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On June 30 2014 16:59 EpidemicSC wrote:
This looks like it took an enormous amount of time to create but how is this featured?
I've been lurking this site for years and can't recall a time when some race whine was put on the front page.
Where was the novel when 20 something of the 32 places in GSL were Terran?
Because it's not a whine post derp. The op of this thread has been writing and doing stuff on TL before it became mainstream. A well deserved spotlight on this site.
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On June 30 2014 17:26 MrTortoise wrote:
It would be ok if terran was stronger vs protoss late game but weak vs zerg. Then it would be a racial weakness thing.
You could then give protoss the nexus cannon and zergs hitting 3-3 would be offset
Lemme just say that Ghost Viking heavy army vs Protoss in the lategame is fucking strong. Lategame IS quite challenging and unforgiving for Terran, but it has a lot of potential to unlock... perhaps more than Protoss.
I've played quite a few 25-60 minute games vs Terran recently where Terrans are splitting the map with PFs, sensor towers and turrets and it's incredibly hard to deal with. I played my GM teammate a lot in the last month and for the first few games I was able to hide Templars in clever spots around the map and get feedbacks/storms off by surprise and use that to cripple him, but now I CANNOT get a single feedback or storm off as he constantly scans, snipes and EMPs everything. I've actually stopped adding HTs to my Colossus ball because they're actually useless. It's really eye opening. Without transitioning to Tempest/Carrier or committing gigantic amounts of resources to deny his final expansions and going up to like 24+ gateways I feel like it's impossible to win a fight. Some Terrans have even transitioned to BC/Raven/Viking/Ghost and it's very capable of fighting off my air/HT army.
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On June 30 2014 17:55 RaiKageRyu wrote:
This was very well researched and most of his points are backed with data that can't be ignored. But make no mistake, there is definitely a healthy dose of bias and salt ridden with this post as well.
You see data where i see most of the time games that do not represent the meta of their times. The game has it's flaws, but picking up one game to prove a point is not right.
What if Kr terran players are just simply not as good as their Z and P counterparts?? Add that to the fact that most of the top terrans have left the GSL. Ofc you'll have trouble to fill this tournament with terrans if Taeja, Polt, Jjakji, Bomber, MMA, Ryung, Heart, Mvp etc. aren't there to compete.
I'm not denying protoss was strong early in the year. And i'm not denying that game design is not as good as it could be. But i seriously think Terran, at least at GM level, is not UP.
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On June 30 2014 18:54 Pino wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 17:55 RaiKageRyu wrote:
This was very well researched and most of his points are backed with data that can't be ignored. But make no mistake, there is definitely a healthy dose of bias and salt ridden with this post as well. You see data where i see most of the time games that do not represent the meta of their times. The game has it's flaws, but picking up one game to prove a point is not right. What if Kr terran players are just simply not as good as their Z and P counterparts?? Add that to the fact that most of the top terrans have left the GSL. Ofc you'll have trouble to fill this tournament with terrans if Taeja, Polt, Jjakji, Bomber, MMA, Ryung, Heart, Mvp etc. aren't there to compete. I'm not denying protoss was strong early in the year. And i'm not denying that game design is not as good as it could be. But i seriously think Terran, at least at GM level, is not UP.
Thats what Terran Players said to Zerg players, just the other way around.
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Awsome article, learned so much.
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On June 30 2014 18:54 Pino wrote:
What if Kr terran players are just simply not as good as their Z and P counterparts?? Add that to the fact that most of the top terrans have left the GSL. Ofc you'll have trouble to fill this tournament with terrans if Taeja, Polt, Jjakji, Bomber, MMA, Ryung, Heart, Mvp etc. aren't there to compete.
You didn't read the part about Code S right?
TheDWF clearly stated that just 2 out of 11 Code S Terrans left at the time, when suddenly only 3 Terrans made it to the next season's Code S.
You want to argue that the remaining 6 were suddenly a whole class worse than their Z and P counterparts? All at the same time? Yeah sure, that's a lot more probable than a WM nerf having anything to do with this. 
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Good read, but it feels a bit biased, I guess its for the drama.
Some minor observation. I can't help but wonder why people so reluctant to dismiss minor patch changes (which hugely affect the game) and replace it with "players figured it out". For instance, zergs started fighting on even foot against bio/mine right after overseer buff and people were like, oh "they(zergs) figured it out, see?! no need to balance whine".
