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Official KeSPA statement added to OP |
So that incredibly stacked World e-Sports Championship Korean qualifier (here)may not be true after all. Wolf tweeted:
More discussion took place on Reddit here and here.
Chuddinater, who works for KeSPA, stated that the organizers of WEC had never actually contacted the teams or players in the first place, and had simply released the bracket hoping they would show up. A translated post from the NeoTV forums had a different story: in it the tournament organizer claimed that the teams had originally agreed to play in the tournament, then later backed out after KeSPA expressed concerns about the legitimacy and funding of the tournament.
Either way, at this point it seems unlikely that KeSPA players will be participating... but in the grand tradition of eSports, everyone is now trying to figure out whos fault it is.
lichter's edit: According to our sources, there was no agreement between KeSPA and WEC on which players were participating. However, they are currently negotiating who to send, if they can come to an agreement. But the current list is wrong, so wait for more news. I have renamed the thread to reflect this.
More:
On August 06 2014 20:12 digmouse wrote:A message from xiaose, well-known Chinese Starcraft caster and organizer presentative for WEC Starcraft event, who asked me to relay the message to Teamliquid and r/starcraft: "I‘m the caster who is in charge of arranging the player list, there is no reason for me to 'fake a roster and wait for the players to come', I do have all the confirmations from the participating teams and players, thus I submitted the roster. The organizer did sent email to KeSPA and confirmed that it is a Blizzard sanctioned event but KeSPA ultimately ignored it, and furthermore notify that their teams will not be playing. I understand KeSPA's concerns, but please pay respect to the truth, don't lie, don't try to escape responsibility. All in all, I am only a caster and an avid Starcraft player, all I want is great Starcraft games, I don't have any personal gain in this." EDIT: also on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2cra3z/kespa_killing_esports/cjiek5d
mod edit #2: Official statement from KeSPA added.
On August 07 2014 09:23 Chuddinater wrote:
A lineup was released yesterday for the World E-Sport Championships (WEC) Korean qualifiers that listed many of our players. Fans were excited to see the top players in the world compete and there was a lot of disappointment. I would like to give the fans some insight into the situation.
Yesterday I posted that WEC did not contact teams or KeSPA, which I admit was not the best words to use. WEC contacted us once requesting players and we responded by asking for more information regarding the tournament and communication broke down from there. They never sent us the requested information and we never came to an agreement to send players. We never agreed to send players and their list was false.
We investigated WEC ourselves with the help of the IeSF, International e-Sports Federation, and the China General Sports Administration, who is the governing body of e-Sports in China. Because of past Chinese tournaments KeSPA had made a policy to not take requests from tournaments in China unless they are recognized by the China General Sports Administration. WEC is not a recognized tournament in China, so we will not work with them. We made this policy in order to protect our players after past Chinese tournaments that failed to come through with what they had offered as well as our players having terrible conditions at the event. We cannot in good faith send our players to an event that we are unsure of their finances as well as the quality of the event.
Also KeSPA will not work with any tournament or organizer that will not go through proper channels and procedures. They decided to try and navigate around us and contacted the players directly. We will not work with an organization that will try to circumvent the procedures we have in place.
I know all of the fans were very excited to watch the WEC Korean qualifiers and I am sorry to have to disappoint you. However, in September the KeSPA Cup will be held with all the top KeSPA players and players around the World.
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that bracket looked so cool too  hope this can be worked out.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
The qualifier seemed very strange, with people like Flash and most of SKT - players that don't typically participate in qualifiers - on the lineup. Too good to be true, I guess.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37025 Posts
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Jaedong vs Flash hopes shattered.
Welp, at least no by them being knocked out.
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I'm sad that we won't see the most stacked bracket ever, with the Jaedong vs Flash potential, played out. But on the other hand it's good that KeSPA is looking out for the players.
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And that's not even sure if the person that says "They did the bracket and hoped the players would connect" is right.
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The non-KeSPA lineup actully still doesn't look too bad, though we won't get a chance at Flash vs Jaedong.
Seems like one of the sides is lying since both acounts don't line up.
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Damn, this was looking to be an amazing qualifier that probably deserved more hype than the actual main tournament itself. I'm definitely not seeing the full picture here, but this whole business seemed a bit odd from both sides.
If Kespa does indeed prohibit their players though, I would like to see some of the recently teamless koreans join the qualifiers. Especially Trap, and maybe even Journey.
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"Certain Twitch emote to indicate sarcasm"
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and then RBBG scheduling had another seizure as herO wished to rejoin?XD
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Damn, and I was so hyped for a second.
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Kespa is cancer sometimes...
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RIP Hype
8/6/2014 - 8/6/2014
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Whaaat..... I was so hyped for this
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Something here doesn't add up. This qualifier was the reason herO dropped out of Red Bull Global.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
Well it's kinda like the top 8 of a reasonably large tournament....yay?
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Legit concern by KeSPA considering some history of scam Chinese tourneys. And the fact that the organizer fails to provide official documents within 2 weeks is kinda laughable
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in the grand tradition of eSports, everyone is now trying to figure out whos fault it is.
ROFl, so true <3
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France7248 Posts
On August 06 2014 18:15 Circumstance wrote:
Something here doesn't add up. This qualifier was the reason herO dropped out of Red Bull Global.
and how would you know?
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No JD v Flash?
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China6329 Posts
Contacting the player are done by the organizer of the Starcraft part of WEC, as far as I know the players were contacted and all agreed to play, I can provide chat log for proof. It's more about KeSPA worrying about the credibility of the event, they asked for credible files from the organization and probably didn't receive satisfying results.
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Love those tournaments where the Korean qualifier looks like a blizzcon and the main event like a foreigner tournament farmed by two Korean players. This makes no sense at all. I would prefer those kind of korean all-star fight occurs in a proper tournament designed to do so with the media coverage it merits.
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Australia18228 Posts
If WEC had gotten WCS points, none of this would've happened lol
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Non-kespa?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kbkufV6.png)
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China6329 Posts
They are working on replacements now, still a lot of high profile names.
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On August 06 2014 18:40 digmouse wrote:
Contacting the player are done by the organizer of the Starcraft part of WEC, as far as I know the players were contacted and all agreed to play, I can provide chat log for proof. It's more about KeSPA worrying about the credibility of the event, they asked for credible files from the organization and probably didn't receive satisfying results.
So Kespa is openly lying in their statement? This all seems a bit weird, I hope, that you can make the best out of this situation.
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hoping for first yoda mkp mvp the axiom guys and trap as replacements
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On August 06 2014 19:09 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 18:40 digmouse wrote:
Contacting the player are done by the organizer of the Starcraft part of WEC, as far as I know the players were contacted and all agreed to play, I can provide chat log for proof. It's more about KeSPA worrying about the credibility of the event, they asked for credible files from the organization and probably didn't receive satisfying results. So Kespa is openly lying in their statement? This all seems a bit weird, I hope, that you can make the best out of this situation.
Why are they?
KeSPA just want to protect players, noone wants to be bited in butt with another WPC and so on.
On August 06 2014 19:09 SNSeigifried wrote:
hoping for first yoda mkp mvp the axiom guys and trap as replacements
MKP is KeSPA as well and Trap will join someone most likely asap.
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Awww. I was really looking forward to the most stacked bracket of all time.
It seems weird that KESPA would lie about something like this, I hope that's not actually the case
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I have updated the OP with a little more information
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China6329 Posts
On August 06 2014 19:09 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 18:40 digmouse wrote:
Contacting the player are done by the organizer of the Starcraft part of WEC, as far as I know the players were contacted and all agreed to play, I can provide chat log for proof. It's more about KeSPA worrying about the credibility of the event, they asked for credible files from the organization and probably didn't receive satisfying results. So Kespa is openly lying in their statement? This all seems a bit weird, I hope, that you can make the best out of this situation.
I don't know, I do believe the organizer did follow the rules of business by contacting teams and players beforehand, if KeSPA has concerns and their concerns are not solved it's totally understandable that they ask their players to pull out, frankly hell even I don't know how WEC will end up but judging from what I know about the history of the organizer I have faith in them. But KeSPA straight out spiting out bullshit reasons instead of being honest is beyond me. It's like they have no confidence whatsoever about their concern.
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On August 06 2014 19:11 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 19:09 Xoronius wrote:On August 06 2014 18:40 digmouse wrote:
Contacting the player are done by the organizer of the Starcraft part of WEC, as far as I know the players were contacted and all agreed to play, I can provide chat log for proof. It's more about KeSPA worrying about the credibility of the event, they asked for credible files from the organization and probably didn't receive satisfying results. So Kespa is openly lying in their statement? This all seems a bit weird, I hope, that you can make the best out of this situation. Why are they? KeSPA just want to protect players, noone wants to be bited in butt with another WPC and so on.
While I can't say anything about the legitimacy of the tournament, giving reasons, that can apperently proven to be not true
(On August 06 2014 17:55 bduddy wrote:
Chuddinater, who works for KeSPA, stated that the organizers of WEC had never actually contacted the teams or players in the first place, and had simply released the bracket hoping they would show up.
On August 06 2014 18:40 digmouse wrote:
Contacting the player are done by the organizer of the Starcraft part of WEC, as far as I know the players were contacted and all agreed to play, I can provide chat log for proof. )
sounds like open lying to me. Like I said, I hope everything gets figured out, but in the end I fear that the withdraw might be permanent and Taeja just got a lot easier road to his next 25k.
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On August 06 2014 18:16 Fusilero wrote:Well it's kinda like the top 8 of a reasonably large tournament....yay?
Yes, but in comparison it would still sucks balls
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On August 06 2014 19:11 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 19:09 Xoronius wrote:On August 06 2014 18:40 digmouse wrote:
Contacting the player are done by the organizer of the Starcraft part of WEC, as far as I know the players were contacted and all agreed to play, I can provide chat log for proof. It's more about KeSPA worrying about the credibility of the event, they asked for credible files from the organization and probably didn't receive satisfying results. So Kespa is openly lying in their statement? This all seems a bit weird, I hope, that you can make the best out of this situation. Why are they? KeSPA just want to protect players, noone wants to be bited in butt with another WPC and so on. Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 19:09 SNSeigifried wrote:
hoping for first yoda mkp mvp the axiom guys and trap as replacements MKP is KeSPA as well and Trap will join someone most likely asap.
A spokesman from Kespa claimed that WEC never contacted players or teams.
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On August 06 2014 19:05 digmouse wrote:
They are working on replacements now, still a lot of high profile names.
Thank you digmouse. It's always important to have some insiders to communicate with foreign community (I mean non-Chinese community).
Btw, do you know whether players will be paid for their travels and hotels? I've heard someone mentioned about it but haven't found those information on WEC's website.
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China6329 Posts
On August 06 2014 19:31 mooncifer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 19:05 digmouse wrote:
They are working on replacements now, still a lot of high profile names. Thank you digmouse. It's always important to have some insiders to communicate with foreign community (I mean non-Chinese community). Btw, do you know whether players will be paid for their travels and hotels? I've heard someone mentioned about it but haven't found those information on WEC's website.
Qualified players will have their full flight and accommodations covered.
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so is this now a WCS Points tournament or not`?
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I took a look at that bracket and thought to myself that this is THE sickest tournament ever and then I realised it's just a korean qualifier to the main event... This qualifier alone would overshadow many many events and certainly the one it qualifies to.
I would love to see them all play, perfect bracket!
