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On September 10 2014 12:35 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:34 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad. it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit.
Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain.
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Technically they could just create a 4th WCS region, SEA+China+Taiwan. I'm sure a lot of the koreans would rather play there than in America, and the other countries involved wouldn't really complain as it still would mean more spots for them than what they are getting now.
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On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
No, it isn't HuK just beat Check and he went 3-3 against him, Check is a former T8 player who did pretty well for himself at the highest level, and again I never claimed forgeiners are better or even as good as koreans. I could watch soO vs Flash from the other day and point out a ton of mistakes, no one can play perfect, HuK almost choked and had blunders on the last game, much like he played brilliant and outplayed his opponent completely the game just before that.
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On September 10 2014 12:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:35 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:34 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad. it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit. Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain.
the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all
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might give more opportunity for foreigners but viewership might drop considerably, unless casters blow up the games shamelessly. I guess on the flip side, the reduced content I want to watch is less which is more manageable to me anyways. But it sucks it wont be live anymore seeing as most of the content is now concentrated in korea and maybe a little in EU.
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On September 10 2014 12:36 Nebuchad wrote:
Technically they could just create a 4th WCS region, SEA+China+Taiwan. I'm sure a lot of the koreans would rather play there than in America, and the other countries involved wouldn't really complain as it still would mean more spots for them than what they are getting now.
I'd totally be in favor of this actually. Why not have 4 regions?
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On September 10 2014 12:36 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. No, it isn't HuK just beat Check and he went 3-3 against him, Check is a former T8 player who did pretty well for himself at the highest level, and again I never claimed forgeiners are better or even as good as koreans. I could watch soO vs Flash from the other day and point out a ton of mistakes, no one can play perfect, HuK almost choked and had blunders on the last game, much like he played brilliant and outplayed his opponent completely the game just before that.
the last series was pure shit. Both of them play awfully and next year it'd have been consider as some good level starcraft in the NA scene.
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On September 10 2014 12:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:36 Nebuchad wrote:
Technically they could just create a 4th WCS region, SEA+China+Taiwan. I'm sure a lot of the koreans would rather play there than in America, and the other countries involved wouldn't really complain as it still would mean more spots for them than what they are getting now. I'd totally be in favor of this actually. Why not have 4 regions?
Money, probably.
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On September 10 2014 12:38 Ctesias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On September 10 2014 12:36 Nebuchad wrote:
Technically they could just create a 4th WCS region, SEA+China+Taiwan. I'm sure a lot of the koreans would rather play there than in America, and the other countries involved wouldn't really complain as it still would mean more spots for them than what they are getting now. I'd totally be in favor of this actually. Why not have 4 regions? Money, probably.
Damn reality. Why can't everything be perfect?
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On September 10 2014 12:37 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:36 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:35 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:34 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad. it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit. Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain. the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all
Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about.
Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean.
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On September 10 2014 12:32 Gaskal wrote:
I call BS on Catz complaining about casters favoring Snute in RB - yeah they're obviously going to favor Snute because he's the better foreigner. And if it was soO doing 1 base muta it's a given that they'll hype it up instead of questioning it because, again, he's the better player.
A multiple-time 2nd place in GSL pulling off some quirky cheese vs a foreigner zerg is going to garner far more hype than if a relatively obscure foreigner zerg tries to pull it off...vs a superior zerg.
Such a bullshit argument.
Sorry it wasn't much of a complain, was trying to highlight why some people watching might think they can tell the differences between forgeiners and koreans for example, its easy to be bias towards the better player, no one is denying that snute is the better player or that he would win most BO3's but if it had been soO instead they would've hyped the match instead of trying to sound smart and predicting the outcome before the game is finished, it's no one's fault I'm sure I would my subconscious would do the same thing in casters' shoes, if I saw Flash playing vs just about any forgeiner or korean for that matter, i'd likely be looking for mistakes to explain why the non-flash player is about to lose kind of a tunnel vision effect.
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On September 10 2014 12:38 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:36 ROOTCatZ wrote:On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. No, it isn't HuK just beat Check and he went 3-3 against him, Check is a former T8 player who did pretty well for himself at the highest level, and again I never claimed forgeiners are better or even as good as koreans. I could watch soO vs Flash from the other day and point out a ton of mistakes, no one can play perfect, HuK almost choked and had blunders on the last game, much like he played brilliant and outplayed his opponent completely the game just before that. the last series was pure shit. Both of them play awfully and next year it'd have been consider as some good level starcraft in the NA scene.
You say both of them played awfully, I mean you see the hatch at 2 hp, you see the big blunders, I don't disagree, that last game especially was not good, yet you say its a counter argument to what I was saying, you're talking about a stablished KeSPA pro in Check making just as many or more mistakes than the NA player, who also had a bad game by his own standards
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On September 10 2014 12:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:37 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:36 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:35 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:34 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad. it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit. Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain. the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about. Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean.
On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there.
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On September 10 2014 12:47 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:42 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:37 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:36 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:35 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:34 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad. it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit. Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain. the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about. Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean. On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there.
Yes, but they are given the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and they will do better. If you take the Huk vs Check game, people are saying it was because it was an NA player in the NA league, even though both sides tried really hard to throw the game. Expect everyone is pointing out that it was Huks play and sort of ignoring the fact that Check threw pretty hard too.
When its a Korean player in a Korean league, its because they had a bad day.
When its NA players in the NA league, its because the players are terrible and will never improve.
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On September 10 2014 12:38 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:36 ROOTCatZ wrote:On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. No, it isn't HuK just beat Check and he went 3-3 against him, Check is a former T8 player who did pretty well for himself at the highest level, and again I never claimed forgeiners are better or even as good as koreans. I could watch soO vs Flash from the other day and point out a ton of mistakes, no one can play perfect, HuK almost choked and had blunders on the last game, much like he played brilliant and outplayed his opponent completely the game just before that. the last series was pure shit. Both of them play awfully and next year it'd have been consider as some good level starcraft in the NA scene.
