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On November 08 2014 23:13 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 23:06 Charoisaur wrote:On November 08 2014 22:48 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 22:45 Ljas wrote:
If even a fraction of the whiners go through with their threats to stop watching and playing Starcraft 2 we'll have a much less toxic community to look forward to. Please stop with that. It's a thread about the announcements, the ones who disagree with the direction towards the game seems to be heading have the right to be vocal about it. I agree threats like "I won't play SC2 anymore if this goes through" aren't constructive, but we don't have to play yes men. i play the game like it is and love it but if they change the fundamentals of the game it will change the complete flow of the game. You don't even contemplate the possibility the game, though different, ends up being even better with those changes ? even if it is (which i don't think), i'm not a fan of changing the core mechanics of my favourite game.
Neither am I, but it's not like we have another RTS to play instead in the first place, so we have to hope LotV is great and give all the constructive feedback we can so that this final expansion is as good as it gets.
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On November 08 2014 23:13 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 23:06 Charoisaur wrote:On November 08 2014 22:48 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 22:45 Ljas wrote:
If even a fraction of the whiners go through with their threats to stop watching and playing Starcraft 2 we'll have a much less toxic community to look forward to. Please stop with that. It's a thread about the announcements, the ones who disagree with the direction towards the game seems to be heading have the right to be vocal about it. I agree threats like "I won't play SC2 anymore if this goes through" aren't constructive, but we don't have to play yes men. i play the game like it is and love it but if they change the fundamentals of the game it will change the complete flow of the game. You don't even contemplate the possibility the game, though different, ends up being even better with those changes ? even if it is (which i don't think), i'm not a fan of changing the core mechanics of my favourite game.
Out of curiosity, are you speaking mostly as a player or mostly as a spectator? Or half and half?
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On November 08 2014 23:13 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 23:06 Charoisaur wrote:On November 08 2014 22:48 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 22:45 Ljas wrote:
If even a fraction of the whiners go through with their threats to stop watching and playing Starcraft 2 we'll have a much less toxic community to look forward to. Please stop with that. It's a thread about the announcements, the ones who disagree with the direction towards the game seems to be heading have the right to be vocal about it. I agree threats like "I won't play SC2 anymore if this goes through" aren't constructive, but we don't have to play yes men. i play the game like it is and love it but if they change the fundamentals of the game it will change the complete flow of the game. You don't even contemplate the possibility the game, though different, ends up being even better with those changes ? even if it is (which i don't think), i'm not a fan of changing the core mechanics of my favourite game.
Too bad. You will have to stay with HotS then. Godspeed!
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Wow these changes are huge. Especially changing EVERY single build order with a change in minerals.
Some things are not completly thought through I guess. E.g. in TvZ you now have to face Lurkers which need a scan to be revealed which on the other hand is needed for the Mineral collection mechanism (Toss Chronoboos, Zerg Larva inject, Terran Mule).
Sadly no Tier 3 unit for Terran. Seems so that Bio will still be the way to play.
It will still be interesting to see if these changes will completely fail and lead to a even worse game or if they succeed and make us happy.
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On November 08 2014 23:13 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 23:06 Charoisaur wrote:On November 08 2014 22:48 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 22:45 Ljas wrote:
If even a fraction of the whiners go through with their threats to stop watching and playing Starcraft 2 we'll have a much less toxic community to look forward to. Please stop with that. It's a thread about the announcements, the ones who disagree with the direction towards the game seems to be heading have the right to be vocal about it. I agree threats like "I won't play SC2 anymore if this goes through" aren't constructive, but we don't have to play yes men. i play the game like it is and love it but if they change the fundamentals of the game it will change the complete flow of the game. You don't even contemplate the possibility the game, though different, ends up being even better with those changes ? even if it is (which i don't think), i'm not a fan of changing the core mechanics of my favourite game.
What kind of core mechanic is changed though?
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What core mechanics are you people even talking about? Mineral and worker counts?
