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On June 30 2014 20:08 SmileZerg wrote:
Wait, wait, hold up, stop the vehicle... someone is complaining that the race which dominated the SC2 scene for the majority of its lifespan, has always had the most tools and builds at its disposal, and regularly filled 5-7 out of the top 8 slots in GSL seasons enough times that it codified the moniker GomTvTvTvT, is too hard to play now because a couple of the new units added in HotS got nerfed?
Did you read the OP?
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Calling all players unable to attribute changes to the game only shows your skill / understanding level of the game. You can't just say everyone (incl. pro's) are simply too stupid to figure out an allin in TvP that actually works for example...
Exactly right, the reason I enjoy GSL and proleague far more than any WCS is simply because everyone is on TOP of their game.
When recent hellbat buff released, all terran players in GSL and proleague immediately use it to their advantage, making new hellbat timing possible. Soon after zerg players adapted to it by making defensive roach warren againts terran, when necessary.
This makes zerg players aware of such timing, which prevent zerg to be not so greedy in their opening. Which makes TvZ more balanced.
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On June 30 2014 18:44 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 16:59 EpidemicSC wrote:
This looks like it took an enormous amount of time to create but how is this featured?
I've been lurking this site for years and can't recall a time when some race whine was put on the front page.
Where was the novel when 20 something of the 32 places in GSL were Terran? Because it's not a whine post derp. The op of this thread has been writing and doing stuff on TL before it became mainstream. A well deserved spotlight on this site.
just because the op has been writing other things has absolutely NO effect on whether or not this is a whine post. it is 100% a whine thread about how terran is not strong enough anymore... it says nothing more then reasons why terran is "bad" it has lost my and many other liquid users respect for being front paged... but they also lost respect when they frontlined the bl infestor whine page. getting closer and closer to becomming leagues community full of "its never my own fault i lost a game attitude"
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So are we done with discussing the tone of the article now? I think everyone knows all the points. Maybe we can go on to discussing some of the examples and the overall arguments?
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On June 30 2014 20:08 SmileZerg wrote:
Wait, wait, hold up, stop the vehicle... someone is complaining that the race which dominated the SC2 scene for the majority of its lifespan, has always had the most tools and builds at its disposal, and regularly filled 5-7 out of the top 8 slots in GSL seasons enough times that it codified the moniker GomTvTvTvT, is too hard to play now because a couple of the new units added in HotS got nerfed?
Gosh, your comment made me smile XD
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On June 30 2014 20:06 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 19:58 FFW_Rude wrote:I read half of it and i just can't read more. The tone imployed is like a common balance whinner on those forums than a writer perspective. Sure there is a lot of research behind this but the way it is written is just non enjoyable to read. Maybe because as a low Z player i'm just baffled by the old mine and HBD that could vanish 50supply instantanously. Maybe that's way. Gratz on your article though. But i just can't read through it cause of the cynical tone  And Zergs can literally a move through mines. 2 banelings can destroy 50 supply worth of marines easily as well, if you don't split constantly, or take a bad engagement on creep especially, banelings will wreck your day. The WM change was never needed because balance should be decided by the BEST players, which is not your experience or my experience on ladder, but by what's happening at the highest levels of play. The best players had already adapted to it, and still the WM change comes and makes every Terran's life hell. Show nested quote +
Last time i checked Polt has been a part time player for almost 2 years, and i would fully expect him to get beat by a full time professional, no matter what race they played
The fact still Polt dominates outside of Korea is a testament to the fact that outside of Korea the standard is not good at all so i really wish people wouldn't use him as an example of balance tbh.
I cant think of any modern sport where a top pro would get beat by an amateur( no matter how talented he is),those days are long gone.
You should check more recently. He's been a full time player for about or more than a year already.
I stand corrected, i thought degrees in the USA take about 3 years to complete, thank you
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On June 30 2014 20:10 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 20:08 SmileZerg wrote:
Wait, wait, hold up, stop the vehicle... someone is complaining that the race which dominated the SC2 scene for the majority of its lifespan, has always had the most tools and builds at its disposal, and regularly filled 5-7 out of the top 8 slots in GSL seasons enough times that it codified the moniker GomTvTvTvT, is too hard to play now because a couple of the new units added in HotS got nerfed? Did you read the OP?
No dude, sorry, I don't have time to read through an effing fortress of text of a butthurt Terran player whining about his race, which has historically wiped the floor with the other two since this game launched, being underpowered. Particularly since I don't care too much about SC2 and its relatively awful design in general when I can play Starbow now.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 30 2014 20:18 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 20:10 Heartland wrote:On June 30 2014 20:08 SmileZerg wrote:
Wait, wait, hold up, stop the vehicle... someone is complaining that the race which dominated the SC2 scene for the majority of its lifespan, has always had the most tools and builds at its disposal, and regularly filled 5-7 out of the top 8 slots in GSL seasons enough times that it codified the moniker GomTvTvTvT, is too hard to play now because a couple of the new units added in HotS got nerfed? Did you read the OP? No dude, sorry, I don't have time to read through an effing fortress of text of a butthurt Terran player whining about his race, which has historically wiped the floor with the other two since this game launched, being underpowered. Particularly since I don't care too much about SC2 and its relatively awful design in general when I can play Starbow now.
