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On May 01 2014 00:37 mythandier wrote:
I still don't understand why the cost of Armories isn't reduced to either 100/100 or back to its BW cost. Option #2 is a good step but one of the primary prohibitive factors for a Hellbat/mech related timing is the cost of Armory + Factory(ies) + Upgrades. Since Terran has to build multiple production facilities and/or add-ons + armory + upgrades there's really a bottleneck in the early/early-midgame of resources.
Typical current Terran openings involve 4-8 hellions and double evo continuous upgrades. Providing they keep those initial hellions alive it literally costs them nothing to add hellbats to their army.
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On May 01 2014 00:36 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:03 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 23:57 avilo wrote:On April 30 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:50 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:39 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:35 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:21 SC2Toastie wrote:
[quote]
Ok, good to know!
Sadly, it happens to a lot more tournaments that all Terrans go out, than all Protoss going out. Well, since you initially spoke about GSL, I'm pretty sure that the GSL numbers are where they are because the previous map-pools have been quite heavily Blink favoured. The maps were designed before two-base Blink all-ins became a thing and that showed. It's going to take a while for that to equalise now that the maps aren't disastrously bad for Terran vs. Blink all-ins. Aside from Blink, I don't see (and have not seen) any convincing arguments that point to something specifically imbalanced about Protoss or Zerg... not that I would claim to understand TvZ enough to judge! How much more convincing do you want, with both winrates being near 45% WHILST the representation is bordering 15%-20%...? Aligulac is down for me right now, but I know that the last time I looked the winrates were not at 45%. If you're cherry-picking data from GSL only then I'm not interested in discussing that  Representation (I assume you mean GSL numbers) will take seasons to sort out, and the seasons are hardly short. It took a while for GomTvT to sort itself out even after Terran became balanced. Remember? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9sWlBGg.png) Here you are. Also, with only 8 players in Code S and Code A being openly accesible, it should sort out kinda fast. This season, it stayed the same. Like I said before, I wouldn't claim to understand TvZ enough to judge what impact these changes would have on that match-up. I don't get the impression that upgrades are a big problem for Terran though, so I don't think that will make much difference. Hellbats are something I'd like to see more of personally, but I don't know anything about how good MMMHellbat is compared to 4M. Well, it isn't good. The only thing it could do is make for an easier mech transition, and it might open up a very powerful attack with the 6/8 hellions you make early game. With the 1/1 push, instead of 6/8 hellions there can be 6/8 hellbats, which are a lot more powerful in a straight up fight. The upgrade buff is rubbish, unnecessary and covers nothing. You know what though? It's actually good if there are possibilities for Terrans to win games early on... In the current state of the game Terran has very few "all-ins" and ways to win early on versus Zerg and Protoss. While Protoss have the opposite issue - too many all-ins and ways to win early. Zerg has some nice all-ins with roaches and ling banes...so if hellbat transformation upgrade removal adds in another attack or two possible for Terran...that is actually really good and WILL help the balance of the game out more to not be so 1 sided in terms of aggressive options. Most of Terran's aggressive options were repeatedly nerfed to the point most games involving T are 100% macro games nowadays. It's not good if that possibility to outright win the game comes with a 3cc opener, though. I'm sure you and your followers 'd like that, but I play the other races as well. Don't underestimate the effect this might have - just like the queen patch increased the speed Zerg got lategame, this might substantially delay that. No i think everyone that plays/watches SC2 would like it that the game is more fair and it's not only P/Z that have early game aggressive or all-in options. I said it ages ago that if they are going to leave it so P/Z have more all-ins than Terran or ways to win the game early then they either have to: a) reduce the all-ins from the other races b) give Terran equally aggressive/all-in options Right now in the current game, everyone knows PvT and PvZ...there are a ton of Protoss all-ins which is why the design of Protoss gets a ton of flak for good reason. They should reduce the number of those and then TvP will be more balanced early game, or give Terran more early game aggro options vs Protoss by nerfing the nexus cannon. It's a bit ridiculous you think only Z/P should be allowed to win games early. Maybe you are not up with the state of SC2, but it's usually Terran as the one defending all-ins and Z/P choose whether to do them or to play straight up macro. There currently are no such options for Terran. Terran right now 100% has to play "straight up macro" for the majority of games.