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LOTV is definitely going into the right direction. No more 3 base turtle. To get 200/200, you would have to expand. The new units look very promising (need a lot of tweaking)
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Economy + warpgates are core mechanics and any tampering with them will have huge consequences (bad or good).
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On November 08 2014 23:10 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 23:01 Swisslink wrote:On November 08 2014 22:58 SatedSC2 wrote:i hope lotv will be a giant disappointment and tournaments etc. will still be played on hots. I don't necessarily want LotV to fail, but if it is a completely different game then I would love to see HotS still being played. Because I won't be playing LotV if it stays remotely like this and where else do I go for competitive RTS..? On November 08 2014 22:41 Costanza9 wrote:
Its sad no one can take this reveal with a grain of salt. Hots and even wol alphas were nothing like the final versions, are people seriously this naive? HotS beta was mostly unit balance though. These changes are core gameplay changes. They shouldn't be making core gameplay changes at this point. Not as drastic as this. It's a completely different game if they make these changes. It's not an expansion. Well, for years people have been asking for drastic changes - and finally they do it. I agree with Sated it's kind of strange to do such drastic changes for an expansion. Brood War changed a lot of things but -correct me if I'm wrong- the core remained untouched. Changing the way the eco works, changing the role of a core Protoss mechanic like Warpgate, and doing all this at the same time while adding new units... Yeah, it's basically a new game. Good thing or bad thing ? Impossible to know yet. And there is absolutely no way HotS keeps being a thing after LotV release. It'll slowly fall into oblivion like WoL did when HotS came out. The only question is to know whether HotS will disappear alongside LotV or if LotV will be succesful, which I hope -though I hope the game evolves a lot from what was shown yesterday too ! For years, people wanted Blizzard to change that mechanic  I agree it's basically a new game - but SC2 has huge design issues and they won't be fixed by minor changes. And it seems that Blizzard accepted that and is willing to change the core of the game. Of course nobody knows if it's gonna be a good thing; but it had to be done, imo.
who are "people"?
in my view it was just a vocal minority who was crying about the mechanics of the game.
how many people play the game. like 300000?
how many people you see complaining? 50? 100? and that are mostly BW nostalgics who didn't want changes.
unfortunately it looks like that are more because they are so vocal, but i thought blizzard was intelligent enough to recognize that.
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On November 08 2014 23:15 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:13 Charoisaur wrote:On November 08 2014 23:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 23:06 Charoisaur wrote:On November 08 2014 22:48 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 22:45 Ljas wrote:
If even a fraction of the whiners go through with their threats to stop watching and playing Starcraft 2 we'll have a much less toxic community to look forward to. Please stop with that. It's a thread about the announcements, the ones who disagree with the direction towards the game seems to be heading have the right to be vocal about it. I agree threats like "I won't play SC2 anymore if this goes through" aren't constructive, but we don't have to play yes men. i play the game like it is and love it but if they change the fundamentals of the game it will change the complete flow of the game. You don't even contemplate the possibility the game, though different, ends up being even better with those changes ? even if it is (which i don't think), i'm not a fan of changing the core mechanics of my favourite game. Out of curiosity, are you speaking mostly as a player or mostly as a spectator? Or half and half?
half an half; i'm an active player that also views esports a lot
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On November 08 2014 23:18 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Economy + warpgates are core mechanics and any tampering with them will have huge consequences (bad or good).
Yes, and these have been arguably creating the biggest discussion and complains about the game, so obviously willing to change them to make them better is a good thing? Nobody should expect Blizzard to get it right at the first try, but screaming "DEVILLL!!!!" just at the thought of changing it is not helping at all.
