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On April 30 2014 19:03 kinsky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 09:42 avilo wrote:
My thoughts:
About option 1:
Why are they always buffing bio more and more and when they finally say something like they are willing to cut costs on bio upgrades...why are they not willing to make armories 100/50 to help mech TvP and mech in general? Dkim seems to understand the concept that cutting a few 1 time upgrade costs can change the game entirely...but he's unwilling to do that for mech TvP via armories...
About option 2:
Yes, hellions/transform should have been like that since the game came out because we payed for an expansion pack where one of the highlighted units was the hellions gaining the ability to transform but you rarely ever see this in games at all, at least professional games because it's only researched with late late game mech.
So...yeah. About TvP, only the first 10-15 minutes are broken in Protoss favor because of all-ins and proxied stargates + ferraricles and blink all-in + MSC nexus cannon forcing Terran to go reaper expand virtually every game. Nexus cannon alone forces Terran to have to get a 2nd command center because there is no reasonable way to open 1 base banshee or 1 base drop since it will be shut down.
And about TvZ...only reason it looks more Z favored are because of the maps and because the widow mine nerf imo. The mine nerf right now is allowing Zerg to virtually mass 1 unit, the mutalisk almost unimpeded. Revert mine nerf, match-up is back to normal. Of course then Zergs will complain again that they can't box select 200/200 ling bane muta and walk through a mine field...but they should not have been able to like they can right now.
Hard so say for me but Avilo is right.
He is actually right most of the time. It's just his insufferable personality that makes people discredit his thoughts.
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I really like the idea of implementing changes in favor of Terran, as the race has been a bit weak for quite some time now. However, again removing the morph upgrade or lowering the costs of bio upgrades is not the optimal approach, as it makes the game easier for Terran instead of making it harder for Zerg and Protoss (much like the Ghost energy upgrade buff).
Timewarp (if not removed from the game completely) needs to be an upgrade that Protoss has to spend research time and resources on (in Cybercore maybe), that would weaken any hard pressure Protoss can pull off, since that ability is not hard to execute at all and gives the opponent a huge disadvantage which he can't avoid in most defensive situations.
Also revert the splash nerf of Widow Mines to make them somewhat viable against Zerg again.
If I had to choose on of the proposed thoughts, I'd go with the morph upgrade, making bio upgrades cheaper is a really lackluster approach...
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On April 30 2014 18:52 SC2Toastie wrote:
What about increasing the receeding speed of creep? IF you kill a huge field, it still takes minutes to go away, if that'd happen faster, Terran could push on more easilly.
This is something I was hoping blizzard would have done during WoL BL/Infestor era. The standard 6 queen opening gave zerg crazy creep spread and it felt terran could never clear it effectively.
I still think it is something Blizzard should consider.
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On April 30 2014 09:16 HelloSon wrote:
Option 1:
- Terran infantry level 2 upgrade costs down from 175/175 to 150/150.
- Terran infantry level 3 upgrade costs down from 250/250 to 200/200.
An idea from the depths of hell!
Given how amazingly well infantry upgrades scale against buildings, this would just allow medivac drops to focus fire a hatchery/nexus/OC and destroy it even faster, without worrying about any static defence or almost anything else there.
If anything, I'd rather see the upgrades get a little stronger and then a buff to something else that affects bio troops, although not any sort of direct buffs to marines or marauders. -__-
Option 2:
- Remove the transformation servos upgrade.
- Allow Hellions to transform to Hellbats when Hellbats are enabled with the armory.
Yeah, sure, we don't see much of them any more thanks to the combination of the two changes.
Nerfed (previously) hellbats but with the ability to transform with just an armoury does seem like the best option that comes to mind to buff terran. This might help Mech vs Protoss ever so slightly too.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On April 30 2014 20:35 Frex wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:52 SC2Toastie wrote:
What about increasing the receeding speed of creep? IF you kill a huge field, it still takes minutes to go away, if that'd happen faster, Terran could push on more easilly. This is something I was hoping blizzard would have done during WoL BL/Infestor era. The standard 6 queen opening gave zerg crazy creep spread and it felt terran could never clear it effectively. I still think it is something Blizzard should consider.