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It seems like Kespa really doesn't like the rest of the world...
They seem to be trying to hang on to the old ways of things, but the results of non-Kespa Korean players is ridiculous, just look at Taeja! And Bomber has a personal sponsor!
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On August 06 2014 19:59 Foreverkul wrote:It seems like Kespa really doesn't like the rest of the world...
If you look at their history with GOM, you will realize that they might not like certain parts of Korea as well.
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On August 06 2014 20:02 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 19:59 Foreverkul wrote:It seems like Kespa really doesn't like the rest of the world... If you look at their history with GOM, you will realize that they might not like certain parts of Korea as well.
Feels like Kespa doesn't really care about their players, just the image of their organization.
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China6329 Posts
A message from xiaose, well-known Chinese Starcraft caster and organizer presentative for WEC Starcraft event, who asked me to relay the message to Teamliquid and r/starcraft:
"I‘m the caster who is in charge of arranging the player list, there is no reason for me to 'fake a roster and wait for the players to come', I do have all the confirmations from the participating teams and players, thus I submitted the roster. The organizer did sent email to KeSPA and confirmed that it is a Blizzard sanctioned event but KeSPA ultimately ignored it, and furthermore notify that their teams will not be playing. I understand KeSPA's concerns, but please pay respect to the truth, don't lie, don't try to escape responsibility. All in all, I am only a caster and an avid Starcraft player, all I want is great Starcraft games, I don't have any personal gain in this."
EDIT: also on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2cra3z/kespa_killing_esports/cjiek5d
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It did look way too good to be true... :/
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On August 06 2014 20:08 Foreverkul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 20:02 JustPassingBy wrote:On August 06 2014 19:59 Foreverkul wrote:It seems like Kespa really doesn't like the rest of the world... If you look at their history with GOM, you will realize that they might not like certain parts of Korea as well. Feels like Kespa doesn't really care about their players, just the image of their organization.
They let them go to Dreamhacks/MLG's etc. I'd call confirming a tournament (and prize's) legitimacy as looking out for the players. If anything it's WEC's fault for not having official documents ready when trying to host a world class event. Besides, WEC should've contacted Kespa first if they wanted to use their players to promote a tourney. Anyone with a clue about the Korean scene should know this. Going straight to confirming teams/players without contacting the governing body was naive/stupid.
But sure, all aboard the kespa hate train.
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It's sad for herO
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It isn't worth starting a fuss over.
I have an account over what is happening here... Originally what happened was this was supposed to be a 16-player qualifier, then so many people began inquiring the status of this tournament, so it was changed to a 32 man tournament.
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your Country52797 Posts
I believe WEC, but there is really no reason for drama.
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kespa players are the best players
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On August 06 2014 20:31 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 20:08 Foreverkul wrote:On August 06 2014 20:02 JustPassingBy wrote:On August 06 2014 19:59 Foreverkul wrote:It seems like Kespa really doesn't like the rest of the world... If you look at their history with GOM, you will realize that they might not like certain parts of Korea as well. Feels like Kespa doesn't really care about their players, just the image of their organization. They let them go to Dreamhacks/MLG's etc. I'd call confirming a tournament (and prize's) legitimacy as looking out for the players. If anything it's WEC's fault for not having official documents ready when trying to host a world class event. Besides, WEC should've contacted Kespa first if they wanted to use their players to promote a tourney. Anyone with a clue about the Korean scene should know this. Going straight to confirming teams/players without contacting the governing body was naive/stupid. But sure, all aboard the kespa hate train.
Oh, no, I don't hate Kespa, I just think that they are too elitist and/or unwilling/slow to change. I can understand the concern since there have been shady dealings in the past about payments, but that doesn't make EVERY tournament shady. I feel it really restricts players unnecessarily when they can tell players they aren't allowed to play at some event for any reason/no reason.
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KeSPA, so many fucking idiot problems -.-''
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KESPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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On August 06 2014 20:08 Foreverkul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 20:02 JustPassingBy wrote:On August 06 2014 19:59 Foreverkul wrote:It seems like Kespa really doesn't like the rest of the world... If you look at their history with GOM, you will realize that they might not like certain parts of Korea as well. Feels like Kespa doesn't really care about their players, just the image of their organization.
nah, they care more about control then a good image. Can't wait till ESL will have taken over Korea ;P
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On August 06 2014 21:46 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 20:08 Foreverkul wrote:On August 06 2014 20:02 JustPassingBy wrote:On August 06 2014 19:59 Foreverkul wrote:It seems like Kespa really doesn't like the rest of the world... If you look at their history with GOM, you will realize that they might not like certain parts of Korea as well. Feels like Kespa doesn't really care about their players, just the image of their organization. nah, they care more about control then a good image. Can't wait till ESL will have taken over Korea ;P
rofl
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Geez KeSPA. Not cool at all.
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kespa has spent a fortune cultivating their players and scene. for WEC to come in and get the cream of the crop without even contacting the governing body--kespa--reeks of amateurism. it sounds like kespa got wind of this tourney and decided to flex their muscles. maybe if WEC gives kespa some cash, they will let all of their players attend
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I no longer see anything worth being upset over at this point. Kespa decided not to have players play in the qualifier. Now there is just a bunch of top-tier foreigner team Koreans who all win the foreign tournaments left. Still sounds like an amazing qualifier.
At least now Innovation has better chances of winning 
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Austria24417 Posts
When I said this was almost too good to be true, I didn't mean it like this -__-
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Kespa power!!!JD leave EG plz.Back to Korea plz.
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inb4 the winner doesn't get paid and KeSPA was right all along.
KeSPA doesn't deny their players tournaments just to show muscle lol, this is to protect the players. I don't agree with the lying about the bracket though
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On August 06 2014 23:39 sd_andeh wrote:
inb4 the winner doesn't get paid and KeSPA was right all along.
KeSPA doesn't deny their players tournaments just to show muscle lol, this is to protect the players. I don't agree with the lying about the bracket though
Protect from what?
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Whatever happens I hope it's sorted out quickly. The IEM Toronto qualifiers are on the same day which means the deadline for sign ups will be in the next couple of days. Would hate to have the players miss out on it because of this mess.
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On August 06 2014 23:06 Gamlet wrote:
Kespa power!!!JD leave EG plz.Back to Korea plz.
Then we'll never see him in another tournament. Is that what you really want?
What I would do to see Flash play more....
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If KeSPA pulls their players out, this bracket is effectively neutered to oblivion.
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On August 06 2014 23:41 SuperHofmann wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 23:39 sd_andeh wrote:
inb4 the winner doesn't get paid and KeSPA was right all along.
KeSPA doesn't deny their players tournaments just to show muscle lol, this is to protect the players. I don't agree with the lying about the bracket though Protect from what?
Sending their players to a questionable tournament where they might not get paid properly or on time or compensated for travel? When's the last time you've ever heard a Kespa player complain about tournaments not paying them? Non-kespa players on the other hand...
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KeSPA killing Starcraft. Screw you.
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once again.. Jaedong... Jaedong everywhere...
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On August 06 2014 23:57 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 23:41 SuperHofmann wrote:On August 06 2014 23:39 sd_andeh wrote:
inb4 the winner doesn't get paid and KeSPA was right all along.
KeSPA doesn't deny their players tournaments just to show muscle lol, this is to protect the players. I don't agree with the lying about the bracket though Protect from what? Sending their players to a questionable tournament where they might not get paid properly or on time or compensated for travel? When's the last time you've ever heard a Kespa player complain about tournaments not paying them? Non-kespa players on the other hand...
But if they don't play any tourney they will naver paid... so it's the same lol
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the typical amount of hate and ignorance in this thread reflects how eSport is still a joke industry, at least in the west. Can you haters count how many players didnt get prize paid, screwed over every week? Whats so beneficial for your players to play in shady journey that cant even identify itself?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
People need to chill until we get more news, sheesh
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So basically, half the players I didn't care about anyway dropped out, and everyone left is someone I'm a big fan of? Still looks like an awesome tournament to me! I'll definitely be watching it.
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Korea (South)227 Posts
I highly doubt the current KeSPA would be doing this out of greed or spite. They wouldn't show off their power over the players this way, it makes little sense. Certainly lying about the player list wasn't a great touch, but at least I believe that this choice has a reason. If you look at the WEC prize pool, its RIDICULOUSLY high. If the announcement is that high, I would seriously like to see the sponsors and their words on that money, as such a high level tournament really shouldn't have ANY shady stuff surrounding it. Hopefully this mess does indeed get solved as quickly as possible, as it conflicts with IEM Toronto qualifiers, and it will be a pain in the butt for the players if they miss out on a great opportunity such as this due to shady business.
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China6329 Posts
On August 07 2014 00:05 Arceus wrote:
the typical amount of hate and ignorance in this thread reflects how eSport is still a joke industry, at least in the west. Can you haters count how many players didnt get prize paid, screwed over every week? Whats so beneficial for your players to play in shady journey that cant even identify itself?
I do agree on this, I think KeSPA's concern about the tourney is in good will and is completely valid, but the part of denying the fact that the organizers contacted players and teams kinda pisses people off. The general consensus here mainly blame KeSPA for that, not a lot of people argue about their concern itself.
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On August 06 2014 23:57 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 23:41 SuperHofmann wrote:On August 06 2014 23:39 sd_andeh wrote:
inb4 the winner doesn't get paid and KeSPA was right all along.
KeSPA doesn't deny their players tournaments just to show muscle lol, this is to protect the players. I don't agree with the lying about the bracket though Protect from what? Sending their players to a questionable tournament where they might not get paid properly or on time or compensated for travel? When's the last time you've ever heard a Kespa player complain about tournaments not paying them? Non-kespa players on the other hand...
If it makes you feel any better, I am the caster for the event and I'm in the same boat (more or less) with the players. I am willing to take the risks too.
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On August 07 2014 00:11 digmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 00:05 Arceus wrote:
the typical amount of hate and ignorance in this thread reflects how eSport is still a joke industry, at least in the west. Can you haters count how many players didnt get prize paid, screwed over every week? Whats so beneficial for your players to play in shady journey that cant even identify itself? I do agree on this, I think KeSPA's concern about the tourney is in good will and is completely valid, but the part of denying the fact that the organizers contacted players and teams kinda pisses people off. The general consensus here mainly blame KeSPA for that, not a lot of people argue about their concern itself.
Euh no, pretty much everyone in here who writes something like "kespa kills starcraft again" probably didn't even read the op.
It is just easier to hate on kespa, it is some sort of tradition really.
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KeSPA is obviously right to react like they does. Maybe they are wrong and everything'll run fine, prize pool'll be paid. But they can't know for sure atm
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On August 06 2014 23:06 Gamlet wrote:
Kespa power!!!JD leave EG plz.Back to Korea plz.
Yeah!! Go back to Kespa where you can't stream and can't participate in no tournament! Do that because we love you so much , that we don't want to see you play or earn money!
^^
fuck kespa
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 07 2014 01:00 shell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 23:06 Gamlet wrote:
Kespa power!!!JD leave EG plz.Back to Korea plz. Yeah!! Go back to Kespa where you can't stream and can't participate in no tournament! Do that because we love you so much , that we don't want to see you play or earn money! ^^ fuck kespa
Not liking KeSPA is a completely fine position to have, but keep in mind that they are the ones - to some extent, anyway - that keep Proleague and the teams going. KeSPA aren't flawless, but their organization isn't structured like it is because they want to fuck the players over at all. They have made significant contributions to both Starcraft scenes, and I think it's silly to act like all they ever do is ruin stuff.
