On September 05 2014 17:38 kimaphan wrote: Hi TL.net!
As much as I would like to address all of your questions and concerns, the reality is we're still finalizing the details of WCS 2015 with our partners. We wanted to share the more important changes immediately so players can start planning for next year. More information on the residency rules and requirements will be communicated to the impacted players directly and will also be updated in our official handbook for 2015.
It's safe to say that the changes in progress will have an impact on the points distribution, which is currently being assessed. We will be sharing a comprehensive WCS 2015 announcement later this year.
Thank you for your continued support and feedback! We really appreciate the StarCraft II community <3
.kim
Sounds promising for more points for GSL. Here's hoping.
I'm sorry but more points for GSL won't even scratch the surface in repairing the damage that a region lock has inflicted on the Korean scene.
What the Korean scene needs to repair the damage is the return of the OSL (or another league equivalent to the GSL), and other weekend tournaments in Korea. But this will most likely not happen, if it is to happen the Blizzard will definitely have to support it.
On September 05 2014 17:24 sharkie wrote: This is the best possible solution.
Now if prize money gets adapted to this change its literally perfect. Why is there so much discussion about it going on?
Because clearly your conclusion is not agreed upon by everyone.
But why? Getting a work visa is not that hard and isn't it obvious that players that play their qualifiers in Korea and then only fly to NA/EU for the Ro16+ is a stupid system?
Well, It'd be even more stupid to basically kill the Korean scene by forcing ALL the Koreans to play in Korea. During Proleague most Koreans won't go abroad too often, only 32 players will be in Code S most likely, 3 Code S per season... I don't think it's a fair format. Koreans will have a harder time qualifying for Code A than players in WCS NA will have to win the premier league.
"Kill the Korean scene by forcing ALL koreans to play in korea"?
You obviously haven't even read the post.
1) Koreans can play whereever they want as long as they reside there. Thats the whole point of "regional" tournaments. 2) So we are "killing" the korean scene by foring them to abide the rules that all other players from other regions have to follow? Like others have pointed out earlier in this thread GSL forces you to stay in korea for the whole tournament if you want to compete in it. Effectively "forcing" foreigners to play in their countries, sad for the koreans that they can't just take a plane to AM and steal all that regions price money in two weeks and then just fly home anymore.
Its a very fair format and it is the very point behind actually having a regional system, AM has money invested in it. Why should korea just steal it away, let them play in their region, not AMs fault that korea doesn't invest in their ówn scene.
If you think people can just up and move their entire lives to somewhere else because Blizzard decided to region lock WCS, then you're delusional.
1) The level of play in America will be an absolute joke. There will also be no reason for WCS AM players to ever improve, because they'll be playing against Americans the entire time. There's no challenge. Qxc said it best when he said that they don't need the Koreans OUT of WCS, they need them to stick around consistently enough to raise the level of play. 2) Korea NEEDS another tournament. GSL is NOT enough to saturate the Korean scene and retirements will flood in like crazy if these changes are implemented. There is no chance for 99% of Koreans in GSL and there is no hope for anyone to come through. 3) The WCS finals will be an absolute joke of a tournament. It'll be Americans and Europeans, who had neither incentive nor possibility to improve getting absolutely SLAUGHTERED by the best of the best Koreans. That's not interesting. You can have that at any given foreign event. Blizzcon loses its status as the biggest finals of the year to just another weekend tournament where you'll already be able to narrow down the winner to about 5-10 players, depending on how many good Koreans make it.
HORRIBLE changes in my opinion.
I have never agreed with DLO this much but that just shows how ridiculous these changes are.
On September 05 2014 15:54 iamcaustic wrote: Fantastic news all around. It's about time there was real regional lock. For the people thinking this is a bad thing, let me explain why it's actually important; let's look at Korea to explain.
Koreans are known as being the best SC2 players, and for good reason. The reason they dominate the scene, however, is not due to some genetic trait, but rather cash flow and infrastructure. Players and teams are actually able to invest more of their time into being good at the game, and can afford coaching salaries and such.