I honestly can't take you serious this way. First you put words into my mouth, and you're going after me on the words you've made up yourself? Good job buddy!
I agree Terran has the less prevalent early game aggression. So what? There's always going to be one race with less, except if you carefully calculate they all exactly have X amount of different all ins at every stage of the game. It's one of the things that comes with a game with multiple races - They aren't the same.
I am up with the state of SC2, Terran can do some fun aggression vs Protoss via gas first, Terran can skip the third CC for some nasty pushes, Hellion banshee can do the same, even reapers can do so. Terran has a good couple of effective cheeses.
You've got less aggressive options, but you have plenty of means to scout and defend other races' aggression in this map pool.
I don't even know why I am putting in the effort to argue with you, it's useless.
So... Deal with it.
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On May 01 2014 00:42 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:37 mythandier wrote:
I still don't understand why the cost of Armories isn't reduced to either 100/100 or back to its BW cost. Option #2 is a good step but one of the primary prohibitive factors for a Hellbat/mech related timing is the cost of Armory + Factory(ies) + Upgrades. Since Terran has to build multiple production facilities and/or add-ons + armory + upgrades there's really a bottleneck in the early/early-midgame of resources. Typical current Terran openings involve 4-8 hellions and double evo continuous upgrades. Providing they keep those initial hellions alive it literally costs them nothing to add hellbats to their army.
Indeed. Apparantly, I am the only one fearing the 8 hellbat 16 marine 2 medivac 1/1 stim timing just before spire and probably bane speed, but well, who am I...
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TLADT24920 Posts
Small changes, not bad at all imo. Upgrades changes are pretty small and shouldn't affect TvZ that much. Hellbat transformation removal so that it's enabled by the armory is also a good idea since I seldom see it used.
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On May 01 2014 00:36 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:03 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 23:57 avilo wrote:On April 30 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:50 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:39 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:35 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:21 SC2Toastie wrote:
[quote]
Ok, good to know!
Sadly, it happens to a lot more tournaments that all Terrans go out, than all Protoss going out. Well, since you initially spoke about GSL, I'm pretty sure that the GSL numbers are where they are because the previous map-pools have been quite heavily Blink favoured. The maps were designed before two-base Blink all-ins became a thing and that showed. It's going to take a while for that to equalise now that the maps aren't disastrously bad for Terran vs. Blink all-ins. Aside from Blink, I don't see (and have not seen) any convincing arguments that point to something specifically imbalanced about Protoss or Zerg... not that I would claim to understand TvZ enough to judge! How much more convincing do you want, with both winrates being near 45% WHILST the representation is bordering 15%-20%...? Aligulac is down for me right now, but I know that the last time I looked the winrates were not at 45%. If you're cherry-picking data from GSL only then I'm not interested in discussing that Representation (I assume you mean GSL numbers) will take seasons to sort out, and the seasons are hardly short. It took a while for GomTvT to sort itself out even after Terran became balanced. Remember? Here you are. Also, with only 8 players in Code S and Code A being openly accesible, it should sort out kinda fast. This season, it stayed the same. Like I said before, I wouldn't claim to understand TvZ enough to judge what impact these changes would have on that match-up. I don't get the impression that upgrades are a big problem for Terran though, so I don't think that will make much difference. Hellbats are something I'd like to see more of personally, but I don't know anything about how good MMMHellbat is compared to 4M. Well, it isn't good. The only thing it could do is make for an easier mech transition, and it might open up a very powerful attack with the 6/8 hellions you make early game. With the 1/1 push, instead of 6/8 hellions there can be 6/8 hellbats, which are a lot more powerful in a straight up fight. The upgrade buff is rubbish, unnecessary and covers nothing. You know what though? It's actually good if there are possibilities for Terrans to win games early on... In the current state of the game Terran has very few "all-ins" and ways to win early on versus Zerg and Protoss. While Protoss have the opposite issue - too many all-ins and ways to win early. Zerg has some nice all-ins with roaches and ling banes...so if hellbat transformation upgrade removal adds in another attack or two possible for Terran...that is actually really good and WILL help the balance of the game out more to not be so 1 sided in terms of aggressive options. Most of Terran's aggressive options were repeatedly nerfed to the point most games involving T are 100% macro games nowadays. It's not good if that possibility to outright win the game comes with a 3cc opener, though. I'm sure you and your followers 'd like that, but I play the other races as well. Don't underestimate the effect this might have - just like the queen patch increased the speed Zerg got lategame, this might substantially delay that. No i think everyone that plays/watches SC2 would like it that the game is more fair and it's not only P/Z that have early game aggressive or all-in options. I said it ages ago that if they are going to leave it so P/Z have more all-ins than Terran or ways to win the game early then they either have to: a) reduce the all-ins from the other races b) give Terran equally aggressive/all-in options Right now in the current game, everyone knows PvT and PvZ...there are a ton of Protoss all-ins which is why the design of Protoss gets a ton of flak for good reason. They should reduce the number of those and then TvP will be more balanced early game, or give Terran more early game aggro options vs Protoss by nerfing the nexus cannon. It's a bit ridiculous you think only Z/P should be allowed to win games early. Maybe you are not up with the state of SC2, but it's usually Terran as the one defending all-ins and Z/P choose whether to do them or to play straight up macro. There currently are no such options for Terran. Terran right now 100% has to play "straight up macro" for the majority of games.