Different races are different. Thats the unique feature of the Zerg race. And if you want to make creep to receede quicker, then give us creep-upgrade in lategame, or give overlord creep spread at tier1 with Evolution Chamber.
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On April 30 2014 20:35 Frex wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:52 SC2Toastie wrote:
What about increasing the receeding speed of creep? IF you kill a huge field, it still takes minutes to go away, if that'd happen faster, Terran could push on more easilly. This is something I was hoping blizzard would have done during WoL BL/Infestor era. The standard 6 queen opening gave zerg crazy creep spread and it felt terran could never clear it effectively. I still think it is something Blizzard should consider.
Yeah, the now-common usage of decent creep spread gives Zerg a HUGE comfort zone, that paired with Overlord spread gives Zerg players huge amounts of time spotting aggression early and reacting accordingly (let's not talk about the Zerg army gaining huge value while fighting on creep).
While I know it requires rather good mechanics to maintain that aggressive creep spread, there should be more efficient methods to deny creep IMO.
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On April 30 2014 20:41 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 09:16 HelloSon wrote:
Option 1:
- Terran infantry level 2 upgrade costs down from 175/175 to 150/150.
- Terran infantry level 3 upgrade costs down from 250/250 to 200/200.
An idea from the depths of hell!Given how amazingly well infantry upgrades scale against buildings, this would just allow medivac drops to focus fire a hatchery/nexus/OC and destroy it even faster, without worrying about any static defence or almost anything else there.
Sorry, but did you even think before writing this? Lowering the cost of upgrades changes nothing to the amount of damage bio deals...
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On April 30 2014 20:42 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 20:35 Frex wrote:On April 30 2014 18:52 SC2Toastie wrote:
What about increasing the receeding speed of creep? IF you kill a huge field, it still takes minutes to go away, if that'd happen faster, Terran could push on more easilly. This is something I was hoping blizzard would have done during WoL BL/Infestor era. The standard 6 queen opening gave zerg crazy creep spread and it felt terran could never clear it effectively. I still think it is something Blizzard should consider. Different races are different. Thats the unique feature of the Zerg race. And if you want to make creep to receede quicker, then give us creep-upgrade in lategame, or give overlord creep spread at tier1 with Evolution Chamber.
But you do see the difference between having almost complete map vision as long as tumors are spread and having to scan for one small area (which is also temporarily - detection capabilities not considered in this case)?
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In a way i like the idea of cutting down upgrade prices since the protoss has chronoboost to get them faster then why would terran not have his own tweak to be a little faster too ?
But maybe it would be unfair to zergs.
Also the upgrade has always been bull, removing it would be a great idea !
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On April 30 2014 20:43 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 20:41 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:On April 30 2014 09:16 HelloSon wrote:
Option 1:
- Terran infantry level 2 upgrade costs down from 175/175 to 150/150.
- Terran infantry level 3 upgrade costs down from 250/250 to 200/200.
An idea from the depths of hell!Given how amazingly well infantry upgrades scale against buildings, this would just allow medivac drops to focus fire a hatchery/nexus/OC and destroy it even faster, without worrying about any static defence or almost anything else there. Sorry, but did you even think before writing this? Lowering the cost of upgrades changes nothing to the amount of damage bio deals...
Dont waste your time Mr. Downfall. Whats your opinion on these 2 proposed changes? Do you think the transformation upgrade could make a difference?
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On April 30 2014 18:59 gingerfluffmuff wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:54 FFW_Rude wrote:On April 30 2014 18:50 c0olL wrote:
It took a half year, 13 premier tournaments with no Terran winner in a row with only two runner ups, two seasons of Code S with 3 or 4 Terrans for them to understand that TvZ and TvP are slightly in favor for the non Terran race. I wonder how much time it will take them to understand that its not just slightly, its greatly!
