On November 08 2014 08:06 lopido wrote: what i think after watching all these videos : We Protoss Are getting fucked in our own extension.
Just like Zergs in HotS and Terrans in WoL. Unfortunately this is the final iteration so we'll be the worst race from LotV on. After all this makes sense, Protoss already got the least medals in BW.
This is like 40 pages of you just bitching and complaining. You even complained about the polls.
Get a life.
? Just because I said I'm not enthusiastic about the changes I'm bitching and complaining ? So what, we have to say we're in love with what's being done even if some things worry us ?
Its ok to be upset or not excited. To continually posting about it on every page will get on peoples nerves over time, especially if you have a great base line like being upset about polls.
Mmmh. While I appreciate the fact they're finally willing to test a long due big overhaul, I'm extremely skeptical about the way they work towards their direction of a more active gameplay.
(Couldn't watch the videos with sound so obviously I might have missed some information.)
— Reworking the economy/production system was the first priority, but 1. they have apparently no plan for slowing down the game of mass production (mass larvae/MULEs+Reactors/Warpgate still spew too many units too fast); 2. the way they're reworking the economy seems extreme and might have counterproductive effects. There should be a middle ground between "6 bases at 15 minutes" (might be an exaggeration but whatever) and the current system which limits mineral income at 3 bases for Terran and Protoss (and 4 for Zerg).
There is in particular a grave coherence issue with the fact they want to encourage mass expanding, yet heavily nerfed defensive warp-ins (as it should be done) while keeping untouched the Medivac boost, the speed of Zerg units and most likely Protoss deathball play; plus Terran still has no static defence (which should stay like that! but would result in severe problems if you truely have to spread yourself thin across the map as early as reports say). All of this is a recipe for disaster, if players are to be all over the map the mobility of some units simply has to be toned down.
As for the specific racial ideas:
TERRAN — Cyclone: no thanks, autoshot is ridiculous, micro should be more than a bunch of backwards right clicks... — HERC: please no melee unit for Terran. Not having a proper "melee tanking unit" in front adds so much more finesse to the race since it has to work around that imperfection. Please stop creating "perfect combos" of units with the tank + the damage dealer + the support + whatever. Leave structural weaknesses that players have to overcome by skill. A new derpbat 2.0 isn't needed. — On that matter Hellbats should be removed in favor of a simple +35-45 hit points upgrade for Hellions. — Tanks: for God's sake no, this would be stupid in conjunction with the Medivac boost. Having to siege Tanks is the only thing that vaguely limits doomdrops in TvT. Tanks having immobility as a weakness is normal. Please stop making stuff like the Colossus where every weakness of the artillery unit has been softened. — Thors: please get rid of that pile of trash in favor of a smaller variant… Supply inflation is an issue that plagues numerous SC2 units, — how can you not deathball with a slow, clunky 6 supply unit? Whereas a faster, cheaper, 2 supply variant would allow more maneuvers and splitting. — Banshees: no to Cloak by default. Range is fine, more would break the Marine vs Banshee relationship in the early game. Why not to a lategame speed upgrade, but a simple cost reduction to 150/75 would have done the trick too so mech can afford more Banshees to harass in the later stages of the game. — Battlecruisers:
THE MEDIVAC BOOST NEEDS TO GO:
1. It adds a ton of instability for TvT; 2. Defensive warp-ins are finally nerfed, which was the main thing blocking drops in WoL to begin with; 3. Marines/Tanks should come back as the standard for TvZ with possibilities for the Terran to lose his few Medivacs without it being game-ending!
THE RAVEN NEEDS TO CHANGE. The unit has the same problem as the WoL Infestor, a nefarious exponential growth of power through energy accumulation that is bad for the game and rewards super passive play instead of promoting an actual, timing-based mech play.
