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I spent the last two days basically watching VODs and reading through this article. I gave quite a raged opinion before in this thread, so let me re-try, this time on a constructive level.
First things first: so much #passion deserves a medal. Seriously - why ever would you put so much obvious effort in an article about a game, including the potential "u suck balance whine ded game" answers that might potentially be in those comments, too?
In my opinion, the main reason for Terran being weak is Protoss.
+ Show Spoiler [Don't get me wrong!] +Not that Protoss has OP units (one can debate about colossus range, forcefields, warp gate tech and storm, but this is not what I want to do here), but rather has so many options in his gameplay. The protoss, whose playstyle once was turtling into deathball, is completely free to do whatever he likes versus Terran, dictating the pace of the game quite heavily.
While ZvT remains in a balanced state, the terran, a race that is considered to be the most flexible and fast-paced race, can play out this diversity in only one matchup, which is TvT. Then comes ZvT, since mech is viable, and even solid timings, delayed thirds and cheeses are playable. Terran does have an arsenal.
But, when it comes down to TvP - what can the Terran do to seriously dictate the pace of the game?
a) Combat Shield/Stim timings - shut down by Photon Overcharge.
b) One base cheeses - shut down by Photon Overcharge.
c) Two base play - shut down by scouting. No way to beat a protoss (with Photon Overcharge and either charge/blink/colossi/double forge) on two bases. SCV pulls are seriously weakened by the missing power of the third mule.
d) Aggressive midgame - basically see c). If that aggressive style occurs from 2 bases, it's allin(-ish). Do damage or die to a turtling, high-tech-units amassing protoss.
e) 3base timings: a timing without SCVs will result in a fight where Protoss takes the defender's advantage. With decent observer placements and solid defensive play, the Protoss should hold your attack.
f) 3base timings: a timing with SCVs - fails mostly vs blink/colossus. Or colossus. Or storm. It's more of a coinflip than an actual decent all-in strat.
So - Progamers will mostly think of those questions before a game:
a) What can I do best that does not put me automatically behind?
b) What can my opponent do best?
(c) What can I/my opponent do on that specific map?)
Thinking of a), the "does not put me automatically behind" component of the sentence will make most terrans play straight up standard, maybe a bit greedy, either way: reactionary. There's no way for a terran to force his tactic onto the Protoss in an efficient way, not without taking the heavy risk of simply losing.
Following that logic, a player will consider "oh, what can my opponent do?" And here we go.
+ Show Spoiler [Options] +
One base cheeses:
- Fourgate (weak)
- Blink (weak)
- DT (considerably strong)
- Stargate (strong)
Two base allins:
- Blink (strong)
- Mass gateways
- Immortal bust
- DTs (via prism?)
Two base semi-allins/harassment options:
- Stargate (strong)
- DT (strong)
- Colossus timings
- Zealot/Archon w/o or into storm
Straight up play:
- fast 3rd (depends on map)
- Collossus tech into third
- Double forge into third
So, considering those options, a Terran will rely heavily on scouting what is coming towards his face. So he scans, and there are three possibilities:
a) Hit the point of interest with the scan in the face. "Take that, DT shrine, I know what's coming!"
b) Hit the point of interest with the scan - and miss: "Oh, a Twilight Council! Wait - blink or DT? Or is there a double forge and greedy upgrades somewhere?" Guess wrong - die. Or, you invest in a second scan. Another 300 bucks for potentially nothing.
c) Miss. You're fucked.
(d - going full Creator and proxying the shit out of the map - well, possible, but seldomly played)
And even if it is scouted - you do not know if it really comes towards your face. Or if there is a sudden third base building. Or a tech switch incoming. Or another allin.
TL;DR
The combination of a coinflip scout (scan) and a lack of possibilities to take initiative forces Terran to only react vs. Protoss. Actively pushing for timings comes at high risks and is rather allin-ish.
Suggestions: revert oracle speed and mine nerf, while lowering the range of the overcharge for 1-3. Bow to thedwf for putting such an effort in it.
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Northern Ireland24946 Posts
On June 30 2014 20:50 Tanzklaue wrote:
i think one big thing to improve balancing would be that blizzard starts admitting that some of their changes done in the past were simply bad. as it stands, they buff/nerf something, realize it was too harsh a buff/nerf, but instead of revisiting the buff/nerf they devised, they try to fix the unit by doing something completely unrelated to the nerf, which obviously doesn't help too much.
another thing is that the hellbat and the widow mine finally were units that terran could use without needing to babysit them all the time and micro them perfectly to do anything with them. it made terran play more forgiving, and in turn increased the skill protoss and zerg needed to dispatch these things. terran NEEDS some units that are efficient without being micro'd by living gods among men.
Would be great if the Oracle speed buff was taken down, a change even most Protoss players aren't big fans of.
