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On July 08 2014 04:30 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 04:21 VArsovskiSC wrote:
To make matters even worse/more-fragile - those drops are far too strong.. Zerg can't kill 30 workers in 5 seconds unless baneling drops, Protoss can't either, Terran CAN with the most produced unit in the game, so.. Not unfair for Terran to have other disadvantages TBH..
BUT - Terran needs to get rid of that "clock" somehow without changing the gameplay (or at least those being as minimal as possible) before Care to link us all those games with Medivac drops killing 30 workers in 5 seconds? An important thing to consider is that it's not at all the same thing if the clock starts ticking at 16' or 25'. There's also a huge difference between the disadvantage after this time being 45:55 or 20:80...
You really have to be biased to not admit that one.. Even Naniwa himself or Huk were losing10-15 like probes in a matter of seconds (say like 3-4 seconds before he realizes if "busy" in a fight) to drops
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On July 08 2014 04:37 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 04:30 TheDwf wrote:On July 08 2014 04:21 VArsovskiSC wrote:
To make matters even worse/more-fragile - those drops are far too strong.. Zerg can't kill 30 workers in 5 seconds unless baneling drops, Protoss can't either, Terran CAN with the most produced unit in the game, so.. Not unfair for Terran to have other disadvantages TBH..
BUT - Terran needs to get rid of that "clock" somehow without changing the gameplay (or at least those being as minimal as possible) before Care to link us all those games with Medivac drops killing 30 workers in 5 seconds? An important thing to consider is that it's not at all the same thing if the clock starts ticking at 16' or 25'. There's also a huge difference between the disadvantage after this time being 45:55 or 20:80... You really have to be biased to not admit that one.. Even Naniwa himself or Huk were losing10-15 like probes in a matter of seconds (say like 3-4 seconds before he realizes if "busy" in a fight) to drops
That didn't answer his question.
It IS entirely possible for Terran to have the strongest mid-game, and weakest late-game.. And buffing it's superiority at the 11 minute mark over both others is NOT the answer..
Here is the whole issue that everyone seems to confuse. Let's say we are at late-game TvZ. 200/200 vs 200/200 in supply. Neither player has a bank. Now, alot of people are mistakenly thinking that the game is even at this point, but it's not unusal that the value of the zerg army supply is 50% higher. Then zerg goes on to crush the terran army and people mistakenly think that it's terran late game that is way way too weak. However, that completley ignores that zerg got extremely far ahead in the midgame. There are obviously two solutions to this balance issue;
- Buff terran in midgame --> Zerg cannot reliably get such an army value lead
- Buff teran in late game --> SO zerg gets ahead in army value but terran can fight very cost effective late game
(it is btw worth noting that a mine-buff does both).
IF the buff is late-game only, what happens in the midgame if terran is weak? I tell you what happens: Terran sits in his base behind building wallofs while turtling to that superior army while zerg spreads creep and takes bases and nothing interesting actually happens.
The way zerg works in Sc2, terran/protoss needs to have very strong offensive tools in the midgame in order to create interesting games. Then the creep-spread functions as an important part of the defensive advantage which allows the zerg to not die in this part of game, and since the terran bio army is out on the map, the zerg player can do a lot of counterattacking in this phase of the game.
A stronger terran TvZ midgame is therefore a much more interesting way of balancing the game, and it is worth pointing out that a Mine-buff is a small buff to late-game as well. So rather than having no bank in a 200/200 vs 200/200 TvZ situation, the terran player will have a bank which allows him to army-trade in the late game, thus balances it that way.
Again, not saying that tanks couldn't be buffed as well, however, a Mine-buff is by far the most likely solution to making the game more interesting while improving balance.
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On July 08 2014 04:39 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 04:37 VArsovskiSC wrote:On July 08 2014 04:30 TheDwf wrote:On July 08 2014 04:21 VArsovskiSC wrote:
To make matters even worse/more-fragile - those drops are far too strong.. Zerg can't kill 30 workers in 5 seconds unless baneling drops, Protoss can't either, Terran CAN with the most produced unit in the game, so.. Not unfair for Terran to have other disadvantages TBH..
BUT - Terran needs to get rid of that "clock" somehow without changing the gameplay (or at least those being as minimal as possible) before Care to link us all those games with Medivac drops killing 30 workers in 5 seconds? An important thing to consider is that it's not at all the same thing if the clock starts ticking at 16' or 25'. There's also a huge difference between the disadvantage after this time being 45:55 or 20:80... You really have to be biased to not admit that one.. Even Naniwa himself or Huk were losing10-15 like probes in a matter of seconds (say like 3-4 seconds before he realizes if "busy" in a fight) to drops That didn't answer his question.
