anti-air simultaneously deals with Prisms and Colossi and Carriers. - Thanks to this we can decrease hit points now that they're no longer vulnerable to medium or long distance anti-air. Artillery should be fragile. - Of course it would no longer hover over other units (end of the aesthetically horrible cluster of units) nor give air vision, since it's no longer consider an air unit.
WARP PRISM - Renamed War Prism. - Removed Phase Mode. No more possibilities to warp anything. - 80/80, 200 minerals, 40 seconds. - Increase acceleration (important). - Increase movespeed slightly, to 3 or 3.25.
No picking from the other side of the universe gimmick; just a basic, functional Shuttle. Remember that this Protoss is no longer heavily dependent on robo production time (and thus can afford more Observers and/or Prisms). Terrans or Zergs would also no longer build anti-air (Vikings, Corruptors) from the get-go because Colossi would no longer be an air unit. An accelerated energy regeneration upgrade for its cargo could also be tested for better synergy with Archon drops (?).
ORACLE Should decrease the cost (resources/supply), slightly increase range and free Terran from the 6 Marines constraint in early game PvT (should be down to 4-5); the effect of an Oracle on an unprotected mineral line should be weaker. Revelation is interesting but it should be mechanically more demanding (i.e. the spell should cost 25 mana and the effect should not last one minute to begin with). The Stasis stuff seems interesting and could be used to set tactical traps, but it should not last 3 years nor affect 50 units at the same time either.
CARRIER - Increase native armor by 1. - Decrease production time by 10-15 seconds. Interceptors need to be more robust. They should have a single attack and not a double one (e. g. 8x1 or 9x1 instead of 5x2 as of now). They should regenerate when coming back to the Carrier. I don't know if the leash micro has been properly implemented—didn't they put a half-arsed variant?
TEMPEST Now that the Carrier has finally reclaimed its capital ship role with a siege component, the Tempest can get a new identity and be the support of the "teleporting race" theme with Recall/Warpgate. There you can go with an actual 300 gas cost, because it fits the theme of a powerful lategame air unit! You could for instance implement:
- Recall: 125 energy, teleports 6 units beneath the Tempest. - Phase mode: 100 energy, the Tempest can warp gate units like the current Prism does.
Remove Medivac boost (no more PO or Warpgate, huge positive effect on TvT); Mines reworked as 1 supply zoning unit (support instead of core, Tanks would have to come back in TvZ); Hellbats removed/weakened (mech should not have an easy counter to Zealot; also would fix a bit the bio vs mech relationship in HotS); Remove muta regen (so there is a non-Phoenixes solution to mutas; positive effects on ZvT); Keep an eye on Roaches max and the impact of Speedlings on early game ZvP (since there are no more Sentries).
CONSEQUENCES: - A normalized race freed from the deathball syndrome; - Possibilities of a standard game play based around multitasking and harassment; - Much higher microability of all standard units; - Combined with the disparition of Warpgate timings and the increased complexity of positioning (no more warp-ins to salvage mistakes) and management rally, the skill floor of the race would be considerably increased; - There would be diversity in TvP!
Depth in simplicity please. Come on Blizzard, make Protoss the race of proud and fiery warriors it deserves to be!
Considering it's TheDwf, it's not as completely anti-Protoss as you might expect. I agree with a lot of it, especially the general theme that Protoss is becoming more and more gimmicky the further along the SC2 timeline we get. Gateway units need to be beefier, the MSC is fucking retarded especially in early-game PvP and a caster like the Sentry shouldn't be the backbone of an army. I disagree with:
WARPGATE Removed as the standard Protoss production. The Warpgate upgrade can be moved anywhere. Pylons cannot receive warp-ins anymore; see below with Tempests.
I like that Protoss produces units differently to other races. It promotes the idea that we have three very different races. I also believe that Warpgate is the reason a lot of people choose to play Protoss in the first place, I strongly feel that it shouldn't be removed from being an early-game upgrade. However, I do feel that offensive warp-ins can be too strong and make it difficult to balance Gateway units properly, especially if the Immortal is given the new role that you suggest. The best solution would be to make it so that you can only warp-in within the radius of a Warpgate or a Nexus.