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I think Kespa is doing the right thing, but they messed up with denying that WEC contacted the players (someone said he can provide proof the contact has been made). I don't think Kespa is doing this on purpose tho, it's probably a misunderstanding between the three parties.
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Geez the attitude or "reasoning" of some people in this thread make me rage like I'm being cannon rushed -.-
E:typo.
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I think KeSPA's concern is justified given how quite a few eSports tournaments have had trouble paying their players on time.
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yeah this tournament seems like an elaborate scam - just look at the player list, you'd think there would be a million bucks up for grabs. it's twice as stacked as wcs grand finals.
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KeSPA protecting their players and people hating them...
I(kespa) would not send my son(rain) into a acampment(tournament) unless im sure that other parents( sponsors) that support the acampment are not shady/not to be trusted.
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On August 07 2014 01:00 shell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 23:06 Gamlet wrote:
Kespa power!!!JD leave EG plz.Back to Korea plz. Yeah!! Go back to Kespa where you can't stream and can't participate in no tournament! Do that because we love you so much , that we don't want to see you play or earn money! ^^ fuck kespa
Well, Jaedong playing in Proleague and GSL (plus having same opportunities as all the other Kespa players of qualifying for foreign tournaments) >>> Jaedong playing WCS AM and every possible Dreamhack / whatever else cashgrab tournament is going on.
People are acting like Kespa players don't get to play tournaments, which is simply not true. Every online qualifier is filled with players from at least CJ and Samsung, sometimes KT and SKT players and ofc IM/MVP/Prime. Only JinAir mostly doesn't allow their players to participate, but I expect this to change now that SPL almost ended.
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On August 07 2014 01:15 eviltomahawk wrote:
I think KeSPA's concern is justified given how quite a few eSports tournaments have had trouble paying their players on time.
Kespa concern might be going into a paranoid direction, but is to some extend certainly justified. Denying facts, however, is not and that is what people were complaining about in the first part of the discussion. Anyway, let's just hope, that WEC can somehow provide the right documents and end all of this on a positive note.
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hmmm.....
is KeSPA jelly that China is gonna host this amazing lineup and would rather have some sort of KeSPA run tournament of the same caliber?
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On August 07 2014 02:01 triforks wrote:
hmmm.....
is KeSPA jelly that China is gonna host this amazing lineup and would rather have some sort of KeSPA run tournament of the same caliber?
Or they might worry about sending their players in without them getting paid.
But when Destiny was trying to get Kespa players to play, they said that "You got everything to gain from this tournament so we are just not going to give any of our players." And keep in mind, that Destiny's tournament is online too.
Yeah Kespa was known to be dicks in the BW era. The BW fans only takes up their side when a bigger evil (Blizzard) stepped in and replaced BW PL with SC2 PL.
Truthfully, SC2 will probably turn up like BW with Kespa hosting hostages of the players for leverage. But this time, they can't rely on the Korean audience because Koreans are focused on other games, they have to appease to non-Korean tournaments. But I doubt they would really care if SC2 goes under since they always have LoL for profits.
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The players (who are over 18 or thus their parents) should be able to decide where they want to competete or not, even if there could be payment issues. But no! KeSPA must show its mighty force, showing that they know best for the players, not the players themself. The problem is, KeSPA does not care about the players. the sport or the scene, they care about themself. Remember GomTv Classic Events anyone?
WCA was clever enough to not spend their 3,2 Mio $ Prize Money at any Starcraft Event, but 100.000$ for Warcraft III.
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On August 07 2014 02:09 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 02:01 triforks wrote:
hmmm.....
is KeSPA jelly that China is gonna host this amazing lineup and would rather have some sort of KeSPA run tournament of the same caliber? But when Destiny was trying to get Kespa players to play, they said that "You got everything to gain from this tournament so we are just not going to give any of our players." And keep in mind, that Destiny's tournament is online too.
Can anybody else verify this? I don't watch Destiny's stream so this is news to me. D:
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short lived Kespa jailbreak
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On August 07 2014 02:26 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 02:09 Xiphos wrote:On August 07 2014 02:01 triforks wrote:
hmmm.....
is KeSPA jelly that China is gonna host this amazing lineup and would rather have some sort of KeSPA run tournament of the same caliber? But when Destiny was trying to get Kespa players to play, they said that "You got everything to gain from this tournament so we are just not going to give any of our players." And keep in mind, that Destiny's tournament is online too. Can anybody else verify this? I don't watch Destiny's stream so this is news to me. D:
Go watch the 2nd last episode of Unfiltered.
And Destiny will be posting up a summary of events that happened from the inception of the tournament to the end, like how that British guy does it.
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On August 07 2014 02:10 Clonester wrote:
The players (who are over 18 or thus their parents) should be able to decide where they want to competete or not, even if there could be payment issues. But no! KeSPA must show its mighty force, showing that they know best for the players, not the players themself. The problem is, KeSPA does not care about the players. the sport or the scene, they care about themself. Remember GomTv Classic Events anyone?
WCA was clever enough to not spend their 3,2 Mio $ Prize Money at any Starcraft Event, but 100.000$ for Warcraft III.
I'm over 18 but if a company I had never heard of contacted me and requested I do business with them promising me to pay them only after the work had already been done, I think my employer would ask for proof of payment as well. This situation sucks but it's like so many people don't realize that when you are a part of an organization you're not allowed to just do whatever you want just because you're an adult. That's not unreasonable.
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KeSpa save korean sc2 scene.Haters really funny/
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On August 07 2014 02:09 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 02:01 triforks wrote:
hmmm.....
is KeSPA jelly that China is gonna host this amazing lineup and would rather have some sort of KeSPA run tournament of the same caliber? Or they might worry about sending their players in without them getting paid. But when Destiny was trying to get Kespa players to play, they said that "You got everything to gain from this tournament so we are just not going to give any of our players." And keep in mind, that Destiny's tournament is online too. Yeah Kespa was known to be dicks in the BW era. The BW fans only takes up their side when a bigger evil (Blizzard) stepped in and replaced BW PL with SC2 PL. Truthfully, SC2 will probably turn up like BW with Kespa hosting hostages of the players for leverage. But this time, they can't rely on the Korean audience because Koreans are focused on other games, they have to appease to non-Korean tournaments. But I doubt they would really care if SC2 goes under since they always have LoL for profits.
So bogus of kespa. If a kespa player won destiny's tournament, they would get money and exposure. Destiny is not the sole profiteer. Give destiny the players? He's not asking for years of hard labour from then.
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I don't understand why people say this tournament is shady. It's approved by Netease, Blizzard's Chinese branch and sponsored by well-known game, video and stream companies in China. Now it is difficult to get government documents in China in a week because of all the red tapes, so it's understandable that Kespa doesn't want to take the risk, but to say that WEC made up the lineup is just slander.
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KESPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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On August 07 2014 01:38 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 01:00 shell wrote:On August 06 2014 23:06 Gamlet wrote:
Kespa power!!!JD leave EG plz.Back to Korea plz. Yeah!! Go back to Kespa where you can't stream and can't participate in no tournament! Do that because we love you so much , that we don't want to see you play or earn money! ^^ fuck kespa Well, Jaedong playing in Proleague and GSL (plus having same opportunities as all the other Kespa players of qualifying for foreign tournaments) >>> Jaedong playing WCS AM and every possible Dreamhack / whatever else cashgrab tournament is going on. People are acting like Kespa players don't get to play tournaments, which is simply not true. Every online qualifier is filled with players from at least CJ and Samsung, sometimes KT and SKT players and ofc IM/MVP/Prime. Only JinAir mostly doesn't allow their players to participate, but I expect this to change now that SPL almost ended.
Jin Air won't change much in sending players out, SKT and KT will most likely also not send out that many players to foreign even after ProLeague is over as those 3 teams simply have not much to gain from doing it as their product is simply not being available outside of South Korea and some Asian countries, it's why CJ and Samsung do send out their players more often (CJ Entus being part of CJ E&M which is a subsidiary under CJ Group that deals with all entertainment that they own (k-pop and korean films/drama/variety show among things, Samsung for their phone/tv/monitor/etc. products).
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 07 2014 03:05 argonautdice wrote:
I don't understand why people say this tournament is shady. It's approved by Netease, Blizzard's Chinese branch and sponsored by well-known game, video and stream companies in China. Now it is difficult to get government documents in China in a week because of all the red tapes, so it's understandable that Kespa doesn't want to take the risk, but to say that WEC made up the lineup is just slander.
IPL5 didn't pay people for months, it's reasonable to approach tournaments you're not organizing yourself with some skepticism. A lot of organizers in esports have trouble actually going through with their promises, I don't think you should just up and trust WEC because they're approved by anyone.
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On August 07 2014 03:20 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 03:05 argonautdice wrote:
I don't understand why people say this tournament is shady. It's approved by Netease, Blizzard's Chinese branch and sponsored by well-known game, video and stream companies in China. Now it is difficult to get government documents in China in a week because of all the red tapes, so it's understandable that Kespa doesn't want to take the risk, but to say that WEC made up the lineup is just slander. IPL5 didn't pay people for months, it's reasonable to approach tournaments you're not organizing yourself with some skepticism. A lot of organizers in esports have trouble actually going through with their promises, I don't think you should just up and trust WEC because they're approved by anyone.
Agreed, Kespa has the right to be suspicious, everybody has. But the bad timing of their statement makes me wonder whether WEC is incredible poorly prepared, approaching the players that late or whether they deliberately posted their response that late to sabotage the event.
In fact, did WEC even approach the players as they claimed to have proof of? One side is clearly lying into our face and I want to know which.
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On August 07 2014 04:35 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 03:20 Zealously wrote:On August 07 2014 03:05 argonautdice wrote:
I don't understand why people say this tournament is shady. It's approved by Netease, Blizzard's Chinese branch and sponsored by well-known game, video and stream companies in China. Now it is difficult to get government documents in China in a week because of all the red tapes, so it's understandable that Kespa doesn't want to take the risk, but to say that WEC made up the lineup is just slander. IPL5 didn't pay people for months, it's reasonable to approach tournaments you're not organizing yourself with some skepticism. A lot of organizers in esports have trouble actually going through with their promises, I don't think you should just up and trust WEC because they're approved by anyone. Agreed, Kespa has the right to be suspicious, everybody has. But the bad timing of their statement makes me wonder whether WEC is incredible poorly prepared, approaching the players that late or whether they deliberately posted their response that late to sabotage the event. In fact, did WEC even approach the players as they claimed to have proof of? One side is clearly lying into our face and I want to know which.
SoO doesn't play on a barcode on korea, so you could probably just ask him if he was asked to play or not.
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To be fair, blizzard sanction event doesn't really mean much considering how much money was owed to players from dead tournament organizers.
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The organizer did sent email to KeSPA and confirmed that it is a Blizzard sanctioned event but KeSPA ultimately ignored it,
so Kespa never agreed to participate....
and furthermore notify that their teams will not be playing]
good move, they know how to run a sport federation
look like a whining post to me^^
this topic is so LOL....WCS/WEC/proleague...always the same players...^^
ps: loved the "kespa kills esports" hope one day blizzard will do the same and not what they're doing right now :p
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On August 07 2014 00:13 BreAKerTV wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 23:57 Caihead wrote:On August 06 2014 23:41 SuperHofmann wrote:On August 06 2014 23:39 sd_andeh wrote:
inb4 the winner doesn't get paid and KeSPA was right all along.