WHAT ? Replays ?
Come on.. As opposed you don't know it as well.. ? (sorry man, have other things to do now)
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On July 08 2014 04:37 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 04:30 TheDwf wrote:On July 08 2014 04:21 VArsovskiSC wrote:
To make matters even worse/more-fragile - those drops are far too strong.. Zerg can't kill 30 workers in 5 seconds unless baneling drops, Protoss can't either, Terran CAN with the most produced unit in the game, so.. Not unfair for Terran to have other disadvantages TBH..
BUT - Terran needs to get rid of that "clock" somehow without changing the gameplay (or at least those being as minimal as possible) before Care to link us all those games with Medivac drops killing 30 workers in 5 seconds? An important thing to consider is that it's not at all the same thing if the clock starts ticking at 16' or 25'. There's also a huge difference between the disadvantage after this time being 45:55 or 20:80... You really have to be biased to not admit that one.. Even Naniwa himself or Huk were losing10-15 like probes in a matter of seconds (say like 3-4 seconds before he realizes if "busy" in a fight) to drops
I sure hope those are not your top Protoss standards?
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Thinking REALLY far outside the box, how about a 500/500 5 min warpgate-like upgrade that allows terran to turn all their Barracks into factories?
I'm thinking like a 15-20 min post hive timing while 4th/5th is being contested that gives both players time to prepare for a much smoother transition.
Zerg player could think "ok, now I've stabilized on 4/5 bases with 3/3 and Hive tech, I need to worry about those 8 Barracks turning into 8 Factories soon"
Terran player could think "great I have a better next step when I get my 4th instead of turning 8 barracks into 12 and using the same composition I had at 7 mins.
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On July 08 2014 04:43 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 04:37 VArsovskiSC wrote:On July 08 2014 04:30 TheDwf wrote:On July 08 2014 04:21 VArsovskiSC wrote:
To make matters even worse/more-fragile - those drops are far too strong.. Zerg can't kill 30 workers in 5 seconds unless baneling drops, Protoss can't either, Terran CAN with the most produced unit in the game, so.. Not unfair for Terran to have other disadvantages TBH..
BUT - Terran needs to get rid of that "clock" somehow without changing the gameplay (or at least those being as minimal as possible) before Care to link us all those games with Medivac drops killing 30 workers in 5 seconds? An important thing to consider is that it's not at all the same thing if the clock starts ticking at 16' or 25'. There's also a huge difference between the disadvantage after this time being 45:55 or 20:80... You really have to be biased to not admit that one.. Even Naniwa himself or Huk were losing10-15 like probes in a matter of seconds (say like 3-4 seconds before he realizes if "busy" in a fight) to drops I sure hope those are not your top Protoss standards?
OK - SO - why don't pros move away their workers vs Zerglings, nor sometimes even vs Zealots (unless there are like dozen of them), but run like hell as if from the devil itself when there are Marines even in the amount from a single Medivac ?
Please - don't bash.. They're legit enough.. Remember - game should be balanced for "everyone" as opposed to only Classic vs Taeja.. If those were the only ones the community cared - we'd have not been here "whining" but instead we'd play the game and feel "fair" all the time..
That "prove me wrong" mentality that you just "used" to "oppose" my point is the EXACT SAME REASON why we ALL are "bitching" on this forumnow, cause it's the exact same "mentality" that David Kim himself has (or at least we perceive he has)
And YES - I am looking for a game/moment of a game that that happens so you'd "find out what you already know" (It will take time), but I wonder if it would cause the "you were right" "fine".. Terrans stayed blind to that for like ages now, why should one of just "admit" that now 
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On July 08 2014 04:37 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 04:30 TheDwf wrote:On July 08 2014 04:21 VArsovskiSC wrote:
To make matters even worse/more-fragile - those drops are far too strong.. Zerg can't kill 30 workers in 5 seconds unless baneling drops, Protoss can't either, Terran CAN with the most produced unit in the game, so.. Not unfair for Terran to have other disadvantages TBH..