One thing I strongly disagree with you : warp-in is the mechanic that makes Protoss production interesting and different from T and Z, it should remain the standard way to produce. However, I agree offensive warp-ins should be weakened. Is it that hard to make it so that the further a unit is warped from the associated warpgate, the longer it takes for it to warp in (and optionally the more damage it takes) ? Defensive warp-ins remain as they are, and offensive warpgate timings don't exist anymore, with a now clear defender advantage.
Even if we weaken or get rid of offensive warp-ins the way you suggest, I don't like Warpgate as the standard way to produce because:
1. It mitigates too much mild positioning failures. I don't like the fact you can use a round of warp-in to deal with a ling raid or a small drop even if you're completely out of position. Pre-positioning should be more important and positioning mistakes should be punished accordingly. It also provides a stronger incentive for activity and map control, as one of the ways you don't get caught out of position is to make sure your opponent is too busy for that. Offense is the best defence. Of course the HotS theme of over-mobility (boost Medivacs, faster mutas with regen) has to go for that, but I included that.
2. Adding the constraint of constant production and a harder rally management raises the mechanical difficulty of the race. As of now, one of the signs of great Protoss macro is… not do anything at times, because you're skipping rounds of warp-ins or banking for future cycles of production (besides, I don't like how this functions as a built-in "greed" feature; hence the previous 1 gate tech into +5 gates builds in PvT). Rain has really great macro, and I have yet to read constant praises from viewers/fans about this. Similarly, I am under the impression that people don't see or see less Zest's weakness in PvT regarding this. Terran and Zerg are better designed in this regard (more units to produce, individually cheaper = more actions to perform), so Protoss could do with an upgrade here.
3. Last but not least, if Protoss is to be made a micro-intensive race, it means you have to watch/babysit carefully your units in fight. This does not go well with the necessity to switch your camera to one of your Nexus to produce. Imagine for instance if Terran had to do that in TvZ fights: sorry for the 20 Marines pack, no more time to declump, hf with the banes, I have to produce!
Besides, sentry attached to the Nexus seems mostly nonsensical and I don't really get why you want to change the archon vs bio damage.
Well, I tried to reuse the Sentry the best I could. I think it can be interesting to provide that boost to Protoss' defender's advantage; plus it allows differentiation between aggressive and macro builds, and decisions between using energy to scout/create spotters or banking mana for defensive purposes (just like now, except the decision is more important since you have less Sentries to begin with). As I said, it would be like the Orbital/PF upgrade for CCs, or you could think of it as a Queen near its Hatchery. Don't see what's so shocking/gimmicky with the concept, but well, if you don't want it…
The Archon change is to balance how the unit performs vs bio, bio/Tanks and mech: slightly weaker than now against bio (and bio/Tanks since bio units are still the core here), slighly better against mech (remember that the current Immortal is gone in this scenario) and air (including Medivacs).
and fuck the herc XD stupid design they have landmines and hellions for dealing with ling bane don't need something that jumps on them.......... Try a mobile bunker type thing
On December 19 2014 07:34 Tentative wrote: Dark archons and an archon from a high and dark hybrid> Cmon that is soooooo obviously something amazing to work with
That's more superhightech stuff. Protoss is stacked at superhightech and absolutely doesn't need more lategame options on top of Tempest, Templar, Dark Templar, Archon, Colossus, Mothership - and in the future the Disruptor and Carrier too... That just means more turtle into ultimate lategame tech play...
Additional new Protoss unit We haven’t finalized design on a new Protoss unit, but it’s something we’re heavily focused on these days. We have general concepts and ideas we’re trying, but haven’t nailed down something solid yet. Generally speaking, we’re experimenting with allowing Protoss to play a more aggressive containment game in the early game by utilizing a new unit. We feel this will give some more variety to Protoss openings, since Protoss generally tends to play defensively. If you have good ideas or feedback in this area, it would be appreciated.
