Following the announcements made by KeSPA and SpoTV earlier today, Blizzard just announced their plans for the 2015 World Championship Series season. Stating a desire to improve the WCS experience and building a vibrant eSports ecosystem, the World Championship Series previously consisting of WCS EU and WCS NA will merge into a "WCS Premier League"
In 2015, StarCraft II WCS will consist of three primary leagues, each running three seasons: a new, unified WCS Premier League and two global individual leagues in Korea. WCS Europe, WCS America and other eligible countries and regions will merge into a single WCS Premier League with dedicated slots for players from different regions. In Korea, the GSL returns along with a new individual league from SPOTV Games and both will be open to players from around the world who want to take on the challenge of competing in the “Capital of eSports”.
Regional Qualifier matches will be played Online
Regional Challenger matches will be played Online
Premier League RO32 Group Stage will be played onsite at the ESL Studios. Four groups will be played in the ESL Burbank studio in the US, and four groups will be played in the ESL Cologne studio in Germany.
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
In order to compete in the WCS Premier League, all participants must be a resident of a country within the home regions for regional qualifiers into WCS Challenger. All participants in WCS will be required to verify their Battle.net account and proof of residency:
Eligible countries and regions:
Europe, Africa, Middle East North America (USA, Canada) China Latin America Oceania, Southeast Asia Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau *For eligibility inquiries regarding countries not listed above, you can contact esportsteam@blizzard.com
Battle.net account verification:
The country of residence in each player’s Battle.net account must show an eligible country within the region they wish to compete before the season begins. The player’s BattleTag must match those of their public persona and be pre-approved by tournament administrators. Participants are required to play all tournaments and ladder games from the country listed on the account during the tournament season. Blizzard will check IP connections at its discretion. Participants that need to travel outside of their country of residence during the tournament will be required to provide details to Blizzard for review. Proof of residency verification:
Eligibility for Citizens: If the player is a citizen of an eligible country for the WCS Premier League, the player must provide a copy of a valid photo ID with a current address within the country.
Examples of acceptable identification Government-issued drivers license Military photo identification card Passport Health card with photo (Canada, Australia, New Zealand) Voter registration card with photo (Mexico) Health card (Denmark) Young Scot Card (Scotland) Family book (Spain) Bank card with owner’s signature and picture on reverse (Norway/Sweden) Examples of non-acceptable identification Expired identification School-issued photo identification card Gym membership card Library card Public transportation cards Private ID cards Eligibility for non-Citizens: If the player is a foreign resident of an eligible country for the WCS Premier League, the player must submit a copy of their passport along with a valid resident visa for the eligible country for an evaluation of their residency status. The visa must be acquired before the start of the qualifiers and is only considered valid if it allows the player to stay in the region, work in the region, and earn prize money in the region.
Examples of acceptable identification Professional athlete visa Work visa Student visa Examples of non-acceptable identification Expired visa Working holiday visa General tourist/visitor visa
In summary, the 2015 StarCraft II World Championship Series will feature:
- A unified WCS Premier league with residency requirements - Two global premier leagues in Korea: GSL by GOM eXP and SPOTV Games Individual League - Updated WCS Global Events requirements for partner tournaments - As before, the world’s best StarCraft II pros will compete in these leagues and global events to earn cash prizes and WCS points to bolster their individual rankings. We’ll continue to broadcast all of these top-level StarCraft II eSports competitions, and the entire system will climax at an exciting year-end championship tournament featuring the top-ranked players.
There will still be Koreans in this, since all of the EU Koreans besides San have work visas that let them compete for EU spots. Hyun will likely compete for an EU spot since he lives in Germany, and of course we'll see Polt and violet compete for NA spots.
On November 01 2014 07:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I dont know. WCS NA and WCS EU in same? That kind of sucks... 32 players in premier, so that means 32 premier spots less than now. That sucks
Kneejerk response: this is good. With regionlocked KR, this will help ensure that the foreigners who make it to BlizzCon at the end of the year are the ones who most deserve it. There'll be no farming NA while the real competition is in EU, for instance.
On November 01 2014 07:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I dont know. WCS NA and WCS EU in same? That kind of sucks... 32 players in premier, so that means 32 premier spots less than now. That sucks
This combined with the previous announcement looks and feels like a slow phasing out of support for the foreign scene. Which really, really, really, really, REALLY sucks, because that's not only most of the audience, but also most of the WORLD.
Unified league outside of Korea is really exciting to me. Grubby vs Violet, TLO vs HuK, Bunny vs Scarlett bring it on. I feel there is much more at stake being the best outside of Korea than there would have been with two separate regions. The stakes being higher can only be a good thing.
Additionally the regional qualifiers into live Ro32 are a huge improvement to the legitimacy of playing cross server for Taiwanese, Latin Americans, Chinese, etc. Now they can just play on their local servers and qualify directly into live Ro32.
Live on-site Ro16 as a legitimate event instead of Ro8 and even the finals played in the same studio in front of the same 20 people?
Same prizepool?!
I also like stricter rules on the visas as I will get more enjoyment out of both the Korean as well as the non-Korean region if several Koreans move back
On November 01 2014 07:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I dont know. WCS NA and WCS EU in same? That kind of sucks... 32 players in premier, so that means 32 premier spots less than now. That sucks
Same amount of offline games, though.
But less premier spots. Less money for pros
There is no more or less money going out to the players than before as I understand it.
On November 01 2014 07:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I like this a lot.
Unified league outside of Korea is really exciting to me. Grubby vs Violet, TLO vs HuK, Bunny vs Scarlett bring it on.
Additionally the regional qualifiers into live Ro32 are a huge improvement to the legitimacy of playing cross server for Taiwanese, Latin Americans, Chinese, etc. Now they can just play on their local servers and qualify directly into live Ro32.
Live on-site Ro16 as a legitimate event instead of Ro8 and even the finals played in the same studio in front of the same 20 people?
Same prizepool?!
whilst having some cool NA v EU matchups, i dont really understand the purpose behind such a drastic change to an otherwise mostly stable system
On November 01 2014 07:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I dont know. WCS NA and WCS EU in same? That kind of sucks... 32 players in premier, so that means 32 premier spots less than now. That sucks
Same amount of offline games, though.
But less premier spots. Less money for pros
There is no more or less money going out to the players than before as I understand it.
bloodydwarf means we used to have two premier leagues, now only one so less money for pros indeed
so... wait what? i feel like we need more details still. are they going to be expanding/emphasizing the local challenger leagues or whatever qualifiers will lead up to the global premier? if the qualifiers stay out of sight and unhyped and full of players like avilo then i think this is kind of a bad/meh change, but if there's more going on "below" premier then it could be cool
but if this is literally just meshing AM and EU together then i'm not sure what to think... i mean it will be cool to have AM and EU favorites pitted directly against each other, but beyond that idk.
On November 01 2014 07:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I like this a lot.
Unified league outside of Korea is really exciting to me. Grubby vs Violet, TLO vs HuK, Bunny vs Scarlett bring it on.
Additionally the regional qualifiers into live Ro32 are a huge improvement to the legitimacy of playing cross server for Taiwanese, Latin Americans, Chinese, etc. Now they can just play on their local servers and qualify directly into live Ro32.
Live on-site Ro16 as a legitimate event instead of Ro8 and even the finals played in the same studio in front of the same 20 people?
Same prizepool?!
whilst having some cool NA v EU matchups, i dont really understand the purpose behind such a drastic change to an otherwise mostly stable system
stable? viewerships are dropping like crazy... Change is needed, if its for better or worse - we'll need to wait to judge that
I may have posted a bit hastily. I'll have to read more closely when I get home from work. But if Blizzard's stated intention is to get a finals with more than 16 Koreans, then this seems like a sure-fire way to do exactly not that.
On November 01 2014 07:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I dont know. WCS NA and WCS EU in same? That kind of sucks... 32 players in premier, so that means 32 premier spots less than now. That sucks
Same amount of offline games, though.
But less premier spots. Less money for pros
There is no more or less money going out to the players than before as I understand it.
How does this work with 32 less spots that have prize money (presumably)?
I may have liked it if they had expanded more if they had increased Premier to more players as there are a bit too few for countries beyond EU and NA. I'm not certain it would work out logistically though, so maybe not.
"Eligibility for non-Citizens: If the player is a foreign resident of an eligible country for the WCS Premier League, the player must submit a copy of their passport along with a valid resident visa for the eligible country for an evaluation of their residency status. The visa must be acquired before the start of the qualifiers and is only considered valid if it allows the player to stay in the region, work in the region, and earn prize money in the region."
So in laymans terms, does this mean the EU koreans have to go back to Korea?
Does this mean that only 2 players from Korea can now participate in WCS or is does this graphic only apply to the new "unified" NA/Europe premier league? (i.e. do the top 16 in WCS points still goto the WCS Global Finals?)
On November 01 2014 07:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I dont know. WCS NA and WCS EU in same? That kind of sucks... 32 players in premier, so that means 32 premier spots less than now. That sucks
Same amount of offline games, though.
But less premier spots. Less money for pros
There is no more or less money going out to the players than before as I understand it.
How does this work with 32 less spots that have prize money (presumably)?
From what I heard, the total prize money will be a combination of what previously went into both regions. Obviously this means that less people will get money each season, but it will also mean that getting into Challenger/Premier will provide you with twice as large (roughly) a paycheck. With the turnover rate in top Challenger/low Premier, I don't think this will change too much.
Also, keep in mind that the Koreans that previously occupied slots no longer do.
4 groups played in the US vs 4 in Cologne also seems like a weird solution to me, I suppose ESL America was created for WCS AM and it would be shitty to abandon them now, but is this really a better way to go about it?
On November 01 2014 07:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I dont know. WCS NA and WCS EU in same? That kind of sucks... 32 players in premier, so that means 32 premier spots less than now. That sucks
Same amount of offline games, though.
But less premier spots. Less money for pros
There is no more or less money going out to the players than before as I understand it.
How does this work with 32 less spots that have prize money (presumably)?
From what I heard, the total prize money will be a combination of what previously went into both regions. Obviously this means that less people will get money each season, but it will also mean that getting into Challenger/Premier will provide you with twice as large (roughly) a paycheck. With the turnover rate in top Challenger/low Premier, I don't think this will change too much.
Well, not problem for NA since they dont have alot players But for EU
On November 01 2014 07:58 stevethemacguy wrote: Does this mean that only 2 players from Korea can now participate in WCS or is does this graphic only apply to the new "unified" NA/Europe premier league?
San/Leenock/PartinG if they want to participate here and not in GSL can qualify through Taiwan, MC, MMA, ForGG, mYi, GEM guys and some else can play in EU with work visas and Polt/viOlet with arguably SuperNova and for Hydra for NA.
On November 01 2014 07:53 Teoita wrote: How strict exactly are the new visa requirements?
Yeah i wonder... earlier i saw a thread on reddit saying that forgg would not be able to keep playing in WCS EU ? that would be fucked up, the guy is living in germany since 2 years... He just went back like 2 or 3 times to korea for a month to see his family and such Otherwise that looks cool! I'm looking forward to this.. Wonder how the NA/EU balance will be ? I think the best na pro are close to the best eu pros skillwise
"Participants are required to play all tournaments and ladder games from the country listed on the account during the tournament season. Blizzard will check IP connections at its discretion."
No more farming Korean ladder for practice if you aren't in the GSL or SpoTV League.
On November 01 2014 07:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I dont know. WCS NA and WCS EU in same? That kind of sucks... 32 players in premier, so that means 32 premier spots less than now. That sucks
Same amount of offline games, though.
But less premier spots. Less money for pros
There is no more or less money going out to the players than before as I understand it.
How does this work with 32 less spots that have prize money (presumably)?
From what I heard, the total prize money will be a combination of what previously went into both regions. Obviously this means that less people will get money each season, but it will also mean that getting into Challenger/Premier will provide you with twice as large (roughly) a paycheck. With the turnover rate in top Challenger/low Premier, I don't think this will change too much.
Well, not problem for NA since they dont have alot players But for EU
China and Taiwan have too few spots too. I'm not sure about Sea beyond Iaguz, Petreaus, Pig and KingKong since I dont follow it as close as the others.
On November 01 2014 08:00 SNSeigifried wrote: Okay so from what i see we will now have HyuN/MC/YoDa/First/jjakji/StarDust/Sacsri/violet/Polt/ForGG/Hydra/SuperNova into this unified WCS
To my best knowledge the majority of those guys (except Polt/Violet) are on working holiday visas and would never be eligible for a regular work visa.
On November 01 2014 07:58 stevethemacguy wrote: Does this mean that only 2 players from Korea can now participate in WCS or is does this graphic only apply to the new "unified" NA/Europe premier league?
San/Leenock/PartinG if they want to participate here and not in GSL can qualify through Taiwan, MC, MMA, ForGG, mYi, GEM guys and some else can play in EU with work visas and Polt/viOlet with arguably SuperNova and for Hydra for NA.
On November 01 2014 07:58 stevethemacguy wrote: Does this mean that only 2 players from Korea can now participate in WCS or is does this graphic only apply to the new "unified" NA/Europe premier league?
San/Leenock/PartinG if they want to participate here and not in GSL can qualify through Taiwan, MC, MMA, ForGG, mYi, GEM guys and some else can play in EU with work visas and Polt/viOlet with arguably SuperNova and for Hydra for NA.
I'm reasonably sure most of those will have to return to Korea. I know at least ForGG has to.
On November 01 2014 08:00 SNSeigifried wrote: Okay so from what i see we will now have HyuN/MC/YoDa/First/jjakji/StarDust/Sacsri/violet/Polt/ForGG/Hydra/SuperNova into this unified WCS
To my best knowledge the majority of those guys are on working holiday visas and would never be eligible for a regular work visa.
On November 01 2014 07:58 stevethemacguy wrote: Does this mean that only 2 players from Korea can now participate in WCS or is does this graphic only apply to the new "unified" NA/Europe premier league?
San/Leenock/PartinG if they want to participate here and not in GSL can qualify through Taiwan, MC, MMA, ForGG, mYi, GEM guys and some else can play in EU with work visas and Polt/viOlet with arguably SuperNova and for Hydra for NA.
Again same thing here.
Yes indeed, all of the koreans living in germany have a holiday visas (super easy to have with a german-korean agreement)
On November 01 2014 08:01 Lunareste wrote: "Participants are required to play all tournaments and ladder games from the country listed on the account during the tournament season. Blizzard will check IP connections at its discretion."
No more farming Korean ladder for practice if you aren't in the GSL or SpoTV League.
"the country listed on the account" i doubt blizz is going to prevent anyone from having a KR account
Well then...I was happy to see big changes after year one, but it sucks that the biggest tournament series in Starcraft is turning into a long term experiment. They really need to nail something down
On November 01 2014 08:04 Yorkie wrote: Well then...I was happy to see big changes after year one, but it sucks that the biggest tournament series in Starcraft is turning into a long term experiment. They really need to nail something down
They need to nail something when it's good enough, not rush and settle on something that isn't good.
On November 01 2014 07:58 stevethemacguy wrote: Does this mean that only 2 players from Korea can now participate in WCS or is does this graphic only apply to the new "unified" NA/Europe premier league? (i.e. do the top 16 in WCS points still goto the WCS Global Finals?)
Korea runs entirely independent of whatever the unified WCS does.
While this would make sense as a Foreigner League, the allowance of some Koreans with seniority ultimately ruin it as a WCS World-outside-of-Korea tourney. I hope Copa America gets expanded upon in order to compensate.
Nice, but I don't understand why there are so many different regional qualifiers.
I mean Europe, Africa and the middle east are put together because I guess the players on these regions tend to play on EU anyways. But why seperating North America and Latin America and what about South America aren't they also playing on the same server? Likewise, why seperating Taiwan and SEA (in fact, I would also merge China into that region even though they have dedicated servers)?
On November 01 2014 07:58 stevethemacguy wrote: Does this mean that only 2 players from Korea can now participate in WCS or is does this graphic only apply to the new "unified" NA/Europe premier league?
San/Leenock/PartinG if they want to participate here and not in GSL can qualify through Taiwan, MC, MMA, ForGG, mYi, GEM guys and some else can play in EU with work visas and Polt/viOlet with arguably SuperNova and for Hydra for NA.
I'm reasonably sure most of those will have to return to Korea. I know at least ForGG has to.
On November 01 2014 08:04 Yorkie wrote: Well then...I was happy to see big changes after year one, but it sucks that the biggest tournament series in Starcraft is turning into a long term experiment. They really need to nail something down
They need to nail something when it's good enough, not rush and settle on something that isn't good.
How many more years do you think they have to kick ideas around? WCS works. It is already "good enough." Sure improvements can be made, like the region locking. But these changes are more than improvements, it's a complete overhaul. This game is not in a stage where we can say "Well by 2018 the system will be amazing."
Damn, one global premier league, was not expecting that one. I have no idea what this will be like until we see it in action so I'm optimistic, I'm really curious to see if we can have some foreign representation in the Korean Starleagues. I'm not sure if I like the drastic change but its what Blizzard and co. believe will work, so we will just have to see.
On November 01 2014 08:04 Yorkie wrote: Well then...I was happy to see big changes after year one, but it sucks that the biggest tournament series in Starcraft is turning into a long term experiment. They really need to nail something down
They need to nail something when it's good enough, not rush and settle on something that isn't good.
How many more years do you think they have to kick ideas around? WCS works. It is already "good enough." Sure improvements can be made, like the region locking. But these changes are more than improvements, it's a complete overhaul. This game is not in a stage where we can say "Well by 2018 the system will be amazing."
This game is also not in a stage where we can say "lets keep the status quo for now" because viewerships are dropping like crazy
On November 01 2014 08:04 Yorkie wrote: Well then...I was happy to see big changes after year one, but it sucks that the biggest tournament series in Starcraft is turning into a long term experiment. They really need to nail something down
They need to nail something when it's good enough, not rush and settle on something that isn't good.
How many more years do you think they have to kick ideas around? WCS works. It is already "good enough." Sure improvements can be made, like the region locking. But these changes are more than improvements, it's a complete overhaul. This game is not in a stage where we can say "Well by 2018 the system will be amazing."
I see this as a clear improvement and I have no idea why you would argue against a clear improvement. It sucks that they didn't do this from the beginning, but not sure what the point is of repeating that over and over.
"The format will be successful viewership wise but it's taking so much money away from supporting EU and NA players. Maybe they'll rework the prize distribution for challenger league? I know some NA LoL teams were interested in sc2 when the Koreans being pushed out was announced but now the way it will work I think their interest is gonna fade away once again."
On November 01 2014 08:04 Yorkie wrote: Well then...I was happy to see big changes after year one, but it sucks that the biggest tournament series in Starcraft is turning into a long term experiment. They really need to nail something down
They need to nail something when it's good enough, not rush and settle on something that isn't good.
How many more years do you think they have to kick ideas around? WCS works. It is already "good enough." Sure improvements can be made, like the region locking. But these changes are more than improvements, it's a complete overhaul. This game is not in a stage where we can say "Well by 2018 the system will be amazing."
I see this as a clear improvement and I have no idea why you would argue against a clear improvement. It sucks that they didn't do this from the beginning, but not sure what the point is of repeating that over and over.
Obviously I disagree with you? I don't think we can definitively say that this is a clear improvement. We have to wait and see. And if things aren't a lot better we're back to the drawing board at the end of 2015.
On November 01 2014 08:04 Yorkie wrote: Well then...I was happy to see big changes after year one, but it sucks that the biggest tournament series in Starcraft is turning into a long term experiment. They really need to nail something down
They need to nail something when it's good enough, not rush and settle on something that isn't good.
How many more years do you think they have to kick ideas around? WCS works. It is already "good enough." Sure improvements can be made, like the region locking. But these changes are more than improvements, it's a complete overhaul. This game is not in a stage where we can say "Well by 2018 the system will be amazing."
I see this as a clear improvement and I have no idea why you would argue against a clear improvement. It sucks that they didn't do this from the beginning, but not sure what the point is of repeating that over and over.
But you won't see TLO vs HuK if they don't get into premier what is only 32 spots...
On November 01 2014 08:04 Yorkie wrote: Well then...I was happy to see big changes after year one, but it sucks that the biggest tournament series in Starcraft is turning into a long term experiment. They really need to nail something down
They need to nail something when it's good enough, not rush and settle on something that isn't good.
How many more years do you think they have to kick ideas around? WCS works. It is already "good enough." Sure improvements can be made, like the region locking. But these changes are more than improvements, it's a complete overhaul. This game is not in a stage where we can say "Well by 2018 the system will be amazing."
I see this as a clear improvement and I have no idea why you would argue against a clear improvement. It sucks that they didn't do this from the beginning, but not sure what the point is of repeating that over and over.
Obviously I disagree with you? I don't think we can definitively say that this is a clear improvement. We have to wait and see. And if things aren't a lot better we're back to the drawing board at the end of 2015.
I thought your point was that they should stop changing things not that it wasn't an improvement. If you don't think it is an improvement then by all means say it is a bad idea. Just don't say they shouldn't have done it even if it was an improvement.
On November 01 2014 08:19 Tanzklaue wrote: i love how next year, instead of punishing players for staying in korea, we now punish players for wanting to play outside of korea.
way to go!
Korea is not region locked, they can just go to Korea =)
On November 01 2014 08:04 Yorkie wrote: Well then...I was happy to see big changes after year one, but it sucks that the biggest tournament series in Starcraft is turning into a long term experiment. They really need to nail something down
They need to nail something when it's good enough, not rush and settle on something that isn't good.
How many more years do you think they have to kick ideas around? WCS works. It is already "good enough." Sure improvements can be made, like the region locking. But these changes are more than improvements, it's a complete overhaul. This game is not in a stage where we can say "Well by 2018 the system will be amazing."
I see this as a clear improvement and I have no idea why you would argue against a clear improvement. It sucks that they didn't do this from the beginning, but not sure what the point is of repeating that over and over.
Obviously I disagree with you? I don't think we can definitively say that this is a clear improvement. We have to wait and see. And if things aren't a lot better we're back to the drawing board at the end of 2015.
I thought your point was that they should stop changing things not that it wasn't an improvement. If you don't think an improvement then by all means think it is a bad idea. Just don't say they shouldn't have done it even if it was an improvement.
I don't think they should stop changing things. I just think that completely overhauling the system every November sucks. Making smaller changes like the region lock from earlier this year is a great idea, I just think this massive shift is the wrong way to go about it. If it ends up being a net positive I'll be super happy obviously but for now I'm skeptical about leaving a tried and true system entirely
On November 01 2014 08:19 Tanzklaue wrote: i love how next year, instead of punishing players for staying in korea, we now punish players for wanting to play outside of korea.
way to go!
This basically sidesteps the largest punishment that anyone has had to deal with throughout all of Starcraft: The punishment for not being BORN in Korea. The region lock sounded like it was starting to try and alleviate that problem. Now it's adding to it.
Unexpectedly strict visa requirements. Without working holiday visa pretty much all Koreans are out of the unified Premier League, I guess. I think Polt and viOlet are exceptions?
On November 01 2014 08:19 Tanzklaue wrote: i love how next year, instead of punishing players for staying in korea, we now punish players for wanting to play outside of korea.
way to go!
Korea is not region locked, they can just go to Korea =)
On November 01 2014 07:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I dont know. WCS NA and WCS EU in same? That kind of sucks... 32 players in premier, so that means 32 premier spots less than now. That sucks
Same amount of offline games, though.
But less premier spots. Less money for pros
There is no more or less money going out to the players than before as I understand it.
How does this work with 32 less spots that have prize money (presumably)?
From what I heard, the total prize money will be a combination of what previously went into both regions. Obviously this means that less people will get money each season, but it will also mean that getting into Challenger/Premier will provide you with twice as large (roughly) a paycheck. With the turnover rate in top Challenger/low Premier, I don't think this will change too much.
Well, not problem for NA since they dont have alot players But for EU
China and Taiwan have too few spots too. I'm not sure about Sea beyond Iaguz, Petreaus, Pig and KingKong since I dont follow it as close as the others.
"Too few" is very relative.
It's too few to accommodate all the players in China and Taiwan who want to play SC2 professionally, but it's not too few relative to how many opportunities Koreans get relative to their skill level, even in 2015.
On November 01 2014 08:21 SinCitta wrote: Unexpectedly strict visa requirements. Without working holiday visa pretty much all Koreans are out of the unified Premier League, I guess.
Which makes sense, given that fewer players can now get into Premier.
On November 01 2014 08:19 Tanzklaue wrote: i love how next year, instead of punishing players for staying in korea, we now punish players for wanting to play outside of korea.
way to go!
Korea is not region locked, they can just go to Korea =)
or we keep the old system and those stupid lazy koreans can just leave korea and go play outside of korea!
I mean, your argument isn't even refuting mine. going to korea might be the only choice left for most koreans, whether they like it or not. that means no more koreans playing outside of the korean ladder, which means all the improvement in gameplayquality we saw from foreign starcraft this year will come to a screeching hault.
On November 01 2014 08:19 Tanzklaue wrote: i love how next year, instead of punishing players for staying in korea, we now punish players for wanting to play outside of korea.
way to go!
Korea is not region locked, they can just go to Korea =)
or we keep the old system and those stupid lazy koreans can just leave korea and go play outside of korea!
I mean, your argument isn't even refuting mine. going to korea might be the only choice left for most koreans, whether they like it or not. that means no more koreans playing outside of the korean ladder, which means all the improvement in gameplayquality we saw from foreign starcraft this year will come to a screeching hault.
I'm not refuting an argument =) just saying they can go to Korea since there are way more opportunities now
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
Except for the ro32. And Challenger League. We had offline ro16s already for EU and AM. I'll be happy if they're playing in bigger venues but we're getting fewer offline Starcraft out of this, not more (Not counting the new Korean tournaments which is all good news)
Code A sure is going to be even more stacked next year aswell as retirements most likely as Korea simply won't be able to support all those players they have atm+returning korean players from WCS America/Europe with just 3 GSLs and 3 KeSPA Cups.
but i like it alot ! would have never watched wcs america with no koreans in it, but now its way more fun to watch , EU VS AM vs ASIA(except korea) is way more fun than just AM vs Asia(except korea)
and "The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event"
i guess no more studio finals anymore?? real venue?? huraaayyy
On November 01 2014 08:27 Killmouse wrote: havnt read it all atm
but i like it alot ! would have never watched wcs america with no koreans in it, but now its way more fun to watch , EU VS AM vs ASIA(except korea) is way more fun than just AM vs Asia(except korea)
and "The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event"
i guess no more studio finals anymore?? real venue?? huraaayyy
From what I heard, they're aiming for venues like the places Red Bull hosted their tournaments in this year.
Sounds really interesting, this seems to legitimize the primier events outside of Korea a lot more. Challenger will get a lot more recognition, WCS America w/o koreans, won't get easy undeserved money. I'm looking forward to it.
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
Except for the ro32. And Challenger League. We had offline ro16s already for EU and AM. I'll be happy if they're playing in bigger venues but we're getting fewer offline Starcraft out of this, not more (Not counting the new Korean tournaments which is all good news)
"Premier League RO32 Group Stage will be played onsite at the ESL Studios. Four groups will be played in the ESL Burbank studio in the US, and four groups will be played in the ESL Cologne studio in Germany."
On November 01 2014 08:29 ivancype wrote: "The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event."
I really hope they make this a big live event, like the 2013 season finals in Canada.
But about the overall changes, I have a feeling that the situation for Koreans improved and for the foreigners and koreigners worsened...
Also, is Mexico part of the Latin America or NA qualifiers?
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
Except for the ro32. And Challenger League. We had offline ro16s already for EU and AM. I'll be happy if they're playing in bigger venues but we're getting fewer offline Starcraft out of this, not more (Not counting the new Korean tournaments which is all good news)
"Premier League RO32 Group Stage will be played onsite at the ESL Studios. Four groups will be played in the ESL Burbank studio in the US, and four groups will be played in the ESL Cologne studio in Germany."
Soooo are they changing how the seeding for ro32 groups work or are we just cool with a bunch of EU players driving past Cologne to catch a plane to Burbank and vice versa
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
uh the ro32 will be online unless i'm not reading this right?
On November 01 2014 08:27 Yorkie wrote:
On November 01 2014 08:25 Musicus wrote:
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
Except for the ro32. And Challenger League. We had offline ro16s already for EU and AM. I'll be happy if they're playing in bigger venues but we're getting fewer offline Starcraft out of this, not more (Not counting the new Korean tournaments which is all good news)
"Premier League RO32 Group Stage will be played onsite at the ESL Studios. Four groups will be played in the ESL Burbank studio in the US, and four groups will be played in the ESL Cologne studio in Germany."
Soooo are they changing how the seeding for ro32 groups work or are we just cool with a bunch of EU players driving past Cologne to catch a plane to Burbank and vice versa
Pretty sure in the ro32 they regions will still be devided, and the possibility of Scarlett vs Snute for example only exists from the ro16 onwards.
On November 01 2014 08:04 Yorkie wrote: Well then...I was happy to see big changes after year one, but it sucks that the biggest tournament series in Starcraft is turning into a long term experiment. They really need to nail something down
They need to nail something when it's good enough, not rush and settle on something that isn't good.
How many more years do you think they have to kick ideas around? WCS works. It is already "good enough." Sure improvements can be made, like the region locking. But these changes are more than improvements, it's a complete overhaul. This game is not in a stage where we can say "Well by 2018 the system will be amazing."
I see this as a clear improvement and I have no idea why you would argue against a clear improvement. It sucks that they didn't do this from the beginning, but not sure what the point is of repeating that over and over.
Obviously I disagree with you? I don't think we can definitively say that this is a clear improvement. We have to wait and see. And if things aren't a lot better we're back to the drawing board at the end of 2015.
I thought your point was that they should stop changing things not that it wasn't an improvement. If you don't think an improvement then by all means think it is a bad idea. Just don't say they shouldn't have done it even if it was an improvement.
I don't think they should stop changing things. I just think that completely overhauling the system every November sucks. Making smaller changes like the region lock from earlier this year is a great idea, I just think this massive shift is the wrong way to go about it. If it ends up being a net positive I'll be super happy obviously but for now I'm skeptical about leaving a tried and true system entirely
I'm not cerrtain the current system was tried and true. You'd probably need the numbers, amount invested, ROI, salaries, information from leagues like DH, MLG and IEM, overall travel costs, etc.
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
uh the ro32 will be online unless i'm not reading this right?
On November 01 2014 08:27 Yorkie wrote:
On November 01 2014 08:25 Musicus wrote:
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
Except for the ro32. And Challenger League. We had offline ro16s already for EU and AM. I'll be happy if they're playing in bigger venues but we're getting fewer offline Starcraft out of this, not more (Not counting the new Korean tournaments which is all good news)
"Premier League RO32 Group Stage will be played onsite at the ESL Studios. Four groups will be played in the ESL Burbank studio in the US, and four groups will be played in the ESL Cologne studio in Germany."
Soooo are they changing how the seeding for ro32 groups work or are we just cool with a bunch of EU players driving past Cologne to catch a plane to Burbank and vice versa
Pretty sure in the ro32 they regions will still be devided, and the possibility of Scarlett vs Snute for example only exists from the ro16 onwards.
Is this you guessing or is that somewhere in Blizzard's announcement? Otherwise that doesn't sound consistent with the idea of unification at all.
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
uh the ro32 will be online unless i'm not reading this right?
On November 01 2014 08:27 Yorkie wrote:
On November 01 2014 08:25 Musicus wrote:
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
Except for the ro32. And Challenger League. We had offline ro16s already for EU and AM. I'll be happy if they're playing in bigger venues but we're getting fewer offline Starcraft out of this, not more (Not counting the new Korean tournaments which is all good news)
"Premier League RO32 Group Stage will be played onsite at the ESL Studios. Four groups will be played in the ESL Burbank studio in the US, and four groups will be played in the ESL Cologne studio in Germany."
Soooo are they changing how the seeding for ro32 groups work or are we just cool with a bunch of EU players driving past Cologne to catch a plane to Burbank and vice versa
Pretty sure in the ro32 they regions will still be devided, and the possibility of Scarlett vs Snute for example only exists from the ro16 onwards.
There is no way they can guarantee that. What if more than 16 players in season 2 are from a single region? (EU for example)
On November 01 2014 08:04 Yorkie wrote: Well then...I was happy to see big changes after year one, but it sucks that the biggest tournament series in Starcraft is turning into a long term experiment. They really need to nail something down
They need to nail something when it's good enough, not rush and settle on something that isn't good.
How many more years do you think they have to kick ideas around? WCS works. It is already "good enough." Sure improvements can be made, like the region locking. But these changes are more than improvements, it's a complete overhaul. This game is not in a stage where we can say "Well by 2018 the system will be amazing."
I see this as a clear improvement and I have no idea why you would argue against a clear improvement. It sucks that they didn't do this from the beginning, but not sure what the point is of repeating that over and over.
Obviously I disagree with you? I don't think we can definitively say that this is a clear improvement. We have to wait and see. And if things aren't a lot better we're back to the drawing board at the end of 2015.
I thought your point was that they should stop changing things not that it wasn't an improvement. If you don't think an improvement then by all means think it is a bad idea. Just don't say they shouldn't have done it even if it was an improvement.
