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Well Hellbat/Hellion change saves me some gas when meching, but other than that I don't really see the point.
What I really really really don't understand is making Terran upgrades cheaper. I already didn't get making protoss upgrades cheaper, overbuffing the living shit out of spores (wasn't it great how even ovies died in 2 seconds when Jaedong tried to baneling drop that foreigners @dreamhack? Well thank the spore buff for that) and removing the siege mode upgrade among other things.
But hey if you feel like you have to patch you might as well role the dice on something. You could also listen to most Korean pros and leave the game untouched and let progamers figure it out, but god forbid we may actually get a stable meta and people wouldn't magically stop dominating after a few weeks because the game changed.
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On April 30 2014 17:46 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 17:39 Destructicon wrote:
I don't see the upgrade cost changing much in TvZ. Terrans going bio could already afford them easily without sacrificing units and could get a upgrade lead over zergs anyway. The issues is that bio vs zerg doesn't seem to be able to compete any more given that WM where nerfed and siege tanks just aren't an appropriate alternative.
And despite a really strong 2 months or so of testing and trying mech by a lot of pro gamers, it seems a lot of them have come to the inevitable conclusion that, mech still has massive flaws in its gameplay that are easily exploited, so they gave up on it.
The change might actually help TvP where gas is a issue when building an army with bio + vikings + ghosts while trying to not fall behind toss in terms of upgrades. However it doesn't really address the real issue of terrans still having a really hard time hitting any early timings because of how strong defense is, or not having any stronger transition in the late game, or having a hard time closing out the game.
The removal of transformation servos is a good idea and is possibly the most impactful of the new changes. The reason being that terrans could possibly hit some new timings in all MUs. Weather it be for drops or just pushes, and particularly in TvZ, if said timings are strong enough to force a more defensive reaction from the zerg, then it could mean they can't drone as hard and terran could enter the mid game with more of an advantage, maybe enough to be on even footing. However it, again, won't address the mid and late game problems where bio just doesn't trade well any more against ling, bling muta.
Overall I give a big yes to the transformation servos upgrade, a big no to the upgrade change, and a really big sigh to the entire patch idea. I dunno, it feels like Blizzard doesn't know how to actually fix the real issues here. This is a dumb remark from me but... Why do Terrans continues to try to early push when it's absolutly impossible to do damage. Maybe it's a bad analogy but when Oov revolutionized Terrans, the vultures he made where kept in his base rather than harassing. And because of that he always had more units on defense to take an earlier base. [...]
Because Terran has to play an even harder lategame. In WOL, you'd damage and delay the Protoss so you could enter the lategame 'ahead' and as a result of that, be 'even' in the long run.
In HOTS, you cannot do the damage, start lategame 'even' and because of that, you are behind.
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On April 30 2014 17:52 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 17:46 FFW_Rude wrote:On April 30 2014 17:39 Destructicon wrote:
I don't see the upgrade cost changing much in TvZ. Terrans going bio could already afford them easily without sacrificing units and could get a upgrade lead over zergs anyway. The issues is that bio vs zerg doesn't seem to be able to compete any more given that WM where nerfed and siege tanks just aren't an appropriate alternative.
And despite a really strong 2 months or so of testing and trying mech by a lot of pro gamers, it seems a lot of them have come to the inevitable conclusion that, mech still has massive flaws in its gameplay that are easily exploited, so they gave up on it.
The change might actually help TvP where gas is a issue when building an army with bio + vikings + ghosts while trying to not fall behind toss in terms of upgrades. However it doesn't really address the real issue of terrans still having a really hard time hitting any early timings because of how strong defense is, or not having any stronger transition in the late game, or having a hard time closing out the game.
The removal of transformation servos is a good idea and is possibly the most impactful of the new changes. The reason being that terrans could possibly hit some new timings in all MUs. Weather it be for drops or just pushes, and particularly in TvZ, if said timings are strong enough to force a more defensive reaction from the zerg, then it could mean they can't drone as hard and terran could enter the mid game with more of an advantage, maybe enough to be on even footing. However it, again, won't address the mid and late game problems where bio just doesn't trade well any more against ling, bling muta.