We’re currently exploring a very different type of harassing unit. We don’t yet have the specific details yet but these are the things we’re thinking right now:
Early game unit Slow movement speed (to differentiate from other early game harassers) Phase shift ability. Unit goes completely invulnerable for X seconds on a short cooldown (to be able to move in and harass and to get out in a different way compared to say like Blink harass) Doesn’t counter core units for cost (idea of having a core unit that goes invulnerable just sounds like it would be too much. Plus with this effective ability, this unit could still be a great harasser even if it’s not effective for cost). But like we said, we’re still in the concept/discussion phase of this unit so additional feedback is welcome. It could even be suggestions on a completely different unit that the Protoss can use to make the game more exciting for everyone.
Mothership Core’s Photon Overcharge ability now hits both ground and air again. Because of the resource changes we’re currently testing, Protoss is most impacted as they’re the ones that struggle the most with taking additional bases. We felt this nerf was no longer needed because to this.
Immortal Barrier ability is an upgrade The Barrier ability combined with the new ranged pick up from Warp Prisms has been too difficult to defend against without having air units. We’re currently testing having the ability as an upgrade. We may need to make tweaks to improve the ability if needed, but this is something we’ll look at going forward.
We're going backwards and/or in the wrong direction here. I don't understand what you're doing. LotV is your last chance to finally fix the massive mess that is Protoss since the first days of WoL. Last chance. After that it will be too late.
I read stuff about 300 gas (lol) Disruptors. I read stuff about PO still in the game, Warpgate still there, Colossi still there. I read stuff about a new "harass unit" when Oracles, Phoenixes, DTs, Prisms, Zealot raids and Blink Stalkers already exist. I read stuff about another Faerie Dragon Phase shift ability. I still witness that dangerous obsession about Protoss having a braindead dedicated anti-Tank unit. All of this needs to go. Protoss does not need any more weird, wonky niche units that eventually all end up revolving- around the same bad old deathball model. Protoss needs to be normalized.
Before thinking about new stuff, fix what already exists. You can't build anything on top of fragile foundations. Why not start by reworking those:
WARPGATE Removed as the standard Protoss production. The Warpgate upgrade can be moved anywhere. Pylons cannot receive warp-ins anymore; see below with Tempests.
MSC - Removed from the game; this unit is a disgrace to Starcraft. The HotS Mothership can stay for teamgames/lategame PvX.
Protoss should be able to operate without PO. PvT is much better without this, and with Warpgate gone PvP should be fine.
ZEALOT - "Charge" ability removed. - Passive boost to movement speed increased (final value would be anywhere from 3.5 to 4). - Damage point and attack backswing animation can be changed at will to balance the interaction between Zealots chasing bio or Roaches hitting & running.
Behold the birth of Zealot micro in large engagements.
SENTRY - Removed from the Gateway (still unlocked by Core though). - Each Nexus can now build one Sentry that remains attached to that Nexus. - Same abilities as before, except Guardian Shield is a targetted AoE spell.
This way, Protoss would have a compensation in defender's advantage, but not one that is abusable since it would remain around their bases—and around their bases alone. Cost (resources/supply) can be tweaked.
IMMORTAL - Removed from the Robotics. - Hardened Shields removed. - Added to the Gateway as a 80/100, 2 supply, 4 or 4.5 range unit dealing 20 damage to Armored targets. - 100/100 range upgrade at Core tech, increasing the final range to 6. Tweak search time accordingly.
STALKER Can now be further differentiated from the Immortal-Dragoon: cost, production time, damage point, attack, Blink, movement speed—everything can be tweaked to make it more like a mobile raider now that another unit fulfills the role of a stronger and sturdier medium-ranged shooter. Besides, the bad synergy with the MSC has been broken and the snowballing effect of Warpgate reinforcements are no longer there, so there is actually much more freedom to change the unit.
ARCHON - No more bonus damage against biological targets. - Damage changed to 30 + 3 against everything.
Maybe implement some kind of semi-gliding shot, i.e. the Archon doesn't fully decelerate before attacking (so an issued order at this time can make him keep better with retreating ranged units). Can also lower the damage point so it has better synergy with Prisms.
HIGH TEMPLAR - Storm damage changed from 80 damage over 4 seconds (20 dps) to 90 damage over 6 seconds (15 dps).
