EPTA reaper opening would be similar scary shit like 6 min 2oracle BZZZT attack. Oh and if found the reaper could kill the fucking pylon, not sent a msg to home base like "Did you see that? Got us sum Turrets Chief ? No well BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ"
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
A reaper opening would be similar scary shit like 6 min 2oracle BZZZT attack. Oh and if found the reaper could kill the fucking pylon, not sent a msg to home base like "Did you see that? Got us sum Turrets Chief ? No well BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ" | ||
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
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nonlamer
Thailand322 Posts
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
You could then give protoss the nexus cannon and zergs hitting 3-3 would be offset | ||
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Nnoitra
Portugal7 Posts
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
I think sc2 is a little too fast paced for it's own good, and it's own balance. Very small things can just outright win the game or snowball out of control. You have to constantly scout and it's pretty common to hide tech or to use ambiguous openers. Parting comes to mind, he has a quite a few builds that all have 1 identical opening, miss a small scouting window or get a scout denied somewhere, GG. While this article points out many symptoms and suggests some of the underlying causes, I feel that it is the pace of macro and the huge power spikes that occur from certain techs that is the underlying issue. Crono,warpgates,larva inject, and mules, make balancing this game impossible. The asymmetrical design of the races power curves in the matchups is bad, and I think calling it design is nonsense. I honestly don't believe the people behind sc2 were capable or knowledgeable enough in RTS's to produce 3 non mirror matchups that felt balanced in the different stages of the game. BW wasn't perfectly balanced, however the early/mid/late game of every matchup felt like it was very close to equal footing and was winnable by either side. There always seemed to be opportunities and enough time to outplay your opponent and get ahead by taking reasonable risks in each phase of the game. PvZ in bw (in my opinion) only looked or felt zerg favored in the earlish part of the mid game, when the 3+ hatches first kick in. There is just too much disparity between the cost effectiveness of the race's tech tiers in sc2, which forces almost every race in every matchup to try and bypass parts of the game. For example (harass units aside)early game terran has stim, protoss has force fields, zerg has .... ling speed? Mid game terran gets medevacs, protoss gets colossus, zerg gets......roach/hydra or infestors or mutas or swarmhosts. Late game, terran gets ? protoss has the synergy of templar, colossus, forcefields and MSC, zerg has broodlords, ultras. The races have these massive power spikes at certain points, gaping holes at others, and the ability to pretty much skip the parts of the game they don't want to play. Except for terrans who can't skip the late game. SC2 doesn't really feel like it has much of an early game. in zerg matchups the zerg is trying to skip to a maxed economy and 200 supply. Basically hit late game with hive and 3 saturated bases without really playing anything but part of the mid game. Terran's would love to play more of the early and mid game, but in pvz they can't really do shit against photon overcharge and against zerg they have to all but kill the zerg if they commit to any signifigant early aggression (not talking about harass of course) otherwise the zerg can just macro them into the ground. It's almost like the races all have to stay at home until they get their tier3/aoe/casters out, or all in. The risk vs reward seems poor. There are too many things that offer big rewards with very little risk.and too many things "given" to the player for picking each race (looking at you orbital command, queens, creep-spread, cronoboost, MSC) There is no decision involved, they are always good, pay for themselves and then some, and the sooner the better. There is no strategy, but these mechanics increase the pace of the game so much it limits options, strategies and depth. The final affect of these mechanics is making the game a balancing nightmare. In the end with regards to terran it is a situation of, if we make terrans able to do too much damage in the early or mid game, then the other races are forced to fight and get worn down at a time when they want to be greedy so they can get to their power spikes from economy and tech. If we make terran unable to do significant damage in the earlier phases then the other races go into late game unchallenged, where terran lack the powerful tier 3 tech from protoss or zerg, as well as lack the late game macro capabilities of the other races. In either circumstance someone feels like they are in an unfair situation. I think mules, cronoboost, and larva inject all need to be scaled back before rebalancing the units themselves is appropriate. This path I feel can not only improve balance, but make game-play more fun and interesting. | ||
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InVerno
258 Posts
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RaiKageRyu
Canada4773 Posts
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Clazziquai10
Singapore1949 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On June 30 2014 17:53 InVerno wrote: This article reminds me a lot LingsofLiberty, not only because of the lenght, the argument and the irony inside, but probably because for me its a reminder for the most basic lesson i've learned in these years of starcraft and still a lot of people are away to learn: percentages are pure shit. Even the childish argument "the hardest race" is far more intelligent and reality based than percentages, but the real problem aren't the mighty posters on TL, but the dev team who still believe and use percentages (at least on their PR side) for their internal decision making. I think bad percentages can be a symptom of a problem, but good percentages aren't indicative of a healthy scene. | ||
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Giding_man
10 Posts
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klup
France612 Posts
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On June 30 2014 14:24 DinoMight wrote: The front page of TL is no place for thedwf's balance whine. Let him write that crap in the balance discussion section as he has been doing forever. Sure, he put a lot of work into the piece, and there are a lot of links to games and statistics etc. that "prove" his point. But at the end of the day, it's not written like a research paper. It's written like balance whine. I'm disappointed TL would features such an article on its front page. Yap. Way too much salt in it for frontpage. "See scarlett played a game with 13minutes upgrade deficit and still won, prove done. job done." | ||
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Vogin
Czech Republic926 Posts
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InVerno
258 Posts
On June 30 2014 18:19 bluQ wrote: So much salt. Some parts tho are true. Yap. Way too much salt in it for frontpage. "See scarlett played a game with 13minutes upgrade deficit and still won, prove done. job done." Why this should be too much salt? I agree with others tellin this type of article will drive the community in toxins, but i don't think articles can be the origin of that toxic ambient, a catalyzer maybe, but what's the point of trying to slow a natural reaction to inefficiency? That's should be Blizzard PR work, not community sites work. You should be thankfull to posts like this or posts like the "patch analysis" (aka your balance test maps are shit) because are tryin to save the game you like standing a point none ever will stand for you if not community sites. | ||
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
On June 30 2014 18:06 Giding_man wrote: I couldn't keep a straight face while reading this (with avilo's voice, of course). hahahahahahaha this article is honestly just a QQ thread... the facts arent ridiculous but the interpretation of the facts are just exaggerated | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
On June 30 2014 18:22 Vogin wrote: Hardly anybody read full contents in the OP, at least put in spoilers or split it in more posts... Unfortunately TheDWF had to do this post this long, because otherwise same people would say "no evidence, no proof, it's only because terran left korea, terran have to adapt " same shit we heard for almost a year now. I think this post is a great ressource for balance discussion because it go through everything that is wrong with terran right now. I don't mind seeing this post bumped over the official balance discussion thread because here at least you have numbers/graph/replays and well thought analysis as a basis. | ||
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Moonsalt
267 Posts
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Jj_82
Swaziland419 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On June 30 2014 18:41 klup wrote: Unfortunately TheDWF had to do this post this long, because otherwise same people would say "no evidence, no proof, it's only because terran left korea, terran have to adapt " same shit we heard for almost a year now. I think this post is a great ressource for balance discussion because it go through everything that is wrong with terran right now. I don't mind seeing this post bumped over the official balance discussion thread because here at least you have numbers/graph/replays and well thought analysis as a basis. I read everything, lol. | ||
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