Overall I give a big yes to the transformation servos upgrade, a big no to the upgrade change, and a really big sigh to the entire patch idea. I dunno, it feels like Blizzard doesn't know how to actually fix the real issues here. This is a dumb remark from me but... Why do Terrans continues to try to early push when it's absolutly impossible to do damage. Maybe it's a bad analogy but when Oov revolutionized Terrans, the vultures he made where kept in his base rather than harassing. And because of that he always had more units on defense to take an earlier base. [...] Because Terran has to play an even harder lategame. In WOL, you'd damage and delay the Protoss so you could enter the lategame 'ahead' and as a result of that, be 'even' in the long run. In HOTS, you cannot do the damage, start lategame 'even' and because of that, you are behind.
Well, maybe there's a really defensive style with crazy expansions that have not been explore yet. I feel you respond to my question with knowledge of what it is now (well... that's understandable). But i'm sure there's stuff we didn't figure out yet.
For exemple. In TvZ. The ****ink turtle terran mech into mass air is something that poped out recently (well... fairly recently)
Oh and i see a lot of people saying TvZ is really harder now. Is that because of new maps ? Are they that zerg favored ?
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On April 30 2014 17:18 Squat wrote:
Cheaper upgrades will just make it even easier to beat zerg to 3/3, which terrans does comfortably already. The hellbat change is good.
I think giving mines back a little of their oomph(not all of it) would be a better idea than making upgrades even easier to get.
Well said. Upgrade buff will break TvZ hard , hence the change won't happen.
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Upgrade change seems weird, it was already weird for Protoss (more so given their ability to Chrono their upgrades).
It pushes the upgrade advantage more for Terran in TvZ (as Zerg needs Infestation Pit + Hive for 3/3) and does nothing for TvP.
Hellion change does seem good, the unit required a multitude of upgrades to come into its own (Blueflame, Servos and attack/armor) so it's nice to see this improved. It might make early hellion pushes more flexible as you can shift them into Hellbats later. Might make Hellion/Hellbat drops more interesting as well.
I just wish Blizzard would just modify Photon Overcharge already.
Protoss cannot be touched in the first 10 minutes but can throw a mountain range of all-ins at you.
I'd be willing to accept the all-in part if I could atleast return the favor or actually punish Protoss if the all-in fails.
As it is, you cannot do any damage yourself, and an all-in can only break you even in the best case.
Just reduce the range to 8 and increase the energy cost to 150 to avoid insta-recall and Photon Overcharge on the spot.
It is way too much of a catch-all safety net right now.
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I am the only one to think the hellbat buff to be HUGE ?
I mean it allows defence against roach all ins/counter-pressure in TvZ, and gives the helion opening in TvP much more solidity.
I really think we are close to see biomech (a la reality in TvZ) popularized. In TvP, we already see biomines (with few marau) and sometimes added hellbats (ala ForGG). This patch could seal the deal.
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On April 30 2014 18:01 Thezzy wrote:
Upgrade change seems weird, it was already weird for Protoss (more so given their ability to Chrono their upgrades).
It pushes the upgrade advantage more for Terran in TvZ (as Zerg needs Infestation Pit + Hive for 3/3) and does nothing for TvP.
Hellion change does seem good, the unit required a multitude of upgrades to come into its own (Blueflame, Servos and attack/armor) so it's nice to see this improved. It might make early hellion pushes more flexible as you can shift them into Hellbats later. Might make Hellion/Hellbat drops more interesting as well.
I just wish Blizzard would just modify Photon Overcharge already.
Protoss cannot be touched in the first 10 minutes but can throw a mountain range of all-ins at you.
I'd be willing to accept the all-in part if I could atleast return the favor or actually punish Protoss if the all-in fails.
As it is, you cannot do any damage yourself, and an all-in can only break you even in the best case.
Just reduce the range to 8 and increase the energy cost to 150 to avoid insta-recall and Photon Overcharge on the spot.
It is way too much of a catch-all safety net right now.
Photon Overcharge is fine, you cant recall and expect to hold a counter attack early game (not enough energy). Some Terrans think WoL days is normal, no, it was broken and that is why Photon Overcharge was introduced.
