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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
How about make this unit a good vs light air units. Instead of aoe attack like now, how about when it shoots it always hits x units in the air. Even against magic box mutas. Cyclone could be the good vs armored air units. The bad part with the thor is that mech will have a really hard time beeing offensive? If cyclone lose vs mutas, and thor are so incredible immobile, would it work beeing offensive? Maybe adding widowmine could work here. And some medivacs to support the thors. | ||
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spoonmaster
United States347 Posts
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On November 11 2014 01:12 DinoMight wrote: Is it just me or do people sense some serious Protoss hate in this expansion? As a Protoss player I can't help but feel that I have nothing to be excited about. No, I think this is actually a pretty major rework of protoss (as was needed). Immortals will have all-around combat strength and protoss now has burst AOE damage in the disruptor (it is currently the only race which completely lacks this). These were the two big weaknesses of protoss and they're gone now. It's hard for me to think of a weakness in the protoss unit set now, the disruptor may look hard to land right now but I bet with force fields and time warps it's going to be fine (this is probably why time warp was nerfed). I agree that it would be nice if protoss had a fun new unit to play with, maybe if they gave the full mothership some kind of healing ability? It seems that's the only thing protoss doesn't have compared to the other races. As it stands now there is no reason to build the full mothership unless you have lots of cash to burn. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9383 Posts
The bad part with the thor is that mech will have a really hard time beeing offensive? In my opinion these should be the roles: Thor --> More mobile and it's AA vs armored should be a lot stronger when it transforms. In its default transformation mode, I like to see it's single damage vs light units slightly nerfed, but it's AOE size shold be increased. This will give the Thor the Goliath role vs protoss in BW, and due to its high splash it will be good vs large amount of Mutalisks (the "Irradiate"-role). Viking --> Higher damage vs light air units and lower damage vs armored units, lower range + more mobile. This will make it capable of assisting terran harass units vs Phoenix/Mutalisks. Moreover, transformation time should be reduced so it has more purpose being out on the map due to its stronger harass capabilities. Cyclone --> Assist the Hellion as a harass unit vs armored units/static defense. Doesn't need (a strong) AA + shouldn't counter Lurkers (Tanks should). But ofc the above changes are also given the assumption that Collosus is not targetable by anti-air, which opens up for a new role to the Viking. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 11 2014 01:31 FeyFey wrote: never forget the on creep bonus. But the Lurker has to be fast because with setup time and low range its really easy to outposition it. Wonder if the Lurker will destroy bio so heavily in the end that mech will be the only option. Still meh. Zergs get its Colossus back and Toss gets a super Baneling. Not sure how Bio wants to fight the Protoss deathball while splitting away from the Disruptor. Not sure if the Herc can keep Bio viable. I mean the rework Terran gets is awesome and only some slight Viking groundmode rework is missing to make it perfect. But they still lack those controlled mass destruction weaponry and Terran should be the ones that have em or have counters to it atleast. Well. Terran still have marauders, and marines can concave well. It should be available to add tanks for bio. I see so many possibilities here, could be rly fun. Maybe my ghost idea can work here? A spell which unburrows/unloads units. Singletarget, 50-75mana. Marines+ghost vs lurk/ling. The new robo unit doesnt die tho. Dont forget the cyclone with its range against protoss deathball. | ||
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spoonmaster
United States347 Posts
