|
It took a half year, 13 premier tournaments with no Terran winner in a row with only two runner ups, two seasons of Code S with 3 or 4 Terrans for them to understand that TvZ and TvP are slightly in favor for the non Terran race. I wonder how much time it will take them to understand that its not just slightly, its greatly!
#1 - i don't see it helping the Terrans. its not touching the core problems of TvP, and seems that in TvZ it will only help Terrans who got hit on their eco and cant afford this upgrades otherwise. the problem is that lake of AOE for the T to deal with the swarm of the zerg (this MU was balanced until they nerfed the mine)
#2 - this might help vs roach all ins, but i don't that this is the solution. if you can't scout it its your problem. its not like the zerg can hide their tech so easly and has tons of possibles all ins like the P that the Terran need a buff to stop them,
Terrans need their AOE back. helping them out by removing options from the zerg will only make the game less entertaining.
|
What about increasing the receeding speed of creep? IF you kill a huge field, it still takes minutes to go away, if that'd happen faster, Terran could push on more easilly.
|
On April 30 2014 18:50 c0olL wrote:
It took a half year, 13 premier tournaments with no Terran winner in a row with only two runner ups, two seasons of Code S with 3 or 4 Terrans for them to understand that TvZ and TvP are slightly in favor for the non Terran race. I wonder how much time it will take them to understand that its not just slightly, its greatly!
#1 - i don't see it helping the Terrans. its not touching the core problems of TvP, and seems that in TvZ it will only help Terrans who got hit on their eco and cant afford this upgrades otherwise. the problem is that lake of AOE for the T to deal with the swarm of the zerg (this MU was balanced until they nerfed the mine)
#2 - this might help vs roach all ins, but i don't that this is the solution. if you can't scout it its your problem. its not like the zerg can hide their tech so easly and has tons of possibles all ins like the P that the Terran need a buff to stop them,
Terrans need their AOE back. helping them out by removing options from the zerg will only make the game less entertaining.
I'm sorry but this MU wasn't balanced with the old mines. It was a fucking invisible Brood War tank in SC2. As a NON pro players, mines were REAAAALLLLYYY hard to deal with.
On April 30 2014 18:52 SC2Toastie wrote:
What about increasing the receeding speed of creep? IF you kill a huge field, it still takes minutes to go away, if that'd happen faster, Terran could push on more easilly.
That could be an idea too. The further it is from a tumor the faster it receeds ? Could be that creep spread a little less by tumor ?
|
The only opinion I have on this matter is that it is dumb that they want to fix Terran's fundamental early and late game issues with another mid game buff. I am disappointed that this is the approach Blizzard wants to take with SC2, but I understand. I don't think I will continue to be a part of the game though if this is their design philosophy. I think that both changes are meh at best (the first option is just straight up ridiculous) and they just kind of layer on top of Terran's powerful mid game without fixing the other issues Terran has.
I don't think anyone on Teamliquid or any forum has ever thought Terran had a weak mid game. I don't know why Blizzard keeps wanting to make solutions to Terran's problems mid game buffs. They've done this throughout all of HotS.
|
On April 30 2014 18:54 FFW_Rude wrote:
I'm sorry but this MU wasn't balanced with the old mines. It was a fucking invisible Brood War tank in SC2. As a NON pro players, mines were REAAAALLLLYYY hard to deal with.
It was starting to when zergs finally caught on to using overseers to sight and even take the hit. I remember a game with DRG before the nerf where he made mines insignificant. Of course, now they're nearly useless, as Bbyong just demonstrated with his GSL game.
|
On April 30 2014 18:54 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:50 c0olL wrote:
It took a half year, 13 premier tournaments with no Terran winner in a row with only two runner ups, two seasons of Code S with 3 or 4 Terrans for them to understand that TvZ and TvP are slightly in favor for the non Terran race. I wonder how much time it will take them to understand that its not just slightly, its greatly!
