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On April 30 2014 22:50 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:39 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:35 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:21 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:20 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 21:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 21:54 TW wrote:
I diidn't look at the nr of viewers for Code S today, but wonder if there is a difference between the group with T and without them.
You don't have to wonder about that, it's clear that tons of viewers don't tune in for PvPvZvPvZvZ And I turned off DreamHack once all the Protoss were out. I can't imagine I was the only one. So what..? Ok, good to know! Sadly, it happens to a lot more tournaments that all Terrans go out, than all Protoss going out. Well, since you initially spoke about GSL, I'm pretty sure that the GSL numbers are where they are because the previous map-pools have been quite heavily Blink favoured. The maps were designed before two-base Blink all-ins became a thing and that showed. It's going to take a while for that to equalise now that the maps aren't disastrously bad for Terran vs. Blink all-ins. Aside from Blink, I don't see (and have not seen) any convincing arguments that point to something specifically imbalanced about Protoss or Zerg... not that I would claim to understand TvZ enough to judge! How much more convincing do you want, with both winrates being near 45% WHILST the representation is bordering 15%-20%...? Aligulac is down for me right now, but I know that the last time I looked the winrates were not at 45%. If you're cherry-picking data from GSL only then I'm not interested in discussing that  Representation (I assume you mean GSL numbers) will take seasons to sort out, and the seasons are hardly short. It took a while for GomTvT to sort itself out even after Terran became balanced. Remember? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9sWlBGg.png) Here you are. Also, with only 8 players in Code S and Code A being openly accesible, it should sort out kinda fast. This season, it stayed the same. Like I said before, I wouldn't claim to understand TvZ enough to judge what impact these changes would have on that match-up. I don't get the impression that upgrades are a big problem for Terran though, so I don't think that will make much difference. Hellbats are something I'd like to see more of personally, but I don't know anything about how good MMMHellbat is compared to 4M.
Well, it isn't good. The only thing it could do is make for an easier mech transition, and it might open up a very powerful attack with the 6/8 hellions you make early game. With the 1/1 push, instead of 6/8 hellions there can be 6/8 hellbats, which are a lot more powerful in a straight up fight.
The upgrade buff is rubbish, unnecessary and covers nothing.
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On April 30 2014 22:54 t0ssboy wrote:
As a BW player,i really miss Khaydarin Amulet.Bring it back please!.
Funny how there's always that guy.
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On April 30 2014 22:54 t0ssboy wrote:
As a BW player,i really miss Khaydarin Amulet.Bring it back please!.
Oh god no :0!
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On April 30 2014 22:36 matthy wrote:
i can't understand while they say "they try to buff mech TvP" they constantly come up with ideas that buff bio even more while in all matchups Terran bio is strongly over present. Goths, mines, and now this Nr #1 option.
Gotta reiterate what you posted, i've said it a million times as well. Dkim is continually willing to buff bio repeatedly, even the last patch remember they buffed the ghost claiming to help mech lol.
It'd be nice for mech TvP for tanks to not suck :D
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Northern Ireland25749 Posts
On April 30 2014 22:55 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 22:50 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:39 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:35 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:21 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:20 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 21:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 21:54 TW wrote:
I diidn't look at the nr of viewers for Code S today, but wonder if there is a difference between the group with T and without them.