11/11 proxy 2 rax is very common and strong in TvZ. There are other Terran all ins/cheeses that are quite strong like MKP's float CC to gold 4 rax on Habitation Station. Maru has been developing 4M in TvP since the last patch. The style is still new and needs more development. Day[9] did a Daily on it.
It's okay for the races to have different strengths and weaknesses. Generally, Terran is the strongest race in the mid-game and in the Super Late Game. There was some Terran -- I can't remember his name -- who innovated a mass Raven with mass CC/planetary super late game style that is pretty amazing.
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On May 01 2014 00:44 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:42 MstrJinbo wrote:On May 01 2014 00:37 mythandier wrote:
I still don't understand why the cost of Armories isn't reduced to either 100/100 or back to its BW cost. Option #2 is a good step but one of the primary prohibitive factors for a Hellbat/mech related timing is the cost of Armory + Factory(ies) + Upgrades. Since Terran has to build multiple production facilities and/or add-ons + armory + upgrades there's really a bottleneck in the early/early-midgame of resources. Typical current Terran openings involve 4-8 hellions and double evo continuous upgrades. Providing they keep those initial hellions alive it literally costs them nothing to add hellbats to their army. Indeed. Apparantly, I am the only one fearing the 8 hellbat 16 marine 2 medivac 1/1 stim timing just before spire and probably bane speed, but well, who am I...
You're not, I wrote something similar some pages ago (here). I don't understand why people vote against the first proposal (a fairly insignificant one), while they vote in favor of the second which may spiral out of control in TvZ and mech vs bio.
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On May 01 2014 00:44 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:42 MstrJinbo wrote:On May 01 2014 00:37 mythandier wrote:
I still don't understand why the cost of Armories isn't reduced to either 100/100 or back to its BW cost. Option #2 is a good step but one of the primary prohibitive factors for a Hellbat/mech related timing is the cost of Armory + Factory(ies) + Upgrades. Since Terran has to build multiple production facilities and/or add-ons + armory + upgrades there's really a bottleneck in the early/early-midgame of resources. Typical current Terran openings involve 4-8 hellions and double evo continuous upgrades. Providing they keep those initial hellions alive it literally costs them nothing to add hellbats to their army. Indeed. Apparantly, I am the only one fearing the 8 hellbat 16 marine 2 medivac 1/1 stim timing just before spire and probably bane speed, but well, who am I...
Forcing the zerg being not so greedy and droning like crazy with a 4rd at 9' might be beneficial for the terran, whatcha think ?
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On May 01 2014 00:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:44 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 01 2014 00:42 MstrJinbo wrote:On May 01 2014 00:37 mythandier wrote:
I still don't understand why the cost of Armories isn't reduced to either 100/100 or back to its BW cost. Option #2 is a good step but one of the primary prohibitive factors for a Hellbat/mech related timing is the cost of Armory + Factory(ies) + Upgrades. Since Terran has to build multiple production facilities and/or add-ons + armory + upgrades there's really a bottleneck in the early/early-midgame of resources. Typical current Terran openings involve 4-8 hellions and double evo continuous upgrades. Providing they keep those initial hellions alive it literally costs them nothing to add hellbats to their army. Indeed. Apparantly, I am the only one fearing the 8 hellbat 16 marine 2 medivac 1/1 stim timing just before spire and probably bane speed, but well, who am I... You're not, I wrote something similar some pages ago ( here). I don't understand why people vote against the first proposa (a fairly insignificant one), while they vote in favor of the second which may spiral out of control in TvZ and mech vs bio.