On November 11 2014 01:36 BaronVonOwn wrote: No, I think this is actually a pretty major rework of protoss (as was needed). Immortals will have all-around combat strength and protoss now has burst AOE damage in the disruptor (it is currently the only race which completely lacks this). These were the two big weaknesses of protoss and they're gone now. It's hard for me to think of a weakness in the protoss unit set now, the disruptor may look hard to land right now but I bet with force fields and time warps it's going to be fine (this is probably why time warp was nerfed). I agree that it would be nice if protoss had a fun new unit to play with, maybe if they gave the full mothership some kind of healing ability? It seems that's the only thing protoss doesn't have compared to the other races. I think most Protoss players feel slighted that they don't have a core game unit to play with like the other races and their new units. Instead protoss gets nerfs and a new T3 unit. Hopefully the hinted at new gateway unit can help fill that void. *fingers crossed* | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 11 2014 01:37 Hider wrote: In my opinion these should be the roles: - Thor --> More mobile and should be AA vs armored in one of its two "modes" and its other mode should be splash vs lots of light air units. Thus, Thor should have both the Goliath role vs protoss in BW, but due to its high splash it should also be able to assist vs large amount of Mutalisks (the "Irradiate"-role). - Viking --> Better vs light units and more mobile so it can assist terran harass units vs Phoenix/Mutalisks out on the map. --> Cyclone --> Assist the Hellion as a harass unit vs armored units/static defense. Doesn't need (a strong) AA. I would prefer if cyclones could actually fight decent/good vs some armored units. So its not purely about dodging units for em while moving around the map. It also would open up the early game stage into more fun inteactions. @thor not sure it could work with the role as a goliath vs armored since its so big. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9383 Posts
not sure it could work with the role as a goliath vs armored since its so big. I think the reason the Goliath is more fun to control is due to it being faster and more responsive. This rewards players who move around with them more, while the Thor is just completely a-movish. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 11 2014 01:06 Hider wrote: I guess Cyclone could have a role as a mobile form of mech-harassment which is better vs armored units/static defense than the Hellion. So late game you run around with Hellions and Cyclones and harass the enemy. In order to accomplish that effectively, it would benefit from a faster movement speed but shorter lockdown range. But if this works well, it could definitely add a lot of charm to mech-play. Especially combined with higher warp-in time as mech then will be able to harass protoss bases. The biggest problem for mech-play (in a world with out hardened shield, Ravens and Swarm Hosts) is its lack of offensive options in the midgame. Mech is probably the most fun against terran as bio heavy play has a harder time shutting down Hellbat and hellion harass + mech easier can make timing attacks in tvt. So if the Cyclone can make mech-play better in the midgame, I am looking very much forward to it. I think the Cyclone could be a really cool unit if it's interactions were made fun. It currently behaves like a range phoenix against mutalisks against most stuff. It would be cooler if it behaved like a hellion vs zerglings. Personally I have always wanted a semi-mobile midrange assault tank unit for Mech. The Cyclone has the potential to be exactly that, yet, somehow I feel like the insane focus on the lock-on ability makes it a very unfun unit to play against (infinite kiting). Also it stockpiles another strong anti-air unit to a playstyle that already a variety of strong and situational anti-air options in the forms of Viking, Thor, Widow Mine, Raven, Battlecruiser. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 11 2014 01:46 Hider wrote: I think the reason the Goliath is more fun to control is due to it being faster and more responsive. This rewards players who move around with them more, while the Thor is just completely a-movish. Without medivac support, thor is pretty much 100% amovish, ye. This might just encourage to make a big armee, dimish the weaknesses of the clunky thor and then move out. EDIT: so faster movementspeed might solve some stuff. But maybe the thor becomes to strong with its stats that way? Anyway, could probably be fun walking around with thor and then cyclones/hellions to harass/poke, fight at different locations on the map. Even if medivacs will be used for mobility, when they are landed they can be microed somewhat perhaps. And medivacs can run away, die, thors not useless. Could be fun if Widowmines were needed here to aid thors versus mutas. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9383 Posts