BUT - Terran needs to get rid of that "clock" somehow without changing the gameplay (or at least those being as minimal as possible) before Care to link us all those games with Medivac drops killing 30 workers in 5 seconds? An important thing to consider is that it's not at all the same thing if the clock starts ticking at 16' or 25'. There's also a huge difference between the disadvantage after this time being 45:55 or 20:80... You really have to be biased to not admit that one.. Even Naniwa himself or Huk were losing10-15 like probes in a matter of seconds (say like 3-4 seconds before he realizes if "busy" in a fight) to drops
The time it takes to fully unload a medivac full of marines by itself exceeds your numbers, let alone actually doing a full amount of damage. Yet here you are talking about bias...
But yes, the basic idea of multi-pronged aggression is to do damage in at least one area while your opponent is distracted somewhere else. Zergling/baneling/zealot runbys perform the same kind of role. You don't necessarily have to drop to catch an opponent off guard and rampage their economy, either. Perhaps you missed HyuN vs. Polt this weekend, where HyuN kept decimating Polt's third base economy in a matter of seconds on Frost with a few banelings while Polt was distracted elsewhere -- multiple times.
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On July 08 2014 04:59 VArsovskiSC wrote:
OK - SO - why don't pros move away their workers vs Zerglings, nor sometimes even vs Zealots (unless there are like dozen of them), but run like hell as if from the devil itself when there are Marines even in the amount from a single Medivac ?
For the same reason these other players fail to do so against the medivacs when the drops actually do sick damage like you're complaining about; the players are distracted and not aware of the economic damage being done. Or are you actually implying that Terran pros don't evacuate mining against lings and zealots? That'd be a pretty silly thing to imply.
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On July 08 2014 04:39 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 04:37 VArsovskiSC wrote:On July 08 2014 04:30 TheDwf wrote:On July 08 2014 04:21 VArsovskiSC wrote:
To make matters even worse/more-fragile - those drops are far too strong.. Zerg can't kill 30 workers in 5 seconds unless baneling drops, Protoss can't either, Terran CAN with the most produced unit in the game, so.. Not unfair for Terran to have other disadvantages TBH..
BUT - Terran needs to get rid of that "clock" somehow without changing the gameplay (or at least those being as minimal as possible) before Care to link us all those games with Medivac drops killing 30 workers in 5 seconds? An important thing to consider is that it's not at all the same thing if the clock starts ticking at 16' or 25'. There's also a huge difference between the disadvantage after this time being 45:55 or 20:80... You really have to be biased to not admit that one.. Even Naniwa himself or Huk were losing10-15 like probes in a matter of seconds (say like 3-4 seconds before he realizes if "busy" in a fight) to drops That didn't answer his question. Show nested quote +It IS entirely possible for Terran to have the strongest mid-game, and weakest late-game.. And buffing it's superiority at the 11 minute mark over both others is NOT the answer.. Here is the whole issue that everyone seems to confuse. Let's say we are at late-game TvZ. 200/200 vs 200/200 in supply. Neither player has a bank. Now, alot of people are mistakenly thinking that the game is even at this point, but it's not unusal that the value of the zerg army supply is 50% higher. Then zerg goes on to crush the terran army and people mistakenly think that it's terran late game that is way way too weak. However, that completley ignores that zerg got extremely far ahead in the midgame. There are obviously two solutions to this balance issue; - Buff terran in midgame --> Zerg cannot reliably get such an army value lead - Buff teran in late game --> SO zerg gets ahead in army value but terran can fight very cost effective late game (it is btw worth noting that a mine-buff does both). IF the buff is late-game only, what happens in the midgame if terran is weak? I tell you what happens: Terran sits in his base behind building wallofs while turtling to that superior army while zerg spreads creep and takes bases and nothing interesting actually happens. The way zerg works in Sc2, terran/protoss needs to have very strong offensive tools in the midgame in order to create interesting games. Then the creep-spread functions as an important part of the defensive advantage which allows the zerg to not die in this part of game, and since the terran bio army is out on the map, the zerg player can do a lot of counterattacking in this phase of the game. A stronger terran TvZ midgame is therefore a much more interesting way of balancing the game, and it is worth pointing out that a Mine-buff is a small buff to late-game as well. So rather than having no bank in a 200/200 vs 200/200 TvZ situation, the terran player will have a bank which allows him to army-trade in the late game, thus balances it that way. Again, not saying that tanks couldn't be buffed as well, however, a Mine-buff is by far the most likely solution to making the game more interesting while improving balance.
I kind of get what you are trying to say.
Still the example you used is bad.
Zerg will always be able to field more expensive armies. Their infrastructure is far cheaper. Terran has to spend more on buildings to build the army while zerg spends it on units directly. An extreme case would be Roach bane all ins, it's quite common to see 3x the army value for zerg in such games. The game has to be balanced around what different races can build at certain times in the game. The actual army value is not really a good indicator.