KeSPA doesn't deny their players tournaments just to show muscle lol, this is to protect the players. I don't agree with the lying about the bracket though Protect from what? Sending their players to a questionable tournament where they might not get paid properly or on time or compensated for travel? When's the last time you've ever heard a Kespa player complain about tournaments not paying them? Non-kespa players on the other hand... If it makes you feel any better, I am the caster for the event and I'm in the same boat (more or less) with the players. I am willing to take the risks too.
Obviously I want this event to be a hit (why wouldn't I), was just stating an obvious motivation for why Kespa is doing this and how it's not unreasonable.
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Great was looking forward for taeja to loose to these kespa beasts so everyone would shut up about him
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On August 07 2014 06:33 Nuka wrote:
Great was looking forward for taeja to loose to these kespa beasts so everyone would shut up about him
Pretty sure Taeja have positive records against these "Kespa beasts" already. The only losses I can think of is vs Dear and sOs, when protoss was at the peak of imbaness.
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On August 07 2014 06:46 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 06:33 Nuka wrote:
Great was looking forward for taeja to loose to these kespa beasts so everyone would shut up about him Pretty sure Taeja have positive records against these "Kespa beasts" already. The only losses I can think of is vs Dear and sOs, when protoss was at the peak of imbaness.
ahahahahahah, i hope something happens and these players still compete.
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3-0ing Zest and winning Solar with screwed wirsts was enough to prove that he is good.
PS: Time to hear the "Hurdur Zest was playing on a Courage level!1! Pigbaby Pigbaby Pigbaby Pigbaby Pigbaby1!!!!!"
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Why wouldn't you try?
It's an online qualifier, so you do not have to pay to fly to participate for the qualifiers. If you make it through the Korean qualifier, you have great chance of winning the entire tournament, given the qualified players from China, Europe, and US. So qualifying gives you a good chance at placing 1st or 2nd in the main event.
I am not surprised that many big name KESPA players are trying to qualify. It's an easy $24,272 compared to winning other tournaments of similar prize pool.
Not sure why KESPA is preventing players from participating. KESPA has its merits and flaws. If I am a player, I like KESPA if it is protecting teams and players against others that are trying to exploit me, not paying. I do not like KESPA if this is some political issue. Who can say what the issue is? I am sure they have criteria a tournament must meet, put in place so that their players are accommodated and paid appropriately. Who knows?
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On August 07 2014 07:08 Starecat wrote:
3-0ing Zest and winning Solar with screwed wirsts was enough to prove that he is good.
PS: Time to hear the "Hurdur Zest was playing on a Courage level!1! Pigbaby Pigbaby Pigbaby Pigbaby Pigbaby1!!!!!"
Zest played the worst games of his life (despite nearly winning the last 2 games). And solar should of took the finals with ease i think he was maybe nervous. But whatever i hope to see him in the gsl or proleague sometime soon. I dont doubt his skill i would just like to see him compete in korea once again.
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still amazing³ players in it, wont hurt so much when jaedong and taeja or anyone like this qualify so i am still ok
lets kespa be kespa , we know how they are
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Ok, maybe a little out of topic but...
KesPa is like the Jedi Council? They make all the decisions?
According... the best interests... of the Republic? (or Federation).
And if teams want their players to play... and the players want to play... but KesPa says NO its lights out?
And the reason behind the NO is because... we can? (referring to KesPa)
Sorry, just trying to understand.
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well the thing is like this, WEC side is angry because they had contact KeSPA and KePSA first say no and later somehow admit that lol. I can totally understand KeSPA's concern, its a new organizer, new tournament, and with seems too high prize-pool. BUT the problem is, lets stick with the FACT but not other things, if WEC didnt contact you, then fine, WEC's fault; but if you are lying about it from the start, then hey, no matter how good reason you have, I dont really want to hear now
By Chuddinater:
'I'm sorry if it came off as rude. I was not trying to be, I just didn't understand the end part of your last message.
Please remove all KeSPA players from the line up list. I have already contacted Team Liquid and they will be removing it from their page as well.
Also we did reply I am looking at the email right now. d8tv sent the email on the 29th and we replied on the 30th.
Also please remove the email from your post.'
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2cphss/lineup_for_the_korean_qualifier_of_world_esport/
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On August 07 2014 07:09 Prolet wrote:
Why wouldn't you try?
It's an online qualifier, so you do not have to pay to fly to participate for the qualifiers. If you make it through the Korean qualifier, you have great chance of winning the entire tournament, given the qualified players from China, Europe, and US. So qualifying gives you a good chance at placing 1st or 2nd in the main event.
I am not surprised that many big name KESPA players are trying to qualify. It's an easy $24,272 compared to winning other tournaments of similar prize pool.
Not sure why KESPA is preventing players from participating. KESPA has its merits and flaws. If I am a player, I like KESPA if it is protecting teams and players against others that are trying to exploit me, not paying. I do not like KESPA if this is some political issue. Who can say what the issue is? I am sure they have criteria a tournament must meet, put in place so that their players are accommodated and paid appropriately. Who knows?
According to some users here, Kespa also denied its players participation in Destiny's tournament, even though there is 100% proof that it is completely funded due to crowdfunding.
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On August 07 2014 07:45 IPOs_K wrote:well the thing is like this, WEC side is angry because they had contact KeSPA and KePSA first say no and later somehow admit that lol. I can totally understand KeSPA's concern, its a new organizer, new tournament, and with seems too high prize-pool. BUT the problem is, lets stick with the FACT but not other things, if WEC didnt contact you, then fine, WEC's fault; but if you are lying about it from the start, then hey, no matter how good reason you have, I dont really want to hear now By Chuddinater: 'I'm sorry if it came off as rude. I was not trying to be, I just didn't understand the end part of your last message. Please remove all KeSPA players from the line up list. I have already contacted Team Liquid and they will be removing it from their page as well. Also we did reply I am looking at the email right now. d8tv sent the email on the 29th and we replied on the 30th.Also please remove the email from your post.'
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2cphss/lineup_for_the_korean_qualifier_of_world_esport/
Well, so that Kespa guy was lying after all. Nevertheless, contacting Kespa not even two weeks in advance is very shortsighted of them. In particular since Kespa might want to see some securities first that everything is legit (as they did). I wonder whether WEC was in contact with the players before that.
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On August 07 2014 07:57 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 07:45 IPOs_K wrote:well the thing is like this, WEC side is angry because they had contact KeSPA and KePSA first say no and later somehow admit that lol. I can totally understand KeSPA's concern, its a new organizer, new tournament, and with seems too high prize-pool. BUT the problem is, lets stick with the FACT but not other things, if WEC didnt contact you, then fine, WEC's fault; but if you are lying about it from the start, then hey, no matter how good reason you have, I dont really want to hear now By Chuddinater: 'I'm sorry if it came off as rude. I was not trying to be, I just didn't understand the end part of your last message. Please remove all KeSPA players from the line up list. I have already contacted Team Liquid and they will be removing it from their page as well. Also we did reply I am looking at the email right now. d8tv sent the email on the 29th and we replied on the 30th.Also please remove the email from your post.'
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2cphss/lineup_for_the_korean_qualifier_of_world_esport/ Well, so that Kespa guy was lying after all. Nevertheless, contacting Kespa not even two weeks in advance is very shortsighted of them. In particular since Kespa might want to see some securities first that everything is legit (as they did). I wonder whether WEC was in contact with the players before that.
edit: nvm
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On August 07 2014 07:57 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 07:45 IPOs_K wrote:well the thing is like this, WEC side is angry because they had contact KeSPA and KePSA first say no and later somehow admit that lol. I can totally understand KeSPA's concern, its a new organizer, new tournament, and with seems too high prize-pool. BUT the problem is, lets stick with the FACT but not other things, if WEC didnt contact you, then fine, WEC's fault; but if you are lying about it from the start, then hey, no matter how good reason you have, I dont really want to hear now By Chuddinater: 'I'm sorry if it came off as rude. I was not trying to be, I just didn't understand the end part of your last message. Please remove all KeSPA players from the line up list. I have already contacted Team Liquid and they will be removing it from their page as well. Also we did reply I am looking at the email right now. d8tv sent the email on the 29th and we replied on the 30th.Also please remove the email from your post.'
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2cphss/lineup_for_the_korean_qualifier_of_world_esport/ Well, so that Kespa guy was lying after all. Nevertheless, contacting Kespa not even two weeks in advance is very shortsighted of them. In particular since Kespa might want to see some securities first that everything is legit (as they did). I wonder whether WEC was in contact with the players before that.
Nah, I don't think KeSPA was lying, more of a case of semantics. Chuddinater was basically referring to WEC not contacting them about proceeding to post the lineup to the public. WEC did contact KeSPA requesting for participation and they said no. These two events together make sense. Would love to see a screencap of that July 29-30 e-mail trail to end this fiasco.
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France7248 Posts
just saw the update of OP, were was made the statement by Chuddinater? I would like to quote it, but is there a direct link?
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Korea (South)169 Posts
On August 07 2014 10:00 Yhamm wrote:
just saw the update of OP, were was made the statement by Chuddinater? I would like to quote it, but is there a direct link?
TL deleted the thread and just posted it in here.
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France7248 Posts
On August 07 2014 10:04 Chuddinater wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 10:00 Yhamm wrote:
just saw the update of OP, were was made the statement by Chuddinater? I would like to quote it, but is there a direct link? TL deleted the thread and just posted it in here.
man
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Korea (South)169 Posts
Any way the title can be changed since we aren't negotiating with WEC.
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Thank you for clearing that up chuddinater!
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Great response from Kespa, pretty reasonable showed sooooo much responsibility and care for their players.
But
1,
KeSPA had made a policy to not take requests from tournaments in China unless they are recognized by the China General Sports Administration.
China General Sports Administration? Seriously? That is the government organization for all sports and sport related activities, the same organization in the US is called President's Council on Fitness, Sports, and Nutrition (PCFSN).
They are basically asking for a signature from the White house for an online qualifier.
On the other hand, if it is an existing policy in Kespa, All teams/coaches/players should know about it and ask for recognition from kespa before accepting the invitation. But according to Xiaose's post on reddit, WEC made the invitation over a month ago, only SKT1 asked for kespa's permission, but they accepted the invitation so afterwards even before they receive the permission.
2.
Also KeSPA will not work with any tournament or organizer that will not go through proper channels and procedures. They decided to try and navigate around us and contacted the players directly. We will not work with an organization that will try to circumvent the procedures we have in place.
Directly contacting teams/coaches/players is believed to be normal approach of inviting players.
WEC was not planning to navigate around kespa, or circumvent the procedures, but just didn't know there is one. And according to the story, even most kespa teams/coaches/players did't know.
Please, Kespa, let your player and the world know more about your policies, especially the important one like
"Mama told me not to speak with strangers".
3.
I don't really understand why KeSPA keeps being arrogance and show zero respect to a new organization to the scene. And keeps throwing shit towards WEC and makes it look like a shady event.
Instead of asking WEC to withdraw the announcement or asking all the Kespa players to reject the invitation, they simply said that WEC pull out a "false list without contacting Kespa and teams".