I don't think they should stop changing things. I just think that completely overhauling the system every November sucks. Making smaller changes like the region lock from earlier this year is a great idea, I just think this massive shift is the wrong way to go about it. If it ends up being a net positive I'll be super happy obviously but for now I'm skeptical about leaving a tried and true system entirely
I'm not cerrtain the current system was tried and true. You'd probably need the numbers, amount invested, ROI, salaries, information from leagues like DH, MLG and IEM, overall travel costs, etc.
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
uh the ro32 will be online unless i'm not reading this right?
On November 01 2014 08:27 Yorkie wrote:
On November 01 2014 08:25 Musicus wrote:
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
Except for the ro32. And Challenger League. We had offline ro16s already for EU and AM. I'll be happy if they're playing in bigger venues but we're getting fewer offline Starcraft out of this, not more (Not counting the new Korean tournaments which is all good news)
"Premier League RO32 Group Stage will be played onsite at the ESL Studios. Four groups will be played in the ESL Burbank studio in the US, and four groups will be played in the ESL Cologne studio in Germany."
Soooo are they changing how the seeding for ro32 groups work or are we just cool with a bunch of EU players driving past Cologne to catch a plane to Burbank and vice versa
Pretty sure in the ro32 they regions will still be devided, and the possibility of Scarlett vs Snute for example only exists from the ro16 onwards.
Is this you guessing or is that somewhere in Blizzard's announcement? Otherwise that doesn't sound consistent with the idea of unification at all.
No that's just me guessing. That's just how I understood it, since I didn't think they'd fly europeans to Burbank for the ro32 when there is a studio in cologne.
Edit: I guess that doesn't make sense now that I think about it, since they would have to combine EU (14 players) with one of the 2 player regions and that would just not make sense .
So I guess people will fly a lot for WCS next year :D.
On November 01 2014 08:19 Tanzklaue wrote: i love how next year, instead of punishing players for staying in korea, we now punish players for wanting to play outside of korea.
way to go!
Korea is not region locked, they can just go to Korea =)
or we keep the old system and those stupid lazy koreans can just leave korea and go play outside of korea!
I mean, your argument isn't even refuting mine. going to korea might be the only choice left for most koreans, whether they like it or not. that means no more koreans playing outside of the korean ladder, which means all the improvement in gameplayquality we saw from foreign starcraft this year will come to a screeching hault.
I'm not refuting an argument =) just saying they can go to Korea since there are way more opportunities now
except if you're korean, then you have only the option of playing in korea and hope to have any kind of success in the harshest, most brutal environment in which only few can even consistently reach the ro16 of a tournament because everything is so volatile and brutal.
that's not how you build a living. it also limits koreans going to weekendtournaments, since travel costs from korea to other countries are way higher than for example traveling from switzerland to germany or sweden.
we will also see way more foreigners high up in the WCS rankings thanks to this, but without actual koreans in their respective regions and only having the occassional weekendtournament with (now presumably much less) korean opposition will lead to them being just complete and utter stompfodder for the koreans that managed to qualify.
I may be doomsaying, but i don't like these changes. a healthy amount of koreans, like WCS EU had, is good for the scene. it helps foreigners, and gives koreans a chance to chase their dreams and see the world and collect experience. we did see what happens if there are too many koreans in a region, and none of them actually play ladder in the region, since there are no teamhouses for them there, thus not developing the scene, but i feel like we should find a middle ground between compelte korean seclution and koreans overrunning a region without contributing to the regions skill development.
On November 01 2014 08:04 Yorkie wrote: Well then...I was happy to see big changes after year one, but it sucks that the biggest tournament series in Starcraft is turning into a long term experiment. They really need to nail something down
They need to nail something when it's good enough, not rush and settle on something that isn't good.
How many more years do you think they have to kick ideas around? WCS works. It is already "good enough." Sure improvements can be made, like the region locking. But these changes are more than improvements, it's a complete overhaul. This game is not in a stage where we can say "Well by 2018 the system will be amazing."
I see this as a clear improvement and I have no idea why you would argue against a clear improvement. It sucks that they didn't do this from the beginning, but not sure what the point is of repeating that over and over.
Obviously I disagree with you? I don't think we can definitively say that this is a clear improvement. We have to wait and see. And if things aren't a lot better we're back to the drawing board at the end of 2015.
I thought your point was that they should stop changing things not that it wasn't an improvement. If you don't think an improvement then by all means think it is a bad idea. Just don't say they shouldn't have done it even if it was an improvement.
I don't think they should stop changing things. I just think that completely overhauling the system every November sucks. Making smaller changes like the region lock from earlier this year is a great idea, I just think this massive shift is the wrong way to go about it. If it ends up being a net positive I'll be super happy obviously but for now I'm skeptical about leaving a tried and true system entirely
I'm not cerrtain the current system was tried and true. You'd probably need the numbers, amount invested, ROI, salaries, information from leagues like DH, MLG and IEM, overall travel costs, etc.
Well it's tried and not false. I just feel like this year is really hit or miss compared to the old system
On November 01 2014 08:29 Boucot wrote: I don't know what to think about that. Oh, ForGG, why didn't you take those bloody french lessons...
He still can't speak French?
Until july 2014, ForGG had a working visa (so the right visa). To renew it, he had to take french lessons but given that he lives with his girlfriend in Germany for around a year now it wasn't possible for him and chose to grab the same visas than HyuN/MC/other GEM guys had.
That sucks because he was the first korean to commit in the foreigner land. Not that I don't understand why Blizzard does that (and I'm rather in favor of those changes) but for a guy that lives in Europe for 2 years and a half now, it would have been nice to see a kind of tolerance.
Anyway, the Ro16>Finals in a live venue is a fucking great news. I've been waiting that for 2 years.
I think foreign scene doomsayers are missing that we may very well have an all foreigner finals of a premier event several times in 2015. Assuming someone snipes polt and violet.
On November 01 2014 08:37 Yakikorosu wrote: I think foreign scene doomsayers are missing that we may very well have an all foreigner finals of a premier event several times in 2015. Assuming someone snipes polt and violet.
Even with Polt and Violet, they are fluent in English to the degree that there would be no effective difference. They're so well-liked in the foreign community that few people at all would object to them winning.
On November 01 2014 08:19 Tanzklaue wrote: i love how next year, instead of punishing players for staying in korea, we now punish players for wanting to play outside of korea.
way to go!
Korea is not region locked, they can just go to Korea =)
or we keep the old system and those stupid lazy koreans can just leave korea and go play outside of korea!
I mean, your argument isn't even refuting mine. going to korea might be the only choice left for most koreans, whether they like it or not. that means no more koreans playing outside of the korean ladder, which means all the improvement in gameplayquality we saw from foreign starcraft this year will come to a screeching hault.
I'm not refuting an argument =) just saying they can go to Korea since there are way more opportunities now
except if you're korean, then you have only the option of playing in korea and hope to have any kind of success in the harshest, most brutal environment in which only few can even consistently reach the ro16 of a tournament because everything is so volatile and brutal.
that's not how you build a living. it also limits koreans going to weekendtournaments, since travel costs from korea to other countries are way higher than for example traveling from switzerland to germany or sweden.
we will also see way more foreigners high up in the WCS rankings thanks to this, but without actual koreans in their respective regions and only having the occassional weekendtournament with (now presumably much less) korean opposition will lead to them being just complete and utter stompfodder for the koreans that managed to qualify.
I may be doomsaying, but i don't like these changes. a healthy amount of koreans, like WCS EU had, is good for the scene. it helps foreigners, and gives koreans a chance to chase their dreams and see the world and collect experience. we did see what happens if there are too many koreans in a region, and none of them actually play ladder in the region, since there are no teamhouses for them there, thus not developing the scene, but i feel like we should find a middle ground between compelte korean seclution and koreans overrunning a region without contributing to the regions skill development.
How does a dying scene profit from higher skill level? In the end it's all about money. You could have the best game in the world and the most skilled players of all time - without viewers and money it is meaningless
On November 01 2014 08:37 Yakikorosu wrote: I think foreign scene doomsayers are missing that we may very well have an all foreigner finals of a premier event several times in 2015. Assuming someone snipes polt and violet.
Even with Polt and Violet, they are fluent in English to the degree that there would be no effective difference. They're so well-liked in the foreign community that few people at all would object to them winning.
People would still complain, let's be real. Especially about Violet.
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
uh the ro32 will be online unless i'm not reading this right?
On November 01 2014 08:27 Yorkie wrote:
On November 01 2014 08:25 Musicus wrote:
On November 01 2014 08:23 ZAiNs wrote: I feel like a lot of people are missing this line:
The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event.
It's awesome, nothing will be online in premiere leage anymore and we get real venues back .
Except for the ro32. And Challenger League. We had offline ro16s already for EU and AM. I'll be happy if they're playing in bigger venues but we're getting fewer offline Starcraft out of this, not more (Not counting the new Korean tournaments which is all good news)
"Premier League RO32 Group Stage will be played onsite at the ESL Studios. Four groups will be played in the ESL Burbank studio in the US, and four groups will be played in the ESL Cologne studio in Germany."
Soooo are they changing how the seeding for ro32 groups work or are we just cool with a bunch of EU players driving past Cologne to catch a plane to Burbank and vice versa
Pretty sure in the ro32 they regions will still be devided, and the possibility of Scarlett vs Snute for example only exists from the ro16 onwards.
There is no way they can guarantee that. What if more than 16 players in season 2 are from a single region? (EU for example)
Yep you are right, guess players will have to fly a lot for WCS then .
I don't get why they're still trying to keep up the appearance that Challenger and Premier league are different. Maybe they were in 2013, but with the 2014 and 2015 formats it's basically a big 64-player tournament where you get seeded into the ro64 or ro32 depending on how well you did the previous season. And I'm not particularly enthusiastic about EU getting twice as many spots as NA...
Last season in WCS NA and EU there were 38 non Koreans and 24 Koreans,assuming that only Violet and Polt will be able to play in those league we'll have almost the same amount of foreigners in Premier but they'll have a lot more chances of win the tournamentes or play in the upper stages of it.
The good non korean pros will be able to make much more money and we'll have 2 great events in Korea (and Proleague)
Looks like this will be great for the scene. I'm a little sad that my fellow muricans won't be getting as much easy money, but other than that I can't wait!
On November 01 2014 08:44 klipik12 wrote: I don't get why they're still trying to keep up the appearance that Challenger and Premier league are different. Maybe they were in 2013, but with the 2014 and 2015 formats it's basically a big 64-player tournament where you get seeded into the ro64 or ro32 depending on how well you did the previous season. And I'm not particularly enthusiastic about EU getting twice as many spots as NA...
Not twice... 14 for EU, 10 for NA. It looks fine to me. Resulat-wise something like twice as much for EU would be okay, but it's hard to evaluate the NA lvl since there is so few NA tourneys
On November 01 2014 08:44 klipik12 wrote: I don't get why they're still trying to keep up the appearance that Challenger and Premier league are different. Maybe they were in 2013, but with the 2014 and 2015 formats it's basically a big 64-player tournament where you get seeded into the ro64 or ro32 depending on how well you did the previous season. And I'm not particularly enthusiastic about EU getting twice as many spots as NA...
Europe has double the population of North America...
On November 01 2014 08:44 klipik12 wrote: I don't get why they're still trying to keep up the appearance that Challenger and Premier league are different. Maybe they were in 2013, but with the 2014 and 2015 formats it's basically a big 64-player tournament where you get seeded into the ro64 or ro32 depending on how well you did the previous season. And I'm not particularly enthusiastic about EU getting twice as many spots as NA...
Wcs Na was Americans + SEA + Asian (Non korean) players = 18 spots,Eu is 14.
On November 01 2014 08:19 Tanzklaue wrote: i love how next year, instead of punishing players for staying in korea, we now punish players for wanting to play outside of korea.
way to go!
Korea is not region locked, they can just go to Korea =)
or we keep the old system and those stupid lazy koreans can just leave korea and go play outside of korea!
I mean, your argument isn't even refuting mine. going to korea might be the only choice left for most koreans, whether they like it or not. that means no more koreans playing outside of the korean ladder, which means all the improvement in gameplayquality we saw from foreign starcraft this year will come to a screeching hault.
I'm not refuting an argument =) just saying they can go to Korea since there are way more opportunities now
except if you're korean, then you have only the option of playing in korea and hope to have any kind of success in the harshest, most brutal environment in which only few can even consistently reach the ro16 of a tournament because everything is so volatile and brutal.
that's not how you build a living. it also limits koreans going to weekendtournaments, since travel costs from korea to other countries are way higher than for example traveling from switzerland to germany or sweden.
we will also see way more foreigners high up in the WCS rankings thanks to this, but without actual koreans in their respective regions and only having the occassional weekendtournament with (now presumably much less) korean opposition will lead to them being just complete and utter stompfodder for the koreans that managed to qualify.
I may be doomsaying, but i don't like these changes. a healthy amount of koreans, like WCS EU had, is good for the scene. it helps foreigners, and gives koreans a chance to chase their dreams and see the world and collect experience. we did see what happens if there are too many koreans in a region, and none of them actually play ladder in the region, since there are no teamhouses for them there, thus not developing the scene, but i feel like we should find a middle ground between compelte korean seclution and koreans overrunning a region without contributing to the regions skill development.
How does a dying scene profit from higher skill level? In the end it's all about money. You could have the best game in the world and the most skilled players of all time - without viewers and money it is meaningless
while i don't entirely dislike foreigner vs foreigner, i don't see how a tournament exclusively for foreigners helps the scene either. most of the foreigner exclusive tournaments in recent histroy had way less viewership than those with high level koreans, or better, high level foreigners duking it out with kespas best (and winning sometimes even!).
sc2 isn't like lol, where your relative skill compared to the rest of the world isn't as important since you have a secure working environment and get paid handsomely by riot, nor is sc2 like dota, where every relevant region bolsters strong teams and any good team can beat another good team on any given day. in sc2 koreans are currently better than foreigners, mostly in terms of depth, as i firmly believe that there isn't much difference between snute and a code s korean on a good day, and that problem would be solved by having koreans play foreigners more regulary.
basically, having the same situation as we had in broodwar won't help the scene grow either. i would say that it would die way faster even.
On November 01 2014 08:44 klipik12 wrote: I don't get why they're still trying to keep up the appearance that Challenger and Premier league are different. Maybe they were in 2013, but with the 2014 and 2015 formats it's basically a big 64-player tournament where you get seeded into the ro64 or ro32 depending on how well you did the previous season. And I'm not particularly enthusiastic about EU getting twice as many spots as NA...
Europe has double the population of North America...
On November 01 2014 08:44 klipik12 wrote: I don't get why they're still trying to keep up the appearance that Challenger and Premier league are different. Maybe they were in 2013, but with the 2014 and 2015 formats it's basically a big 64-player tournament where you get seeded into the ro64 or ro32 depending on how well you did the previous season. And I'm not particularly enthusiastic about EU getting twice as many spots as NA...
Europe has double the population of North America...
Pros: *As a fellow latin american, I like that we have 2 reserved slots (even if 1 of them is going to go to MajOr 100% of the time). We can have the local players have a little bit of exposure, which is one of the things that the region lacks. *All premier league offline!
Cons: *I really dislike the fact that all 32 players have to play challenger, and against people of their same region. This means every season were gonna have a fixed number of players from each region. I would have preferred to have just some number of players drop to challenger and then fight their way back. Over time the number of players from each region would have varied according to the strenght of each region. *This is how they funded a second Korean league: they axed one WCS region and merge it into one.
I think Blizzard should try only providing pay to the 8-16 best NA employees within the gaming industry. I have a feeling they would have to hire 8 new people. This company makes it really hard to like them. I'd be very interested in seeing a player poll between the big games atm in how they view the companies behind their games. This company is so out of touch.
The "good news" is it vaguely seems like they wanted an excuse to have real visa requirements this go around. Probably in a future season, they will be like o yeah, we did nothing to improve the scene and thus will expand paying slots, while keeping the same visa requirements. As a competitive player, before I got into the game, the atmosphere was great and WCS was a big reason. Now, NA players who are GM on Korea have to contemplate retiring. All you can do is laugh at this point and wait for someone else to take over Blizzard.
I foresee Koreans retiring. I foresee NA and EU scene getting weaker. I foresee the days of WoL when Korea beat everyone because they had the best training partners and NA/EU get to train against other foreigners.
On November 01 2014 08:44 klipik12 wrote: I don't get why they're still trying to keep up the appearance that Challenger and Premier league are different. Maybe they were in 2013, but with the 2014 and 2015 formats it's basically a big 64-player tournament where you get seeded into the ro64 or ro32 depending on how well you did the previous season. And I'm not particularly enthusiastic about EU getting twice as many spots as NA...
i think it's fine that EU gets more seeds. EU has way more players, especially on a high level, so they naturally should get more seeds.
On November 01 2014 08:50 MorroW wrote: so what happens with the eukors like stardust mma yoda first jjakji etc?
No WCS for them. Either they stay and play DH, IEM etc while getting proper visa for next year, or they go back to Korea.
why not just get visas now? does it take that long?
especially in the US it can take literal years to get a visa that would qualify for WCS premier league. in the Eu you need language skills from the country you live in to get a working visa if i caught that correctly from posts in this thread. good luck learning a language like german in less than 3 months!
Honestly, I feel like with cases like ForGG Blizzard could solve it by adding a clause of (or having at least lived x amount of time in certain region). It would prevent the people that just fly over from Korea to participate in WCS but would allow people that really added to the scene in the NA/EU region.
What I have disliked Ro16 offline in EU and USA. They fly to a venue, play 2xBo3 and end. I can think that this feels so unrewarded and unmotivated for players. Now EU players have to fly to USA for 2x Bo3 (Ro32) and then they fly to a venue in EU for another 2xBo3.
this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
Okay, never payed much attention to WCS EU and US so I can't really comment on that part.
I'm really glad that blizzard is getting more Korea oriented. I'm always behind supporting the best of the best.
And to ForGG and people in similar situation. I'm sorry but it's kind of logical that you need to be a citizen of a certain country to make a living there. I live in Serbia, which is not European union country, and it's damn hard to get a working visa to go like work in Austria/Germany and you can only get it for like 2-3 months.
On November 01 2014 08:56 stuchiu wrote: The only Koreans that'll get visas in time for this are Violet and Polt since they already have them?
yep.
WCS premier will be a constant top 8 of polt, violet, snute, bunny, scarlett, sen, huk and vortix next year.
Things happen. We tend to overestimate consistency of players and underestimate the strength of others in their region. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Ro8 with only 1-3 of those players.
thanks alot guys! well i for one hope they move back and wcs eu becomes what i hoped itd be years ago haha i think most eu pros would agree the with me here. better practice is nice but fighting them in all tours (including the smallest weekly cups) has surely made it difficult to get by these days money-wise, speaking as a mid-tier foreiger pro here
On November 01 2014 09:00 projectChaos wrote: this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
Umm... that's not what's happening here. That was announced like a month ago.
On November 01 2014 09:00 projectChaos wrote: this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
Did you miss the announcement about the Korean scene earlier today?
On November 01 2014 08:56 stuchiu wrote: The only Koreans that'll get visas in time for this are Violet and Polt since they already have them?
JYP as well I think.
Balloon?
He moved back to Korea and will study there according to dude at reddit.
On November 01 2014 09:01 MorroW wrote: Tanzklaue DJHelium
thanks alot guys! well i for one hope they move back and wcs eu becomes what i hoped itd be years ago haha i think most eu pros would agree the with me here. better practice is nice but fighting them in all tours (including the smallest weekly cups) has surely made it difficult to get by these days money-wise, speaking as a mid-tier foreiger pro here
NP! I kinda agree, but in forgg's case I really think he should be eligible to play. Guess the line has to be drawn somewhere, but a couple of years of EU ladder should be enough.
And you're no mid-tier foreigner, top level for sure! Cheers
On November 01 2014 08:56 stuchiu wrote: The only Koreans that'll get visas in time for this are Violet and Polt since they already have them?
yep.
WCS premier will be a constant top 8 of polt, violet, snute, bunny, scarlett, sen, huk and vortix next year.
Things happen. We tend to overestimate consistency of players and underestimate the strength of others in their region. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Ro8 with only 1-3 of those players.
I just tend to exclude players and think too much in absolutes. players like TLO, Welmu, Major, Jim and Happy are good enough to have shots at it too.
i still think that especially the round of 16 will be filled with mostly the same players though.
boooh silly Blizzard. Kinda liked the way they went in 2014, 2015 looks like they gave up on what they wanted to achieve. I'll miss the epicly stacked IEMs and Dreamhacks the most though. Just a personal problem though, as many like the changes for now. I'll just put all my hopes into unique map pools being used. Already curious how the end of 2015, really need a timemachine.
On November 01 2014 09:01 v_lm wrote: Maybe ForGG can have an athlete visa for Season 2 ?
In France ? Good luck with that.
On November 01 2014 08:55 Seiniyta wrote: Honestly, I feel like with cases like ForGG Blizzard could solve it by adding a clause of (or having at least lived x amount of time in certain region). It would prevent the people that just fly over from Korea to participate in WCS but would allow people that really added to the scene in the NA/EU region.
That's what I was hoping for too. It's not like San who never lived more than 3 consecutive days in Europe. ForGG is in Europe since June 2012, StarDust since June 2013...
That's really unexpected. Unifying WCS AM and EU is not an inherently bad idea, but with only 32 players in Premier, the depth of the scene will really suffer. I hope Blizzard have more up there sleeve to remedy that.
I also dislike how the qualifiers are organized, tightly restricting the regional representation. I would have liked having a few (maybe 2-4) wild card slots where people from all the (non-KR) regions could participate. It would help offset the difference between the perceived strength of a region and their actual strength.
On November 01 2014 09:00 projectChaos wrote: this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
Yeah... if you leave the SC2 scene, i'm sure no one will miss you. You realize that what you are saying doesn't make any senses ? Did you read ? Do you know how the Korean scene is gonna be next year ? Just read the lastest news again please.
I think it's ok that most Koreans are going back to their region now with the amount of events they will have. But I am glad Polt/Violet do have an athlete visa so there is a final boss to beat so foreigner's can't be content with being the best foreigner if they want to win .
From reddit, regarding Forgg's situation : "His manager told him about "Blizzard and ESL discussing new rules" 2 weeks ago. But at that point they were still discussing so nothing was even decided yet.
Once he asked ESL staff he was told that they couldn't say anything and it would be announced soon. "
So looks like forgg has 3 months to get his working visas ^^... gl mate lol
On November 01 2014 09:00 projectChaos wrote: this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
So watch the Korean scene. They have a lot more tournaments now. Ofc Huyn and MC might not make, but at least you will be watching "high level" games.
https://twitter.com/ForGG1/status/528323647593656320 Here we go. Fuck. T_T
I thought ForGG had a "Carte de Séjour' (Residence Card) that Mil. went through a great deal to obtain for him? If so, renewing the card under the same employer shouldn't be hard at all as long as they submit the paperwork on time.
On October 07 2013 22:55 Otolia wrote: According to Millenium, he is scheduled to visit the french immigration offices in order for him to have a 1 year working permit.
https://twitter.com/ForGG1/status/528323647593656320 Here we go. Fuck. T_T
I thought ForGG had a "Carte de Séjour' (Residence Card) that Mil. went through a great deal to obtain for him? If so, renewing the card under the same employer shouldn't be hard at all as long as they submit the paperwork on time.
On October 07 2013 22:55 Otolia wrote: According to Millenium, he is scheduled to visit the french immigration offices in order for him to have a 1 year working permit.
https://twitter.com/ForGG1/status/528323647593656320 Here we go. Fuck. T_T
I thought ForGG had a "Carte de Séjour' (Residence Card) that Mil. went through a great deal to obtain for him? If so, renewing the card under the same employer shouldn't be hard at all as long as they submit the paperwork on time.
On October 07 2013 22:55 Otolia wrote: According to Millenium, he is scheduled to visit the french immigration offices in order for him to have a 1 year working permit.
Looks like his working visa ended 2 months ago and he got a "working holiday" visa in germany. Which is not a good enough visa to play in WCS EU (cf his tweet : https://twitter.com/ForGG1/status/528323647593656320)
https://twitter.com/ForGG1/status/528323647593656320 Here we go. Fuck. T_T
I thought ForGG had a "Carte de Séjour' (Residence Card) that Mil. went through a great deal to obtain for him? If so, renewing the card under the same employer shouldn't be hard at all as long as they submit the paperwork on time.
On October 07 2013 22:55 Otolia wrote: According to Millenium, he is scheduled to visit the french immigration offices in order for him to have a 1 year working permit.
On November 01 2014 09:00 projectChaos wrote: this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
Did you miss the announcement about the Korean scene earlier today?
https://twitter.com/ForGG1/status/528323647593656320 Here we go. Fuck. T_T
I thought ForGG had a "Carte de Séjour' (Residence Card) that Mil. went through a great deal to obtain for him? If so, renewing the card under the same employer shouldn't be hard at all as long as they submit the paperwork on time.
On October 07 2013 22:55 Otolia wrote: According to Millenium, he is scheduled to visit the french immigration offices in order for him to have a 1 year working permit.
On November 01 2014 08:49 messioso wrote: Every Korean in WCS Europe 2014 year was using a visa that is now disallowed.
Do you know anything about WCS AM? Which players had allowed visas?
Violet and Polt are the only two to my knowledge.
JYP?
To my knowledge. I never paid much attention to WCS America and it's players as I didn't need to. First I heard about JYP being in America was today ^^
On November 01 2014 08:51 astray71 wrote: I foresee Koreans retiring. I foresee NA and EU scene getting weaker. I foresee the days of WoL when Korea beat everyone because they had the best training partners and NA/EU get to train against other foreigners.
Am I wrong or no?
its not like foreigner ever had better chance vs koreans in Hots than in WoL
On November 01 2014 09:00 projectChaos wrote: this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
Whatever bro, the "last nail in the coffin" has been going into SC2 since end of 2011.
On November 01 2014 08:49 messioso wrote: Every Korean in WCS Europe 2014 year was using a visa that is now disallowed.
Do you know anything about WCS AM? Which players had allowed visas?
Violet and Polt are the only two to my knowledge.
JYP?
To my knowledge. I never paid much attention to WCS America and it's players as I didn't need to. First I heard about JYP being in America was today ^^
Yeah he has only been there a bit over a month I think.
Btw, do you know how (for example) #9-14 players will be decided in EU? #9-16 placed play, then losers play again and losers are out?
On November 01 2014 09:00 projectChaos wrote: this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
Whatever bro, the "last nail in the coffin" has been going into SC2 since end of 2011.
Maybe it's just a really long nail in a really fucking thick coffin
So with 28 player challenger, only 28 players get money from WCS challenger/premier (EU). This year EU had 48 people in challanger/premier. NA will have 16 player challenger.
Ro32 in 2014 Season 3 Europe: 10 Koreans, 22 Europeans America: 8 NA, 1 Latin (Mexico is Latin I guess?), 16 Koreans, 5 Chinese, 1 Taiwanese, 1 SEA
2015: 14 Europeans (-8), 8 NA (-), 4 Chinese (-1), 2 Latin (+1), 2 SEA (+1), 2 Taiwanese (+1)
is that correct?
I'm a bit sad for the Koreans that actually lived in Europe for the passed 1-2 years. StarDust, ForGG, jjakji, etc... they did help the European scene a lot I think
On November 01 2014 09:00 projectChaos wrote: this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
So watch the Korean scene. They have a lot more tournaments now. Ofc Huyn and MC might not make, but at least you will be watching "high level" games.
Guys like MC and Hyun came "here"(to the foreign world) by choice and they obviously enjoy it. Why would you force them to go back to Korea just through a formality. I can`t watch Korean tournaments because they begin very early and I rather watch tournaments life. Additionally there are other cofactors why a lot of foreigners prefer to watch foreign tournaments despite them being overrun by Koreans (especially in the later rounds) like casters, english host etc. Now we will be stucked with the Blys and Blings who are practicing 2 hours a week, it seems.
On November 01 2014 09:00 projectChaos wrote: this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
Chances are higher than ever before that you can see Hyun vs MC.
Let's hope the situation with ForGG can be fixed. It would really be a bad joke if he is not allowed to participate in WCS EU. Can't Millenium just give him a working visa? He's been around in France like since forever in esports time.
On November 01 2014 09:00 projectChaos wrote: this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
So watch the Korean scene. They have a lot more tournaments now. Ofc Huyn and MC might not make, but at least you will be watching "high level" games.
Guys like MC and Hyun came "here"(to the foreign world) by choice and they obviously enjoy it. Why would you force them to go back to Korea just through a formality. I can`t watch Korean tournaments because they begin very early and I rather watch tournaments life. Additionally there are other cofactors why a lot of foreigners prefer to watch foreign tournaments despite them being overrun by Koreans (especially in the later rounds) like casters, english host etc. Now we will be stucked with the Blys and Blings who are practicing 2 hours a week, it seems.
I think merging AM and EU is pretty interesting, it would definately mix up the foreigner scene enough and overall increase the skill level I think. But just taking two tournaments and making it into one is kinda weird imo.
Would be cool if they had two 32 player tournaments that merged into a global tournament. Say WCS AM and WCS EU held their events like usual. But the top 8 in each tournament get put into a global 16 player tournament.
On November 01 2014 09:00 projectChaos wrote: this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
So watch the Korean scene. They have a lot more tournaments now. Ofc Huyn and MC might not make, but at least you will be watching "high level" games.
Guys like MC and Hyun came "here"(to the foreign world) by choice and they obviously enjoy it. Why would you force them to go back to Korea just through a formality. I can`t watch Korean tournaments because they begin very early and I rather watch tournaments life. Additionally there are other cofactors why a lot of foreigners prefer to watch foreign tournaments despite them being overrun by Koreans (especially in the later rounds) like casters, english host etc. Now we will be stucked with the Blys and Blings who are practicing 2 hours a week, it seems.
With only 32 slots in foreigner premier, and the way it is distributed, I really doubt players of the caliber of Bly and Bling will make it to premier Maybe the latin america player who is not major will be a bit weak, and the players from SEA will be weak too, but everyone else will be very strong by foreigner standards.
On November 01 2014 09:19 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: So with 28 player challenger, only 28 players get money from WCS challenger/premier (EU). This year EU had 48 people in challanger/premier. NA will have 16 player challenger.
So in other words that means 41,7% less spots for EU players.
I don't understand why they would bother seperating in so many regional qualifiers.
There should be 3 qualifiers feeding into WCS in my opinion:
1. One qualifier played on the EU server for all players living in the EU ladder region (Europe, Africa, middle east)
2. One qualifier played on the AM server for all players living in the AM ladder region (North and South America)
3. One qualifier played on the SEA server for all players living in the SEA ladder region plus China
Starting from Season 2 onwards, each qualifier seeds 8 people into the main event, with addition 8 slots freely allocated between the three qualifiers depending on the performance of the players in the last season.
On November 01 2014 07:45 Cheren wrote: There will still be Koreans in this, since all of the EU Koreans besides San have work visas that let them compete for EU spots. Hyun will likely compete for an EU spot since he lives in Germany, and of course we'll see Polt and violet compete for NA spots.
Most of them have working holiday visas which won't count.
On November 01 2014 07:45 Cheren wrote: There will still be Koreans in this, since all of the EU Koreans besides San have work visas that let them compete for EU spots. Hyun will likely compete for an EU spot since he lives in Germany, and of course we'll see Polt and violet compete for NA spots.
Most of them have working holiday visas which won't count.
might be easier to get a working visa in Taiwan? (any Taiwanese able to confirm)?
then could be path for koreans to take, and Taiwan is close to Korea too, so they wont be moving too far i guess...
Also, about the merge of NA and EU...
theres 50% less live WCS SC2 to watch for some people...like for example you could watch WCS EU, then few hours later WCS NA comes on for tons of SC2
sure theres another korean league to watch now but its at korean standard time so for some/many? foreigners they will ahve to watch the korean leagues from vods?...
On November 01 2014 07:45 Cheren wrote: There will still be Koreans in this, since all of the EU Koreans besides San have work visas that let them compete for EU spots. Hyun will likely compete for an EU spot since he lives in Germany, and of course we'll see Polt and violet compete for NA spots.
Most of them have working holiday visas which won't count.
might be easier to get a working visa in Taiwan? (any Taiwanese able to confirm)?
then could be path for koreans to take, and Taiwan is close to Korea too, so they wont be moving too far i guess...
Also, about the merge of NA and EU...
theres 50% less live WCS SC2 to watch for some people...like for example you could watch WCS EU, then few hours later WCS NA comes on for tons of SC2
sure theres another korean league to watch now but its at korean standard time so for some/many? foreigners they will ahve to watch the korean leagues from vods?...
On November 01 2014 09:36 mikumegurine wrote: what about the koreans getting a working visa in taiwan (on taiwan teams too)
would these players be in qualifers from Taiwan then?
I remember Breaker saying once none of the Koreans on Taiwan have a working visa. Not sure if this has changed recently (he said this a few months ago), would be nice of him to drop by and tell us the status of these Koreans.