PROTOSS — Disruptor: why invulnerable? What is the opposing player supposed to do as a counter play to this?... — Immortal: cute but if it means lazily pressing one button to have the same effect, no thanks. Please rework the unit with a lower supply, weaker variant, weaker damage with a weaker form of damage reduction. I can't even believe you still proudly show 3 Immortals charging into 5 Siege Tanks in your exhibition videos... — Prism: the dropship being close to the unit it picks is normal so the opponent has the opportunity to focus it and makes the move a bit risky. Why would you skew the risk/reward ratio of that maneuver… Why not make an AoE robo unit which actually has interesting actions with the Prism to begin with… — Carrier: Why would the Interceptors last a bit after the Carrier dies? When a unit dies it dies, end of story. — Photon Overcharge: C'mon, just remove the MSC already... Normalize Protoss early game so they don't need a dumb hero unit with stupid spells to survive.
ZERG — Nydus worm: What's up with the invulnerability fetish? What's the point? — Swarm hosts: I pray they reduced the health/dps of Locusts if they want to implement a flying version of them… — Corruptors: Yes, obviously they needed some AtG utility since Corruption wasn't doing the job and broods have been indirectly overnerfed (merged upgrades + HotS Ravens, Tempests) because of the end of WoL trauma. That being said the lazy copy paste from the Void is obviously poorly inspired, not to mention 3 units killing an expansion that way in a matter of seconds is a joke. — Infestor: hmm, it needs a new spell, yes — don't know about this one.
On November 08 2014 08:05 WolfintheSheep wrote: Lol, are we seriously getting balance whine already?
Gotta love the schizophrenic Starcraft community. Everyone wants change, but no one wants change.
Come on Wolf, you and I have been saying it for like 4 years now. They change the number of workers or put a number over the town hall and everyone flips their shit. Remember when they added auto split?
Thats why I love Dota, the changes just drop right on our head, no built up, no balance test map. Just Bang, change, fucking figure it out. SC2 we need like at least 5 months of hang wringing before we can touch the beta. Then once the beta hits, 45 uninformed people will post long winded ideas on what is wrong with the game, even though they are not in the beta.
And the cycle continues.
I've read this sooooo many times now. Do you know the sheer engineering power Valve has compared to other developers? Valve has a shitton of money they can invest into engineering and actually developing; thats their strength.
Blizzard is not quite there yet - it's actually gotten better for them but they do not have something like Steam backing them up. If valve screws up a feature, they still got that. If Blizzard screws up it hits them a lot harder.
On November 08 2014 08:05 WolfintheSheep wrote: Lol, are we seriously getting balance whine already?
Gotta love the schizophrenic Starcraft community. Everyone wants change, but no one wants change.
Come on Wolf, you and I have been saying it for like 4 years now. They change the number of workers or put a number over the town hall and everyone flips their shit. Remember when they added auto split?
Thats why I love Dota, the changes just drop right on our head, no built up, no balance test map. Just Bang, change, fucking figure it out. SC2 we need like at least 5 months of hang wringing before we can touch the beta. Then once the beta hits, 45 uninformed people will post long winded ideas on what is wrong with the game, even though they are not in the beta.
And the cycle continues.
Yeah, I know. I'm just surprised it only took 10 minutes before I remembered why I stopped looking at SC2 General threads.
I don't get the economy changes yet, it's written a bit sloppy here and cannot find much information online..
The simple way to think about this change is that it's an effective way to reduce the defenders advantage in order to incentivize more action while speeding up the early phase of the game.
On November 08 2014 07:55 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Wait a second...
Microtransactions are out? Does this mean Blizz is going to make their money (because, let's face it, they need a steady stream of cash from LotV once the game purchases die out) through the tournament system?
Why in the fuck does Starcraft NEED Microtransactions? Blizzard is already printing money off of Hearthstone and WoW with Heroes of the Storm coming out soon as well. Why do they NEED to do that with Starcraft also?
Because it is not profitable to support a game for a long time any other way.
On November 08 2014 08:13 Loccstana wrote: viking buff? Vikings are probably the least cost effective unit in the game right now that die to just about anything
On November 08 2014 07:45 kju wrote: I would've picked zerg if they had the lurker back in the wol beta, oh well.
I don't think changing races will be that hard with LotV.
Everyone is already playing zerg, now it will be even more ZvZ... Oh god...
At least ZvZ is really, really, really bearable in SC2 and will probably be even more bearable in Legacy of the Void. The Corruptor will give a hard-counter to massive units and the Lurker will add much needed space control. Imagine combining Lurkers with Vipers ready to spam Blinding Cloud. You'll suddenly have an invincible defence that you just can't easily knock down by attack-moving a 200/200 Roach Hydra army.