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"They decided to try and navigate around us and contacted the players directly. We will not work with an organization that will try to circumvent the procedures we have in place."
This sentence by Chuddinator is the important sentence.
Not the teams decide in Korea, not the players can decide where they want to play, the E-Sport Federation does. Not many people outside Korea ( me neither ) gonna understand how free men have to commit to the Federation unable to choose by their own where they want to play.
It is right, the WEC came out of the blue and there have been difficuiltys with events in China, it is okay that the Federation tells these things their players. But just deciding they aren't allowed to play there and make easy money? And then we come back to the Destiny I thing an the sentence above, how dare they to talk with the players, who have no free will?
Western and Korean Scene split more and more, while the west still likes to watch SPL and GSL, more and more Koreans flee from these rules into western Teams where they can play where they want. And foreigners just come for training to Korea, but dont want to compete there anymore. Its a shame that this happens, but hey, maybe times gonna change sometimes.
And WCA was a bit cleverer then WEC, dont spoil Dollars of their 3,4$ Mio. Dollar Pool for Starcraft II but having the largest WC III Prizepool that has ever been there.
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You have to ask to play games, and a extra 'p' can screw you... What a stupid organization.
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Korea (South)169 Posts
On August 07 2014 10:49 CxWiLL wrote:Great response from Kespa, pretty reasonable showed sooooo much responsibility and care for their players. But 1, Show nested quote +KeSPA had made a policy to not take requests from tournaments in China unless they are recognized by the China General Sports Administration. China General Sports Administration? Seriously? That is the government organization for all sports and sport related activities, the same organization in the US is called President's Council on Fitness, Sports, and Nutrition (PCFSN). They are basically asking for a signature from the White house for an online qualifier. On the other hand, if it is an existing policy in Kespa, All teams/coaches/players should know about it and ask for recognition from kespa before accepting the invitation. But according to Xiaose's post on reddit, WEC made the invitation over a month ago, only SKT1 asked for kespa's permission, but they accepted the invitation so afterwards even before they receive the permission. 2. Show nested quote +Also KeSPA will not work with any tournament or organizer that will not go through proper channels and procedures. They decided to try and navigate around us and contacted the players directly. We will not work with an organization that will try to circumvent the procedures we have in place. Directly contacting teams/coaches/players is believed to be normal approach of inviting players. WEC was not planning to navigate around kespa, or circumvent the procedures, but just didn't know there is one. And according to the story, even most kespa teams/coaches/players did't know. Please, Kespa, let your player and the world know more about your policies, especially the important one like "Mama told me not to speak with strangers". 3. I don't really understand why KeSPA keeps being arrogance and show zero respect to a new organization to the scene. And keeps throwing shit towards WEC and makes it look like a shady event. Instead of asking WEC to withdraw the announcement or asking all the Kespa players to reject the invitation, they simply said that WEC pull out a "false list without contacting Kespa and teams".
Regarding your second point WEC did know and they did contact us. Teams would have informed any organization like them to contact us. When we asked for documents and asked them to contact the Chinese General Sports Administration they stopped contacting us and did not send us any of the information we had requested from them. When we asked the Chinese General Sports Administration about WEC they replied that they have never heard of them and have never been contacted by them. More so with China then other nations we have very strict protocols because of tournaments in the past. It is very difficult to get money from someone that refuses to pay in China.
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On August 07 2014 10:51 Clonester wrote:
"They decided to try and navigate around us and contacted the players directly. We will not work with an organization that will try to circumvent the procedures we have in place."
This is kinda strange since players like Solar always compete in online tournaments and events.
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Hmm to me it doesn't look like Kespa is trying to forbid organizations from contacting the teams and players before them, I think they just want to make sure those organizations have Kespa's approval before releasing lineups and making official statements regarding their players.
Why do teams and players need Kespa's permission to participate in events and can't decide by themselves? That's a different topic. I'm not an expert but I think when you join a Federation you agree with their vision of things and thus obey their rules, getting in exchange benefits like "protection from scams", "enforcement of good conditions" and/or whatever Federations do
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I think we all can agree that Taeja will stomp everyone.
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On August 07 2014 07:23 alukarD wrote:
Ok, maybe a little out of topic but...
KesPa is like the Jedi Council? They make all the decisions?
According... the best interests... of the Republic? (or Federation).
And if teams want their players to play... and the players want to play... but KesPa says NO its lights out?
And the reason behind the NO is because... we can? (referring to KesPa)
Sorry, just trying to understand.
You are thinking as if Kespa is an independent/neutral organisation, which it is supposed to be but not in reality.
Proteams are both members and decision makers of Kespa.
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On August 07 2014 11:06 silvana wrote:Hmm to me it doesn't look like Kespa is trying to forbid organizations from contacting the teams and players before them, I think they just want to make sure those organizations have Kespa's approval before releasing lineups and making official statements regarding their players. Why do teams and players need Kespa's permission to participate in events and can't decide by themselves? That's a different topic. I'm not an expert but I think when you join a Federation you agree with their vision of things and thus obey their rules, getting in exchange benefits like "protection from scams", "enforcement of good conditions" and/or whatever Federations do
yea this whole thing seems to me like someone came along promising the scene a cheap car for sale and then when it turned out the car was stolen everyone got mad at the police for arresting him
but thats just my overall impression, i think its silly to assume we know more than the orgs involved... so goofy how the community gets involved in these drama matches when none of us actually know a thing
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France7248 Posts
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KeSPA had made a policy to not take requests from tournaments in China unless they are recognized by the China General Sports Administration.
The China General Sports Administration is a government body running large sports games like 2008 Beijing Olympics or 2013 World Swimming Championships. I don't think any SC2 tournament would be recognized by them. So actually, KeSPA players won't show up in any Chinese SC2 tournament.
By the way, is MLG recognized by U.S. Department of Sports or American Sports Federation?
in September the KeSPA Cup will be held with all the top KeSPA players and players around the World.
Real reason it is.
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Korea (South)169 Posts
On August 07 2014 11:14 zxdyn wrote:Show nested quote +KeSPA had made a policy to not take requests from tournaments in China unless they are recognized by the China General Sports Administration. The China General Sports Administration is a government body running large sports games like 2008 Beijing Olympics or 2013 World Swimming Championships. I don't think any SC2 tournament would be recognized by them. So actually, KeSPA players won't show up in any Chinese SC2 tournament. By the way, is MLG recognized by U.S. Department of Sports or American Sports Federation? Show nested quote +in September the KeSPA Cup will be held with all the top KeSPA players and players around the World. Real reason it is.
The China General Sports Administration has a seperate department that handles e-Sports. They recognize a good amount of tournaments in China. WEC is just not one of them. For example WECG is recognized by them.
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The fact remains that WEC posted brackets without confirmation, and is the root of all the disappointment. But Kespa hate is fashionable, so I guess the blame is now on Kespa's archaic protectionist player policy, which isn't news anyway.
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On August 07 2014 11:17 EngrishTeacher wrote:
The fact remains that WEC posted brackets without confirmation, and is the root of all the disappointment. But Kespa hate is fashionable, so I guess the blame is now on Kespa's archaic protectionist player policy, which isn't news anyway.
Some blame is on
On August 06 2014 19:09 Xoronius wrote:
So Kespa is openly lying in their statement?
On August 06 2014 17:55 bduddy wrote:
Chuddinater, who works for KeSPA, stated that the organizers of WEC had never actually contacted the teams or players in the first place, and had simply released the bracket hoping they would show up.
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Sad to hear they officially pulled the players, but fair reasons given.
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On August 07 2014 11:14 zxdyn wrote:Show nested quote +KeSPA had made a policy to not take requests from tournaments in China unless they are recognized by the China General Sports Administration. The China General Sports Administration is a government body running large sports games like 2008 Beijing Olympics or 2013 World Swimming Championships. I don't think any SC2 tournament would be recognized by them. So actually, KeSPA players won't show up in any Chinese SC2 tournament. By the way, is MLG recognized by U.S. Department of Sports or American Sports Federation? Show nested quote +in September the KeSPA Cup will be held with all the top KeSPA players and players around the World. Real reason it is.
Comparing MLG to WEC is apples to oranges.
For one, MLG is a corporation registered in the state of New York, so it has a roster of owners and managers and a business address. They also ran several tournaments successfully with few complaints about accommodations or payment before they started dealing with Kespa, so they have a clear track record showing their ability to put on a good show and attract a large audience even without Korean players. It's also worth noting that it is easy for Korean citizens to enter the US and to leave with their prize money or have it transferred to Korea and converted to won.
This organization doesn't have any such thing. It's unclear where they are registered, who their owners and managers are, where their headquarters are located, and where they are getting the money. They have no apparent track record of putting on events or of having to put up players, managers, and guests in accommodations. The question of visas and prize money are also not trivial and the language barrier is huge because most Korean players do not speak Chinese or English. China is much stricter than the US or EU, both in terms of entering the country and capital controls (i.e. leaving with cash).
The kinds of things Kespa is looking for don't strike me as unfair or outrageous, especially for a country like China where almost nobody is familiar with their regulatory and legal system. It's one thing for IEM to throw an event in China, where the organization has also proved it knows what it's doing and how to handle things there. It's another to trust a totally unknown group to do it.
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New quote by xiaose: "I released the list, because all teams have agreed it (the invitation). When I asked whether it needs the agreement of kespa clearly, most team said it does not matter and they have the right to go by their own."
He quoted earlier: "There are only a few tournaments recognized by China General Sports Administration every year."
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On August 07 2014 12:24 pzlama333 wrote:
New quote by xiaose: "I released the list, because all teams have agreed it (the invitation). When I asked whether it needs the agreement of kespa clearly, most team said it does not matter and they have the right to go by their own."
He quoted earlier: "There are only a few tournaments recognized by China General Sports Administration every year."
That sounds like a little bit of BS, considering KeSPA governs all of the teams and it's not just an organization that puts on Proleague
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On August 07 2014 12:24 pzlama333 wrote:
New quote by xiaose: "I released the list, because all teams have agreed it (the invitation). When I asked whether it needs the agreement of kespa clearly, most team said it does not matter and they have the right to go by their own."
He quoted earlier: "There are only a few tournaments recognized by China General Sports Administration every year."
Those rebel teams are going to Kespa jail soon.
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United States97276 Posts
wow San vs Journey in the playin series? How unfortunate. I like them both
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Why all the KeSPA hate?
On August 07 2014 12:00 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 11:14 zxdyn wrote:KeSPA had made a policy to not take requests from tournaments in China unless they are recognized by the China General Sports Administration. The China General Sports Administration is a government body running large sports games like 2008 Beijing Olympics or 2013 World Swimming Championships. I don't think any SC2 tournament would be recognized by them. So actually, KeSPA players won't show up in any Chinese SC2 tournament. By the way, is MLG recognized by U.S. Department of Sports or American Sports Federation? in September the KeSPA Cup will be held with all the top KeSPA players and players around the World. Real reason it is. Comparing MLG to WEC is apples to oranges. For one, MLG is a corporation registered in the state of New York, so it has a roster of owners and managers and a business address. They also ran several tournaments successfully with few complaints about accommodations or payment before they started dealing with Kespa, so they have a clear track record showing their ability to put on a good show and attract a large audience even without Korean players. It's also worth noting that it is easy for Korean citizens to enter the US and to leave with their prize money or have it transferred to Korea and converted to won. This organization doesn't have any such thing. It's unclear where they are registered, who their owners and managers are, where their headquarters are located, and where they are getting the money. They have no apparent track record of putting on events or of having to put up players, managers, and guests in accommodations. The question of visas and prize money are also not trivial and the language barrier is huge because most Korean players do not speak Chinese or English. China is much stricter than the US or EU, both in terms of entering the country and capital controls (i.e. leaving with cash). The kinds of things Kespa is looking for don't strike me as unfair or outrageous, especially for a country like China where almost nobody is familiar with their regulatory and legal system. It's one thing for IEM to throw an event in China, where the organization has also proved it knows what it's doing and how to handle things there. It's another to trust a totally unknown group to do it.