And yes, you can punish Toss early, it is risky, but all aggressive strats have higher risk.
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On April 30 2014 18:01 Thezzy wrote:
Upgrade change seems weird, it was already weird for Protoss (more so given their ability to Chrono their upgrades).
It pushes the upgrade advantage more for Terran in TvZ (as Zerg needs Infestation Pit + Hive for 3/3) and does nothing for TvP.
Hellion change does seem good, the unit required a multitude of upgrades to come into its own (Blueflame, Servos and attack/armor) so it's nice to see this improved. It might make early hellion pushes more flexible as you can shift them into Hellbats later. Might make Hellion/Hellbat drops more interesting as well.
I just wish Blizzard would just modify Photon Overcharge already.
Protoss cannot be touched in the first 10 minutes but can throw a mountain range of all-ins at you.
I'd be willing to accept the all-in part if I could atleast return the favor or actually punish Protoss if the all-in fails.
As it is, you cannot do any damage yourself, and an all-in can only break you even in the best case.
Just reduce the range to 8 and increase the energy cost to 150 to avoid insta-recall and Photon Overcharge on the spot.
It is way too much of a catch-all safety net right now.
I'd actually prefer to increase the energy cost of recall to 150. In it's current form it's mostly a tool to be able to make mistakes and avoid being punished or to attack without committing anything.
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Well, maybe there's a really defensive style with crazy expansions that have not been explore yet.
There soon will be no terans to explore anything. For example, lets imagine that teran finally buffed so they can force others races to react to 100 terans opening. There still will be no terans around, because there are no teran below pros. Level of buffs proposed are ridiculously low.
Personally I believe that mateship core should give NO vision and have no attack. So, reaper can stick around and see what protos doing. If protos want to scout they have to warp senteries. They have free scouting from that.
Right now mama core does everything - deny scouting, defend, scout, help attack and can kill couple marines. It is completely ridiculous unit.
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On April 30 2014 18:07 Mutineer wrote:Show nested quote +
Well, maybe there's a really defensive style with crazy expansions that have not been explore yet.
There soon will be no terans to explore anything. For example, lets imagine that teran finally buffed so they can force others races to react to 100 terans opening. There still will be no terans around, because there are no teran below pros. Level of buffs proposed are ridiculously low. Personally I believe that mateship core should give NO vision and have no attack. So, reaper can stick around and see what protos doing. If protos want to scout they have to warp senteries. They have free scouting from that. Right now mama core does everything - deny scouting, defend, scout, help attack and can kill couple marines. It is completely ridiculous unit.
Again, you want Terran to have an advantage in early scouting ? cos that is what you propose. Terran gets to scout early (reaper), and Toss much later with sentry (need to wait for 100 energy). So terran knows what is going on early but Toss cannot? Yeah right.
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On April 30 2014 18:07 Mutineer wrote:Show nested quote +
Well, maybe there's a really defensive style with crazy expansions that have not been explore yet.
There soon will be no terans to explore anything. For example, lets imagine that teran finally buffed so they can force others races to react to 100 terans opening. There still will be no terans around, because there are no teran below pros. Level of buffs proposed are ridiculously low. Personally I believe that mateship core should give NO vision and have no attack. So, reaper can stick around and see what protos doing. If protos want to scout they have to warp senteries. They have free scouting from that. Right now mama core does everything - deny scouting, defend, scout, help attack and can kill couple marines. It is completely ridiculous unit.
The problem is that msc change would break PvP 
And if you look at the numbers there is quite a number of terran. Don't overexagerate 
On April 30 2014 18:11 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:07 Mutineer wrote:
Well, maybe there's a really defensive style with crazy expansions that have not been explore yet.