Thinking WCS region lock magically reduces skill requirements for players is ludicrous; their training regime to win will still involve playing against Koreans (probably a lot of KR server, for example). The best foreigners don't win against Koreans because they face Koreans in tournaments once in a while, they win because they can beat those Koreans on ladder and in practice. What actually happens with region lock is that the tournament prize money gets infused into the local scene, rather than all the cash getting outsourced to Korea to further finance their dominance. Home-grown infrastructure is necessary if we ever want non-Koreans to be relevant at the highest level of play, and region lock is a step in the right direction to make it happen.
A simple economics example would be protectionism. Let's take the Korean auto market for example; when companies like Kia were just getting started, Korea put tariffs on imported vehicles to give the local underdogs a fighting chance to build up their infrastructure. Nowadays, Kia ships vehicles across the globe. Without that protectionism, everyone would have just bought Hondas and such. In the same way, we want to give Western teams a chance to build themselves up and get the infrastructure going, so that in the future they can compete at the highest level around the world on their own two feet.
Yeah and protectionism doesn't work...that's the whole point.
This is a fairly shopworn argument at this point. Have regional leagues is not protectionism. There is a reason the local football clubs here in Sweden don't have to play against champion's league contenders just to be sustainable. There is absolutely nothing wrong with regional tournaments as a concept. Implementation is the crux. As long as Korea is recognised as the most difficult and prestigious region, and is allotted appropriate rewards, this is the best solution by far.
On September 05 2014 19:42 D.Devil wrote: Very confused by the people who think that all Koreans are going to return to WCS KR now... becoming a legal resident is not that difficult at all – what the region lock will mainly do is discourage players who are not committed to the region they participate in.
again, legal resident is very difficult in esports because esports is not recognized by visa. Hyun fighted around 5 months with visa to get a 1year housing permission in germany. 90days might not be difficult, it begins at 180days.
There is no formal requirement for athlete visas. It is perfectly fine to go a "normal" immigration route, which should not be too much of an issue for Korean pro-gamers employed by organizations with offices in the US. In Europe, this is even easier, particularly because nobody is forced to become a resident of Germany, but countries such as Ukraine work fine, too.
// Of course, being forced to move your entire life to a different continent is a big step and it will scare away players who "just want to give it a try" – which is fine, because it's going to ensure that players are committed to their region also in terms of personal promotion. The key players will take a leap, not least due to pressure by their organizations. My bet is that we will see at least 6 Koreans in WCS AM and even more in EU.
GG NA, you were almost relevant for a little while... Region lock is the dumbest thing ever. All top foreigners commented on the fact that having koreans in their region has improved their play and pushed them to improve. Why take away their top tier practice? Horrible. Just horrible.
On September 05 2014 19:07 sharkie wrote: If you want examples open up your local newspaper and read stories about sports you have never ever heard before. I read them a lot where athletes have their residence in China or Vietnam just to live out their dream.
Don't blame me for forgetting their names
Actually, the analogy applied correctly to this scenario is non-koreans moving to Korea to become the best they can be (like Jinro/Idra/Haypro/TLO in early SC2)... not getting hand outs from Blizzard
Wait, the GSL wasn't always region locked with its offline qualifiers? Its funny how it was way easier for a Korean to get a Blizzard sponsored flight to NA to compete in WCS than it was for a NA player to get to get one to Korea. I guess its reasonable to expect players from NA to play on the KR server and then try out in Korea after spending a couple grand on fights.
But now that the tables are turned, everyone is super grump because the one way Blizzard Tran-Pacific Taxi service has come to an end.
Maybe now they can use the money from plane tickets to sponsor a new league in Korea.
I got the feeling sponsoring a league is way more expensive than pay for 10 plane tickets every 3 months
Dont know what that means for NA, but i hope that not all Koreans who live currently in Eu have to leave. They brought a lot to the european scene and you could see gap between the top europeans and Koreans closing.
On September 05 2014 15:54 iamcaustic wrote: Fantastic news all around. It's about time there was real regional lock. For the people thinking this is a bad thing, let me explain why it's actually important; let's look at Korea to explain.
