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On September 10 2014 10:31 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 09:42 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 09:19 ETisME wrote:
I think it's pretty easy to tell the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners, maybe with exception of very top tier foreigners like snute and scarlett. for most top players it's pretty easy to say who's playing in some match ups, a lot of them have their own style(who would confuse a ZvP with Solar/MC and one with Snute/Rain...). But ofc Avilo and FlaSh both mech the same way according to Catz (who's maybe a professional entertainer but i doubt he lives with the money his skill brings) You're missing the point, I could show you a match between a top forgeiner and a top korean with the names blacked out, tell you its both koreans, and I much doubt you'd be able to refute it unless I told you this beforehand. Good point you make, I am a professional entretainer, and yet I play many top level koreans like soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG, and I take games from them more often than you'd think, I also play on the KR GM ladder, and I know I beat KeSPA / Code S pros fairly often, Does this mean I'll win a tournament? no, does it mean im favored against these players in a BO3 or BO5 ? hell no, but the gap really isn't as big as people think, if that's me - as an entretainer, you can likely imagine the gap between good forgeiners and koreans is even smaller. The point I'm making is, if you watched me beating soO in a macro game with the names blacked out and I told you it wasn't me but instead some other korean, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in a casted match. I am not looking to offend anyone's knowledge, I know I'd struggle telling them appart myself, at the top level there's always gonna be brilliant plays, there's always going to be big blunders. Koreans are better than forgeiners on average, without a shadow of a doubt, but the point I am making is, it's all in tiny details, more often than not mechanical that you would likely not notice in a casted game, if flash keeps his minerals bellow 100 and bunny keeps it bellow 150, that could be the difference between a win and a lose, ONE extra unit will make a giant difference in a big engagement and completely turn it around, I am saying that if Flash would have 150 vs soO's 150 supply and Bunny had 148 supply vs Snute's 148 supply in a game where nothing else happens on the same map in parallel worlds, you would not be able to tell and be like WAIT THAT'S NOT FLASH THAT'S BUNNY! without examining the replay or knowing either playstyle well enough to identify them for that. I am not arguing you couldn't tell the difference between players because of playstyle, you could tell the difference between almost any 2 players if you know their playstyle well, that's far from the point I am trying to make.
oh wow that was a huge circle you went around in
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On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I think Catz and you have a point, but to that end, it's also rather sad that it is that hard to tell the play of a Code S Kespa player from an NA Master player for most people if it was a blind viewing. The game should make the best players obvious because they do things other players just can't do. Brood War had this just given the demands of the game. Many sports are the same way. If anything the above is an indictment of either the SC2 skill ceiling or how the demands of the game are portrayed (or not) to the viewers on the screen. I'm sure it's a bit of both.
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China6329 Posts
Chinese and Taiwanese player's opinions should be coming this week if I can get them done.
Also + Show Spoiler +
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On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
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On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
Hey, could be soO vs Rain on a bad day.
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Life: ling control
Jaedong: muta control
Polt: nexus sniper, "Polt" viking
soO: zerg that doesn't die
Etc.
Oh and then we get called snobs. Charming
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On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1.
That's just BS.
I'm absolutely horrible at football but I have no problem telling apart MLS and EPL.
I'm sure you are not a professional hockey player, are you telling me you can't tell the difference between NHL and Czech Extraliga.
Most of the announcer even coach and manager for pro sports never played it at highest level, they might as well just all quit now since obviously they have no idea WTF they talking about.
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Check vs HuK was pretty bad imo so in my opinion there is a quite large difference in overall skill vs mid-tier nonkoreans vs top koreans. You know it's bad when casters call a game "scrappy".
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On September 10 2014 12:22 Ctesias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. Hey, could be soO vs Rain on a bad day.
you remember the gsl challenges thing where they played with gloves and had to blow up balloons ? maybe with that kind of handicap :D
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Wax so bm..
The part I find slightly amusing is people seem to assume that when Koreans leave, NA will suddenly and miraculously have a robust scene where local players produce high level and interesting games.
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Again, you're arguing as if this was trading Heart for Neeb. This isn't. This is keeping Neeb, which we already have, and trading Heart for someone whose name I don't know yet who made it to like Ro8 of the qualifiers this year. I'm sure it's hard to tell the difference between Heart and Neeb. Between Heart and that yet unnamed guy, I wouldn't make the same argument.
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To all of you talking shit regarding catz opinion, did you see flash vs true, or drg vs soo g1 from the gsl group d recently?
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Hahah, I love Kane. What a great guy.
Also, Taeja with the greatest interview answer of his career. I suspect Wax may have done something 'creative' to get that.
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On September 10 2014 12:29 bo1b wrote:
To all of you talking shit regarding catz opinion, did you see flash vs true, or drg vs soo g1 from the gsl group d recently?
DRG vs soO was an amazing display of decision making. And FlaSh vs TRUE was textbook map abuse in g1 and style abuser in g2 (TRUE always go for a heavy queen + speed ling play in TvZ, guess what's really good against it: hellbats). The fact you can't see the brillance in those 3 games just speak for yourself. (the 2rax was really really good)
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On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
Ok how about we watch basketball, hockey, tennis, golf, etc etc with all the players keyed out and lets just watch the ball? Perception due to players and brands will always be part of the sports industry, on this earth, at least.
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On September 10 2014 12:07 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I think Catz and you have a point, but to that end, it's also rather sad that it is that hard to tell the play of a Code S Kespa player from an NA Master player for most people if it was a blind viewing. The game should make the best players obvious because they do things other players just can't do. Brood War had this just given the demands of the game. Many sports are the same way. If anything the above is an indictment of either the SC2 skill ceiling or how the demands of the game are portrayed (or not) to the viewers on the screen. I'm sure it's a bit of both.
