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Off-topic discussions pertaining to Gamergate will be moderated from page 5 onwards. |
A major publication discussing esports at length and in detail with a focus on our own game and one of our most prominent and popular players, that specifically name-checks our own forum. Are we REALLY going to derail this into THAT topic again?
Let's talk about the article. I hear that's a cool thing to do in a thread about the article.
On November 17 2014 19:27 lichter wrote:
hendralisk also often posts in WCS AM threads. Pretty sure most pros browse. Casters are also always reading threads; Khaldor and Wolf often gave shoutouts during Code A.
But other than Henry once or twice, I don't think anyone checks/posts on TL in the middle of their tournament runs, or in Scarlett's case in particular, in the middle of sets. Naturally, in an entertainment industry (which every sport is), professionals are constantly examining how the audience perceives them. That's why every professional athlete who gives a damn about a Western audience has a Twitter, typically a Facebook page, often with an accompanying Instagram account, and on some occasions, even a YouTube channel. But players who'll use those social media tools in the middle of a game are much less common.
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On November 17 2014 20:12 Circumstance wrote:
But other than Henry once or twice, I don't think anyone checks/posts on TL in the middle of their tournament runs, or in Scarlett's case in particular, in the middle of sets.
Or be considered legit enough as a live report poster to participate in the Live Report StarLeague 
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On November 17 2014 20:12 Circumstance wrote:A major publication discussing esports at length and in detail with a focus on our own game and one of our most prominent and popular players, that specifically name-checks our own forum. Are we REALLY going to derail this into THAT topic again? Let's talk about the article. I hear that's a cool thing to do in a thread about the article. Show nested quote +On November 17 2014 19:27 lichter wrote:
hendralisk also often posts in WCS AM threads. Pretty sure most pros browse. Casters are also always reading threads; Khaldor and Wolf often gave shoutouts during Code A. But other than Henry once or twice, I don't think anyone checks/posts on TL in the middle of their tournament runs, or in Scarlett's case in particular, in the middle of sets. Naturally, in an entertainment industry (which every sport is), professionals are constantly examining how the audience perceives them. That's why every professional athlete who gives a damn about a Western audience has a Twitter, typically a Facebook page, often with an accompanying Instagram account, and on some occasions, even a YouTube channel. But players who'll use those social media tools in the middle of a game are much less common.
In the middle of sets is definitely a pretty unique thing. In the middle of tournaments runs is much more common I think.
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One thing I actually found interesting in the article, and a sort of point that I go back and forth on, was this:
Yet she rarely plays StarCraft more than three or four hours in a day, both because she suffers from painful tendinitis in her right wrist and because she finds the Korean tradition of relentless practice unnecessary, and even counterproductive: rote but without mindfulness. She learns almost as much from watching others’ games as from playing her own.
Now, I don't know what exactly her practice setup was like when she was in the Axiom house, but I do wonder how the different professional training regimens compare in this matter - Axiom house vs. a KeSPA house vs. living and practicing on your own vs. something like the Alternate house, or even the GEM house. And since the Korean practice routine has been proven time and time again as the most effective way to build champions, where does the difference lie?
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On November 17 2014 18:55 Stijn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2014 18:48 Killscreen wrote:I resent this gamergate fallacy being perpetuated.
Hordes of angry young men turned their pitchforks on women (and feminist supporters) throughout the gaming industry
Did they? Did they really? The SC2 community has practically bent over backwards to welcome to Scarlett and make her feel welcome, and yet the article frames it as anything but. Personally, I find it interesting that the only really good female player is a transgender woman, and would like to discuss this as gender roles interest me, but any such discussion is implicitly verboten in the community, because the consensus is that Scarlett would not like it, and we have to respect that. No other player gets any such consideration. Well, no other (prominent) player is comparable to Scarlett in that regard. So that's not an especially useful comparison. I agree with you that the climate around the issue is pretty mild nowadays, but for the longest time any reddit/teamliquid thread or twitch chat remotely connected to Scarlett was full of bigotry and hurtful remarks. With that in mind, "the community practically bent over backwards to welcome Scarlett" doesn't really ring true with me.