Koreans are known as being the best SC2 players, and for good reason. The reason they dominate the scene, however, is not due to some genetic trait, but rather cash flow and infrastructure. Players and teams are actually able to invest more of their time into being good at the game, and can afford coaching salaries and such.
Thinking WCS region lock magically reduces skill requirements for players is ludicrous; their training regime to win will still involve playing against Koreans (probably a lot of KR server, for example). The best foreigners don't win against Koreans because they face Koreans in tournaments once in a while, they win because they can beat those Koreans on ladder and in practice. What actually happens with region lock is that the tournament prize money gets infused into the local scene, rather than all the cash getting outsourced to Korea to further finance their dominance. Home-grown infrastructure is necessary if we ever want non-Koreans to be relevant at the highest level of play, and region lock is a step in the right direction to make it happen.
A simple economics example would be protectionism. Let's take the Korean auto market for example; when companies like Kia were just getting started, Korea put tariffs on imported vehicles to give the local underdogs a fighting chance to build up their infrastructure. Nowadays, Kia ships vehicles across the globe. Without that protectionism, everyone would have just bought Hondas and such. In the same way, we want to give Western teams a chance to build themselves up and get the infrastructure going, so that in the future they can compete at the highest level around the world on their own two feet.
Yeah and protectionism doesn't work...that's the whole point.
Except it did work for a lot of countries but still I don't like the change for SC2
On September 05 2014 21:41 Uracil wrote: Dont know what that means for NA, but i hope that not all Koreans who live currently in Eu have to leave. They brought a lot to the european scene and you could see gap between the top europeans and Koreans closing.
I think that is sort of the idea, to have the players stay in the region, rather than just for the two weeks of WCS. Dat EU server lag to Korea best soft region lock.
On September 05 2014 21:41 Uracil wrote: Dont know what that means for NA, but i hope that not all Koreans who live currently in Eu have to leave. They brought a lot to the european scene and you could see gap between the top europeans and Koreans closing.
I think that is sort of the idea, to have the players stay in the region, rather than just for the two weeks of WCS. Dat EU server lag to Korea best soft region lock.
Well i hope that the Visas that the EU Koreans have fulfill the new WCS rules.
On September 05 2014 22:11 Phredxor wrote: Will the changes help FlaSh do better?
If so, I support them all.
I think that it would force all the big Korean players to stay in Korea, so it'd make GSL more difficult, while making AM/EU a bit lighter on the Koreans.
Rediculous change. Quality of play was what made AM interesting. Sure, I'd love to see an American get through to Blizzcon, but you better be of the level of someone who qualifed in a different region. We shouldnt try to make this closer to the olympics..
Let's be honest, Koreans dominate this game. To round up (or require them to be residents) arguably the best players and put them all in Korea puts little to no value in AM/EU. It will always be, "Well, you didn't really beat a code s RO 32 quality player and you don't consistently show up in the quarterfinals of non-wcs events, so why are you going to blizzcon?"
The blizzcon tournement will again not have as much value (quality of players) as the GSL, Some will have easier roads and that point, THAT SPECIFIC POINT, is not right. Yes, the Koreans in Korea still have the hardest road, but this will be a step in backwards.
As someone who got into Starcraft early this year, and is only watching GSL and SPL I can't really say much, because this mostly affects foreign scene.
As far as Korean StarCraft is concerned, hopefully Code S gets 2-3 new contenders for a decent result (I'm hoping TaeJa) I think he has the most capability to make a result in that competition, and hopefully this gets more players to join KeSPA teams and make SPL even stronger.
As for the BlizzCon thing, I don't know really, I guess it all comes down to what Blizzard wants more.
a.) to have best possible competition, in which case they would need to reward WCS KR players atleast 5x more points, as they needed to do for 2014 aswell, or
b.) to have a solid foreign player base aswell, to attract more viewers I guess.
Like I said as Korean StarCraft fan this doesn't affect me much, but the fact that current Ro8 GSL players have to go through Code A or even qualifiers is abysmal.
EPT