On November 01 2014 09:23 JustPassingBy wrote: Let's hope the situation with ForGG can be fixed. It would really be a bad joke if he is not allowed to participate in WCS EU. Can't Millenium just give him a working visa? He's been around in France like since forever in esports time.
A company doesn't deliver a visa. The country does.
On November 01 2014 09:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I have a massive headache and dont feel like thinking right now... can someone just tell me how to feel about this?
On November 01 2014 09:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I have a massive headache and dont feel like thinking right now... can someone just tell me how to feel about this?
On November 01 2014 09:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I have a massive headache and dont feel like thinking right now... can someone just tell me how to feel about this?
On November 01 2014 09:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I have a massive headache and dont feel like thinking right now... can someone just tell me how to feel about this?
Both good and bad. Hope it helps !
Well I already feel bad, so I guess I'll feel more good now!
On November 01 2014 09:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I have a massive headache and dont feel like thinking right now... can someone just tell me how to feel about this?
On November 01 2014 09:00 projectChaos wrote: this makes me sick and it is a good reason to leave the SC2 scene. Koreans are getting punished for their dedication and discipline for the game and you guys are celebrating it. There were no handicaps for the foreigners, and still they were not able to compete with the Koreans. I would rather watch a "high level" match between Hyun and MC than a noobgame between Mana and Huk, any day.
Such a desperate move. The last nail in the coffin.
Whatever bro, the "last nail in the coffin" has been going into SC2 since end of 2011.
Maybe it's just a really long nail in a really fucking thick coffin
Being hammered with a spoon. -
Might be too few spots for a tournament that includes the world, however. With the Korean scene getting a boost it may be that blizzard is trying to get Korean players back into Korea to gain support in Korea. This allows for more foreign players to play in WCS, whose purpose is now to give consistent competition for these players. Only a select few foreigners can challenge Koreans. With the WCS change it is designed to weed out the bad players and allow the good one's a consistent avenue for competition and improve. Shame that fewer international people can see Koreans play live due to region lock but at least Koreans won't have to leave Korea to find tournaments/ get paid. Then again there are the few that have the VISA/ residency requirements but the long term is to bring them back home. There still are the side tourney's/ LANs.
The biggest loss is lack of Koreans in prime time/ live but I guess Korea is a bigger target.
On November 01 2014 09:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I have a massive headache and dont feel like thinking right now... can someone just tell me how to feel about this?
In my opinion we have to wait until more info about the prize money distribution and the qualifier/challenger format are known. Could be really great if those are handled correctly, if not, even despite the fact that most koreans are gone, not enough players will profit from it and even less might get money/exposure than this year.
On November 01 2014 09:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I have a massive headache and dont feel like thinking right now... can someone just tell me how to feel about this?
In my opinion we have to wait until more info about the prize money distribution and the qualifier/challenger format are known. Could be really great if those are handled correctly, if not, even despite the fact that most koreans are gone, not enough players will profit from it and even less might get money/exposure than this year.
On November 01 2014 09:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I have a massive headache and dont feel like thinking right now... can someone just tell me how to feel about this?
In my opinion we have to wait until more info about the prize money distribution and the qualifier/challenger format are known. Could be really great if those are handled correctly, if not, even despite the fact that most koreans are gone, not enough players will profit from it and even less might get money/exposure than this year.
Could still be 7 groups with 4 players, top 2 advance. I don't see anything about single bo5s there. It would suck hard if they made it like that again I think.
On November 01 2014 09:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I have a massive headache and dont feel like thinking right now... can someone just tell me how to feel about this?
Feel good, I have a good feeling about this. As long as most of the Koreans go back to Korea as planned you just got the best of EU/NA + the world and it makes sense b/c I don't think there was enough depth there to run their own leagues with the Koreans gone. Especially NA. I'm personally much more excited for this as a viewer and I think it will be good for the players too. And it's good for the foreign Koreans who don't have to struggle with visas and flying around the world all the time to try and make a living, now they have a real shot to do it back home which I think they preferred. I think everyone wins here.
This is something a lot closer to what they should have been doing 2 years ago and that's what a lot of people were saying back then. It's a shame that it's taken them this long to get here when I think it's clear this is much closer to what WCS should have looked like in the first place.
Meh, doesn't seem good at all. I have no idea how they'll manage scheduling efficiently with the premier league, and merging AM and EU and kicking out the Koreans just lowers the quality. The EU qualifiers gained from having the Koreans there since players stepped up their game a lot; I wouldn't say the same about the AM servers which have less high-caliber players. I guess two Korean leagues is the silver lining, but reduced quality and fewer chances for Korean pros in the foreign scene really isn't a good solution imo.
On November 01 2014 09:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I have a massive headache and dont feel like thinking right now... can someone just tell me how to feel about this?
In my opinion we have to wait until more info about the prize money distribution and the qualifier/challenger format are known. Could be really great if those are handled correctly, if not, even despite the fact that most koreans are gone, not enough players will profit from it and even less might get money/exposure than this year.
Could still be 7 groups with 4 players, top 2 advance. I don't see anything about single bo5s there. It would suck hard if they made it like that again I think.
On November 01 2014 09:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I have a massive headache and dont feel like thinking right now... can someone just tell me how to feel about this?
In my opinion we have to wait until more info about the prize money distribution and the qualifier/challenger format are known. Could be really great if those are handled correctly, if not, even despite the fact that most koreans are gone, not enough players will profit from it and even less might get money/exposure than this year.
On November 01 2014 09:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Guys, I have a massive headache and dont feel like thinking right now... can someone just tell me how to feel about this?
In my opinion we have to wait until more info about the prize money distribution and the qualifier/challenger format are known. Could be really great if those are handled correctly, if not, even despite the fact that most koreans are gone, not enough players will profit from it and even less might get money/exposure than this year.
I just figured that even the winner of each season has to requalify. What an odd system.
If that's the case, then they already failed. Would just be stupid to see Snute, Happy, Vortix, Bunny etc knock each other out every season. I hope it's not final yet.
had to be this way imho. im sorry, but the american region would literally have been giving free money/points to Polt. Captain america won NA twice with a ton of koreans, so with him and violet being the only ones that would get to stay the level of competition would be totally screwed.
48 might have been a better number overall imo, but its also much harder to work with than 32.
On November 01 2014 10:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: So for the WCS NA+EU one you will always be in challenger next season? That's kinda odd tbh
Yeah, but maybe I don't understand it well. I feel like when you get top 8 (top 16 being maybe a bit too much), you should be automatically qualified for the next season.
Unfortunately Redeye's idea doesn't fix the lack of korean tournament situation so the b (and hell, some A teamers) have something to do all year long. I much prefer the effective changes
On November 01 2014 10:18 Zenbrez wrote: Unfortunately Redeye's idea doesn't fix the lack of korean tournament situation so the b (and hell, some A teamers) have something to do all year long. I much prefer the effective changes
I am sure ReDeYe does too. But he didn't dare to dream that the number of tournaments in Korea would just triple I think.
On November 01 2014 10:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: So for the WCS NA+EU one you will always be in challenger next season? That's kinda odd tbh
Yeah, but maybe I don't understand it well. I feel like when you get top 8 (top 16 being maybe a bit too much), you should be automatically qualified for the next season.
"all 32 return back to challenger"
So even the champ has to fight through it again, seems VERY weird to me. But i guess that's the solution to the limited amount of places.
Hmm.. I've already posted my thoughts on region locking before and don't want to go too deeply into it (here if interested -http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2ks480/kaelaris_wcs_needed_to_be_region_locked_from_the/cloct61)
Beyond this, which Koreans outside of Polt and Vi0let will be able to participate in the Na/Europe region? Also, will some Koreans try to get Work Visas in some of the smaller regions (which have lesser restrictions on work visas) in order to de-facto be a member of wcs na/europe as previously experienced the last couple of years?
Overall if you leave out the disagreements I have with region locking, I think its a solid change. At the very least it will give some Koreans at the lower end of the spectrum the ability to compete against top level competition and gain some recognition . Other than that I'm not really sure that this change will fix any of the core issues with lack of viewership. It will, in the least give some of the top foreigners a better chance at qualifying for blizzcon.
And perhaps at the macro level, its a huge deal that we are getting this. With such a low level of viewership, it is a good feeling knowing we have this level of financial and institutional support among the pro scene. Even if blizzard isn't exactly making the right steps to grow the game, or really any steps at all beyond wcs.
It also seems like Blizzard has setup quite the payday for Polt.
Challenger qualification has to be better than the luck-of-the-draw single bo5 that seems to continue. It is way too random when you consider the significantly reduced number of spots. Seeding is king, it would seem. But seeding is very unrealiable. Why do the non-korean part of WCS not implement a better system for qualification?!
No automatic qualifiers from the previous season to the next one is a lackluster system and risks creating a jarring lack of continuity between seasons. We know how volatile SC2 is, and it is impossible for even the best players to always be in top form.
Additionally, there is a significantly reduced number of tournament days for WCS. I think it's a pity. This format also removes what made the biggest difference between weekend tournaments and WCS as it has been the last two years. In WCS you generally had a chance of preparing for your opponent. This is not the case in a ro16 tournament.
On November 01 2014 10:13 Dragoonstorm7 wrote: had to be this way imho. im sorry, but the american region would literally have been giving free money/points to Polt. Captain america won NA twice with a ton of koreans, so with him and violet being the only ones that would get to stay the level of competition would be totally screwed.
48 might have been a better number overall imo, but its also much harder to work with than 32.
I may have misunderstood your post, but Polt/Violet are going to be able to stay and compete in America. They have the proper visas.
this kinda reminds me to the roots of Starcraft.. basically a more competitive korean scene and a combined "foreigner" scene, wich is reasonable, because korea was and will be always better and more competitive scene
On November 01 2014 10:45 SNSeigifried wrote: Hope this helps your perspective about new format for foreigners!!!
MC, Yoda, First, Hyun, Jakji, Stardust, Sacsri. Working Visa and student visa arent so hard to get and those mentioned live the whole year in Europe. I think 8 of 14 spots of the EU Players gonna be Korean.
I just dont like this system. While the major player base is in korea, blizzards wanted audience sits everywhere else in europa but now we have again the situation where the scene starts to concentrate only on korea. not that i do not like it, but the as a fan it was much more entertaining, when the top players ( and semi top players ) came to you as a fan, next door. Now i have to watch again during work ( impossible ) and we will soon see less and less events outside of korea till SCII is again only happening in korea like BW at its best times.
I feel like WCS europe had reached the right ratio of koreans/europeans. Enough to help the locals improving and not too much to scare them away from competing
Now if I'm egoistic for a second and think about it from a viewer perspective. This surely will be an entertaining tournament to watch if it looks anything like this:
Only thing I don't like is that they are letting the pseudo-invitationals continue and the rich will continue to get richer in that respect. 25% for qualifiers is not enough, particularly when you can then further break that down into regionals. HSC should not be getting WCS points when it's a glorified invitational inviting people TaKeTV likes plus lip-service to qualifiers with only 2 spots for Koreans (and the qualifier ends up being a better tournament than the main event as a result of the talent pool).
Frankly it should be minimum 50% qualifiers if you want any WCS points and I hope they change that before 2015 season starts.
Aside from that it's great. There aren't 32 good Americans or 32 good Europeans, so if you want games that don't suck, merging the talents pools is the way to do it.
On November 01 2014 11:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: There aren't 32 good Americans or 32 good Europeans, so if you want games that don't suck, merging the talents pools is the way to do it.
Seems like a pretty good solution overall. The issue with region locking and seperating NA and EU would be that the majority of the viewers wouldn't be interested in watching the bottom-tiers of those foreigners. By combining it, I think it will be a lot more interesting to watch.
On November 01 2014 11:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: Here it is.
Only thing I don't like is that they are letting the pseudo-invitationals continue and the rich will continue to get richer in that respect. 25% for qualifiers is not enough, particularly when you can then further break that down into regionals. HSC should not be getting WCS points when it's a glorified invitational inviting people TaKeTV likes plus lip-service to qualifiers with only 2 spots for Koreans (and the qualifier ends up being a better tournament than the main event as a result of the talent pool).
Frankly it should be minimum 50% qualifiers if you want any WCS points and I hope they change that before 2015 season starts.
Aside from that it's great. There aren't 32 good Americans or 32 good Europeans, so if you want games that don't suck, merging the talents pools is the way to do it.
I agree. All these tournaments have way too many invitations. Tournament spots should be earned, not gifted
I like this. It wouldnt have worked if so much money wasnt being dumped into the korean scene. But now there will be 9 premier tourneys in Korea next season, so this all makes total sense.
On November 01 2014 11:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: Here it is.
Only thing I don't like is that they are letting the pseudo-invitationals continue and the rich will continue to get richer in that respect. 25% for qualifiers is not enough, particularly when you can then further break that down into regionals. HSC should not be getting WCS points when it's a glorified invitational inviting people TaKeTV likes plus lip-service to qualifiers with only 2 spots for Koreans (and the qualifier ends up being a better tournament than the main event as a result of the talent pool).
Frankly it should be minimum 50% qualifiers if you want any WCS points and I hope they change that before 2015 season starts.
Aside from that it's great. There aren't 32 good Americans or 32 good Europeans, so if you want games that don't suck, merging the talents pools is the way to do it.
I agree. All these tournaments have way too many invitations. Tournament spots should be earned, not gifted
Or at least not give WCS points. I want HSC to stay invite based, but it should just not give WCS points.
On November 01 2014 11:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: Here it is.
Only thing I don't like is that they are letting the pseudo-invitationals continue and the rich will continue to get richer in that respect. 25% for qualifiers is not enough, particularly when you can then further break that down into regionals. HSC should not be getting WCS points when it's a glorified invitational inviting people TaKeTV likes plus lip-service to qualifiers with only 2 spots for Koreans (and the qualifier ends up being a better tournament than the main event as a result of the talent pool).
Frankly it should be minimum 50% qualifiers if you want any WCS points and I hope they change that before 2015 season starts.
Aside from that it's great. There aren't 32 good Americans or 32 good Europeans, so if you want games that don't suck, merging the talents pools is the way to do it.
I really, really agree with this.
At first, I was opposed to the visa restrictions because I thought it was nothing more than foreigner affirmative action. Giving 2 WCS tournaments for Korea and a combined one for the rest of the world is more in line with the talent pool in each region.
I like these changes, but man does this suck for ForGG. He was literally the guy all the euro pros would cite for paving the way to a better ladder. A lot of the early "Foreign Koreans" took a risk moving and a few have established lives in new countries. Shame Blizzard didn't give them ample time to get their visas in order.
Opinions on the changes from pros and managers, casters etc...
Also states that MMA will still be on Acer and they are already working on letting him go back to competing and living in Korea again. Is there space in the Axiom house I wonder? Or maybe they will partner with another team for Proleague and he stays with them?
On November 01 2014 11:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: Here it is.
Only thing I don't like is that they are letting the pseudo-invitationals continue and the rich will continue to get richer in that respect. 25% for qualifiers is not enough, particularly when you can then further break that down into regionals. HSC should not be getting WCS points when it's a glorified invitational inviting people TaKeTV likes plus lip-service to qualifiers with only 2 spots for Koreans (and the qualifier ends up being a better tournament than the main event as a result of the talent pool).
Frankly it should be minimum 50% qualifiers if you want any WCS points and I hope they change that before 2015 season starts.
Aside from that it's great. There aren't 32 good Americans or 32 good Europeans, so if you want games that don't suck, merging the talents pools is the way to do it.
I agree. All these tournaments have way too many invitations. Tournament spots should be earned, not gifted
Or at least not give WCS points. I want HSC to stay invite based, but it should just not give WCS points.
I agree with HSC, a HSC with 90% koreans who don't speak english just wouldn't be that entertaining.
On November 01 2014 11:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: Here it is.
Only thing I don't like is that they are letting the pseudo-invitationals continue and the rich will continue to get richer in that respect. 25% for qualifiers is not enough, particularly when you can then further break that down into regionals. HSC should not be getting WCS points when it's a glorified invitational inviting people TaKeTV likes plus lip-service to qualifiers with only 2 spots for Koreans (and the qualifier ends up being a better tournament than the main event as a result of the talent pool).
Frankly it should be minimum 50% qualifiers if you want any WCS points and I hope they change that before 2015 season starts.
Aside from that it's great. There aren't 32 good Americans or 32 good Europeans, so if you want games that don't suck, merging the talents pools is the way to do it.
I agree. All these tournaments have way too many invitations. Tournament spots should be earned, not gifted
Or at least not give WCS points. I want HSC to stay invite based, but it should just not give WCS points.
I agree with HSC, a HSC with 90% koreans who don't speak english just wouldn't be that entertaining.
Sometimes gameplay isn't everything...
Fine by me. Stop giving WCS points to a tournament thats mostly about drinking and poker might be a good idea.
Also states that MMA will still be on Acer and they are already working on letting him go back to competing and living in Korea again. Is there space in the Axiom house I wonder?
MMA has always had a spot in the Axiom house. That hasn't changed.
...Well, firstly the Korean tournaments are nice. Not sure how that's gonna turn out (like, will players be evenly distributed, or will one gain more fame/notoriety than the other, so on and so forth). But at the very least it opens up a lot of opportunities for the Koreans coming back.
I'm not too keen on a unified WCS league. I mean, it's good in and of itself, probably done in opportunity cost with the second Korean league. But damn, that really shrinks down visibility for non-Korean players.
...Actually, it might not be too significant for Europeans, since Europe tends to host a variety of events anyway. And it probably won't hurt SEA/Oceania more than the current system. We'll see what happens with 'Murica, though.
Nice changes. WCS NA was typically boring until Ro16 anyway. They are keeping the prize pool the same for 2015 at 1.6m. I wonder how the pay out will end up looking for the unified Premier League between NA and EU.
Premier League RO32 Group Stage will be played onsite at the ESL Studios. Four groups will be played in the ESL Burbank studio in the US, and four groups will be played in the ESL Cologne studio in Germany.
Does that mean that the Ro32 groups will be separated by region, all EU players in 4 groups, all US players in the 4 other groups? Or are they going to be randomized, and half the Americans fly to Germany, while half the Europeans fly to the US to play? It sounds weird either way.
To sum up: Before, there were two WCS foreigner tournaments and one Korean tournament. Now, there is one WCS foreigner tournament and two Korean tournaments.
I approve. I approve of more Koreans and less foreigners.
On November 01 2014 11:56 Spect8rCraft wrote: Uhh...
...Well, firstly the Korean tournaments are nice. Not sure how that's gonna turn out (like, will players be evenly distributed, or will one gain more fame/notoriety than the other, so on and so forth). But at the very least it opens up a lot of opportunities for the Koreans coming back.
I'm not too keen on a unified WCS league. I mean, it's good in and of itself, probably done in opportunity cost with the second Korean league. But damn, that really shrinks down visibility for non-Korean players.
...Actually, it might not be too significant for Europeans, since Europe tends to host a variety of events anyway. And it probably won't hurt SEA/Oceania more than the current system. We'll see what happens with 'Murica, though.
So maybe things will work out.
I don't know why people had this ridiculous idea that non-Korean players had visibility anyway. Vast majority of Americans lose in the RO32, assuming they even get into it (which was only happening because they artificially choked off the Challenger spots to prevent anymore than 2 extra Koreans getting in per season). RO32 of WCS NA got the lowest views of any WCS region. Europe faired a little better but not by much. Majority of players that made it out of RO32 were Korean and it's all downhill from there for the foreigners.
This is amazing for foreigner visibility, it's the only way that anyone who isn't on Vortix/Scarlett/Snute/Bunny/Majoronagoodday level is going to get any anymore. If I were a foreigner I'd be celebrating right now.
On November 01 2014 11:56 Spect8rCraft wrote: Uhh...
...Well, firstly the Korean tournaments are nice. Not sure how that's gonna turn out (like, will players be evenly distributed, or will one gain more fame/notoriety than the other, so on and so forth). But at the very least it opens up a lot of opportunities for the Koreans coming back.
I'm not too keen on a unified WCS league. I mean, it's good in and of itself, probably done in opportunity cost with the second Korean league. But damn, that really shrinks down visibility for non-Korean players.
...Actually, it might not be too significant for Europeans, since Europe tends to host a variety of events anyway. And it probably won't hurt SEA/Oceania more than the current system. We'll see what happens with 'Murica, though.
So maybe things will work out.
I don't know why people had this ridiculous idea that non-Korean players had visibility anyway. Vast majority of Americans lose in the RO32, assuming they even get into it (which was only happening because they artificially choked off the Challenger spots to prevent anymore than 2 extra Koreans getting in per season). RO32 of WCS NA got the lowest views of any WCS region. Europe faired a little better but not by much. Majority of players that made it out of RO32 were Korean and it's all downhill from there for the foreigners.
This is amazing for foreigner visibility, it's the only way that anyone who isn't on Vortix/Scarlett/Snute/Bunny/Majoronagoodday level is going to get any anymore. If I were a foreigner I'd be celebrating right now.
On November 01 2014 11:56 Spect8rCraft wrote: Uhh...
...Well, firstly the Korean tournaments are nice. Not sure how that's gonna turn out (like, will players be evenly distributed, or will one gain more fame/notoriety than the other, so on and so forth). But at the very least it opens up a lot of opportunities for the Koreans coming back.
I'm not too keen on a unified WCS league. I mean, it's good in and of itself, probably done in opportunity cost with the second Korean league. But damn, that really shrinks down visibility for non-Korean players.
...Actually, it might not be too significant for Europeans, since Europe tends to host a variety of events anyway. And it probably won't hurt SEA/Oceania more than the current system. We'll see what happens with 'Murica, though.
So maybe things will work out.
I don't know why people had this ridiculous idea that non-Korean players had visibility anyway. Vast majority of Americans lose in the RO32, assuming they even get into it (which was only happening because they artificially choked off the Challenger spots to prevent anymore than 2 extra Koreans getting in per season). RO32 of WCS NA got the lowest views of any WCS region. Europe faired a little better but not by much. Majority of players that made it out of RO32 were Korean and it's all downhill from there for the foreigners.
This is amazing for foreigner visibility, it's the only way that anyone who isn't on Vortix/Scarlett/Snute/Bunny/Majoronagoodday level is going to get any anymore. If I were a foreigner I'd be celebrating right now.
huk is so sad it's not hukonagoodday
I agree. It should be HuKonagoodday and MajOrwhenheshowsup.
I don't know if it's bad for foreigners or not, if it's bad I'm sorry for them, but the thing is, I'd rather watch good players than see awful play being rewarded with money. If we destroy SC2 as an eSportS by not encouraging awful foreigner play, then so be it, let's destroy the eSportZz. And it might actually make me watch pure foreigner games now :D
On November 01 2014 11:56 Spect8rCraft wrote: Uhh...
...Well, firstly the Korean tournaments are nice. Not sure how that's gonna turn out (like, will players be evenly distributed, or will one gain more fame/notoriety than the other, so on and so forth). But at the very least it opens up a lot of opportunities for the Koreans coming back.
I'm not too keen on a unified WCS league. I mean, it's good in and of itself, probably done in opportunity cost with the second Korean league. But damn, that really shrinks down visibility for non-Korean players.
...Actually, it might not be too significant for Europeans, since Europe tends to host a variety of events anyway. And it probably won't hurt SEA/Oceania more than the current system. We'll see what happens with 'Murica, though.
So maybe things will work out.
I don't know why people had this ridiculous idea that non-Korean players had visibility anyway. Vast majority of Americans lose in the RO32, assuming they even get into it (which was only happening because they artificially choked off the Challenger spots to prevent anymore than 2 extra Koreans getting in per season). RO32 of WCS NA got the lowest views of any WCS region. Europe faired a little better but not by much. Majority of players that made it out of RO32 were Korean and it's all downhill from there for the foreigners.
This is amazing for foreigner visibility, it's the only way that anyone who isn't on Vortix/Scarlett/Snute/Bunny/Majoronagoodday level is going to get any anymore. If I were a foreigner I'd be celebrating right now.
huk is so sad it's not hukonagoodday
Yeah to be fair HuK should be on the list based on his recent form. He's really stepped it up.
On November 01 2014 12:31 ZenithM wrote: I don't know if it's bad for foreigners or not, if it's bad I'm sorry for them, but the thing is, I'd rather watch good players than see awful play being rewarded with money. If we destroy SC2 as an eSportS by not encouraging awful foreigner play, then so be it, let's destroy the eSportZz. And it might actually make me watch pure foreigner games now :D
The thing is, a lot of people could actually be good if any spots actually paid, lol. Being bad for a lot people is cause, I don't know, they have to work instead of practicing. In a sense, by determining how many spots pay, you're also determining how many people will end up being good and how many will play your game. Blizzard doesn't get it. They never will.
On November 01 2014 11:56 Spect8rCraft wrote: Uhh...
...Well, firstly the Korean tournaments are nice. Not sure how that's gonna turn out (like, will players be evenly distributed, or will one gain more fame/notoriety than the other, so on and so forth). But at the very least it opens up a lot of opportunities for the Koreans coming back.
I'm not too keen on a unified WCS league. I mean, it's good in and of itself, probably done in opportunity cost with the second Korean league. But damn, that really shrinks down visibility for non-Korean players.
...Actually, it might not be too significant for Europeans, since Europe tends to host a variety of events anyway. And it probably won't hurt SEA/Oceania more than the current system. We'll see what happens with 'Murica, though.
So maybe things will work out.
I don't know why people had this ridiculous idea that non-Korean players had visibility anyway. Vast majority of Americans lose in the RO32, assuming they even get into it (which was only happening because they artificially choked off the Challenger spots to prevent anymore than 2 extra Koreans getting in per season). RO32 of WCS NA got the lowest views of any WCS region. Europe faired a little better but not by much. Majority of players that made it out of RO32 were Korean and it's all downhill from there for the foreigners.
This is amazing for foreigner visibility, it's the only way that anyone who isn't on Vortix/Scarlett/Snute/Bunny/Majoronagoodday level is going to get any anymore. If I were a foreigner I'd be celebrating right now.
huk is so sad it's not hukonagoodday
Yeah to be fair HuK should be on the list based on his recent form. He's really stepped it up.
He's already pushing for the title of best Canadian again. It's pretty cool to see.
On November 01 2014 11:56 Spect8rCraft wrote: Uhh...
...Well, firstly the Korean tournaments are nice. Not sure how that's gonna turn out (like, will players be evenly distributed, or will one gain more fame/notoriety than the other, so on and so forth). But at the very least it opens up a lot of opportunities for the Koreans coming back.
I'm not too keen on a unified WCS league. I mean, it's good in and of itself, probably done in opportunity cost with the second Korean league. But damn, that really shrinks down visibility for non-Korean players.
...Actually, it might not be too significant for Europeans, since Europe tends to host a variety of events anyway. And it probably won't hurt SEA/Oceania more than the current system. We'll see what happens with 'Murica, though.
So maybe things will work out.
I don't know why people had this ridiculous idea that non-Korean players had visibility anyway. Vast majority of Americans lose in the RO32, assuming they even get into it (which was only happening because they artificially choked off the Challenger spots to prevent anymore than 2 extra Koreans getting in per season). RO32 of WCS NA got the lowest views of any WCS region. Europe faired a little better but not by much. Majority of players that made it out of RO32 were Korean and it's all downhill from there for the foreigners.
This is amazing for foreigner visibility, it's the only way that anyone who isn't on Vortix/Scarlett/Snute/Bunny/Majoronagoodday level is going to get any anymore. If I were a foreigner I'd be celebrating right now.
huk is so sad it's not hukonagoodday
Yeah to be fair HuK should be on the list based on his recent form. He's really stepped it up.
On November 01 2014 07:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I like this a lot.
Unified league outside of Korea is really exciting to me. Grubby vs Violet, TLO vs HuK, Bunny vs Scarlett bring it on.
Additionally the regional qualifiers into live Ro32 are a huge improvement to the legitimacy of playing cross server for Taiwanese, Latin Americans, Chinese, etc. Now they can just play on their local servers and qualify directly into live Ro32.
Live on-site Ro16 as a legitimate event instead of Ro8 and even the finals played in the same studio in front of the same 20 people?
Same prizepool?!
whilst having some cool NA v EU matchups, i dont really understand the purpose behind such a drastic change to an otherwise mostly stable system
get out of your comfort zone. a stable status quo doesn't necessarily mean it's the right/fair format.
First of all, we don't even have enough foreigners who are in the same playing field as Koreans. And then, when they actually meet, Koreans are steamrolling everyone with clean sweeps.
Welcome back, 2011. Only with less foreigners (which are on the same level as Koreans), and messing things up for those Koreans who went to live to abroad for the tournaments, aka pushing forward the starcraft progaming scene.
On November 01 2014 09:36 geokilla wrote: What the fuck? How are people going to get VISAs then?! Do they get VISAs for Europe or America or Canada?
So reading through all the knowledgeable comments in this tread, it seems I was right. A lot of players will be forced to retire or won't be able to play due to improper visas. Doesn't this basically kill the foreign SC2 scene? It seems that ESL knew about these changes but decided not to say anything about it as well, according to ForGG's girlfriend on Reddit.
I am right to assume, that we are much more likely to see one or two foreigners in the Global Finals next year? Should be a lot easier for Snute or Scarlett to harvest more points in Premier League, right?
I figure that Blizzard is looking for WCS viewership to go up drastically. I am quite sure they would like at least 5x to 10x more the viewers on all WCS events at all times. With many more people playing and being interested in the game. If things stay largely the same, well they will stay the same.
LotV and drastic changes to WCS are in the long term (2-3 years), going to be the last pushes to get dramatically increased viewership, or this shit is just going to go away. Blizzard cant just continue to fund it for another 20 years for no good reason.
And I SINCERELY hope it works. I like SC2 and would love to see it around for a long time.
On November 01 2014 15:55 mishimaBeef wrote: I'll admit that I didn't watch any NA or EU events this year. But with this unified league, I am interested in who is the top foreigner.
Chinese viewers, EU and NA all together? Hopefully these events start returning some really high viewer numbers. I would like that a lot.
Wait what so Korea practically gets 2 WCS's now?? The SpoTV league is the same WCS value as a GSL?
And then the rest of the world has to fight for a single third WCS.... hmmm
I guess it's a good for koreans since they have 2 choices in their own country now, I wonder if they are allowed to participate in both though? That would mean double chances which would be weird.
Man this change hit me with a hammer lol didn't expect it at all. I wonder if this is beneficial for foreigners in the end.... koreans go back to korea, worse practice on ladder, 32 less premier league spots....
On November 01 2014 16:27 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Wait what so Korea practically gets 2 WCS's now?? The SpoTV league is the same WCS value as a GSL?
And then the rest of the world has to fight for a single third WCS.... hmmm
I guess it's a good for koreans since they have 2 choices in their own country now, I wonder if they are allowed to participate in both though? That would mean double chances which would be weird.
Man this change hit me with a hammer lol didn't expect it at all. I wonder if this is beneficial for foreigners in the end.... koreans go back to korea, worse practice on ladder, 32 less premier league spots....
OP says players can play in both.
Graphs show that GSL will be as normal, and SPOTV will be just "code S" equivalent. Qualify into a RO32, and it plays out - no code A or anything. So every season you play a qualifier to get a shot, once you're out, that's it.
On November 01 2014 16:27 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Wait what so Korea practically gets 2 WCS's now?? The SpoTV league is the same WCS value as a GSL?
And then the rest of the world has to fight for a single third WCS.... hmmm
I guess it's a good for koreans since they have 2 choices in their own country now, I wonder if they are allowed to participate in both though? That would mean double chances which would be weird.
Man this change hit me with a hammer lol didn't expect it at all. I wonder if this is beneficial for foreigners in the end.... koreans go back to korea, worse practice on ladder, 32 less premier league spots....
OP says players can play in both.
Graphs show that GSL will be as normal, and SPOTV will be just "code S" equivalent. Qualify into a RO32, and it plays out - no code A or anything. So every season you play a qualifier to get a shot, once you're out, that's it.
Thats strange, so the best koreans get double tournaments? How will this broaden the korean scene then? Like if they had to choose between the 2 then there would be more room for B-teamers or up and comers. Now Zest and friends will take all just like before...
A real venue for WCSworldwithoutkorea RO16 is really cool though!!
Wait what. I don't get it. Wasn't the region lock thing supposed to give more exposure and money to the foreigners? And isn't this doing the exact opposite, considering it reduces by half the number of players that we would have had in WCS Premier EU + NA? I mean players like Neeb, Miniraiser, Starbuck, etc are going to have a really rough time getting into Premier. Also I'm curious about which Koreans are going to be able to compete. Polt and Violet seem 100% sure, maybe hydra and SuNo too (so already half of NA's spots filled)? In EU well ForGG, and who else? I really hope the mYi Koreans will be allowed to stay, it would be such a shame if mYi's entire recruitment and management policy was killed by this.