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On June 30 2014 19:22 saddaromma wrote:
Good read, but it feels a bit biased, I guess its for the drama.
Some minor observation. I can't help but wonder why people so reluctant to dismiss minor patch changes (which hugely affect the game) and replace it with "players figured it out". For instance, zergs started fighting on even foot against bio/mine right after overseer buff and people were like, oh "they(zergs) figured it out, see?! no need to balance whine".
yes the overseer buff was a good change and noone ever denied that. Yes it helped zergs dealing with biomine. But that just means even more, that the conclusion to then still nerf widow mines massively was just terrible by Blizzard.
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The problem with how people perceive Blizzard's balancing paradigm in SC2 is that they only see the problem when it happens to their own race.
When Blizzard inevitably releases a patch to help Terran out in the future, most Terran players will hail the patch as a long due salvation of their race, and the rest will say how not even that is going to be enough and more was needed - but ultimately everything will be alright in the world of the Terran again.
This limited perspective, stemming from a natural rivalry between players of three different asymmetric factions, covers up the fundamental flaw in how Blizzard handles patching. For most of its lifetime, Starcraft 2 never really improved in balance, no patch ever released made it a more balanced game than it previously was. Blizzard doesn't patch to improve balance, they patch to change it. They repeatedly shift advantages from one race to the other and correct the win rates and participation rates of a race.
They could be doing things this way because it is the easiest way to do things; or because balance patches are actually content that keeps people involved and shifts the metagame from becoming too stale due to previous imbalances; or because they just don't know a better way of doing it; or it is the only way to conceal the weaknesses of a poorly designed game. It is worth noting that this is what they've been doing in World of Warcraft, and recently Hearthstone as well.
In a good game, players should be innovators and problem solvers, and this constant one-upping of players between themselves is what propels the metagame. The ability to do this and emerge on top - more so than just the act of winning a lot of tournaments - is what elevated certain players to legendary or godlike status in other games such as Smash or Brood War.
In Starcraft 2, it's the developer that has to solve problems, balance patches propel the metagame, and the player agency is reduced to merely piloting whatever the developer chooses to give them for any period of time.
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What if Kr terran players are just simply not as good as their Z and P counterparts?? Add that to the fact that most of the top terrans have left the GSL. Ofc you'll have trouble to fill this tournament with terrans if Taeja, Polt, Jjakji, Bomber, MMA, Ryung, Heart, Mvp etc. aren't there to compete.
Well ... Trap 6-0 Polt in recent MLG match says it all.
Trap who constantly drop to Code A player againts 2x WCS America champ. No doubt Trap is still a good korean Protoss, but a struggling code S contender at best. Mind you Polt best matchup is TvP.
Would Taeja win Dreamhack summer if there's a solid Code S/A Protoss player? I doubt it.
With introduction of recent hellbat buff, TvZ is balance enough, but it doesn't affect TvP at all.
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On June 30 2014 19:45 Talin wrote:
The problem with how people perceive Blizzard's balancing paradigm in SC2 is that they only see the problem when it happens to their own race.
When Blizzard inevitably releases a patch to help Terran out in the future, most Terran players will hail the patch as a long due salvation of their race, and the rest will say how not even that is going to be enough and more was needed - but ultimately everything will be alright in the world of the Terran again.
This limited perspective, stemming from a natural rivalry between players of three different asymmetric factions, covers up the fundamental flaw in how Blizzard handles patching. For most of its lifetime, Starcraft 2 never really improved in balance, no patch ever released made it a more balanced game than it previously was. Blizzard doesn't patch to improve balance, they patch to change it. They repeatedly shift advantages from one race to the other and correct the win rates and participation rates of a race.
They could be doing things this way because it is the easiest way to do things; or because balance patches are actually content that keeps people involved and shifts the metagame from becoming too stale due to previous imbalances; or because they just don't know a better way of doing it; or it is the only way to conceal the weaknesses of a poorly designed game. It is worth noting that this is what they've been doing in World of Warcraft, and recently Hearthstone as well.
In a good game, players should be innovators and problem solvers, and this constant one-upping of players between themselves is what propels the metagame. The ability to do this and emerge on top - more so than just the act of winning a lot of tournaments - is what elevated certain players to legendary or godlike status in other games such as Smash or Brood War.