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Zerg will always be able to field more expensive armies. Their infrastructure is far cheaper. Terran has to spend more on buildings to build the army while zerg spends it on units directly. An extreme case would be Roach bane all ins, it's quite common to see 3x the army value for zerg in such games. The game has to be balanced around what different races can build at certain times in the game. The actual army value is not really a good indicator.
No it's not a bad example, but extremely relevant. Already right now your seeing every terran player attempt to move out in midgame to try and kill creep. But this specific act is really challenging for terran and they often get behind in this phase of the game. I believe that if they had an easier time killing a bit of creep/trading + easier time escaping when the zerg tried to overrun the terran army (you can escape behind stronger Mines) then the whole matchup dynamic is going to be a lot better. Because from my experience the game isn't imbalanced in the late game when the zerg doesn't have an extremely large econ lead and/or no sick creep spread.
Army value is still an indicator regardless of assymetry in the game: When one race has 50% more, equal supply and neither race has a bank, then that race is pretty far ahead.
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Call me crazy... but I think a large portion of the problem is Terran's advanced abilities to kill off their own troops... and Thors.
Widow Mines, Tanks and Raven Seeker Missiles all have strong AOE splash and all 3 lack precision targeting. Tanks are a little bit more manageable than the other two, but all 3 are easily dragged right onto our own units. Our own, often quite vulnerable units. It really doesn't help if we splash a significant portion of our own army.
I've seen quite a few videos when a blitz of Seeker Missiles (when they actually activate) actually landing tends to turn sour when the targeted Mutas normally, run them straight into the raven clump. Sure it took out the mutas, but it takes out the ravens and everything under them too. Widow mines are so difficult to use for this reason too, as they can easily be dragged into MMM formations and cause plenty of damage themselves.
In reality, Terran seems to be the only race with this problem, and it's frankly... stupid. Why do Baneling detonations not kill other zerg units? I accept that friendly banelings should be immune, else they would chain themselves so well as to be useless, but why are zerglings/hydras/roaches also immune? It's not as if the Zerglings aren't there simply as ablative flesh for the banelings, so having them caught up int he explosion is perfectly fine I think. (or simply remove friendly fire)
Protoss only have a single form of self-damaging splash, Psi-Storms, and they are pretty easy to avoid seeing as they are completely targeted.
Then there's Thors, like Marines and Mines, they are at best a stop-gap counter to Mutas, seeing as we can't chase them down or fight them in the air. We have to rely on our opponent making a mistake and committing them unwisely. Even then, our best response... Thors seem lackluster. With simple low skill 'magic boxing', Thors don't even take down their cost worth in mutas (providing there's at least a handful of Mutas). Even with good hits, it requires more volleys than is reasonable to kill a pack. The plash on Thor's missiles is simply to small to really be viable save for those few times when the mutas clump up. In almost all other matchups, the missiles aren't useful at all.
In TvP, Thors have almost no role what so ever, being highly vulnerable to multiple Toss units, from Immortals to Tempests or simply a few zealots.
Not really sure how to fix them though... Thors need to probably have a smaller footprint, or have similar mechanics to Colossus in that at least marines, could fit under them. They are unwieldy and though their firepower isn't bad by any means, it's hard to access and apply completely.
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I've seen quite a few videos when a blitz of Seeker Missiles (when they actually activate) actually landing tends to turn sour when the targeted Mutas normally, run them straight into the raven clump. Sure it took out the mutas, but it takes out the ravens and everything under them too. Widow mines are so difficult to use for this reason too, as they can easily be dragged into MMM formations and cause plenty of damage themselves.
In reality, Terran seems to be the only race with this problem, and it's frankly... stupid.
No, this ins't stupid IMO. Actually, it's why terran is by far the best designed race in the game as it makes the game more skillbased, since Seeker Missiles/Widow Mines can be microed against. Let's try and balance the game around rewarding more micro for all races, rather than balancing the game around amoving.
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On July 08 2014 05:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
I've seen quite a few videos when a blitz of Seeker Missiles (when they actually activate) actually landing tends to turn sour when the targeted Mutas normally, run them straight into the raven clump. Sure it took out the mutas, but it takes out the ravens and everything under them too. Widow mines are so difficult to use for this reason too, as they can easily be dragged into MMM formations and cause plenty of damage themselves.
In reality, Terran seems to be the only race with this problem, and it's frankly... stupid.