Plus Infestors with Frenzy? Siege Tanks I can pick up with a Medivac when sieged? A Mech unit that can kite larger, slower units and actually counter Stalkers? An Oracle with Envision and Revelation merged into one ability and with Stasis Trap? WANT.
HotS I could wait for. Heroes I could wait for. Hearthstone I could wait for. This? I cannot physically wait. This is going to be one of those games that I will play for months. It might even get some of my friends who traditionally hate Starcraft into the game.
On November 08 2014 07:55 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Wait a second...
Microtransactions are out? Does this mean Blizz is going to make their money (because, let's face it, they need a steady stream of cash from LotV once the game purchases die out) through the tournament system?
Why in the fuck does Starcraft NEED Microtransactions? Blizzard is already printing money off of Hearthstone and WoW with Heroes of the Storm coming out soon as well. Why do they NEED to do that with Starcraft also?
Because it is not profitable to support a game for a long time any other way.
And while Hearthstone and WoW generate a ton of money, they aren't free to develop either. Sustaining a game off of another game is nothing you can "just do".
On November 08 2014 07:54 Vindicare605 wrote: Some conflicting reports on the economy changes.
I was confused too, but it makes sense. Right now 16 workers is most efficient, while 24 is maximum saturation. In LotV 12 workers will be most efficient while 16 is maximum saturation. So you start the game with perfect saturation for one mineral line, but not the maximum.
6 bases at 15 minute mark???? That just can't be right. Or maybe they are also reducing build time of bases by like 50% or so.
I'd suspect expansions will be cheaper and build faster? Just thinking about it makes me so hyped, it will be a different game quite frankly.
If they are willing to balance the game around bases being much cheaper and faster to build, then I don't understand why they aren't willing to redesign the Collosus.... or what about PDD of the raven.
You are gonna need to make so many changes to the races in order to get this new economy to work, and I don't have fate that Blizzard is competent enough to do this over a reasonable time period. The current economy really isn't as bad in itself as many make it out to be. Rather its the design of the units and mechanics in the game that are very poorly executed.
Well a lot might still change during the beta, we'll see. During the beta they are willing to change things a lot, so we just need enough awesome posts from smart people like you, lalush, morrow etc. :D.
On November 08 2014 08:05 WolfintheSheep wrote: Lol, are we seriously getting balance whine already?
Gotta love the schizophrenic Starcraft community. Everyone wants change, but no one wants change.
Come on Wolf, you and I have been saying it for like 4 years now. They change the number of workers or put a number over the town hall and everyone flips their shit. Remember when they added auto split?
Thats why I love Dota, the changes just drop right on our head, no built up, no balance test map. Just Bang, change, fucking figure it out. SC2 we need like at least 5 months of hang wringing before we can touch the beta. Then once the beta hits, 45 uninformed people will post long winded ideas on what is wrong with the game, even though they are not in the beta.
And the cycle continues.
Yeah, I know. I'm just surprised it only took 10 minutes before I remembered why I stopped looking at SC2 General threads.
Amateur game designer general discussion. The heavy hitters haven't even shown up yet. I expect the walls of text to be hitting soon.
But you can pick up seiged tanks, so its all good in my book.
The changes to Terran and Zerg have me excited, the Protoss changes seem kind of meh. I kind of get them from a balance perspective, but the T/Z changes make me go "wow, this looks powerful, I want to try this out" while the Protoss changes seem kind of lackluster and even involve some outright nerfs.
On November 08 2014 07:55 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Wait a second...
Microtransactions are out? Does this mean Blizz is going to make their money (because, let's face it, they need a steady stream of cash from LotV once the game purchases die out) through the tournament system?
Why in the fuck does Starcraft NEED Microtransactions? Blizzard is already printing money off of Hearthstone and WoW with Heroes of the Storm coming out soon as well. Why do they NEED to do that with Starcraft also?
Because Blizzard is a business and after a certain point they won't update the game if they're not making a lot of cash, or, given that they're paying people to manage it, operating at a loss.
