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On September 10 2014 12:57 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:50 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:47 Nebuchad wrote:On September 10 2014 12:42 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:37 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:36 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:35 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:34 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad. it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit. Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain. the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about. Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean. On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there. Yes, but they are given the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and they will do better. If you take the Huk vs Check game, people are saying it was because it was an NA player in the NA league, even though both sides tried really hard to throw the game. Expect everyone is pointing out that it was Huks play and sort of ignoring the fact that Check threw pretty hard too. When its a Korean player in a Korean league, its because they had a bad day. When its NA players in the NA league, its because the players are terrible and will never improve. no one ignored that check played like crap. also, no one really thinks much of check anyway.
I was pointing to the guy who made the argument in this thread, rather the the LR thread. Also I would point out if the games are going to be that shit, the region locking won't matter, because mediocre Koreans will be replaced with NA players.
Except Polt.
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On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote:
Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
you're also missing the point completely
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On September 10 2014 13:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:57 lichter wrote:On September 10 2014 12:50 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:47 Nebuchad wrote:On September 10 2014 12:42 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:37 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:36 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:35 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:34 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:
[quote]
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad. it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit. Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain. the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about. Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean. On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there. Yes, but they are given the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and they will do better. If you take the Huk vs Check game, people are saying it was because it was an NA player in the NA league, even though both sides tried really hard to throw the game. Expect everyone is pointing out that it was Huks play and sort of ignoring the fact that Check threw pretty hard too. When its a Korean player in a Korean league, its because they had a bad day. When its NA players in the NA league, its because the players are terrible and will never improve. no one ignored that check played like crap. also, no one really thinks much of check anyway. I was pointing to the guy who made the argument in this thread, rather the the LR thread. Also I would point out if the games are going to be that shit, the region locking won't matter, because mediocre Koreans will be replaced with NA players. Except Polt.
Asia can save NA  The NA server is a healthy SC2 scene, North America itself is probably not.
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On September 10 2014 12:31 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:29 bo1b wrote:
To all of you talking shit regarding catz opinion, did you see flash vs true, or drg vs soo g1 from the gsl group d recently? DRG vs soO was an amazing display of decision making. And FlaSh vs TRUE was textbook map abuse in g1 and style abuser in g2 (TRUE always go for a heavy queen + speed ling play in TvZ, guess what's really good against it: hellbats). The fact you can't see the brillance in those 3 games just speak for yourself. (the 2rax was really really good)
Are you fucking serious? game one of drg vs soo was pathetic. Also, you're seriously implying that building hellbats and moving out with them is a thing that only kespa players can do?
Notice I didn't talk about any other game from that night btw.
Frankly it's pathetic that people can't acknowledge that koreans sometimes play awfully, below the level of foreigners even. Because watching soo run 8+ banelings into 2 of drgs and lose them all wasn't amazing micro by drg, it was horrendous micro by soo.
And to clarify, I'm not talking about the great decisions made by soo flash drg or true, we're pretty clearly talking about the horrendous decisions made by them. If you put g1 of drg vs soo on live broadcast and said drg was being played by some random na pro, it wouldn't be hard to believe it. Which is the point catz is making, and the point you're unable to argue against.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I actually agree that 80% wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but Catz is overstating his opinion. Giving specific examples of players and matches, such as this Huk vs Check game, or Snute vs Flash, or any other matchup doesn't prove any point, one way or another. The mean level of play is what matters, since obviously there will be duds and great games from all regions. The fact is, the standard of play in Korea is higher. Most of the time, that means better games.
However, for casual audiences level of play doesn't matter as much. All that matters is their enjoyment of matches, and that is determined by more than just skill level. Skill, circumstances, and the players involved (local favorites, etc) all matter to a person's enjoyment. That's why the "decreased skill level = decreased viewers" argument likely won't hold. If it does, it definitely won't have a linear relationship.