In Starcraft 2, it's the developer that has to solve problems, balance patches propel the metagame, and the player agency is reduced to merely piloting whatever the developer chooses to give them for any period of time.
I disagree. People are more passionate if a change effects their race, but are able to distinguish between useful and useless.
Calling all players unable to attribute changes to the game only shows your skill / understanding level of the game. You can't just say everyone (incl. pro's) are simply too stupid to figure out an allin in TvP that actually works for example...
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I read half of it and i just can't read more. The tone imployed is like a common balance whinner on those forums than a writer perspective.
Sure there is a lot of research behind this but the way it is written is just non enjoyable to read. Maybe because as a low Z player i'm just baffled by the old mine and HBD that could vanish 50supply instantanously. Maybe that's way.
Gratz on your article though. But i just can't read through it cause of the cynical tone 
Of course that is my opinion.
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On June 30 2014 18:51 Shebuha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 17:26 MrTortoise wrote:
It would be ok if terran was stronger vs protoss late game but weak vs zerg. Then it would be a racial weakness thing.
You could then give protoss the nexus cannon and zergs hitting 3-3 would be offset Lemme just say that Ghost Viking heavy army vs Protoss in the lategame is fucking strong. Lategame IS quite challenging and unforgiving for Terran, but it has a lot of potential to unlock... perhaps more than Protoss. I've played quite a few 25-60 minute games vs Terran recently where Terrans are splitting the map with PFs, sensor towers and turrets and it's incredibly hard to deal with. I played my GM teammate a lot in the last month and for the first few games I was able to hide Templars in clever spots around the map and get feedbacks/storms off by surprise and use that to cripple him, but now I CANNOT get a single feedback or storm off as he constantly scans, snipes and EMPs everything. I've actually stopped adding HTs to my Colossus ball because they're actually useless. It's really eye opening. Without transitioning to Tempest/Carrier or committing gigantic amounts of resources to deny his final expansions and going up to like 24+ gateways I feel like it's impossible to win a fight. Some Terrans have even transitioned to BC/Raven/Viking/Ghost and it's very capable of fighting off my air/HT army.
Yeah, at least in WoL PvT, terran was favored after 25 mins. At 30min(or 35min. Can't remember for sure) avarage terran winrate was already close to 60%. Longer the game went, higher win % terran got.
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On June 30 2014 19:51 pichoo wrote:Show nested quote +What if Kr terran players are just simply not as good as their Z and P counterparts?? Add that to the fact that most of the top terrans have left the GSL. Ofc you'll have trouble to fill this tournament with terrans if Taeja, Polt, Jjakji, Bomber, MMA, Ryung, Heart, Mvp etc. aren't there to compete. Well ... Trap 6-0 Polt in recent MLG match says it all. Trap who constantly drop to Code A player againts 2x WCS America champ. No doubt Trap is still a good korean Protoss, but a struggling code S contender at best. Mind you Polt best matchup is TvP. Would Taeja win Dreamhack summer if there's a solid Code S/A Protoss player? I doubt it. With introduction of recent hellbat buff, TvZ is balance enough, but it doesn't affect TvP at all.
"Well ... Trap 6-0 Polt in recent MLG match says it all. "
Last time i checked Polt has been a part time player for almost 2 years, and i would fully expect him to get beat by a full time professional, no matter what race they played
The fact still Polt dominates outside of Korea is a testament to the fact that outside of Korea the standard is not good at all so i really wish people wouldn't use him as an example of balance tbh.
I cant think of any modern sport where a top pro would get beat by an amateur( no matter how talented he is),those days are long gone.
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This balance whine belongs to reddit.
It may raise valid issues in the game, but also it neglects a lot of strong points.
Pretty much, it's all and all a whine post.
Definitely not TL material.
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When TL starts featuring serious balance discussion angled towards a certain race a line has been crossed, and when such lines gets crossed maybe Blizzards take note and starts realizing the gravity of the situation. At least that is what I hope.