Oh I missed that, sorry!On May 01 2014 00:49 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:44 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 01 2014 00:42 MstrJinbo wrote:On May 01 2014 00:37 mythandier wrote:
I still don't understand why the cost of Armories isn't reduced to either 100/100 or back to its BW cost. Option #2 is a good step but one of the primary prohibitive factors for a Hellbat/mech related timing is the cost of Armory + Factory(ies) + Upgrades. Since Terran has to build multiple production facilities and/or add-ons + armory + upgrades there's really a bottleneck in the early/early-midgame of resources. Typical current Terran openings involve 4-8 hellions and double evo continuous upgrades. Providing they keep those initial hellions alive it literally costs them nothing to add hellbats to their army. Indeed. Apparantly, I am the only one fearing the 8 hellbat 16 marine 2 medivac 1/1 stim timing just before spire and probably bane speed, but well, who am I... Forcing the zerg being not so greedy and droning like crazy with a 4rd at 9' might be beneficial for the terran, whatcha think ? What exactly are you saying? Is it good that the push might be really strong or is it a bad case? This comes down as a sarcastic remark without any practical use...
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"The main thought behind this option is to allow Terran to pressure both Protoss and Zerg a bit more" - is this a joke?
The hellbat thing sounds okay ,but that unit had so many problems throughout the expansion, blizzard always changed something 'cause it's poorly designed and can never be balanced properly.
PS: They should take a look at the Swarm Host, not hellbats.
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On May 01 2014 00:51 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:48 TheDwf wrote:On May 01 2014 00:44 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 01 2014 00:42 MstrJinbo wrote:On May 01 2014 00:37 mythandier wrote:
I still don't understand why the cost of Armories isn't reduced to either 100/100 or back to its BW cost. Option #2 is a good step but one of the primary prohibitive factors for a Hellbat/mech related timing is the cost of Armory + Factory(ies) + Upgrades. Since Terran has to build multiple production facilities and/or add-ons + armory + upgrades there's really a bottleneck in the early/early-midgame of resources. Typical current Terran openings involve 4-8 hellions and double evo continuous upgrades. Providing they keep those initial hellions alive it literally costs them nothing to add hellbats to their army. Indeed. Apparantly, I am the only one fearing the 8 hellbat 16 marine 2 medivac 1/1 stim timing just before spire and probably bane speed, but well, who am I... You're not, I wrote something similar some pages ago ( here). I don't understand why people vote against the first proposa (a fairly insignificant one), while they vote in favor of the second which may spiral out of control in TvZ and mech vs bio. Oh I missed that, sorry! Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:49 Faust852 wrote:On May 01 2014 00:44 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 01 2014 00:42 MstrJinbo wrote:On May 01 2014 00:37 mythandier wrote:
I still don't understand why the cost of Armories isn't reduced to either 100/100 or back to its BW cost. Option #2 is a good step but one of the primary prohibitive factors for a Hellbat/mech related timing is the cost of Armory + Factory(ies) + Upgrades. Since Terran has to build multiple production facilities and/or add-ons + armory + upgrades there's really a bottleneck in the early/early-midgame of resources. Typical current Terran openings involve 4-8 hellions and double evo continuous upgrades. Providing they keep those initial hellions alive it literally costs them nothing to add hellbats to their army. Indeed. Apparantly, I am the only one fearing the 8 hellbat 16 marine 2 medivac 1/1 stim timing just before spire and probably bane speed, but well, who am I... Forcing the zerg being not so greedy and droning like crazy with a 4rd at 9' might be beneficial for the terran, whatcha think ? What exactly are you saying? Is it good that the push might be really strong or is it a bad case? This comes down as a sarcastic remark without any practical use...
Sorry if you read that as sarcasm, it wasn't at all.