The problem is, he is arguing this point on TL. The posters most likely to reply watch more games, play more ladder, and have different priorities watching a game. Whether their understanding of skill level is real or delusional is beside the point; their opinion on skill level affects their enjoyment of the game. Just as many casual fans choose to watch games because of their favorite local heroes, many on TL watch specific players expecting higher level play. Whether or not they actually understand all the depths of skill on display is irrelevant; the fact is the skill level in Korean tournaments is higher, and that knowledge and expectation affects how they enjoy the games. It's entirely subjective, and the reason is no less legitimate than watching someone because he comes from the same country.
However true it is that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between top foreigners and middling Koreans and that the gap is slowly closing, you are preaching to the wrong choir.
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Canada28396 Posts
On September 10 2014 13:32 lichter wrote:
I actually agree that 80% wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but Catz is overstating his opinion. Giving specific examples of players and matches, such as this Huk vs Check game, or Snute vs Flash, or any other matchup doesn't prove any point, one way or another. The mean level of play is what matters, since obviously there will be duds and great games from all regions. The fact is, the standard of play in Korea is higher. Most of the time, that means better games.
However, for casual audiences level of play doesn't matter as much. All that matters is their enjoyment of matches, and that is determined by more than just skill level. Skill, circumstances, and the players involved (local favorites, etc) all matter to a person's enjoyment. That's why the "decreased skill level = decreased viewers" argument likely won't hold. If it does, it definitely won't have a linear relationship.
The problem is, he is arguing this point on TL. The posters most likely to reply watch more games, play more ladder, and have different priorities watching a game. Whether their understanding of skill level is real or delusional is beside the point; their opinion on skill level affects their enjoyment of the game. Just as many casual fans choose to watch games because of their favorite local heroes, many on TL watch specific players expecting higher level play. Whether or not they actually understand all the depths of skill on display is irrelevant; the fact is the skill level in Korean tournaments is higher, and that knowledge and expectation affects how they enjoy the games. It's entirely subjective, and the reason is no less legitimate than watching someone because he comes from the same country.
However true it is that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between top foreigners and middling Koreans and that the gap is slowly closing, you are preaching to the wrong choir.
I think more like 50% of fans would be able to tell the difference between top level and games like Huk vs Check. Your average Starcraft fan is pretty frickin dedicated. I would say, however, that many of the people who could tell the difference just don't care and prefer the foreigner personalities/storylines/ect over tip-top level play. I love me some Korean action, but I'm sure a lot of people aren't as picky and would rather see a local do well or something like that.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote:
You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
Please explain Shoutcraft TB kindly hosted, please..
so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite?
On September 10 2014 13:08 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:56 Wasaru wrote:
Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey! you're also missing the point completely
what point is he missing? You said you beat all the top level koreans pretty damn often, name dropping soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG..etc.
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and so it's fair to assume that watching you is like watching soulkey? Lol...
And if your point that the skill difference is so similar stands true, then why would there be a need for this region lock? And why is every bad foreigner advocating it desperately? Explain that one.
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I think there is a definitive skill gap between the whole stereotypical foreigners vs koreans because of results. You might think because there's just more korean pros, and it's true and foreigners might produce better results because of region lock but unless you have more foreigners prove they can beat b-team koreans... koreans will always be perceived as better. I guess you can glorify foreigners in an korean-less tournament and then have that foreigner defeat a few koreans in a small amount of games. That happened before but that's the real illusion in my opinion. The reason I want to watch certain games is because I'm expecting good games. Casters glorifying players in the games might help with viewership but it's not really what drives the interest. I mean I've seen foreigners with good games and play, and the game is volatile enough for players that practice less can win because the stars aligned and things worked out, but the results show that it's really hard to win against koreans. There's jinro, stephano, and a few others that were interesting to watch at the time I guess but the foreigner hope is still as low as ever in recent times. The region lock sort of reduces the chances of us seeing such a thing happen... say a foreigner winning a tournament with many koreans.