There soon will be no terans to explore anything. For example, lets imagine that teran finally buffed so they can force others races to react to 100 terans opening. There still will be no terans around, because there are no teran below pros. Level of buffs proposed are ridiculously low. Personally I believe that mateship core should give NO vision and have no attack. So, reaper can stick around and see what protos doing. If protos want to scout they have to warp senteries. They have free scouting from that. Right now mama core does everything - deny scouting, defend, scout, help attack and can kill couple marines. It is completely ridiculous unit. Again, you want Terran to have an advantage in early scouting ? cos that is what you propose. Terran gets to scout early (reaper), and Toss much later with sentry (need to wait for 100 energy). So terran knows what is going on early but Toss cannot? Yeah right.
Well early scouting is still really important. And protoss can defend a lot early game so it's not that big of deal for them to have later scouting. But maybe i'm wrong
Starcraft is a 3 difference race strategy game so it's hard to tweek something in a mu that doesn't break another.
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On April 30 2014 17:54 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 17:52 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 17:46 FFW_Rude wrote:On April 30 2014 17:39 Destructicon wrote:
I don't see the upgrade cost changing much in TvZ. Terrans going bio could already afford them easily without sacrificing units and could get a upgrade lead over zergs anyway. The issues is that bio vs zerg doesn't seem to be able to compete any more given that WM where nerfed and siege tanks just aren't an appropriate alternative.
And despite a really strong 2 months or so of testing and trying mech by a lot of pro gamers, it seems a lot of them have come to the inevitable conclusion that, mech still has massive flaws in its gameplay that are easily exploited, so they gave up on it.
The change might actually help TvP where gas is a issue when building an army with bio + vikings + ghosts while trying to not fall behind toss in terms of upgrades. However it doesn't really address the real issue of terrans still having a really hard time hitting any early timings because of how strong defense is, or not having any stronger transition in the late game, or having a hard time closing out the game.
The removal of transformation servos is a good idea and is possibly the most impactful of the new changes. The reason being that terrans could possibly hit some new timings in all MUs. Weather it be for drops or just pushes, and particularly in TvZ, if said timings are strong enough to force a more defensive reaction from the zerg, then it could mean they can't drone as hard and terran could enter the mid game with more of an advantage, maybe enough to be on even footing. However it, again, won't address the mid and late game problems where bio just doesn't trade well any more against ling, bling muta.
Overall I give a big yes to the transformation servos upgrade, a big no to the upgrade change, and a really big sigh to the entire patch idea. I dunno, it feels like Blizzard doesn't know how to actually fix the real issues here. This is a dumb remark from me but... Why do Terrans continues to try to early push when it's absolutly impossible to do damage. Maybe it's a bad analogy but when Oov revolutionized Terrans, the vultures he made where kept in his base rather than harassing. And because of that he always had more units on defense to take an earlier base. [...] Because Terran has to play an even harder lategame. In WOL, you'd damage and delay the Protoss so you could enter the lategame 'ahead' and as a result of that, be 'even' in the long run. In HOTS, you cannot do the damage, start lategame 'even' and because of that, you are behind. Well, maybe there's a really defensive style with crazy expansions that have not been explore yet. I feel you respond to my question with knowledge of what it is now (well... that's understandable). But i'm sure there's stuff we didn't figure out yet. For exemple. In TvZ. The ****ink turtle terran mech into mass air is something that poped out recently (well... fairly recently) Oh and i see a lot of people saying TvZ is really harder now. Is that because of new maps ? Are they that zerg favored ?
Undoubtedly there is stuff to figure out, always.
I just don't expect there to be, because in my humble opinion, you need a next 'stage' to make hyperdefensive play worthwhile, a stage of superiority either via tech or via massing units.
Massing units vs Protoss is a bad idea, because their army scales better.
There's also no Tech you can head for, because Protoss has the stronger endgame army, Collosus/Templar/Tempest/Filler beats pretty much every Terran composition.
So, I suppose that is what I have to say about that.
As for TvZ, people have been complaining about that for longer, but Protoss was a bigger problem. Now, with the mine patch making midgame MMMM pressure REALLY lethal and Terrans learning to scout and beat the Protoss 'bullshit builds', people now notice Zerg.
Which is a combination of the new maps being pretty good for Zerg, as well as that silly patch that had no explanation other than 'we feel like it'.
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The Hellion/ Hellbat changes is the no brainer. Mind you, it should have been done the moment the Helbat dmg was nerfed.