#1 - i don't see it helping the Terrans. its not touching the core problems of TvP, and seems that in TvZ it will only help Terrans who got hit on their eco and cant afford this upgrades otherwise. the problem is that lake of AOE for the T to deal with the swarm of the zerg (this MU was balanced until they nerfed the mine)
#2 - this might help vs roach all ins, but i don't that this is the solution. if you can't scout it its your problem. its not like the zerg can hide their tech so easly and has tons of possibles all ins like the P that the Terran need a buff to stop them,
Terrans need their AOE back. helping them out by removing options from the zerg will only make the game less entertaining.
I'm sorry but this MU wasn't balanced with the old mines. It was a fucking invisible Brood War tank in SC2. As a NON pro players, mines were REAAAALLLLYYY hard to deal with. On April 30 2014 18:52 SC2Toastie wrote:
What about increasing the receeding speed of creep? IF you kill a huge field, it still takes minutes to go away, if that'd happen faster, Terran could push on more easilly. That could be an idea too. The further it is from a tumor the faster it receeds ? Could be that creep spread a little less by tumor ? Storm and Colossi are also hard to deal with for NON pros. Also DRG showed the way with his bane splits.
That's very true. But colossus and templar aren't cloacked and need to fire from a long distance. Mines shoot from short distance. You see them, you hope you react as quick as possible 
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I don't really understand how the hellbat change could change much in TvP honestly. I like the change but I wonder if it will change much in TvP.
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Northern Ireland25742 Posts
I'm no DWF but I could definitely see the meatier Hellbat form help out vs pesky Roach/Bane builds, while not sacrificing the map control gained by the standard reaper/hellion opener
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The terran upgrade firesale continues....
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On April 30 2014 19:16 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 18:54 FFW_Rude wrote:
I'm sorry but this MU wasn't balanced with the old mines. It was a fucking invisible Brood War tank in SC2. As a NON pro players, mines were REAAAALLLLYYY hard to deal with. That's the attitude that gave us a game where we can't see someone like Flash outmakro a slightly lesser pro gamer. The game should not be balanced around non pro gamers, in fact game balance should completely ignore the problems/opinions etc. pp. of non pro gamers. Mines were starting to get figured out on a pro level, just as mutas zvz began to get figured out when they overbuffed spores. Blizzard is continuing to fuck this game up, partially because the fundamental design has a lot of flaws that make it really hard to balance around (free units, forcefields etc.) and partially because they keep nerfing/buffing things as they get figured out on a pro level. Stop rolling the dice on some weird unnecessary changes, hots is full of them. Roach burrow movement, hydra attack speed, spore massive over buff, oracle speed/acceleration buff and warp prism speed buff. Just stop already and let progamers figure out these problems. We'll never see anyone dominate the game for more than a few months when the game just keeps on changing and changing. If you feel like you have to change all the time maybe address the issue that the entire economy system of star 2 still has small maps and 15-20 minute games in mind. It should make sense to take more than 3 bases for other purposes than having more gas geysers.
I know that you are kind of right (kind of). But if normal people can't play the game because it's too hard. They lose interest. If they lose interest, why watch ? It's a tricky situation really. I'm not trying ot be an ass. I'm just trying to talk about this (and broken english doesn't help :p)
There's lot of different opinions even in the pro scene of what should or should not be done. It's hard to have a list in mind of all the possibilities.
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On April 30 2014 20:46 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 20:42 Existor wrote:On April 30 2014 20:35 Frex wrote:On April 30 2014 18:52 SC2Toastie wrote:
What about increasing the receeding speed of creep? IF you kill a huge field, it still takes minutes to go away, if that'd happen faster, Terran could push on more easilly. This is something I was hoping blizzard would have done during WoL BL/Infestor era. The standard 6 queen opening gave zerg crazy creep spread and it felt terran could never clear it effectively. I still think it is something Blizzard should consider. Different races are different. Thats the unique feature of the Zerg race. And if you want to make creep to receede quicker, then give us creep-upgrade in lategame, or give overlord creep spread at tier1 with Evolution Chamber. But you do see the difference between having almost complete map vision as long as tumors are spread and having to scan for one small area (which is also temporarily - detection capabilities not considered in this case)?