This post needs more attention. Its exactly why KeSPA doesn't want to send any players to this competition yet, and its to protect their players. I know they have their own fault in stating that WEC didn't even contact them at all, but then again its also WEC's fault for not sending the required information, and registering with the Chinese General Sports Administration.
Furthermore, it seems like KeSPA had trouble with competitions held in China in the past and would not want to make the same mistake again, and especially considering WEC is a newly created organisation and without any solid background like MLG, KeSPA probably would not send anyone there.
Perhaps if WEC can succeed this time, KeSPA may consider sending players from the next round onwards.
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On August 07 2014 13:13 silvana wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 12:24 pzlama333 wrote:
New quote by xiaose: "I released the list, because all teams have agreed it (the invitation). When I asked whether it needs the agreement of kespa clearly, most team said it does not matter and they have the right to go by their own."
He quoted earlier: "There are only a few tournaments recognized by China General Sports Administration every year." Those rebel teams are going to Kespa jail soon.
Once behind bars, Kespa realizes the error of locking the entirety of themselves in Kespa jail.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
As long as they don't put Life in my cell I'm fine with that
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Korea (South)169 Posts
On August 07 2014 13:29 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 13:13 silvana wrote:On August 07 2014 12:24 pzlama333 wrote:
New quote by xiaose: "I released the list, because all teams have agreed it (the invitation). When I asked whether it needs the agreement of kespa clearly, most team said it does not matter and they have the right to go by their own."
He quoted earlier: "There are only a few tournaments recognized by China General Sports Administration every year." Those rebel teams are going to Kespa jail soon. Once behind bars, Kespa realizes the error of locking the entirety of themselves in Kespa jail.
WHAT HAVE WE DONE!!!!!!
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Sweden33719 Posts
[2014-08-06 오후 5:56:33] Jonathan Walsh: lol
[2014-08-06 오후 5:56:42] Jonathan Walsh: i bet what happened is the tournametn conmtacted players indivudally
[2014-08-06 오후 5:56:44] Jonathan Walsh: they signed up
[2014-08-06 오후 5:56:47] Jonathan Walsh: then kespa got mad they were
[2014-08-06 오후 5:56:49] Jonathan Walsh: circumvented
Also KeSPA will not work with any tournament or organizer that will not go through proper channels and procedures. They decided to try and navigate around us and contacted the players directly. We will not work with an organization that will try to circumvent the procedures we have in place.
Too predictable.
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omg. i do not know what to say anymore except : Let them play
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Korea (South)227 Posts
Meh. While its understandable to take precautions, I really think the risk should be for the players to decide. Not really liking this decision, players should be allowed to take the damn risk of not receiving some or all earnings they potentially can earn. If KeSPA just hammers them all down into submission, they have 0% chance to make ANY money.
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I guess most people here dont like being controlled/regulated by any kind of school/government/organization/firm/parents. Your occupation must be CEO, president or something
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On August 07 2014 14:37 Arceus wrote:
I guess most people here dont like being controlled/regulated by any kind of school/government/organization/firm/parents. Your occupation must be CEO, president or something
These are esports tournaments, not financial markets. They don't need regulation. To most people here, Kespa seems to serve little purpose other than its own furtherance. Especially considering how they tried to squash SC2 in its infancy, then try to muscle out GOM and unaffiliated players and then appointed themselves esports czars.
I don't know a lot about Korea, but it seems similar to Japan in that they have a rather- not sure if this is quite the right word- corporatist approach to commerce. It has it's benefits and drawbacks.
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Another quote by xiaose: "you may forget that when I contacted the teams, except skt and stork had some concern, all other teams said they can decide by their own. During the communication I clearly told them kespa would not allow them to participate. Though skt and Samsung had some concern, at last they all responded that even kespa did not agree, they (those teams) whether they would decide to go or not by their own. I do not know what kespa did to let them quit, but they really messed up something they lying that I did not contact them at all."
ps: currently China Central Government have a special investigation team in China General Sports Administration, so they are unable to recognize any esport event now.
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On August 07 2014 15:25 pzlama333 wrote:
Another quote by xiaose: "you may forget that when I contacted the teams, except skt and stork had some concern, all other teams said they can decide by their own. During the communication I clearly told them kespa would not allow them to participate. Though skt and Samsung had some concern, at last they all responded that even kespa did not agree, they (those teams) whether they would decide to go or not by their own. I do not know what kespa did to let them quit, but they really messed up something they lying that I did not contact them at all."
ps: currently China Central Government have a special investigation team in China General Sports Administration, so they are unable to recognize any esport event now.
This thread is useless without pics(of the message/mail send between the teams/players and WEC guys).
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On August 07 2014 14:55 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 14:37 Arceus wrote:
I guess most people here dont like being controlled/regulated by any kind of school/government/organization/firm/parents. Your occupation must be CEO, president or something These are esports tournaments, not financial markets. They don't need regulation.
Well I stop reading here, this is some video game thingy and not professional sport (aka esport like we love to proclaim) right. Teams and leagues screw over players everyday. Must be fun reading all those cry afterward on TL
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On August 07 2014 14:25 Orlok wrote:
Meh. While its understandable to take precautions, I really think the risk should be for the players to decide. Not really liking this decision, players should be allowed to take the damn risk of not receiving some or all earnings they potentially can earn. If KeSPA just hammers them all down into submission, they have 0% chance to make ANY money.
Meh the risk should be on teams, not players. Teams are paying them, teams have contracts with them and ultimately the only reason they even play the game is to promote their sponsors. And guess who actually is Kespa? Yes, its the representatives of teams and sponsors.
This whole forum (and reddit) are calling for professionalism all the time, but when something is handled like in real world, everyone just screams and kicks like a little baby...
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On August 07 2014 15:29 Arceus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 14:55 Jerubaal wrote:On August 07 2014 14:37 Arceus wrote:
I guess most people here dont like being controlled/regulated by any kind of school/government/organization/firm/parents. Your occupation must be CEO, president or something These are esports tournaments, not financial markets. They don't need regulation. Well I stop reading here, this is some video game thingy and not professional sport (aka esport like we love to proclaim) right. Teams and leagues screw over players everyday. Must be fun reading all those cry afterward on TL
You're a very combative person. Is your whole goal just to insult everyone?
This is normal Kespa petulance, not player protection.
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On August 07 2014 15:39 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 15:29 Arceus wrote:On August 07 2014 14:55 Jerubaal wrote:On August 07 2014 14:37 Arceus wrote:
I guess most people here dont like being controlled/regulated by any kind of school/government/organization/firm/parents. Your occupation must be CEO, president or something These are esports tournaments, not financial markets. They don't need regulation. Well I stop reading here, this is some video game thingy and not professional sport (aka esport like we love to proclaim) right. Teams and leagues screw over players everyday. Must be fun reading all those cry afterward on TL You're a very combative person. Is your whole goal just to insult everyone? This is normal Kespa petulance, not player protection.
Really...? How soon have we forgotten the Philippine fiasco...
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i have no problems with kespa...
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What's there to "protect"? It's not like they are going into wars. It's just a Starcraft tournament man.
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lol, it's been quite a while since last Kespa drama. It'll be interesting to see what will actually happen. I kinda hope players will still attend and we get a kickass tournament! 
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On August 07 2014 16:54 nukkuj wrote:lol, it's been quite a while since last Kespa drama. It'll be interesting to see what will actually happen. I kinda hope players will still attend and we get a kickass tournament!
how is this drama? sketchy tournament can't prove that they're going to pay out prize money so the kespa players aren't going to waste their time going to the event.
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On August 07 2014 16:57 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 16:54 nukkuj wrote:lol, it's been quite a while since last Kespa drama. It'll be interesting to see what will actually happen. I kinda hope players will still attend and we get a kickass tournament! how is this drama? sketchy tournament can't prove that they're going to pay out prize money so the kespa players aren't going to waste their time going to the event.
the tournament is approved by Blizzard and NetEase, which is the Chinese agency of Blizzard game. If KeSPA dont believe Blizzard, I have nothing to say.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 07 2014 20:03 gdsyzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 16:57 Dodgin wrote:On August 07 2014 16:54 nukkuj wrote:lol, it's been quite a while since last Kespa drama. It'll be interesting to see what will actually happen. I kinda hope players will still attend and we get a kickass tournament! how is this drama? sketchy tournament can't prove that they're going to pay out prize money so the kespa players aren't going to waste their time going to the event. the tournament is approved by Blizzard and NetEase, which is the Chinese agency of Blizzard game. If KeSPA dont believe Blizzard, I have nothing to say.
On August 07 2014 03:20 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 03:05 argonautdice wrote:
I don't understand why people say this tournament is shady. It's approved by Netease, Blizzard's Chinese branch and sponsored by well-known game, video and stream companies in China. Now it is difficult to get government documents in China in a week because of all the red tapes, so it's understandable that Kespa doesn't want to take the risk, but to say that WEC made up the lineup is just slander. IPL5 didn't pay people for months, it's reasonable to approach tournaments you're not organizing yourself with some skepticism. A lot of organizers in esports have trouble actually going through with their promises, I don't think you should just up and trust WEC because they're approved by anyone.
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On August 07 2014 20:07 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 20:03 gdsyzz wrote:On August 07 2014 16:57 Dodgin wrote:On August 07 2014 16:54 nukkuj wrote:lol, it's been quite a while since last Kespa drama. It'll be interesting to see what will actually happen. I kinda hope players will still attend and we get a kickass tournament! how is this drama? sketchy tournament can't prove that they're going to pay out prize money so the kespa players aren't going to waste their time going to the event. the tournament is approved by Blizzard and NetEase, which is the Chinese agency of Blizzard game. If KeSPA dont believe Blizzard, I have nothing to say. Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 03:20 Zealously wrote:On August 07 2014 03:05 argonautdice wrote:
I don't understand why people say this tournament is shady. It's approved by Netease, Blizzard's Chinese branch and sponsored by well-known game, video and stream companies in China. Now it is difficult to get government documents in China in a week because of all the red tapes, so it's understandable that Kespa doesn't want to take the risk, but to say that WEC made up the lineup is just slander. IPL5 didn't pay people for months, it's reasonable to approach tournaments you're not organizing yourself with some skepticism. A lot of organizers in esports have trouble actually going through with their promises, I don't think you should just up and trust WEC because they're approved by anyone.
Actually, the situation in China is different. Only a few tournament held by the national association has the "official" authorization from the National General Sports Administration. Most of the tournament dont have and never want to get the approval from the national governing body.
D8TV is a company resgisted in Shanghai and the WEC mainly held for Heart of Stone and Warcraft 3, Starcraft 2 being selected to the tournament only because Blizzard and NetEase ask them to do so.