You don't have to wonder about that, it's clear that tons of viewers don't tune in for PvPvZvPvZvZ And I turned off DreamHack once all the Protoss were out. I can't imagine I was the only one. So what..? Ok, good to know! Sadly, it happens to a lot more tournaments that all Terrans go out, than all Protoss going out. Well, since you initially spoke about GSL, I'm pretty sure that the GSL numbers are where they are because the previous map-pools have been quite heavily Blink favoured. The maps were designed before two-base Blink all-ins became a thing and that showed. It's going to take a while for that to equalise now that the maps aren't disastrously bad for Terran vs. Blink all-ins. Aside from Blink, I don't see (and have not seen) any convincing arguments that point to something specifically imbalanced about Protoss or Zerg... not that I would claim to understand TvZ enough to judge! How much more convincing do you want, with both winrates being near 45% WHILST the representation is bordering 15%-20%...? Aligulac is down for me right now, but I know that the last time I looked the winrates were not at 45%. If you're cherry-picking data from GSL only then I'm not interested in discussing that Representation (I assume you mean GSL numbers) will take seasons to sort out, and the seasons are hardly short. It took a while for GomTvT to sort itself out even after Terran became balanced. Remember? Here you are. Also, with only 8 players in Code S and Code A being openly accesible, it should sort out kinda fast. This season, it stayed the same. Like I said before, I wouldn't claim to understand TvZ enough to judge what impact these changes would have on that match-up. I don't get the impression that upgrades are a big problem for Terran though, so I don't think that will make much difference. Hellbats are something I'd like to see more of personally, but I don't know anything about how good MMMHellbat is compared to 4M. Well, it isn't good. The only thing it could do is make for an easier mech transition, and it might open up a very powerful attack with the 6/8 hellions you make early game. With the 1/1 push, instead of 6/8 hellions there can be 6/8 hellbats, which are a lot more powerful in a straight up fight. The upgrade buff is rubbish, unnecessary and covers nothing.
Slightly better defensively off of standard TvZ hellion - bio vs things like Roaches too I'd imagine, not sure though
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On April 30 2014 22:54 t0ssboy wrote:
As a BW player,i really miss Khaydarin Amulet.Bring it back please!.
If we remove colossus then I am fine with this.
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4713 Posts
On April 30 2014 17:46 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 17:39 Destructicon wrote:
I don't see the upgrade cost changing much in TvZ. Terrans going bio could already afford them easily without sacrificing units and could get a upgrade lead over zergs anyway. The issues is that bio vs zerg doesn't seem to be able to compete any more given that WM where nerfed and siege tanks just aren't an appropriate alternative.
And despite a really strong 2 months or so of testing and trying mech by a lot of pro gamers, it seems a lot of them have come to the inevitable conclusion that, mech still has massive flaws in its gameplay that are easily exploited, so they gave up on it.
The change might actually help TvP where gas is a issue when building an army with bio + vikings + ghosts while trying to not fall behind toss in terms of upgrades. However it doesn't really address the real issue of terrans still having a really hard time hitting any early timings because of how strong defense is, or not having any stronger transition in the late game, or having a hard time closing out the game.
The removal of transformation servos is a good idea and is possibly the most impactful of the new changes. The reason being that terrans could possibly hit some new timings in all MUs. Weather it be for drops or just pushes, and particularly in TvZ, if said timings are strong enough to force a more defensive reaction from the zerg, then it could mean they can't drone as hard and terran could enter the mid game with more of an advantage, maybe enough to be on even footing. However it, again, won't address the mid and late game problems where bio just doesn't trade well any more against ling, bling muta.
Overall I give a big yes to the transformation servos upgrade, a big no to the upgrade change, and a really big sigh to the entire patch idea. I dunno, it feels like Blizzard doesn't know how to actually fix the real issues here. This is a dumb remark from me but... Why do Terrans continues to try to early push when it's absolutly impossible to do damage. Maybe it's a bad analogy but when Oov revolutionized Terrans, the vultures he made where kept in his base rather than harassing. And because of that he always had more units on defense to take an earlier base. So why don't completly give up on the early timings and solidify the laters ? I want to see what people say about that. Also Destructicon, keep in mind that Balance is affecting every player on the planet, that it requires tests and whatnot. We don't know what they test internally. They may already have tried all of what was suggested and it didn't work. This game is great. balance is not really that broken (but yes it might need of few tweeks). They made great games, they'll made great patch. Remember that in BW at some point Terrans had 90% WR on some maps, then SaviOr came and won convingcibly on those maps. SC2 is still young. KEEP IN MIND. I AM NOT INSTIGATING A BW VS SC2 MATCH. NOR A SAVIOR DISCUSSION. What the... If you want to talk about that, i want the planet cracker back, and the infinite time neural parasite.
Because zerg becomes much, much harder to handle if you leave it alone for too long. Due to larva mechanics the zerg can setup a really strong economy and then use that economy to explode into a super strong army really quickly, or to tech to hive.
