#Dreampool: Old ladder maps return for Season 4 - Page 20

Meavis

Netherlands1300 Posts

September 17 2014 07:34 GMT

#381

On September 17 2014 16:30 Fecalfeast wrote:
I agree with letting map makers deviate from standard map design in the off season.

I also want to drone rush again.

nowhere is there anything related to mapmakers or future maps and design, they're just bringing old ladder maps.

bosshd

Belgium72 Posts

September 17 2014 07:35 GMT

#382

daybreak

Teoita

Italy12246 Posts

September 17 2014 07:36 GMT

#383

On September 17 2014 16:34 Meavis wrote:

Show nested quote +

nowhere is there anything related to mapmakers or future maps and design, they're just bringing old ladder maps.

Appearently some people have decided that 4 year old maps that we know create awful games are in fact innovative and refereshing.

Emperor

Norway68 Posts

September 17 2014 07:37 GMT

#384

My hopes!

Shakuras Plateau
Daybreak
Ohana
Cloud Kingdom
Yeonsu
Frost
Alterzim Stronghold

This would be so awsome! (I take most maps over the current map pool to be honest)

Meavis

Netherlands1300 Posts

September 17 2014 07:37 GMT

#385

On September 17 2014 16:36 Teoita wrote:

Show nested quote +

Appearently some people have decided that 4 year old maps that we know create awful games are in fact innovative and refereshing.

they could've brought in crazy community maps, they had such a nice direction with all community maps this season ;_;

Ragnarork

France9034 Posts

September 17 2014 07:44 GMT

#386

Oh man oh man oh man.

Let's see. Cloud Kingdom is a lock (though I fear a bit for Blink builds). Belshir Beach. Tal Darim Altar. Shakuras Plateau. A (slightly) improved Lost Temple. Testbug. Ohana.

No Daybreak pls. I feel sick now just hearing the name. We've got too much of it

BruMeister

United States90 Posts

September 17 2014 07:47 GMT

#387

Metalopolis and Cloud Kingdom!

Dav1oN

Ukraine3164 Posts

September 17 2014 07:55 GMT

#388

Yes but then it shouldn't be forced in the ranked ladder. If this was just unranked it'd be perfectly fine.

I don't think there is any difference between ranked and unranked during the offseason. Since all those maps should be removed two weeks before wcs starts, it won't be a problem to adjust.

boxerfred

Germany8360 Posts

September 17 2014 07:56 GMT

#389

Entombed valley <3

Magnet

United States77 Posts

September 17 2014 08:24 GMT

#390

Metropolis, since it was only in the pool for a few days anyway!

Dapper_Cad

United Kingdom964 Posts

September 17 2014 08:27 GMT

#391

On September 17 2014 16:33 Teoita wrote:

Show nested quote +

Because some of us actually play the game.

Show nested quote +

Yes but then it shouldn't be forced in the ranked ladder. If this was just unranked it'd be perfectly fine.

A very good point. All ladder maps being wacky is far from ideal. Having separate (though perhaps intersecting) map pools in ranked/unranked would be a solid move. Especially here.

DreamOen

Spain1400 Posts

September 17 2014 08:30 GMT

#392

Steppes of war 6pool, Kulas Ravine blink, Desert Oasis Banshee, etc etc. Good ol' times. Oh and of course, metalopolis lift to the gold , bring them strats back lolz.

Dapper_Cad

United Kingdom964 Posts

September 17 2014 08:33 GMT

#393

On September 17 2014 16:30 Meavis wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 17 2014 16:27 Dapper_Cad wrote:

On September 17 2014 10:30 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:

On September 17 2014 09:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:
A map should aimed at simple things like being balanced, promoting counter-attack based and positional play, and not favoring any strategy to the point of becoming dull. You don't need to "shake the meta" to do such things.

All those ideas are not "simple things" at all. To promote counter-attack you need to have more economical path. If the attacker travels longer to attack one location from different path while the defender has a shorter travel the location (not the map) is to have a defender's advantage. This sounds simple. But add in the constrains of "you need to take a defensible third", a ramp has to be with in certain distance from the natural, you cannot have more than 3 ways to blink in/ fly in, you cannot have too many ramps chock points, you cannot do without chokes at strategic locations etc. "Standard" maps essentially limited to a map that cannot have 3rds next to each other (Deadwing on Cross Spawn), natural ramps has to be far enough from each other while the additional 4+ bases has to be closer to each other (or your "counter-attack" will become base trade), aerial/cliff distance cannot be too far from walking distance (think scrap station to habitation station, why this constraint even exist?).