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United States33390 Posts
On September 10 2014 13:38 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote:
You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
Please explain Shoutcraft TB kindly hosted, please.. so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite?
you should prolly read this
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/438702-shoutcraft-america-winter-post-mortem
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On September 10 2014 13:55 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 13:38 dacimvrl wrote:On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote:
You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
Please explain Shoutcraft TB kindly hosted, please.. so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite? you should prolly read this http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/438702-shoutcraft-america-winter-post-mortem
yeah, exactly, max concurrent count = 26314 lol.....
SPL final day = 130+k concurrent on just one of the chinese streams.
you should pbly compare that to all korean tournaments like SPL..etc. Heck, more KespaCup is coming up too, in the very odd hours for non-Asian regions, and see how much it brings.
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On September 10 2014 07:10 mikumegurine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 06:22 FeyFey wrote:On September 10 2014 06:19 Xinzoe wrote:On September 10 2014 06:16 Boucot wrote:I was hoping that TaeJa would reconsider his retirement thing, I'm disappointed. I mean, he's only 19 years old. And we'll lose Polt and Bomber next year too because of the military, that's sad.  its more of a health issue for taeja, his wrists are really bad, when he streamed, he would stretch after everygame. he even had to take a break during ATC finals which shows how severe it is. I hope he can win Blizzcon and buy new wrists from the money. Stay away SoS ! buy new wrists? like robotic wrists? Cyborg Taeja?
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I was never a particularly good player (okay, I suck at SC2), but I can still tell the difference between a high level Korean vs Korean game versus a Foreigner vs Foreigner game (with only a small number of foreigner outliers).
In a KvK game, you'll almost always see at least one player out on the map, except in some PvPs. Whoever has map control will use it. There will be repeated harassment (drops, runbys) and the economy for both players will pretty continuously expand unless actively being denied. Major engagements include a large number of micro actions such as target firing and spell casting as well as spreading or retreating specific units.
In FvF, you'll still often see two players holed up in their own bases. Neither player is harassing, both are still just hanging back and building their deathballs. You'll often only get one engagement and in that engagement you'll rarely see more than just rudimentary micro. Alternatively, there are some foreigners who are stylistically harassment/micro based, but very few (if any) can maintain spending and economic growth during that harassment.
I'm sure you can cherry pick examples of great games by two Foreigners or poor games by two Koreans, but I believe what I just said will hold true for the vast majority of games. It's the same reason why a foreigner can occasionally beat a Korean, but the Koreans win the vast majority. There are noticeable differences even for casual fans.
I'd love to see a study done by an unbiased person that took normal Korean games and normal Foreigner games, then erased all the names, and had a wide assortment of SC2 viewers watch those games and then had them guess whether it was a foreigner or Korean game. I'd bet the results would not be random at all.
It's not that I have anything against region lock. We were already GSL-lite and that really wasn't good for anyone. It wasn't the best games and we didn't have our local heroes to root for. I think there could be a benefit to making NA more NA based if WCS-NA is smart about their broadcasting by giving players a storyline + exposure. WCS-NA can be like MLS compared to the Premier league that is WCS-KR.
If they try to hype WCS-NA based on skill-level, then I think it's doomed.
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On September 10 2014 14:04 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 13:55 Waxangel wrote:On September 10 2014 13:38 dacimvrl wrote:On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote:
You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
Please explain Shoutcraft TB kindly hosted, please.. so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite? you should prolly read this http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/438702-shoutcraft-america-winter-post-mortem yeah, exactly, max concurrent count = 26314 lol..... SPL final day = 130+k concurrent on just one of the chinese streams. you should pbly compare that to all korean tournaments like SPL..etc. Heck, more KespaCup is coming up too, in the very odd hours for non-Asian regions, and see how much it brings.
Apart from the fact that Shoutcraft had considerable problems due to forfeits etc, comparing it to SPL is retarded. They are completely different categories of events. Its like saying that WCS America has a much higher viewer count than the OlimoLeague.
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I don't get the point of Catz' whole "most fans wouldn't notice the difference between koreans or foreigners playing"-argument.