On November 01 2014 12:31 ZenithM wrote: I don't know if it's bad for foreigners or not, if it's bad I'm sorry for them, but the thing is, I'd rather watch good players than see awful play being rewarded with money. If we destroy SC2 as an eSportS by not encouraging awful foreigner play, then so be it, let's destroy the eSportZz. And it might actually make me watch pure foreigner games now :D
The thing is, a lot of people could actually be good if any spots actually paid, lol. Being bad for a lot people is cause, I don't know, they have to work instead of practicing. In a sense, by determining how many spots pay, you're also determining how many people will end up being good and how many will play your game. Blizzard doesn't get it. They never will.
I don't know. Aspiring pro-gamers are young, either they have to work and then tough luck, or they are students. I can't imagine there aren't some students out there supported by whatever (their parents or scholarships, read) willing to play this game. And when I was a student (well I was a paid student which is even luckier), I had all the time in the world to play 10 hours a day. Not such bad conditions.
Why does he only have a working holiday visa in the first place?
Because getting anything else is very difficult.
He had a woking visa...
Wait ForGG won't be able to compete?
We are still waiting Llewellys to answer this question.
If this new system does not allow Koreans who actually live in foreign countries to compete, there won't be any Koreans on the EU/NA ladder and it's going to be really bad for the foreigners' skill level in the long term... I really hope players like ForGG will get recognition from Blizzard for what they have done and won't suffer too much from this new system...
Woah, I love the detail that each season all players from premier have to fight for their spot with the new players from challenger qualifiers! I'm just not sure about having two live studios at the same time. You're likely to end up with mixed groups so players from America will have to fly to Germany and vice versa.
wow, seriously the best thing ever just happened for me personally in Starcraft. Not interested in EU/NA WCS at all this year, now I will likely end up watching the unified one. And Korea? Well, Korea will just get better with more leagues, more matches, more tournaments and more players. Fucking YAY!
On November 01 2014 17:36 Zax19 wrote: I'm just not sure about having two live studios at the same time. You're likely to end up with mixed groups so players from America will have to fly to Germany and vice versa.
Theoretically Blizzard could be stingy and just send the 'Taiwan guys' (who might in fact be Koreans) to Cologne and be done with it.
On the other hand, most players have to be flown in anyway, since they don't live near LA or Cologne and in the end we are talking about just one day of group play anyway.
I have one big concern with this plan. Will the lack of koreans to practice with be detrimental to EU players that were catching up (at least a bit)?? I'd like to hear some players opinion about it.
I like verything except those "2 players from...." (specifically the low numbers). I like the 14 from EU/M.E./Africa. But I think NA and LA could be clumped together? Same maybe with China / TW / ANZ...
At least that's my knee jerk reaction... let's see how I feel after reading more opinions :D
On November 01 2014 18:26 y0su wrote: I like verything except those "2 players from...." (specifically the low numbers). I like the 14 from EU/M.E./Africa. But I think NA and LA could be clumped together? Same maybe with China / TW / ANZ...
At least that's my knee jerk reaction... let's see how I feel after reading more opinions :D
Ugh I just realized that NA and LA were separate... I really hope that ROOT's Koreans will be able to compete in this or else we'll have 3-4 really weak players coming from NA
On November 01 2014 18:25 Makro wrote: offline already in the ro32, wow
for forgg i thought he had a french working visa due to millenium ?
He did have one, not anymore though.
Overall I like the changes. Korea gets the tournaments needed and since there aren't enough EU/NA players for an entire WCS season, their put together. Close to what I've been hoping for tbh.
I think I really like these changes. We certainly needed a mix up to keep things fresh. I've gotta say I lost interest in repeatedly seeing almost 6-8 Koreans in round of 8 WCS AM and EU. As someone previously said, it's matches like Scarlett vs bunny and huk vs TLO that really draw in the viewers (and my personal interest).
One question though, these two spots for Hong Kong and SEA etc and 4 spots for China. Are these going to be ruled by Koreans that make the move to these regions? I hope not!
Also I think Korea deserves two big leagues as that's where the talent lies and we're kinda chucking them out of AM and EU.
Question: I'm probably being silly but how does the split between the 4 groups in Europe and 4 groups in America work? I hope it's an random split with some Europeans going to America and some Americans going Europe. Otherwise 4 groups will just be mini WCS EU and 4 groups will be mini WCS AM
On November 01 2014 18:49 DrBeansy wrote: Question: I'm probably being silly but how does the split between the 4 groups in Europe and 4 groups in America work? I hope it's an random split with some Europeans going to America and some Americans going Europe. Otherwise 4 groups will just be mini WCS EU and 4 groups will be mini WCS AM
On November 01 2014 11:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: Here it is.
Only thing I don't like is that they are letting the pseudo-invitationals continue and the rich will continue to get richer in that respect. 25% for qualifiers is not enough, particularly when you can then further break that down into regionals. HSC should not be getting WCS points when it's a glorified invitational inviting people TaKeTV likes plus lip-service to qualifiers with only 2 spots for Koreans (and the qualifier ends up being a better tournament than the main event as a result of the talent pool).
Frankly it should be minimum 50% qualifiers if you want any WCS points and I hope they change that before 2015 season starts.
Aside from that it's great. There aren't 32 good Americans or 32 good Europeans, so if you want games that don't suck, merging the talents pools is the way to do it.
But are there more than 28 good european players and more than 14 good americans or?
First the good news yesterday, and now the bad today.
Koreans outside Korea are screwed. It was fun while it lasted, I guess.
Not sure how it will end up with a unified league between AM and EU. Could be good, could be bad, but Korean tournaments should satisfy all my sc2 needs from next year on, so.
On November 01 2014 18:45 Makro wrote: that suck for forgg, i just checked and indeed it's really hard to get a working visa
It is, but if he had one he met the requirements. Why did he switch/was forced to switch to a working holidays visa?
i would like to know too
He didn't want to take French language lessons
Well this is obviously not the reason. Until 2 weeks ago he had no idea that his working-holiday visa would not be enough to stay in WCS EU; as blizzard did not tell the player which visa would be required.
On November 01 2014 11:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: Here it is.
Only thing I don't like is that they are letting the pseudo-invitationals continue and the rich will continue to get richer in that respect. 25% for qualifiers is not enough, particularly when you can then further break that down into regionals. HSC should not be getting WCS points when it's a glorified invitational inviting people TaKeTV likes plus lip-service to qualifiers with only 2 spots for Koreans (and the qualifier ends up being a better tournament than the main event as a result of the talent pool).
Frankly it should be minimum 50% qualifiers if you want any WCS points and I hope they change that before 2015 season starts.
Aside from that it's great. There aren't 32 good Americans or 32 good Europeans, so if you want games that don't suck, merging the talents pools is the way to do it.
I agree. All these tournaments have way too many invitations. Tournament spots should be earned, not gifted
Or at least not give WCS points. I want HSC to stay invite based, but it should just not give WCS points.
I agree with HSC, a HSC with 90% koreans who don't speak english just wouldn't be that entertaining.
Sometimes gameplay isn't everything...
Fine by me. Stop giving WCS points to a tournament thats mostly about drinking and poker might be a good idea.
Also states that MMA will still be on Acer and they are already working on letting him go back to competing and living in Korea again. Is there space in the Axiom house I wonder?
MMA has always had a spot in the Axiom house. That hasn't changed.
On November 01 2014 08:29 Boucot wrote: I don't know what to think about that. Oh, ForGG, why didn't you take those bloody french lessons...
He still can't speak French?
Until july 2014, ForGG had a working visa (so the right visa). To renew it, he had to take french lessons but given that he lives with his girlfriend in Germany for around a year now it wasn't possible for him and chose to grab the same visas than HyuN/MC/other GEM guys had.
Pretty sure that are plenty of places to learn French in Germany.
On November 01 2014 11:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: Here it is.
Only thing I don't like is that they are letting the pseudo-invitationals continue and the rich will continue to get richer in that respect. 25% for qualifiers is not enough, particularly when you can then further break that down into regionals. HSC should not be getting WCS points when it's a glorified invitational inviting people TaKeTV likes plus lip-service to qualifiers with only 2 spots for Koreans (and the qualifier ends up being a better tournament than the main event as a result of the talent pool).
Frankly it should be minimum 50% qualifiers if you want any WCS points and I hope they change that before 2015 season starts.
Aside from that it's great. There aren't 32 good Americans or 32 good Europeans, so if you want games that don't suck, merging the talents pools is the way to do it.
I agree. All these tournaments have way too many invitations. Tournament spots should be earned, not gifted
Or at least not give WCS points. I want HSC to stay invite based, but it should just not give WCS points.
I agree with HSC, a HSC with 90% koreans who don't speak english just wouldn't be that entertaining.
Sometimes gameplay isn't everything...
Fine by me. Stop giving WCS points to a tournament thats mostly about drinking and poker might be a good idea.
Also states that MMA will still be on Acer and they are already working on letting him go back to competing and living in Korea again. Is there space in the Axiom house I wonder?
MMA has always had a spot in the Axiom house. That hasn't changed.
I wish HSC would be mostly about drinking and poker, but they don't even have a dedicated stream for that...
On November 01 2014 08:29 ivancype wrote: "The 16 Players advancing from the RO32 will be compete onsite at a live venue location for the Season Finals event."
I really hope they make this a big live event, like the 2013 season finals in Canada.
But about the overall changes, I have a feeling that the situation for Koreans improved and for the foreigners and koreigners worsened...
Also, is Mexico part of the Latin America or NA qualifiers?
Latin America
Latin America is stupid region as North America and Latin America share some countries.
Personally I'm looking forward to the scene next year. Two Korean leagues, unified foreign scene - great to watch.
On November 01 2014 08:29 Boucot wrote: I don't know what to think about that. Oh, ForGG, why didn't you take those bloody french lessons...
He still can't speak French?
Until july 2014, ForGG had a working visa (so the right visa). To renew it, he had to take french lessons but given that he lives with his girlfriend in Germany for around a year now it wasn't possible for him and chose to grab the same visas than HyuN/MC/other GEM guys had.
Pretty sure that are plenty of places to learn French in Germany.
Unfortunatly forgg got a working-holiday visa 2 months ago. I don't know if you can have both visas at the same time? And i don't know if you can learn french in less than 2 months when all he probably learned while staying at the millenium gaming house was cursing
On November 01 2014 19:35 JustPassingBy wrote: I wish HSC would be mostly about drinking and poker, but they don't even have a dedicated stream for that...
On November 01 2014 11:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: Here it is.
Only thing I don't like is that they are letting the pseudo-invitationals continue and the rich will continue to get richer in that respect. 25% for qualifiers is not enough, particularly when you can then further break that down into regionals. HSC should not be getting WCS points when it's a glorified invitational inviting people TaKeTV likes plus lip-service to qualifiers with only 2 spots for Koreans (and the qualifier ends up being a better tournament than the main event as a result of the talent pool).
Frankly it should be minimum 50% qualifiers if you want any WCS points and I hope they change that before 2015 season starts.
I don't know why so many people try to fix a system broken by design with a system that is slightly less broken by design. Just remove WCS points from non-WCS events.
Viewers don't care about them. Yes, some love to track stats and results or are a little bit more excited about the last events of the year that give them out. But it takes about the same amount of excitement out of the official WCS tournaments.
Tournaments/organizers are probably more interested in Blizzard's promotion when they become a WCS-sanctioned event. There is no reason why not to continue promoting events without giving WCS points out.
Only thing you could say is that it adds incentive to send players to otherwise lesser events. But would the travel budget be really smaller for teams without WCS points?
Ah yeah that makes sense. Too bad for him though, it's a shame that this was not announced way earlier
Edit : @SinCitta : How is giving WCS points to non-WCS events that are either 100% qualifiers (IEM) or open to anyone (DH) a broken system? I mean sure it's not perfect, but at least it makes sense to give points as long as anyone who has the skill can enter the tournament and win it. I love HSC and I watch the hell out of it, but giving WCS points to a tournament with 8 theorical qualified players (remember that last HSC two qualified players were replaced by two invites) on 32 players is not right.
I´m sorry guys, but who came up with the fact that you need to know the language to get working-visa? This is totally wrong! I can only speak for germany, but the best example: my flatmate is from south korea, doesnt speak a work, got his working visa even before arriving here! i know plenty of people coming outside from EU, who got working visa without problems, without knowing german.
I also checked the embassy and foreign office: not a single note that you need to speak german. especially for koreans it is quite easy to come to europe, as they are some kind of partners.
the only thing you need: working contract. as we talking about professional players, they probably already have working contract with their sponsors/teams/whatever, if not, do it.
On November 01 2014 20:29 vitka wrote: I´m sorry guys, but who came up with the fact that you need to know the language to get working-visa? This is totally wrong! I can only speak for germany, but the best example: my flatmate is from south korea, doesnt speak a work, got his working visa even before arriving here! i know plenty of people coming outside from EU, who got working visa without problems, without knowing german.
I also checked the embassy and foreign office: not a single note that you need to speak german. especially for koreans it is quite easy to come to europe, as they are some kind of partners.
the only thing you need: working contract. as we talking about professional players, they probably already have working contract with their sponsors/teams/whatever, if not, do it.
Players are most of the time not employees of their teams, but contractors. I think that complicates things.
On November 01 2014 20:29 vitka wrote: I´m sorry guys, but who came up with the fact that you need to know the language to get working-visa? This is totally wrong! I can only speak for germany, but the best example: my flatmate is from south korea, doesnt speak a work, got his working visa even before arriving here! i know plenty of people coming outside from EU, who got working visa without problems, without knowing german.
I also checked the embassy and foreign office: not a single note that you need to speak german. especially for koreans it is quite easy to come to europe, as they are some kind of partners.
the only thing you need: working contract. as we talking about professional players, they probably already have working contract with their sponsors/teams/whatever, if not, do it.
Of course you don't need to speak the language to get a working visa. People need to stop talking out of their ass.
However you are talking out of your ass too. You don't just need a working contract for a working visa you need a working contract with extreme requirements. For example in the Netherlands this is €38465 for people under 30 and €52462 for over 30. The reason why they can't get legitimate working visas is because those visas are only given out with extreme salary requirements and sports visas are probably out of reach for SC2. Additionally there are heavy financial health requirements to companies who want to bring in employees.
Imagine if you could get a working visa for a $1500 contract can you imagine the insane amount of immigrants Europe would have to deal with?
On November 01 2014 20:29 vitka wrote: I´m sorry guys, but who came up with the fact that you need to know the language to get working-visa? This is totally wrong! I can only speak for germany, but the best example: my flatmate is from south korea, doesnt speak a work, got his working visa even before arriving here! i know plenty of people coming outside from EU, who got working visa without problems, without knowing german.
I also checked the embassy and foreign office: not a single note that you need to speak german. especially for koreans it is quite easy to come to europe, as they are some kind of partners.
the only thing you need: working contract. as we talking about professional players, they probably already have working contract with their sponsors/teams/whatever, if not, do it.
Players are most of the time not employees of their teams, but contractors. I think that complicates things.
This is true as well although it doesn't really matter since the amounts are nowhere near enough anyway.
On November 01 2014 20:29 vitka wrote: I´m sorry guys, but who came up with the fact that you need to know the language to get working-visa? This is totally wrong! I can only speak for germany, but the best example: my flatmate is from south korea, doesnt speak a work, got his working visa even before arriving here! i know plenty of people coming outside from EU, who got working visa without problems, without knowing german.
I also checked the embassy and foreign office: not a single note that you need to speak german. especially for koreans it is quite easy to come to europe, as they are some kind of partners.
the only thing you need: working contract. as we talking about professional players, they probably already have working contract with their sponsors/teams/whatever, if not, do it.
Players are most of the time not employees of their teams, but contractors. I think that complicates things.
Yes, definitely, but then this problem should be named. Everyone (reddit and tl) is talking about language skills, which is totally wrong.
And if this (employees/contractors status) is the only problem, then seriously, what are we talking about? give this man a cookie, eehm, contract.
Can I get something straight? Is Korea having 3 GSLs, 3 SPOTV leagues as well as 3 KeSPA cups? Because some people seem to think that the KeSPA cup is the new SPOTV league so I'm not sure. Can someone update me on this.
Also, since GSL ro8-finals will be getting a venue on a weekend. Does that mean that players won't be getting a week to prepare for each opponent?
On November 01 2014 19:35 JustPassingBy wrote: I wish HSC would be mostly about drinking and poker, but they don't even have a dedicated stream for that...
Totally agree, it could be very entertaining! :D
Not allowed anymore to show it on stream. Blizzard updated their policy/rules for organizer shortly after HSC IV.
On November 01 2014 20:29 vitka wrote: I´m sorry guys, but who came up with the fact that you need to know the language to get working-visa? This is totally wrong! I can only speak for germany, but the best example: my flatmate is from south korea, doesnt speak a work, got his working visa even before arriving here! i know plenty of people coming outside from EU, who got working visa without problems, without knowing german.
I also checked the embassy and foreign office: not a single note that you need to speak german. especially for koreans it is quite easy to come to europe, as they are some kind of partners.
the only thing you need: working contract. as we talking about professional players, they probably already have working contract with their sponsors/teams/whatever, if not, do it.
Of course you don't need to speak the language to get a working visa. People need to stop talking out of their ass.
However you are talking out of your ass too. You don't just need a working contract for a working visa you need a working contract with extreme requirements. For example in the Netherlands this is €38465 for people under 30 and €52462 for over 30. The reason why they can't get legitimate working visas is because those visas are only given out with extreme salary requirements and sports visas are probably out of reach for SC2.
Imagine if you could get a working visa for a $1500 contract can you imagine the insane amount of immigrants Europe would have to deal with?
My korean flatmate earned 1500€/month, startup architect company in Berlin. Other friends got working visa with their jobs in a cafe...
On November 01 2014 20:29 vitka wrote: I´m sorry guys, but who came up with the fact that you need to know the language to get working-visa? This is totally wrong! I can only speak for germany, but the best example: my flatmate is from south korea, doesnt speak a work, got his working visa even before arriving here! i know plenty of people coming outside from EU, who got working visa without problems, without knowing german.
I also checked the embassy and foreign office: not a single note that you need to speak german. especially for koreans it is quite easy to come to europe, as they are some kind of partners.
the only thing you need: working contract. as we talking about professional players, they probably already have working contract with their sponsors/teams/whatever, if not, do it.
Of course you don't need to speak the language to get a working visa. People need to stop talking out of their ass.
However you are talking out of your ass too. You don't just need a working contract for a working visa you need a working contract with extreme requirements. For example in the Netherlands this is €38465 for people under 30 and €52462 for over 30. The reason why they can't get legitimate working visas is because those visas are only given out with extreme salary requirements and sports visas are probably out of reach for SC2.
Imagine if you could get a working visa for a $1500 contract can you imagine the insane amount of immigrants Europe would have to deal with?
My korean flatmate earned 1500€/month, startup architect company in Berlin. Other friends got working visa with their jobs in a cafe...
He should be very afraid. In all seriousness I obviously can't speak for your roommate but if I were to guess there are details to his situations that you are unaware of.
On November 01 2014 20:39 ANLProbe wrote: Can I get something straight? Is Korea having 3 GSLs, 3 SPOTV leagues as well as 3 KeSPA cups? Because some people seem to think that the KeSPA cup is the new SPOTV league so I'm not sure. Can someone update me on this.
Also, since GSL ro8-finals will be getting a venue on a weekend. Does that mean that players won't be getting a week to prepare for each opponent?
Looks like TB is still salty when it comes to TaKe's events. They give out a big enough prize pool, meet the other requirements AND a lot of people watch them, ofc they should also give WCS points then.
On November 01 2014 20:39 ANLProbe wrote: Can I get something straight? Is Korea having 3 GSLs, 3 SPOTV leagues as well as 3 KeSPA cups? Because some people seem to think that the KeSPA cup is the new SPOTV league so I'm not sure. Can someone update me on this.
Also, since GSL ro8-finals will be getting a venue on a weekend. Does that mean that players won't be getting a week to prepare for each opponent?
On November 01 2014 20:49 Gr33d wrote: Looks like TB is still salty when it comes to TaKe's events. They give out a big enough prize pool, meet the other requirements AND a lot of people watch them, ofc they should also give WCS points then.
It has nothing to do with saltiness, he is absolutely right - a tournament that is heavily based on invites bascially gives out WCS points for free. Points should be earned through skill (-> qualifiers) and not based on popularity.
Qualifiers mean you have to pay more trips, or you deal with people who qualify not showing up. If you do 50% qualifiers tournaments will basically go broke on paying trips (for names that are less interesting), or you will see constant dropouts. Neither is something the scene will handle very well. It could seriously force tournaments out of SC2. You have to make the best out of what you have and I think that SC2 tournaments are doing just that. Idealistically I agree that more qualifiers would be nice. Realistically I don't.
On November 01 2014 20:29 vitka wrote: I´m sorry guys, but who came up with the fact that you need to know the language to get working-visa? This is totally wrong! I can only speak for germany, but the best example: my flatmate is from south korea, doesnt speak a work, got his working visa even before arriving here! i know plenty of people coming outside from EU, who got working visa without problems, without knowing german.
I also checked the embassy and foreign office: not a single note that you need to speak german. especially for koreans it is quite easy to come to europe, as they are some kind of partners.
the only thing you need: working contract. as we talking about professional players, they probably already have working contract with their sponsors/teams/whatever, if not, do it.
Of course you don't need to speak the language to get a working visa. People need to stop talking out of their ass.
However you are talking out of your ass too. You don't just need a working contract for a working visa you need a working contract with extreme requirements. For example in the Netherlands this is €38465 for people under 30 and €52462 for over 30. The reason why they can't get legitimate working visas is because those visas are only given out with extreme salary requirements and sports visas are probably out of reach for SC2.
Imagine if you could get a working visa for a $1500 contract can you imagine the insane amount of immigrants Europe would have to deal with?
My korean flatmate earned 1500€/month, startup architect company in Berlin. Other friends got working visa with their jobs in a cafe...
He should be very afraid. In all seriousness I obviously can't speak for your roommate but if I were to guess there are details to his situations that you are unaware of.
ah, he hasnt to be afraid. paying 300€ for room you have a lot of money left to enjoy berlin. as i said, i know some other guys who have similar conditions. i just brought him up because he is south korean, i could bring up turkish or australian people as well. i also dont know if there are differences between the countries inside europe. i just guess, that if you can show a contract and proof that you can live with that money, it shouldnt be a problem to get working visa. thing could(!) be that they are all graduated.
On November 01 2014 20:49 Gr33d wrote: Looks like TB is still salty when it comes to TaKe's events. They give out a big enough prize pool, meet the other requirements AND a lot of people watch them, ofc they should also give WCS points then.
It has nothing to do with saltiness, he is absolutely right - a tournament that is heavily based on invites bascially gives out WCS points for free. Points should be earned through skill (-> qualifiers) and not based on popularity.
HSC X doesnt have wcs points, thats why mass invites. And by that logic, IEM and some more have to change aswell.
On November 01 2014 20:49 Gr33d wrote: Looks like TB is still salty when it comes to TaKe's events. They give out a big enough prize pool, meet the other requirements AND a lot of people watch them, ofc they should also give WCS points then.
It has nothing to do with saltiness, he is absolutely right - a tournament that is heavily based on invites bascially gives out WCS points for free. Points should be earned through skill (-> qualifiers) and not based on popularity.
HSC X doesnt have wcs points, thats why mass invites. And by that logic, IEM and some more have to change aswell.
Well, HSC X is in off-season, but others gave out points as far as I remember, and they had the same system. And yes, I agree with you: The invites in IEM and other stuff is not really "fair" as well in regards to WCS points. But of course I also see why invites are needed - Nazgul has a good point economically -, also invites bring a lot of viewers because of popular players' fanbases. If we talk about the overall fairness of an ideal system though, then the more invites the better. That an ideal system will always just stay that - an ideal - is of course true.^^
Well looks like I'm just watching Korea in 2015. Watching NA and EU battle in out in mediocre fashion only for Snute/VortiX/Scarlett/MajOr to face Polt/viOlet in the final.
Just when EU was developing nicely thanks to the Koreans.
I really worry for State though, he wanted to go for WCS this season while staying in Korea. Without a team he isn't going to be able to fund flights from KR - NA
I like this. I don't think there were enough great players in AM/EU to make two exciting leagues. Plus I really hope this is an incentive for the foreigners who actually wish to compete with Koreans to make stays in Korea sometimes in the year and play in the Korean leagues. I endorse this decision completely.
Ah yeah that makes sense. Too bad for him though, it's a shame that this was not announced way earlier
Edit : @SinCitta : How is giving WCS points to non-WCS events that are either 100% qualifiers (IEM) or open to anyone (DH) a broken system? I mean sure it's not perfect, but at least it makes sense to give points as long as anyone who has the skill can enter the tournament and win it. I love HSC and I watch the hell out of it, but giving WCS points to a tournament with 8 theorical qualified players (remember that last HSC two qualified players were replaced by two invites) on 32 players is not right.
We don't know what the design goals of the point system is. Is it designed to get the best players or do they want regional representation? Only when the design goals are clear, we can truly or objectively criticize the system.
It's biased towards players with access to a bigger travel budget
IEM is not 100% qualifiers. There are some hand picked players "based on recents performances". The season before they chose those players from the WCS points ladder. It is not clearly transparent how that process works and it's a "rich get richer" system.
Unpredictability. Events are announced as the season is running and quite often at the end of the season. Players cannot know how much points they need and which events they need to attend.
Distribution of points within an event do not look like they are backed by an appropriate mathematical formula. The numbers just "look good". That kind of works with prize money because that little top-heavyness might make the victory a little bit sweeter, but it runs against some fairness principles that a point system might try to accomplish.
Geographical distribution of events obviously gives some players better chances than others.
Total WCS points pool for an event is not a very good estimator of the total participating players' skill.
Most of the above problems can be avoided under the managable system of the WCS. Some biases still persist, especially among regions, but at least they would be open (and thus subject to criticize and adjust). These problems cannot be realistically solved when giving points to WCS-sanctioned events.
If you're going to region lock it, this is how it needs to be done.
Korea vs the Rest of the World. Keeping WCS NA as it is in its current state without the Koreans playing in it just seems like a complete waste of prize money.
I'm now actually excited to watch both regions, the addition of more games in Korea makes me very happy.
Say, if EU/AM teams would actually employ KR players for real (even time limited contracts), would they still not get a visa? Compare with soccer, ice hockey or any other meat sport?
On November 01 2014 10:25 Boucot wrote: Another scary thought : HOW WILL WE CALL WCS AM/EU ? WCS EUROPERICA ?
WCS Internationals, WCS Worlds, WCS Foreign land, maybe just WCS
WCS Europe
WCS Europe and Polt
On November 01 2014 20:39 ANLProbe wrote: Can I get something straight? Is Korea having 3 GSLs, 3 SPOTV leagues as well as 3 KeSPA cups? Because some people seem to think that the KeSPA cup is the new SPOTV league so I'm not sure. Can someone update me on this.
Also, since GSL ro8-finals will be getting a venue on a weekend. Does that mean that players won't be getting a week to prepare for each opponent?
Also ANLProbe, where did you read that GSL Ro8 - Finals will be getting a venue on a weekend. That would really sucks, they need to give players some time to prepare for those important matches..
I like it tbh. For WCS NA and EU to get more foreigners, you'd simply have to merge the tournements. The foreign scene doesn't really have enough high level players to make two 32 man player tournements interesting. With the idea of making the tournements completely region locked, they'd put the level of players far below any random tournement. This way it's at least hard to earn those WCS points, and on par with the GSL tournements.
this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain.
Blizzard is losing money and will always lose money with WCS. Even Riot lose money and won't break even any time soon with their lcs thing
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain.
Blizzard is losing money and will always lose money with WCS. Even Riot lose a money and won't break even any time soon with their lcs thing
true, James Naismith doesn't have the skills to create a basketball league like the NBA. Blizzard doesn't have the skills to turn their game into a money making year long live event tournament series.
it'd be really cool if Blizzard were able to hand WCS over to a different company that knew how make money off of live events.. in the way Brood War events in South Korea made money.
The prize pool is identical to 2014, that is 1.6 million us dollars.
I think the changes are great. 90% of the good players are Koreans so it makes sense to have more leagues in Korea. Much more than having lots of Koreans to play in in America.
I really think GSL and the new Korean league should have VODs free of charge though. Having a paywall does not make sense for E-sports, you should aim to get as many viewers as possible.
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
WCS has been run at a loss since day 1, why do you think it would change now?
On November 01 2014 15:50 CursOr wrote: I am going to be quite blunt and speculative.
I figure that Blizzard is looking for WCS viewership to go up drastically. I am quite sure they would like at least 5x to 10x more the viewers on all WCS events at all times. With many more people playing and being interested in the game. If things stay largely the same, well they will stay the same.
LotV and drastic changes to WCS are in the long term (2-3 years), going to be the last pushes to get dramatically increased viewership, or this shit is just going to go away. Blizzard cant just continue to fund it for another 20 years for no good reason.
And I SINCERELY hope it works. I like SC2 and would love to see it around for a long time.
Eh no, your 5-10x prediction is luldacris and I'm sure Blizzard aren't expecting that. Also, how exactly are Blizzard funding the scene? They aren't Riot. Sure they pitch in here and there but the sc2 scene have been largely independent of Blizzards support.
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
Why do you think a company like Blizzard would back out of their announcement and do something like reducing the prize pool? Looks like your typical thinking.
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
WCS has been run at a loss since day 1, why do you think it would change now?
Sorry to burst your negative bubble but if the CEO of Blizzard feels passionate about it and wants to spend it, it's not just "putting money down the drain". Not to forget the pretty huge benefits in PR for Blizzard and the gaming franchise that is Starcraft.
Without the esports aspect, Twitch won't give a shit. People won't give a shit. Sponsors won't give a shit. Basically nobody would give a shit ~ 6 months after release, probably even sooner. Look at the immense campaign and effort EA put in place for Titanfall before and after release. Now? Yeah, you tell me.
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
WCS has been run at a loss since day 1, why do you think it would change now?
Blizzard didn't make any money in its first 5 years either. But, for them to really start making cool games on a large scale they had to start making money. Same applies to WCS.
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
WCS has been run at a loss since day 1, why do you think it would change now?
Blizzard didn't make any money in its first 5 years either. But, for them to really start making cool games on a large scale they had to start making money. Same applies to WCS.
You probably don't know that SC2 is Mike Morhaime's personal boy and he won't stop supporting it, no matter it makes money or not.
So, region locking has actually arrived. Since there's not enough awesome-level players to have full region locking with only Europeans (just like there isn't for only Americans or for only SEA inhabitants) they're making a full on international tournament out of it. This doubles as a constant "best of the rest" tournament, which is nice. It'll also make the top 2 foreigners probably have a chance to go to BlizzCon and prove that foreigners can compete with the best Koreans. I was personally not in favor of region locking, and remain skeptical, but this seems like a very solid way to do it.
My main concern is that the Korea->Foreign skill communication that was ocurring with foreign-based koreans acting as the connection might stop and foreign skill might grow much slower. Well see though, now that foreigners are slightly more incentivized (because of the higher amount of tournaments and prize money) to go to Korea to learn (as Jinro, HuK, Idra, Nani, Scarlett used to do and as State does now). Those players became the "importers" of skill from Korea to international lands before, it might happen again.
Secondly, I'm slightly concerned that there's going to be less money for foreigners overall since I expect it will have about 1/3 of total prizepool now as compared to 2/3 of total prizepool before. To clarify, I'm assuming all three tournaments have similar prize pools like they more or less had in the 2013-2014 WCS era. That said, it will be the full 1/3 instead of being (2/3rds - whatever Koreans based in Korea but competing in EU/AM can get). Maybe it evens out. And yeah, I'm counting Koreans living in foreign lands as foreigners. As sould everyone.
This really, really sucks for ForGG. Hope that we europeans can keep him.
As a final consideration, the following post makes a compelling case for watching international WCS. Clever. It will be hard to find a timezone that works for all regions tho. The finals will probably end up being at late night EU/evening AM, which is fine for both, but screws SEA, China, etc. Maybe those people are supposed to watch GSL even tho their players play in international WCS? Then again maybe we get WCS reruns, which would be pretty awesome for everyone.
On November 01 2014 11:02 Musicus wrote: Now if I'm egoistic for a second and think about it from a viewer perspective. This surely will be an entertaining tournament to watch if it looks anything like this:
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
WCS has been run at a loss since day 1, why do you think it would change now?
Sorry to burst your negative bubble but if the CEO of Blizzard feels passionate about it and wants to spend it, it's not just "putting money down the drain". Not to forget the pretty huge benefits in PR for Blizzard and the gaming franchise that is Starcraft.
Without the esports aspect, Twitch won't give a shit. People won't give a shit. Sponsors won't give a shit. Basically nobody would give a shit ~ 6 months after release, probably even sooner. Look at the immense campaign and effort EA put in place for Titanfall before and after release. Now? Yeah, you tell me.
"at a loss" doesn't mean "throwing money down the drain"
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
WCS has been run at a loss since day 1, why do you think it would change now?
Blizzard didn't make any money in its first 5 years either. But, for them to really start making cool games on a large scale they had to start making money. Same applies to WCS.
Blizzard's primary goal isn't to make goal off WCS. Kim Phan has said as much on Twitter. If they could break even that's nice and it might be a goal to strive towards, but they sunk money into WCS events for three years, they won't downscale it now.