#1 - i don't see it helping the Terrans. its not touching the core problems of TvP, and seems that in TvZ it will only help Terrans who got hit on their eco and cant afford this upgrades otherwise. the problem is that lake of AOE for the T to deal with the swarm of the zerg (this MU was balanced until they nerfed the mine)
#2 - this might help vs roach all ins, but i don't that this is the solution. if you can't scout it its your problem. its not like the zerg can hide their tech so easly and has tons of possibles all ins like the P that the Terran need a buff to stop them,
Terrans need their AOE back. helping them out by removing options from the zerg will only make the game less entertaining.
I'm sorry but this MU wasn't balanced with the old mines. It was a fucking invisible Brood War tank in SC2. As a NON pro players, mines were REAAAALLLLYYY hard to deal with. Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:52 SC2Toastie wrote:
What about increasing the receeding speed of creep? IF you kill a huge field, it still takes minutes to go away, if that'd happen faster, Terran could push on more easilly. That could be an idea too. The further it is from a tumor the faster it receeds ? Could be that creep spread a little less by tumor ?
Storm and Colossi are also hard to deal with for NON pros. Also DRG showed the way with his bane splits.
|
I think if they would bring the old snipe / old EMP back the Ghost will get a Comeback especially in TvZ.
Additional I would Nuke a huge Buff ( e.g. +DMG against shields ) because it is a pure joke compared with the Cost and the Countdown of a Nuke..
|
On April 30 2014 09:42 avilo wrote:
My thoughts:
About option 1:
Why are they always buffing bio more and more and when they finally say something like they are willing to cut costs on bio upgrades...why are they not willing to make armories 100/50 to help mech TvP and mech in general? Dkim seems to understand the concept that cutting a few 1 time upgrade costs can change the game entirely...but he's unwilling to do that for mech TvP via armories...
About option 2:
Yes, hellions/transform should have been like that since the game came out because we payed for an expansion pack where one of the highlighted units was the hellions gaining the ability to transform but you rarely ever see this in games at all, at least professional games because it's only researched with late late game mech.
So...yeah. About TvP, only the first 10-15 minutes are broken in Protoss favor because of all-ins and proxied stargates + ferraricles and blink all-in + MSC nexus cannon forcing Terran to go reaper expand virtually every game. Nexus cannon alone forces Terran to have to get a 2nd command center because there is no reasonable way to open 1 base banshee or 1 base drop since it will be shut down.
And about TvZ...only reason it looks more Z favored are because of the maps and because the widow mine nerf imo. The mine nerf right now is allowing Zerg to virtually mass 1 unit, the mutalisk almost unimpeded. Revert mine nerf, match-up is back to normal. Of course then Zergs will complain again that they can't box select 200/200 ling bane muta and walk through a mine field...but they should not have been able to like they can right now.
Hard so say for me but Avilo is right.
|
On April 30 2014 19:03 kinsky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 09:42 avilo wrote:
My thoughts:
About option 1:
Why are they always buffing bio more and more and when they finally say something like they are willing to cut costs on bio upgrades...why are they not willing to make armories 100/50 to help mech TvP and mech in general? Dkim seems to understand the concept that cutting a few 1 time upgrade costs can change the game entirely...but he's unwilling to do that for mech TvP via armories...
About option 2:
Yes, hellions/transform should have been like that since the game came out because we payed for an expansion pack where one of the highlighted units was the hellions gaining the ability to transform but you rarely ever see this in games at all, at least professional games because it's only researched with late late game mech.
So...yeah. About TvP, only the first 10-15 minutes are broken in Protoss favor because of all-ins and proxied stargates + ferraricles and blink all-in + MSC nexus cannon forcing Terran to go reaper expand virtually every game. Nexus cannon alone forces Terran to have to get a 2nd command center because there is no reasonable way to open 1 base banshee or 1 base drop since it will be shut down.
And about TvZ...only reason it looks more Z favored are because of the maps and because the widow mine nerf imo. The mine nerf right now is allowing Zerg to virtually mass 1 unit, the mutalisk almost unimpeded. Revert mine nerf, match-up is back to normal. Of course then Zergs will complain again that they can't box select 200/200 ling bane muta and walk through a mine field...but they should not have been able to like they can right now.
Hard so say for me but Avilo is right.