The tight restrictions on map makers is the single biggest problem that Starcraft 2 suffers from. It is verging on the bizarre that BW map makers had more options with a map editor made in 1998 -although of course it was hacked into greater effectiveness over the years- than modern map makers have with a map editor made in 2010.

Sure, primarily this is a situation that results from decisions that are essentially irreversible; chokes don't restrict the time it takes for troops to move across the map, sentrys allows terrain remodelling and medivacs are made on mass allowing terrans to "skip" terrain virtually every game, warp-ins also "skip" terrain and can be done anywhere with little preparation and at no extra cost, etc. etc.

However, there is also a lack of adventurousness on the part of the community that is acting a break on map innovation -for example any map on which win rates fall more than a few percentage points outside of 50/50 is considered "broken" or that patches are expected within weeks of race balance falling a few percentage points out of 50/50.

This is a step in the right direction. There's no doubt there are going to be some nightmares in there, but any player that tells you they know exactly how every map from 2010 will play out in the modern game is wildly over-estimating their predictive ability. The brutal and messy arrival of some crazed maps (old or new) might actually result in the discovery of a new meta. It's incredibly unlikely and simply lifting a few restrictions on map makers (no regions, standard minerals) for a few maps in the off season would be a much better move, but still. This is better than nothing.

you raise some fair points, but what are you expecting honestly? blink, forcefields, medivacs, warp ins and all the stuff that maps have addapted over time aren't gonna change all of a sudden.

HotS. Every decision that the designers make should start with the question "What does this do to map design?". Some of those decisions might be to change existing units. That said, that wasn't the point. You can do a lot with maps that isn't done even with the current restrictions that the design creates.

On September 17 2014 16:36 Teoita wrote:

Show nested quote +

Appearently some people have decided that 4 year old maps that we know create awful games are in fact innovative and refereshing.

We aren't certain of that, we can't be. They might be innovative and refreshing. I'll grant, it's unlikely, but it's possible.

EmtKoloSSaL

Italy5 Posts

September 17 2014 08:44 GMT

#394

I agree with putting some old maps replacing those who nobody wants to play in. I would like to see in the poll:

- Neo Planet S LE;
- Bel'Shir Vestige LE;
- Whirlwind LE;
- Frost LE;
- Newkirk Precinct TE;
- Habitation Station LE;
- Akilon Wastes LE;
- Daybreak LE;
- Yeonsu LE;
- Derelict Watcher TE.

styleworks79

United States127 Posts

September 17 2014 08:46 GMT

#395

i got my vote on antiga and daybreak!

akaMadMike

Norway93 Posts

September 17 2014 08:49 GMT

#396

#1 Metalopolis with cross spawns only (will probably only be ZvZ map)

#2 Cloud Kingdom, was always fun and seemed balanced enough. If any changes I would suggest having two (big) ramps on the ridge in the middle. One straight path from one natural to the other does never lead to more fun gameplay.

#3 Antiga Shipyard, Snutes gold bust was always a blast to watch!

#4 Ohana, who didn't like the familiy beach?

#5 The Shattered Temple, think this could be a fun map if gold base was redone to a normal base and rocks removed. Corner bases blocked by rocks could perhaps be gold bases. Also need cross spawns only.

#6 Polar Night, winter is coming - so we need snow maps!

#7 Bel'Shir Vestige SE, because of good memories!

sigm

192 Posts

September 17 2014 08:59 GMT

#397

No love for Blistering Sands? I'd love to see that badboy go back into the pool just to remind new players that it was once considered a viable map.

Meavis

Netherlands1300 Posts

September 17 2014 09:03 GMT

#398

On September 17 2014 17:33 Dapper_Cad wrote:

Show nested quote +

We aren't certain of that, we can't be. They might be innovative and refreshing. I'll grant, it's unlikely, but it's possible.

when all-ins are brokenly overpowered, the only meta that can arise from that is kill them before they kill you.

sigm

192 Posts

September 17 2014 09:14 GMT

#399

On September 17 2014 18:03 Meavis wrote:
when all-ins are brokenly overpowered, the only meta that can arise from that is kill them before they kill you.

Exactly. And that leads to quick, exciting and dynamic games. We need more of those. We also need Blizzard to port Blood Bath over to SC2 as well, that map is the absolute apex of fast & furious action.

Gamlet

Ukraine336 Posts

September 17 2014 09:24 GMT

#400

Entombed Valley , Cloud Kingdom , Shakuras , Taldarim

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