Yeah, one should have a look at the original threads involving Scarlett. There were a lot of one-off comments by people that felt the need to express their hate before being banned. Any Reddit thread involving Scarlett used to have tons of heavily downvoted comments you had better ignore, there was also a plague of "funny" novelty usernames on reddit and whenever you would suggest to the mods that they ban those people they would feign powerlessness since those people could simply make new accounts.
I think the reason that the community feels that Scarlett feels welcomed nowadays is mostly because she truly did receive a lot more support than hate, so all the malicious transphobic trolls eventually found another cause, a different person to hate on (& they were banned from TL en masse). I guess we can be happy for Scarlett, if not for humanity.
On November 17 2014 20:24 Circumstance wrote:One thing I actually found interesting in the article, and a sort of point that I go back and forth on, was this: Show nested quote +Yet she rarely plays StarCraft more than three or four hours in a day, both because she suffers from painful tendinitis in her right wrist and because she finds the Korean tradition of relentless practice unnecessary, and even counterproductive: rote but without mindfulness. She learns almost as much from watching others’ games as from playing her own. Now, I don't know what exactly her practice setup was like when she was in the Axiom house, but I do wonder how the different professional training regimens compare in this matter - Axiom house vs. a KeSPA house vs. living and practicing on your own vs. something like the Alternate house, or even the GEM house. And since the Korean practice routine has been proven time and time again as the most effective way to build champions, where does the difference lie?
How good is Scarlett compared to the top Koreans? (not very) She's just very talented so that's why she does well, but I refuse to believe that practicing 3 hours a day is better than practicing 9 hours a day. It's her choice, obviously, and she'll have her reasons, but the rest of the world can take her justification of it with a grain of salt.
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Great read! thx for the find
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On November 17 2014 19:18 OtherWorld wrote:Great article ! Also that Chinese chess story is pretty awesome. However Show nested quote +
she visits the forums at teamliquid.net, a kind of StarCraft clearing house, sometimes even onstage between games, to see how people are reacting to the show she’s putting on. “I think I’m the only player that does that,” she added.
I'm pretty sure other players do that? Bunny, Hendralisk?
Honestly I think a lot of players do. When I was at Gfinity we could see the player's screens really big even between games. Snute, Bunny, TLO, etc were all on TL. MC and MMA went on PlayXP between games too.
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That was a very solid article. Props to them.
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Northern Ireland281 Posts
This was a good read, nice find.
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Only PartinG diverted from the humble messaging. “I am one of the gods,” he said.
PartinG is such a fucking baller.
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On November 17 2014 20:07 Stijn wrote:
As for the article at hand, I found the bit about the wrist issues interesting. 6 months rest for a full recovery sounds pretty serious. I wonder if these progamer wrist issues could be prevented if people were aware of them earlier on? It seems like right now most only become aware of them when it's too late.
Pretty sure the best way to prevent such issues is to simply play less, which isn't exactly an ideal option for a pro player.
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On November 17 2014 19:18 OtherWorld wrote:Great article ! Also that Chinese chess story is pretty awesome. However Show nested quote +
she visits the forums at teamliquid.net, a kind of StarCraft clearing house, sometimes even onstage between games, to see how people are reacting to the show she’s putting on. “I think I’m the only player that does that,” she added.
I'm pretty sure other players do that? Bunny, Hendralisk? There's also a mistake in the article here : Show nested quote +
Then, not long afterward, he quit the sport. He was at a tournament in Poland, and playing against the Korean DongRaeGu, when he grew annoyed that the crowd’s reactions seemed to be aiding his opponent. Blaming the soundproofing, he walked offstage, to thousands of boos. He never returned.
It was against Polt, wasn't it?
Snute and bunny do it sometimes. Bunny seems to pop up whenever korean bunny is playing as well.
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Bisutopia19346 Posts
On November 17 2014 22:13 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2014 20:07 Stijn wrote:
As for the article at hand, I found the bit about the wrist issues interesting. 6 months rest for a full recovery sounds pretty serious. I wonder if these progamer wrist issues could be prevented if people were aware of them earlier on? It seems like right now most only become aware of them when it's too late.