Yes, this seemes quite about right overall and in line with my own thoughts.
|
On April 30 2014 18:58 AaronChance wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:54 FFW_Rude wrote:
I'm sorry but this MU wasn't balanced with the old mines. It was a fucking invisible Brood War tank in SC2. As a NON pro players, mines were REAAAALLLLYYY hard to deal with. It was starting to when zergs finally caught on to using overseers to sight and even take the hit. I remember a game with DRG before the nerf where he made mines insignificant. Of course, now they're nearly useless, as Bbyong just demonstrated with his GSL game.
And the second game between Bbyong vs. Dark demonstrates why mech is so frustfrating to play with. Eventually you will be fighting against waves of locusts.
|
Dark could just remax with muta / corruptor, and easily murder the terran forces. Zerg have so many options.
|
On April 30 2014 18:54 FFW_Rude wrote:
I'm sorry but this MU wasn't balanced with the old mines. It was a fucking invisible Brood War tank in SC2. As a NON pro players, mines were REAAAALLLLYYY hard to deal with.
That's the attitude that gave us a game where we can't see someone like Flash outmakro a slightly lesser pro gamer. The game should not be balanced around non pro gamers, in fact game balance should completely ignore the problems/opinions etc. pp. of non pro gamers. Mines were starting to get figured out on a pro level, just as mutas zvz began to get figured out when they overbuffed spores. Blizzard is continuing to fuck this game up, partially because the fundamental design has a lot of flaws that make it really hard to balance around (free units, forcefields etc.) and partially because they keep nerfing/buffing things as they get figured out on a pro level.
Stop rolling the dice on some weird unnecessary changes, hots is full of them. Roach burrow movement, hydra attack speed, spore massive over buff, oracle speed/acceleration buff and warp prism speed buff. Just stop already and let progamers figure out these problems. We'll never see anyone dominate the game for more than a few months when the game just keeps on changing and changing. If you feel like you have to change all the time maybe address the issue that the entire economy system of star 2 still has small maps and 15-20 minute games in mind. It should make sense to take more than 3 bases for other purposes than having more gas geysers.
|
Bbyong got raped by Dark.
I wonder if this patch comes throught before all T are eliminated from Code S or after.
Still not sure if this patch is enough.
|
"We believe ZvP is in a good place with a lot of diversity."
I really feel like they play different game then me.... Its not that I care now that Dark Souls 2 is released...Goodbye SC2 I had a good time with you
|
I like that Blizzard is doing this "following up on balance" posts regularly now. That's a thing I want to continue.
I believe the upgrade cost change wouldn't be very effective, I don't think terran has a problem reaching the money they need to insta-build 2-2 or 3-3 already, and the upgrades still take the same (really long) time, so I'd argue nothing changes there. The savings are really meager. A reaper and a medivac extra? Not game changing I believe.
The Hellbat change, though, that feels good for me, and I do think that opens up interesting aggressive options in TvP (marauder hellbat?) and TvZ, though it might honestly be too strong (said as a Terran). But it's good to experiment, they can always just make the upgrade cheap/fast a la concussive shell if it's too much.
I'm surprised at the negativity. They are just giving us a heads up, proving they still look at the games, and offering ideas to make the game better. How's this a bad thing?
|
Probably the word 'slightly,' and the fact neither of these changes are going to keep terran from slipping further out of the pro scene, aside from one shot matches in proleague.
|
Option 1:
- Terran infantry level 2 upgrade costs down from 175/175 to 150/150.
- Terran infantry level 3 upgrade costs down from 250/250 to 200/200.
Not needed, but not a big deal, so why not. I have no idea why people think this will make Terrans get 3/3 faster in TvZ since the upgrades are supposed to be started as soon as the previous ones are done, and resources are not a problem for that. Unless reducing the upgrade cost magically implements Chrono boost on Orbitals, the 2/2 and 3/3 timings will be completely unchanged. At best this will make triple OC builds a bit smoother and that's all, really. The idea that 3/3 bio totally dominates 2/2 lings/banes/mutas is also wrong, you still lose most fights even with that temporary advantage (Zergs could already compete with 2/2 vs 3/3 + the old Mines, so now that the 3/3 vs 2/2 window is shorter [weaker Terran midgame = faster Hive] and the Mines are weaker, there is really no reason at all to freak out). Actually this change would be more helpful in TvP than in TvZ because Ghosts/Vikings are horribly expensive.