No, this ins't stupid IMO. Actually, it's why terran is by far the best designed race in the game as it makes the game more skillbased, since Seeker Missiles/Widow Mines can be microed against. Let's try and balance the game around rewarding more micro for all races, rather than balancing the game around amoving.
The problem is seeker missiles and widow mines aren't really skill based units. Sure there's some involved in getting seekers to activate, target selection and placement of mines, but once you fire/trigger them, they are completely out of your hands. You can't micro manage widow mines save to burrow/unburrow them. Seeker Missiles will go regardless, and if it's straight on top of your Raven ball... well, sucks to be you I guess.
I just dislike having my own stuff used against me when the other races really don't have nearly the same restrictions. There's no need to worry about banelings self-detonating my own stuff or splash from fungals or Ultralisks. Protoss only have to worry about not running their death ball into psi-storms or getting caught in their own forcefields, and since they know exactly where they are going to place them it's seems fairly easy.
Since there's no real way to add these skill checks to the Zerg and Protoss, the only way to balance them is to remove or at least reduce them vs Terran.
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On July 08 2014 05:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
I've seen quite a few videos when a blitz of Seeker Missiles (when they actually activate) actually landing tends to turn sour when the targeted Mutas normally, run them straight into the raven clump. Sure it took out the mutas, but it takes out the ravens and everything under them too. Widow mines are so difficult to use for this reason too, as they can easily be dragged into MMM formations and cause plenty of damage themselves.
In reality, Terran seems to be the only race with this problem, and it's frankly... stupid.
No, this ins't stupid IMO. Actually, it's why terran is by far the best designed race in the game as it makes the game more skillbased, since Seeker Missiles/Widow Mines can be microed against. Let's try and balance the game around rewarding more micro for all races, rather than balancing the game around amoving.
That CLASSIC mistake every "only playing Terran" person does.. That "Bio"-target-fire type of play you "experience" as most rewarding, while in fact it isn't.. It is far too frustrating to deal with if Terran wins that one.. It's far too snowbally to make the whole game around that one..
That's why the Tier 2 and Tier 3 units from P and Z HAVE TO be so hard-countering to bio so they'd "block" that one..
Sorry, but your "let's balance around micro rather than a-move" - "on paper" sounds good, but is just the same sentence as "this is cool to watch".
As I said - it should be balanced about transitions and SCOUTING, not a "drop" somewhere have everything snowball.. Sure - let the pros snowball with moves only they can execute, but let us mere mortals rely on scouts and transitioning as well as unit positioning and/or army comps (and surprise - even without deathballing - it CAN be done)..
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NOW - let me "fix" that sentence for you now:
Actually, it's why terran is by far the worst designed race in the game as it makes the game more snowball, since Seeker Missiles/Widow Mines can be devastating in large numbers. Let's try and balance the game around scouting and transitioning and more "style" for all races, rather than balancing the game around drops.
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The problem is seeker missiles and widow mines aren't really skill based units. Sure there's some involved in getting seekers to activate, target selection and placement of mines, but once you fire/trigger them, they are completely out of your hands. You can't micro manage widow mines save to burrow/unburrow them
I say Widow Mines are a ton harder to use optimally than Thors/Hellbats which some times substitutes/complements them in the bio army. When that is said, it could always be better. Unburrow could actually be faster so unburrow/burrow micro was more practical. More practical focus firing is also something that I have advocated alot for.
Again not saying Seeker Missile is anywhere near perfect either, but my point is that friendly fire is a very important part of making the game more micro-based and we shouldn't take that away.
That CLASSIC mistake every "only playing Terran" person does.. That "Bio"-target-fire type of play you "experience" as most rewarding, while in fact it isn't.. It is far too frustrating to deal with if Terran wins that one.. It's far too snowbally to make the whole game around that one..
That's why the Tier 2 and Tier 3 units from P and Z HAVE TO be so hard-countering to bio so they'd "block" that one..
Sorry, but your "let's balance around micro rather than a-move" - "on paper" sounds good, but is just the same sentence as "this is cool to watch".
As I said - it should be balanced about transitions and SCOUTING, not a "drop" somewhere have everything snowball.. Sure - let the pros snowball with moves only they can execute, but let us mere mortals rely on scouts and transitioning as well as unit positioning and/or army comps (and surprise - even without deathballing - it CAN be done)..