Then you really have no right to just shitpost like that, I'm sorry. Either ignore it if you don't want to read it, or don't read it. But just assuming things and then posting about it drags down the thread.
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3632 Posts
On June 30 2014 20:08 SmileZerg wrote:
Wait, wait, hold up, stop the vehicle... someone is complaining that the race which dominated the SC2 scene for the majority of its lifespan, has always had the most tools and builds at its disposal, and regularly filled 5-7 out of the top 8 slots in GSL seasons enough times that it codified the moniker GomTvTvTvT, is too hard to play now because a couple of the new units added in HotS got nerfed?
Buhu Terran was so strong back on Xel Naga Caverns in early 2011, they need to be banished from competitive play till Legacy of the void.
Seriously. How is this an argument? What terrans can't complain about balance, because they used to be the strongest race 3 years ago? By that logic no race can complain ever again, because zergs and tosses had their spell of dominance now. (and they were just as bad if not worse)
Also it's funny how everyobdy acts like Toss/Zergs did not complain all the time back when they felt underpowered.
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it s a good read actually. As a Zerg player in SC2, I would jsut like to mention that there is almost no way to beat a T that reaches the Viking/raven comp...
As for the storm, as a former BW P player, the SC2 strom isn't that critical. It hurts of course, but in BW a Zerg could instalose 15+hydras to a well placed storm (not to mention storm drops on workers), the problem is the nice combo with time warp (as you stated) and collo
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Wait, wait, hold up, stop the vehicle... someone is complaining that the race which dominated the SC2 scene for the majority of its lifespan, has always had the most tools and builds at its disposal, and regularly filled 5-7 out of the top 8 slots in GSL seasons enough times that it codified the moniker GomTvTvTvT, is too hard to play now because a couple of the new units added in HotS got nerfed?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_League
Terran only dominate in 2011.
2010, 2012, 2013 and 2014 are all about zerg and protoss.
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The amount of work the author put in this is titanic. The details, the arguments, the facts, the references, the research, the time, the proof-read, the sheer number of words (its more than most of us write during high school for fuck's sake) are mind-numbing... if you stop to think about it.
On the other side, the amount of effort needed to read all the editorial before posting whatever went through our amateur gamer mind (regardless of your opinion) is somewhat bigger than shaving your beard on a fine Friday morning.
It's sad to see the replies.
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On June 30 2014 20:20 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 20:18 SmileZerg wrote:On June 30 2014 20:10 Heartland wrote:On June 30 2014 20:08 SmileZerg wrote:
Wait, wait, hold up, stop the vehicle... someone is complaining that the race which dominated the SC2 scene for the majority of its lifespan, has always had the most tools and builds at its disposal, and regularly filled 5-7 out of the top 8 slots in GSL seasons enough times that it codified the moniker GomTvTvTvT, is too hard to play now because a couple of the new units added in HotS got nerfed? Did you read the OP? No dude, sorry, I don't have time to read through an effing fortress of text of a butthurt Terran player whining about his race, which has historically wiped the floor with the other two since this game launched, being underpowered. Particularly since I don't care too much about SC2 and its relatively awful design in general when I can play Starbow now. Then you really have no right to just shitpost like that, I'm sorry. Either ignore it if you don't want to read it, or don't read it. But just assuming things and then posting about it drags down the thread.
It is completely justified to post a negative opinion as long as its not racist, offensive and bla bla bla.
Regarding above mentioned post I'd say people have different styles: while one could politely state that the article is not accurate and misleading at times, other could simply say 'bullshit'. But result is all the same.
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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/13273137416?page=2#35
Psione wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions, Winks. The level of analysis and overall tone of your post is appreciated.
The frequency of balance changes is something that we get a lot of feedback on. There are some players who want us to update balance more frequently, and some players who would like us to update less frequently. As we've mentioned in the past, we feel that the player base needs time to adjust to balance changes and constant updating could lead to less progress in this area. That isn't to say we won't look to push for a balance update when we feel it's appropriate, only that we feel new changes need time to be explored before we can decide if further changes may be needed.
While we have no immediate plans for another balance test map, we've seen the ongoing discussion on Terran/Zerg/Protoss performance and we'll continue monitor and discuss these topics. The most recent balance update was a little over four weeks ago, and we feel that the effects of this update are still being explored. Additionally, with Season 3 starting soon we'll be introducing several new maps. As stated in your post, maps are linked to game balance, so it makes sense for us to wait and see how the new maps affect the match-ups.