Thus its really, really important for both terran and protoss to keep zerg economy in check somehow. A lot of the toss build have some kind of pressure built in just to slow down the zerg. Even the most turtly of toss style still includes some form of harass.
Comparing BW to SC2 isn't accurate. In SC2 there are tons more pro gamers and information sharing is way easier. Thus SC2 is easier to figure out and has been figured out way faster then BW, not only that but the games are vastly different, the unit interactions and unit design in general means that the games are almost as different as night and day. Also SC2 isn't as young any more, its reaching into its 5th year of life. A repeat of what Savior did in BW is extremely unlikely to happen in SC2. Big changes in SC2 have either happened after big balance changes or map changes.
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On April 30 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 22:39 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:35 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:21 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:20 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 21:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 21:54 TW wrote:
I diidn't look at the nr of viewers for Code S today, but wonder if there is a difference between the group with T and without them.
You don't have to wonder about that, it's clear that tons of viewers don't tune in for PvPvZvPvZvZ And I turned off DreamHack once all the Protoss were out. I can't imagine I was the only one. So what..? Ok, good to know! Sadly, it happens to a lot more tournaments that all Terrans go out, than all Protoss going out. Well, since you initially spoke about GSL, I'm pretty sure that the GSL numbers are where they are because the previous map-pools have been quite heavily Blink favoured. The maps were designed before two-base Blink all-ins became a thing and that showed. It's going to take a while for that to equalise now that the maps aren't disastrously bad for Terran vs. Blink all-ins. Aside from Blink, I don't see (and have not seen) any convincing arguments that point to something specifically imbalanced about Protoss or Zerg... not that I would claim to understand TvZ enough to judge! How much more convincing do you want, with both winrates being near 45% WHILST the representation is bordering 15%-20%...? Aligulac is down for me right now, but I know that the last time I looked the winrates were not at 45%. If you're cherry-picking data from GSL only then I'm not interested in discussing that Representation (I assume you mean GSL numbers) will take seasons to sort out, and the seasons are hardly short. It took a while for GomTvT to sort itself out even after Terran became balanced. Remember? Here you are. Also, with only 8 players in Code S and Code A being openly accesible, it should sort out kinda fast. This season, it stayed the same.
Thanks for the image!
While it does point in a direction, the statistics is a bit on the low side. :o)
+ Show Spoiler [some stats] +The one-sided p-value for the TvZ result from a true win-rate of 50% is 0.87 (http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx). And that is assuming independent games, which is really isn't, so true p-value is larger, probably by quite a bit, if you would take that into account.
Two sided p-value (balance can go either way) give 1.7%, and with multiple hypothesis testing (we got three matchups), the adjusted p-value for independent games goes to around 5%.
In other words, we see that kind of numbers more than one week in twenty, even with an exact 50% balance, which for some reason usually is the limit people use.
Is it possible to get the stats over a bit longer time, say a month or two? That should probably give enough power to detect a 5% imbalance. Thanks.
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wow about ZvT and THAT suggestion for T upgrades...
Between >T has already 3-3 and zerg hasn't started hive< (happens about 80% of all games) is the most imbalanced space of time in ZvT until zerg has 3-3, then zerg is slightly better than terran.
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On April 30 2014 10:01 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Removing Transformation Servos is a good idea, the upgrades never really used and whenever an ability or research is never used that's probably a sign something should (or at least can) be changed.
Cheapening the upgrades seems incredibly minor (yay 50/50 less, it's like conc shells is free now!) but I'm not one to pass up terran buffs.
I agree. I mean, the upgrade reduction can't possibly be BAD for Terran, but it doesn't seem like it will make a big difference. You can build what... an extra Reaper now? I guess Terran can use that Reaper to scout for allins trolololololol.
But I support the Hellion change. I agree that being able to save those initial Hellions is going to help T a bit. I'm a big advocate of Marines + Hellbats vs Z (it's how I play all my TvZs when I offrace).