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NOW - let me "fix" that sentence for you now:
Actually, it's why terran is by far the worse designed race in the game as it makes the game more snowball, since Seeker Missiles/Widow Mines can be devastating in large numbers. Let's try and balance the game around scouting and transitioning and more "style" for all races, rather than balancing the game around drops.
Terran matchups doens't snowball at all. Protoss matchups are by far the most snowbally matchup at all. Two important factors in the determination of the snowball effects are these;
- Is the defenders advantage mechanics strong enough
- Is micro a big factor in each battle so that critical mass doens't always win?
That's why TvZ isn't a snowbally matchup because there is a large defenders advantage through creep spread. No terran just wins by using one drops (at least not once you reach masters+). Instead, dropplay is the exact opposite of snowballgameplay as it makes the game more mutltaskbased/positonalbased and can slowly create larger advantages for the terran palyer or for the enemy player if he defends well.
Go watch all the most popular games in the TL thread. Notice that the games doen't invovlve transitions (typically), but instead has lots of multitasking and micro, that's simply what people wanna see. Transitions in it self isn't a good thing if the transition creates stale turtly gameplay.
It seems obvious to me that you are confusing snowballing games with fast-paced multitaskbased games and while you may not like those types of game, most people do.
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Lol sir, congrats, I think I found my exact opposite soulmate, lol..
Turtling doesn't happen cause of late-tech units being strong, turtling happens cause of big defender advantages - like PDD and Swarmhost, Tempest, and the likes.. Nerf those and no more Turtling happens, regardless of mobility on the map
(I guess this too is the exact opposite from your "perception", rofl), nevertheless - had quite a good debate this one..
Thanks 
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Turtling doesn't happen cause of tech changes, turtling happens cause of big defender advantages - like PDD and Swarmhost.. Nerf those and no more Turtling happens, regardless of mobility on the map
Sry I didn't make my self clear. Defenders advantage doesn't (neccsarily) create turtling. A defenders advantage can (if properly done) reduce the snowball effect. That's the way creep spread functions.
I agree with you comments on fixing PDD/Swarm Hosts as that could make mech a ton more strong.
My point is that making transitions ins't neccasrarily fun. For instance, a terran player scouts the protoss player adding in Collosus. Now he "transitions" into Vikings.... What exactly is fun about that specific act of scouting and then transitiong (and why does this actually have anything to do with snowball-effects or micro/not rewrading amove). Aren't you going totally offtopic here?
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On July 08 2014 05:58 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +The problem is seeker missiles and widow mines aren't really skill based units. Sure there's some involved in getting seekers to activate, target selection and placement of mines, but once you fire/trigger them, they are completely out of your hands. You can't micro manage widow mines save to burrow/unburrow them I say Widow Mines are a ton harder to use optimally than Thors/Hellbats which some times substitutes/complements them in the bio army. When that is said, it could always be better. Unburrow could actually be faster so unburrow/burrow micro was more practical. More practical focus firing is also something that I have advocated alot for. Again not saying Seeker Missile is anywhere near perfect either, but my point is that friendly fire is a very important part of making the game more micro-based and we shouldn't take that away. Show nested quote +That CLASSIC mistake every "only playing Terran" person does.. That "Bio"-target-fire type of play you "experience" as most rewarding, while in fact it isn't.. It is far too frustrating to deal with if Terran wins that one.. It's far too snowbally to make the whole game around that one..
That's why the Tier 2 and Tier 3 units from P and Z HAVE TO be so hard-countering to bio so they'd "block" that one..
Sorry, but your "let's balance around micro rather than a-move" - "on paper" sounds good, but is just the same sentence as "this is cool to watch".
As I said - it should be balanced about transitions and SCOUTING, not a "drop" somewhere have everything snowball.. Sure - let the pros snowball with moves only they can execute, but let us mere mortals rely on scouts and transitioning as well as unit positioning and/or army comps (and surprise - even without deathballing - it CAN be done)..
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NOW - let me "fix" that sentence for you now:
Actually, it's why terran is by far the worse designed race in the game as it makes the game more snowball, since Seeker Missiles/Widow Mines can be devastating in large numbers. Let's try and balance the game around scouting and transitioning and more "style" for all races, rather than balancing the game around drops. Terran matchups doens't snowball at all. Protoss matchups are by far the most snowbally matchup at all. Two important factors in the determination of the snowball effects are these; - Is the defenders advantage mechanics strong enough - Is micro a big factor in each battle so that critical mass doens't always win? That's why TvZ is a very anti snowball matchup because there is a large defenders advantage through creep spread. No terran just wins by using one drops (at least not once you reach masters+). Instead, dropplay is the exact opposite of snowballgameplay as it makes the game more mutltaskbased/positonalbased and can slowly create larger advantages for the terran palyer or for the enemy player if he defends well. Go watch all the most popular games in the TL thread. Notice that the games doen't invovlve transitions (typically), but instead has lots of multitasking and micro, that's simply what people wanna see. Transitions in it self isn't a good thing if the transition creates stale turtly gameplay. It seems obvious to me that you are confusing snowballing games with fast-paced multitaskbased games and while you may not like those types of game, most people do.