Arguing anything based on a single series is completely stupid. If you looked at the series MKP played against Miniraser during the Red Bull Online qualifiers you would see play so awful that most people wondered if it actually was MKP. You wouldn't use this to argue that the level of play in Proleague is abysmal.
As to the article I'm surprised by how positive pros were overall. soO's reaction surprised me most of all. I agree that we haven't heard most of it and that it will really come down to Blizzard's execution. The suggestion that I can really get behind is the suggestion that Blizzard should try to create more opportunities to gain points in Korea, not just raise the overall amount of points awarded. There are two ways to do this. One would be to develop auxiliary tournaments in Korea, which seems fairly difficult to do. An easier solution would be to increase the number of GSLs. If there were 5 GSLs instead of 3, even with the same point counts, I could see the system work better.
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On September 10 2014 12:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:47 Nebuchad wrote:On September 10 2014 12:42 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:37 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:36 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:35 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:34 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad. it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit. Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain. the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about. Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean. On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there. Yes, but they are given the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and they will do better. If you take the Huk vs Check game, people are saying it was because it was an NA player in the NA league, even though both sides tried really hard to throw the game. Expect everyone is pointing out that it was Huks play and sort of ignoring the fact that Check threw pretty hard too. When its a Korean player in a Korean league, its because they had a bad day. When its NA players in the NA league, its because the players are terrible and will never improve.
That would be because we've witnessed the good days of the top koreans. And I would argue Huk isn't a great example to bring up in there (I know you're not the one who brought him up). Because yeah, I've seen good days from him as well, and I don't think it's fair to call him a bad player; the thing is, he is in WCS NA in this system right now, so it's not like we're getting people out to let him in, he's already in.
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Tune into Catz stream everyone.
It's like we're basically watching soulkey!
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On September 10 2014 12:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:47 Nebuchad wrote:On September 10 2014 12:42 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:37 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:36 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:35 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:34 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad. it was very entertaining but the skill level was !@#$%^&*. Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain. the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about. Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean. On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there. Yes, but they are given the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and they will do better. If you take the Huk vs Check game, people are saying it was because it was an NA player in the NA league, even though both sides tried really hard to throw the game. Expect everyone is pointing out that it was Huks play and sort of ignoring the fact that Check threw pretty hard too. When its a Korean player in a Korean league, its because they had a bad day. When its NA players in the NA league, its because the players are terrible and will never improve.
Yes I agree that 95% of viewers wouldn't notice the difference between NA player and Korean (at least if a commentator wouldn't make the mistakes obvious), but everyone using that as an argument of region-locking is missing the point. Viewer numbers are based on the perception of who the best player is, and while you too some extent can boost viewer numbers if you have a popular foreigner in play, the overall effect is gonna be negative when you add in a bunch of random medicore foreigners in the tournamnet.
Like who is the 30th best NA player and why would anyone wanna watch that guy over decent/solid koreans battling each other or the best NA players? Your not creating storyliness by removing Koreans and replacing them with medicore foreigners, rather the opposite is more likely to occur.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 10 2014 12:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:47 Nebuchad wrote:On September 10 2014 12:42 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:37 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:36 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:35 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 12:34 Plansix wrote:On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad. it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit. Well thank god the only reason these things are board cast is to entertain. the discussion you just jumped in was about skill lvl M. know it all Really, the discussion seemed to be about SC2 fans being snobs and only wanting "the best play" which is what they define it as, because even top Korean players throw games. Because thats what the originating post in the quote seems to be about. Frankly I completely agree that a lot of SC2 players are snobs, claiming they only watch the best play. But if you took the names off and didn't tell them who was playing, they could tell a top level Korean for a top Non-Korean. On a sidenote, your argument here is that when top koreans play badly they could be mistaken for foreigners playing at their standard level. Except when top koreans play badly, usually the LR threads reflect that, because people are disappointed. So there isn't much of a double standard on their part there. Yes, but they are given the benefit of the doubt that it was a mistake and they will do better. If you take the Huk vs Check game, people are saying it was because it was an NA player in the NA league, even though both sides tried really hard to throw the game. Expect everyone is pointing out that it was Huks play and sort of ignoring the fact that Check threw pretty hard too. When its a Korean player in a Korean league, its because they had a bad day. When its NA players in the NA league, its because the players are terrible and will never improve.
no one ignored that check played like crap. also, no one really thinks much of check anyway.
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On September 10 2014 12:37 Lokian wrote:
might give more opportunity for foreigners but viewership might drop considerably, unless casters blow up the games shamelessly. I guess on the flip side, the reduced content I want to watch is less which is more manageable to me anyways. But it sucks it wont be live anymore seeing as most of the content is now concentrated in korea and maybe a little in EU.
I think viewership will not drop that much, and its really bad right now so a change is called for (IEM and RBB seens to be more sucesful than WCS AM, WCS EU and GSL?).
But casters blowing up the games shamelessly would be an ilusion in my opinion. Some games in GSL are not that good (in terms of entertainment, level of play, or both) and it shows. And some games from weaker players can be great. I think CatZ could be streching things too much, but he does have a point, the gap is not as big as most people seens to perceive.
I'm under the impression that people immediatly start looking for silly mistakes when its an unkown or "average foreigner" player, all that while closing its eyes to the lack of Flash splits or stupid sOs losses, pretending it never happens. As soon as the favoured players outplays the less favoured in some way, he is overhyped by the chat, threads and even the casters that might be the less biased ones.
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EPT