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On April 30 2014 23:13 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 22:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:39 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:35 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 22:21 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 22:20 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 30 2014 21:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 30 2014 21:54 TW wrote:
I diidn't look at the nr of viewers for Code S today, but wonder if there is a difference between the group with T and without them.
You don't have to wonder about that, it's clear that tons of viewers don't tune in for PvPvZvPvZvZ And I turned off DreamHack once all the Protoss were out. I can't imagine I was the only one. So what..? Ok, good to know! Sadly, it happens to a lot more tournaments that all Terrans go out, than all Protoss going out. Well, since you initially spoke about GSL, I'm pretty sure that the GSL numbers are where they are because the previous map-pools have been quite heavily Blink favoured. The maps were designed before two-base Blink all-ins became a thing and that showed. It's going to take a while for that to equalise now that the maps aren't disastrously bad for Terran vs. Blink all-ins. Aside from Blink, I don't see (and have not seen) any convincing arguments that point to something specifically imbalanced about Protoss or Zerg... not that I would claim to understand TvZ enough to judge! How much more convincing do you want, with both winrates being near 45% WHILST the representation is bordering 15%-20%...? Aligulac is down for me right now, but I know that the last time I looked the winrates were not at 45%. If you're cherry-picking data from GSL only then I'm not interested in discussing that Representation (I assume you mean GSL numbers) will take seasons to sort out, and the seasons are hardly short. It took a while for GomTvT to sort itself out even after Terran became balanced. Remember? Here you are. Also, with only 8 players in Code S and Code A being openly accesible, it should sort out kinda fast. This season, it stayed the same. Thanks for the image! While it does point in a direction, the statistics is a bit on the low side. :o) + Show Spoiler [some stats] +The one-sided p-value for the TvZ result from a true win-rate of 50% is 0.87 (http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx). And that is assuming independent games, which is really isn't, so true p-value is larger, probably by quite a bit, if you would take that into account.
Two sided p-value (balance can go either way) give 1.7%, and with multiple hypothesis testing (we got three matchups), the adjusted p-value for independent games goes to around 5%.
In other words, we see that kind of numbers more than one week in twenty, even with an exact 50% balance, which for some reason usually is the limit people use. Is it possible to get the stats over a bit longer time, say a month or two? That should probably give enough power to detect a 5% imbalance. Thanks.
It's easy to get longer periods, just grab Aligulac periods (this one is 109, the previous one is: http://aligulac.com/periods/108) but Aligulac is down currently.
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On April 30 2014 23:15 Dingodile wrote:
wow about ZvT and THAT suggestion for T upgrades...
Between >T has already 3-3 and zerg hasn't started hive< (happens about 80% of all games) is the most imbalanced space of time in ZvT until zerg has 3-3, then zerg is slightly better than terran.
And what do you suggest? That 3/3 timing is all of a sudden active for 5 more minutes?
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On April 30 2014 22:54 t0ssboy wrote:
As a BW player,i really miss Khaydarin Amulet.Bring it back please!.
Now we can all agree that the BW way to do is OP thanks to warpgates, however Blizzard also felt removing was much better than even trying to have it give you less extra energy, have it increase max energy or even have it increase energy regeneration.
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I would really like them to buff some underused units like thor, banshee, nydus, corrupors, carriers, mb hydras, mb phoenix, mb ravens. I really think that it is more important that games are diverse (and like 95% balanced) than that they are 100% balanced. I dont care about 5% (overall) imbalance at all tbh.
On April 30 2014 23:29 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 22:54 t0ssboy wrote:
As a BW player,i really miss Khaydarin Amulet.Bring it back please!. Now we can all agree that the BW way to do is OP thanks to warpgates, however Blizzard also felt removing was much better than even trying to have it give you less extra energy, have it increase max energy or even have it increase energy regeneration.
Bw Khaydarian didnt allow you to storm immediately, so it is far from being as powerful. That being said i just see no reason why it should be implemented, it's not interesting imo, it's just a lategame balance change that we dont need atm.
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The way I see it the problem in TvZ is:
With the widow mine splash reduction and the muta buff Terran is a bit lacking in splash damage or is too immobile vs. ling bane muta.
