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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On June 30 2014 20:54 klup wrote:I wonder if making hellbat non biological to remove the bonus dmg of banelings wouldn't be a better benefit than being able to be healed by medivac. Would also help in TvP against Archons (so against mass Zealot/Archon) btw, because those also do +dmg to bio. I wouldn't mind them being not healed anymore. You can still repair them. | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
On June 30 2014 20:58 SC2Toastie wrote: Banelings do bonus verse light, not verse Biological. Then making them armored :D . It's true forgot that baneling do crap vs roaches  . | ||
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RuFF_SC2
United States203 Posts
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helius788
New Zealand74 Posts
On June 30 2014 20:54 klup wrote: As many poster above suggest, can we just discuss the evidence/examples provided by the OP and try to discuss if the concerns are legit or exagerated? Or will you guys just discuss 30+ pages of the tone of the article? For me , what is most concerning regarding TvZ is the mass baneling phenomenon. As TheDwf mentionned in the OP , a current strategy that is more and more common in the pro game I watched last month is the ridiculous amount of banelings Z make and reach the critical mass of having more baneling than marines and just roll over the terran army in what seems to be before that , a close and back and forth game. There is a point in TvZ where if Z make that rolling army there is simply not anymore a strong viable counter to that. This is for me the one concern in TvZ. I wonder if making hellbat non biological to remove the bonus dmg of banelings wouldn't be a better benefit than being able to be healed by medivac. Or as suggested theDwf rebuff the mine to a close state to the original one I agree. For TvZ, I think the widow mine needs to be buffed back. That would make bio a lot more viable. In regard of TvP: Photon Overcharge costs 150 Mana? MSC costs more? MSC building time increase? | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
About this post i think the dword really need to edit for make this more constructive like Issue Argument Change proposition | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On June 30 2014 21:01 helius788 wrote: I agree. For TvZ, I think the widow mine needs to be buffed back. That would make bio a lot more viable. In regard of TvP: Photon Overcharge costs 150 Mana? MSC costs more? MSC building time increase? Somebody mentioned reducing overcharge damage verse bio as to not affect PvP, the most common argument in favor of Overcharge. Also, Time Warp is much more damaging to the state of fights than people seem to notice. I'd prefer a state in which Mothership core abilities need a Cybercore research (preferably distinguishable), so Protoss need to decide whether to get safety by overcharge, mobility via recall, a versatile spell in time warp or aggressive power through warpgate | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On June 30 2014 20:17 Topdoller wrote: I stand corrected, i thought degrees in the USA take about 3 years to complete, thank you I don't want to assume too much but I don't think Polt went to UT to study a subject, but I think (from what I remember from interviews) he went to study English at UT. I know at Michigan we had similar programs where there were exchange students from other universities that did 1-2 semesters of just English studying. Since he was only there for a year, and I think in some interviews he said he went to study English, he probably was doing those programs which is not nearly as intensive as a normal degree. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On June 30 2014 21:07 SC2Toastie wrote: Somebody mentioned reducing overcharge damage verse bio as to not affect PvP, the most common argument in favor of Overcharge. Also, Time Warp is much more damaging to the state of fights than people seem to notice. I'd prefer a state in which Mothership core abilities need a Cybercore research (preferably distinguishable), so Protoss need to decide whether to get safety by overcharge, mobility via recall, a versatile spell in time warp or aggressive power through warpgate That is a very sound suggestion. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On June 30 2014 20:54 klup wrote: As many poster above suggest, can we just discuss the evidence/examples provided by the OP and try to discuss if the concerns are legit or exagerated? Or will you guys just discuss 30+ pages of the tone of the article? For me , what is most concerning regarding TvZ is the mass baneling phenomenon. As TheDwf mentionned in the OP , a current strategy that is more and more common in the pro game I watched last month is the ridiculous amount of banelings Z make and reach the critical mass of having more baneling than marines and just roll over the terran army in what seems to be before that , a close and back and forth game. There is a point in TvZ where if Z make that rolling army there is simply not anymore a strong viable counter to that. This is for me the one concern in TvZ. I wonder if making hellbat non biological/armored to remove the bonus dmg of banelings wouldn't be a better benefit than being able to be healed by medivac. Or as suggested theDwf rebuff the mine to a close state to the original one That's how TL balance people are, when they have nothing to contribute or are backed into a corner, they whine about the tone and how they're going to lose respect for TeamLiquid and how there shouldn't be any place for anything like this. IMO I think making mines back to what they were like, and maybe a faster thor would help in TvZ and a reverted oracle speed w/ maybe a higher energy requirement for PO so it can't be cast in two places at once + early pushes can actually do some damage. | ||