Personally I have always wanted a semi-mobile midrange assault tank unit for Mech. The Cyclone has the potential to be exactly that, yet, somehow I feel like the insane focus on the lock-on ability makes it a very unfun unit to play against (infinite kiting). Well in theory it should actually be very easy to create a good interaction here. If its lockdown range is lower (like 7/8 instead of 9), then the enemy is rewarded for moving back if the unit is being locked down and the Cyclone attempts to kite. Moreover, if the initial lock-down range is lower, then it needs to get into "danger"-zone before it can lock it up. Honestly, this could be a really fun interaction if they manage to tweak range and movement speed properly. But I just have no idea how Blizzard could mess the stats of this unit up so badly. Also it stockpiles another strong anti-air unit to a playstyle that already a variety of strong and situational anti-air options in the forms of Viking, Thor, Widow Mine, Raven, Battlecruiser. Yeh, I don't feel like Blizzard really has any plan on how they see unit roles atm. IMO Viking heavy mech vs zerg is pretty cool as long as it isn't related to massing Ravens and turtling, and I believe the Thor could be as fun as the Goliath is if they opted to redesign it. Thus, it would be 10 times better imo if they balanced the game around Cyclone being supposed to assist the Hellion vs armored/static defense, and not a unit that also is decent against AA. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On November 11 2014 01:40 spoonmaster wrote: I think most Protoss players feel slighted that they don't have a core game unit to play with like the other races and their new units. Instead protoss gets nerfs and a new T3 unit. Hopefully the hinted at new gateway unit can help fill that void. *fingers crossed* I understand that, right now protoss lacks a ground unit that they can just blindly spam/macro and do reasonably well. I am hopeful that immortals with their new 200 hp shield can accomplish this, it seems to be the intention. It will make it much stronger against hydralisks, but if you've ever tried it the current immortal already has "OK" trades against hydralisks. Zergling is still the immortal counter, but protoss already has many ways to deal with zerglings. But I like the micro direction Blizzard is taking the game, SC2 is already balanced way too heavily towards the macro side and they've been struggling to change this. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32740 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Terran: Cyclones seem pretty damn strong but I say this with a lot of caution because in the 2v2 showmatches no one really made a counter or had the time and knowledge to adapt against them, but they do seem to need tweaking. Hercs have potential but don't feel much like Terran units. Tanks able to be picked up in Siege Mode I don't mind and would help Terran in sieges, maybe make Marine/Tank viable in ZvT and TvP? Don't see Thors being used even with the emergency self-repair, their big flaw is immobility not their tanking or low HP. Banshee change I feel isn't approaching the unit correctly, and the Battlecruiser change is ok but I don't see them being used regardless. Protoss: Not a big fan of the Distruptor doesn't seem to be a particularly interesting way of introducing more splash damage and AoE, wouldn't mind something similar to the Reaver returning to be frank. Tempest changes are mixed, I'm okay with them not being capable of damaging air but 500 DoT is more of the "terrible terrible damage" philosophy. Carrier changes are okay, wouldn't mind seeing more of them. I don't mind the Warp Gate nerfs but there has to be something to compensate for it, probably better Gateway units or a new one. Stasis Trap is a good idea. Zerg: Lurker returning is great, unit was very well designed and I think it introduces some great gameplay because of the zoning capability. Ravager seems an alright way to transition out of mass Roaches and aid in Warp Gate all-ins while giving it some AA capability, but still, seems Roach balls will never die. Nydus Worms being undetectable seems a bit flawed I would think perhaps giving them more HP or maybe damaging creep wouldn't be too bad. Swarm Host changes oh goodness so needed no more passive turtle-fests. Corruptors still aren't interesting and don't feel like a great AA unit in general, and granting them a Void Ray-esque attack is not the way to go. Maybe more of a Devourer role would suffice? Hydra upgrades being combined seems a bit unnecessary, and the new Infestor spell is alright just not what I was really hoping. Economy: Was really optimistic about the economy changes but still seems that ultimately you will be restricted on three base economy just spread out on the map. Would really like to see a change to a more BW-esque economy which rewarded expansions rather than forced you to make them to keep up. General impressions: I think the Zerg changes are the best and will make the race more dynamic and mobile which is good, but Protoss and Terran need some refinement and changes. Still too much of a focus on economy harassment which I feel is going the wrong direction for battles spread across the map. Overall I think Blizzard is going in the right direction but they will have to modify. (Note I'm only Diamond and awful at Terran and Protoss and haven't watched/played as much BW compared to SC2, and of course, LotV is still in alpha so I doubt half of these complaints will even exist by the beta) | ||