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
WCS has been run at a loss since day 1, why do you think it would change now?
Sorry to burst your negative bubble but if the CEO of Blizzard feels passionate about it and wants to spend it, it's not just "putting money down the drain". Not to forget the pretty huge benefits in PR for Blizzard and the gaming franchise that is Starcraft.
Without the esports aspect, Twitch won't give a shit. People won't give a shit. Sponsors won't give a shit. Basically nobody would give a shit ~ 6 months after release, probably even sooner. Look at the immense campaign and effort EA put in place for Titanfall before and after release. Now? Yeah, you tell me.
There's no negative bubble here, what are you talking about? Are you quoting the right person?
Pretty excited about this. Always loved how 2012 GSL had all the best players and didnt like how a bunch of them left for different regions (MMA, TaeJa, Bomber, Mvp especially).
More tournaments in Korea with more Koreans is the best thing i couldve hoped for and unified Premier League seems really nice to me as well. Lets see how it goes!
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
WCS has been run at a loss since day 1, why do you think it would change now?
Blizzard didn't make any money in its first 5 years either. But, for them to really start making cool games on a large scale they had to start making money. Same applies to WCS.
You probably don't know that SC2 is Mike Morhaime's personal boy and he won't stop supporting it, no matter it makes money or not.
If they make money off the events themselves it becomes a lot easier to pay the eSports stars a full time wage commensurate with the effort they put into the game. as long as it keeps losing money there is only so much Blizzard can justify to pour into it due to their corporate overlords ATVI.
On November 01 2014 22:35 digmouse wrote: You probably don't know that SC2 is Mike Morhaime's personal boy
you're incorrect. i know how he had to go to his grandma for money because his parents wanted nothing to do with video games. i read Morhaime's forward in the compendium of 3 works of SC1 fiction. i recall Morhaime stating that he always looks forward to the Starcraft competition at Blizzcon in the 20 year retrospective. read a few of my SC related posts and you'll see i follow Morhaime very closely.
For SC2 eSports to take off it needs its watershed event like Wrestlemania3 in 1987 or UFC30 in 2001. It will require a genius promoter to pull that off.
Disregarding these pie in the sky dreams though, 2015 should be a fun year for SC2 esports for viewers. Over all aggregate prize money will go down somewhat, making it even tougher on the players.
I like the merging of the WCS EU and NA (more top tier foreigners competing against one another) and "forcing" most of the Koreans back to the expanded Korean scene. I believe it'll be healthier for the EU/NA scenes as it'll allow mid tier players more opportunities to earn their living playing and actually be pro-gamers. That way it's also more encouraging for young and upcoming players to enter the scene without running into a wall of Koreans taking up all the earner spots. You'll never have local talent if you don't provide an environment in which talent can grow.
That being said I feel that Blizzard should make an exception for players like ForGG who have been living and working in Europe for years and have built a life there.
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
WCS has been run at a loss since day 1, why do you think it would change now?
Blizzard didn't make any money in its first 5 years either. But, for them to really start making cool games on a large scale they had to start making money. Same applies to WCS.
You probably don't know that SC2 is Mike Morhaime's personal boy and he won't stop supporting it, no matter it makes money or not.
If they make money off the events themselves it becomes a lot easier to pay the eSports stars a full time wage commensurate with the effort they put into the game. as long as it keeps losing money there is only so much Blizzard can justify to pour into it due to their corporate overlords ATVI.
On November 01 2014 22:35 digmouse wrote: You probably don't know that SC2 is Mike Morhaime's personal boy
you're incorrect. i know how he had to go to his grandma for money because his parents wanted nothing to do with video games. i read Morhaime's forward in the compendium of 3 works of SC1 fiction. i recall Morhaime stating that he always looks forward to the Starcraft competition at Blizzcon in the 20 year retrospective. read a few of my SC related posts and you'll see i follow Morhaime very closely.
For SC2 eSports to take off it needs its watershed event like Wrestlemania3 in 1987 or UFC30 in 2001. It will require a genius promoter to pull that off.
Disregarding these pie in the sky dreams though, 2015 should be a fun year for SC2 esports.
You have been negative in every thread about SC2's esports structure/Blizzard's strategy as early as 2012 if my memory was correct and you have been wrong ever since, you will be wrong again in 2015.
With WoW and HS making around 100M$ every month, Blizzard can afford dumping money into WCS, and they have proved that they are willing to do so. It might (and probably never will) "take off" to TI/Worlds level. because let's be fucking honest, there are like 1 million people tops that are willing to play RTS games competitively, but the watching audience is always there and Blizzard is willing to spend money to maintain that audience and a great public image. On top of a LotV info blowout in Blizzcon and a potential beta next year and release in late 2015/early 2016, SC2 will, in fact, going into an upward curve on the public interest aspect because the fresh air that LotV brings.
On November 01 2014 23:09 Errormx wrote: Maybe we can do something about ForGG some petition or something. Hope blizzard is reading this.
No, the only way for forgg to keep playing in EU is getting a proper visa
Holiday working Visas (as the ones of germany) are visas that still allows you compete in WCS. The rule says that the visa must allow staying (not having permantley residence), working anda collecting prices in the country (thats exactly what a holiday working does). Btw the web ennounces some examples and holiday working visas are there
On November 01 2014 23:09 Errormx wrote: Maybe we can do something about ForGG some petition or something. Hope blizzard is reading this.
No, the only way for forgg to keep playing in EU is getting a proper visa
I would like him to play too, but a petition wouldn't do anything because Blizzard can't afford to make exceptions to the rules (that would basically be admitting that their rules, and their whole system, are bad, which obviously won't happen). I still don't know how Blizzard made such a move without announcing it around the end of PL instead of now
On November 01 2014 20:39 ANLProbe wrote: Can I get something straight? Is Korea having 3 GSLs, 3 SPOTV leagues as well as 3 KeSPA cups? Because some people seem to think that the KeSPA cup is the new SPOTV league so I'm not sure. Can someone update me on this.
Also, since GSL ro8-finals will be getting a venue on a weekend. Does that mean that players won't be getting a week to prepare for each opponent?
KeSPA Cups will be separate from SpoTV leagues.
I really doubt GSL would be forced to change their 4-year old system that works really well for their context of operations. I think it was lumped together in one box in the infogram to simplify, because it's those players that directly qualify for next season.
On November 01 2014 21:17 BaneRiders wrote: Say, if EU/AM teams would actually employ KR players for real (even time limited contracts), would they still not get a visa? Compare with soccer, ice hockey or any other meat sport?
This expression I'll steal - "meat sports"!
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
The prize pool for WCS 2015 has already been announced as the same as previously (also the same as the money Valve puts towards TI's prize pool). Imagine the backlash if Blizzard downsized WCS considerably. It would be horrible for their PR! I imagine that when they developed WCS, they had something like a loose 5-year plan for it. A company like Blizzard doesn't do impulsive things on that scale.
On November 01 2014 23:09 Errormx wrote: Maybe we can do something about ForGG some petition or something. Hope blizzard is reading this.
No, the only way for forgg to keep playing in EU is getting a proper visa
Holiday working Visas (as the ones of germany) are visas that still allows you compete in WCS. The rule says that the visa must allow staying (not having permantley residence), working anda collecting prices in the country (thats exactly what a holiday working does). Btw the web ennounces some examples and holiday working visas are there
Nope; from wcs website : "Examples of non-acceptable identification
Expired visa Working holiday visa General tourist/visitor visa "
On November 01 2014 23:09 Errormx wrote: Maybe we can do something about ForGG some petition or something. Hope blizzard is reading this.
No, the only way for forgg to keep playing in EU is getting a proper visa
Holiday working Visas (as the ones of germany) are visas that still allows you compete in WCS. The rule says that the visa must allow staying (not having permantley residence), working anda collecting prices in the country (thats exactly what a holiday working does). Btw the web ennounces some examples and holiday working visas are there
Nope; from wcs website : "Examples of non-acceptable identification
Expired visa Working holiday visa General tourist/visitor visa "
The thing to do here is to allow working holiday visas for 2015 atleast.
On November 01 2014 23:09 Errormx wrote: Maybe we can do something about ForGG some petition or something. Hope blizzard is reading this.
No, the only way for forgg to keep playing in EU is getting a proper visa
Holiday working Visas (as the ones of germany) are visas that still allows you compete in WCS. The rule says that the visa must allow staying (not having permantley residence), working anda collecting prices in the country (thats exactly what a holiday working does). Btw the web ennounces some examples and holiday working visas are there
Nope; from wcs website : "Examples of non-acceptable identification
Expired visa Working holiday visa General tourist/visitor visa "
The thing to do here is to allow working holiday visas for 2015 atleast.
Then WCS EU/NA would be 90% koreans players with a bunny a snute or a scarlett here and there.
I think the rules a great as they are now, it's just sad that did not told the players beforehand, and that someone like ForGG is getting screwed now.
On November 01 2014 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: this circle-jerk of a thread has been way too positive.
when attendance at this weekend's WCS Global finals RO16 is sub par look for Blizzard to adjust the WCS prize pool downwards for 2015.
i see nothing in these changes that will allow Blizzard even the remote chance of breaking even in their esports ventures for SC2. Blizzard is not going to continue to pour money down the drain. Look for the over all prize pool in 2015 to decline compared to 2014 (WCS plus other events).
WCS has been run at a loss since day 1, why do you think it would change now?
Blizzard didn't make any money in its first 5 years either. But, for them to really start making cool games on a large scale they had to start making money. Same applies to WCS.
You probably don't know that SC2 is Mike Morhaime's personal boy and he won't stop supporting it, no matter it makes money or not.
If they make money off the events themselves it becomes a lot easier to pay the eSports stars a full time wage commensurate with the effort they put into the game. as long as it keeps losing money there is only so much Blizzard can justify to pour into it due to their corporate overlords ATVI.
On November 01 2014 22:35 digmouse wrote: You probably don't know that SC2 is Mike Morhaime's personal boy
you're incorrect. i know how he had to go to his grandma for money because his parents wanted nothing to do with video games. i read Morhaime's forward in the compendium of 3 works of SC1 fiction. i recall Morhaime stating that he always looks forward to the Starcraft competition at Blizzcon in the 20 year retrospective. read a few of my SC related posts and you'll see i follow Morhaime very closely.
For SC2 eSports to take off it needs its watershed event like Wrestlemania3 in 1987 or UFC30 in 2001. It will require a genius promoter to pull that off.
Disregarding these pie in the sky dreams though, 2015 should be a fun year for SC2 esports.
You have been negative in every thread about SC2's esports structure/Blizzard's strategy as early as 2012 if my memory was correct and you have been wrong ever since, you will be wrong again in 2015.
Since 2012 i said the over all annual prize pool will decline ( incl. WCS and other events). That has been true.
Blizzard is the best game developer in the world. They are not good at organizing ongoing tournament event series. As I said before, James Naismith invented a great game that does not mean he can run the NBA.
HotS breathed new life into the game.. hopefully LotV will do the same. Blizzard is great at making expansions. None of this will stop the decline in prize pool though. For this to happen a genius live event promoter guy is required. It might be impossible, but a genius level guy would at least have a chance.
On November 01 2014 23:09 Errormx wrote: Maybe we can do something about ForGG some petition or something. Hope blizzard is reading this.
No, the only way for forgg to keep playing in EU is getting a proper visa
Holiday working Visas (as the ones of germany) are visas that still allows you compete in WCS. The rule says that the visa must allow staying (not having permantley residence), working anda collecting prices in the country (thats exactly what a holiday working does). Btw the web ennounces some examples and holiday working visas are there
Nope; from wcs website : "Examples of non-acceptable identification
Expired visa Working holiday visa General tourist/visitor visa "
The thing to do here is to allow working holiday visas for 2015 atleast.
Well that wouldn't change much then, given that all the GEM guys have a working holiday visa. The thing that should have been done here is to tell players and teams way earlier.
On November 01 2014 23:09 Errormx wrote: Maybe we can do something about ForGG some petition or something. Hope blizzard is reading this.
No, the only way for forgg to keep playing in EU is getting a proper visa
Holiday working Visas (as the ones of germany) are visas that still allows you compete in WCS. The rule says that the visa must allow staying (not having permantley residence), working anda collecting prices in the country (thats exactly what a holiday working does). Btw the web ennounces some examples and holiday working visas are there
Nope; from wcs website : "Examples of non-acceptable identification
Expired visa Working holiday visa General tourist/visitor visa "
The thing to do here is to allow working holiday visas for 2015 atleast.
Well that wouldn't change much then, given that all the GEM guys have a working holiday visa. The thing that should have been done here is to tell players and teams way earlier.
A compromise of a few months to get papers in order seems the most reasonable. Not everybody can get what is needed though, Visas are hard to get in most countries.
Perhaps some middle east or Africa country is easier than the EU zone?
On November 01 2014 20:39 ANLProbe wrote: Can I get something straight? Is Korea having 3 GSLs, 3 SPOTV leagues as well as 3 KeSPA cups? Because some people seem to think that the KeSPA cup is the new SPOTV league so I'm not sure. Can someone update me on this.
Also, since GSL ro8-finals will be getting a venue on a weekend. Does that mean that players won't be getting a week to prepare for each opponent?
Also ANLProbe, where did you read that GSL Ro8 - Finals will be getting a venue on a weekend. That would really sucks, they need to give players some time to prepare for those important matches..
On November 01 2014 23:09 Errormx wrote: Maybe we can do something about ForGG some petition or something. Hope blizzard is reading this.
No, the only way for forgg to keep playing in EU is getting a proper visa
Holiday working Visas (as the ones of germany) are visas that still allows you compete in WCS. The rule says that the visa must allow staying (not having permantley residence), working anda collecting prices in the country (thats exactly what a holiday working does). Btw the web ennounces some examples and holiday working visas are there
Nope; from wcs website : "Examples of non-acceptable identification
Expired visa Working holiday visa General tourist/visitor visa "
The thing to do here is to allow working holiday visas for 2015 atleast.
Well that wouldn't change much then, given that all the GEM guys have a working holiday visa. The thing that should have been done here is to tell players and teams way earlier.
But this is what Blizzard wants? Koreans out of WCS EU/NA. If koreans would stay, 32 premier would be just joke. (with koreans need more spots than 32)
I want to watch high class Starcraft, not some forced-through-rate players. Imagine how many awesome players wont make it to Blizzcon next year, because it is filled with some cannon fodder.
On November 01 2014 15:50 CursOr wrote: I am going to be quite blunt and speculative.
I figure that Blizzard is looking for WCS viewership to go up drastically. I am quite sure they would like at least 5x to 10x more the viewers on all WCS events at all times. With many more people playing and being interested in the game. If things stay largely the same, well they will stay the same.
LotV and drastic changes to WCS are in the long term (2-3 years), going to be the last pushes to get dramatically increased viewership, or this shit is just going to go away. Blizzard cant just continue to fund it for another 20 years for no good reason.
And I SINCERELY hope it works. I like SC2 and would love to see it around for a long time.
Eh no, your 5-10x prediction is luldacris and I'm sure Blizzard aren't expecting that. Also, how exactly are Blizzard funding the scene? They aren't Riot. Sure they pitch in here and there but the sc2 scene have been largely independent of Blizzards support.
??? You're trolling right ???
Blizzard funds WCS entirely. It would appear they have gotten some small, token sponsorships but I would say its safe to assume they are funding at least 90% of everything to the tune of millions a year. And to think they are "expecting" better viewer numbers and some sort of return on the money they are spending ... that is what companies do. They aren't giving away millions of dollars to keep a few thousand people entertained.
On November 01 2014 23:28 redviper wrote: So basically Polt will win every WCS Unified tournament? I don't see anyone else who can compete with him.
Polt's wrist will start to weaken, and people will smell blood. It's no big deal. This won't be 5 years of Polt domination.
Some people get wrist problems almost unavoidably and some just do not get them. It's a shitty luck of the draw but that is just the genetic lottery for ya. Polt has been playing since day 1 and has never complained about his wrists (to my knowledge) ... while players like Scarlett and Taeja have had issues the entire time they have played.
On November 01 2014 23:28 redviper wrote: So basically Polt will win every WCS Unified tournament? I don't see anyone else who can compete with him.
Polt's wrist will start to weaken, and people will smell blood. It's no big deal. This won't be 5 years of Polt domination.
Some people get wrist problems almost unavoidably and some just do not get them. It's a shitty luck of the draw but that is just the genetic lottery for ya. Polt has been playing since day 1 and has never complained about his wrists (to my knowledge) ... while players like Scarlett and Taeja have had issues the entire time they have played.
Come on guys, why cannot Millenium employ ForGG for real and sort out a working visa for him? You know, a job, with social security, tax and everything. Like any non-EU soccer player in France?
On November 02 2014 00:19 BaneRiders wrote: Come on guys, why cannot Millenium employ ForGG for real and sort out a working visa for him? You know, a job, with social security, tax and everything. Like any non-EU soccer player in France?
On November 02 2014 00:19 BaneRiders wrote: Come on guys, why cannot Millenium employ ForGG for real and sort out a working visa for him? You know, a job, with social security, tax and everything. Like any non-EU soccer player in France?
Because it's a very expensive process
So if ForGG can bring home the moneys it can be done, am I right?
On November 02 2014 00:19 BaneRiders wrote: Come on guys, why cannot Millenium employ ForGG for real and sort out a working visa for him? You know, a job, with social security, tax and everything. Like any non-EU soccer player in France?
On November 02 2014 00:19 BaneRiders wrote: Come on guys, why cannot Millenium employ ForGG for real and sort out a working visa for him? You know, a job, with social security, tax and everything. Like any non-EU soccer player in France?
Because it's a very expensive process
So if ForGG can bring home the moneys it can be done, am I right?
Having a proper working visa is kinda long as well : between 4 and 6months. There won't be any koreans in WCS United besides Polt/Violet/JYP? in 2015
If im going to be honest i don't think JYP will even qualify he was losing to the mid tier na pros in the qualifer for 32 boys 1 cup and with only 8 spots i find it unlikely he can beat the best na has to offer.
On November 01 2014 15:50 CursOr wrote: LotV and drastic changes to WCS are in the long term (2-3 years), going to be the last pushes to get dramatically increased viewership, or this shit is just going to go away. Blizzard cant just continue to fund it for another 20 years for no good reason. And I SINCERELY hope it works. I like SC2 and would love to see it around for a long time.
in 2010, Frank Pierce ( executive producer ) stated SC2 eSports is a 10 year experiment. Blizzard rarely if ever breaks a concrete specific promise like this one. So I think we've got 5 years before Blizzard considers making any kind of drastic cutback.
On November 01 2014 15:50 CursOr wrote: LotV and drastic changes to WCS are in the long term (2-3 years), going to be the last pushes to get dramatically increased viewership, or this shit is just going to go away. Blizzard cant just continue to fund it for another 20 years for no good reason. And I SINCERELY hope it works. I like SC2 and would love to see it around for a long time.
in 2010, Frank Pierce ( executive producer ) stated SC2 eSports is a 10 year experiment. Blizzard rarely if ever breaks a concrete specific promise like this one. So I think we've got 5 years before Blizzard considers making any kind of drastic cutback.
Not doubting you, just interested. Do you have a link to that statement/interview?
On November 02 2014 00:19 BaneRiders wrote: Come on guys, why cannot Millenium employ ForGG for real and sort out a working visa for him? You know, a job, with social security, tax and everything. Like any non-EU soccer player in France?
Because it's a very expensive process
So if ForGG can bring home the moneys it can be done, am I right?
Can he bring home millions each month? No? Ok moving on.
On November 02 2014 00:19 BaneRiders wrote: Come on guys, why cannot Millenium employ ForGG for real and sort out a working visa for him? You know, a job, with social security, tax and everything. Like any non-EU soccer player in France?
Because it's a very expensive process
So if ForGG can bring home the moneys it can be done, am I right?
Can he bring home millions each month? No? Ok moving on.
Don't be daft man. If he could bring in that, he could buy a permanent visa in any European country. He wouldn't Millenium anymore.
On November 02 2014 00:19 BaneRiders wrote: Come on guys, why cannot Millenium employ ForGG for real and sort out a working visa for him? You know, a job, with social security, tax and everything. Like any non-EU soccer player in France?
Because it's a very expensive process
So if ForGG can bring home the moneys it can be done, am I right?
Can he bring home millions each month? No? Ok moving on.
I know employment costs in EU are high, but "millions" might be a bit much.
On November 02 2014 00:19 BaneRiders wrote: Come on guys, why cannot Millenium employ ForGG for real and sort out a working visa for him? You know, a job, with social security, tax and everything. Like any non-EU soccer player in France?
Because it's a very expensive process
So if ForGG can bring home the moneys it can be done, am I right?
Can he bring home millions each month? No? Ok moving on.
I know employment costs in EU are high, but "millions" might be a bit much.
Actually , he had one French contract with social security and everything but he had to learn french and stay in france, then he met his girlfriends in germany and he decide to use the non worker german visa used by the korean in Europe. So , he knew it was risky to move in germany and not take the french lesson to keep his work visa in France , he took the risk and now, he is paying for it
On November 01 2014 07:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I like this a lot.
Unified league outside of Korea is really exciting to me. Grubby vs Violet, TLO vs HuK, Bunny vs Scarlett bring it on.
Additionally the regional qualifiers into live Ro32 are a huge improvement to the legitimacy of playing cross server for Taiwanese, Latin Americans, Chinese, etc. Now they can just play on their local servers and qualify directly into live Ro32.
Live on-site Ro16 as a legitimate event instead of Ro8 and even the finals played in the same studio in front of the same 20 people?
Same prizepool?!
whilst having some cool NA v EU matchups, i dont really understand the purpose behind such a drastic change to an otherwise mostly stable system
stable? viewerships are dropping like crazy... Change is needed, if its for better or worse - we'll need to wait to judge that
dropping like crazy? You clearly weren't watching WCS last year
what country that is available for WCS Polt, has the most lenient method of obtaining student or working visas?
theres a bunch of countries that will have qualifiers for WCS Polt, which one of these would be easiest?
Macau? Taiwan? Some smaller country in Africa, or Latin America?
if those Koreans are serious about participating in WCS Polt, maybe they can move to one of the smaller countries and go to a community college there to get a student visa?.......
On November 02 2014 00:19 BaneRiders wrote: Come on guys, why cannot Millenium employ ForGG for real and sort out a working visa for him? You know, a job, with social security, tax and everything. Like any non-EU soccer player in France?
Because it's a very expensive process
So if ForGG can bring home the moneys it can be done, am I right?
Can he bring home millions each month? No? Ok moving on.
I know employment costs in EU are high, but "millions" might be a bit much.
Actually , he had one French contract with social security and everything but he had to learn french and stay in france, then he met his girlfriends in germany and he decide to use the non worker german visa used by the korean in Europe. So , he knew it was risky to move in germany and not take the french lesson to keep his work visa in France , he took the risk and now, he is paying for it
Thanks for clarifying. Karma then. No need for petitions, just play by the rules dudes. Proper visas can be had, but there are requirements that come with them, for SC2 pros as for everyone else. *shrugs*
On November 01 2014 15:50 CursOr wrote: I am going to be quite blunt and speculative.
I figure that Blizzard is looking for WCS viewership to go up drastically. I am quite sure they would like at least 5x to 10x more the viewers on all WCS events at all times. With many more people playing and being interested in the game. If things stay largely the same, well they will stay the same.
LotV and drastic changes to WCS are in the long term (2-3 years), going to be the last pushes to get dramatically increased viewership, or this shit is just going to go away. Blizzard cant just continue to fund it for another 20 years for no good reason.
And I SINCERELY hope it works. I like SC2 and would love to see it around for a long time.
Eh no, your 5-10x prediction is luldacris and I'm sure Blizzard aren't expecting that. Also, how exactly are Blizzard funding the scene? They aren't Riot. Sure they pitch in here and there but the sc2 scene have been largely independent of Blizzards support.
??? You're trolling right ???
Blizzard funds WCS entirely. It would appear they have gotten some small, token sponsorships but I would say its safe to assume they are funding at least 90% of everything to the tune of millions a year. And to think they are "expecting" better viewer numbers and some sort of return on the money they are spending ... that is what companies do. They aren't giving away millions of dollars to keep a few thousand people entertained.
they need to produce more money with their live events. even 10X the # of twitch viewers won't do it.
they need to be able to sell tickets for $100+ in the thousands. live events must generate substantial revenue via PPV or via in-event ticket sales.
i've not seen 1 single crowd shot for today's event and it sounds like there are less than 100 people there. tickets for today were just $20.
Blizzard knows how to make entertainment software. They are mediocre at best when it comes to live event promotion.
Blizzard needs to hand WCS over to a live event promoter that knows their stuff. Taking Sc2 esports from the fringe to a break even financial situation requires Vince Mcmahon level genius.
Realistically about the same number of foreigners will make it into the new unified Premier league. 38 foreigners made it into NA+EU premier league last season. So about 30 will make it next season. The difference is they'll have to fend off only about 3 or so Koreans instead of the 26 they had to fend off last season. They won't be cannon fodder anymore. I don't see how that's anything but positive.
hmm.. i think i dont like this change, i mean, it's a good think to try the region lock and Premier League, but the real probleme of Starcraft 2 is not that. The real problem is viewer less and give some opportunities for pro player to believe in pro gaming.
For the viewer less, LOV can be a good thing, i really trust in David Kim team, but we need more money, we need more show, we need bigger ESL studio, without this arrangement, Starcraft 2 will stay the "poor Esport game" i dont play LOL but its obvious that more money is invest by Riot, and it's obvisously more beautifull/entertain to watch.
The second thing is, WCS will not carry all the proplayer, so Blizzard need to invest and help all the other tournament more than giving some WCS point, or player will always train then stop, train then stop, cause its too hard if you are not one of the best player to live and pay your bill.
If WCS 2015 is just : new premier league, and now we have region lock, nothing will change, we will have some good thing with LOV beta and release then.. player will think, ok this game is cool, but its so many time to train for just what ? one big tournament WCS, and the other one, who, if you are not in premier league, you will not be invite.. i'm not sur its a good thing.. but let's see
On November 01 2014 15:50 CursOr wrote: I am going to be quite blunt and speculative.
I figure that Blizzard is looking for WCS viewership to go up drastically. I am quite sure they would like at least 5x to 10x more the viewers on all WCS events at all times. With many more people playing and being interested in the game. If things stay largely the same, well they will stay the same.
LotV and drastic changes to WCS are in the long term (2-3 years), going to be the last pushes to get dramatically increased viewership, or this shit is just going to go away. Blizzard cant just continue to fund it for another 20 years for no good reason.
And I SINCERELY hope it works. I like SC2 and would love to see it around for a long time.
Eh no, your 5-10x prediction is luldacris and I'm sure Blizzard aren't expecting that. Also, how exactly are Blizzard funding the scene? They aren't Riot. Sure they pitch in here and there but the sc2 scene have been largely independent of Blizzards support.
??? You're trolling right ???
Blizzard funds WCS entirely. It would appear they have gotten some small, token sponsorships but I would say its safe to assume they are funding at least 90% of everything to the tune of millions a year. And to think they are "expecting" better viewer numbers and some sort of return on the money they are spending ... that is what companies do. They aren't giving away millions of dollars to keep a few thousand people entertained.
they need to produce more money with their live events. even 10X the # of twitch viewers won't do it.
they need to be able to sell tickets for $100+ in the thousands. live events must generate substantial revenue via PPV or via in-event ticket sales.
i've not seen 1 single crowd shot for today's event and it sounds like there are less than 100 people there. tickets for today were just $20.
Blizzard knows how to make entertainment software. They are mediocre at best when it comes to live event promotion.
Blizzard needs to hand WCS over to a live event promoter that knows their stuff. Taking Sc2 esports from the fringe to a break even financial situation requires Vince Mcmahon level genius.
Who cares about the fact that a little studio is filled up ? Blizzard didn't even announced that they were tickets for the studio. It's normal tough, they've made publicity for the tickets at Blizzcon, which we want to be filled up.
It's not that Blizzard are terrible at promoting events, it wasn't an objectif there.
On November 02 2014 06:10 Anoss wrote: hmm.. i think i dont like this change, i mean, it's a good think to try the region lock and Premier League, but the real probleme of Starcraft 2 is not that. The real problem is viewer less and give some opportunities for pro player to believe in pro gaming.
For the viewer less, LOV can be a good thing, i really trust in David Kim team, but we need more money, we need more show, we need bigger ESL studio, without this arrangement, Starcraft 2 will stay the "poor Esport game" i dont play LOL but its obvious that more money is invest by Riot, and it's obvisously more beautifull/entertain to watch.
The second thing is, WCS will not carry all the proplayer, so Blizzard need to invest and help all the other tournament more than giving some WCS point, or player will always train then stop, train then stop, cause its too hard if you are not one of the best player to live and pay your bill.
If WCS 2015 is just : new premier league, and now we have region lock, nothing will change, we will have some good thing with LOV beta and release then.. player will think, ok this game is cool, but its so many time to train for just what ? one big tournament WCS, and the other one, who, if you are not in premier league, you will not be invite.. i'm not sur its a good thing.. but let's see
You know David Kim's team just does design and balance changes and i don't think design/balance are the biggest issues in Starcraft actually. But i trust Blizzard, they will do a great job.
Oh and for more shows and bigger events, i don't know if you read it clearly but now RO32 is played offline and Ro16 will be play in a venue.
The system looks amazing on the surface. Only downside is that EU and NA will probably have some connection/timezone issues. But rewarding Koreans for being the best players and giving exclusivity (kind of) to foreigners is a really nice move. I'd imagine even though EU and NA are being combined, foreigners will take home more money than they were before, considering top 8 in both regions was always about 85% Korean anyway in the previous iterations.
[QUOTE]On November 02 2014 06:18 Dexp wrote: [QUOTE]You know David Kim's team just does design and balance changes and i don't think design/balance are the biggest issues in Starcraft actually. But i trust Blizzard, they will do a great job.
Oh and for more shows and bigger events, i don't know if you read it clearly but now RO32 is played offline and Ro16 will be play in a venue.[/QUOTE]
I think design/balance is an issue, games are pretty the same, we need the last unit to have a better dynamics in game.
Ro32 offline is good you right, but it will not change the WCS at all.. its a small change, a good one, but not enough imo, its just 1 different day, all the rest will be the same, and that's not fixing the pro player problem, only 32 player will be sur to have money, Blizzard need to invest on the other too.
On November 01 2014 15:50 CursOr wrote: I am going to be quite blunt and speculative.
I figure that Blizzard is looking for WCS viewership to go up drastically. I am quite sure they would like at least 5x to 10x more the viewers on all WCS events at all times. With many more people playing and being interested in the game. If things stay largely the same, well they will stay the same.
LotV and drastic changes to WCS are in the long term (2-3 years), going to be the last pushes to get dramatically increased viewership, or this shit is just going to go away. Blizzard cant just continue to fund it for another 20 years for no good reason.
And I SINCERELY hope it works. I like SC2 and would love to see it around for a long time.
Eh no, your 5-10x prediction is luldacris and I'm sure Blizzard aren't expecting that. Also, how exactly are Blizzard funding the scene? They aren't Riot. Sure they pitch in here and there but the sc2 scene have been largely independent of Blizzards support.
??? You're trolling right ???
Blizzard funds WCS entirely. It would appear they have gotten some small, token sponsorships but I would say its safe to assume they are funding at least 90% of everything to the tune of millions a year. And to think they are "expecting" better viewer numbers and some sort of return on the money they are spending ... that is what companies do. They aren't giving away millions of dollars to keep a few thousand people entertained.
they need to produce more money with their live events. even 10X the # of twitch viewers won't do it.
they need to be able to sell tickets for $100+ in the thousands. live events must generate substantial revenue via PPV or via in-event ticket sales.
i've not seen 1 single crowd shot for today's event and it sounds like there are less than 100 people there. tickets for today were just $20.
Blizzard knows how to make entertainment software. They are mediocre at best when it comes to live event promotion.
Blizzard needs to hand WCS over to a live event promoter that knows their stuff. Taking Sc2 esports from the fringe to a break even financial situation requires Vince Mcmahon level genius.
You're assuming Blizzard's aim is to turn the e-sports itself into a big money maker. Blizzard's aim is to sell games. WCS is one big commercial.
[QUOTE]On November 02 2014 06:40 Anoss wrote: [QUOTE]On November 02 2014 06:18 Dexp wrote: [QUOTE]You know David Kim's team just does design and balance changes and i don't think design/balance are the biggest issues in Starcraft actually. But i trust Blizzard, they will do a great job.
Oh and for more shows and bigger events, i don't know if you read it clearly but now RO32 is played offline and Ro16 will be play in a venue.[/QUOTE]
I think design/balance is an issue, games are pretty the same, we need the last unit to have a better dynamics in game.
Ro32 offline is good you right, but it will not change the WCS at all.. its a small change, a good one, but not enough imo, its just 1 different day, all the rest will be the same, and that's not fixing the pro player problem, only 32 player will be sur to have money, Blizzard need to invest on the other too.