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On November 08 2014 23:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:10 Swisslink wrote:On November 08 2014 23:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 23:01 Swisslink wrote:On November 08 2014 22:58 SatedSC2 wrote:i hope lotv will be a giant disappointment and tournaments etc. will still be played on hots. I don't necessarily want LotV to fail, but if it is a completely different game then I would love to see HotS still being played. Because I won't be playing LotV if it stays remotely like this and where else do I go for competitive RTS..? On November 08 2014 22:41 Costanza9 wrote:
Its sad no one can take this reveal with a grain of salt. Hots and even wol alphas were nothing like the final versions, are people seriously this naive? HotS beta was mostly unit balance though. These changes are core gameplay changes. They shouldn't be making core gameplay changes at this point. Not as drastic as this. It's a completely different game if they make these changes. It's not an expansion. Well, for years people have been asking for drastic changes - and finally they do it. I agree with Sated it's kind of strange to do such drastic changes for an expansion. Brood War changed a lot of things but -correct me if I'm wrong- the core remained untouched. Changing the way the eco works, changing the role of a core Protoss mechanic like Warpgate, and doing all this at the same time while adding new units... Yeah, it's basically a new game. Good thing or bad thing ? Impossible to know yet. And there is absolutely no way HotS keeps being a thing after LotV release. It'll slowly fall into oblivion like WoL did when HotS came out. The only question is to know whether HotS will disappear alongside LotV or if LotV will be succesful, which I hope -though I hope the game evolves a lot from what was shown yesterday too ! For years, people wanted Blizzard to change that mechanic I agree it's basically a new game - but SC2 has huge design issues and they won't be fixed by minor changes. And it seems that Blizzard accepted that and is willing to change the core of the game. Of course nobody knows if it's gonna be a good thing; but it had to be done, imo. who are "people"? in my view it was just a vocal minority who was crying about the mechanics of the game. how many people play the game. like 300000? how many people you see complaining? 50? 100? and that are mostly BW nostalgics who didn't want changes. unfortunately it looks like that are more because they are so vocal, but i thought blizzard was intelligent enough to recognize that.
Blizzard has a hotline to the pro community. We don't really know what sort of feedback the pros have been giving them over the years. It's possible that the economy issue has come up a lot in those circles... iirc the first time it was really raised here was by a pro.
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Love how people are complaining about balance in an alpha...
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On November 08 2014 23:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:10 Swisslink wrote:On November 08 2014 23:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:On November 08 2014 23:01 Swisslink wrote:On November 08 2014 22:58 SatedSC2 wrote:i hope lotv will be a giant disappointment and tournaments etc. will still be played on hots. I don't necessarily want LotV to fail, but if it is a completely different game then I would love to see HotS still being played. Because I won't be playing LotV if it stays remotely like this and where else do I go for competitive RTS..? On November 08 2014 22:41 Costanza9 wrote:
Its sad no one can take this reveal with a grain of salt. Hots and even wol alphas were nothing like the final versions, are people seriously this naive? HotS beta was mostly unit balance though. These changes are core gameplay changes. They shouldn't be making core gameplay changes at this point. Not as drastic as this. It's a completely different game if they make these changes. It's not an expansion. Well, for years people have been asking for drastic changes - and finally they do it. I agree with Sated it's kind of strange to do such drastic changes for an expansion. Brood War changed a lot of things but -correct me if I'm wrong- the core remained untouched. Changing the way the eco works, changing the role of a core Protoss mechanic like Warpgate, and doing all this at the same time while adding new units... Yeah, it's basically a new game. Good thing or bad thing ? Impossible to know yet. And there is absolutely no way HotS keeps being a thing after LotV release. It'll slowly fall into oblivion like WoL did when HotS came out. The only question is to know whether HotS will disappear alongside LotV or if LotV will be succesful, which I hope -though I hope the game evolves a lot from what was shown yesterday too ! For years, people wanted Blizzard to change that mechanic I agree it's basically a new game - but SC2 has huge design issues and they won't be fixed by minor changes. And it seems that Blizzard accepted that and is willing to change the core of the game. Of course nobody knows if it's gonna be a good thing; but it had to be done, imo. who are "people"? in my view it was just a vocal minority who was crying about the mechanics of the game. how many people play the game. like 300000? how many people you see complaining? 50? 100? and that are mostly BW nostalgics who didn't want changes. unfortunately it looks like that are more because they are so vocal, but i thought blizzard was intelligent enough to recognize that.