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While balance is always up for debate i think this proves beyond question which race is the hardest.
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United Kingdom978 Posts
On June 30 2014 21:26 Bishopine wrote:
Terran is fine as it is. WM had to be nerfed (against mass zealots) as well as Hellbats 2-shoting workers.
Zerg and especially Protoss figure out new strats and timings which make them more viable and unpredictable. Terrans on the other hand play standard and... thats it! If it isnt a gold float on Habitation Station or a proxy 2-raxx there´s nothing Terran do these days to surprise their opponents. Get creative instead of whining.
Here's the thing, Terran CAN'T get creative. I'm a Protoss player and even I can see this. Terran are incredibly rigid in how their armies have to be composed compared to P and Z, that's how they were designed and that's honestly the main issue here.
Protoss have the most viable tech options but honestly, imo we can't tech switch too well just because of the unit cost, especially gas wise.
Zerg, again lots of tech options, very easy to switch tech as they see fit.
Terran, pretty much have 2 tech options. Bio or Mech. Mech is pretty terrible against P so that leaves them with bio.
The thing with T is, bio is a composition that is relatively cheap to make, consisting of mostly t1 units in the form of marines with Marauders and Medivacs. Add stim into that and marines are actually stupidly cost effective for what they are.
A Marine costs 50 minerals, stim is 100/100 and can be researched as soon as a tech lab is made and then combat shield is a further 100/100 on top of that. Meaning T can build up a relatively cheap army early on and do a lot of damage once Marauders and Medivacs are on the field, especially from the Medivac healing.
As for those who say P should have to research MSC spells, I very much disagree. Protoss already has a ton of tech that needs researching, if the MSC spells are really such an issue which honestly, they could be. Then I don't see why certain spells (time warp and recall) can't be locked until certain tech structures are down.
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Bring the warhound back and make the anit-air a research option 
Or is there a solution at all?
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On June 30 2014 21:58 KatatoniK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 21:26 Bishopine wrote:
Terran is fine as it is. WM had to be nerfed (against mass zealots) as well as Hellbats 2-shoting workers.
Zerg and especially Protoss figure out new strats and timings which make them more viable and unpredictable. Terrans on the other hand play standard and... thats it! If it isnt a gold float on Habitation Station or a proxy 2-raxx there´s nothing Terran do these days to surprise their opponents. Get creative instead of whining. Here's the thing, Terran CAN'T get creative. I'm a Protoss player and even I can see this. Terran are incredibly rigid in how their armies have to be composed compared to P and Z, that's how they were designed and that's honestly the main issue here. Protoss have the most viable tech options but honestly, imo we can't tech switch too well just because of the unit cost, especially gas wise. Zerg, again lots of tech options, very easy to switch tech as they see fit. Terran, pretty much have 2 tech options. Bio or Mech. Mech is pretty terrible against P so that leaves them with bio. The thing with T is, bio is a composition that is relatively cheap to make, consisting of mostly t1 units in the form of marines with Marauders and Medivacs. Add stim into that and marines are actually stupidly cost effective for what they are. A Marine costs 50 minerals, stim is 100/100 and can be researched as soon as a tech lab is made and then combat shield is a further 100/100 on top of that. Meaning T can build up a relatively cheap army early on and do a lot of damage once Marauders and Medivacs are on the field, especially from the Medivac healing. As for those who say P should have to research MSC spells, I very much disagree. Protoss already has a ton of tech that needs researching, if the MSC spells are really such an issue which honestly, they could be. Then I don't see why certain spells (time warp and recall) can't be locked until certain tech structures are down.
Because doing that really locks protoss down in possibilities again.
Allowing them to be researched means Protoss gets to make a decision. The fact you already have upgrades is not an argument against introducing some more.
If anything, this game needs more decisions and choices.
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On June 30 2014 22:11 Ctone23 wrote:Bring the warhound back and make the anit-air a research option Or is there a solution at all?
There is a shit ton of solutions available. A shit ton.
MSC : Make twilight required/Reduce range of Overcharge/Time of Timewarp/Time of Overcharge
Mutas : Reduce Regen ability.
Roaches : Good question, but all in all I think this unit need to be deleted or redesign at LotV since its a most boring unit with fun at all.
HTs : Storm cost 100/FB cost 75/HT cost 100/150 instead of 50/150 /Storm deal 80 damage over 6 instead of 4s.
WMs : up it by a bit (not like old WM but a middle between old and new.
Thors : Smaller and maybe a bit faster.
DTs : Bring the fucking cost back to what it was in WoL omg.
Oracles : Bring back old speed please.
Tanks : Make them deal more damage but with much slower attack maybe (same dps overall).
I don't know, there is so much that can be done to tweak the game in the right way. Just pick a couple here and I'm pretty sure the game will be good to play and watch again.