[/QUOTE]
I never said that Design/balance wasn't an issue, it is definitely with long Swarm host game, Tempest, Widow mine and you are right, the games are pretty much the same every time. I still don't think that balance/design is the BIGGEST issues of Starcraft.
RO32 offline might be a small change but RO16 with a real scene and a real crowd is pretty huge i think. I also think it will be harder for up and coming player and lower skill progamer to make money out of Starcraft.
There is good and bad in these changes, but overall, i think it's a step in the right direction.
On November 02 2014 09:21 SNSeigifried wrote: 2k for challenger :O
Great news, I was worried about that, but they did it right .
So if the 32 players that fail to get into Premiere still get 2k that will be 64K for challenger which leaves 198k for premiere. I think that's pretty much perfect distribution.
Now even with Polt, Violet and maybe one or two more Koreans a lot more money will reach foreigners with this system. With Korea having a lot more tournaments, this is win win really.
Edit: In WCS 2013 S3 foreigners made $49,200 in WCS NA and $65,400 in WCS EU, so $114,600 for foreigners over all. This number should grow quite a bit next season.
On November 01 2014 07:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I like this a lot.
Unified league outside of Korea is really exciting to me. Grubby vs Violet, TLO vs HuK, Bunny vs Scarlett bring it on.
Additionally the regional qualifiers into live Ro32 are a huge improvement to the legitimacy of playing cross server for Taiwanese, Latin Americans, Chinese, etc. Now they can just play on their local servers and qualify directly into live Ro32.
Live on-site Ro16 as a legitimate event instead of Ro8 and even the finals played in the same studio in front of the same 20 people?
Same prizepool?!
whilst having some cool NA v EU matchups, i dont really understand the purpose behind such a drastic change to an otherwise mostly stable system
Because they already made a drastic change with region locks. This change had to happen because otherwise WCS NA was literally going to be lets wait till the ro4 so Polt Violet Scarlett +1 can actually play close games
On November 01 2014 15:50 CursOr wrote: I am going to be quite blunt and speculative.
I figure that Blizzard is looking for WCS viewership to go up drastically. I am quite sure they would like at least 5x to 10x more the viewers on all WCS events at all times. With many more people playing and being interested in the game. If things stay largely the same, well they will stay the same.
LotV and drastic changes to WCS are in the long term (2-3 years), going to be the last pushes to get dramatically increased viewership, or this shit is just going to go away. Blizzard cant just continue to fund it for another 20 years for no good reason.
And I SINCERELY hope it works. I like SC2 and would love to see it around for a long time.
Eh no, your 5-10x prediction is luldacris and I'm sure Blizzard aren't expecting that. Also, how exactly are Blizzard funding the scene? They aren't Riot. Sure they pitch in here and there but the sc2 scene have been largely independent of Blizzards support.
??? You're trolling right ???
Blizzard funds WCS entirely. It would appear they have gotten some small, token sponsorships but I would say its safe to assume they are funding at least 90% of everything to the tune of millions a year. And to think they are "expecting" better viewer numbers and some sort of return on the money they are spending ... that is what companies do. They aren't giving away millions of dollars to keep a few thousand people entertained.
they need to produce more money with their live events. even 10X the # of twitch viewers won't do it.
they need to be able to sell tickets for $100+ in the thousands. live events must generate substantial revenue via PPV or via in-event ticket sales.
i've not seen 1 single crowd shot for today's event and it sounds like there are less than 100 people there. tickets for today were just $20.
Blizzard knows how to make entertainment software. They are mediocre at best when it comes to live event promotion.
Blizzard needs to hand WCS over to a live event promoter that knows their stuff. Taking Sc2 esports from the fringe to a break even financial situation requires Vince Mcmahon level genius.
You're assuming Blizzard's aim is to turn the e-sports itself into a big money maker. Blizzard's aim is to sell games. WCS is one big commercial.
OK , so when Frank Pierce said SC2 Esports would be a 10 year experiment he wanted to take over control of the leagues and turn this.... + Show Spoiler +
into the half empty arena with rock bottom ticket prices that we're going to see next week?
great plan.
showing me a panoramic view of 20,000+ WoW fans at Blizzcon last year watching SC2 won't fuel the prize pool starving esports stars need to remain playing full time.
countless high level SC2 community members have already provided scathing criticisms of Blizzard's bungling of the competitive scene over the past 4.5 years. There is no point in going over that material again. HOwever, this is how we go from the pictured event above and what we've seen at live events throughout 2014.
Blizzard is not very good at 1) promoting live events 2) creating stars
south korean marketing specialists nailed #2. vince mcmahon, Zuffa, Don King have nailed #2. great promoters know how to create stars. Blizzard does not.
Blizzard is great at making games though. Nothing in the changes to WCS from 2014 to 2015 will address the 2 issues i listed. this is just a cryin' shame because the games themselves this weekend are absolutely fuckin' amazing.
On November 01 2014 15:50 CursOr wrote: I am going to be quite blunt and speculative.
I figure that Blizzard is looking for WCS viewership to go up drastically. I am quite sure they would like at least 5x to 10x more the viewers on all WCS events at all times. With many more people playing and being interested in the game. If things stay largely the same, well they will stay the same.
LotV and drastic changes to WCS are in the long term (2-3 years), going to be the last pushes to get dramatically increased viewership, or this shit is just going to go away. Blizzard cant just continue to fund it for another 20 years for no good reason.
And I SINCERELY hope it works. I like SC2 and would love to see it around for a long time.
Eh no, your 5-10x prediction is luldacris and I'm sure Blizzard aren't expecting that. Also, how exactly are Blizzard funding the scene? They aren't Riot. Sure they pitch in here and there but the sc2 scene have been largely independent of Blizzards support.
??? You're trolling right ???
Blizzard funds WCS entirely. It would appear they have gotten some small, token sponsorships but I would say its safe to assume they are funding at least 90% of everything to the tune of millions a year. And to think they are "expecting" better viewer numbers and some sort of return on the money they are spending ... that is what companies do. They aren't giving away millions of dollars to keep a few thousand people entertained.
they need to produce more money with their live events. even 10X the # of twitch viewers won't do it.
they need to be able to sell tickets for $100+ in the thousands. live events must generate substantial revenue via PPV or via in-event ticket sales.
i've not seen 1 single crowd shot for today's event and it sounds like there are less than 100 people there. tickets for today were just $20.
Blizzard knows how to make entertainment software. They are mediocre at best when it comes to live event promotion.
Blizzard needs to hand WCS over to a live event promoter that knows their stuff. Taking Sc2 esports from the fringe to a break even financial situation requires Vince Mcmahon level genius.
You're assuming Blizzard's aim is to turn the e-sports itself into a big money maker. Blizzard's aim is to sell games. WCS is one big commercial.
OK , so when Frank Pierce said SC2 Esports would be a 10 year experiment he wanted to take over control of the leagues and turn this....
into the half empty arena with rock bottom ticket prices that we're going to see next week?
great plan.
showing me a panoramic view of 20,000+ WoW fans at Blizzcon last year watching SC2 won't fuel the prize pool starving esports stars need to remain playing full time.
Aren't you a negative nancy. A guy/gal going to Blizzcon into WoW AND SC2? Inconceivable.
On November 01 2014 20:29 vitka wrote: I´m sorry guys, but who came up with the fact that you need to know the language to get working-visa? This is totally wrong! I can only speak for germany, but the best example: my flatmate is from south korea, doesnt speak a work, got his working visa even before arriving here! i know plenty of people coming outside from EU, who got working visa without problems, without knowing german.
I also checked the embassy and foreign office: not a single note that you need to speak german. especially for koreans it is quite easy to come to europe, as they are some kind of partners.
the only thing you need: working contract. as we talking about professional players, they probably already have working contract with their sponsors/teams/whatever, if not, do it.
Of course you don't need to speak the language to get a working visa. People need to stop talking out of their ass.
However you are talking out of your ass too. You don't just need a working contract for a working visa you need a working contract with extreme requirements. For example in the Netherlands this is €38465 for people under 30 and €52462 for over 30. The reason why they can't get legitimate working visas is because those visas are only given out with extreme salary requirements and sports visas are probably out of reach for SC2.
Imagine if you could get a working visa for a $1500 contract can you imagine the insane amount of immigrants Europe would have to deal with?
My korean flatmate earned 1500€/month, startup architect company in Berlin. Other friends got working visa with their jobs in a cafe...
He should be very afraid. In all seriousness I obviously can't speak for your roommate but if I were to guess there are details to his situations that you are unaware of.
ah, he hasnt to be afraid. paying 300€ for room you have a lot of money left to enjoy berlin. as i said, i know some other guys who have similar conditions. i just brought him up because he is south korean, i could bring up turkish or australian people as well. i also dont know if there are differences between the countries inside europe. i just guess, that if you can show a contract and proof that you can live with that money, it shouldnt be a problem to get working visa. thing could(!) be that they are all graduated.
Of course there are differences in Europe. Over 30000 Euro in Poland and you're relatively rich. Over 50k euro is a lot.
On November 02 2014 09:21 SNSeigifried wrote: 2k for challenger :O
again the naysayers who were complaining about less money for the unified WCS are proven to be premature and determined to hate whatever blizzard does
mathematically it does. same prizepool like this year ($1,6M) but Korea gets 175k (from 170k) each season now. This means 5k less for unified WCS each season.
On November 01 2014 20:49 Gr33d wrote: Looks like TB is still salty when it comes to TaKe's events. They give out a big enough prize pool, meet the other requirements AND a lot of people watch them, ofc they should also give WCS points then.
Every single time someone says this they're inevitably from bloody Germany. Geez I get it, TaKe is amazing for this community and a great representative of his country but get off his dick for 5 seconds and realise that I have absolutely nothing against him or his events, in fact it is Blizzards policies I'm disagreeing with in regards to WCS and HSCs receiving WCS points just happens to be one of the most egregious and obvious examples of an invitational that received a lot of points, when it really shouldn't have.
You know David Kim's team just does design and balance changes and i don't think design/balance are the biggest issues in Starcraft actually. But i trust Blizzard, they will do a great job.
Oh and for more shows and bigger events, i don't know if you read it clearly but now RO32 is played offline and Ro16 will be play in a venue.
I think design/balance is an issue, games are pretty the same, we need the last unit to have a better dynamics in game.
Ro32 offline is good you right, but it will not change the WCS at all.. its a small change, a good one, but not enough imo, its just 1 different day, all the rest will be the same, and that's not fixing the pro player problem, only 32 player will be sur to have money, Blizzard need to invest on the other too.
I never said that Design/balance wasn't an issue, it is definitely with long Swarm host game, Tempest, Widow mine and you are right, the games are pretty much the same every time. I still don't think that balance/design is the BIGGEST issues of Starcraft.
RO32 offline might be a small change but RO16 with a real scene and a real crowd is pretty huge i think. I also think it will be harder for up and coming player and lower skill progamer to make money out of Starcraft.
There is good and bad in these changes, but overall, i think it's a step in the right direction.
"A step in the right direction" a very little step in my opinion.. look at yesterday, Taeja VS Soo 35k viewers.. that's our knew RO32 offline ! just one day like this will change anything.. It's kind of boring to look Blizzard act like they have time, only Blizzard have time, i work with the game (youtube, casting etc) all the people have scared, they is no view anymore, cause game are same, pro player can't focus on the game with not a lot of tournament, and we wait 1 year for just, one day off more, in same condition as yesterday.. i love Blizzard, i love the game, but it's obviously bad, we need more, look at yesterday, Taeja, Life, Soo but where is the show ? where is the Crowd ? where is the money ?? all is cheap, 5 years later... WCS should be the ultimate tournament, the most imposant, most beautifull, even the time who its play its not good ( Yesterday its start 6pm to 8 am for EU, after 3 am for EU we were 35k...) and we all know that EU is more watching Starcraft than US... really i mean so many guys pay to think and no one make the right call.. i really love Blizzard and Starcraft 2 but no, its not a good little step, nobody has time, Blizzard neet do pull it up the community, not save time like that
On November 02 2014 09:21 SNSeigifried wrote: 2k for challenger :O
Great news, I was worried about that, but they did it right .
So if the 32 players that fail to get into Premiere still get 2k that will be 64K for challenger which leaves 136k for premiere. I think that's pretty much perfect distribution.
I think the prize distribution is the same in top32 except winner gets 30k instead 25k. Right now is 131k for premier league.
On November 01 2014 07:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I dont know. WCS NA and WCS EU in same? That kind of sucks... 32 players in premier, so that means 32 premier spots less than now. That sucks
I disagree, I think that's pretty good. I was against region locking from the start, but now that it's done, at least there's only one 'weaker' wcs (comparatively ofc, I'm not trying to say foreign players aren't good players so don't start with that), so Blizzcon will still be a fairly great group of players, especially with the two korean leagues.
I'm shocked at this and have no idea what I think about it.
One question though is what does this mean "with dedicated slots for players from different regions"?
Does it mean 10 slots for EU 10 slots for NA and so on. Meaning that no matter how much better X regions is, only the top 10 may go? Why have dedicated slots? Its like, even if X regions has super bad players compared to the others of course you should have players qualify too.....
On November 03 2014 02:24 Shuffleblade wrote: I'm shocked at this and have no idea what I think about it.
One question though is what does this mean "with dedicated slots for players from different regions"?
Does it mean 10 slots for EU 10 slots for NA and so on. Meaning that no matter how much better X regions is, only the top 10 may go? Why have dedicated slots? Its like, even if X regions has super bad players compared to the others of course you should have players qualify too.....
The slot repartition is in the OP, and actually it's 14 for EU and 8 for NA, because even Blizzard knows which is the best region. However the number of slots for the other regions may seem pretty low (I'm thinking of Taiwan and China)
On November 02 2014 09:21 SNSeigifried wrote: 2k for challenger :O
Great news, I was worried about that, but they did it right .
So if the 32 players that fail to get into Premiere still get 2k that will be 64K for challenger which leaves 136k for premiere. I think that's pretty much perfect distribution.
I think the prize distribution is the same in top32 except winner gets 30k instead 25k. Right now is 131k for premier league.
Right I forgot the Prize money was 131k, I did my math with 100k, oops . So that would leave 198k for Premiere league, Kim Phan confirmed that the money stays the same and none of it goes to Korea. So the prize money for Premiere league is insane now.
You know David Kim's team just does design and balance changes and i don't think design/balance are the biggest issues in Starcraft actually. But i trust Blizzard, they will do a great job.
Oh and for more shows and bigger events, i don't know if you read it clearly but now RO32 is played offline and Ro16 will be play in a venue.
I think design/balance is an issue, games are pretty the same, we need the last unit to have a better dynamics in game.
Ro32 offline is good you right, but it will not change the WCS at all.. its a small change, a good one, but not enough imo, its just 1 different day, all the rest will be the same, and that's not fixing the pro player problem, only 32 player will be sur to have money, Blizzard need to invest on the other too.
I never said that Design/balance wasn't an issue, it is definitely with long Swarm host game, Tempest, Widow mine and you are right, the games are pretty much the same every time. I still don't think that balance/design is the BIGGEST issues of Starcraft.
RO32 offline might be a small change but RO16 with a real scene and a real crowd is pretty huge i think. I also think it will be harder for up and coming player and lower skill progamer to make money out of Starcraft.
There is good and bad in these changes, but overall, i think it's a step in the right direction.
"A step in the right direction" a very little step in my opinion.. look at yesterday, Taeja VS Soo 35k viewers.. that's our knew RO32 offline ! just one day like this will change anything.. It's kind of boring to look Blizzard act like they have time, only Blizzard have time, i work with the game (youtube, casting etc) all the people have scared, they is no view anymore, cause game are same, pro player can't focus on the game with not a lot of tournament, and we wait 1 year for just, one day off more, in same condition as yesterday.. i love Blizzard, i love the game, but it's obviously bad, we need more, look at yesterday, Taeja, Life, Soo but where is the show ? where is the Crowd ? where is the money ?? all is cheap, 5 years later... WCS should be the ultimate tournament, the most imposant, most beautifull, even the time who its play its not good ( Yesterday its start 6pm to 8 am for EU, after 3 am for EU we were 35k...) and we all know that EU is more watching Starcraft than US... really i mean so many guys pay to think and no one make the right call.. i really love Blizzard and Starcraft 2 but no, its not a good little step, nobody has time, Blizzard neet do pull it up the community, not save time like that
I'm sorry Anoss, i don't understand anything of what you are saying, i know you are French ( Je parle Français aussi ) but don't try to argue in English if you don't have good knowledge of it.
You know David Kim's team just does design and balance changes and i don't think design/balance are the biggest issues in Starcraft actually. But i trust Blizzard, they will do a great job.
Oh and for more shows and bigger events, i don't know if you read it clearly but now RO32 is played offline and Ro16 will be play in a venue.
I think design/balance is an issue, games are pretty the same, we need the last unit to have a better dynamics in game.
Ro32 offline is good you right, but it will not change the WCS at all.. its a small change, a good one, but not enough imo, its just 1 different day, all the rest will be the same, and that's not fixing the pro player problem, only 32 player will be sur to have money, Blizzard need to invest on the other too.
I never said that Design/balance wasn't an issue, it is definitely with long Swarm host game, Tempest, Widow mine and you are right, the games are pretty much the same every time. I still don't think that balance/design is the BIGGEST issues of Starcraft.
RO32 offline might be a small change but RO16 with a real scene and a real crowd is pretty huge i think. I also think it will be harder for up and coming player and lower skill progamer to make money out of Starcraft.
There is good and bad in these changes, but overall, i think it's a step in the right direction.
"A step in the right direction" a very little step in my opinion.. look at yesterday, Taeja VS Soo 35k viewers.. that's our knew RO32 offline ! just one day like this will change anything.. It's kind of boring to look Blizzard act like they have time, only Blizzard have time, i work with the game (youtube, casting etc) all the people have scared, they is no view anymore, cause game are same, pro player can't focus on the game with not a lot of tournament, and we wait 1 year for just, one day off more, in same condition as yesterday.. i love Blizzard, i love the game, but it's obviously bad, we need more, look at yesterday, Taeja, Life, Soo but where is the show ? where is the Crowd ? where is the money ?? all is cheap, 5 years later... WCS should be the ultimate tournament, the most imposant, most beautifull, even the time who its play its not good ( Yesterday its start 6pm to 8 am for EU, after 3 am for EU we were 35k...) and we all know that EU is more watching Starcraft than US... really i mean so many guys pay to think and no one make the right call.. i really love Blizzard and Starcraft 2 but no, its not a good little step, nobody has time, Blizzard neet do pull it up the community, not save time like that
I'm sorry Anoss, i don't understand anything of what you are saying, i know you are French ( Je parle Français aussi ) but don't try to argue in English if you don't have good knowledge of it.
I would love to debate in French with you tough.
I think he's basically saying that Blizzard is bad at organizing WCS (not investing enough into BlizzCon, bad organization at BlizzCon concerning schedule inadapted for Europeans and such), that the SC2 scene is dying (no viewers/no money/no tournaments/no crowds), and that the new WCS system sucks. I don't get the part about time though, I think it means that Blizzard needs to act quickly to try to save SC2 (?)
You know David Kim's team just does design and balance changes and i don't think design/balance are the biggest issues in Starcraft actually. But i trust Blizzard, they will do a great job.
Oh and for more shows and bigger events, i don't know if you read it clearly but now RO32 is played offline and Ro16 will be play in a venue.
I think design/balance is an issue, games are pretty the same, we need the last unit to have a better dynamics in game.
Ro32 offline is good you right, but it will not change the WCS at all.. its a small change, a good one, but not enough imo, its just 1 different day, all the rest will be the same, and that's not fixing the pro player problem, only 32 player will be sur to have money, Blizzard need to invest on the other too.
I never said that Design/balance wasn't an issue, it is definitely with long Swarm host game, Tempest, Widow mine and you are right, the games are pretty much the same every time. I still don't think that balance/design is the BIGGEST issues of Starcraft.
RO32 offline might be a small change but RO16 with a real scene and a real crowd is pretty huge i think. I also think it will be harder for up and coming player and lower skill progamer to make money out of Starcraft.
There is good and bad in these changes, but overall, i think it's a step in the right direction.
"A step in the right direction" a very little step in my opinion.. look at yesterday, Taeja VS Soo 35k viewers.. that's our knew RO32 offline ! just one day like this will change anything.. It's kind of boring to look Blizzard act like they have time, only Blizzard have time, i work with the game (youtube, casting etc) all the people have scared, they is no view anymore, cause game are same, pro player can't focus on the game with not a lot of tournament, and we wait 1 year for just, one day off more, in same condition as yesterday.. i love Blizzard, i love the game, but it's obviously bad, we need more, look at yesterday, Taeja, Life, Soo but where is the show ? where is the Crowd ? where is the money ?? all is cheap, 5 years later... WCS should be the ultimate tournament, the most imposant, most beautifull, even the time who its play its not good ( Yesterday its start 6pm to 8 am for EU, after 3 am for EU we were 35k...) and we all know that EU is more watching Starcraft than US... really i mean so many guys pay to think and no one make the right call.. i really love Blizzard and Starcraft 2 but no, its not a good little step, nobody has time, Blizzard neet do pull it up the community, not save time like that
For those who had troubles reading the post, this is what I understood of it:
"A step in the right direction" a very little step in my opinion... Look at yesterday, Taeja vs soO: 35k viewers... That's our new RO32 offline! Just one day like this will change nothing... It's kind of boring to watch Blizzard act like they have time, only Blizzard has time, I work around the game (Youtube, casting, etc.) and everyone is scared, there are no viewers anymore, because the games are the same, pro players can't focus on the game with the lack of tournament, and we wait 1 year for just one more day offline, in the same conditions as yesterday...
I love Blizzard, I love the game, but it's obviously bad, we need more, look at yesterday, Taeja, Life, soO are there but where is the show? Where is the crowd? Where is the money? Everything is cheap, 5 years later... WCS should be the ultimate tournament, the most imposing, the most beautiful... Even the schedule was not good (yesterday it started at 6pm to 8 am for EU, after 3 am for EU we were 35k...) and we all know that EU is watching Starcraft more than US... Really I mean so many guys paid to think and no one makes the right call... I really love Blizzard and Starcraft 2 but no, it's not a good little step, nobody has time, Blizzard needs do step it up for the community, not buy time like that."
Yeah, getting the gist of the post isn't that difficult:
Taeja vs Soo = no viewers online (due to impossible broadcasting time for EU) and no viewers offline (since Blizzard didn't make an event of it). And this is supposed to be the best and most hyped tournament of the year.
well this sucks. they announce we will have region-locked WCS this year, and everyone's happy that the foreign scene will get real promotion. then they just pull the rug out from under us, and we are left with 8 NA slots. pretty freakin' lame. i understand the viewership isn't there, but it seemed like Blizzard had enough cash to prop up WCS on its own. i guess they pussied out, and here we are
On November 02 2014 09:21 SNSeigifried wrote: 2k for challenger :O
Great news, I was worried about that, but they did it right .
So if the 32 players that fail to get into Premiere still get 2k that will be 64K for challenger which leaves 136k for premiere. I think that's pretty much perfect distribution.
I think the prize distribution is the same in top32 except winner gets 30k instead 25k. Right now is 131k for premier league.
Right I forgot the Prize money was 131k, I did my math with 100k, oops . So that would leave 198k for Premiere league, Kim Phan confirmed that the money stays the same and none of it goes to Korea. So the prize money for Premiere league is insane now.
Very unlikely that none of it goes to korea. WCS KR had 170k and now 175k (GSL and SpoTV combined) each season. WCS NA and WCS EU had 140k each season. Now with WCS unified you have 275k per season. 275-64=211k for top32.
edit: If you ask why suddenly140 and not 131. top48=140,6k and top32=131k. place 33-48 get $600, so 16*0,6=9,6k. 140,6-9,6=131k.
I'd hate to be "that guy," but... every time I see a T vs Z in SC 2, I'm reminded that SC 2 has a problem. Firstly, I just can't help but to think "god, I wish this was a BW T vs Z." I try to enjoy the game for what it is, but then I notice every game seems to be max vs max with "infinite" resources banked. I get that big maps play a role, but in my games, on normal maps, I notice I'm usually maxed, too.
Whenever you're able to max so easily, the game seems like it's about compositions and which race has the better late game, more so than who is the better/more skillful player. Until the game allows for more Classic moments with his oracle, I think a bigger focus should be on non Koreans and growing their scene, rather than simply offering more opportunities for the best Koreans, when the game doesn't allow them to wow the fans, anyways. Korean fans would rather watch Bisu play ladder games in BW.
As a viewer, there is a big difference between thinking, yeah I guess that guy is better than me, than thinking "jesus, I could never do that. How did he do that?" Until this game is more of the latter than the former, no one cares if Koreans are better. The likes of Naniwa, Stephano and Idra, along with the legend of Flash are going to be the driving forces.
If you're not willing to cater to the non Koreans, because "they're not good enough," then you may as well be the blame for the game being in its current state. The "best personalities" might not always be within this extremely limited number of spots. You'd think SC 2 was more of a lottery than a sport with these changes. People within SC 2 need to get off their high horse and realize that the game has gone down hill, and unless the decision makers are new on the job, they have been a big reason for it.
Ultimately, what "scares" me the most is, outside of P vs P, I think I would rather watch pro Nexus Wars. I really have to wonder what would get more viewers, given equal exposure hype. Competitive Nexus Wars or pro SC 2? Without free to play, I really don't know. It scares me to think how close the numbers would be, and, really, without any non lottery like incentive in SC 2, I'd be open to SC 2 being replaced by nexus wars. I'd probably enjoy it a lot more. I'm serious. These games look more like a worse version of nexus wars than a proper Starcraft game. I'd love to see the Korean pros form Nexus wars teams.
On November 03 2014 03:53 playa wrote: I'd hate to be "that guy," but... every time I see a T vs Z in SC 2, I'm reminded that SC 2 has a problem. Firstly, I just can't help but to think "god, I wish this was a BW T vs Z." I try to enjoy the game for what it is, but then I notice every game seems to be max vs max with "infinite" resources banked. I get that big maps play a role, but in my games, on normal maps, I notice I'm usually maxed, too.
Whenever you're able to max so easily, the game seems like it's about compositions and which race has the better late game, more so than who is the better/more skillful player. Until the game allows for more Classic moments with his oracle, I think a bigger focus should be on non Koreans and growing their scene, rather than simply offering more opportunities for the best Koreans, when the game doesn't allow them to wow the fans, anyways. Korean fans would rather watch Bisu play ladder games in BW.
As a viewer, there is a big difference between thinking, yeah I guess that guy is better than me, than thinking "jesus, I could never do that. How did he do that?" Until this game is more of the latter than the former, no one cares if Koreans are better. The likes of Naniwa, Stephano and Idra, along with the legend of Flash are going to be the driving forces.
If you're not willing to cater to the non Koreans, because "they're not good enough," then you may as well be the blame for the game being in its current state. The "best personalities" might not always be within this extremely limited number of spots. You'd think SC 2 was more of a lottery than a sport with these changes. People within SC 2 need to get off their high horse and realize that the game has gone down hill, and unless the decision makers are new on the job, they have been a big reason for it.
Ultimately, what "scares" me the most is, outside of P vs P, I think I would rather watch pro Nexus Wars. I really have to wonder what would get more viewers, given equal exposure hype. Competitive Nexus Wars or pro SC 2? Without free to play, I really don't know. It scares me to think how close the numbers would be, and, really, without any non lottery like incentive in SC 2, I'd be open to SC 2 being replaced by nexus wars. I'd probably enjoy it a lot more. I'm serious. These games look more like a worse version of nexus wars than a proper Starcraft game. I'd love to see the Korean pros form Nexus wars teams.
I'm going to guess you didn't watch Blizzcon yesterday
Actually, Taeja vs soO is on the rebroadcast right now. Do yourself a favor and turn it on http://www.twitch.tv/wcs
On November 03 2014 03:53 playa wrote: I'd hate to be "that guy," but... every time I see a T vs Z in SC 2, I'm reminded that SC 2 has a problem. Firstly, I just can't help but to think "god, I wish this was a BW T vs Z." I try to enjoy the game for what it is, but then I notice every game seems to be max vs max with "infinite" resources banked. I get that big maps play a role, but in my games, on normal maps, I notice I'm usually maxed, too.
Whenever you're able to max so easily, the game seems like it's about compositions and which race has the better late game, more so than who is the better/more skillful player. Until the game allows for more Classic moments with his oracle, I think a bigger focus should be on non Koreans and growing their scene, rather than simply offering more opportunities for the best Koreans, when the game doesn't allow them to wow the fans, anyways. Korean fans would rather watch Bisu play ladder games in BW.
As a viewer, there is a big difference between thinking, yeah I guess that guy is better than me, than thinking "jesus, I could never do that. How did he do that?" Until this game is more of the latter than the former, no one cares if Koreans are better. The likes of Naniwa, Stephano and Idra, along with the legend of Flash are going to be the driving forces.
If you're not willing to cater to the non Koreans, because "they're not good enough," then you may as well be the blame for the game being in its current state. The "best personalities" might not always be within this extremely limited number of spots. You'd think SC 2 was more of a lottery than a sport with these changes. People within SC 2 need to get off their high horse and realize that the game has gone down hill, and unless the decision makers are new on the job, they have been a big reason for it.
Ultimately, what "scares" me the most is, outside of P vs P, I think I would rather watch pro Nexus Wars. I really have to wonder what would get more viewers, given equal exposure hype. Competitive Nexus Wars or pro SC 2? Without free to play, I really don't know. It scares me to think how close the numbers would be, and, really, without any non lottery like incentive in SC 2, I'd be open to SC 2 being replaced by nexus wars. I'd probably enjoy it a lot more. I'm serious. These games look more like a worse version of nexus wars than a proper Starcraft game. I'd love to see the Korean pros form Nexus wars teams.
I'm going to guess you didn't watch Blizzcon yesterday
Actually, Taeja vs soO is on the rebroadcast right now. Do yourself a favor and turn it on http://www.twitch.tv/wcs
I did watch it. That's the problem. I wish I hadn't seen it. Max vs max, max vs max. An all-in not working versus the greediest build in the game. It makes you think... maybe that's part of why games end up max vs max... why even bother taking the risk of trying to kill your opponent. I'm going to assume you haven't watched much T vs Z in BW. There are things to miss from BW. There's nothing that seems like a positive addition in SC 2. Only missing things. That's my opinion. But, it's an honest one.
On November 03 2014 03:53 playa wrote: I'd hate to be "that guy," but... every time I see a T vs Z in SC 2, I'm reminded that SC 2 has a problem. Firstly, I just can't help but to think "god, I wish this was a BW T vs Z." I try to enjoy the game for what it is, but then I notice every game seems to be max vs max with "infinite" resources banked. I get that big maps play a role, but in my games, on normal maps, I notice I'm usually maxed, too.
Whenever you're able to max so easily, the game seems like it's about compositions and which race has the better late game, more so than who is the better/more skillful player. Until the game allows for more Classic moments with his oracle, I think a bigger focus should be on non Koreans and growing their scene, rather than simply offering more opportunities for the best Koreans, when the game doesn't allow them to wow the fans, anyways. Korean fans would rather watch Bisu play ladder games in BW.
As a viewer, there is a big difference between thinking, yeah I guess that guy is better than me, than thinking "jesus, I could never do that. How did he do that?" Until this game is more of the latter than the former, no one cares if Koreans are better. The likes of Naniwa, Stephano and Idra, along with the legend of Flash are going to be the driving forces.
If you're not willing to cater to the non Koreans, because "they're not good enough," then you may as well be the blame for the game being in its current state. The "best personalities" might not always be within this extremely limited number of spots. You'd think SC 2 was more of a lottery than a sport with these changes. People within SC 2 need to get off their high horse and realize that the game has gone down hill, and unless the decision makers are new on the job, they have been a big reason for it.
Ultimately, what "scares" me the most is, outside of P vs P, I think I would rather watch pro Nexus Wars. I really have to wonder what would get more viewers, given equal exposure hype. Competitive Nexus Wars or pro SC 2? Without free to play, I really don't know. It scares me to think how close the numbers would be, and, really, without any non lottery like incentive in SC 2, I'd be open to SC 2 being replaced by nexus wars. I'd probably enjoy it a lot more. I'm serious. These games look more like a worse version of nexus wars than a proper Starcraft game. I'd love to see the Korean pros form Nexus wars teams.
I'm going to guess you didn't watch Blizzcon yesterday
Actually, Taeja vs soO is on the rebroadcast right now. Do yourself a favor and turn it on http://www.twitch.tv/wcs
I did watch it. That's the problem. I wish I hadn't seen it. Max vs max, max vs max. An all-in not working versus the greediest build in the game. It makes you think... maybe that's part of why games end up max vs max... why even bother taking the risk of trying to kill your opponent. I'm going to assume you haven't watched much T vs Z in BW. There are things to miss from BW. There's nothing that seems like a positive addition in SC 2. Only missing things. That's my opinion. But, it's an honest one.
You are wrong about that, and considering the recommended game poll for game 3 looked like this:
Poll: Recommend TaeJa vs soO Game 3?
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (200)
92%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (8)
4%
★★★ - Good game (4)
2%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (4)
2%
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
1%
218 total votes
Your vote: Recommend TaeJa vs soO Game 3?