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KTP_TV
France42 Posts
Stim takes 170 seconds and thus is complete at 8'25. If the Stim nerf was reverted, it would be done at 7'55. At what timing does 2-bases Blink complete, at the very earliest? Around 8'. Case closed. Not only about the blink play. But overall, considering to decrease the stim research time could be a really really good thing. - What would it change ? More : early timings, aggressive play. And a little push to help terran defend strong early timings. - Is there a downside of it ? Right now, protoss and zergs have a lot of tool to deal with early pressure from terran, it's been brought to attention that Z and P can play a rather greedy play and get away with it. Thus I can't think of a bad thing to do so. - What about TvT ? It would obivously make bio more powerfull vs mech, given the fact mech received a lot of buff, mech vs bio in TvT is totally viable. So I guess it would not break the match up and bring it back to bio vs bio only. I don't see any downside to such a buff (or a nerf revert actually). The fact that the increased stim research time is now completely outdated seems very true to me now that I think about it. Any opinion on this ? Maybe i'm missing something, I'd love to hear from anyone else with maybe more insight/understanding of the game. Edit: maybe in TvZ, the hellion/banshee/stim marauders would be a bit too good, I don't know. | ||
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MChrome
Netherlands201 Posts
On June 30 2014 20:34 gTank wrote: Was about to report that guy but someone was faster than me. Was a good read (didn't watch all the vods), main reason I switched to Z in sc2 (still play terran in bw). Yes I am only a gold player, but it still feels way easier to play as Z than as T. It is a bit whiney but you can't deny the fact that something is wrong. And I strongly doubt that there will be a change soon :/ I actually noticed this recently myself. I will never switch race (again) from Terran, but i occasionally play a bout as Zerg and it's extremely disheartening to see that i can just do whatever and win vs gold and plat opponents, whereas i really have to concentrate to stay above silver as Terran... Obviously i'm not qualified to make deep comments about balance, but at my level (roughly gold-ish) it feels like both Zerg and Protoss are far, far easier to play than Terran. Banelings and Storm alone are responsible for most of my losses (i just can't react quickly enough yet), which is frustrating at the very least. As Zerg i can just mostly a-move across the map, but as Terran i have to constantly be aware of which units are where, a good concave, proper position on the map and having units to defend a drop if need be. | ||
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Bishopine
Germany3 Posts
Zerg and especially Protoss figure out new strats and timings which make them more viable and unpredictable. Terrans on the other hand play standard and... thats it! If it isnt a gold float on Habitation Station or a proxy 2-raxx there´s nothing Terran do these days to surprise their opponents. Get creative instead of whining. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On June 30 2014 21:26 Bishopine wrote: Terran is fine as it is. WM had to be nerfed (against mass zealots) as well as Hellbats 2-shoting workers. Zerg and especially Protoss figure out new strats and timings which make them more viable and unpredictable. Terrans on the other hand play standard and... thats it! If it isnt a gold float on Habitation Station or a proxy 2-raxx there´s nothing Terran do these days to surprise their opponents. Get creative instead of whining. Please enlight us with some creative builds that pros never think of doing. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
Just wanted to the "this doesn't belong on tl" argument. Since some time now, tl is commercial, in the sense that their goal is to get clicks on their ads. And for that, this article is doing a wonderful job! You could argue that it is a bit of a sell out, but I don't think this article will hurt future tl revenue in any way. So well done tl, on publishing a thesis on balance that is guaranteed to bring a lot of clicks to your site. | ||
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KTP_TV
France42 Posts