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On June 30 2014 14:53 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 14:24 DinoMight wrote:
The front page of TL is no place for thedwf's balance whine. Let him write that crap in the balance discussion section as he has been doing forever.
Sure, he put a lot of work into the piece, and there are a lot of links to games and statistics etc. that "prove" his point. But at the end of the day, it's not written like a research paper. It's written like balance whine.
I'm disappointed TL would features such an article on its front page. It wouldn't be a Balance topic without the great DinoMight chiming in with the most general blanket statements of why an argument is invalid.
I guess now I just have a reputation I need to maintain or something? Read my post please. I didn't say his argument was invalid. I said it was written like balance whine. The tone of the article has an extreme Terran bias and therefore makes it hard to read objectively.
He could have written all the same things without sounding like a whiny Terran player and people (myself included) would take it a lot more seriously. In that case I wouldn't mind having it posted on the front page of TL, since it's actually a very long detailed article with lots of references and supporting videos.
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On June 30 2014 22:20 Faust852 wrote:
Tanks : Make them deal more damage but with much slower attack maybe (same dps overall).
Doesn't this just make them weaker against Immortals than they are now? Or do you mean for TvT/TvZ (and not build them vs P anyway).
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On June 30 2014 22:21 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 14:53 Chaggi wrote:On June 30 2014 14:24 DinoMight wrote:
The front page of TL is no place for thedwf's balance whine. Let him write that crap in the balance discussion section as he has been doing forever.
Sure, he put a lot of work into the piece, and there are a lot of links to games and statistics etc. that "prove" his point. But at the end of the day, it's not written like a research paper. It's written like balance whine.
I'm disappointed TL would features such an article on its front page. It wouldn't be a Balance topic without the great DinoMight chiming in with the most general blanket statements of why an argument is invalid. I guess now I just have a reputation I need to maintain or something? Read my post please. I didn't say his argument was invalid. I said it was written like balance whine. The tone of the article has an extreme Terran bias and therefore makes it hard to read objectively. He could have written all the same things without sounding like a whiny Terran player and people (myself included) would take it a lot more seriously. In that case I wouldn't mind having it posted on the front page of TL, since it's actually a very long detailed article with lots of references and supporting videos.
You should look at the definition of editorial.
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I'd be okay with time warp being a 50/50 upgrade at the Cyber core or something. Like concussive shell is for Terran.
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On June 30 2014 22:23 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 22:20 Faust852 wrote:
Tanks : Make them deal more damage but with much slower attack maybe (same dps overall).
Doesn't this just make them weaker against Immortals than they are now? Or do you mean for TvT/TvZ (and not build them vs P anyway).
It was an idea without deep thinking. But since tank are useless as fuck in TvP anyway, you should just not make them.
Tank would be more effective against Z and T when they are hesitant about engaging and less when they are certain of their attack. Anyway it was just a proposition without deep thinking but imho tanks need to be revampe anyway, they are too shitty now. Too strong in TvT, useless in TvZ and TvP.
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On June 30 2014 22:21 DinoMight wrote:He could have written all the same things without sounding like a whiny Terran player and people (myself included) would take it a lot more seriously.
Sorry, but as soon as someone writes something like "X is too strong/weak", it's considered as whine by said people, regardless how detailed the reasoning or explanation is.
It's an article about a race being UP. What do you expect? There are some exaggarations inside that are meant to be funny (I guess). Without them it would be boring and hard to read.
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On June 30 2014 22:23 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 22:20 Faust852 wrote:
Tanks : Make them deal more damage but with much slower attack maybe (same dps overall).
Doesn't this just make them weaker against Immortals than they are now? Or do you mean for TvT/TvZ (and not build them vs P anyway).
For TvZ mainly. Immortals are supposed to counter mech, its fine if they blow vs them.
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On June 30 2014 22:29 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 22:21 DinoMight wrote:He could have written all the same things without sounding like a whiny Terran player and people (myself included) would take it a lot more seriously. Sorry, but as soon as someone writes something like "X is too strong/weak", it's considered as whine by said people, regardless how detailed the reasoning or explanation is. It's an article about a race being UP. What do you expect? There are some exaggarations inside that are meant to be funny (I guess). Without them it would be boring and hard to read.
It's also how TheDwf types. No matter how it happens though, I agree with you - someone is gonna see the balance "whine" and ignore 99% of the good work that he put into it. Sorry the tone doesn't agree with you DinoMight, but that's how editorials and opinions go. Look beyond that and look at what he's saying and the proof he gives with it.
TheDwf basically has said what every Terran has been thinking and arguing for the last few months, but now he's put it in a place where there's VoDs and actual progaming proof on what's happening on the scene.