Pretty sure the best way to prevent such issues is to simply play less, which isn't exactly an ideal option for a pro player.
Thankfully SC2 is a little more forgiving then it's parent (even if it's by just a little). There's really no getting around how mechanically demanding SC2 is especially at the highest level.
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On November 17 2014 20:24 Circumstance wrote:One thing I actually found interesting in the article, and a sort of point that I go back and forth on, was this: Show nested quote +Yet she rarely plays StarCraft more than three or four hours in a day, both because she suffers from painful tendinitis in her right wrist and because she finds the Korean tradition of relentless practice unnecessary, and even counterproductive: rote but without mindfulness. She learns almost as much from watching others’ games as from playing her own. Now, I don't know what exactly her practice setup was like when she was in the Axiom house, but I do wonder how the different professional training regimens compare in this matter - Axiom house vs. a KeSPA house vs. living and practicing on your own vs. something like the Alternate house, or even the GEM house. And since the Korean practice routine has been proven time and time again as the most effective way to build champions, where does the difference lie?
I would say if you are close to people that train 12 hours a day, when you only train 4 hours a day. Then the 12 hour people are pretty inefficient. But the inefficiency is overcome by just dragging it out to 12 hours. So I wouldn't call it effective, but the safest way of improving dedicated people.
But this mechanical oriented training was better suited for BW then Sc2, it still works though. Either way, playing 4 hours doesn't mean you only train 4 hours, especially since they mention that she learns as much from watching others afterwards.
The article is pretty great.
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United States1225 Posts
Oh awesome, this is finally out! Had the opportunity to chat with Ben at RedBull DC in the press area. He was extremely well spoken and was always asking questions. Took tons of notes and you could practically see him drawing lines between everything, noticing small hints of a potential secondary storyline to take. He and Wisecrax talked a fair amount about the current TvT meta and he definitely knew his stuff.
Really a beautiful piece of writing. Tons of exposition, did a great job of getting some fantastic stories out of friends and family, and really just did an amazing job of crafting a portrait with all of the anecdotes. Definitely a new high point for journalism in esports and definitely a piece that I'm going to come back to and read for inspiration and insight many times.
Also, just want to leave what he told me about the piece at DC: "Yeah, it should be coming soonish. It's a bit of a detailed piece, so I want to make sure I do it justice." Holy hell did he do it justice. :D
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France9034 Posts
On November 17 2014 20:01 Killscreen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2014 19:54 Stijn wrote:On November 17 2014 19:48 Killscreen wrote:On November 17 2014 19:23 Ragnarork wrote:On November 17 2014 19:18 WigglingSquid wrote:On November 17 2014 18:55 Killscreen wrote:On November 17 2014 18:49 Ragnarork wrote:My favorite part, hands down: In July, ESPN2 aired a half-hour program previewing an annual tournament for a game called Defense of the Ancients 2, or Dota 2, thereby enraging football and basketball fans who would have preferred round-the-clock speculation about off-season roster moves, and who vented on Twitter: “None of these people are anywhere near athletic,” “Wtf man. This is our society now,” “WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPENING ON ESPN2?,” and so on. Meanwhile, the winners of the Dota 2 tournament took home a total of five million dollars. By the way, On November 17 2014 18:48 Killscreen wrote:
Did they? Did they really?
The SC2 community has practically bent over backwards to welcome to Scarlett and make her feel welcome, and yet the article frames it as it as anything but. Personally, I find it interesting that the only really good female player is a transgender woman, and would like to discuss this as gender roles interest me, but any such discussion is implicitly verboten in the community, because the consensus is that Scarlett would not like it, and we have to respect that. No other player gets any such consideration.