Xiaose has posted some information today in the Chinese forum. He said " we contact the player and their team directly first. For example, during IEM Shenzhen, we asked Stork to join and he said " no problem". Both the player and their team are admitted to compete WEC. Meanwhile, we also ask whether they need the permission from KeSPA, most of the team, except SAMSUNG and SKT1, said they can decided by themselves. Even SKT1 said they will not send player to the game in the first place, however, after few days, they said " YES" to us. They main conflict between me and the staff from KeSPA is that he said we made "fake" list and we haven't contact anyone. If KeSPA dont want to send player, please dont accuse us like we lied to everyone. We would happy to change the roster if they asked. The statement made by KeSPA just want to get rid of the responsibility and only want to tell everyone what we say was fake. After all, I think we still get best player no matter KeSPA want to send their player or not. "
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"not the best words to use" lol
This is not a wording issue, the stuff he said was blatantly wrong.
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Did the kespa rep initially lie or did he just not know and there was miscommunication?
I mean... saying WEC never contacted anyone and then admitting WEC did contact people when the caster guy claims to have proof. That seems to imply the kespa rep responded initially without approval or full information. If that's the case then I'm not sure if the follow up statements are reliable without the other side replying.
The concerns cited by KESPA are legit though.
EDIT: Guess I need to wait and see when the dust clears. =]
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On August 07 2014 20:50 kc2siq wrote:
Did the kespa rep initially lie or did he just not know and there was miscommunication?
I mean... saying WEC never contacted anyone and then admitting WEC did contact people when the caster guy claims to have proof. That seems to imply the kespa rep responded initially without approval or full information. If that's the case then I'm not sure if the follow up statements are reliable without the other side replying.
The concerns cited by KESPA are legit though.
EDIT: Guess I need to wait and see when the dust clears. =]
the news of IEM Shenzhen in Chinese website, s.163.com, shows some evidence. The interview done by the NetEase guy contains the information about the invitation of WEC to Stork, innovation, and Hero, and the interviewers all said they are willing to come.
前面我们说到HerO因为比赛奖金而两眼发光，同样的事发生在总司令身上却变成了另一种态度。在听我说完比赛的奖金、赛程详细后，Stork并没有被巨额奖金所动，而是淡定的从裤子口袋里掏出了大屏三星手机，划开日历，仔细询问我比赛的日程，高下立判、安排档期总司令有木有？
"I tell Stork the tournament like I told to Hero. After I introduce the prize pool and some details of the tournament, Stork was not surprised by the huge prize pool. He just take out his phone and check his schedule. After that, he ask me the detail schedule of the tournament."
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Kespa lied, i don't see why anyone would be suprised by that.
They lied all the time.. they are like FIFA.. they want the control, no matter what, they want to be above the teams, the players, the organizers and even the owners of the game!
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On August 07 2014 21:19 shell wrote:
Kespa lied, i don't see why anyone would be suprised by that.
They lied all the time.. they are like FIFA.. they want the control, no matter what, they want to be above the teams, the players, the organizers and even the owners of the game!
They ARE the teams though. Kespa is made by the representatives of teams and sponsors.
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China General Sports Administration...
What do they know about e-sports... they can't even organize a football team
But do sounds like something Kespa would trust, because they are similar enough in some aspect
Guess we can all wait till this tournament is over and find out
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Kespa killing Esports confirmed
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Remember back in the day when everyone knew Kespa was full of scumbags? But seriously this just looks like they are back on their powertrip.
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haha this topic is so funny but at least it show how much gap there is between pro/amateur
Do you known there is only 23 countries in IeSF... and SouthKorea is the only country trying to help esport worldwide
If KeSPA dont believe Blizzard, I have nothing to say. They hate each other since gomtv revival......
In Xiaose's statement,
Meanwhile, we also ask whether they need the permission from KeSPA, most of the team, except SAMSUNG and SKT1, said they can decided by themselves.
seems really weird since Kespa = teams and also kespa > teams
If KeSPA dont want to send player, please dont accuse us like we lied to everyone.
^^ they posted a roster before all agreement/concern where settle. That was a lie and a deal breaker of trust, end of story.
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On August 07 2014 14:55 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 14:37 Arceus wrote:
I guess most people here dont like being controlled/regulated by any kind of school/government/organization/firm/parents. Your occupation must be CEO, president or something These are esports tournaments, not financial markets. They don't need regulation. To most people here, Kespa seems to serve little purpose other than its own furtherance. Especially considering how they tried to squash SC2 in its infancy, then try to muscle out GOM and unaffiliated players and then appointed themselves esports czars.
About KeSPA trying to sabotage SC2 - Blizzard tried to kill off BW and they tried to bully KeSPA just before SC2 was released.
When Blizzard was like "switch to SC2 or pay money to broadcast BW", KeSPA reacted in kind.
The whole KeSPA vs SC2 thing was mainly due to Blizzard. Blizzard tried to bully KeSPA Into switching to SC2 (they didn't want to switch since BW was still popular) and then bully KeSPA into paying for broadcasting fees (which KeSPA eventually did have to do) - So them trying to sabotage SC2 was kind of understandable.
The thing with BW, SC2, KeSPA, and Blizzard was that KeSPA was doing BW tournaments for nearly a decade before SC2 came out.
Then as soon as SC2 was about to be released, Blizzard demanded payment from KeSPA and claimed that they were infringing copyright and profiting off of their game (which while true - you also have to consider KeSPA promoted their game which way more valuable than this copyright infringement Blizzard claims. BW sold 4-5 million copies in South Korea alone and while you can't attribute it all to KeSPA, you also can't deny that KeSPA helped with that either with the huge viewership numbers KeSPA tournaments brought to BW).
Plus what Blizzard asked was kind of silly too. Technically they could do that but it was still silly.
Valve didn't go around and say you can't have CS 1.6 tournaments when CS:Source was released (likewise - They didn't go around and say you can't have CS 1.6 or CS:Source tournaments when CS:Global Offensive was released). Capcom didn't go around and say you can't broadcast SF2 tournaments anymore when SF4 was released.
And Valve didn't tell Icefrog to stop updating DotA on WC3 (DotA still gets updated on WC3 as, actually they even come before, Dota 2 updates are released) which is actually a huge deal too (hey if people still play DotA on WC3 - That means they can't buy cosmetics in Dota 2 - therefore less profit - Since Icefrog works for Valve now, Valve can just tell Icefrog to stop updating DotA on WC3 right? Nope, in fact Valve supports Icefrog with keeping DotA on WC3 up to date - If they like the game enough, they'll just switch over to Dota 2 when the time is right - Unlike Blizzard who is like "nope, you guys are going to switch to SC2 right now or we are going to sue you for broadcasting these BW tournaments without our authorization").
There are a lot of silliess with KeSPA but at least with KeSPA and SC2 (and Blizzard), I have to side with KeSPA on this one since Blizzard was the one who bullied KeSPA (they saw BW was a huge thing in South Korea - Wanted KeSPA to cooperate with them and do the same with SC2, then when they said no, they tried to bully them and shut down BW altogether).
Of course there is a lot of legit silliness with KeSPA (like the whole KeSPA players aren't allowed to participate in Code S after they switched over and it took eSF players not participating in OSL to convince KeSPA otherwise) but at least with KeSPA and SC2 (and Blizzard), I have to side with KeSPA on that one.
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On August 07 2014 21:56 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 21:19 shell wrote:
Kespa lied, i don't see why anyone would be suprised by that.
They lied all the time.. they are like FIFA.. they want the control, no matter what, they want to be above the teams, the players, the organizers and even the owners of the game!
They ARE the teams though. Kespa is made by the representatives of teams and sponsors.
Tell me that all of the managers of the teams got together and they all didn't want to participate.
Because I seriously doubt that's what happened.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2014 03:19 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 14:55 Jerubaal wrote:On August 07 2014 14:37 Arceus wrote:
I guess most people here dont like being controlled/regulated by any kind of school/government/organization/firm/parents. Your occupation must be CEO, president or something These are esports tournaments, not financial markets. They don't need regulation. To most people here, Kespa seems to serve little purpose other than its own furtherance. Especially considering how they tried to squash SC2 in its infancy, then try to muscle out GOM and unaffiliated players and then appointed themselves esports czars. About KeSPA trying to sabotage SC2 - Blizzard tried to kill off BW and they tried to bully KeSPA just before SC2 was released. When Blizzard was like "switch to SC2 or pay money to broadcast BW", KeSPA reacted in kind. The whole KeSPA vs SC2 thing was mainly due to Blizzard. Blizzard tried to bully KeSPA Into switching to SC2 (they didn't want to switch since BW was still popular) and then bully KeSPA into paying for broadcasting fees (which KeSPA eventually did have to do) - So them trying to sabotage SC2 was kind of understandable. The thing with BW, SC2, KeSPA, and Blizzard was that KeSPA was doing BW tournaments for nearly a decade before SC2 came out. Then as soon as SC2 was about to be released, Blizzard demanded payment from KeSPA and claimed that they were infringing copyright and profiting off of their game (which while true - you also have to consider KeSPA promoted their game which way more valuable than this "copyright infringement" Blizzard claims. BW sold 4-5 million copies in South Korea alone and while you can't attribute it all to KeSPA, you also can't deny that KeSPA helped with that either with the huge viewership numbers KeSPA tournaments brought to BW). Plus what Blizzard asked was kind of silly too. Technically they could do that but it was still in bad taste. Valve didn't go around and say you can't have CS 1.6 tournaments when CS:Source was released (likewise - They didn't go around and say you can't have CS 1.6 or CS:Source tournaments when CS:Global Offensive was released). Capcom didn't go around and say you can't broadcast SF2 tournaments anymore when SF4 was released. And Valve didn't tell Icefrog to stop updating DotA on WC3 (DotA still gets updated on WC3 as, actually they even come before, Dota 2 updates are released) which is actually a huge deal too (hey if people still play DotA on WC3 - That means they can't buy cosmetics in Dota 2 - therefore less profit - Since Icefrog works for Valve now, Valve can just tell Icefrog to stop updating DotA on WC3 right? Nope, in fact Valve supports Icefrog with keeping DotA on WC3 up to date - If they like the game enough, they'll just switch over to Dota 2 when the time is right - Unlike Blizzard who is like "nope, you guys are going to switch to SC2 right now or we are going to sue you for broadcasting these BW tournaments without our authorization"). There are a lot of silliess with KeSPA but at least with KeSPA and SC2 (and Blizzard), I have to side with KeSPA on this one since Blizzard was the one who bullied KeSPA (they saw BW was a huge thing in South Korea - Wanted KeSPA to cooperate with them and do the same with SC2, then when they said no, they tried to bully them and shut down BW altogether). Of course there is a lot of legit silliness with KeSPA (like the whole KeSPA players aren't allowed to participate in Code S after they switched over and it took eSF players not participating in OSL to convince KeSPA otherwise) but at least with KeSPA and SC2 (and Blizzard), I have to side with KeSPA on that one.
So you're saying the owners of the game who want control are wrong and the mobsters who manipulate the government for their own end are right. Hokay.