Reasoning: - Strong but slightly less devastative against light infantry; - Better zoning power; - Better against medium/large targets such as Roaches, Marauders, Protoss units overall; - Better Storm drops against workers; - Better against stationary targets such as Sieged Tanks or Lurkers.
DARK SHRINE Removed from the game. Dark Templars are unlocked by the Templar archives. Remember, they're no longer being warped in or near your base; no more low-skill fluke wins with random DT rushes. Besides, it would add clarity to the game: no one would proxy a building that important in a dark corner of the map. As a result, Dark Templars could probably be made slightly cheaper (cost and/or production). Also adds harassing options to the Templar tech.
COLOSSUS
On November 11 2014 21:19 TheDwf wrote: That's nice, but instead of nerfing they should completely remake it. The Colossus suffers from everything that is wrong in SC2: supply inflation, anticonceptual unit (= artillery without the weaknesses of an artillery), poor microability, horrible interactions, exponential growth of firepower leading to deathball play...
- Supply should be reduced from 6 to 4. - Cost should be decreased (e. g. 200/150); same for the range upgrade if it's kept (100/100 or 150/150). The range should be anywhere from 7-8 (native, depending on the existence of a range upgrade or not) to 9-10 (with the upgrade). - Decrease production time. - Decrease mobility (remove cliffwalking, decrease movement speed). This is a piece of artillery and in some situations it arrives faster than regular "infantry" ... Besides, it would promote Prism usage (which, by the way, should not get this weird distance lifting, there's a reason dropships have to be close to the target they pick...). - Decrease attack speed. - Change damage accordingly; of course it should still slaughter low hit points targets such as workers, Marines, Zerglings and keep a good efficiency against medium hit point targets such as Marauders, Roaches, etc. - Change the form of the splash. Instead of a line that naturally spouses the enemy concave, promoting a-move instead of focusing (micro), change it to a normal impact like the Siege Tank or the Reaver so that hitting clumps is rewarded. - Lose the vulnerability to anti-air. The shift focus contest between Corruptors/Vikings and Stalkers to determine how long Colossi are going to live is insanely bland. Not only this allows a much needed reworking of Corruptors and Vikings, but it also breaks the fact the same anti-air simultaneously deals with Prisms and Colossi and Carriers. - Thanks to this we can decrease hit points now that they're no longer vulnerable to medium or long distance anti-air. Artillery should be fragile. - Of course it would no longer hover over other units (end of the aesthetically horrible cluster of units) nor give air vision, since it's no longer consider an air unit.
WARP PRISM - Renamed War Prism. - Removed Phase Mode. No more possibilities to warp anything. - 80/80, 200 minerals, 40 seconds. - Increase acceleration (important). - Increase movespeed slightly, to 3 or 3.25.
No picking from the other side of the universe gimmick; just a basic, functional Shuttle. Remember that this Protoss is no longer heavily dependent on robo production time (and thus can afford more Observers and/or Prisms). Terrans or Zergs would also no longer build anti-air (Vikings, Corruptors) from the get-go because Colossi would no longer be an air unit. An accelerated energy regeneration upgrade for its cargo could also be tested for better synergy with Archon drops (?).
ORACLE Should decrease the cost (resources/supply), slightly increase range and free Terran from the 6 Marines constraint in early game PvT (should be down to 4-5); the effect of an Oracle on an unprotected mineral line should be weaker. Revelation is interesting but it should be mechanically more demanding (i.e. the spell should cost 25 mana and the effect should not last one minute to begin with). The Stasis stuff seems interesting and could be used to set tactical traps, but it should not last 3 years nor affect 50 units at the same time either.
CARRIER - Increase native armor by 1. - Decrease production time by 10-15 seconds. Interceptors need to be more robust. They should have a single attack and not a double one (e. g. 8x1 or 9x1 instead of 5x2 as of now). They should regenerate when coming back to the Carrier. I don't know if the leash micro has been properly implemented—didn't they put a half-arsed variant?
