EPTBalance Status Update 4/29/14 - Page 20
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
SoBoTeK
Poland2 Posts
| ||
|
gosublade
632 Posts
| ||
|
Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On May 01 2014 02:13 gosublade wrote: I think it would be good if hellions could turn into hellbats MID MOVEMENT. When transformation starts, they start moving at the speed of a hellbat That would be very neat | ||
|
falconfan02
United States231 Posts
On April 30 2014 09:30 frozzz wrote: both options are really good but honestly i think that protoss upgrades should be reverted to its original cost and not lowering terran ones I completely agree. I feel like terran upgrades are only really a problem in tvp, and I can see why zergs would have a negative reaction to the buff. Reverting the price for protoss helps the upgrade situation in tvp without hurting tvz. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
| ||
|
SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On May 01 2014 00:43 SC2Toastie wrote: I honestly can't take you serious this way. First you put words into my mouth, and you're going after me on the words you've made up yourself? Good job buddy! I agree Terran has the less prevalent early game aggression. So what? There's always going to be one race with less, except if you carefully calculate they all exactly have X amount of different all ins at every stage of the game. It's one of the things that comes with a game with multiple races - They aren't the same. I am up with the state of SC2, Terran can do some fun aggression vs Protoss via gas first, Terran can skip the third CC for some nasty pushes, Hellion banshee can do the same, even reapers can do so. Terran has a good couple of effective cheeses. You've got less aggressive options, but you have plenty of means to scout and defend other races' aggression in this map pool. I don't even know why I am putting in the effort to argue with you, it's useless. So... Deal with it. You say, "I agree Terran has the less prevalent early game aggression. So what?" Here is "so what": There are 4 Terran's in the Code S Ro32. So what the race is gradually disappearing at high levels and in the tournament scene. So what late game T1 units are trash versus Protoss deathball if you don't have 300 APM. So what that it takes little skill to execute a 2-base all-in that, if not scouted, outtright kills the Terran (2-base roach, 2-base blink, roach bane all-in). Not to mention the one base proxy oracle; proxy dt; proxy vray; immortal proxy; even the oracle into tempest proxy...that's a new one...or maybe they just feign aggression, let the Terran d-up, and go into double forge/templar. I'm sure i missed a ton more but these all-in's pretty much end the game for Terran if they do not "guess" correctly and are EXTREMELY easy to execute. You mention aggression versus Protoss going gas first; however, you are not comparing apples-to-apples. Going gas first into WM or helion does not outright win the game unless you have a super greedy Protoss going Nexus first. Also the risk/reward is comletely different: Terran significantly sacrafices his/her economy to do this early aggression, but with Protoss, a failed Blink all-in does not hurt their economy - they just sit there and defend with Nexus cannon while maintaining map control with Stalkers (while Terran has to pull SCVS and usually make at least 4 bunkers to defend). I think your criticism fails to see that Terran is notorious for having a weak late game; therefore, they need to inflict some level of damage early on to slow Protoss tech and Zerg economy from bursting out of control. Now that this is taken away from them, it is difficult to be on even footing with the other two races. I also see the new map pool as being an issue (esp with Zerg and the time it takes to execute any 2 base drops and aggression) with the larger 3 player + maps. | ||
|
ionONE
Germany605 Posts
I would much rather see Blizzard trying to rework stuff, providing us a playground to test stuff. (feedback for upcoming possible changes MstrJinbo) - Changing Warp in for example, to a later tech with disadvantage! when i take 1 bad fight, there is no comeback possible if 10 zealots get warp in instantly (2 base all ins are still possible but less luck) - Highground advantage, yes even dota2 has 25% miss chance ... (smaller army can hold a position etc) - swarm host: make it more interesting or remove the unit, try the impaler etc so much stuff can be done by giving us a testmap~ we have to play/watch this game ... dont get me started about bnet 0.2 ^_^ ---- im wasting my time because i care about the game | ||
|
MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On May 01 2014 02:23 ionONE wrote: At the moment i dont think a balance change is necessary~ I would much rather see Blizzard trying to rework stuff, providing us a playground to test stuff. - Changing Warp in for example, to a later tech with disadvantage! when i take 1 bad fight, there is no comeback possible if 10 zealots get warp in instantly (2 base all ins are still possible but less luck) - Highground advantage, yes even dota2 has 25% miss chance ... (smaller army can hold a position etc) - swarm host: make it more interesting or remove the unit, try the impaler etc so much stuff can be done by giving us a testmap~ Bliz has already stated this type of change would only be considered for an expansion and is more or less a nonstarter for a balance patch change. Not sure why people keep wasting their time suggesting it every balance patch discussion. | ||
|
sparklyresidue
United States5523 Posts
On May 01 2014 01:34 Faust852 wrote: You say they have a stronger production in the midgame, and I think this is caused by the fact that they can drone that easily in the early stage of the game. Sure you can win with 6 hellions, a bunch of marines and a couple of medivac, but only if the zergs is greedy as fuck. Remember Inno vs Life g3 of DH ? Life had already his 4th finished when Inno wanted to put pressure, and mutalisk, that was a 11'30". It means that already this early, the Zerg can have a full saturated 3rd, a 4th finishing, and muta incoming. Imo, forcing the Zerg to produce a bigger army at 10' will help terran to deal with early mutalisk and being more agressive as we used to be before the mine nerf. In that particular game, though, wasn't Life able to hold his 4th so easily because his drone count wasn't that high (~65, just a few higher than Innovation) and he made a lot of preemtive banes and stuff? Not saying I totally disagree, but that game wasn't how, say, DRG might've played it out (more drones smaller army). | ||
|
royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On May 01 2014 02:13 gosublade wrote: I think it would be good if hellions could turn into hellbats MID MOVEMENT. When transformation starts, they start moving at the speed of a hellbat I've always wanted that with vikings too. | ||
|
FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
| ||
|
matthy
66 Posts
On May 01 2014 02:46 royalroadweed wrote: I've always wanted that with vikings too. that would be awesome | ||
|
Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On May 01 2014 02:51 FreeZEternal wrote: wait... Mutas had a buff in HOTS? HOLY CRAP!!!! No wonder they were not dying UGH!!! Haven't played since HOTS release and I was wondering how the Mutas kept coming and coming after storming them lol... 4x regen and huge speedbuff is kinda cool yeah. | ||
|
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On May 01 2014 02:51 FreeZEternal wrote: wait... Mutas had a buff in HOTS? HOLY CRAP!!!! No wonder they were not dying UGH!!! Haven't played since HOTS release and I was wondering how the Mutas kept coming and coming after storming them lol... LMAO. Yeah they regenerate stupid fast. You need Phoenixes to fight them. | ||
|
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
The upgrade cost reduction, I am not for. | ||
|
DomeGetta
480 Posts
Neither of these things are going to balance the game - I love how so many people vote for the helion HB transform - It actually makes me lol - it's definitely all zerg players lolling at it saying please yes please another useless mech buff! As if now meching will be more viable because you don't have to get the transform upgrade? Seriously, that's the problem with mech? Even the upgrade cost is inconsequential nonsense - it takes about 10 in game seconds to mine that much.. Tvz: lets see - pre mine nerf but post hellbat nerf and overseer buff it was statistically balanced ( as acknowledged by Blizzard) - You were urged not to patch the game while it was statistically balanced (by people other than zergs that didn't want to learn how to micro) but you did anyway to fix a "stale metagame" and now you got what so many people said you would and what you asked another imbalanced match-up. Think about it logically - you took away the only viable composition that has demonstrated capability to win games at the highest level of play through reducing the damage output of a core unit of it by 50%. What did you think was going to happen? Now your answer to fix it is to change 2 totally unrelated things? How does transformation servos help even bio/hellbat? This one is so easy its ridiculous - you already have the solution you just broke it - man up and admit your mistake. Tvp - yess please transform servos the answer we've been waiting for. Nothing on strengthening Terrans' early game defense or weakening / limiting Protoss' early game options? It's obvious that the warp gate mechanic and the adv it provides late game isn't going to be fixed but you could at least take away the ridiculous adv that the race has in early game by forcing T to prepare for a multitude of cheese and allowing P to choose whether to exploit those or to fake them and greed out. There are COUNTLESS pro level games that highlight this. Why is this necessary for the game? Why refuse to address these things and in place of them throw out totally unrelated "buffs" (tanks/servos/bio up cost??) If you aren't going to fix them at least man up and respond to your position on them specifically and why you think they are actually beneficial to the game at present. | ||
|
Hider
Denmark9403 Posts
On May 01 2014 01:34 Faust852 wrote: You say they have a stronger production in the midgame, and I think this is caused by the fact that they can drone that easily in the early stage of the game. Sure you can win with 6 hellions, a bunch of marines and a couple of medivac, but only if the zergs is greedy as !@#$%^&*. Remember Inno vs Life g3 of DH ? Life had already his 4th finished when Inno wanted to put pressure, and mutalisk, that was a 11'30". It means that already this early, the Zerg can have a full saturated 3rd, a 4th finishing, and muta incoming. Imo, forcing the Zerg to produce a bigger army at 10' will help terran to deal with early mutalisk and being more agressive as we used to be before the mine nerf. The way zerg macromechanics work they always have stronger midgame production. Thas has always been the case at any time in the life of Sc2 and in any matchup. The argument I used to argue against buffing terran early game is how easily it actually snowballs. If you buff terran by 10% in the early game, it's not just gonna make zerg midgame weaker by 10%. Rather, it's gonna nerf zerg by something much larger than that. Now look at how early game TvZ works. Both races can be aggressive and its very microintensive. Overall, it has a really fun dynamic which rewards skills for both players. Previously in HOTS Blizzard changed a dynamic that worked pretty well: That was when they nerfed the Widow Mine in TvZ, which hurt terran a lot in the midgame. Previously terran wasn't dominanting in the mid-or lategame. Rather, it was a close and microintensive battle. Simply put, when Blizzard is looking for simple/easy to fix small changes, they should be very very careful about changing the phases of the game that works well and where both races overall are pretty satifised. So touching something that impacts TvZ early game is IMO a big error. FYI, In Inno vs life g3, Innovation went for double ebay before 2nd and 3rd rax, which obv means that Life can take a 4th on a map like Frosts very early. | ||
|
gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
No more computer animated sc2 trailers for you! | ||
|
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 01 2014 03:16 Hider wrote: In Inno vs life g3, Innovation went for double ebay before 2nd and 3rd rax, which obv means that Life can take a 4th on a map like Frosts very early. Zerg can take a quick fourth if Terran goes for triple OC regardless of +2 rax or +2 EBs first. | ||
|
Hider
Denmark9403 Posts
On May 01 2014 03:18 TheDwf wrote: Zerg can take a quick fourth if Terran goes for triple OC regardless of +2 rax or +2 EBs first. Well the context here is that Life easily reflected aggression from Innovation while having high worker count. Doing that is a lot harder vs non double ebay builds since the 2 Medivac timing attack comes later. The way zerg works they can always take bases fast as long as they just sascrifice worker count, however there is always a tradeoff. Taking a quick 4th against nongreedy teran builds isn't really benefical in most situations. | ||
| ||
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9sWlBGg.png)