I don't see why. Do you know that an aggressive scan of Terran can kill a huge area of creep tumors - which still means nothing because the creep will remain for 3 more minutes?
T1 creep spew will easily become OP with roaches / expo denial / wall denial.
I'm fine with a nerf to creep spread and a hive upgrade to make creep stronger again!
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ZvP
This matchup may have shifted slightly in-favor of Zerg recently.
Why you think this? I see a lot of Korean Sc2 and Toss all time wins this matchup in early and in lategame.
If the zerg plays Mass muta it can only work if the zerg have 6 or 7 base eco.
Other one imba Tossball voids colloss hightemplar is unstoppable.
i never have seen a zerg can win vs this ball.
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On April 30 2014 20:51 gingerfluffmuff wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 20:43 TheDwf wrote:On April 30 2014 20:41 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:On April 30 2014 09:16 HelloSon wrote:
Option 1:
- Terran infantry level 2 upgrade costs down from 175/175 to 150/150.
- Terran infantry level 3 upgrade costs down from 250/250 to 200/200.
An idea from the depths of hell!Given how amazingly well infantry upgrades scale against buildings, this would just allow medivac drops to focus fire a hatchery/nexus/OC and destroy it even faster, without worrying about any static defence or almost anything else there. Sorry, but did you even think before writing this? Lowering the cost of upgrades changes nothing to the amount of damage bio deals... Dont waste your time Mr. Downfall. Whats your opinion on these 2 proposed changes? Do you think the transformation upgrade could make a difference?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/449468-balance-status-update-4-29-14?page=12#237
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On April 30 2014 20:57 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 20:51 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On April 30 2014 20:43 TheDwf wrote:On April 30 2014 20:41 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:On April 30 2014 09:16 HelloSon wrote:
Option 1:
- Terran infantry level 2 upgrade costs down from 175/175 to 150/150.
- Terran infantry level 3 upgrade costs down from 250/250 to 200/200.
An idea from the depths of hell!Given how amazingly well infantry upgrades scale against buildings, this would just allow medivac drops to focus fire a hatchery/nexus/OC and destroy it even faster, without worrying about any static defence or almost anything else there. Sorry, but did you even think before writing this? Lowering the cost of upgrades changes nothing to the amount of damage bio deals... Dont waste your time Mr. Downfall. Whats your opinion on these 2 proposed changes? Do you think the transformation upgrade could make a difference? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/449468-balance-status-update-4-29-14?page=12#237
Is Downfall what it stands for or is he just making that up?
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On April 30 2014 20:58 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 20:57 TheDwf wrote:On April 30 2014 20:51 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On April 30 2014 20:43 TheDwf wrote:On April 30 2014 20:41 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:On April 30 2014 09:16 HelloSon wrote:
Option 1:
- Terran infantry level 2 upgrade costs down from 175/175 to 150/150.
- Terran infantry level 3 upgrade costs down from 250/250 to 200/200.
An idea from the depths of hell!Given how amazingly well infantry upgrades scale against buildings, this would just allow medivac drops to focus fire a hatchery/nexus/OC and destroy it even faster, without worrying about any static defence or almost anything else there. Sorry, but did you even think before writing this? Lowering the cost of upgrades changes nothing to the amount of damage bio deals... Dont waste your time Mr. Downfall. Whats your opinion on these 2 proposed changes? Do you think the transformation upgrade could make a difference? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/449468-balance-status-update-4-29-14?page=12#237 Is Downfall what it stands for or is he just making that up?
There's a clue in my signature. (:
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EPT