TEMPEST Now that the Carrier has finally reclaimed its capital ship role with a siege component, the Tempest can get a new identity and be the support of the "teleporting race" theme with Recall/Warpgate. There you can go with an actual 300 gas cost, because it fits the theme of a powerful lategame air unit! You could for instance implement:
- Recall: 125 energy, teleports 6 units beneath the Tempest. - Phase mode: 100 energy, the Tempest can warp gate units like the current Prism does.
Remove Medivac boost (no more PO or Warpgate, huge positive effect on TvT); Mines reworked as 1 supply zoning unit (support instead of core, Tanks would have to come back in TvZ); Hellbats removed/weakened (mech should not have an easy counter to Zealot; also would fix a bit the bio vs mech relationship in HotS); Remove muta regen (so there is a non-Phoenixes solution to mutas; positive effects on ZvT); Keep an eye on Roaches max and the impact of Speedlings on early game ZvP (since there are no more Sentries).
CONSEQUENCES: - A normalized race freed from the deathball syndrome; - Possibilities of a standard game play based around multitasking and harassment; - Much higher microability of all standard units; - Combined with the disparition of Warpgate timings and the increased complexity of positioning (no more warp-ins to salvage mistakes) and management rally, the skill floor of the race would be considerably increased; - There would be diversity in TvP!
Depth in simplicity please. Come on Blizzard, make Protoss the race of proud and fiery warriors it deserves to be!
Considering it's TheDwf, it's not as completely anti-Protoss as you might expect. I agree with a lot of it, especially the general theme that Protoss is becoming more and more gimmicky the further along the SC2 timeline we get. Gateway units need to be beefier, the MSC is fucking retarded especially in early-game PvP and a caster like the Sentry shouldn't be the backbone of an army. I disagree with:
WARPGATE Removed as the standard Protoss production. The Warpgate upgrade can be moved anywhere. Pylons cannot receive warp-ins anymore; see below with Tempests.
I like that Protoss produces units differently to other races. It promotes the idea that we have three very different races. I also believe that Warpgate is the reason a lot of people choose to play Protoss in the first place, I strongly feel that it shouldn't be removed from being an early-game upgrade. However, I do feel that offensive warp-ins can be too strong and make it difficult to balance Gateway units properly, especially if the Immortal is given the new role that you suggest. The best solution would be to make it so that you can only warp-in within the radius of a Warpgate or a Nexus.
One thing I strongly disagree with you : warp-in is the mechanic that makes Protoss production interesting and different from T and Z, it should remain the standard way to produce. However, I agree offensive warp-ins should be weakened. Is it that hard to make it so that the further a unit is warped from the associated warpgate, the longer it takes for it to warp in (and optionally the more damage it takes) ? Defensive warp-ins remain as they are, and offensive warpgate timings don't exist anymore, with a now clear defender advantage.
Even if we weaken or get rid of offensive warp-ins the way you suggest, I don't like Warpgate as the standard way to produce because:
1. It mitigates too much mild positioning failures. I don't like the fact you can use a round of warp-in to deal with a ling raid or a small drop even if you're completely out of position. Pre-positioning should be more important and positioning mistakes should be punished accordingly. It also provides a stronger incentive for activity and map control, as one of the ways you don't get caught out of position is to make sure your opponent is too busy for that. Offense is the best defence. Of course the HotS theme of over-mobility (boost Medivacs, faster mutas with regen) has to go for that, but I included that.
2. Adding the constraint of constant production and a harder rally management raises the mechanical difficulty of the race. As of now, one of the signs of great Protoss macro is… not do anything at times, because you're skipping rounds of warp-ins or banking for future cycles of production (besides, I don't like how this functions as a built-in "greed" feature; hence the previous 1 gate tech into +5 gates builds in PvT). Rain has really great macro, and I have yet to read constant praises from viewers/fans about this. Similarly, I am under the impression that people don't see or see less Zest's weakness in PvT regarding this. Terran and Zerg are better designed in this regard (more units to produce, individually cheaper = more actions to perform), so Protoss could do with an upgrade here.
3. Last but not least, if Protoss is to be made a micro-intensive race, it means you have to watch/babysit carefully your units in fight. This does not go well with the necessity to switch your camera to one of your Nexus to produce. Imagine for instance if Terran had to do that in TvZ fights: sorry for the 20 Marines pack, no more time to declump, hf with the banes, I have to produce!