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spoonmaster
United States347 Posts
On November 11 2014 01:54 BaronVonOwn wrote: But I like the micro direction Blizzard is taking the game, SC2 is already balanced way too heavily towards the macro side and they've been struggling to change this. Yeah I definitely concur with you. I'm happy with the direction things are going. I think it's silly to be worrying about any damage numbers just yet, but I'm hoping at the end of the day all three races can be happy with both their new tools and overhauls. In the most immediate case Protoss definitely needs some more love, but who knows 6 months down the road we may be saying the same thing about Zerg or Protoss. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9383 Posts
I understand that, right now protoss lacks a ground unit that they can just blindly spam/macro and do reasonably well. I am hopeful that immortals with their new 200 hp shield can accomplish this, it seems to be the intention. It will make it much stronger against hydralisks, but if you've ever tried it the current immortal already has "OK" trades against hydralisks. Zergling is still the immortal counter, but protoss already has many ways to deal with zerglings. I feel they opted for a similar solution for the Thor and the Immortla. Both units are right now so immobile so that they can't really be pulled back if target-fired during an engagement. Therefore they added a "press button to micro"-ability for both units. While this is better than nothing, I still believe this is very inferior to just the very basic (but fun) pull-back micro. Moreover, both units will still be extremely reliant on dropships for mobility, which I don't think is a long-term solution. I think dropships should be a reward for mobility but not be the only way a unit can retreat during a (lost) engagement. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Ghost: New spell or replace snipe, Singletarget, 50-70mana. It unburrows/undeplots/unsiege units. So ghost works vs the new lurkers. Marines + ghost vs ling/lurk. Ghost works vs warpprism+disruptor or reaver(if it gets implemented). Ghost works vs siegetanks. In tvt, this would perhaps mean tanks could get stronger in the early/midgame. Still problematic in tvz ofcourse with stronger tanks but maybe its doable with changes down the line. If possible, nerf the lategame of the tanks? Tvp shouldnt be a problem with stronger tanks imo, since zealots could get better vs them, immortals can have a more core role and more micro. And more changes down the line. Comment about the ghost spell? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 11 2014 01:52 Hider wrote: Well in theory it should actually be very easy to create a good interaction here. If its lockdown range is lower (like 7/8 instead of 9), then the enemy is rewarded for moving back if the unit is being locked down and the Cyclone attempts to kite. Moreover, if the initial lock-down range is lower, then it needs to get into "danger"-zone before it can lock it up. Honestly, this could be a really fun interaction if they manage to tweak range and movement speed properly. But I just have no idea how Blizzard could mess the stats of this unit up so badly. Yeh, I don't feel like Blizzard really has any plan on how they see unit roles atm. IMO Viking heavy mech vs zerg is pretty cool as long as it isn't related to massing Ravens and turtling, and I believe the Thor could be as fun as the Goliath is if they opted to redesign it. Thus, it would be 10 times better imo if they balanced the game around Cyclone being supposed to assist the Hellion vs armored/static defense, and not a unit that also is decent against AA. I feel like their idea with the Cyclone was just to create a goliath without admitting they are making a goliath. But they also wanted to make it better vs ground so they just made it better vs ground and instead of turret-kiting introduced auto-kiting on it. Similarily they wanted to recreate reaver drops without making a reaver. Just with the lurker it was just impossible to make a burrowed unit that can only attack when burrow, so they really gave in and made the lurker. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 11 2014 02:16 Big J wrote: I feel like their idea with the Cyclone was just to create a goliath without admitting they are making a goliath. But they also wanted to make it better vs ground so they just made it better vs ground and instead of turret-kiting introduced auto-kiting on it. Turret-kiting=Move and shoot with manual clicking? So it behaves a bit like move and shoot at the same time? Because the goliath couldnt really do that in broodwar. | ||
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