Hider I think you exaggerate both the impact and the difficulty of Terran micro. Not to say that they're not important. But the way you write about it makes it seem like simply "having twice as much stuff" doesn't matter. Obviously if you've ever watched Bomber play, that's not true. His entire style is predicated on making more stuff than his opponent and being very aggressive with his huge amounts of stuff. Granted, he does micro... but it's not the essence of Terran life that you make it seem like.
Also, I don't know what you're talking about but TvZ can DEFINITELY snowball. Tell me you haven't watched a marine Hellbat push in the last month that "won the game" without actually winning the game... When the first push does so much damage and one side gets behind economcially the game gets harder and harder to win as time passes (a snowball effect). The push forces lings and kills queens, which delays drones and larva...delayed drones and larva means fewer bases and less income, which means you don't have enough army to defend your 4th when the push comes, etc...
Currently I think the problem with TvZ is if both players play correctly and the game reaches late game, bio just has no way to deal with 60+ banelings. There isn't enough splash available to the Terran. Before the mine nerf, with good positioning and a good engagement you could still come out ahead. Now we see guys like Snute make more banelings than the Terran has marines and simply roll over them.
Think about how PvT would be if Storm all of a sudden was half the size or did 50% as much damage. Early on it might appear to be okay but in a max vs. max army situation, Protoss just wouldn't have enough splash to deal with all the bio.
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On July 08 2014 06:10 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Turtling doesn't happen cause of tech changes, turtling happens cause of big defender advantages - like PDD and Swarmhost.. Nerf those and no more Turtling happens, regardless of mobility on the map Sry I didn't make my self clear. Defenders advantage doesn't (neccsarily) create turtling. A defenders advantage can (if properly done) reduce the snowball effect. That's the way creep spread functions. I agree with you comments on fixing PDD/Swarm Hosts as that could make mech a ton more strong. My point is that making transitions ins't neccasrarily fun. For instance, a terran player scouts the protoss player adding in Collosus. Now he "transitions" into Vikings.... What exactly is fun about that specific act of scouting and then transitiong (and why does this actually have anything to do with snowball-effects or micro/not rewrading amove). Aren't you going totally offtopic here?
Hmmm.. Not quite sure.., A good "dynamic" can come from good "pendulum" - i.e. - "chain" of changes too..
I mean Corruptor > Phoenix > Mutalisk > Voidray > Corruptor..
Now - I KNOW that Phoenix (and Mutas somewhat) ARE one of the most micro-based units in the game, but that dynamic happens not just cause of micro, but also cause of the "circular chain" I wrote about.. ALSO - for the game not to be completely stalemate (as you described) there should be at least one (or 1 per race) good anti-eco harass unit in the chain I wrote about for the stalemate not to happen, but not necessarily it being the most easily produced unit of all (such as the Marine in the case of Terran)..
Here's an example of "chain not working well" - PvP for example (TvP sky vs sky usually never happens, so can't think of a Terran example ) - it's - Phoenix (cost-wise) > Voidray > Tempest > All but Voidray, so that's why everyone makes Tempests (more like all we see are Phoenixes, but that's just because Phoenix battles are so fragile that there's no time to get Tempests, otherwise these would be the "ones") and hopes to Storm the Voidrays, rather than "transition" in and out of different Air unit types depending on what the opponent has.. Archons however are the one REAL reason that causes this almost never happen (except Grubby vs HasuObs in WCS EU - on Whirlwind, or was it Frost)
Now - whether my "premise" is right or not - can be "proved" only if both Mutalisk and Phoenix become more "boring" units (in terms of not being mobility superior to the other 2 - Voidray and Corruptor - counterparts).. I guess you might be right, but I can't be wrong too, lol, cause it's been proven/working quite right..