It is not as drastic change as it seems. The mining rate/ saturation seems to remain the same. The main thing is that you can no longer turtle 3 base till you hit a max army. You will roughly mine out your main in the 8minutes mark. This isn't really a change in the "Core mechanic" but rather the create a more dynamic game. Players have to plan ahead how to expand/defense/attack bases.
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On November 08 2014 23:24 purakushi wrote:
Love how people are complaining about balance...
Sc2 community in a nutshell
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On November 08 2014 23:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:24 purakushi wrote:
Love how people are complaining about balance... Sc2 community in a nutshell
People can't differentiate the terms "imbalance" and "broken" when used to describe mechanics.
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On November 08 2014 23:30 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 08 2014 23:24 purakushi wrote:
Love how people are complaining about balance... Sc2 community in a nutshell People can't differentiate the terms "imbalance" and "broken" when used to describe mechanics.
Both terms are extremely flawed and you can't expect a whole community to use them "properly" in your sense.
But anyway, I fell asleep yesterday. Any news about an open/closed beta for LotV?
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On November 08 2014 23:31 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:30 Miragee wrote:On November 08 2014 23:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 08 2014 23:24 purakushi wrote:
Love how people are complaining about balance... Sc2 community in a nutshell People can't differentiate the terms "imbalance" and "broken" when used to describe mechanics. Both terms are extremely flawed and you can't expect a whole community to use them "properly" in your sense. But anyway, I fell asleep yesterday. Any news about an open/closed beta for LotV?
How are they flawed? Please elaborate.
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On November 08 2014 23:33 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:31 KeksX wrote:On November 08 2014 23:30 Miragee wrote:On November 08 2014 23:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 08 2014 23:24 purakushi wrote:
Love how people are complaining about balance... Sc2 community in a nutshell People can't differentiate the terms "imbalance" and "broken" when used to describe mechanics. Both terms are extremely flawed and you can't expect a whole community to use them "properly" in your sense. But anyway, I fell asleep yesterday. Any news about an open/closed beta for LotV? How are they flawed? Please elaborate.
Broken can indicate both a not-working-as-intended mechanic due to bugs OR a mechanic that IS working but inherently flawed. If I say "Forcefields are broken" that could mean I say that I see them never working or that they suddenly have a 500 meters raidus(or something more subtle). It is also an absolute position as something might be broken due to something else. Broken can also mean that something influences the game in a way you don't like. I.e. "If zerg build banelings, I can't just go pure Marine. Thats so broken!"
Imbalance is the go-to term to say that you don't like something. Just as the term broken it is used for far too many things:
1) Something is unavoidable
2) Something is too strong compared to another thing
3) Something is too weak compared to another thing
All these things are extremely vague which is why any kind of balance discussion should be taken with a BIG, BIG grain of salt.
We can say "Omg cyclone looks so imba" but that means nothing in the context of actual balance.
What we instead should focus on in this kind of discussion(in my opinion) are concepts. What does the concept of more starting workers do? Don't focus on how " 12 workers at start make it impossible to do X". Numbers can be adjusted very easily.
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On November 08 2014 23:31 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 23:30 Miragee wrote:On November 08 2014 23:27 404AlphaSquad wrote:On November 08 2014 23:24 purakushi wrote:
Love how people are complaining about balance... Sc2 community in a nutshell People can't differentiate the terms "imbalance" and "broken" when used to describe mechanics. Both terms are extremely flawed and you can't expect a whole community to use them "properly" in your sense. But anyway, I fell asleep yesterday. Any news about an open/closed beta for LotV?
Redeye said 'open beta in January' but I think that may be mis-information as it seems too early, and Heroes of the Storm was confirmed for open beta in January earlier too.
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