I think it might be, or not be a good thing. Imo, the zerg is too strong in the midgame, which force the T to be reallly passive in the midgame or else being overrun once mutas are out. The 11min push with marine medivacs hellion kindof force the zerg to produce some army supply, but I think this is not enough because at this timing the Z has already a full saturated 3rd and is at around 70 drones. Meaning the terran is behind once the muta are out. A strong push with Hellbat will force much more baneling, hence fewer mutas and drones to be able to repel the agression. That's what we need imho, a stronger midgame against Z so you can even things out in the late game.
Thus said, this might be too much, I don't know, I need to try it
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I think reverting the widow mine change would be good. Its the massive amounts of zerglings that is the problem on top of banelings. Widow mines need to be able to take out more zerglings to make zergs more cautious.
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3/3 upgrade change seems random and ineffective.
Transformation Servos removal would be so cool! Go for some crazy mass-hellions to force roaches into hellbat all in. Calling it.
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On May 01 2014 00:32 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:28 MagnuMizer wrote:
make orbital command center unable to lift off....................... The orbital being able to lift off is probably the only thing that allows terrans to recover from Zerg 2 base allin or semi allins. I don't think you really thought that suggestion through.
Not to mention it's probably the only way to have a chance of end up ahead against Blink stalker builds.
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On May 01 2014 00:48 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:36 avilo wrote:On May 01 2014 00:03 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 23:57 avilo wrote:On April 30 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:50 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:39 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:35 SatedSC2 wrote:
[quote]
Well, since you initially spoke about GSL, I'm pretty sure that the GSL numbers are where they are because the previous map-pools have been quite heavily Blink favoured. The maps were designed before two-base Blink all-ins became a thing and that showed. It's going to take a while for that to equalise now that the maps aren't disastrously bad for Terran vs. Blink all-ins. Aside from Blink, I don't see (and have not seen) any convincing arguments that point to something specifically imbalanced about Protoss or Zerg... not that I would claim to understand TvZ enough to judge! How much more convincing do you want, with both winrates being near 45% WHILST the representation is bordering 15%-20%...? Aligulac is down for me right now, but I know that the last time I looked the winrates were not at 45%. If you're cherry-picking data from GSL only then I'm not interested in discussing that Representation (I assume you mean GSL numbers) will take seasons to sort out, and the seasons are hardly short. It took a while for GomTvT to sort itself out even after Terran became balanced. Remember? Here you are. Also, with only 8 players in Code S and Code A being openly accesible, it should sort out kinda fast. This season, it stayed the same. Like I said before, I wouldn't claim to understand TvZ enough to judge what impact these changes would have on that match-up. I don't get the impression that upgrades are a big problem for Terran though, so I don't think that will make much difference. Hellbats are something I'd like to see more of personally, but I don't know anything about how good MMMHellbat is compared to 4M. Well, it isn't good. The only thing it could do is make for an easier mech transition, and it might open up a very powerful attack with the 6/8 hellions you make early game. With the 1/1 push, instead of 6/8 hellions there can be 6/8 hellbats, which are a lot more powerful in a straight up fight. The upgrade buff is rubbish, unnecessary and covers nothing. You know what though? It's actually good if there are possibilities for Terrans to win games early on... In the current state of the game Terran has very few "all-ins" and ways to win early on versus Zerg and Protoss. While Protoss have the opposite issue - too many all-ins and ways to win early. Zerg has some nice all-ins with roaches and ling banes...so if hellbat transformation upgrade removal adds in another attack or two possible for Terran...that is actually really good and WILL help the balance of the game out more to not be so 1 sided in terms of aggressive options. Most of Terran's aggressive options were repeatedly nerfed to the point most games involving T are 100% macro games nowadays. It's not good if that possibility to outright win the game comes with a 3cc opener, though. I'm sure you and your followers 'd like that, but I play the other races as well. Don't underestimate the effect this might have - just like the queen patch increased the speed Zerg got lategame, this might substantially delay that. No i think everyone that plays/watches SC2 would like it that the game is more fair and it's not only P/Z that have early game aggressive or all-in options. I said it ages ago that if they are going to leave it so P/Z have more all-ins than Terran or ways to win the game early then they either have to: a) reduce the all-ins from the other races b) give Terran equally aggressive/all-in options Right now in the current game, everyone knows PvT and PvZ...there are a ton of Protoss all-ins which is why the design of Protoss gets a ton of flak for good reason. They should reduce the number of those and then TvP will be more balanced early game, or give Terran more early game aggro options vs Protoss by nerfing the nexus cannon. It's a bit ridiculous you think only Z/P should be allowed to win games early. Maybe you are not up with the state of SC2, but it's usually Terran as the one defending all-ins and Z/P choose whether to do them or to play straight up macro. There currently are no such options for Terran. Terran right now 100% has to play "straight up macro" for the majority of games. 11/11 proxy 2 rax is very common and strong in TvZ. There are other Terran all ins/cheeses that are quite strong like MKP's float CC to gold 4 rax on Habitation Station. Maru has been developing 4M in TvP since the last patch. The style is still new and needs more development. Day[9] did a Daily on it. It's okay for the races to have different strengths and weaknesses. Generally, Terran is the strongest race in the mid-game and in the Super Late Game. There was some Terran -- I can't remember his name -- who innovated a mass Raven with mass CC/planetary super late game style that is pretty amazing.