This is in large part a fault of the casting of games more than anything. The best players in the world do things that lesser players do not, however, these small differences in play are often overlooked by casters and viewers alike. Why you ask? Because many of these minor nuances / efficiencies are elements of play that only high level players would notice. It's easy to point out blunders like mismicro and supply blocks, but it takes a high level player to point out more minor details in regards to build order, unit positioning, and various reactions to scouting information etc. Most viewers cannot notice these differences themselves, and unfortunately a lot of casters don't understand the game well enough to notice them either (and subsequently inform the viewers). It's for this precise reason I enjoy watching events like Homestory Cup so much. Insight into games from a pro-player perspective is far more interesting than listening to someone essentially reiterating what is happening on screen. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of people would rather hear casters babble nonsensically about things unrelated to starcraft than listen to deeper analysis of the game (I'm looking at you Tasteless).
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I call BS on Catz complaining about casters favoring Snute in RB - yeah they're obviously going to favor Snute because he's the better foreigner. And if it was soO doing 1 base muta it's a given that they'll hype it up instead of questioning it because, again, he's the better player.
A multiple-time 2nd place in GSL pulling off some quirky cheese vs a foreigner zerg is going to garner far more hype than if a relatively obscure foreigner zerg tries to pull it off...vs a superior zerg.
Such a bullshit argument.
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On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point.
That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
Also, Wax rekt by Scarlett.
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On September 10 2014 12:01 orvinreyes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 10:31 ROOTCatZ wrote:On September 10 2014 09:42 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 09:19 ETisME wrote:
I think it's pretty easy to tell the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners, maybe with exception of very top tier foreigners like snute and scarlett. for most top players it's pretty easy to say who's playing in some match ups, a lot of them have their own style(who would confuse a ZvP with Solar/MC and one with Snute/Rain...). But ofc Avilo and FlaSh both mech the same way according to Catz (who's maybe a professional entertainer but i doubt he lives with the money his skill brings) You're missing the point, I could show you a match between a top forgeiner and a top korean with the names blacked out, tell you its both koreans, and I much doubt you'd be able to refute it unless I told you this beforehand. Good point you make, I am a professional entretainer, and yet I play many top level koreans like soO, PartinG, Solar, DRG, and I take games from them more often than you'd think, I also play on the KR GM ladder, and I know I beat KeSPA / Code S pros fairly often, Does this mean I'll win a tournament? no, does it mean im favored against these players in a BO3 or BO5 ? hell no, but the gap really isn't as big as people think, if that's me - as an entretainer, you can likely imagine the gap between good forgeiners and koreans is even smaller. The point I'm making is, if you watched me beating soO in a macro game with the names blacked out and I told you it wasn't me but instead some other korean, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in a casted match. I am not looking to offend anyone's knowledge, I know I'd struggle telling them appart myself, at the top level there's always gonna be brilliant plays, there's always going to be big blunders. Koreans are better than forgeiners on average, without a shadow of a doubt, but the point I am making is, it's all in tiny details, more often than not mechanical that you would likely not notice in a casted game, if flash keeps his minerals bellow 100 and bunny keeps it bellow 150, that could be the difference between a win and a lose, ONE extra unit will make a giant difference in a big engagement and completely turn it around, I am saying that if Flash would have 150 vs soO's 150 supply and Bunny had 148 supply vs Snute's 148 supply in a game where nothing else happens on the same map in parallel worlds, you would not be able to tell and be like WAIT THAT'S NOT FLASH THAT'S BUNNY! without examining the replay or knowing either playstyle well enough to identify them for that. I am not arguing you couldn't tell the difference between players because of playstyle, you could tell the difference between almost any 2 players if you know their playstyle well, that's far from the point I am trying to make. oh wow that was a huge circle you went around in
yeah sometimes I just start typing and follow my train of thought until I stop, I should read what I write more often to avoid redundance
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On September 10 2014 12:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 12:15 sAsImre wrote:On September 10 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote:
Catz shares an opinion I've had for a long time on the subject. The vocal minority will always whine about "only wanting to watch the best players", when they themselves wouldn't be able to tell the difference most of the time, no matter how much they claim to be able to. The expectations set by the names involved in a starcraft match, and the way a match is casted, usually has a far greater impact on a typical viewer's thoughts on said match than the play itself. Set up two high ranking GM foreigners against each other, claim they are high level koreans, and then hype every good move made in the match, and 99% of the viewerbase wouldn't know any better. 98% of the player base isn't even Masters level on ladder. There are still a lot of people who watch sc2 that aren't even ranked in 1v1. From the perspective of the observer, it can be very hard to tell.
I enjoy the top level of play as much as the next avid starcraft 2 fan, and enjoy watching the top players in the GSL..... but when it comes to play a step down from the top, I'd much rather watch local favourites and foreign hopes than B-level korean no-names.
I think it comes down to some people being, what I'd like to call, Starcraft snobs. They have a preconceived notion about a particular match based on the players involved, and let this preconceived notion heavily influence their enjoyment/appreciation of the match. It's like being a wine snob. Just because a wine is more expensive, doesn't make it better. Wine experts would disagree, until you remove the labels... then they can't accurately tell the difference. It has been proven many times.
watching the awful play between Check and Huk right now is enough to disprove your point. That series was great, I am not sure I see the point. Oh wait, personal opinion, my bad.
it was very entertaining but the skill level was shit. being slapped by kim didn't stop you to be an arrogant ass i see.
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EPT