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year
Maybe you're the one with the problem, and this game just isn't for you. It's different from Brood War but It can be just as exciting. If you don't like it you can always watch Brood War.
On November 03 2014 03:53 playa wrote: I'd hate to be "that guy," but... every time I see a T vs Z in SC 2, I'm reminded that SC 2 has a problem. Firstly, I just can't help but to think "god, I wish this was a BW T vs Z." I try to enjoy the game for what it is, but then I notice every game seems to be max vs max with "infinite" resources banked. I get that big maps play a role, but in my games, on normal maps, I notice I'm usually maxed, too.
Whenever you're able to max so easily, the game seems like it's about compositions and which race has the better late game, more so than who is the better/more skillful player. Until the game allows for more Classic moments with his oracle, I think a bigger focus should be on non Koreans and growing their scene, rather than simply offering more opportunities for the best Koreans, when the game doesn't allow them to wow the fans, anyways. Korean fans would rather watch Bisu play ladder games in BW.
As a viewer, there is a big difference between thinking, yeah I guess that guy is better than me, than thinking "jesus, I could never do that. How did he do that?" Until this game is more of the latter than the former, no one cares if Koreans are better. The likes of Naniwa, Stephano and Idra, along with the legend of Flash are going to be the driving forces.
If you're not willing to cater to the non Koreans, because "they're not good enough," then you may as well be the blame for the game being in its current state. The "best personalities" might not always be within this extremely limited number of spots. You'd think SC 2 was more of a lottery than a sport with these changes. People within SC 2 need to get off their high horse and realize that the game has gone down hill, and unless the decision makers are new on the job, they have been a big reason for it.
Ultimately, what "scares" me the most is, outside of P vs P, I think I would rather watch pro Nexus Wars. I really have to wonder what would get more viewers, given equal exposure hype. Competitive Nexus Wars or pro SC 2? Without free to play, I really don't know. It scares me to think how close the numbers would be, and, really, without any non lottery like incentive in SC 2, I'd be open to SC 2 being replaced by nexus wars. I'd probably enjoy it a lot more. I'm serious. These games look more like a worse version of nexus wars than a proper Starcraft game. I'd love to see the Korean pros form Nexus wars teams.
I'm going to guess you didn't watch Blizzcon yesterday
Actually, Taeja vs soO is on the rebroadcast right now. Do yourself a favor and turn it on http://www.twitch.tv/wcs
I did watch it. That's the problem. I wish I hadn't seen it. Max vs max, max vs max. An all-in not working versus the greediest build in the game. It makes you think... maybe that's part of why games end up max vs max... why even bother taking the risk of trying to kill your opponent. I'm going to assume you haven't watched much T vs Z in BW. There are things to miss from BW. There's nothing that seems like a positive addition in SC 2. Only missing things. That's my opinion. But, it's an honest one.
You are wrong about that, and considering the recommended game poll for game 3 looked like this:
Poll: Recommend TaeJa vs soO Game 3?
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (200)
92%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (8)
4%
★★★ - Good game (4)
2%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (4)
2%
★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
1%
218 total votes
Your vote: Recommend TaeJa vs soO Game 3?
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year
Maybe you're the one with the problem, and this game just isn't for you. It's different from Brood War but It can be just as exciting. If you don't like it you can always watch Brood War.
Yeah, well guess what, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement for SC 2. I would have voted the same and still felt the same way. Maybe if it included in all of starcraft (BW), then it could mean something. The Zest vs Life swarm host game. I could vote that as maybe being one of the better swarm host games, yet it still would be hard to tell whether that means it is worth watching or not.
Like I said, if you don't like it, you can quit. But I'm tired of reading this crap about brood war vs SC2 in 2014, stop beating a dead horse and get with the program or move on.
On November 03 2014 04:13 Dodgin wrote: Like I said, if you don't like it, you can quit. But I'm tired of reading this crap about brood war vs SC2 in 2014, stop beating a dead horse and get with the program or move on.
Agreed here. If you prefer BW, well I believe the BW pro scene still exists. If you'd like SC2 being BW2, then you're free to try to organize a serious community around SC2 : BW. But coming here and saying that SC2 is bad is of no use at all
On November 03 2014 04:13 Dodgin wrote: Like I said, if you don't like it, you can quit. But I'm tired of reading this crap about brood war vs SC2 in 2014, stop beating a dead horse and get with the program or move on.
I think what he is trying to say is that aside from a large army count type of fights being good to watch, there's virtually no other strategy. I mean, the early game is pretty nonexistent right now. Early pushes can be held off very easily by professional gamers if they execute well and know what they are doing. But then I never watched BW so I have no idea if my post makes any sense or not.
For me, while that game is easily one of the best all year, it would be nice to have a diverse TvZ matchup where it is "less predictable" on how the matchup will unfold. Gone are the days where you can do a silly 1 base 6 rax non-upgraded Marines and attempt a win there because of the constant rallying while Zerg defends and tries to win by wearing out the Terran. The whole game has shifted to a macro mid and late-game type of play.
On November 03 2014 04:13 Dodgin wrote: Like I said, if you don't like it, you can quit. But I'm tired of reading this crap about brood war vs SC2 in 2014, stop beating a dead horse and get with the program or move on.
Agreed here. If you prefer BW, well I believe the BW pro scene still exists. If you'd like SC2 being BW2, then you're free to try to organize a serious community around SC2 : BW. But coming here and saying that SC2 is bad is of no use at all
It actually is of use. Because, more times than not, you come to find out the people who are most into SC 2 are the ones who have never watched BW before. I'm telling you why I think even the best SC 2 games are boring. Not everyone has the benefit of having never seen BW before.
Moving on, when you have these stream numbers, means improving something. I've been trying to learn to stomach watching this game for 2 years now. It's not easy -- It's really hard. I'm coming around some, on some of the matchups, but at the end of the day, too many games are max vs max, and it happens too soon. I feel like I'm watching nexus wars, but I'm not. It makes me wish I was watching nexus wars. In BW, you were amazed because the skill ceiling was so high. Now, my jaw drops when I see a Zerg setting up flanks. That's not good.
When the numbers are like this, sadly suggesting a nexus war league seems more productive than saying "wow, that was amazing." If it were truly that amazing, more people would have tuned in. If you liked these games, you'd probably love nexus wars even more, lol.
On WCS, the "rumored" 2k for challenger league is a big plus. And, as a viewer, I do think uniting both EU and NA is a great thing. I do think those are very positive changes. So, some good is happening. But, until there is free to play, you can't completely ignore the game itself.
As for BW, I have watched some recently. It's hard to do, though, when you still play SC 2, because it just makes SC 2 that much harder to watch. I personally think SC 2 is actually a more balanced game, it's just the skill ceiling was so high in BW, that you always had a chance to overcome imbalances if you were good enough.
As someone who played BW on Korean ladders and now SC 2 on Korean ladders, it's kinda laughable to put Koreans on a pedestal in this game. For as much as they play, the difference should be much bigger... something is wrong. SC 2 offers a real chance for foreigners to be even better than Koreans, given a proper incentive for enough non Koreans to practice like it mattered.
On November 03 2014 04:13 Dodgin wrote: Like I said, if you don't like it, you can quit. But I'm tired of reading this crap about brood war vs SC2 in 2014, stop beating a dead horse and get with the program or move on.
I think what he is trying to say is that aside from a large army count type of fights being good to watch, there's virtually no other strategy. I mean, the early game is pretty nonexistent right now. Early pushes can be held off very easily by professional gamers if they execute well and know what they are doing. But then I never watched BW so I have no idea if my post makes any sense or not.
For me, while that game is easily one of the best all year, it would be nice to have a diverse TvZ matchup where it is "less predictable" on how the matchup will unfold. Gone are the days where you can do a silly 1 base 6 rax non-upgraded Marines and attempt a win there because of the constant rallying while Zerg defends and tries to win by wearing out the Terran. The whole game has shifted to a macro mid and late-game type of play.
early game nonexistent? holy crap guys It's like you don't even play or watch this game but you still feel the need to comment on it.
On November 03 2014 04:13 Dodgin wrote: Like I said, if you don't like it, you can quit. But I'm tired of reading this crap about brood war vs SC2 in 2014, stop beating a dead horse and get with the program or move on.
I think what he is trying to say is that aside from a large army count type of fights being good to watch, there's virtually no other strategy. I mean, the early game is pretty nonexistent right now. Early pushes can be held off very easily by professional gamers if they execute well and know what they are doing. But then I never watched BW so I have no idea if my post makes any sense or not.
For me, while that game is easily one of the best all year, it would be nice to have a diverse TvZ matchup where it is "less predictable" on how the matchup will unfold. Gone are the days where you can do a silly 1 base 6 rax non-upgraded Marines and attempt a win there because of the constant rallying while Zerg defends and tries to win by wearing out the Terran. The whole game has shifted to a macro mid and late-game type of play.
early game nonexistent? holy crap guys It's like you don't even play or watch this game but you still feel the need to comment on it.
Ok TvZ, what early game is there? And you know I play and watch the game religiously... It's mainly some sort of fast CC into Hellion pressure.
On November 03 2014 04:13 Dodgin wrote: Like I said, if you don't like it, you can quit. But I'm tired of reading this crap about brood war vs SC2 in 2014, stop beating a dead horse and get with the program or move on.
I think what he is trying to say is that aside from a large army count type of fights being good to watch, there's virtually no other strategy. I mean, the early game is pretty nonexistent right now. Early pushes can be held off very easily by professional gamers if they execute well and know what they are doing. But then I never watched BW so I have no idea if my post makes any sense or not.
For me, while that game is easily one of the best all year, it would be nice to have a diverse TvZ matchup where it is "less predictable" on how the matchup will unfold. Gone are the days where you can do a silly 1 base 6 rax non-upgraded Marines and attempt a win there because of the constant rallying while Zerg defends and tries to win by wearing out the Terran. The whole game has shifted to a macro mid and late-game type of play.
early game nonexistent? holy crap guys It's like you don't even play or watch this game but you still feel the need to comment on it.
Ok TvZ, what early game is there? And you know I play and watch the game religiously... It's mainly some sort of fast CC into Hellion pressure.
I'm not going to bother listing off the 10's of all ins or early pressure builds from both races, if you're expecting some kind of " early game " when both players are playing greedy macro then I don't know what to tell you.
On November 02 2014 09:21 SNSeigifried wrote: 2k for challenger :O
Great news, I was worried about that, but they did it right .
So if the 32 players that fail to get into Premiere still get 2k that will be 64K for challenger which leaves 136k for premiere. I think that's pretty much perfect distribution.
I think the prize distribution is the same in top32 except winner gets 30k instead 25k. Right now is 131k for premier league.
Right I forgot the Prize money was 131k, I did my math with 100k, oops . So that would leave 198k for Premiere league, Kim Phan confirmed that the money stays the same and none of it goes to Korea. So the prize money for Premiere league is insane now.
Very unlikely that none of it goes to korea. WCS KR had 170k and now 175k (GSL and SpoTV combined) each season. WCS NA and WCS EU had 140k each season. Now with WCS unified you have 275k per season. 275-64=211k for top32.
edit: If you ask why suddenly140 and not 131. top48=140,6k and top32=131k. place 33-48 get $600, so 16*0,6=9,6k. 140,6-9,6=131k.
Ah thanks for the correct math, forgot the challenger money. Well whether nothing goes to Korea or 5k each seaon go to Korea doesn't really make a diffence tbh. 275K each season, if you consider that foreigners only made 114.6K in WCS S3 this year, that's great news! Especially since they'll pay top64.
From what i got from the grand finals interview, the prize money is the same, but is more distributed. In other words, with the unified WCS its actually easier to get your hands on that e-sports prize money (well, not for Koreans). I suppose even RO8 will be a good sum? And the competition will only be slightly stronger with many koreans moving to GSL... The slot distribution looks ok, but i cannot help feeling that a qualifier is more fair.
On November 03 2014 05:21 ( bush wrote: I don't know how can anyone complain about TvZ right now... that matchup is perfectly fine if you compare it with TvP.
If you ask me, I never liked TvZ in HotS. Its all about hit or miss from wm & banelings. Generally too much units in TvZ with many marines & lings.
On November 03 2014 04:13 Dodgin wrote: Like I said, if you don't like it, you can quit. But I'm tired of reading this crap about brood war vs SC2 in 2014, stop beating a dead horse and get with the program or move on.
I think what he is trying to say is that aside from a large army count type of fights being good to watch, there's virtually no other strategy. I mean, the early game is pretty nonexistent right now. Early pushes can be held off very easily by professional gamers if they execute well and know what they are doing. But then I never watched BW so I have no idea if my post makes any sense or not.
For me, while that game is easily one of the best all year, it would be nice to have a diverse TvZ matchup where it is "less predictable" on how the matchup will unfold. Gone are the days where you can do a silly 1 base 6 rax non-upgraded Marines and attempt a win there because of the constant rallying while Zerg defends and tries to win by wearing out the Terran. The whole game has shifted to a macro mid and late-game type of play.
early game nonexistent? holy crap guys It's like you don't even play or watch this game but you still feel the need to comment on it.
Ok TvZ, what early game is there? And you know I play and watch the game religiously... It's mainly some sort of fast CC into Hellion pressure.
I'm not going to bother listing off the 10's of all ins or early pressure builds from both races, if you're expecting some kind of " early game " when both players are playing greedy macro then I don't know what to tell you.
The builds are available, like a 10 pool then resume Droning for example, but they are rarely done. Of course there are reasons for a Zerg to play standard instead of 10 pool or even 15 Pool 15 Hatch or whatever, but I would just like the game to be a bit more diverse with the maps encouraging such diversity.
On November 03 2014 02:51 TheDwf wrote: I love Blizzard, I love the game, but it's obviously bad, we need more, look at yesterday, Taeja, Life, soO are there but where is the show? Where is the crowd? Where is the money? Everything is cheap, 5 years later... WCS should be the ultimate tournament, the most imposing, the most beautiful... Even the schedule was not good (yesterday it started at 6pm to 8 am for EU, after 3 am for EU we were 35k...) and we all know that EU is watching Starcraft more than US... Really I mean so many guys paid to think and no one makes the right call... I really love Blizzard and Starcraft 2 but no, it's not a good little step, nobody has time, Blizzard needs do step it up for the community, not buy time like that."
The game is fine.
Blizzard does not know how to create excitement around a competitive live event. Blizzard does not know how to "create stars". It is a fine art that few have mastered. I do not think Blizzard is even focused on "creating stars".
Its ironic that the best event promotion and star creation occurred when Blizzard basically surrendered its rights to Brood War and several South Korean promoters were given carte blanche due to Blizzard's disinterest and total focus on WoW.
On November 03 2014 02:51 TheDwf wrote: I love Blizzard, I love the game, but it's obviously bad, we need more, look at yesterday, Taeja, Life, soO are there but where is the show? Where is the crowd? Where is the money? Everything is cheap, 5 years later... WCS should be the ultimate tournament, the most imposing, the most beautiful... Even the schedule was not good (yesterday it started at 6pm to 8 am for EU, after 3 am for EU we were 35k...) and we all know that EU is watching Starcraft more than US... Really I mean so many guys paid to think and no one makes the right call... I really love Blizzard and Starcraft 2 but no, it's not a good little step, nobody has time, Blizzard needs do step it up for the community, not buy time like that."
The game is fine.
Blizzard does not know how to create excitement around a competitive live event. Blizzard does not know how to "create stars". It is a fine art that few have mastered. I do not think Blizzard is even focused on "creating stars".
Its ironic that the best event promotion and star creation occurred when Blizzard basically surrendered its rights to Brood War and several South Korean promoters were given carte blanche due to Blizzard's disinterest and total focus on WoW.
On November 03 2014 03:29 creamyturtle wrote: well this sucks. they announce we will have region-locked WCS this year, and everyone's happy that the foreign scene will get real promotion. then they just pull the rug out from under us, and we are left with 8 NA slots. pretty freakin' lame. i understand the viewership isn't there, but it seemed like Blizzard had enough cash to prop up WCS on its own. i guess they pussied out, and here we are
What?
Why would Blizzard fund a tournament with a prize pool of $100,000, when it gets a petty viewership of 5000-15000 on most days.
I just hate people blame Blizzard for this... This is purely because there is not enough popularity to support tournaments like these.
They could have made it a 64 players tournament since they are merging so many regions together. Because here basically at least 32 players will have to find something else to do.
Playing SC 2 as a non Korean is a horrible experience. I'm not into LoL, but I've stumbled upon "road to worlds." They make playing the game seem cool. They make it seem rewarding. Even though you got the sense that Koreans are way better at the game, they still have a lot of fans who could care less. In SC 2, it's just like omg, why aren't you better than this guy who was a pro in BW, playing 24/7, despite only enabling a small amount of non Koreans to even try to play full time.
The best non Korean Toss player pretty much quit due to swarm hosts, and no one at Blizzard even wants to talk about the unit as if there is a problem. It could be the worst unit ever created in a RTS and all you get is fluff, everything is good talk. There's no accountability.
Why would anyone want to play SC 2 when they could play a popular team game? I mean, what is WCS "NA" now? 16 paying spots in NA. And, we still have to pretend that some Koreans are foreigners. So, in reality, it's more like 13 spots. And, since they do nothing about hacking, it's closer to 10 spots for legit players. What is that, two teams qualifying in LoL?
Without free to play, it's hard to feel like there is any hope.
On November 03 2014 06:42 playa wrote: Playing SC 2 as a non Korean is a horrible experience. I'm not into LoL, but I've stumbled upon "road to worlds." They make playing the game seem cool. They make it seem rewarding. Even though you got the sense that Koreans are way better at the game, they still have a lot of fans who could care less. In SC 2, it's just like omg, why aren't you better than this guy who was a pro in BW, playing 24/7, despite only enabling a small amount of non Koreans to even try to play full time.
The best non Korean Toss player pretty much quit due to swarm hosts, and no one at Blizzard even wants to talk about the unit as if there is a problem. It could be the worst unit ever created in a RTS and all you get is fluff, everything is good talk. There's no accountability.
Why would anyone want to play SC 2 when they could play a popular team game? I mean, what is WCS "NA" now? 16 paying spots in NA. And, we still have to pretend that some Koreans are foreigners. So, in reality, it's more like 15 spots. And, since they do nothing about hacking, it's closer to 10 spots for legit players. What is that, two teams qualifying in LoL?
Without free to play, it's hard to feel like there is any hope.
yeah, with the viewership where it is at this point, they might as well switch to F2P. for LOTV would be nice
On November 03 2014 06:42 playa wrote: Playing SC 2 as a non Korean is a horrible experience. I'm not into LoL, but I've stumbled upon "road to worlds." They make playing the game seem cool. They make it seem rewarding. Even though you got the sense that Koreans are way better at the game, they still have a lot of fans who could care less. In SC 2, it's just like omg, why aren't you better than this guy who was a pro in BW, playing 24/7, despite only enabling a small amount of non Koreans to even try to play full time.
The best non Korean Toss player pretty much quit due to swarm hosts, and no one at Blizzard even wants to talk about the unit as if there is a problem. It could be the worst unit ever created in a RTS and all you get is fluff, everything is good talk. There's no accountability.
Why would anyone want to play SC 2 when they could play a popular team game? I mean, what is WCS "NA" now? 16 paying spots in NA. And, we still have to pretend that some Koreans are foreigners. So, in reality, it's more like 15 spots. And, since they do nothing about hacking, it's closer to 10 spots for legit players. What is that, two teams qualifying in LoL?
Without free to play, it's hard to feel like there is any hope.
thats why they added swarm hosts. because if both players make swarm host then it looks like a moba and new players will be drawn to sc2. we might as well call for the removal of david kim and hire avilo as the balance designer while we're at it and pay TSM to stream 4v4 teams on the ladder and ban all koreans from competition. it is best for the popularity of starcraft.
On November 03 2014 07:03 Doodsmack wrote: It is pretty funny that they teased us with region lock and then halved the number of spots available for foreigners lol.
I don't see the issue.
It's not like I can think of more than 8 NA players who play SC2 for more than 5 hours a day. I don't think the community is able to sustain 64 players either, so nothing is lost.
On November 03 2014 07:03 Doodsmack wrote: It is pretty funny that they teased us with region lock and then halved the number of spots available for foreigners lol.
In practice, this change does not hurt foreigners. Because the money paid out in WCS has doubled, one season in Premier now pays as much (or more, assuming distribution stays the same) as two seasons did this year. With the removal of essentially all Koreans but three or four, more spots are open for foreigners to make it into Premier. It may look like a net loss on paper, but unless a lot of Koreans manage to secure visas such as Violet's (and they won't), the foreign scene will receive more money through WCS in 2015 than in 2014.
On November 03 2014 07:03 Doodsmack wrote: It is pretty funny that they teased us with region lock and then halved the number of spots available for foreigners lol.
In practice, this change does not hurt foreigners. Because the money paid out in WCS has doubled, one season in Premier now pays as much (or more, assuming distribution stays the same) as two seasons did this year. With the removal of essentially all Koreans but three or four, more spots are open for foreigners to make it into Premier. It may look like a net loss on paper, but unless a lot of Koreans manage to secure visas such as Violet's (and they won't), the foreign scene will receive more money through WCS in 2015 than in 2014.
Exactly this, a lot more money even. Around 280K are up for grabs every season, while foreigners didn't even make 120k in WCS S3 this year. So even if Koreans like Polt and Violet were to take 50k, foreigners will still receive more than 110k more than before.
As Balloon has a U.S. Student Visa, we gonna see the first WCS Random Champion.
But i still dislike this system so much:
In 2013 and 2014 there was a development, mostly in Europe, that the players came to the audiance: While Blizzard aimed for a world wide audience, the players where mostly based in korea ( and the action with its 6 or more gsl per year ). Then the WCS System changed it, Koreans came to Europe from the start of 2013, because they could not participe in WCS EU due to the lag between Korea and EU. Due to the lag these koreans did their daily training on the Europeen server, or at least some, wheen they did not want to train with the big pings. The competition raised in Europe, the foreigners could become better and better due to the daily competition with the EU-Koreans. While in 2012 Huks and Naniwas had to go to Korea, leave their natural audiance to competete with the strong players, strong players where now where the audience was. Players like Snute or Bunny could become top players without living and bootcamping long time in korea, they could stay with their fans and become better. Shure these Koreans took out a large potion of money of the Europeen scene, without them there were no pressure to become better, to train harder and to raise the gaminglevel of the foreigners. Now all these Koreans get a hard Bitchslap. "You left you home to be with your fans, to play where the global audience is and to raise the competition, now we have dropping viewers because you do not do enough HÜPE, get the fuck out of here"
Whats gonna happen now: While in the new WCS foreigners who dedicate only a small time per week for SC II ( but have a decent skill lvl ) can take out at least 2k$ in the challanger 3 time per season, while the strong players lose a lot of competition and if they want to become stronger, they have to go back to korea instead. WCS will left with a hand full of smart koreans who have the proper visa ( which is not that hard if you trick the system for example here in germany because of the student visa ) and these smart koreans gonna play it out in Ro4 or Ro8 season. But when these players live in NA, they still play on Kr Server, they still do not train with europeens. And when we are honest, even NA Players do not train on NA Server if their ping is okay.
I am mostly talking about the changes that the europeen scene will have, shure it was not okay that players like Taeja or Pigbaby could just play all games till the offline games from korea, book a flight and pick up a large stack of eazy money while tech. living in Korea the whole year. But this was not the case in Europe and the Europeens need Koreans to become stronger and have the competition. Maybe we will see again a foreigner at WCS Finals 2015, but he will get screwed again, when he can not train during the year with stronger players. And that is the thing that makes you stronger, playing against stronger players, learning of your mistakes and their gains.
Now we will have 2015 and a refocus on Korea like 2011 and 2012. No more very strong players in WCS, but Korean Events during the week start when people work, go to school or the university. And for the NAs it is even worse with starts between 2am and 6am. Blizzard wants a global audience, but they will not achieve it with sending the stronger player back to the small asien nation which has by far the best players who deliver the best games during the wrong times.
If i had to change something, i would have forced the players to stay where they compete in the WCS system, but accepting all forms of visa except the standard tourist visa and enforced every competer in WCS to speak english at least acceptable for interviews. Thus we wouldnt have the akward translation situations anymore in WCS EU and NA, no travel masters and we could enforce the players to play on the server of their WCS Regions. Without the languege gap, the HÜPE could be created, the koreans would be more except by the fans. And yeah, no more finals in front of 20 men in small flats called "ESL Studios". Ask IEM Katoviece how to do finals.
And one last note for the visa thing and a hint for koreans: You are allowed to play with your student visa. In my University in Germany you could start your studies, never write any test, never visit anything there and get dropped out after two years. If you have your high school degree, you can start studies here, catch your student visa at the german embassy, play in WCS 2 years, win alot of money against easy opponents and then drop out of university and leave Europe again. Sorry but i hate this new WCS system so much, that i hope it gets abused hard.
On November 03 2014 07:03 Doodsmack wrote: It is pretty funny that they teased us with region lock and then halved the number of spots available for foreigners lol.
In practice, this change does not hurt foreigners. Because the money paid out in WCS has doubled, one season in Premier now pays as much (or more, assuming distribution stays the same) as two seasons did this year. With the removal of essentially all Koreans but three or four, more spots are open for foreigners to make it into Premier. It may look like a net loss on paper, but unless a lot of Koreans manage to secure visas such as Violet's (and they won't), the foreign scene will receive more money through WCS in 2015 than in 2014.
The prize money thing is definitely good, but it's less additional spots available in premier than the initial region lock tease would have led us to believe.
On November 03 2014 07:03 Doodsmack wrote: It is pretty funny that they teased us with region lock and then halved the number of spots available for foreigners lol.
In practice, this change does not hurt foreigners. Because the money paid out in WCS has doubled, one season in Premier now pays as much (or more, assuming distribution stays the same) as two seasons did this year. With the removal of essentially all Koreans but three or four, more spots are open for foreigners to make it into Premier. It may look like a net loss on paper, but unless a lot of Koreans manage to secure visas such as Violet's (and they won't), the foreign scene will receive more money through WCS in 2015 than in 2014.
While the money, which is very very important, is helpful the amount of WCS points for foreigners went down. If I counted correctly there were 38 foreigners between the two regions (and Sen who arguably would have been in premier had he not met scarlett) in premier league. If the point structure remains the same, which I don't remember seeing yet, then that means that 6-7 foreigners of this season wouldn't have gotten the substantial amount of WCS points that being in premier results in.
I can see this current structure making it even harder for foreigners to get into Blizzcon at the end of the year. With only one region of WCS there will be a few foreigners with a large chunk of WCS points, but then a drop off because DH/IEM/ect are still going to have mostly koreans gaining the high number of points.
On November 03 2014 07:03 Doodsmack wrote: It is pretty funny that they teased us with region lock and then halved the number of spots available for foreigners lol.
In practice, this change does not hurt foreigners. Because the money paid out in WCS has doubled, one season in Premier now pays as much (or more, assuming distribution stays the same) as two seasons did this year. With the removal of essentially all Koreans but three or four, more spots are open for foreigners to make it into Premier. It may look like a net loss on paper, but unless a lot of Koreans manage to secure visas such as Violet's (and they won't), the foreign scene will receive more money through WCS in 2015 than in 2014.
The prize money thing is definitely good, but it's less additional spots available in premier than the initial region lock tease would have led us to believe.
ok so? i'm not seeing how that matters. prize money is more important for foreign talent to develop than the "prestige" of being in a league called premier. you need to eat and pay your bills, then you can worry about whether you can put "premier" on your list of accomplishments
On November 03 2014 07:03 Doodsmack wrote: It is pretty funny that they teased us with region lock and then halved the number of spots available for foreigners lol.
In practice, this change does not hurt foreigners. Because the money paid out in WCS has doubled, one season in Premier now pays as much (or more, assuming distribution stays the same) as two seasons did this year. With the removal of essentially all Koreans but three or four, more spots are open for foreigners to make it into Premier. It may look like a net loss on paper, but unless a lot of Koreans manage to secure visas such as Violet's (and they won't), the foreign scene will receive more money through WCS in 2015 than in 2014.
While the money, which is very very important, is helpful the amount of WCS points for foreigners went down. If I counted correctly there were 38 foreigners between the two regions (and Sen who arguably would have been in premier had he not met scarlett) in premier league. If the point structure remains the same, which I don't remember seeing yet, then that means that 6-7 foreigners of this season wouldn't have gotten the substantial amount of WCS points that being in premier results in.
I can see this current structure making it even harder for foreigners to get into Blizzcon at the end of the year. With only one region of WCS there will be a few foreigners with a large chunk of WCS points, but then a drop off because DH/IEM/ect are still going to have mostly koreans gaining the high number of points.
foreigners making it to blizzcon shouldn't even be an issue because the number of foreigners who even had a remote chance is way smaller than the number of premier spots
On November 03 2014 02:51 TheDwf wrote: I love Blizzard, I love the game, but it's obviously bad, we need more, look at yesterday, Taeja, Life, soO are there but where is the show? Where is the crowd? Where is the money? Everything is cheap, 5 years later... WCS should be the ultimate tournament, the most imposing, the most beautiful... Even the schedule was not good (yesterday it started at 6pm to 8 am for EU, after 3 am for EU we were 35k...) and we all know that EU is watching Starcraft more than US... Really I mean so many guys paid to think and no one makes the right call... I really love Blizzard and Starcraft 2 but no, it's not a good little step, nobody has time, Blizzard needs do step it up for the community, not buy time like that."
The game is fine.
Blizzard does not know how to create excitement around a competitive live event. Blizzard does not know how to "create stars". It is a fine art that few have mastered. I do not think Blizzard is even focused on "creating stars".
Its ironic that the best event promotion and star creation occurred when Blizzard basically surrendered its rights to Brood War and several South Korean promoters were given carte blanche due to Blizzard's disinterest and total focus on WoW.
There's honestly nothing ironic or surprising about that. Anyone who didn't see that coming before SC2 launched was either naive or had ulterior motives.
The plan Blizzard had was to make as much money as possible in the short term by exploiting the reputation of Brood War and forcing the player base to transition to the new game. Their entire partnership with GOM was intended to be disruptive. They weren't partnering with the most competent, experienced team. All they wanted to do was create conflict.
These tournaments only benefit Blizzard to the extent that they advertise Blizzard products and foster good will among people who are likely to buy Blizzard products. They don't need to be great. There's no incentive for Blizzard to make them great. They just need to be passable. We're deep in the realm of diminishing returns here.
On November 03 2014 12:08 mikumegurine wrote: so Balloon has a student visa?
So POlt, Violet, Balloon
any others? can get a student visa, maybe for a cheap community college or something (any country where its easiest, Macau, Africa, Middle East etc)?
I'm pretty sure that when CatZ recruited hydra and SuperNova he told that he was going to do anything for them to play in WCS AM, or am I wrong? (also did this thread really devolved into a "SC2 ded gaem" thread...)
On November 03 2014 07:03 Doodsmack wrote: It is pretty funny that they teased us with region lock and then halved the number of spots available for foreigners lol.
In practice, this change does not hurt foreigners. Because the money paid out in WCS has doubled, one season in Premier now pays as much (or more, assuming distribution stays the same) as two seasons did this year. With the removal of essentially all Koreans but three or four, more spots are open for foreigners to make it into Premier. It may look like a net loss on paper, but unless a lot of Koreans manage to secure visas such as Violet's (and they won't), the foreign scene will receive more money through WCS in 2015 than in 2014.
The prize money thing is definitely good, but it's less additional spots available in premier than the initial region lock tease would have led us to believe.
ok so? i'm not seeing how that matters. prize money is more important for foreign talent to develop than the "prestige" of being in a league called premier. you need to eat and pay your bills, then you can worry about whether you can put "premier" on your list of accomplishments
Being in the league called premier isn't just about prestige, it also brings with it a nice payday, even in the Ro32. Less spots means less people getting that payday. IMO having a broader playing field paying money to more people is more important for the health of the scene than paying more money to fewer people. That's also why I loath winner-takes-all formats.
On November 01 2014 07:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I like this a lot.
Unified league outside of Korea is really exciting to me. Grubby vs Violet, TLO vs HuK, Bunny vs Scarlett bring it on.
Additionally the regional qualifiers into live Ro32 are a huge improvement to the legitimacy of playing cross server for Taiwanese, Latin Americans, Chinese, etc. Now they can just play on their local servers and qualify directly into live Ro32.
Live on-site Ro16 as a legitimate event instead of Ro8 and even the finals played in the same studio in front of the same 20 people?
Same prizepool?!
whilst having some cool NA v EU matchups, i dont really understand the purpose behind such a drastic change to an otherwise mostly stable system
Might have something to do with ESL hosting both NA and EU right now. Would make production easier, and also organising much easier if EU + NA merge.