Also - the one change I talked about for example - just because of Tempests >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Broodlord, we see the latter not at all, more like they're an extinct species, so - either Zerg needs a good anti-tempest unit to "restore the pendulum" back, OR - unbuff that ridiculous buff (that really noone knows why it's so damn +50 bonus damage high) to a more "moderate" place and we might see more BLords and BCs as well (might)
Micro is fun and good, but not essential to base upon the game-design.. Ofcourse - the truth must be somewhere in between somehow..
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On July 08 2014 06:46 VArsovskiSC wrote:
Micro is fun and good, but not essential to base upon the game-design..
This.
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Hider I think you exaggerate both the impact and the difficulty of Terran micro. Not to say that they're not important. But the way you write about it makes it seem like simply "having twice as much stuff" doesn't matter. Obviously if you've ever watched Bomber play, that's not true. His entire style is predicated on making more stuff than his opponent and being very aggressive with his huge amounts of stuff. Granted, he does micro... but it's not the essence of Terran life that you make it seem like.
No this isn't true at all actually. Bomber is a very timing-oriented guy who obvioulsy is known to macro really well untill he attacks, but most importantly, controls the units incredibly well during his timings. Very few terrans can actually match that level of control. Do you play terran yourself btw? Because I don't think your in a position to talk about the mechaically requirement of playing terran if you don't play it at all/play it at a very low level.
Also, I don't know what you're talking about but TvZ can DEFINITELY snowball. Tell me you haven't watched a marine Hellbat push in the last month that "won the game" without actually winning the game... When the first push does so much damage and one side gets behind economcially the game gets harder and harder to win as time passes (a snowball effect). The push forces lings and kills queens, which delays drones and larva...delayed drones and larva means fewer bases and less income, which means you don't have enough army to defend your 4th when the push comes, etc...
Don't disagree here and that was kinda why I in the first place argued against the Hellbat buff. Check out what I actually wrote before the Hellbat buff was implemented;
My argument against buffing terran early game is how easily it could result in snowball gameplay. If you buff terran by 10% in the early game, it's not just gonna make zerg midgame weaker by 10%. Rather, it's gonna nerf zerg by something much larger than that.
Now look at how early game TvZ works. Both races can be aggressive and its very microintensive. Overall, it has a really fun dynamic which rewards skills for both players. Previously in HOTS Blizzard changed a dynamic that worked pretty well: That was when they nerfed the Widow Mine in TvZ, which hurt terran a lot in the midgame.
Simply put, when Blizzard is looking for simple/easy to fix small changes, they should be very very careful about changing the phases of the game that works well and where both races overall are pretty satifised. So touching something that impacts TvZ early game is IMO a big error.
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/449468-balance-status-update-4-29-14?page=20#397
Instead, my comment about snowballing is more related to the midgame. Both terran and zerg can lose battles without the game ending as it is difficult for terran to step into creep and end the game and zerg cannot really push into a 3base terran player offcreep with just a small/modest supply lead (but this defenders advantage would be even better with stronger Mines).
Currently I think the problem with TvZ is if both players play correctly and the game reaches late game, bio just has no way to deal with 60+ banelings. There isn't enough splash available to the Terran. Before the mine nerf, with good positioning and a good engagement you could still come out ahead. Now we see guys like Snute make more banelings than the Terran has marines and simply roll over them.
Think about how PvT would be if Storm all of a sudden was half the size or did 50% as much damage. Early on it might appear to be okay but in a max vs. max army situation, Protoss just wouldn't have enough splash to deal with all the bio.
The point that your missing here is that there are multiple ways to balance the game. Due to how the mule impacts TvP balance, terran has more stuff than the protoss player in midgame. And due how the warptech works, protoss warptech units are quite weak, thus it's absolutely a neccesity that protoss AOE is quite strong. It could ofc be balanced. E.g. the mule could be nerfed and then the game could be balanced around weaker AOE abilities for protoss. That would make toss stronger in midgame but weaker in late game.
The same concept applies to TvZ. Should the game be balanced around zerg being very cost-ineffective late game, but more army value and a bigger bank than the 4M player? Or should the game be balanced around terran being less cost-effective but having a bigger bank than the zerg player going into the late game?
The whole debate about "fundamental problem" misses the point here, because there are multiple types of solutions. But not all solutions creates interesting gameplay.
In my opinion, it would be nice if terran had two options: Mech and bio play, but bio-play simply becomes a ton more interesting when it's stronger in the midgame as it creates a much more fast-paced game. If bio is weaker in the midgame, then it's simply gonna play much more defensively. That's actually what you saw at the end of WOL where terran "bio" vs zerg was forced to turtle untill it's 2/2 timing, which created super boring games.
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