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On June 30 2014 19:58 FFW_Rude wrote:I read half of it and i just can't read more. The tone imployed is like a common balance whinner on those forums than a writer perspective. Sure there is a lot of research behind this but the way it is written is just non enjoyable to read. Maybe because as a low Z player i'm just baffled by the old mine and HBD that could vanish 50supply instantanously. Maybe that's way. Gratz on your article though. But i just can't read through it cause of the cynical tone
And Zergs can literally a move through mines. 2 banelings can destroy 50 supply worth of marines easily as well, if you don't split constantly, or take a bad engagement on creep especially, banelings will wreck your day. The WM change was never needed because balance should be decided by the BEST players, which is not your experience or my experience on ladder, but by what's happening at the highest levels of play. The best players had already adapted to it, and still the WM change comes and makes every Terran's life hell.
Last time i checked Polt has been a part time player for almost 2 years, and i would fully expect him to get beat by a full time professional, no matter what race they played
The fact still Polt dominates outside of Korea is a testament to the fact that outside of Korea the standard is not good at all so i really wish people wouldn't use him as an example of balance tbh.
I cant think of any modern sport where a top pro would get beat by an amateur( no matter how talented he is),those days are long gone.
You should check more recently. He's been a full time player for about or more than a year already.
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On June 30 2014 20:03 synd wrote:
This balance whine belongs to reddit.
It may raise valid issues in the game, but also it neglects a lot of strong points.
Pretty much, it's all and all a whine post.
Definitely not TL material.
More blanket statements please. What strong points does it neglect? Posts that contribute absolutely nothing other than TL shouldn't have posted this is annoying. TheDwf posted a super long, researched editorial about the struggles that Terran players goes through, backs it up with research and people can focus only on the fact that he's calling out bad players for being bad.
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Wait, wait, hold up, stop the vehicle... someone is complaining that the race which dominated the SC2 scene for the majority of its lifespan, has always had the most tools and builds at its disposal, and regularly filled 5-7 out of the top 8 slots in GSL seasons enough times that it codified the moniker GomTvTvTvT, is too hard to play now because a couple of the new units added in HotS got nerfed?
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On June 30 2014 19:45 Talin wrote:
The problem with how people perceive Blizzard's balancing paradigm in SC2 is that they only see the problem when it happens to their own race.
When Blizzard inevitably releases a patch to help Terran out in the future, most Terran players will hail the patch as a long due salvation of their race, and the rest will say how not even that is going to be enough and more was needed - but ultimately everything will be alright in the world of the Terran again.
This limited perspective, stemming from a natural rivalry between players of three different asymmetric factions, covers up the fundamental flaw in how Blizzard handles patching. For most of its lifetime, Starcraft 2 never really improved in balance, no patch ever released made it a more balanced game than it previously was. Blizzard doesn't patch to improve balance, they patch to change it. They repeatedly shift advantages from one race to the other and correct the win rates and participation rates of a race.
They could be doing things this way because it is the easiest way to do things; or because balance patches are actually content that keeps people involved and shifts the metagame from becoming too stale due to previous imbalances; or because they just don't know a better way of doing it; or it is the only way to conceal the weaknesses of a poorly designed game. It is worth noting that this is what they've been doing in World of Warcraft, and recently Hearthstone as well.
In a good game, players should be innovators and problem solvers, and this constant one-upping of players between themselves is what propels the metagame. The ability to do this and emerge on top - more so than just the act of winning a lot of tournaments - is what elevated certain players to legendary or godlike status in other games such as Smash or Brood War.
In Starcraft 2, it's the developer that has to solve problems, balance patches propel the metagame, and the player agency is reduced to merely piloting whatever the developer chooses to give them for any period of time.
I disagree overall I think. Balance has been changed over and over, and to the better. But sc2 is so complex that it is hard to just compare one balance issue to another. Oracle proxies are another beast than 3/3 PvZ air, which are different to the balance of the Blink stalker timing attack, which is different to... I think you make this kind of point yourself, that it is assymetrical and impossible to truly compare 1:1 in balance. But there have been balance issues that have been resolved, even though new ones crop up. This is not a bad thing.
As for the BW argument of not patching.... I just don't think the first WoL was all that good. I think it's better if Blizzard intervenes and rebalances the game. I also disagree that it is developers who are leading the charge. Au contraire, I think it is players who innovate and create new metagames that risk breaking the game or making it stale, and thus forces developers to rebalance. The SH stalemate situation is one such example. Blizzard is a reactive, not active, force.
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EPT