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On June 30 2014 22:32 Dreamer.T wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 22:23 DinoMight wrote:On June 30 2014 22:20 Faust852 wrote:
Tanks : Make them deal more damage but with much slower attack maybe (same dps overall).
Doesn't this just make them weaker against Immortals than they are now? Or do you mean for TvT/TvZ (and not build them vs P anyway). For TvZ mainly. Immortals are supposed to counter mech, its fine if they blow vs them.
I think that's also an issue too. There are so many hard counters in this game it ends up being Oh you have X? I make Y. You have A? I make B. If we look at TvP, if you don't make Vikings vs Collossi, you are going to lose. If you don't make Ghosts vs Templar, you are going to lose. These massive hard counters make the game incredibly stale and predictable. Not even just that, Terran will always have the hardest time adapting simply because of how stupidly rigid production is. Even if I scout Collossi, I can't just warp in Vikings nor can I make 10 of them at a time.
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On June 30 2014 22:29 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 22:21 DinoMight wrote:He could have written all the same things without sounding like a whiny Terran player and people (myself included) would take it a lot more seriously. Sorry, but as soon as someone writes something like "X is too strong/weak", it's considered as whine by said people, regardless how detailed the reasoning or explanation is. It's an article about a race being UP. What do you expect? There are some exaggarations inside that are meant to be funny (I guess). Without them it would be boring and hard to read.
It's not funny, it's just whiny. I read an equally long article on Savior written by someone else that didn't have any of that sarcasm in it and found the whole thing very interesting.
"Mines are underpowered post nerf because XYZ, links to VODs" is not whine.
"OMG SOO can literally take his hands of the keyboard and a-move his army" is balance whine
Sometimes if you want to be taken seriously you have to speak/act a certain way. This is why you wear a suit to a job interview. And it's why you don't write articles with that tone.
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I personally believe terran just needs more tech options like Zerg or Protoss, but it seems like pulling a fix like this off would take a lot of redesigning which I'm sure Blizzard isn't too interested in doing at this point.
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I have mixed feelings really. I haven't played SC2 since 2013, but this is just my opinion as a (fairly regular) viewer:
I think Blizzard did a lot right with Protoss in HotS. It's much more exciting and diverse than WoL. PvP in particular is a lot better now, but I also appreciate the Oracle's harass, the MSCore offering a nice defensive option (not too sure about timewarp though) and how the Tempest adds something to the lategame. Maybe some balance needs to be looked at, but I think Protoss is in a decent place from a design perspective.
Zerg is okay. Infestors are in a better place now, and vipers are interesting, and its great to see ling/bling/muta see so much use, as it is exciting. But roaches are just awful. They ruin ZvZ, and they are just awful to watch in general. Swarmhosts were interesting, I think they need a change in reflection upon the super-late games but its not so bad, particularly in PvZ.
I think Blizzard really messed up with Terran though. Mines were interesting, and exciting, but they don't have the same impact in the game anymore. Hellbats were also extremely dynamic - slightly imbalanced (at the start) perhaps, but they improved the game. The medivac change was good for the game also, but it just seems, unless you're Taeja, that Terran is completely crippled for viable options nowadays. TvZ isn't so bad, but I think TvP needs to be looked at. I'd imagine either a ghost buff, or something targeted at early game Terran aggression would help (messing with stim, or perhaps a unit build time).
I wonder what the warhound would add :p (I'm joking obviously)
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Just remove warp mechanic, make the protoss more chronoboost oriented, make the gateway units good, remove colossus and put other 'Manual micro'' unit (something like the reaver), remove smart-cast from the game, and please, gosh remove the fucking immortal, yeah, rework the whole robo tree, with the exception of the observer and the shuttle.
About the MSC: if there is no warp-in and the gate units are actually good, why would we need this?
This would make the protoss MUCH harder and actually stronger, rewarding a better player much more.
Instead of the void-ray i think we should get an medium-mobility shooting thingy that does a small bonus against armored.
Tempest are... halfway... fine? i don't know, neeed some opinion on this since i only use tempests on PvP and on ULTRA-BLASTER-DIGIMON-Late game on PvT.
Carriers , just reduce the building time and make it microable like BW one.
Oracle should just get a speed nerf
On TvZ, just revert the widow mine nerf, and redude the current muta regen, pretty much thats it.
On making mech working vs protoss side of things, if the above things happened, mech would fine, because you would not have to deal with immortals ^^
I think that the chronoboost is such a cool mechanic, with a cool decision making oriented use, reward smarter players and blizzard should explore it by making it of paramount importance like inject for zerg players.
these are my toughts on it, dunno if any is anywhere near good or something, im just a diamond protoss player that enjoy more manual stuff and less automatic use.
aaaaaand i miss the arbiter with stasis on tank lines, damn, it was so cool @-@
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EPT
