EPTLegacy of the Void: Multiplayer Development Update - Page 22
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On December 19 2014 21:25 SatedSC2 wrote: I don't think the Reaper needs to be more useful in the mid-to-late game. There isn't a role for it to fulfil that isn't already fulfilled by other Terran options. It's role as a scout becomes less important later in the game because Terran has more access to Scans and usually does most of their composition scouting by being in their opponent's face. It's role as a harassment unit is replaced by the Medivac. It's true that the medivac basically invalidates the reaper, but it still seems unsatisfying to just cast them aside after a certain point. Is there any other unit in the game as limited in scope? | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On December 19 2014 21:34 Grumbels wrote: It's true that the medivac basically invalidates the reaper, but it still seems unsatisfying to just cast them aside after a certain point. Is there any other unit in the game as limited in scope? midgame upgrade for reapers: reapers now are able to heal, medivac healing removed. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 19 2014 21:25 SatedSC2 wrote: I don't think the Reaper needs to be more useful in the mid-to-late game. There isn't a role for it to fulfil that isn't already fulfilled by other Terran options. Really? For over four years Terrans have been complaining about having no options except MMMVG in TvP and you don't see how another viable bio unit, whether it's added onto the bio ball or replaces something, could possibly make TvP more diverse and more interesting? | ||
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On December 19 2014 21:25 SatedSC2 wrote: I don't think the Reaper needs to be more useful in the mid-to-late game. I do. Nothing should be added to the game solely for early game scouting. That's pretty much the only use it has now so ... yeah, it needs some utility. | ||
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Supersamu
Germany296 Posts
- 8 second warp in change is taken back, warping in takes standard time - Warped in units have x% less shields, possibly balanced only for certain units with individually adjusted shield deficits at the start and possibly also faster shield regen directly after warping in, not in general. Note: This means not that gateway units will have less shields overall, it means that they start with less shields and should regen their shields before they come into battle. For example, a zealot would start with 100 health and only 25 shield, but after 10 ingame seconds, the shields start to fill up to the full potential of 50 Advantages: - Emergency warp in not as effective as in Hots, the same as with the 8-sec warp in model - Possibility of giving warpgate units a general buff, because Warpgate rushes are less powerful against Z and T, thus giving them fighting power in the midgame I would like to hear what others think on this suggestion since I am by far not an expert on gameplay. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 19 2014 23:12 SatedSC2 wrote: I understand the call for Terran to have more options, but you need to think of the role that needs to be filled first rather than trying to change existing units without any clear reasoning to do so. MMMVG doesn't need anything else as it stands: It's the standard composition in TvP because it can deal with anything Protoss can throw at it. "Terran needs more diversity" is such a far-reaching "problem" that it won't be solved by one unit changing and probably requires Terran to be completely re-worked. I don't think Terran needs re-working, it's the best-designed race in the game right now. Zerg is second and Protoss has always been is the bastard child of SC2 when it comes to design... I think that it's very easy to fall into the trap of underestimating small-seeming changes. Look at TvZ mech in HOTS, the only changes we saw in the last year were combined mech/air upgrades, removal of Transformation Servos, a tiny buff to tank attack speed and a change to Thor attack priority that many, including myself, thought would do absolutely nothing... and in that time, mech has gone from a gimmicky pressure build to a macro style that isn't just a response to SH, it actually forces SH out of the Zerg. We've seen pure bio, pure mech, bio openings into mech play, mech openings into bio play, and every biomech style under the sun (WM-heavy, tank-heavy, Thor-heavy, Hellbat-heavy). It's impossible to say what the tier2/3 Reaper's role ought to be without really knowing what Protoss looks like in LOTV, but I would have liked to see Blizzard try some ideas out and see if they become worthwhile. But it seems like they're now retooling the HERC to be the tier 2+ bio supplement, so the Reaper's role has depreciated in priority for me. I still think it's inelegant as all get out to have an entire unit for such a niche purpose, but there are bigger fish to fry. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 19 2014 23:12 SatedSC2 wrote: I understand the call for Terran to have more options, but you need to think of the role that needs to be filled first rather than trying to change existing units without any clear reasoning to do so. MMMVG doesn't need anything else as it stands: It's the standard composition in TvP because it can deal with anything Protoss can throw at it. Yeah, I don't really see what the reaper should be used for past the early game. A combat shield, unstimmed marine with the stim upgrade has basically the same combat stats with the option to stim and anti-air and 50gas cheaper and half the production time. The additional healing only comes in play out of combat and is inferior to medivac healing. Marine drops are cheaper and much more powerful than reaper cliff-jumping harrass. The only real advantage is the built in extra-speed. A buff upgrade for the unit would have to buff it very strongly to be better in any way than the marine... and then Terran gets an even better marine, which I'm not sure can withstand the test of balance. The alternative would be to have an upgrade that changes the unit function fundamentally, (example: making it straight up fly). That could be cool, but depends strongly on what it is and would be like introducing a new unit. | ||
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
Thors are good vs phoenixes but terran gets vikes vs phoenix colossus because the colossus is the core of the toss army and immos melt thors too. Im really looking foward to a new TvP with TvZ/ZvP levels of diversity. edit: Maybe blizzard should remove the immortal and give toss another new unit. Something that can deal with both roaches and bio in the early robo tech. | ||
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On December 19 2014 23:12 SatedSC2 wrote: Why not? At the end of WoL it was commonly suggested that Terran needed better early-game scouting/harassment against Zerg and Protoss to keep them honest. The Reaper - a unit that wasn't really used at the end of WoL - was re-tooled to fit this gap in the Terran arsenal. There was a problem, the problem was fixed. If you want the Reaper to be changed for the mid/late-game then come up with a specific problem that it could fix. Like I just said: "Terran needs more diversity" is such a far-reaching "problem" that it won't be solved by one unit changing and probably requires Terran to be completely re-worked. Because having a unit that can only do one thing and then is useless (especially outside of 5 minute window in the early game) is such a waste. Especially when that one thing is basically: see what's going on. I'm not arguing that terran needs more diversity ... I'm just saying that this unit being useful for a very short duration, then useless, is boring and unnecessary. Blizzard can do better than that. They even suggested a way to do better themselves: add an upgrade to convert the early-game unit into a more-useful version of itself. Building attack? Extra damage versus light? Anything's possible. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On December 19 2014 23:59 Superbanana wrote: One of the things im most hyped for LotV is Biomech in TvP. Just changing the immortal allows terran to get tanks. And that chages the whole matchup. Stargate openings for protoss hopefully not having to transition to colossi as much as in HotS/WoL, and suddenly terran is getting thors too vs continuous stargate production. Thors are good vs phoenixes but terran gets vikes vs phoenix colossus because the colossus is the core of the toss army and immos melt thors too. Im really looking foward to a new TvP with TvZ/ZvP levels of diversity. edit: Maybe blizzard should remove the immortal and give toss another new unit. Something that can deal with both roaches and bio in the early robo tech. I really cannot see the Immortal changes meaning not transitioning to Colossi as much to be honest; they're too important. The threat of mass marines with Medivac support is so potent that you can't afford to mess about with "should I be getting splash this game or not". You have to tech to splash, its a necessity. And with the increased number of bases needed I can't see Templar being all that favourable; and the new splash unit is still robo and hideously expensive; so Colossi are likely to remain a staple of the matchup. In short: Although we obviously don't have it to play yet, based on what has been said its almost certainly safer to go Colossi and run into Mech than it is to go Airtoss and run into MMM. So people will tend towards the safer option. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 20 2014 00:32 SatedSC2 wrote: I'm not underestimating small changes, I'm saying that you should have a very clear goal in mind before making changes. "Terran needs more diversity" isn't a small change. It is a very wide-reaching change. It's also a change that isn't born out of necessity but out of boredom and those changes are the ones we should be making last. The Reaper change to become a scouting unit was a necessary change because Terran needed an early-game scout. When Protoss needed an early scout, they got free Hallucination. There are other ways of giving Terrans an early-game scout than taking up an entire unit to do it. Give them 1 free Scan at their first OC. Just as inelegant, but it doesn't take up a unit in the race's roster to do it! You cited the change to Mech/Air upgrades but that was a change that did have a clear goal in mind. Was it born out of necessity? Given that both Mech and Bio are supposed to be viable Terran options, I think that it was. It didn't quite go the whole way because it hasn't really convinced Terrans that Mech vs. Protoss can work as a standard play (although some players have made it work and I personally think it is under-explored), but we do see Mech more often in TvT and TvZ. "Give Terrans more viable things to tech to in TvP so that they can surprise Protoss and catch them off guard with an unexpected unit composition" is a legitimate goal, no? Until you can come up with a hole in the Terran arsenal that changing the Reaper can fill, there's no point in changing the bloody Reaper. The thing is that Terran has very few holes in it's arsenal. The fact that MMMVG has lasted so long is testament to that. Instead of being upset, Terran players should be happy that their race was relatively well designed since day one in both HotS and WoL bar unit balance tweaks. I agree that Terran is very well designed, but there's always room for improvement! | ||
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
On December 20 2014 00:23 -Celestial- wrote: I really cannot see the Immortal changes meaning not transitioning to Colossi as much to be honest; they're too important. The threat of mass marines with Medivac support is so potent that you can't afford to mess about with "should I be getting splash this game or not". You have to tech to splash, its a necessity. And with the increased number of bases needed I can't see Templar being all that favourable; and the new splash unit is still robo and hideously expensive; so Colossi are likely to remain a staple of the matchup. In short: Although we obviously don't have it to play yet, based on what has been said its almost certainly safer to go Colossi and run into Mech than it is to go Airtoss and run into MMM. So people will tend towards the safer option. Im pretty much assuming they will give toss something to fill the gap of nerfed warpgates and no thermal lance colossi. To increase diversity in PvT the immos must be changed, but toss also needs a new spash damage unit. People always complain that toss have too many splash damage units, but gate units are tanks with poke guns (stakers tank damage with blinks) so spash damage units are necessary for the mid game. Chargelot archon is not enough on the long run so without a new splash unit toss is really really dead with no thermal lance. Might as well make it a faster transition (like early robo or twilight tech) to reduce the dependacy on slow tech transitions that force turtle play (or make it a big comitment when you do move out). edit: about the Disruptor, i dislike the design. Its a huge cost for a unit that can potentially decide a battle alone or die with no damage done for a huge cost. Its like a widow mine on this matter, but on bigger proportions. Its also colossus tech so if its supposed to work vs late game bio its a replacement for the (very) nerfed colossus so they might as well remove it. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3487 Posts
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On December 20 2014 01:17 ejozl wrote: Are we just neglecting the Disruptor? The disruptor is a step in the right direction IMO. Having just one of those things blow up in the middle of an MMM ball could easily turn the battle in protoss's favor. 1 colossus does not have the same effect. Disruptors aren't countered by vikings either, in fact I don't know how terran is supposed to deal with them. Bloody hell, do we need lockdown now too? It does overlap with the colossus a lot, honestly I would like the colossus a lot more if they doubled its damage from 15x2 to 30x2 and also doubled its attack cooldown (make it twice as long). Same DPS, but that first shot will always one-shot marines and SCVs much like the reaver used to do. Then we wouldn't need the disruptor. | ||
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On December 20 2014 02:04 BaronVonOwn wrote: The disruptor is a step in the right direction IMO. Having just one of those things blow up in the middle of an MMM ball could easily turn the battle in protoss's favor. 1 colossus does not have the same effect. Disruptors aren't countered by vikings either, in fact I don't know how terran is supposed to deal with them. Bloody hell, do we need lockdown now too? This honestly does concern me, but what if EMP disabled the disruptor's ability/reset the cooldown? | ||
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