They don't need microtransactions for SC2 because the game very likely already generates plenty of income via tournaments. Because of that, it practically demands they keep the game continually updated for tournament play.
Also, they've proven with Diablo 3 that they don't really need to have guaranteed future income on a game in order to continue development for it.
Haha, well they aren't being shy about their changes so I can respect that. Who knows how this will pan out, but I suspect beta will be fun at least- figuring out how to abuse a bunch of op stuff.
-I wonder how the timing works Pylon-Gateway, units vs Spawning Pool, units? Because 12 pool could very easily be the new 4 pool. It'll be adjusted over time and balance out, but I am curious how it works currently.
Terran -Hercs look pretty fun. -Cyclones look like Warhounds 2.0, or more accurately Diamondbacks from the Terran campaign. I like the idea of kiting... I just wish it involved the burst-damage, attack retreat style, rather than attack on the move. Looks like the ez version of kiting. -Tank lift. lol. I don't even know. It looks funny to me, but it'll certainly be easier to reposition them. I'd prefer heavier damage for their immobility rather than more mobility, but w/e. -Thors self-repair. They keep trying some variant of this, maybe this time it'll pan out. Focus fire in battle, this'll be useless, but after a battle, the Terran's opponent will be kicking themselves for not getting that last damage. -Banshee speed- again, who knows. I don't care for the slippy feel of most SC2 units, compared to the precise movement of wraiths so this doesn't really change my opinion. -Battlecruisers teleport. LOL. The video said no vision, but even scan + battlecruiser will make this hilarious. They've always had pretty slow movement, so this increases mobility without giving them warp-in and yamato cannon. Who knows if people will tech that high, but it's a pretty hilarious idea. Fun Beta Times for sure.
Protoss Blue Disco Race Strikes Back -Disrupter- non-directional damage If the widow mines are any indicator, these will be hell to find the perfect balance between useless and too powerful. So much glowy stuff -Immortals- never cared for the units, so anything is better than the current state. -Warp-Prism. I still maintain that to get more WP play, better burst damage is needed on units to put IN the warp-prism. (Rather than making a separate air unit for harassing) Should make for some funny trolly games in high level players vs low level players. But who knows -Carriers- sure, I guess. I just wish they had gone half measures with interceptor leashing. -Zerg able to break forcefields... I'm a fan. Don't really like FFs that much, so I am ok with a nerf. -Warping is interesting- is 8 seconds slow enough to warrant going gateways sometimes? 200% damage means Protoss will think twice before warping directly into battle. Great nerf for offensive Protoss, but it'll suck when the Protoss is getting attacked in their base. -Oracle revelation- no ideas. Probably with Lurkers in play and better banshees, more vision was needed.
Zerg -Lurkers are back- I am curious why the Lurker is suddenly viable, when they've been so adamant that it does NOT work. I feel like the spines are quite slow compared to their BW counterpart, but that'll be a balance issue. I still hate the aesthetic design on the unit. I'm curious how it'll work out for sure. -Ravager. I don't even know. I like the FF breaker aspect, and I guess we have more dodge micro, so that's good. -Nydus worm. Blizzard has tried SO hard to get these suckers to work. This seems like as good as any. -Swarm Host- They promoted pretty passive play imo, so they seem to be going with a more mobile version of it. I'm certainly curious to see how this iteration pans out. I have not a clue just looking at it. -Corrupter Caustic Spray- meh. Zerg version of the Void Ray. -Infestor- AOE Bloodlust. Sounds interesting even if it isn't quite the Dark Swarm + Crackling combo.
I'll certainly try it out in beta if I get the chance, but I doubt I'll come back because I'm having too much fun with BW. I suspect they haven't changed much with unit movement, and the sluggish feel always drove crazy even with my first worker orders. I am still a self-hating Protoss, and I see very little that wows me back to my first love. Maybe I could betray my race and try Terran in beta. I feel like Beta Terran should be quite fun.
Wow. This is the most promising update since SC2 launch in 2010. Please don't mess it up, Blizzard (they keep getting more conservative the nearer they get to relases).
EPT
If the widow mines are any indicator, these will be hell to find the perfect balance between useless and too powerful. So much glowy stuff 