When I'm saying I want to see the best games possible, I'm not claiming, I could identify if korean pros are playing or not when the names are blacked out (even this is a mere assumption - to say this, it would have to be tested).
But what I can see, is, when something is really well done. Perhaps I miss many details because I'm a noob, but I'm able to recognize (for example) that Marus bio-micro dancing around a ton of storms and therefore winning with a smaller army is frickin' amazingly awesome. I would notice that awesomeness, even if I wouldn't know, who is playing. Those moments of awe are more likely to happen watching the best possible players. I might not notice the difference knowingly but I would see more really good actions and would experience more joy watching toplevel koreans play.
I'm not saying, that we won't see such good actions from foreigners - which is why it's probably hard to tell the difference between good foreigners and koreans - but we'll see it more from top koreans, which is why I want to see them playing.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On September 10 2014 14:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 14:04 dacimvrl wrote:On September 10 2014 13:55 Waxangel wrote:On September 10 2014 13:38 dacimvrl wrote:On September 10 2014 11:17 ROOTCatZ wrote:
You're completely missing the point I'm trying to make again, I am not talking about playstyle of course everyone has different playstyles, im merely pointing out the gap in skill isn't as big as people think, and a game between two top forgeiners can be just as exciting and interesting as two top koreans, I've repeated this about 20 times now,
Please explain Shoutcraft TB kindly hosted, please.. so exciting that the viewer count is abysmal, amirite? you should prolly read this http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/438702-shoutcraft-america-winter-post-mortem yeah, exactly, max concurrent count = 26314 lol..... SPL final day = 130+k concurrent on just one of the chinese streams. you should pbly compare that to all korean tournaments like SPL..etc. Heck, more KespaCup is coming up too, in the very odd hours for non-Asian regions, and see how much it brings. Apart from the fact that Shoutcraft had considerable problems due to forfeits etc, comparing it to SPL is retarded. They are completely different categories of events. Its like saying that WCS America has a much higher viewer count than the OlimoLeague.
If you think that argument is retarded, wait til you see the argument that says top NA pros are basically the same as top koreans.. oh wait..
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Ok look. I spent a great deal of time casting and watching North American Grand Master play in my time as a SC2 shoutcaster.
Foreigner play CAN be entertaining, but there is a HUGE difference between it and top level Korean level play which I am most accustomed to watching since that is what I prefer to watch.
It's not hard to notice a difference. CatZ is SERIOUSLY underestimating either A: the dedication of the fanbase or B: the difference in noticeable spectator value between foreign play and top level Korean play if he's holding his statement to be true.
I'm going to go with B. simply because I'd like to give CatZ the benefit of the doubt in not blatantly insulting all of us.
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With the amount of variance that exists in Starcraft 2, I don't think its plausible to argue that the skill gap isn't large. The results are far too stacked in their favor
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So wait, wait, wait, wait... wait. CatZ is saying that if a person were to show me games played in NA/EU/KR where the casters are muted, overlays are all the same and names were hidden that I couldn't tell difference? Going from watching GSL to WCS AM is like going from watching men's football to women's. There is a reason why I just completely stopped watching and caring about WCS AM; the games where hardly half as entertaining as EU and a joke compared to KR. Maybe 1 in 20 games were good, simply not enough to justify my time watching the rest of the crap on it.
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Just because top Koreans can have serious blunders doesn't mean we can't distinguish between Koreans and foreigners.
The only distinctive difference between korean and foreigners are their level of play.
The worst games from Koreans are what we expect from foreigners, a lower skill level on average that has more of these mistakes occurring.
For every one mistake you are able to point out from korean players, you can simply point more out from foreigners, in average.
I may not be able to distinguish between top Koreans but between top Koreans and non scarlett level foreigners, it wouldn't be difficult at all.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
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EPT
Bullshit. Yeah, I cannot tell the difference between individual Korean players and foreigners, but I definitely can tell the difference between Korean play and Foreigner play. Hell, this and the last week there were some WCS EU RO32 after GSL RO16. Do you really want to tell me that it was the same level of play? REALLY? SERIOUSLY?!