On June 30 2014 21:26 Bishopine wrote: Terran is fine as it is. WM had to be nerfed (against mass zealots) as well as Hellbats 2-shoting workers. Zerg and especially Protoss figure out new strats and timings which make them more viable and unpredictable. Terrans on the other hand play standard and... thats it! If it isnt a gold float on Habitation Station or a proxy 2-raxx there´s nothing Terran do these days to surprise their opponents. Get creative instead of whining. Typical answer that is terrible at every point. First : it's false, two : it actually resolves nothing, without any argument, it's just : "try to find some way, because of course you didn't". Do you watch pro league ? I think it's the best place when it comes to players that prepare a match, and a specific strategy according to the opposite player and/or map. No, terrans don't always play the exact same play that you call "standard", that is not true. The real question is : if they always play the same way since so much time, what could be the reason ? I have a really simple one for you, when they try something new it sometimes work, and gets figured out, then they retreat to the not so viable but still best macro play available in their arsenal. "But it's how starcraft works, it's strategy, when something new comes, it works and then gets figured out, you have to make your play evolve" you say ? Yeah that's right, but what happens when terran timings gets figured out almost every time while the opposite is not true ? (early game options in PvT for example are not completely figured out, as explained in this article), that may be an underlying problem in balance or design. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On June 30 2014 21:33 Cascade wrote: Didn't make it all the way through, sorry. Just to long, and I think I got the point. Just wanted to the "this doesn't belong on tl" argument. Since some time now, tl is commercial, in the sense that their goal is to get clicks on their ads. And for that, this article is doing a wonderful job! You could argue that it is a bit of a sell out, but I don't think this article will hurt future tl revenue in any way. So well done tl, on publishing a thesis on balance that is guaranteed to bring a lot of clicks to your site. Since it was more a decision of TLStrategy to post this article instead of TLMarketing, I doubt it was a clic bait, sorry. I just think most of TL mods are aware of some balance issue with the current game, and after DwF sent them this gem, they decide that they can post it here (mainly because DwF can't post >100k words post too). It might and probably will have an impact of future SC2 patches too. They just want a more fair game, and a more fair game will attract many more users than a simple clicbait article. | ||
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Terence Chill
Germany112 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
For instance, although interesting at first glance, this : On June 29 2014 19:48 TheDwf wrote: ![[image loading]](/staff/ZeromuS/Strategy/ZPcraft/10.jpg) ![[image loading]](/staff/ZeromuS/Strategy/ZPcraft/11.jpg) means absolutely nothing and is not relevant, it's the win rate that is important not the raw numbers. What we would have needed to see is : - number of KR vs foreigner games per match up including the mirrors (cause if the win rate is the same whatever the race of the opponent, it just means terrans foreigner are simply strugling against KR) - number of win for foreigner in each match up - a relevant statistical analysis that answer the question : is the win rate significantly lower when the foreigner is a terran and is facing a Zerg or a Protoss? To really prove anything meaning full we need to select competitions with a level of skill high enough, get all match results after last patch (I don't think the data you used are relevant, if we're talking about balance, better stay on the current version of the game to avoid bias) put them in a statistics software and run some real tests. I don't mean TheDwf is wrong, I just mean that numbers needs to be handled with care | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On June 30 2014 20:54 klup wrote: As many poster above suggest, can we just discuss the evidence/examples provided by the OP and try to discuss if the concerns are legit or exagerated? Or will you guys just discuss 30+ pages of the tone of the article? "Hey guys, lets ignore the fact that the entire OP was incredibly condescending and insulting and made a lot of people annoyed and talk about what's in it. Because it shouldn't matter how offensive someone is when they provide lots of backing to their points." Sorry but people just don't work like that, as I detailed about twenty pages ago. You don't change anyone's mind or convince anyone you have a point by yelling at them that they're bad and should feel bad. You don't get anyone on your side by setting it up as "them and us". Regardless of whether or not there's a decent point in the OP (although I think you'd find it hard to come up with a convincing argument why there isn't), the tone entirely sets the scene for how any discussion or follow-up will go. And its nowhere good, as is self-evident here. The arguing and bile following on from it is full of utter nonsense and yet tons of people are overlooking that in favour of yelling at each other some more. | ||
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Disciple7seveN
France28 Posts
Or maybe we should coin another term that would ironically be more apt in describing your posts... balance whine-whining. Not as catchy but keep doing it and I'm sure it'll catch on. Crazy props to TheDwf for putting into a well explained and fact-backed article what Terrans have been feeling for quite some time... I hope blizz reads this and gives us an actual new expansion in LotV otherwise we'll still be stuck on WoL like we are now... | ||
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