Option 2:
- Remove the transformation servos upgrade.
- Allow Hellions to transform to Hellbats when Hellbats are enabled with the armory.
This sounds insane. Having Terran automatically have 6-8 Hellbats in their Medivac push in TvZ (yep, the Armory is done at this time) is simply a bad idea. Having ForGG's mech style being able to turn 30 Hellions into 30 AoE Zealots in TvT is a terrible idea as well for bio. Just no.
To fix TvZ, address the real concerns:
- Halve muta regen.
- Have Drilling Claws (remember this upgrade isn't done before 14' at best) boost a bit the AoE to an intermediate state between the pre-nerf Mines and the current ones. For example this:
Up to 1.25 radius: 40 (unchanged)
From 1.25 to 1.5: 30 (up from 20)
From 1.5 to 1.75: 15 (up from 10)
(For reference, the old Mine was 40 for the 3 values.)
Boom, TvZ bio fixed.
And please revert the Stim nerf so a bunch of TvP 2-bases timings just reap their long due death.
|
Balance aside, the tvz mu were alot better with the old widow mine. Both to watch and play.
I see no reason why they cant go that way, AND if there are balance issues do something fun for zerg?
Infestors can block widowmines from shooting with their root.
3-3 upgrades for lings/banes at lair
Iam sure there are other "easy" solutions to this, i say easy cuz blizzard have this philosophy "Carrers of the line"
These two things are very easy to get into the game, especially the infestor one since it only affect zvt and not any other mu.
After 1year of hots, they finally have a plan to encourage the transform of hellbat, a hellbat which have small amount of micro. To be completely honest, why do they wanna do this now, its much funnier seeing the old widowmine in place cuz it encourage micro and positioning for both sides while the hellbat isnt even close to ecnourage those things.
|
Removing Servos, for TvZ at least, gives Terran a more strength against Baneling Bursts.
Verz Terran no real different vs Bio and the most I have seen a Terran make Hellions against Protoss is usually 2-4 and they are immediately suicided to keep Protoss from attacking.
|
On April 30 2014 19:48 Foxxan wrote:
Balance aside, the tvz mu were alot better with the old widow mine. Both to watch and play.
I see no reason why they cant go that way, AND if there are balance issues do something fun for zerg?
Infestors can block widowmines from shooting with their root.
3-3 upgrades for lings/banes at lair
Iam sure there are other "easy" solutions to this, i say easy cuz blizzard have this philosophy "Carrers of the line"
These two things are very easy to get into the game, especially the infestor one since it only affect zvt and not any other mu.
After 1year of hots, they finally have a plan to encourage the transform of hellbat, a hellbat which have small amount of micro. To be completely honest, why do they wanna do this now, its much funnier seeing the old widowmine in place cuz it encourage micro and positioning for both sides while the hellbat isnt even close to ecnourage those things.
infestors ling style was not viable against old bio mine style because how mobile terran bio is and parade push basically pushes non stop and infestors just don't have enough energy and get snowballed.
the amount of mobility makes it extremely easy to get infestors out of positioned and ling infestors itself is a difficult to split up defend drop and multi-prong aggression unit composition.
imo the widow mine is great for now except may need a buff in TvZ but certainly not old mines level.
The fact that terran no longer parade push is good because we have more positional games that relies on army movement with muta harass and drop defense and transition into bio mech rather than non stop poking, into zerg commit engagement that last less than 2 seconds because widow mine splashes everything.
Not to mention widow mine is far too "luck dependent" for a zone control unit, for an momentum based matchup, this much randomness swings the momentum way too quickly.
I also like how pros are stacking up mines for muta defense, it makes the units more of a zone defense control unit that it should be.
Despite my constant bash on thedwf, I do agree that muta does need a nerf on regen and that mines do need some aoe buff.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind if bio mech gets a buff instead and not necessarily a muta nerf
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