On November 03 2014 02:51 TheDwf wrote: I love Blizzard, I love the game, but it's obviously bad, we need more, look at yesterday, Taeja, Life, soO are there but where is the show? Where is the crowd? Where is the money? Everything is cheap, 5 years later... WCS should be the ultimate tournament, the most imposing, the most beautiful... Even the schedule was not good (yesterday it started at 6pm to 8 am for EU, after 3 am for EU we were 35k...) and we all know that EU is watching Starcraft more than US... Really I mean so many guys paid to think and no one makes the right call... I really love Blizzard and Starcraft 2 but no, it's not a good little step, nobody has time, Blizzard needs do step it up for the community, not buy time like that."
The game is fine.
Blizzard does not know how to create excitement around a competitive live event. Blizzard does not know how to "create stars". It is a fine art that few have mastered. I do not think Blizzard is even focused on "creating stars".
Its ironic that the best event promotion and star creation occurred when Blizzard basically surrendered its rights to Brood War and several South Korean promoters were given carte blanche due to Blizzard's disinterest and total focus on WoW.
There's honestly nothing ironic or surprising about that. Anyone who didn't see that coming before SC2 launched was either naive or had ulterior motives.
The plan Blizzard had was to make as much money as possible in the short term by exploiting the reputation of Brood War and forcing the player base to transition to the new game. Their entire partnership with GOM was intended to be disruptive. They weren't partnering with the most competent, experienced team. All they wanted to do was create conflict.
These tournaments only benefit Blizzard to the extent that they advertise Blizzard products and foster good will among people who are likely to buy Blizzard products. They don't need to be great. There's no incentive for Blizzard to make them great. They just need to be passable. We're deep in the realm of diminishing returns here.
Blizzard disagrees ..Pierce intended SC2 esports to be a 10 year project. as you've noted its in a serious tailspin after 4.5 years.
smart live event promoters will always be around sniffing around looking for the next big thing. at one time that was Brood War. Blizzard snuffed them out of their game. They failed to partner with them and their 10 year project is in a serious tailspin 5 years in. but, hey, at least SC2 esports lasted longer than Destiny and Titanfall.
and you say Blizzard wanted this to happen great plan. Blizzard needs to stay out of live event promotion.. they do not know what they are doing. 5 years ago they thought they could do it. they failed.... so this is what we're left with half way through their grand plan. 60 people at thelive event watching the top 16 fight for the world title... makes you wonder what 2019 will look like.
On November 03 2014 07:03 Doodsmack wrote: It is pretty funny that they teased us with region lock and then halved the number of spots available for foreigners lol.
In practice, this change does not hurt foreigners. Because the money paid out in WCS has doubled, one season in Premier now pays as much (or more, assuming distribution stays the same) as two seasons did this year. With the removal of essentially all Koreans but three or four, more spots are open for foreigners to make it into Premier. It may look like a net loss on paper, but unless a lot of Koreans manage to secure visas such as Violet's (and they won't), the foreign scene will receive more money through WCS in 2015 than in 2014.
The prize money thing is definitely good, but it's less additional spots available in premier than the initial region lock tease would have led us to believe.
ok so? i'm not seeing how that matters. prize money is more important for foreign talent to develop than the "prestige" of being in a league called premier. you need to eat and pay your bills, then you can worry about whether you can put "premier" on your list of accomplishments
Being in the league called premier isn't just about prestige, it also brings with it a nice payday, even in the Ro32. Less spots means less people getting that payday. IMO having a broader playing field paying money to more people is more important for the health of the scene than paying more money to fewer people. That's also why I loath winner-takes-all formats.
The Koreans just have the vastly superior system when it comes to developing talents. More amount of prestige or more amount of money will be nothing more than a drop in the bucket when it comes to Foreigners catching up to Koreans.
On November 03 2014 18:49 Thax wrote: Being in the league called premier isn't just about prestige, it also brings with it a nice payday, even in the Ro32. Less spots means less people getting that payday. IMO having a broader playing field paying money to more people is more important for the health of the scene than paying more money to fewer people. That's also why I loath winner-takes-all formats.
On November 03 2014 02:51 TheDwf wrote: I love Blizzard, I love the game, but it's obviously bad, we need more, look at yesterday, Taeja, Life, soO are there but where is the show? Where is the crowd? Where is the money? Everything is cheap, 5 years later... WCS should be the ultimate tournament, the most imposing, the most beautiful... Even the schedule was not good (yesterday it started at 6pm to 8 am for EU, after 3 am for EU we were 35k...) and we all know that EU is watching Starcraft more than US... Really I mean so many guys paid to think and no one makes the right call... I really love Blizzard and Starcraft 2 but no, it's not a good little step, nobody has time, Blizzard needs do step it up for the community, not buy time like that."
The game is fine.
Blizzard does not know how to create excitement around a competitive live event. Blizzard does not know how to "create stars". It is a fine art that few have mastered. I do not think Blizzard is even focused on "creating stars".
Its ironic that the best event promotion and star creation occurred when Blizzard basically surrendered its rights to Brood War and several South Korean promoters were given carte blanche due to Blizzard's disinterest and total focus on WoW.
There's honestly nothing ironic or surprising about that. Anyone who didn't see that coming before SC2 launched was either naive or had ulterior motives.
The plan Blizzard had was to make as much money as possible in the short term by exploiting the reputation of Brood War and forcing the player base to transition to the new game. Their entire partnership with GOM was intended to be disruptive. They weren't partnering with the most competent, experienced team. All they wanted to do was create conflict.
These tournaments only benefit Blizzard to the extent that they advertise Blizzard products and foster good will among people who are likely to buy Blizzard products. They don't need to be great. There's no incentive for Blizzard to make them great. They just need to be passable. We're deep in the realm of diminishing returns here.
and you say Blizzard wanted this to happen great plan. Blizzard needs to stay out of live event promotion.. they do not know what they are doing. 5 years ago they thought they could do it. they failed.... so this is what we're left with half way through their grand plan. 60 people at thelive event watching the top 16 fight for the world title... makes you wonder what 2019 will look like.
the game itself is great though.
You might be interested in knowing that what you're calling "the live event" (which it really wasn't, it was the prelude) was a private event played out in Blizzard's Burbank studios, not open (as far as I know) to just anyone. The big event will still be held at Blizzcon and the crowd will still be large, but you're acting as if Blizzcon has already come and went and failed. You do that a lot when talking about SC2 events, and I don't recall a time when you weren't partially wrong in your predictions.
On November 03 2014 02:51 TheDwf wrote: I love Blizzard, I love the game, but it's obviously bad, we need more, look at yesterday, Taeja, Life, soO are there but where is the show? Where is the crowd? Where is the money? Everything is cheap, 5 years later... WCS should be the ultimate tournament, the most imposing, the most beautiful... Even the schedule was not good (yesterday it started at 6pm to 8 am for EU, after 3 am for EU we were 35k...) and we all know that EU is watching Starcraft more than US... Really I mean so many guys paid to think and no one makes the right call... I really love Blizzard and Starcraft 2 but no, it's not a good little step, nobody has time, Blizzard needs do step it up for the community, not buy time like that."
The game is fine.
Blizzard does not know how to create excitement around a competitive live event. Blizzard does not know how to "create stars". It is a fine art that few have mastered. I do not think Blizzard is even focused on "creating stars".
Its ironic that the best event promotion and star creation occurred when Blizzard basically surrendered its rights to Brood War and several South Korean promoters were given carte blanche due to Blizzard's disinterest and total focus on WoW.
There's honestly nothing ironic or surprising about that. Anyone who didn't see that coming before SC2 launched was either naive or had ulterior motives.
The plan Blizzard had was to make as much money as possible in the short term by exploiting the reputation of Brood War and forcing the player base to transition to the new game. Their entire partnership with GOM was intended to be disruptive. They weren't partnering with the most competent, experienced team. All they wanted to do was create conflict.
These tournaments only benefit Blizzard to the extent that they advertise Blizzard products and foster good will among people who are likely to buy Blizzard products. They don't need to be great. There's no incentive for Blizzard to make them great. They just need to be passable. We're deep in the realm of diminishing returns here.
and you say Blizzard wanted this to happen great plan. Blizzard needs to stay out of live event promotion.. they do not know what they are doing. 5 years ago they thought they could do it. they failed.... so this is what we're left with half way through their grand plan. 60 people at thelive event watching the top 16 fight for the world title... makes you wonder what 2019 will look like.
the game itself is great though.
You might be interested in knowing that what you're calling "the live event" (which it really wasn't, it was the prelude) was a private event played out in Blizzard's Burbank studios, not open (as far as I know) to just anyone. The big event will still be held at Blizzcon and the crowd will still be large, but you're acting as if Blizzcon has already come and went and failed. You do that a lot when talking about SC2 events, and I don't recall a time when you weren't partially wrong in your predictions.
Blizzard's biggest errors occurred 6 or 7 years ago. with proper promotion i think SC2 esports can be #1 as Brood War was. i don't think it'll ever happen though.
On November 03 2014 18:49 Thax wrote: Being in the league called premier isn't just about prestige, it also brings with it a nice payday, even in the Ro32. Less spots means less people getting that payday. IMO having a broader playing field paying money to more people is more important for the health of the scene than paying more money to fewer people. That's also why I loath winner-takes-all formats.
96-64= 32 less spots get $600 because EU and NA are together now. Actually I dont see why a 65th or 96th placed player should get some money.
to encourage higher level participation among foreigners since a good amount of money is on the line even at the low tier level, it should raise overall skill floor of foreign competitors
I remember watching avilo goi bio yesterday on stream. he smells the money and he's adapting from ladder warrior to wcs competitor. same should be going on everywhere
On November 04 2014 01:45 Deathstar wrote: I remember watching avilo goi bio yesterday on stream. he smells the money and he's adapting from ladder warrior to wcs competitor. same should be going on everywhere
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
On November 04 2014 01:45 Deathstar wrote: I remember watching avilo goi bio yesterday on stream. he smells the money and he's adapting from ladder warrior to wcs competitor. same should be going on everywhere
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
Yeah, let's ruin the lives of the few Koreans who actually live and study in EU/AM countries by forcing them to play in KR, with all the flight costs etc that are involved
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
Balloon moved back to KR.
Are you telling me he won't play in UWCS next year? D:
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
These are not the only 3 that will be playing in unified WCS. I know of at least 3 more koreans which will be playing in NA region, and about 4-5 koreans at least will be in the EU region.
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
These are not the only 3 that will be playing in unified WCS. I know of at least 3 more koreans which will be playing in NA region, and about 4-5 koreans at least will be in the EU region.
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
These are not the only 3 that will be playing in unified WCS. I know of at least 3 more koreans which will be playing in NA region, and about 4-5 koreans at least will be in the EU region.
How certain is this? Because as I'm sure you know, Balloon went back to Korea, and given what others have said about the difficulty of acquiring visas (none of the players currently in the EU region have proper ones) by ESL officials, I find it hard to believe 5 could acquire the visas they need within the timeframe.
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
These are not the only 3 that will be playing in unified WCS. I know of at least 3 more koreans which will be playing in NA region, and about 4-5 koreans at least will be in the EU region.
How certain is this? Because as I'm sure you know, Balloon went back to Korea, and given what others have said about the difficulty of acquiring visas (none of the players currently in the EU region have proper ones) by ESL officials, I find it hard to believe 5 could acquire the visas they need within the timeframe.
Yet others have mentioned that it is not so hard to get a working visa in e.g. Germany as long as you have a job. Maybe it is just a matter of providing a proper contract?
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
Yeah, let's ruin the lives of the few Koreans who actually live and study in EU/AM countries by forcing them to play in KR, with all the flight costs etc that are involved
If you are a student you should pay attention to your professor, not SC2!
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
These are not the only 3 that will be playing in unified WCS. I know of at least 3 more koreans which will be playing in NA region, and about 4-5 koreans at least will be in the EU region.
How certain is this? Because as I'm sure you know, Balloon went back to Korea, and given what others have said about the difficulty of acquiring visas (none of the players currently in the EU region have proper ones) by ESL officials, I find it hard to believe 5 could acquire the visas they need within the timeframe.
Yet others have mentioned that it is not so hard to get a working visa in e.g. Germany as long as you have a job. Maybe it is just a matter of providing a proper contract?
If Millenium couldn't make that happen for ForGG (I have only a layman's understanding of visas, mind), who has lived in Germany for a pretty long time and competed in Europe since 2012, I think "providing a proper contract" isn't as simple a matter as we might think.
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
These are not the only 3 that will be playing in unified WCS. I know of at least 3 more koreans which will be playing in NA region, and about 4-5 koreans at least will be in the EU region.
How certain is this? Because as I'm sure you know, Balloon went back to Korea, and given what others have said about the difficulty of acquiring visas (none of the players currently in the EU region have proper ones) by ESL officials, I find it hard to believe 5 could acquire the visas they need within the timeframe.
Yet others have mentioned that it is not so hard to get a working visa in e.g. Germany as long as you have a job. Maybe it is just a matter of providing a proper contract?
If Millenium couldn't make that happen for ForGG (I have only a layman's understanding of visas, mind), who has lived in Germany for a pretty long time and competed in Europe since 2012, I think "providing a proper contract" isn't as simple a matter as we might think.
Someone mentioned that Millenium apparently did sort out a French working visa for ForGG, but ForGG went to Germany instead, because of his girlfriend being there, and stayed on this tourist visa or whatever it is. If people work, they should have a working visa. And a proper contract. Simple as that. Note that I said should.
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
These are not the only 3 that will be playing in unified WCS. I know of at least 3 more koreans which will be playing in NA region, and about 4-5 koreans at least will be in the EU region.
How certain is this? Because as I'm sure you know, Balloon went back to Korea, and given what others have said about the difficulty of acquiring visas (none of the players currently in the EU region have proper ones) by ESL officials, I find it hard to believe 5 could acquire the visas they need within the timeframe.
Yet others have mentioned that it is not so hard to get a working visa in e.g. Germany as long as you have a job. Maybe it is just a matter of providing a proper contract?
If Millenium couldn't make that happen for ForGG (I have only a layman's understanding of visas, mind), who has lived in Germany for a pretty long time and competed in Europe since 2012, I think "providing a proper contract" isn't as simple a matter as we might think.
Someone mentioned that Millenium apparently did sort out a French working visa for ForGG, but ForGG went to Germany instead, because of his girlfriend being there, and stayed on this tourist visa or whatever it is. If people work, they should have a working visa. And a proper contract. Simple as that. Note that I said should.
ForGG has a proper contract, Millenium is one of the most serious/stable team in Europe. By the way, even if ForGG is not able to play WCS EU he wants to stay in Europe. There is a short article about the ForGG case in Millenium website. Moreover, tomorrow there is an interview of Llewellys, Millenium manager, and I'm pretty sure he's going to talk about new WCS rules.
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
These are not the only 3 that will be playing in unified WCS. I know of at least 3 more koreans which will be playing in NA region, and about 4-5 koreans at least will be in the EU region.
How certain is this? Because as I'm sure you know, Balloon went back to Korea, and given what others have said about the difficulty of acquiring visas (none of the players currently in the EU region have proper ones) by ESL officials, I find it hard to believe 5 could acquire the visas they need within the timeframe.
Yet others have mentioned that it is not so hard to get a working visa in e.g. Germany as long as you have a job. Maybe it is just a matter of providing a proper contract?
If Millenium couldn't make that happen for ForGG (I have only a layman's understanding of visas, mind), who has lived in Germany for a pretty long time and competed in Europe since 2012, I think "providing a proper contract" isn't as simple a matter as we might think.
Someone mentioned that Millenium apparently did sort out a French working visa for ForGG, but ForGG went to Germany instead, because of his girlfriend being there, and stayed on this tourist visa or whatever it is. If people work, they should have a working visa. And a proper contract. Simple as that. Note that I said should.
ForGG has a proper contract, Millenium is one of the most serious/stable team in Europe. By the way, even if ForGG is not able to play WCS EU he wants to stay in Europe. There is a short article about the ForGG case in Millenium website. Moreover, tomorrow there is an interview of Llewellys, Millenium manager, and I'm pretty sure he's going to talk about new WCS rules.
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
These are not the only 3 that will be playing in unified WCS. I know of at least 3 more koreans which will be playing in NA region, and about 4-5 koreans at least will be in the EU region.
I hope this isn't true, it will seriously undermine Blizzard's commendable effort to fix WCS. If there are more than 7-8 koreans taking the NA/EU slots, it will be worse than ever for foreigners.
On November 04 2014 03:04 cpower wrote: This needs to be nationality locked. Otherwise Polt and a few koreans win every time. Make it a foreigner event!
a bit harsh no? I can imagine that Polt, Violet and Balloon stay in America after esport-career. As far I know only these 3 can attend unified WCS.
These are not the only 3 that will be playing in unified WCS. I know of at least 3 more koreans which will be playing in NA region, and about 4-5 koreans at least will be in the EU region.
I hope this isn't true, it will seriously undermine Blizzard's commendable effort to fix WCS. If there are more than 7-8 koreans taking the NA/EU slots, it will be worse than ever for foreigners.
I hate Blizzard. This isn't even a new problem in sports. This is what happens when nerds try to create sports, though. Any legitimate sport, with any common sense, whatsoever, puts a hard cap on the amount of foreigners that can play in their leagues. You're not left to wonder, o man, I wonder how many spots will be up for grabs in "x" season. Even if this season would be good for foreigners, the inevitable is still obvious, thus you will eventually have to change the rules again. Whenever that is the case, you may as well just act like the inevitable has already happened.
As for Koreans in NA and having to pay for flights. There's only 1 or so Korean who could even contemplate qualifying in Korea. Looking at 2012, WCS great for foreigners. Good scene. Now, horrible for foreigners. No scene. Let's make it even harder... every day, it's hard to not wish you played LoL.
student visas also work, is Balloon confirmed to have a student visa?
if so, maybe he might think of moving back or maybe since he already has student visa, he can just stay in korea until offline Ro32, then fly back LOL...
working visas seem to be harder to get than student visas....
Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
Do you really expect less now? The Koreans that will be left in EU and NA will still dominate. Not to mention some will be able to get to this through Taiwan. Only 2 spots but those 2 are sure to get to top 8 or 4 in WCS international and get to Blizzcon again.
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
Terrible for the foreign fans and players that is. And it would be better, of course, if the foreign players could be at the same level as Koreans skill-wise. But from an objective competitive position it is by no means terrible to have the best players at Blizzcon, However, I hope foreigners can close that skill gap as much as possible in the near future.
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
Do you really expect less now? The Koreans that will be left in EU and NA will still dominate. Not to mention some will be able to get to this through Taiwan. Only 2 spots but those 2 are sure to get to top 8 or 4 in WCS international and get to Blizzcon again.
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
Do you really expect less now? The Koreans that will be left in EU and NA will still dominate. Not to mention some will be able to get to this through Taiwan. Only 2 spots but those 2 are sure to get to top 8 or 4 in WCS international and get to Blizzcon again.
There won't be koreans qualifying from Taiwan.
How do you know that? I understood it is not hard to get a Visa there.
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
Terrible for the foreign fans and players that is. And it would be better, of course, if the foreign players could be at the same level as Koreans skill-wise. But from an objective competitive position it is by no means terrible to have the best players at Blizzcon, However, I hope foreigners can close that skill gap as much as possible in the near future.
That would be the best obviously, if that was the case then none of these rules would be necessary.
On November 06 2014 01:10 Necro)Phagist( wrote: So maybe I'm misunderstanding something.. but isn't it a bit unfair that Europe almost gets as many slots as every other region put together? Europe has 14 slots to premier meanwhile the rest of the world has 18 to work with? You'd think if any region was going to get more premier slots it would be Korea? the place that has by far the most talent... I understand Blizzard wants to promote the foreign scene but is it really worth the cost of crippling the Korean scene in the process? It's great Korea has another individual league to work with but limiting their premier league slots to 2 is brutal. I guess they can still travel to Europe and NA to try and farm but isn't that exactly what Blizzard wanted to stop from happening? This format seems to promote Koreans coming over and dominating the foreign scene.
Again maybe I'm missing something or have completely misunderstood what is happening but from what I can tell this seems really bad.
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
Terrible for the foreign fans and players that is. And it would be better, of course, if the foreign players could be at the same level as Koreans skill-wise. But from an objective competitive position it is by no means terrible to have the best players at Blizzcon, However, I hope foreigners can close that skill gap as much as possible in the near future.
The gap will never be closed (unless LotV lowers the skill floor to an INSANE extent).
On November 06 2014 01:10 Necro)Phagist( wrote: So maybe I'm misunderstanding something.. but isn't it a bit unfair that Europe almost gets as many slots as every other region put together? Europe has 14 slots to premier meanwhile the rest of the world has 18 to work with? You'd think if any region was going to get more premier slots it would be Korea? the place that has by far the most talent... I understand Blizzard wants to promote the foreign scene but is it really worth the cost of crippling the Korean scene in the process? It's great Korea has another individual league to work with but limiting their premier league slots to 2 is brutal. I guess they can still travel to Europe and NA to try and farm but isn't that exactly what Blizzard wanted to stop from happening? This format seems to promote Koreans coming over and dominating the foreign scene.
Again maybe I'm missing something or have completely misunderstood what is happening but from what I can tell this seems really bad.
Sorry, but fortunately you completely misunderstood. The 2 slots for Oceania + Southeast Asia does not include Korea--they are not shown in that picture. Check the images in this post for a brief overview (or read the whole thing for the detail): http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/articles/2015-starcraft-ii-world-championship-series
On November 06 2014 01:10 Necro)Phagist( wrote: So maybe I'm misunderstanding something.. but isn't it a bit unfair that Europe almost gets as many slots as every other region put together? Europe has 14 slots to premier meanwhile the rest of the world has 18 to work with? You'd think if any region was going to get more premier slots it would be Korea? the place that has by far the most talent... I understand Blizzard wants to promote the foreign scene but is it really worth the cost of crippling the Korean scene in the process? It's great Korea has another individual league to work with but limiting their premier league slots to 2 is brutal. I guess they can still travel to Europe and NA to try and farm but isn't that exactly what Blizzard wanted to stop from happening? This format seems to promote Koreans coming over and dominating the foreign scene.
Again maybe I'm missing something or have completely misunderstood what is happening but from what I can tell this seems really bad.
Sorry, but fortunately you completely misunderstood. The 2 slots for Oceania + Southeast Asia does not include Korea--they are not shown in that picture. Check the images in this post for a brief overview (or read the whole thing for the detail): http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/articles/2015-starcraft-ii-world-championship-series
Ahh well I'm actually quite glad I misunderstood that! Thanks for correcting me.
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
There will still be 16 Koreans at Blizzcon :p. Blizzard decided, if they're going to have 16 Koreans, they might as well be the best 16 Koreans, unlike what we have had this and last year. That said, it's entirely possible the Blizzcon format changes for next year, opening it up to 32 players would mean a few foreigners at Blizzcon.
On November 01 2014 07:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: I dont know. WCS NA and WCS EU in same? That kind of sucks... 32 players in premier, so that means 32 premier spots less than now. That sucks
same thing i thought ... 32 instead of 64 means that the koreans living in eu/us are just to many so we have for sure all korean in the end
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
Terrible for the foreign fans and players that is. And it would be better, of course, if the foreign players could be at the same level as Koreans skill-wise. But from an objective competitive position it is by no means terrible to have the best players at Blizzcon, However, I hope foreigners can close that skill gap as much as possible in the near future.
Just look at GSL for the best.
blizzcon is a treat for the fans. something less serious but something that allows you to see your guy at the big stage during blizzard's biggest event
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
I don't get what is so terrible about having the best players in the world at the tournament for the best players in the world.
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
Terrible for the foreign fans and players that is. And it would be better, of course, if the foreign players could be at the same level as Koreans skill-wise. But from an objective competitive position it is by no means terrible to have the best players at Blizzcon, However, I hope foreigners can close that skill gap as much as possible in the near future.
Just look at GSL for the best.
blizzcon is a treat for the fans. something less serious but something that allows you to see your guy at the big stage during blizzard's biggest event
Bad time slot. If you want to watch GSL as a citizen of EU you have to stay away from results and hope someone does not spoil it for you and pay for it... wasn't there somethign like "WCS vods are supposed to be free" thing? Or what am I doing wrong when it tells me I have to be subscriber to see a missed match?
Nope, nope, nope. They lost a viewer. I won't watch low level foreigners, I don't like them. Players I like are not at the top anymore(e.g. Dimaga, Whitera).
I certainly hope Blizzard will recognize that Europe is really big watching base and change something(maybe rebroadcast of GSL in some better hours?) But I fear it will end up exactly like at my work. I work for an American company, so I know a little bit about murrica and how do they care about nonNA stuff (they don't, but they pretend they do and they do this very well)
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
I don't get what is so terrible about having the best players in the world at the tournament for the best players in the world.
Well it has been that only since last year, so it's understandable that some people are sour about the exclusion of foreigners.
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
Terrible for the foreign fans and players that is. And it would be better, of course, if the foreign players could be at the same level as Koreans skill-wise. But from an objective competitive position it is by no means terrible to have the best players at Blizzcon, However, I hope foreigners can close that skill gap as much as possible in the near future.
Just look at GSL for the best.
blizzcon is a treat for the fans. something less serious but something that allows you to see your guy at the big stage during blizzard's biggest event
Bad time slot. If you want to watch GSL as a citizen of EU you have to stay away from results and hope someone does not spoil it for you and pay for it... wasn't there somethign like "WCS vods are supposed to be free" thing? Or what am I doing wrong when it tells me I have to be subscriber to see a missed match?
Nope, nope, nope. They lost a viewer. I won't watch low level foreigners, I don't like them. Players I like are not at the top anymore(e.g. Dimaga, Whitera).
I certainly hope Blizzard will recognize that Europe is really big watching base and change something(maybe rebroadcast of GSL in some better hours?) But I fear it will end up exactly like at my work. I work for an American company, so I know a little bit about murrica and how do they care about nonNA stuff (they don't, but they pretend they do and they do this very well)
I enjoyed it so much when I was abroad in China. I could just get home from work and watch the GSL live while eating dinner, for free. It was amazing! After returning to the USA, it was easy to pay $5 a season or whatever to watch GSL vods, but once they started upping the cost to $15+, I stopped watching. Last time I checked it had increased even more.
It also didn't help that they moved everything from GOMtv to Twitch. GOM was the best...
Yeah free vods would be nice, or at the very least rebroadcasts
ugh now that I think about it, I hope this tournament format change isn't the only thing blizzard has in store for us. hope blizzcon will have some exciting news
On November 06 2014 05:40 Deathstar wrote: Yeah free vods would be nice, or at the very least rebroadcasts
ugh now that I think about it, I hope this tournament format change isn't the only thing blizzard has in store for us. hope blizzcon will have some exciting news
Blizzard is announcing something new for SC2 during blizzcon, this has already been announced
On November 06 2014 04:59 Deathstar wrote: Just look at GSL for the best.
But GSL isn't broadcast at a friendly time for a good chunk of the world, particularly for those who live in North, South and Central America.
On November 06 2014 04:59 Deathstar wrote: blizzcon is a treat for the fans. something less serious but something that allows you to see your guy at the big stage during blizzard's biggest event
If that's what Blizzard wants Blizzcon to be, they should just invite competitors based on fan voting instead of having a points based system that rewards performance.
i'd be nice to see different people in a WCS finals, imagine if we saw top 16 include a few koreans, indians, mexicans, africans, etc. battling it out. we usually see korean and caucasian, I'm up for the unification leagues.
On November 05 2014 22:24 Valefort wrote: Seems like WCS will become interesting again ! I feel a bit sorry for the koreans who will have to move back but the previous system was clearly problematic, blizzcon with 16 koreans is simply terrible.
I don't get what is so terrible about having the best players in the world at the tournament for the best players in the world.
Because it's not only about the overall level of a competition. A lot of people are chauvinistic, at least a little bit, and if you have no one to cheer for in a tournament it's a lot less interesting. In classic sports people usually support local teams or their countries, SC2 is no different and the division foreigner/koreans is everywhere. Quality of play is important but top level play is not absolutely essential from a spectator's point of view like me.
When you love sc2 you'll watch regardless but if you're a casual player/fan you won't always watch unless there is something else that draws you, be it chauvinism, player(s) you like, particular shoutcasters ...you name it.
On November 01 2014 20:49 Gr33d wrote: Looks like TB is still salty when it comes to TaKe's events. They give out a big enough prize pool, meet the other requirements AND a lot of people watch them, ofc they should also give WCS points then.
Popularity and prize pool is a terrible argument to determine point distribution. It's not obvious (in fact quite counter-intuitive) to do so and is by no means a controversial position. You can think Homestory is the best tournament out there, that doesn't change anything.
In short, WCS 2015 is now largely about skill with immigration paperwork, instead of SC2. And that goes not only for the Koreans but also for anyone who will be randomly disallowed to enter US should the finals be there (and I haven't seen any indications that all the finals will be in the EU).
Interesting changes, overall I'm more for it as now the best 32 outside of Korea will battle it out, some will disagree but I feel this will cut out a lot of clutter in the leagues when they were separate. A lot of the matches I felt weren't worth watching because some players were just making up the numbers, now however you have to bring your A to RO32 as you're less likely to get drawn in a group with whipping boys battling the best 32 out of Korea.
The issue with an unified league is factoring the immigration of where the events and finals will be held, EU will most likely be host to finals as I think we have less strict immigration then the US.
On November 06 2014 04:59 Deathstar wrote: blizzcon is a treat for the fans. something less serious but something that allows you to see your guy at the big stage during blizzard's biggest event
If that's what Blizzard wants Blizzcon to be, they should just invite competitors based on fan voting instead of having a points based system that rewards performance.
fan vote might be the only way to see flash vs jaedong vs stork at blizzcon
I haven't followed professional SC2 since WoL ended. This WCS system looks incredibly confusing. Can't we go back to just GSLs and WCGs? Or even better, MSLs, OSLs, and WCGs?
On December 29 2014 08:00 wptlzkwjd wrote: I haven't followed professional SC2 since WoL ended. This WCS system looks incredibly confusing. Can't we go back to just GSLs and WCGs? Or even better, MSLs, OSLs, and WCGs?
it rly isnt. just read and use your brain for a second.
On December 29 2014 08:00 wptlzkwjd wrote: I haven't followed professional SC2 since WoL ended. This WCS system looks incredibly confusing. Can't we go back to just GSLs and WCGs? Or even better, MSLs, OSLs, and WCGs?
it rly isnt. just read and use your brain for a second.
yes it is for people that dont have your amazing brain.
Koreans are way too dominant. Blizzard needs to be even harder on restricting Korean participation.
I am Norwegian, and we are OP in crosscountry skiing, especially for women. Now imagine if every Norwegian in the top 100 or so would be allowed in the world cup. I guess at least 20 would qualify, and effectively block several nations from having a legit team. That is why the Norwegians have to compeete harshly amongs themselves for the national quota of 5-7 athletes, diversity is secured.
Same thing with Jamaican sprinters, west african long distance runners, dutch skaters etc. etc.
Why do you think european athletic championship and the African cup in football exist? Because local championships matters!
I enjoyed the first WCS immensely because of its nation-region-world steucture. Of course, 3 Koreans were top 3 in the end, but the events and the winners created on the way there were amazing!
Why not make a complete citezenship lock? It would help the scene way more than it would hurt the very few players living outside their region.
On January 08 2015 22:46 Slydie wrote: Koreans are way too dominant. Blizzard needs to be even harder on restricting Korean participation.
I am Norwegian, and we are OP in crosscountry skiing, especially for women. Now imagine if every Norwegian in the top 100 or so would be allowed in the world cup. I guess at least 20 would qualify, and effectively block several nations from having a legit team. That is why the Norwegians have to compeete harshly amongs themselves for the national quota of 5-7 athletes, diversity is secured.
Same thing with Jamaican sprinters, west african long distance runners, dutch skaters etc. etc.
Why do you think european athletic championship and the African cup in football exist? Because local championships matters!
I enjoyed the first WCS immensely because of its nation-region-world steucture. Of course, 3 Koreans were top 3, but the events and the winners created on the way there were amazing!
Why not make a complete citezenship lock? It would help the scene way more than it would hurt the very few players living outsode their region.
Starcraft, as it stands, is not a national sport, it's an individual one.
On January 08 2015 22:46 Slydie wrote: Koreans are way too dominant. Blizzard needs to be even harder on restricting Korean participation.
I am Norwegian, and we are OP in crosscountry skiing, especially for women. Now imagine if every Norwegian in the top 100 or so would be allowed in the world cup. I guess at least 20 would qualify, and effectively block several nations from having a legit team. That is why the Norwegians have to compeete harshly amongs themselves for the national quota of 5-7 athletes, diversity is secured.
Same thing with Jamaican sprinters, west african long distance runners, dutch skaters etc. etc.
Why do you think european athletic championship and the African cup in football exist? Because local championships matters!
I enjoyed the first WCS immensely because of its nation-region-world steucture. Of course, 3 Koreans were top 3 in the end, but the events and the winners created on the way there were amazing!
Why not make a complete citezenship lock? It would help the scene way more than it would hurt the very few players living outside their region.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pRAeQUT.jpg)
But for EU 
.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FHDShZ1.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lgjVbsu.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IPpcZkh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://c.ask.nate.com/imgs/qrsi.php/5865023/7956145/0/1/A/185.jpg)
(they don't, but they pretend they do and they do this very well)