The thoughts in this thread, and similar threads, are all being read and will be passed along and discussed. This is something we do on a consistent basis, and more detailed posts like these help promote interesting discussion on our end.
Thanks again, and please continue to share your thoughts.
TL;DR
Thanks for the effort and overwhelming evidence you put out. We're gonna sit and check in a couple of weeks!
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On June 30 2014 20:18 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 20:10 Heartland wrote:On June 30 2014 20:08 SmileZerg wrote:
Wait, wait, hold up, stop the vehicle... someone is complaining that the race which dominated the SC2 scene for the majority of its lifespan, has always had the most tools and builds at its disposal, and regularly filled 5-7 out of the top 8 slots in GSL seasons enough times that it codified the moniker GomTvTvTvT, is too hard to play now because a couple of the new units added in HotS got nerfed? Did you read the OP? No dude, sorry, I don't have time to read through an effing fortress of text of a butthurt Terran player whining about his race, which has historically wiped the floor with the other two since this game launched, being underpowered. Particularly since I don't care too much about SC2 and its relatively awful design in general when I can play Starbow now. User was temp banned for this post.
Was about to report that guy but someone was faster than me.
Was a good read (didn't watch all the vods), main reason I switched to Z in sc2 (still play terran in bw). Yes I am only a gold player, but it still feels way easier to play as Z than as T.
It is a bit whiney but you can't deny the fact that something is wrong. And I strongly doubt that there will be a change soon :/
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On June 30 2014 19:58 FFW_Rude wrote:I read half of it and i just can't read more. The tone imployed is like a common balance whinner on those forums than a writer perspective. Sure there is a lot of research behind this but the way it is written is just non enjoyable to read. Maybe because as a low Z player i'm just baffled by the old mine and HBD that could vanish 50supply instantanously. Maybe that's way. Gratz on your article though. But i just can't read through it cause of the cynical tone Of course that is my opinion.
Hehe shouldn't be surprised. But I was the same way and I haven't played the game in a long time.
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i think one big thing to improve balancing would be that blizzard starts admitting that some of their changes done in the past were simply bad. as it stands, they buff/nerf something, realize it was too harsh a buff/nerf, but instead of revisiting the buff/nerf they devised, they try to fix the unit by doing something completely unrelated to the nerf, which obviously doesn't help too much.
another thing is that the hellbat and the widow mine finally were units that terran could use without needing to babysit them all the time and micro them perfectly to do anything with them. it made terran play more forgiving, and in turn increased the skill protoss and zerg needed to dispatch these things. terran NEEDS some units that are efficient without being micro'd by living gods among men.
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On June 30 2014 20:08 SmileZerg wrote:
Wait, wait, hold up, stop the vehicle... someone is complaining that the race which dominated the SC2 scene for the majority of its lifespan, has always had the most tools and builds at its disposal, and regularly filled 5-7 out of the top 8 slots in GSL seasons enough times that it codified the moniker GomTvTvTvT, is too hard to play now because a couple of the new units added in HotS got nerfed?
Old habits die hard. Terran wasn't OP for more than a year. Post mid 2011 it was quite a nice game.
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As many poster above suggest, can we just discuss the evidence/examples provided by the OP and try to discuss if the concerns are legit or exagerated? Or will you guys just discuss 30+ pages of the tone of the article?
For me , what is most concerning regarding TvZ is the mass baneling phenomenon. As TheDwf mentionned in the OP , a current strategy that is more and more common in the pro game I watched last month is the ridiculous amount of banelings Z make and reach the critical mass of having more baneling than marines and just roll over the terran army in what seems to be before that , a close and back and forth game.
There is a point in TvZ where if Z make that rolling army there is simply not anymore a strong viable counter to that. This is for me the one concern in TvZ.
I wonder if making hellbat non biological/armored to remove the bonus dmg of banelings wouldn't be a better benefit than being able to be healed by medivac. Or as suggested theDwf rebuff the mine to a close state to the original one
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On June 30 2014 20:54 klup wrote:
As many poster above suggest, can we just discuss the evidence/examples provided by the OP and try to discuss if the concerns are legit or exagerated? Or will you guys just discuss 30+ pages of the tone of the article?
For me , what is most concerning regarding TvZ is the mass baneling phenomenon. As TheDwf mentionned in the OP , a current strategy that is more and more common in the pro game I watched last month is the ridiculous amount of banelings Z make and reach the critical mass of having more baneling than marines and just roll over the terran army in what seems to be before that , a close and back and forth game.
There is a point in TvZ where if Z make that rolling army there is simply not anymore a strong viable counter to that. This is for me the one concern in TvZ.
I wonder if making hellbat non biological to remove the bonus dmg of banelings wouldn't be a better benefit than being able to be healed by medivac. Or as suggested theDwf rebuff the mine to a close state to the original one
Banelings do bonus verse light, not verse Biological.
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EPT