You must have missed that huge wave of bans on teamliquid when Scarlett made her breakout. Don't pretend the problem isn't here. Yeah, I must have. Link(s)? I'd like to invite posters to ignore the request for links. Please don't derail this thread with gamergate nonsense and debate club quibbles. There's no such "links" anyway. It's all in the Automated Ban List thread, and requires digging. One could also look for threads that spawned at that time (was it an IPL ?) to see the kind of comments. That's just scattered in a lot of places. But I agree, no such point in reviving this. So there is no evidence of this alleged shit storm, and yet we are just supposed to accept it as gospel. Sounds about right, and in accordance with the anti GG movement. There is no evidence to support my initial quote either. The article does mention gamergame, and it is pretty damn apparent that the article is GG related, so I don't see why you guys seem so reluctant to discuss this major aspect of the article. Scarlett is one of the most popular and beloved players in the community, and yet we are supposed to be these bigoted misogynists. Am I not allowed to point out this glaring contradiction? GamerGate? Have you seen how huge that article is? GamerGate is mentioned 3 times, of which only one really goes into it. "Major aspect of the article", what? I've been reading threads and chats for a while and when Scarlett was mentioned, people would make often hurtful comments about her gender. You can probably dig up "evidence" by looking up reddit threads about her from a while back and checking the downvoted comments. Beyond that I honestly don't see it as big enough of a deal to do the work to present you with a list of links. The plural of anecdotes is not evidence. People like to present these guys as representative of us, but never feel required to actually prove that they actually do represent us, that they are not a small vocal minority. Even though the burden of evidence lies with the people making these claims, I would offer Scarletts popularity as evidence that this simply isn't the case. But fine. You people are obviously not interested in discussing it, so I'll let it go. It's shame though. This stuff is important.
This is not evidence. These are the facts. Either you accept the facts (that are scattered, sorry for your lazy ass, it's not compiled in one nicely formatted article), or you dismiss them, but then we can't do anything for you.
Sorry not to be a banling to provide you with a more accurate description (like maybe stats, etc) of what happened at this time, but as a regular poster, there was a noticeable _increase_. Which is not to say it was not minor, but that was still noticeable, which is still alarming.
On November 17 2014 23:06 peanuts wrote:
Oh awesome, this is finally out! Had the opportunity to chat with Ben at RedBull DC in the press area. He was extremely well spoken and was always asking questions. Took tons of notes and you could practically see him drawing lines between everything, noticing small hints of a potential secondary storyline to take. He and Wisecrax talked a fair amount about the current TvT meta and he definitely knew his stuff.
Really a beautiful piece of writing. Tons of exposition, did a great job of getting some fantastic stories out of friends and family, and really just did an amazing job of crafting a portrait with all of the anecdotes. Definitely a new high point for journalism in esports and definitely a piece that I'm going to come back to and read for inspiration and insight many times.
Also, just want to leave what he told me about the piece at DC: "Yeah, it should be coming soonish. It's a bit of a detailed piece, so I want to make sure I do it justice." Holy hell did he do it justice. :D
I have a few concerns with the article, but as a whole it is pretty awesome yeah. Nice to hear that ! 
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Haven't read the article, nor any of the comments in this thread, but since it's The New Yorker and it's SC2, I'll take a look for sure. Good for Scarlett.
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On November 17 2014 19:43 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2014 19:27 lichter wrote:
hendralisk also often posts in WCS AM threads. Pretty sure most pros browse. Casters are also always reading threads; Khaldor and Wolf often gave shoutouts during Code A. iNcontroL also posts quite a lot, as well as TB.
ZombieGrub does as well. I've seen the Shoutcraft crew read some LR threads while casting sometimes.
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France9034 Posts
On November 17 2014 23:44 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2014 19:43 Ragnarork wrote:On November 17 2014 19:27 lichter wrote:
hendralisk also often posts in WCS AM threads. Pretty sure most pros browse. Casters are also always reading threads; Khaldor and Wolf often gave shoutouts during Code A. iNcontroL also posts quite a lot, as well as TB. ZombieGrub does as well. I've seen the Shoutcraft crew read some LR threads while casting sometimes.
Want facts and numbers? Aligulac & Liquipedia.
Want fun and stories and random shit? LR Threaaaaaaaad !
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EPT