Also, TvP is a terrible MU that's all about what cheese Protoss will bring to the table, and Terran being restricted in openings and tech/composition no matter what.
Blizz must have terribly low expectations if they think this is a fine status quo.
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On April 30 2014 18:00 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 17:18 Squat wrote:
Cheaper upgrades will just make it even easier to beat zerg to 3/3, which terrans does comfortably already. The hellbat change is good.
I think giving mines back a little of their oomph(not all of it) would be a better idea than making upgrades even easier to get. Well said. Upgrade buff will break TvZ hard , hence the change won't happen.
rofl. You're clueless.
Upgrades won't hit faster, they're limited by research time, not cost.
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On April 30 2014 18:06 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:01 Thezzy wrote:
Upgrade change seems weird, it was already weird for Protoss (more so given their ability to Chrono their upgrades).
It pushes the upgrade advantage more for Terran in TvZ (as Zerg needs Infestation Pit + Hive for 3/3) and does nothing for TvP.
Hellion change does seem good, the unit required a multitude of upgrades to come into its own (Blueflame, Servos and attack/armor) so it's nice to see this improved. It might make early hellion pushes more flexible as you can shift them into Hellbats later. Might make Hellion/Hellbat drops more interesting as well.
I just wish Blizzard would just modify Photon Overcharge already.
Protoss cannot be touched in the first 10 minutes but can throw a mountain range of all-ins at you.
I'd be willing to accept the all-in part if I could atleast return the favor or actually punish Protoss if the all-in fails.
As it is, you cannot do any damage yourself, and an all-in can only break you even in the best case.
Just reduce the range to 8 and increase the energy cost to 150 to avoid insta-recall and Photon Overcharge on the spot.
It is way too much of a catch-all safety net right now. I'd actually prefer to increase the energy cost of recall to 150. In it's current form it's mostly a tool to be able to make mistakes and avoid being punished or to attack without committing anything.
I'd prefer Photon Overcharge to be upgrade that needs to be researched (in Cybercore maybe at like 100/100?). That way Protoss can choose not to research it and put all resources into an all-in, but therefor be vulnerable to counters, if the all-in fails. Or the Protoss does research it to be safe, but it will make his early pressure weaker.
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Northern Ireland27256 Posts
Protoss can hold a hell of a lot blindly in the matchup, so a disparity in scouting ability isn't a massive deal. Personally I prefer the ability to scout better and reactively prepare than having solid catch-all defensive units though.
We'll see how things turn out. I'd also prefer to see previous changes reversed especially:
1. Protoss upgrade costs. A change rooted in WoL where Protoss had to invest hundreds of gas in sentries still in place when they don't. Not to mention all ground units share these ups unlike the bio/mech melee/ranged splits that Terran and Zerg have.
2. Oracle speed buff. Holdable but annoying as hell and the ostensible reason for it - lategame utility didn't change at all.
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On April 30 2014 18:05 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:01 Thezzy wrote:
Upgrade change seems weird, it was already weird for Protoss (more so given their ability to Chrono their upgrades).
It pushes the upgrade advantage more for Terran in TvZ (as Zerg needs Infestation Pit + Hive for 3/3) and does nothing for TvP.
Hellion change does seem good, the unit required a multitude of upgrades to come into its own (Blueflame, Servos and attack/armor) so it's nice to see this improved. It might make early hellion pushes more flexible as you can shift them into Hellbats later. Might make Hellion/Hellbat drops more interesting as well.
I just wish Blizzard would just modify Photon Overcharge already.
Protoss cannot be touched in the first 10 minutes but can throw a mountain range of all-ins at you.
I'd be willing to accept the all-in part if I could atleast return the favor or actually punish Protoss if the all-in fails.
As it is, you cannot do any damage yourself, and an all-in can only break you even in the best case.
Just reduce the range to 8 and increase the energy cost to 150 to avoid insta-recall and Photon Overcharge on the spot.
It is way too much of a catch-all safety net right now. Photon Overcharge is fine, you cant recall and expect to hold a counter attack early game (not enough energy). Some Terrans think WoL days is normal, no, it was broken and that is why Photon Overcharge was introduced. And yes, you can punish Toss early, it is risky, but all aggressive strats have higher risk.