And Dota 1 was irrelevant to esports 3 years ago so that's not a good example.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On August 08 2014 03:37 Jerubaal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2014 03:19 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 14:55 Jerubaal wrote:On August 07 2014 14:37 Arceus wrote:
I guess most people here dont like being controlled/regulated by any kind of school/government/organization/firm/parents. Your occupation must be CEO, president or something These are esports tournaments, not financial markets. They don't need regulation. To most people here, Kespa seems to serve little purpose other than its own furtherance. Especially considering how they tried to squash SC2 in its infancy, then try to muscle out GOM and unaffiliated players and then appointed themselves esports czars. About KeSPA trying to sabotage SC2 - Blizzard tried to kill off BW and they tried to bully KeSPA just before SC2 was released. When Blizzard was like "switch to SC2 or pay money to broadcast BW", KeSPA reacted in kind. The whole KeSPA vs SC2 thing was mainly due to Blizzard. Blizzard tried to bully KeSPA Into switching to SC2 (they didn't want to switch since BW was still popular) and then bully KeSPA into paying for broadcasting fees (which KeSPA eventually did have to do) - So them trying to sabotage SC2 was kind of understandable. The thing with BW, SC2, KeSPA, and Blizzard was that KeSPA was doing BW tournaments for nearly a decade before SC2 came out. Then as soon as SC2 was about to be released, Blizzard demanded payment from KeSPA and claimed that they were infringing copyright and profiting off of their game (which while true - you also have to consider KeSPA promoted their game which way more valuable than this "copyright infringement" Blizzard claims. BW sold 4-5 million copies in South Korea alone and while you can't attribute it all to KeSPA, you also can't deny that KeSPA helped with that either with the huge viewership numbers KeSPA tournaments brought to BW). Plus what Blizzard asked was kind of silly too. Technically they could do that but it was still in bad taste. Valve didn't go around and say you can't have CS 1.6 tournaments when CS:Source was released (likewise - They didn't go around and say you can't have CS 1.6 or CS:Source tournaments when CS:Global Offensive was released). Capcom didn't go around and say you can't broadcast SF2 tournaments anymore when SF4 was released. And Valve didn't tell Icefrog to stop updating DotA on WC3 (DotA still gets updated on WC3 as, actually they even come before, Dota 2 updates are released) which is actually a huge deal too (hey if people still play DotA on WC3 - That means they can't buy cosmetics in Dota 2 - therefore less profit - Since Icefrog works for Valve now, Valve can just tell Icefrog to stop updating DotA on WC3 right? Nope, in fact Valve supports Icefrog with keeping DotA on WC3 up to date - If they like the game enough, they'll just switch over to Dota 2 when the time is right - Unlike Blizzard who is like "nope, you guys are going to switch to SC2 right now or we are going to sue you for broadcasting these BW tournaments without our authorization"). There are a lot of silliess with KeSPA but at least with KeSPA and SC2 (and Blizzard), I have to side with KeSPA on this one since Blizzard was the one who bullied KeSPA (they saw BW was a huge thing in South Korea - Wanted KeSPA to cooperate with them and do the same with SC2, then when they said no, they tried to bully them and shut down BW altogether). Of course there is a lot of legit silliness with KeSPA (like the whole KeSPA players aren't allowed to participate in Code S after they switched over and it took eSF players not participating in OSL to convince KeSPA otherwise) but at least with KeSPA and SC2 (and Blizzard), I have to side with KeSPA on that one. So you're saying the owners of the game who want control are wrong and the mobsters who manipulate the government for their own end are right. Hokay. And Dota 1 was irrelevant to esports 3 years ago so that's not a good example.
Rofl, if you hadn't watched it, it doesn't mean that dota wasn't relevant as esport, noone played it and noone knew about it.
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On August 08 2014 03:33 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 21:56 Ammanas wrote:On August 07 2014 21:19 shell wrote:
Kespa lied, i don't see why anyone would be suprised by that.
They lied all the time.. they are like FIFA.. they want the control, no matter what, they want to be above the teams, the players, the organizers and even the owners of the game!
They ARE the teams though. Kespa is made by the representatives of teams and sponsors. Tell me that all of the managers of the teams got together and they all didn't want to participate. Because I seriously doubt that's what happened.
I didn't say anything about managers, head coaches or anything like that. I said representatives of teams and sponsors (don't forget that Kespa corporate teams are owned by the sponsors iirc).
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I don't really know the specifics of Kespa but the way I've understood it all the teams have signed with Kespa. Which means that if a team disregards Kespas rules or decisions they can most likely count themselves out or at least get some fines or shit. Seeing what happens when you type gg in xx I don't want to know what they do if a team ignores their decision and sends all their players to a tournament like this.......
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On August 08 2014 03:37 Jerubaal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2014 03:19 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 14:55 Jerubaal wrote:On August 07 2014 14:37 Arceus wrote:
I guess most people here dont like being controlled/regulated by any kind of school/government/organization/firm/parents. Your occupation must be CEO, president or something These are esports tournaments, not financial markets. They don't need regulation. To most people here, Kespa seems to serve little purpose other than its own furtherance. Especially considering how they tried to squash SC2 in its infancy, then try to muscle out GOM and unaffiliated players and then appointed themselves esports czars. About KeSPA trying to sabotage SC2 - Blizzard tried to kill off BW and they tried to bully KeSPA just before SC2 was released. When Blizzard was like "switch to SC2 or pay money to broadcast BW", KeSPA reacted in kind. The whole KeSPA vs SC2 thing was mainly due to Blizzard. Blizzard tried to bully KeSPA Into switching to SC2 (they didn't want to switch since BW was still popular) and then bully KeSPA into paying for broadcasting fees (which KeSPA eventually did have to do) - So them trying to sabotage SC2 was kind of understandable. The thing with BW, SC2, KeSPA, and Blizzard was that KeSPA was doing BW tournaments for nearly a decade before SC2 came out. Then as soon as SC2 was about to be released, Blizzard demanded payment from KeSPA and claimed that they were infringing copyright and profiting off of their game (which while true - you also have to consider KeSPA promoted their game which way more valuable than this "copyright infringement" Blizzard claims. BW sold 4-5 million copies in South Korea alone and while you can't attribute it all to KeSPA, you also can't deny that KeSPA helped with that either with the huge viewership numbers KeSPA tournaments brought to BW). Plus what Blizzard asked was kind of silly too. Technically they could do that but it was still in bad taste. Valve didn't go around and say you can't have CS 1.6 tournaments when CS:Source was released (likewise - They didn't go around and say you can't have CS 1.6 or CS:Source tournaments when CS:Global Offensive was released). Capcom didn't go around and say you can't broadcast SF2 tournaments anymore when SF4 was released. And Valve didn't tell Icefrog to stop updating DotA on WC3 (DotA still gets updated on WC3 as, actually they even come before, Dota 2 updates are released) which is actually a huge deal too (hey if people still play DotA on WC3 - That means they can't buy cosmetics in Dota 2 - therefore less profit - Since Icefrog works for Valve now, Valve can just tell Icefrog to stop updating DotA on WC3 right? Nope, in fact Valve supports Icefrog with keeping DotA on WC3 up to date - If they like the game enough, they'll just switch over to Dota 2 when the time is right - Unlike Blizzard who is like "nope, you guys are going to switch to SC2 right now or we are going to sue you for broadcasting these BW tournaments without our authorization"). There are a lot of silliess with KeSPA but at least with KeSPA and SC2 (and Blizzard), I have to side with KeSPA on this one since Blizzard was the one who bullied KeSPA (they saw BW was a huge thing in South Korea - Wanted KeSPA to cooperate with them and do the same with SC2, then when they said no, they tried to bully them and shut down BW altogether). Of course there is a lot of legit silliness with KeSPA (like the whole KeSPA players aren't allowed to participate in Code S after they switched over and it took eSF players not participating in OSL to convince KeSPA otherwise) but at least with KeSPA and SC2 (and Blizzard), I have to side with KeSPA on that one. So you're saying the owners of the game who want control are wrong and the mobsters who manipulate the government for their own end are right. Hokay. And Dota 1 was irrelevant to esports 3 years ago so that's not a good example.
Errr no, he's saying that not everything is black and white and there's a ton of details to look at, which you apparently completely missed.
Edit: And DotA 1 was irrelevant?! Sure, it wasn't that huge in the US, but it sure as hell was relevant in EU and Asia. Come on now.
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There has been way too much focus on how disappointing KeSPA's behavior has been and way too little focus on how awesome this tournament will still be.
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On August 07 2014 20:07 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 20:03 gdsyzz wrote:On August 07 2014 16:57 Dodgin wrote:On August 07 2014 16:54 nukkuj wrote:lol, it's been quite a while since last Kespa drama. It'll be interesting to see what will actually happen. I kinda hope players will still attend and we get a kickass tournament! how is this drama? sketchy tournament can't prove that they're going to pay out prize money so the kespa players aren't going to waste their time going to the event. the tournament is approved by Blizzard and NetEase, which is the Chinese agency of Blizzard game. If KeSPA dont believe Blizzard, I have nothing to say. Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 03:20 Zealously wrote:On August 07 2014 03:05 argonautdice wrote:
I don't understand why people say this tournament is shady. It's approved by Netease, Blizzard's Chinese branch and sponsored by well-known game, video and stream companies in China. Now it is difficult to get government documents in China in a week because of all the red tapes, so it's understandable that Kespa doesn't want to take the risk, but to say that WEC made up the lineup is just slander. IPL5 didn't pay people for months, it's reasonable to approach tournaments you're not organizing yourself with some skepticism. A lot of organizers in esports have trouble actually going through with their promises, I don't think you should just up and trust WEC because they're approved by anyone.
I'm pretty sure there are still players that haven't been paid for IPL5.
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I don't know what to think about this, honestly I am kinda siding with KeSPA on this one...
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On August 08 2014 05:50 Pontius Pirate wrote:
There has been way too much focus on how disappointing KeSPA's behavior has been and way too little focus on how awesome this tournament will still be.
I find it more disappointing that TL members still fail when it comes to understanding what KeSPA represents.
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Blizzard just got kespa'd. I love this.
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This is sad and very unfortunate... I wish WEC had done their work better than this =="
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And I actually screamed out loud when I saw the playerlist...
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On August 07 2014 03:18 Mattidute wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 01:38 Ammanas wrote:On August 07 2014 01:00 shell wrote:On August 06 2014 23:06 Gamlet wrote:
Kespa power!!!JD leave EG plz.Back to Korea plz. Yeah!! Go back to Kespa where you can't stream and can't participate in no tournament! Do that because we love you so much , that we don't want to see you play or earn money! ^^ fuck kespa Well, Jaedong playing in Proleague and GSL (plus having same opportunities as all the other Kespa players of qualifying for foreign tournaments) >>> Jaedong playing WCS AM and every possible Dreamhack / whatever else cashgrab tournament is going on. People are acting like Kespa players don't get to play tournaments, which is simply not true. Every online qualifier is filled with players from at least CJ and Samsung, sometimes KT and SKT players and ofc IM/MVP/Prime. Only JinAir mostly doesn't allow their players to participate, but I expect this to change now that SPL almost ended. Jin Air won't change much in sending players out, SKT and KT will most likely also not send out that many players to foreign even after ProLeague is over as those 3 teams simply have not much to gain from doing it as their product is simply not being available outside of South Korea and some Asian countries, it's why CJ and Samsung do send out their players more often (CJ Entus being part of CJ E&M which is a subsidiary under CJ Group that deals with all entertainment that they own (k-pop and korean films/drama/variety show among things, Samsung for their phone/tv/monitor/etc. products).
well, IEM Toronto KR qualifiers only a few days after Proleague ended. Every single Kespa team has players in it, including JinAir, SKT and KT...
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EPT