The strength of the terran mid game is exactly the problem right now. Yes, Terran has the strongest mid game. So where is the problem you ask?
In PvT, P has (even worse with the previous maps) so many strong early game builds that terrans are usually on the back foot. Once P gets their quick 3rd up and defended, it is no longer mid game but late game since P can get their late game army on 3 bases. So basically the terran is stuck either dropping and hoping for protoss to split their army wrong or go for a SCV pull.
In ZvT, again, with good creep spread and lings blings that don't have to worry about the mines as much, zergs are taking their fourth much early and thus enter the late game. Many times, the 3 base aggression from terran gets run over when they try to go on creep with muta ling bling.
So you see, even tho terrans do have a stronger mid game. The mid game window is much much smaller in the current meta. So that is why terrans aren't doing well. As for the Super late game, you could argue terran is stronger but I think it depends on the comp. However, the length of the late game is long enough for most zergs and protoss to do enough damage. Imagine if there were maps where terran mech can take 4 bases easily, I am sure you would see mech dominate in TvZ.
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On May 01 2014 00:18 TXRaunchy wrote:
why always the terran buff?!
Maybe your mind is little bit forgetful, but terran got by far the most nerfs in Wings of Liberty.
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The Hellbat change is interesting. Could see this opening up some possibilities for a more pressure oriented play. But I also see the danger of this being absused to create unstoppable allins (marauder/hellbat), so I don´t know, if this is a good idea.
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On May 01 2014 00:49 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:44 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 01 2014 00:42 MstrJinbo wrote:On May 01 2014 00:37 mythandier wrote:
I still don't understand why the cost of Armories isn't reduced to either 100/100 or back to its BW cost. Option #2 is a good step but one of the primary prohibitive factors for a Hellbat/mech related timing is the cost of Armory + Factory(ies) + Upgrades. Since Terran has to build multiple production facilities and/or add-ons + armory + upgrades there's really a bottleneck in the early/early-midgame of resources. Typical current Terran openings involve 4-8 hellions and double evo continuous upgrades. Providing they keep those initial hellions alive it literally costs them nothing to add hellbats to their army. Indeed. Apparantly, I am the only one fearing the 8 hellbat 16 marine 2 medivac 1/1 stim timing just before spire and probably bane speed, but well, who am I... Forcing the zerg being not so greedy and droning like crazy with a 4rd at 9' might be beneficial for the terran, whatcha think ?
Disagree that zergs really are that greedy. Economywise it's very even (when you take into account mules) in the early game, and if you buff one race in that phase it very easily snowballs.
Terran already has the chance of winning the game outright with Hellion/Reaper into two medivac +1/1 at 10:30 if he outmicro's the zerg, and for instance Maru has been good at doing that.
But the issue is that when the zerg just plays solid in the early game, his midgame production is significantly stronger than of that of the terran player. Widow Mines can no longer be used to neutralizie that advantage, which makes the matchup imbalanced.
There are some easy small changes that can be made;
- Just reduce research cost of transformation Servos to 50/50. This will benefit all matchups I think without creating a significant early game imbalance in TvZ (which already works pretty well IMO).
- Reduce cost of Drilling Claws/research time + reduce BT of Widow Mines from 40 to 35 seconds.
The latter change will help terran in the midgame TvZ and make 1/1/1 a bit stronger in TvP (which I believe is good).