I think removing the transformation servos requirement rewards players who are able to preserve their first few hellions with a bit more splash damage in the midgame to help them out, so it's positive. Whether or not that's enough to make a difference remains to be seen.
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On April 30 2014 23:15 Dingodile wrote:
wow about ZvT and THAT suggestion for T upgrades...
Between >T has already 3-3 and zerg hasn't started hive< (happens about 80% of all games) is the most imbalanced space of time in ZvT until zerg has 3-3, then zerg is slightly better than terran.
Please, there is nothing imbalanced when terran is one set of upgrades ahead. Zerg is still perfectly capable of trading effectively against bio as of now, actually lately there has been many games where 2/2 muta ling bane is more cost-effective than 3/3 MMMM.
Zergs have also started to get upgrades quite early lately so I have seen multiple games where zerg is ahead in upgrades. The reason why they can do this is that maps are larger and WM is weaker, so they can get away with more than before when terran is trying to do their ~10 minute push.
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Servos change is much needed. Hellions are nice early and mid game vs all match ups, but you never want to overdue it since most Terran skipped the servo upgrade and just put that money into Blue Flame and Hellbats.
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4713 Posts
On April 30 2014 23:31 DinoMight wrote:
The way I see it the problem in TvZ is:
With the widow mine splash reduction and the muta buff Terran is a bit lacking in splash damage or is too immobile vs. ling bane muta.
I think removing the transformation servos requirement rewards players who are able to preserve their first few hellions with a bit more splash damage in the midgame to help them out, so it's positive. Whether or not that's enough to make a difference remains to be seen.
Its really small though and it will act more as a buff to a timing. Reason being that bio styles usually want to trade a lot, so while retaining the initial 6-8 hellions helps the first push it does nothing on the follow ups. What it does theoretically do is make zergs play more defensive to not take damage from these pushes. If the zerg plays more defensive there is a small possibility he won't be as far ahead in eco and the terran enters the mid game on better footing.
There are a lot of ifs in that series of arguments though. It could very well wind up to do nothing once zergs find the most optimal way to defend against that particular push while still getting a solid eco.
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On April 30 2014 23:32 Frex wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2014 23:15 Dingodile wrote:
wow about ZvT and THAT suggestion for T upgrades...
Between >T has already 3-3 and zerg hasn't started hive< (happens about 80% of all games) is the most imbalanced space of time in ZvT until zerg has 3-3, then zerg is slightly better than terran. Please, there is nothing imbalanced when terran is one set of upgrades ahead. Zerg is still perfectly capable of trading effectively against bio as of now, actually lately there has been many games where 2/2 muta ling bane is more cost-effective than 3/3 MMMM.
the economy should be included in the term "cost-efficiency" as a denominator sort of - the normalizing factor. In that sense zerg is almost always trading cost-efficiently, which is wrong. Takes a major fuck up on zerg's side/huge mine hit for terran to really gain momentum afterwards.
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Sigh.
The reason pro players are giving that feedback about TvP is because they're using the new units, the new buffs, and the new maps to their full potential. The new maps have thirds that are incredibly difficult for Protoss to defend and a lot more open mains which makes drop defense a lot more difficult. In addition, the shorter rush distances and high ground chokes on maps like Overgrowth, Waystation and Merry Go Round make it simultaneously harder to break Mech as well as easier to push out while using Mech. I can say as a former Random player and now Protoss who has played since the WoL Beta, this is by far the toughest map pool for Protoss that I can remember.
Many of the more casual players that continue to use straight-up Bio with none of the new buffed mines, no tank support, and without abusing the wide-open drop paths are still losing more often than not because they're still doing the same thing they have been for so long. It's not Blizzard's job to bludgeon Terrans over the head with buffs to try and force outdated, one-dimensional styles to work, but with the recent WM buff and these proposed buffs, that's what they seem hell-bent on doing. The players need to figure out what options their race has for themselves and it's their fault if they don't - it's what got told to Protoss players who were having a ridiculously hard time (and still are) with Mutalisks.
Give it time, Blizz. The season just started.
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EPT