Besides, sentry attached to the Nexus seems mostly nonsensical and I don't really get why you want to change the archon vs bio damage.
Well, I tried to reuse the Sentry the best I could. I think it can be interesting to provide that boost to Protoss' defender's advantage; plus it allows differentiation between aggressive and macro builds, and decisions between using energy to scout/create spotters or banking mana for defensive purposes (just like now, except the decision is more important since you have less Sentries to begin with). As I said, it would be like the Orbital/PF upgrade for CCs, or you could think of it as a Queen near its Hatchery. Don't see what's so shocking/gimmicky with the concept, but well, if you don't want it…
The Archon change is to balance how the unit performs vs bio, bio/Tanks and mech: slightly weaker than now against bio (and bio/Tanks since bio units are still the core here), slighly better against mech (remember that the current Immortal is gone in this scenario) and air (including Medivacs).
I actually like how Protoss is about producing units when you truly need it (which will be far earlier if msc is gone as you suggested ; I kinda agree with that suggestion, msc feels out of place). Of course if Protoss playstyle is changed to rely more heavily on gateway units this will be different.
+200% damage to warping in units -as suggested in Blizzcon- can be kept to help making positioning relevant.
Overall I do like warpgate while it seems you don't. I think it's a really distinctive feature, one of the things I found really cool when watching videos as I hadn't even bought the game and made me want to play Protoss. I'd be sad if this was gone and Protoss production was just identical to Terran, but I can get over it if it's for the greater good -which I'm not entirely convinced atm.
i dont get this, with all the changes especially eco, everything is overboard.
its essentially a new strategy game what can players bringt over to LotV that played the last years SC2? mechanics? most players had the mechanics even before SC2, most even better than now.
was is not the beauty of BW that there werent any balance patches/new units for years? so players could really excell at this game?
this brings everything back to start, we will se 2 years long new cheeses every month that dominate the game for weeks.
to really get good at something it must stay the same for a very long time, no sport has constant rule changes all the time, thats just silly.
i dont get why they dont just expand the campaign, make improvments to multiplayer (not balance / not new units) and sell this.
this is basically SC3. everything is back to start.
On December 19 2014 09:18 phil.ipp wrote: i dont get this, with all the changes especially eco, everything is overboard.
its essentially a new strategy game what can players bringt over to LotV that played the last years SC2? mechanics? most players had the mechanics even before SC2, most even better than now.
was is not the beauty of BW that there werent any balance patches/new units for years? so players could really excell at this game?
this brings everything back to start, we will se 2 years long new cheeses every month that dominate the game for weeks.
to really get good at something it must stay the same for a very long time, no sport has constant rule changes all the time, thats just silly.
i dont get why they dont just expand the campaign, make improvments to multiplayer (not balance / not new units) and sell this.
this is basically SC3. everything is back to start.
The game needs big changes because there is a lot wrong with it that needs to be fixed. That's the only way it's going to survive and gain any popularity and freshness. Imagine in pre-bw times if someone were to say "they shouldn't release bw, it changes too much". Stupid right?
Wow, it was so clear that they would revert much of the groundbreaking changes they did with the Blizzcon build. Above all, the mineral almost-revert.
If you want changes, you need to fight through the wind. Of course people will protest if big things are changed. People almost ALWAYS dislike changes at first, wether it be politics, web site design or sc2. But instead of being convinced of themselves and be determined to make the current snoozefest-earlygame more action-packed they buckle...
So, I was just wondering, has anyone made any really good discussion points in this thread? And another question: does anyone actually follow through threads like this the whole way through? It just seems like there is so much superficial content...
On December 19 2014 09:50 SatedSC2 wrote: It doesn't really matter though. As it stands, there is a 90% chance I won't be playing LotV except for the campaign. Not even sure I'll keep playing HotS with that new map-pool. GJ Blizzard.
I feel you. Not going to be unreasonably pissed like you (let's get real, you love that game), but I fully understand where you are coming from.
EPT
Offense is the best defence. Of course the HotS theme of over-mobility (boost Medivacs, faster mutas with regen) has to go for that, but I included that.