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On May 01 2014 01:28 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:49 Faust852 wrote:On May 01 2014 00:44 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 01 2014 00:42 MstrJinbo wrote:On May 01 2014 00:37 mythandier wrote:
I still don't understand why the cost of Armories isn't reduced to either 100/100 or back to its BW cost. Option #2 is a good step but one of the primary prohibitive factors for a Hellbat/mech related timing is the cost of Armory + Factory(ies) + Upgrades. Since Terran has to build multiple production facilities and/or add-ons + armory + upgrades there's really a bottleneck in the early/early-midgame of resources. Typical current Terran openings involve 4-8 hellions and double evo continuous upgrades. Providing they keep those initial hellions alive it literally costs them nothing to add hellbats to their army. Indeed. Apparantly, I am the only one fearing the 8 hellbat 16 marine 2 medivac 1/1 stim timing just before spire and probably bane speed, but well, who am I... Forcing the zerg being not so greedy and droning like crazy with a 4rd at 9' might be beneficial for the terran, whatcha think ? Disagree that zergs really are that greedy. Economywise it's very even (when you take into account mules) in the early game, and if you buff one race in that phase it very easily snowballs. Terran already has the chance of winning the game outright with Hellion/Reaper into two medivac +1/1 at 10:30 if he outmicro's the zerg, and for instance Maru has been good at doing that. But the issue is that when the zerg just plays solid in the early game, his midgame production is significantly stronger than of that of the terran player. Widow Mines can no longer be used to neutralizie that advantage, which makes the matchup imbalanced. There are some easy small changes that can be made; - Just reduce research cost of transformation Servos to 50/50. This will benefit all matchups I think without creating a significant early game imbalance in TvZ (which already works pretty well IMO). - Reduce cost of Drilling Claws/research time + reduce BT of Widow Mines from 40 to 35 seconds. The latter change will help terran in the midgame TvZ and make 1/1/1 a bit stronger in TvP (which I believe is good).
You say they have a stronger production in the midgame, and I think this is caused by the fact that they can drone that easily in the early stage of the game. Sure you can win with 6 hellions, a bunch of marines and a couple of medivac, but only if the zergs is greedy as fuck. Remember Inno vs Life g3 of DH ? Life had already his 4th finished when Inno wanted to put pressure, and mutalisk, that was a 11'30". It means that already this early, the Zerg can have a full saturated 3rd, a 4th finishing, and muta incoming. Imo, forcing the Zerg to produce a bigger army at 10' will help terran to deal with early mutalisk and being more agressive as we used to be before the mine nerf.
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Bunkers take to long too build imo, Blizzard should do something.
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On May 01 2014 00:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2014 00:44 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 01 2014 00:42 MstrJinbo wrote:On May 01 2014 00:37 mythandier wrote:
I still don't understand why the cost of Armories isn't reduced to either 100/100 or back to its BW cost. Option #2 is a good step but one of the primary prohibitive factors for a Hellbat/mech related timing is the cost of Armory + Factory(ies) + Upgrades. Since Terran has to build multiple production facilities and/or add-ons + armory + upgrades there's really a bottleneck in the early/early-midgame of resources. Typical current Terran openings involve 4-8 hellions and double evo continuous upgrades. Providing they keep those initial hellions alive it literally costs them nothing to add hellbats to their army. Indeed. Apparantly, I am the only one fearing the 8 hellbat 16 marine 2 medivac 1/1 stim timing just before spire and probably bane speed, but well, who am I... You're not, I wrote something similar some pages ago ( here). I don't understand why people vote against the first proposal (a fairly insignificant one), while they vote in favor of the second which may spiral out of control in TvZ and mech vs bio.
Well, people vote against the first one because they have been told that "Terran upgrades so strong" repeatedly.
And they vote for the second because it sounds like something that actually changes something in the game. Even if it turns out broken, it may be interesting to see. At least that is my take on it. I believe it would be nice to see it in a testmap. Sure, this kind of pushes sound very scary, or just the possibility of doing some hellion--> "wait you don't have roaches, transform, kill the third" not to mention dedicated 1-2base hellion pressure into bio/hellbat rush could all prove to be very strong. But for a testmap, I don't mind. Blizzard isn't going through with most of the changes on testmaps, especially if the pro-feedback is negative. But they usually test something else instead then, so I think it wouldn't be bad to just get anything out there for an experiment. That's why I gave 2upvotes.
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EPT