How do you do it? Build 2 rax near the Nexus and hope he ignores them? Or trust in the P micro vs hellions (never forget Maru vs Stats i think it was on Starstation (edit: on Belshir, source: SC2Toastie))
Terran is the hardest race with its mechanics imo (no decent foreigner plays it), it should get the necessary buffs to make it worthwhile to play the race. The presented buffs in the OP are kinda lackluster.
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On April 30 2014 18:17 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:06 Zetter wrote:On April 30 2014 18:01 Thezzy wrote:
Upgrade change seems weird, it was already weird for Protoss (more so given their ability to Chrono their upgrades).
It pushes the upgrade advantage more for Terran in TvZ (as Zerg needs Infestation Pit + Hive for 3/3) and does nothing for TvP.
Hellion change does seem good, the unit required a multitude of upgrades to come into its own (Blueflame, Servos and attack/armor) so it's nice to see this improved. It might make early hellion pushes more flexible as you can shift them into Hellbats later. Might make Hellion/Hellbat drops more interesting as well.
I just wish Blizzard would just modify Photon Overcharge already.
Protoss cannot be touched in the first 10 minutes but can throw a mountain range of all-ins at you.
I'd be willing to accept the all-in part if I could atleast return the favor or actually punish Protoss if the all-in fails.
As it is, you cannot do any damage yourself, and an all-in can only break you even in the best case.
Just reduce the range to 8 and increase the energy cost to 150 to avoid insta-recall and Photon Overcharge on the spot.
It is way too much of a catch-all safety net right now. I'd actually prefer to increase the energy cost of recall to 150. In it's current form it's mostly a tool to be able to make mistakes and avoid being punished or to attack without committing anything. I'd prefer Photon Overcharge to be upgrade that needs to be researched (in Cybercore maybe at like 100/100?). That way Protoss can choose not to research it and put all resources into an all-in, but therefor be vulnerable to counters, if the all-in fails. Or the Protoss does research it to be safe, but it will make his early pressure weaker.
What about warpgate? You need both to defend.
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On April 30 2014 18:19 gingerfluffmuff wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:05 Parcelleus wrote:On April 30 2014 18:01 Thezzy wrote:
Upgrade change seems weird, it was already weird for Protoss (more so given their ability to Chrono their upgrades).
It pushes the upgrade advantage more for Terran in TvZ (as Zerg needs Infestation Pit + Hive for 3/3) and does nothing for TvP.
Hellion change does seem good, the unit required a multitude of upgrades to come into its own (Blueflame, Servos and attack/armor) so it's nice to see this improved. It might make early hellion pushes more flexible as you can shift them into Hellbats later. Might make Hellion/Hellbat drops more interesting as well.
I just wish Blizzard would just modify Photon Overcharge already.
Protoss cannot be touched in the first 10 minutes but can throw a mountain range of all-ins at you.
I'd be willing to accept the all-in part if I could atleast return the favor or actually punish Protoss if the all-in fails.
As it is, you cannot do any damage yourself, and an all-in can only break you even in the best case.
Just reduce the range to 8 and increase the energy cost to 150 to avoid insta-recall and Photon Overcharge on the spot.
It is way too much of a catch-all safety net right now. Photon Overcharge is fine, you cant recall and expect to hold a counter attack early game (not enough energy). Some Terrans think WoL days is normal, no, it was broken and that is why Photon Overcharge was introduced. And yes, you can punish Toss early, it is risky, but all aggressive strats have higher risk. How do you do it? Build 2 rax near the Nexus and hope he ignores them? Or trust in the P micro vs hellions (never forget Maru vs Stats i think it was on Starstation) Terran is the hardest race with its mechanics imo (no decent foreigner plays it), it should get the necessary buffs to make it worthwhile to play the race. The presented buffs in the OP are kinda lackluster.
Maru v Stats was Bel Shir Vestige.
Protoss and Zerg are hard races too, don't be so cocky.
Proxy raxes can still get you far ahead.
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EPT
